R Crumb strikes again

2/28/2013 8:36:09 AM	R Crumb strikes again
asanb Sanbornton, NH 59, joined Jul. 2012	An illustrated version of the Book of Genesis by Robert Crumb has offended the religious sentiments of a group of Christians. The arch homophobes of the Christian Institute do not like the fact that their sex-and-violence ridden “holy book” has been graphically exposed as being ridden with sex and violence. Spokesman Mike Judge said: "It is turning the Bible into titillation. It seems wholly inappropriate for what is essentially God’s rescue plan for mankind. If you are going to publish your own version of the Bible it must be done with a great deal of sensitivity. The Bible is a very important text to many many people and should be treated with the respect it deserves." Er… it is being treated with the respect it deserves, Mikey. "Representing it in your own way is all very well and good but it must be remembered that it is a matter of people’s faith, their religion. Faith is such an important part of people’s lives that one must remember to tread very carefully." What on earth for? If you believe that the Bible is “God’s rescue plan for mankind,” then you have made a mistake. You can’t expect people to tiptoe around your mistake-based sensitivities. http://www.mediawatchwatch.org.uk/2009/10/19/oh-crumbs-comic-genesis-upsets-christian-institute/ Meet singles at DateHookup.dating, we're 100% free! Join now!
2/28/2013 8:37:37 AM	R Crumb strikes again
asanb Sanbornton, NH 59, joined Jul. 2012	The book, which is released this month, carries the warning "adult supervision recommended for minors", and is described as "scandalous satire" by its publishers. It includes graphic illustrations of Bible characters having sexual intercourse, and other scenes depicting naked men and women as well as "gratuitous" depictions of violence. Crumb, the book's author, is most famous for his creation Fritz the Cat, a sexually graphic "underground" comic strip. It was turned into a film that became the first animation to receive an X rating. He has said he does not believe that the Bible is the word of God. "I take it all for myth from start to finish, with probably some faint relation to historical reality." he said. "They're great stories. But for people to take texts as something sacred, handed down from God... that's pretty backward, I think." http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/booknews/6358134/Biblical-sex-row-over-explicit-illustrated-Book-of-Genesis.html
2/28/2013 8:54:39 AM	R Crumb strikes again
woodsmamma Babbitt, MN 61, joined Feb. 2009	Yes a genius IMO! I saw a really good vid about him this summer.biography featuring all his great works. I shall be for ever impressed with the cheap thrills album cover for big brother and the holding company, featuring Janis Joplin! I for one will wanna read the new book that you have mentioned!
2/28/2013 9:00:55 AM	R Crumb strikes again
asanb Sanbornton, NH 59, joined Jul. 2012
2/28/2013 9:05:32 AM	R Crumb strikes again
asanb Sanbornton, NH 59, joined Jul. 2012	review from Susan Gilman, NPR: R. Crumb When I first heard that R. Crumb had illustrated the Book of Genesis, I thought: "Oh. This oughta be good." Crumb, after all, is the godfather of the cartoon counterculture. He's penned such infamous "underground comics," as Zap, Snatch, and Weirdo, and his most recent project was a book titled Robert Crumb's Sex Obsessions. His depiction of the Bible, I assumed, would therefore be the funniest, most subversive, most profane ever. But, to my surprise, The Book of Genesis Illustrated is straight-faced. The illustrator writes in the introduction that he has "faithfully reproduced every word of the original text," and the result is 224 pages of meticulous drawings that situate Genesis in a distinct culture and place. It's a cartoonist's equivalent of the Sistine Chapel, and it's awesome. Crumb has done a real artist's turn here — he's challenged himself and defied all expectation. You'd expect, after all, that in Crumb's Genesis, God would look like Crumb's own iconic creation, Mr. Natural. And he does — but only in that he's an old white man with a long beard. (God creates the world in this excerpt.) Otherwise, this God is a somber, craggy, commanding presence. There's not an Earth shoe or wisecrack in sight. This isn't say to that the illustrations aren't in Crumb's trademark style. Adam and Eve, Abraham and Sarah, and the multitudes of Canaanites, Hittites and Egyptians are a grungy bunch. They've got coarse features, freaky hair and fleshy builds. Everyone here looks like they could use a shave — including some of the women. And, we all know there's sex in the Bible — and Crumb reproduces this, too.
