what good, vietnam?

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I think the one good thing that came from the men on the wall is that the american public has felt the shame of their actions in not supporting those men.

Not the cause, I think there will be endless debate over that, but for their public attitude at the time, the hatred that existed for soldiers during the Viet Nam era and destroyed many of those men mentally.

This has led to a resolve among most Americans to support our troops, regardless of their own personal feelings.

Was this worth 58,000 lives? IMO, No
- but it is some small consolation that their sacrifice led to a "we won't do that to our military again".

So, for that I am grateful to our fallen vets, I wish they could have known that someday they would be respected.

What She Said!!!!

and Yeah what You said too JrBogie !!!!

[Edited 7/12/2008 2:45:32 PM]

7/12/2008 7:06:33 AM	what good, vietnam?
jrbogie Cool, CA age: 59	in the political forum, a figure "near and dear" to all of you here it seems, started a thread, well not really asking this question but jumping on his soapbox to rant about vietnam. i had participated on other history based forums, not on fun dating sites like this, where i've learned that historians are now looking at the effects of our efforts in vietnam and korea. i want to emphasize that nothing here is my opinion. though i have done a great deal of reading about vietnam and it's history since my "wake up" day in 1970 when i boarded that continental dc10 at ton tse nuit to come home, i still really can't come to any more intelligent conclusions now nearing sixty than i could as a twenty year old away from home for the first time. according to some very renowned historians, the domino theory now appears to have been valid. by making a stand in korea and vietnam, we hastened the end of the cold war and the demise of the ussr. had vietnam not happened, and had we not hung in there for the 12 years that we did, causing massive soviet funding, the soviets would have been emboldened to even greater expanding communism, especially throughout the pacific rim. when reagan came up with star wars, ridiculous as it was but the soviets didn't know that, they finally threw in the towel. in a sense, we outspent them into military bankruptcy. now we are no longer under the threat of nuclear annialation. MAD, mutually assured destruction, is no longer a global strategy. america is stronger and more influential, regardless of media sound bites saying otherwise, and more able to spread liberty to more people throughout the world than ever before. i doubt the idiots who commanded me and my brothers and sisters in vietnam had any of this in mind but such is war. sometimes stepping on our penis hurts but at least it's been stretched some. Again not my opinion here, but I’d like to think some good came out of the cost of the 58,000 on that wall. wonder what others here think. [Edited 7/12/2008 7:07:44 AM]
7/12/2008 11:31:05 AM	what good, vietnam?
highlandscout Tonasket, WA age: 57	...I do not propose based on the following, tho i do put it out to air in response to or in concert with... some of your airings... lots of puppet strings... generations of planning... and we are peons trying to self-educate into making intelligent decisions contributing towards meaningful actions solving the ever rising critical demands. hard truth tickling probez you scribe... combined with the cold war pushes affecting soviet homeland and soviet import source crop failures, increasing demands for and weakening health services, furthering dissension and formation of powerful incountry groups at major odds with each other (divide and conquer), increasing boldness and demands of other national and business sets the soviets had to contend with... make a hell of a movie... ...from which we might learn in the USA how much we do not save in the long run with outsourcing critical tasks (from manufacture of most american flags to the trillions of dollars of pharmaceuticals and on and on), decreasing home grown skill base, and importing along the historical silk roads pacific rim super freighter route the new container ships potential contaminant carrying home goods and childrens toys at "very affordable prices" while heath services here get stressed and VA heath services budget inadequacies cause failing, flailing, thrashing and rising doubts as to the intentions of our own politicians... ...the powers may all play at "divide and conquer". ...Even as the SE Asian casualties yearn for "reason to be"... so do and ever more so will the Near East casualties, growing daily more numerous and NOW. [Edited 7/12/2008 11:31:48 AM]
7/12/2008 2:38:03 PM	what good, vietnam?
bjk123 Layton, UT age: 51	Quote from jrbogie: [quote Again not my opinion here, but I’d like to think some good came out of the cost of the 58,000 on that wall. wonder what others here think.