2/28/2013 9:15:26 AM	R Crumb strikes again
jim_a49 Bellevue, WA 65, joined Dec. 2010	As an old Hippie, I was a fan of R. Crumb and Mr Natural, However there was some very desturbing parts of his artthat Ididn't realize untill years later. Mr, Natural was a pedophile, and Crumb obviousally had some warped ideas, to make some of the cartoons and stories he made. it was in the 60s, and the pedophilia thing was not as pronounced as today, and was considered funny, but the repatition of it was a little to mch to be dismissed as him having afunny ides. From one of his main charactore, "Jailbait", to inapropiate sexual activity with the baby, another main charactor. Any old farts among us may remember these comic hippie books.
2/28/2013 9:55:32 AM	R Crumb strikes again
xashax Union, NH 42, joined May. 2009	Good lord! Crumb must have been a bottle baby.
2/28/2013 10:07:51 AM	R Crumb strikes again
a_codger Mountain View, AB 53, joined Aug. 2009	Quote from asanb: (They) do not like the fact that their sex-and-violence ridden “holy book” has been graphically exposed as being ridden with sex and violence. ...it is being treated with the respect it deserves... "I take it all for myth from start to finish, with probably some faint relation to historical reality."
2/28/2013 10:27:01 AM	R Crumb strikes again
xashax Union, NH 42, joined May. 2009	Quote from chrgunter64: This is sick blasphemy. It's actually in the bible. He just illustrated it.
2/28/2013 10:41:06 AM	R Crumb strikes again
xashax Union, NH 42, joined May. 2009	Its clearly a euphemism for sexual intercourse in the Old Testament as is "knowing someone."
2/28/2013 10:50:37 AM	R Crumb strikes again
a_codger Mountain View, AB 53, joined Aug. 2009	Quote from chrgunter64: That's not the way I interpret if. Did you miss this bit? Genesis 19:36 Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father.
2/28/2013 12:19:36 PM	R Crumb strikes again
droog5150 Louisville, KY 58, joined Feb. 2013	Quote from chrgunter64: That's not the way I interpret if. With all due respect, sir, that is EXACTLY what it means: KJV version: 32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. 33 And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. 34 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. 35 And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. 36 Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father. 37 And the first born bare a son, and called his name Moab: the same is the father of the Moabites unto this day. 38 And the younger, she also bare a son, and called his name Benammi: the same is the father of the children of Ammon unto this day. apologies to a codger for utilizing material he began with. Hell, I'll even give you the Revised Standard Version: 36 Thus both the daughters of Lot were with child by their father. How about some New Living Translation?: 36 As a result, both of Lot’s daughters became pregnant by their own father. Clarencec, (or anyone else for that matter) do you remember a particular scene from the movie "A Clockwork Orange"? When the sick rapist murderer Alex was tossed into prison, the only way he could indulge in his violent fantasies was by reading the Old Testament. I can't find the exact quotes, but he considered the NT to be nothing but "preachy talk", but enjoyed the OT for (paraphrased) "old yahoodies going at each other than getting it on with their wive's handmaidens." Anyone also remember good old Samson from the Book of Judges? Judges 16,1: (various versions) KJV: "Then went Samson to Gaza, and saw there a harlot, and went in unto her." New International Version: "One day Samson went to Gaza, where he saw a prostitute. He went in to spend the night with her." Damn fun loving bunch of characters, weren't they? "I know now why you cry. But it's something I can never do." [Edited 2/28/2013 12:20:41 PM ]
2/28/2013 1:54:15 PM	R Crumb strikes again
asanb Sanbornton, NH 59, joined Jul. 2012	JACOB AND RACHEL It says in the Bible that Rachel is very comely to look at. It actually says Rachel was well formed. I'm not very good at drawing attractive women actually. But Rachel has strong qualities that would incline one to suspect that she was some kind of priestess. The household gods were these things belittled as idols by the patriarchal priestly cast who wrote down the stories in the Bible. But Rachel steals an idol from her father's house when they are leaving. These idols found in archaeological digs are almost all entirely female, little female goddess figures, and these things were in the hands of women.