7/12/2008 2:42:16 PM	what good, vietnam?
bikerangel3 Middle Village, NY age: 54	Quote from bjk123: Quote from jrbogie: [quote Again not my opinion here, but I’d like to think some good came out of the cost of the 58,000 on that wall. wonder what others here think. I think the one good thing that came from the men on the wall is that the american public has felt the shame of their actions in not supporting those men. Not the cause, I think there will be endless debate over that, but for their public attitude at the time, the hatred that existed for soldiers during the Viet Nam era and destroyed many of those men mentally. This has led to a resolve among most Americans to support our troops, regardless of their own personal feelings. Was this worth 58,000 lives? IMO, No - but it is some small consolation that their sacrifice led to a "we won't do that to our military again". So, for that I am grateful to our fallen vets, I wish they could have known that someday they would be respected.
7/12/2008 3:32:08 PM	what good, vietnam?
navigator2 Bismarck, ND age: 56	Ya, the welcome we got when we came home and set foot on our homeland was puzzling,, I guess the way I dealt with it was the reason I was serving was so they had the right to do just exactly that, I had a life to live,, I moved on and doing exactly that, Blazn from the swamps
7/12/2008 3:44:47 PM	what good, vietnam?
highlandscout Tonasket, WA age: 57	"...I’d like to think some good came out of the cost of the 58,000 on that wall. wonder what others here think." jrbogie ...a 2nd look ...Something happened, 1)either value, family blood, individual lives, thrown to waste or 2)blood was paid for __________?_________. 's o m e g o o d'... fill in the blank. ..Very difficult question. ..What, could I offer their family blood in trade for? ..And for those who said "No! Don't do it!" yet paid the taxes that made it possible, what great value might be extracted in honor of the blood lost, even tho they did not want to sacrifice it? ..I don't think being angry at others qualifies as the "some good" gained from the great loss. .....Earlier i commented... without answering. ..This is a most difficult and personal, as personal as the blood lost, question.
7/12/2008 5:23:06 PM	what good, vietnam?
jimirayclapton Denver, CO age: 49 online now!	I'd like to contribute to this thread. Vietnam was not my war, in that, I wasn't old enough yet to join up while our troops were still over there. I joined in '76 so just missed it. What I'd like to contribute is the perspective of the elementary school-aged kid I was when growing up in San Diego. Some of the things I've read through this thread have brought up memories of civilian attitudes all around me at that time, on an impressionable young man. Growing up in San Diego means you see Navy and Marine recruits and sailors all the time. It's a major military town. When I was about 12 years old, I had a paper route. I delivered the San Diego Union Tribune to my customers in the Ocean Beach neighborhood where I grew up. Right under the flight path of the planes taking off from Lindburgh Field downtown. On Sundays I had to get up real early, around 3:30 a.m. to start folding my Sunday papers and loading them on my bike to get them delivered on time. I had about 120 customers back then and worked hard as a kid. Sundays were the toughest days because the papers were so big and thick. One particular Sunday I was delivering my 2nd or 3rd load of papers down around the corner of Volaire Ave. and Bacon St, when I could see a man walking up the street from the west from the other end of the block. But something about him wasn't right, and I got that hair-standing-out-on-end feeling that I needed to cross to the other side of the street to get away from his approach. So I rode my bike to the opposite side of the street to deliver those houses first instead. I watched as the man approached walking down the sidewalk on the other side of the street from me. I could see him well enough when he got about halfway down the block that he was TOTALLY RED in color. He was wearing denim jeans, no shirt, a leather hat obviously bought in Tijuana, and a cheap little acoustic guitar probably bought at the same time. I could see by his haircut that he was probably a Sailor or Marine. I could also see that he'd been SPRAY PAINTED with RED aerosol spray paint. His skin had sand stuck to it as he'd probably been drunk when it happened and was sleeping on the beach at the time. They painted his clothes and his skin, his hair, his head, face, everything. He walked silently toward the bus stop to catch a bus back to base I'm sure. I really had a weird feeling about that for years and years to come afterward. That was my moment of reckoning, that there was really something wrong with that picture. I remember the sentiment of the public back then. Even my aunt who is about 10 years older than me, and more like a big annoying sister to me, used to say things around me that I never cared for. She used to love to call the sailors "swabbies", "pelican rapers". The Marines were all "jar heads", all sorts of cutesy remarks that she said without even thinking about WHO SHE WAS CALLING NAMES! She and I never did think alike, nor did we get along well as adults for reasons much like this. I joined the Army because because it was somewhere else. Not in San Diego. I wanted to serve my country, but NOT be treated like people in San Diego back then were treating military personnel. Certainly not all the good folks of San Diego took that attitude, but there was a dark side to that area back in the early 70's that most would rather not bring up. Probably doesn't serve any good purpose at this point, other than to remember not to do it again. The troops are not politicians. They are like you and me. It's not a soldiers place to question the politics that created or entered the war. So Civilians need to remember not to blame the soldiers on the field. Go after the ones that send them there, but ALWAYS support the servicemen and women. My $.02 cents [Edited 7/12/2008 5:49:58 PM]
7/12/2008 8:54:41 PM	what good, vietnam?