2/28/2013 1:56:42 PM	R Crumb strikes again
asanb Sanbornton, NH 59, joined Jul. 2012	INTERVIEWER Let’s begin with Genesis. Where did this book come from? R. CRUMB Well, the truth is kind of dumb, actually. I did it for the money and I quickly began to regret it. It was an enormous amount of work—four years of work and barely worth it. I was too compulsive about the detail. With comics, you’ve got to develop some kind of shorthand. You can’t make every drawing look like a detailed etching. The average reader actually doesn’t want all that detail, it interferes with the flow of the reading process. But I just can’t help myself—obsessive-compulsive disorder. INTERVIEWER But it does also seem like a labor of love. CRUMB I did try to be respectful. I decided not to make fun of the text, not to put any kind of jokey stuff in there. I was tempted a few times. But I whited it out later because it distracts from the text. The text itself is so compelling that merely illustrating it is enough. But people who believe that the Bible is the word of God, you’re not going to please them. They’ll find faults. The Jews won’t like it because you actually portray God. And the fact that I show people actually having sex, that’s going to eliminate a lot of the Christians. INTERVIEWER You’ve shown how much strangeness is in the story. CRUMB I think that the best public service that it has to offer is that it brings everything out. It illustrates everything equally. Even the strangest stories, stories that don’t make much sense. The Bible was not written for entertainment purposes so it’s a real hodgepodge and a compendium of all kinds of stuff. INTERVIEWER Did you read the comic-book versions of the Bible as a kid? CRUMB I didn’t. I wasn’t interested. In my midteens I went through a brief stage of religious fanaticism but it was very much about just saying prayers and stuff like that, reciting rosaries and spending a lot of time on that kind of Catholic ritual. My brother Charles admired Saint Francis, he’d walk around with stones in his shoes. But soon we started to see through it, my brother and I started questioning the church and it fell apart very quickly for us. INTERVIEWER You wrote in your introduction that you actually stay truer to the words of Genesis than a lot of those comic-book versions. CRUMB In all the comic-book versions I was able to find, they just made up dialogue, pages of it that are not in the Bible. I was reading this one thing and I thought—did I miss this? And I went back and checked against the text and it’s not in there. And they claim to be honoring the word of God, and that the Bible is a sacred text. But they’re just making shit up! If you’re not going to make it up, then the only way is to tell the whole thing. You have to put in every word, and that’s a very cumbersome task that only a fool would take on. INTERVIEWER Genesis is obviously a graphic novel, but the cover is like a fifties comic-book cover. CRUMB It’s a Classics Illustrated! I had to argue with them to let me call it “illustrated.” They wanted to call it The Book of Genesis According to R. Crumb but I preferred “illustrated by.” I wanted a humbler position. It’s an illustration job, OK? Illustration has a bad name in modern culture because for decades artists who were “mere illustrators” were considered inferior to fine artists. Being an illustrator was looked down upon. It meant you were not really a creative person, you just had the technical skills that you were lending to someone else’s ideas. It’s all bullshit though—the fine-art world, the myth