bjk123 Layton, UT age: 51	Quote from jimirayclapton: I'd like to contribute to this thread. Vietnam was not my war, in that, I wasn't old enough yet to join up while our troops were still over there. I joined in '76 so just missed it. What I'd like to contribute is the perspective of the elementary school-aged kid I was when growing up in San Diego. Some of the things I've read through this thread have brought up memories of civilian attitudes all around me at that time, on an impressionable young man. Growing up in San Diego means you see Navy and Marine recruits and sailors all the time. It's a major military town. When I was about 12 years old, I had a paper route. I delivered the San Diego Union Tribune to my customers in the Ocean Beach neighborhood where I grew up. Right under the flight path of the planes taking off from Lindburgh Field downtown. On Sundays I had to get up real early, around 3:30 a.m. to start folding my Sunday papers and loading them on my bike to get them delivered on time. I had about 120 customers back then and worked hard as a kid. Sundays were the toughest days because the papers were so big and thick. One particular Sunday I was delivering my 2nd or 3rd load of papers down around the corner of Volaire Ave. and Bacon St, when I could see a man walking up the street from the west from the other end of the block. But something about him wasn't right, and I got that hair-standing-out-on-end feeling that I needed to cross to the other side of the street to get away from his approach. So I rode my bike to the opposite side of the street to deliver those houses first instead. I watched as the man approached walking down the sidewalk on the other side of the street from me. I could see him well enough when he got about halfway down the block that he was TOTALLY RED in color. He was wearing denim jeans, no shirt, a leather hat obviously bought in Tijuana, and a cheap little acoustic guitar probably bought at the same time. I could see by his haircut that he was probably a Sailor or Marine. I could also see that he'd been SPRAY PAINTED with RED aerosol spray paint. His skin had sand stuck to it as he'd probably been drunk when it happened and was sleeping on the beach at the time. They painted his clothes and his skin, his hair, his head, face, everything. He walked silently toward the bus stop to catch a bus back to base I'm sure. I really had a weird feeling about that for years and years to come afterward. That was my moment of reckoning, that there was really something wrong with that picture. I remember the sentiment of the public back then. Even my aunt who is about 10 years older than me, and more like a big annoying sister to me, used to say things around me that I never cared for. She used to love to call the sailors "swabbies", "pelican rapers". The Marines were all "jar heads", all sorts of cutesy remarks that she said without even thinking about WHO SHE WAS CALLING NAMES! She and I never did think alike, nor did we get along well as adults for reasons much like this. I joined the Army because because it was somewhere else. Not in San Diego. I wanted to serve my country, but NOT be treated like people in San Diego back then were treating military personnel. Certainly not all the good folks of San Diego took that attitude, but there was a dark side to that area back in the early 70's that most would rather not bring up. Probably doesn't serve any good purpose at this point, other than to remember not to do it again. The troops are not politicians. They are like you and me. It's not a soldiers place to question the politics that created or entered the war. So Civilians need to remember not to blame the soldiers on the field. Go after the ones that send them there, but ALWAYS support the servicemen and women. My $.02 cents Thank you for your post, I agree 100%
7/29/2008 11:29:06 AM	what good, vietnam?
skunkbreath Saint James, MO age: 89	jr, the end does not justify the means,,,assuming that the analysis is correct. 58k listed dead....on the wall, yes...still have homeless V-Vets, and suicides and after war deaths not tracked...could be 100's of thousands...i am always amazed by the numbers of such... war was wrong... sorry for all of it's victims, those who participated, and the innocent victims caught up in the evil of war.
7/29/2008 1:09:34 PM	what good, vietnam?
jrbogie Cool, CA age: 59	Quote from skunkbreath: jr, the end does not justify the means,,,assuming that the analysis is correct. 58k listed dead....on the wall, yes...still have homeless V-Vets, and suicides and after war deaths not tracked...could be 100's of thousands...i am always amazed by the numbers of such... war was wrong... sorry for all of it's victims, those who participated, and the innocent victims caught up in the evil of war. could not agree more robert. as i said in the post, just an observation of some recent historians. not my opinion. i would like to think that the few names that are personally dear to me on that wall did serve to effect some positive result. they are dead afterall. just reaching for some sane reasons in this world wherever they can be found. i think every vietnam vet needs that, hence my post. no intent to justify anything. reading about this did comfort me a little. just thought i'd spread some around. [Edited 7/29/2008 1:10:40 PM]
7/29/2008 2:47:30 PM	what good, vietnam?
rer Kennesaw, GA age: 59	Nothing good about your buddies on the Wall. They can't talk back to you anymore.
7/29/2008 3:58:29 PM	what good, vietnam?
jrbogie Cool, CA age: 59	Quote from rer: Nothing good about your buddies on the Wall. They can't talk back to you anymore. and somehow you don't think i realize that? jeez man.
7/29/2008 4:03:00 PM	what good, vietnam?
rer Kennesaw, GA age: 59	Didn't say you didn't
7/30/2008 2:17:10 AM	what good, vietnam?
eagleeyes7 Fort Myers, FL age: 60	This topic is very controversial, and in retrospect, I have to say that your take is lacking some perspective in "why" we decided to send over a 2.5 million men, and a few women, to a country that had no threat to the US, and was not a "US interest" for business and trade. I made the necessary corrections on length of the "war" for those who aren't informed. The French did the same thing, seeing a weak government, very pliant, seeking recognition and a place in the world, but economically undeveloped. They made a disastrous mistake, as the debacle they endured at Dien Ben Phu is a testimony of the dedication of the few who had power at the time, and the people who followed their lead. Here is some information on the subject that I feel is relevant to any serious discussion on Vietnam. Tan Son Nhut Air Base (1955-1975) was a Republic of Vietnam Air Force Force (VNAF) facility. It is located near the city of Saigon in southern Vietnam. The United States used it as a major base during the Vietnam War (1959-1975), stationing Army, Air Force, Navy, and Marine units there. The APO for Tan Son Nhut Air Base was APO San Francisco, 96307 Tan Son Nhut Airport was built by the French in the 1920s when the French Colonial government of Indochina constructed a small unpaved airport, known as Tan Son Nhut Airfield in the village of Tan Son Nhut to serve as Saigon's commercial airport. Flights to and from France, as well as within Southeast Asia were available prior to World War II. During World War II, the Imperial Japanese Army used Tan Son Nhut as a transport base. When Japan surrendered in August 1945 the French Air Force flew a contingent of 150 troops into Tan Son Nhut. After World War II, Tan Son Nhut served domestic as well as international flights from Saigon. In 1952, the French Air Force moved the 312th Special Mission Squadron to TSN from Nha Trang Air Base, consisting of French Douglas C-47 Skytrains and Beechcraft Model 18s for carrying cargo and military passengers to support French forces. GENERAL STATISTICS Sixty-one (61) percent of the men who were killed in the Vietnam War were twenty-one (21) years of age or younger. The Vietnam War lasted sixteen (16) years (1959 to 1975). The state of West Virginia had the highest death rate, based on a per capita population, with eighty-one (81) percent. The national average was fifty-eight point nine (58.9) percent for every 100,000 males. Only twenty-five (25) percent of the total United States forces serving in Vietnam were draftees as compared to sixty-six (66) percent during World War II. Approximately 2,031 people were missing in action during the Vietnam War. Seven hundred sixty-six (766) were POWs and one hundred fourteen (114) died in captivity. The educational level of the draftees during the Vietnam War brakes down as seventy-nine (79) percent had high school or higher educations. Seventy-six (76) percent of these were from lower middle/working class families. The average age of the soldiers serving during the Vietnam War was nineteen (19). The average age of the soldiers serving during World War II was twenty-six (26). Approximately ninety-seven (97) percent of Vietnam Veterans were honorably discharged. Approximately sixty-six (66) percent of Vietnam Veterans have said that they were proud of the time in service and what they did during the Vietnam War. Approximately eight-seven (87) percent of the general public now hold Vietnam Veterans in high esteem. Vietnam Veterans make up nine point seven (9.7) percent of their generation. 