of the creative genius artist. I made the drawings nice, and the people who like that kind of thing, the aesthetics, are impressed, but the most significant thing is actually illustrating everything that’s in there. That’s the most significant contribution I made. It brings everything out. Comic books are good for that. Many of the educational experiences I’ve had about important things, I got from comic books. A Japanese artist did a comic book about his childhood growing up in militaristic Japan and about the dropping of the bomb. It’s called Gen of Hiroshima. It’s so powerful and vivid. Also Joe Sacco’s book Palestine and his book about Bosnia, or Spiegelman’s Maus, a powerful story of the Holocaust. Those are some of the strongest revelations of what happened. INTERVIEWER How did you get your hands on the research material for Genesis from a medieval village in Southern France? CRUMB Hey, come on, this is the electronic age! You can get anything, anywhere! A friend got me the DVD of The Ten Commandments and some other biblical epics and he freeze-framed them and he took hundreds of photos. I developed a great respect for Cecil B. DeMille. When you freeze-frame it and look at it closely, every detail is really interesting. You’ve got these donkeys pulling primitive carts with big urns all tied up with ropes, and I used all of that. All the statuary, the rows of the lions as you come out of the city of the pharaoh. It’s beautifully made and all the craft and attention to detail, it was really quite remarkable. INTERVIEWER And did you get history books about the beginnings of Christianity? CRUMB You have to go way back, to the beginning of Mesopotamian civilization, because the stories of Abraham and all that—that’s like 2000 b.c. It’s hard to find Mesopotamian visual imagery that goes that far back. How did people dress? Did they have doors? Did they have a door on hinges, or what? The Bible says, Lot closed the door and wouldn’t let the men come in, but what’s the door made of? INTERVIEWER Was the act of drawing a God figure a challenge? You have had panels in the past where God is speaking to someone. CRUMB Mr. Natural. But I also saw God in a dream in the year 2000. INTERVIEWER What did he look like? CRUMB He had features almost like Mel Gibson or Charlton Heston, very severe but at the same time sort of anguished looking. And he was warning me about something, very briefly, warning me about this destructive force that was getting stronger, and since He loved Earth or this reality or whatever you want to call it, He was enlisting me to be one of the people to protect this reality from this destructive force. When I was trying to figure out how to draw God I remembered that image, which I could look at only for a split second, it was painful to look at this face, it was so severe and yet so anguished. INTERVIEWER Did you give God that face in Genesis? CRUMB I tried to. It doesn’t quite capture it. That was my reference point. All the way through I would go back and rework the face, I kept whiting it out and redoing it, to try and get it right.
2/28/2013 2:54:05 PM	R Crumb strikes again
woodsmamma Babbitt, MN 61, joined Feb. 2009	I am enjoying this thread immensely!
2/28/2013 4:28:17 PM	R Crumb strikes again
thebard58 Hermiston, OR 56, joined Jul. 2010	Clarence Good post. I'll have to check out that reference.
2/28/2013 4:48:59 PM	R Crumb strikes again
furchizedek Kingman, AZ 72, joined Sep. 2010	Quote from chrgunter64: When it says "he lay with" doesn't mean sex. Only a sick perverse person would automatically assume that.