9,087,000 military personnel served on active duty during the Vietnam Era (5 August 1964 through 7 May 1975. 8,744,000 personnel were on active duty during the war (5 August 1964 through 28 March 1973). 3,403,100 (including and additional 514,000 offshore) served in the Southeast Asia Theater which include Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, flight crews based in Thailand, and sailors in adjacent South China Sea waters. 2,594,000 personnel served within the borders of South Vietnam (1 January 1965 to 28 March 1973). Another 50,000 men served in Vietnam between 1960 and 1964. Of the 2.6 million personnel who served within the borders of South Vietnam, 40% to 60% either fought in combat, provided close combat support or were at least fairly regularly exposed to enemy attack. 7,484 women served in Vietnam. 6,250 (approximately 83.5% were nurses). Peak troop strength in Vietnam was 543,482 (30 April 1969). There were 47,359 hostile deaths. There were 10,797 non-hostile deaths. Total of 58,156 (which includes men formerly classified as MIA and Mayaguez casualties). Twenty-seven (27) additional men have died of wounds sustained in the Vietnam War which brings the death total to 58,183. 8 nurses died in Vietnam - one was Killed In Action. 17,539 of the men killed in Vietnam were married. 303,704 personnel were wounded - 153,329 were hospitalized and 150,375 required no hospital care. 88.4% of the men who actually served in Vietnam were Caucasian. 10.6% of the men who actually served in Vietnam were Black. 1% of the men who actually served in Vietnam were of other races. 86.3% of the men who died in Vietnam were Caucasian (includes Hispanics). 12.5% of the men who died in Vietnam were Black. 1.2% of the men who died in Vietnam were of other races. 170,000 Hispanics served in Vietnam. Of that total, 3,070 (5.2% of the total) died there. 34% of the Blacks who enlisted, volunteered for combat duty. Source of the above information, Vietnam Veterans of America, Speakers Bureau Handbook provided by the Public Affairs Committee. With these statistics in mind, and absolutely no gain financially for the US, with no affect on the Soviet Union whatsoever, or Red China, for that matter, we wasted our sons lives for naught but to make a grab for control of an undeveloped country to establish our presence where the French had failed. I see the names on that wall, which I have seen in person, as well as escorted the "moving wall" in Orange County, CA, as a waste of lives with no gain but the satisfaction of a few misguided political power mongers to flex their muscles, and to test the US Military's newest equipment and tactical capabilities. As an Operations and Logistics professional, I have heard many field grade officers say as much among themselves. Semper Fi~ Eagle Out!
7/30/2008 7:40:22 AM	what good, vietnam?
jrbogie Cool, CA age: 59	Quote from eagleeyes7: This topic is very controversial, and in retrospect, I have to say that your take is lacking some perspective in "why" we decided to send over a 2.5 million men, and a few women, to a country that had no threat to the US, and was not a "US interest" for business and trade. I made the necessary corrections on length of the "war" for those who aren't informed. The French did the same thing, seeing a weak government, very pliant, seeking recognition and a place in the world, but economically undeveloped. They made a disastrous mistake, as the debacle they endured at Dien Ben Phu is a testimony of the dedication of the few who had power at the time, and the people who followed their lead. Here is some information on the subject that I feel is relevant to any serious discussion on Vietnam. Tan Son Nhut Air Base (1955-1975) was a Republic of Vietnam Air Force Force (VNAF) facility. It is located near the city of Saigon in southern Vietnam. The United States used it as a major base during the Vietnam War (1959-1975), stationing Army, Air Force, Navy, and Marine units there. The APO for Tan Son Nhut Air Base was APO San Francisco, 96307 Tan Son Nhut Airport was built by the French in the 1920s when the French Colonial government of Indochina constructed a small unpaved airport, known as Tan Son Nhut Airfield in the village of Tan Son Nhut to serve as Saigon's commercial airport. Flights to and from France, as well as within Southeast Asia were available prior to World War II. During World War II, the Imperial Japanese Army used Tan Son Nhut as a transport base. When Japan surrendered in August 1945 the French Air Force flew a contingent of 150 troops into Tan Son Nhut. After World War II, Tan Son Nhut served domestic as well as international flights from Saigon. In 1952, the French Air Force moved the 312th Special Mission Squadron to TSN from Nha Trang Air Base, consisting of French Douglas C-47 Skytrains and Beechcraft Model 18s for carrying cargo and military passengers to support French forces. GENERAL STATISTICS Sixty-one (61) percent of the men who were killed in the Vietnam War were twenty-one (21) years of age or younger. The Vietnam War lasted sixteen (16) years (1959 to 1975). The state of West Virginia had the highest death rate, based on a per capita population, with eighty-one (81) percent. The national average was fifty-eight point nine (58.9) percent for every 100,000 males. Only twenty-five (25) percent of the total United States forces serving in Vietnam were draftees as compared to sixty-six (66) percent during World War II. Approximately 2,031 people were missing in action during the Vietnam War. Seven hundred sixty-six (766) were POWs and one hundred fourteen (114) died in captivity. The educational level of the draftees during the Vietnam War brakes down as seventy-nine (79) percent had high school or higher educations. Seventy-six (76) percent of these were from lower middle/working class families. The average age of the soldiers serving during the Vietnam War was nineteen (19). The average age of the soldiers serving during World War II was twenty-six (26). Approximately ninety-seven (97) percent of Vietnam Veterans were honorably discharged. Approximately sixty-six (66) percent of Vietnam Veterans have said that they were proud of the time in service and what they did during the Vietnam War. Approximately eight-seven (87) percent of the general public now hold Vietnam Veterans in high esteem. Vietnam Veterans make up nine point seven (9.7) percent of their generation. 9,087,000 military personnel served on active duty during the Vietnam Era (5 August 1964 through 7 May 1975. 8,744,000 personnel were on active duty during the war (5 August 1964 through 28 March 1973). 3,403,100 (including and additional 514,000 offshore) served in the Southeast Asia Theater which include Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, flight crews based in Thailand, and sailors in adjacent South China Sea waters. 2,594,000 personnel served within the borders of South Vietnam (1 January 1965 to 28 March 1973). Another 50,000 men served in Vietnam between 1960 and 1964. Of the 2.6 million personnel who served within the borders of South Vietnam, 40% to 60% either fought in combat, provided close combat support or were at least fairly regularly exposed to enemy attack. 7,484 women served in Vietnam. 6,250 (approximately 83.5% were nurses). Peak troop strength in Vietnam was 543,482 (30 April 1969). There were 47,359 hostile deaths. There were 10,797 non-hostile deaths. Total of 58,156 (which includes men formerly classified as MIA and Mayaguez casualties). Twenty-seven (27) additional men have died of wounds sustained in the Vietnam War which brings the death total to 58,183. 8 nurses died in Vietnam - one was Killed In Action. 17,539 of the men killed in Vietnam were married. 303,704 personnel were wounded - 153,329 were hospitalized and 150,375 required no hospital care. 88.4% of the men who actually served in Vietnam were Caucasian. 10.6% of the men who actually served in Vietnam were Black. 1% of the men who actually served in Vietnam were of other races. 86.3% of the men who died in Vietnam were Caucasian (includes Hispanics). 12.5% of the men who died in Vietnam were Black. 1.2% of the men who died in Vietnam were of other races. 170,000 Hispanics served in Vietnam. Of that total, 3,070 (5.2% of the total) died there. 34% of the Blacks who enlisted, volunteered for combat duty. Source of the above information, Vietnam Veterans of America, Speakers Bureau Handbook provided by the Public Affairs Committee. With these statistics in mind, and absolutely no gain financially for the US, with no affect on the Soviet Union whatsoever, or Red China, for that matter, we wasted our sons lives for naught but to make a grab for control of an undeveloped country to establish our presence where the French had failed. I see the names on that wall, which I have seen in person, as well as escorted the "moving wall" in Orange County, CA, as a waste of lives with no gain but the satisfaction of a few misguided political power mongers to flex their muscles, and to test the US Military's newest equipment and tactical capabilities. As an Operations and Logistics professional, I have heard many field grade officers say as much among themselves. Semper Fi~ Eagle Out! just what do you see here as my take? is your reading comprehensions so week that you could not accurately understand these words of mine? according to some very renowned historians, Again not my opinion here, but I’d like to think some good came out of the cost of the 58,000 on that wall. wonder what others here think. as i said in the post, just an observation of some recent historians. not my opinion. you really couldn't give a f**k less what anybody other than yourself writes here can you?

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