2/28/2013 4:57:45 PM	R Crumb strikes again
furchizedek Kingman, AZ 72, joined Sep. 2010	Thanks very much for this post. I'm going to be sure to get the book when it comes out. I like R. Crumb. His stuff sort of reminds of of the artwork in "The Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers" books, but I don't think he was the artist for that. As a side note, I just got Spong's "Why Christianity Must Change Or Die" the other day. It looks to be a great read. And for asanb, I got my $25 dash cam. I haven't installed it yet but I have had it turned on and working and everything seems to be in order. Oh, I also got my long awaited "Skeptics Annotated Bible" (SAB) in the mail today. That also looks to be a good read and a valuable resource. And it has a list of all of God's murders in the OT and so on, along with other lists too. Quote from asanb: An illustrated version of the Book of Genesis by Robert Crumb has offended the religious sentiments of a group of Christians. The arch homophobes of the Christian Institute do not like the fact that their sex-and-violence ridden “holy book” has been graphically exposed as being ridden with sex and violence. Spokesman Mike Judge said: "It is turning the Bible into titillation. It seems wholly inappropriate for what is essentially God’s rescue plan for mankind. If you are going to publish your own version of the Bible it must be done with a great deal of sensitivity. The Bible is a very important text to many many people and should be treated with the respect it deserves." Er… it is being treated with the respect it deserves, Mikey. "Representing it in your own way is all very well and good but it must be remembered that it is a matter of people’s faith, their religion. Faith is such an important part of people’s lives that one must remember to tread very carefully." What on earth for? If you believe that the Bible is “God’s rescue plan for mankind,” then you have made a mistake. You can’t expect people to tiptoe around your mistake-based sensitivities. http://www.mediawatchwatch.org.uk/2009/10/19/oh-crumbs-comic-genesis-upsets-christian-institute/
2/28/2013 5:18:37 PM	R Crumb strikes again
furchizedek Kingman, AZ 72, joined Sep. 2010	Quote from woodsmamma: I am enjoying this thread immensely! I am too! And thanks to asanb for posting the interview. It's excellent.
2/28/2013 5:24:56 PM	R Crumb strikes again
furchizedek Kingman, AZ 72, joined Sep. 2010	Crumb's hirsute art is much like that of the Freak Brothers. I think this is the one issue I still have:
2/28/2013 5:28:41 PM	R Crumb strikes again
woodsmamma Babbitt, MN 61, joined Feb. 2009	Agreed furch Remember hearing of the heads and feds game featuring the fabulous furry freak. Bros? Went to the full length feature Fritz the cat with my son's father when I was 17. We went to see it in mason city Iowa. All it took was my husband vouching that I was 18 when I conveniantly "forgot" my ID lol!
2/28/2013 5:52:46 PM	R Crumb strikes again
chrisbrz Wilmette, IL 40, joined May. 2011	. Quote from a_codger: Did you miss this bit? Genesis 19:36 Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father. Keep shining the light .
2/28/2013 6:06:30 PM	R Crumb strikes again
_ourself_ Hamilton, ON 42, joined Apr. 2010	Awesome, lmao. It seems incredulous that people would get offended by being shown how what they have been taught is offensive. If it is seen as offensive, Crumb should be thanked for shining a light on it. It isn't like he's making it up, lol. Man, that's funny. I learned something new though... I thought Crumb did the Freak Brothers. And I even had their board game "Dealer McDope" where you had to get a deal card, go to a certain country, make the deal and head to the States to sell it off. Eventually you get to own cities and if anyone lands there they have to give you a percentage of any cash they make selling there. The rate is determined by a roll of the die when they are set to leave. "Dope helps through times of no money better than money helps through times of no dope". Or something like that. I'm using my phone and can't be bothered to google it. If I had to pick an artist of that era and mindset to recreate a religious text I'd go with the Bhagavad Gita done by Rick Griffen. That would be pretty neat.
2/28/2013 6:14:28 PM	R Crumb strikes again
_ourself_ Hamilton, ON 42, joined Apr. 2010	Quote from woodsmamma: Agreed furch Remember hearing of the heads and feds game featuring the fabulous furry freak. Bros? There was another one? How did we miss that? I grew up in the 80's but me and my circle were psychedelic as it gets. Man... Kids these days are lucky to have Google ability.
2/28/2013 6:37:42 PM	R Crumb strikes again
jim_a49 Bellevue, WA 65, joined Dec. 2010	Quote from chrgunter6 That's not the way I interpret if. oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo You can interpret as going fishing if you like, but it really does mean sex.
2/28/2013 7:21:45 PM	R Crumb strikes again
iyamwutiyam Intercourse, PA 46, joined Dec. 2011	Always loved R Crumb And who can forget Mr Natural?
2/28/2013 7:40:43 PM	R Crumb strikes again
woodsmamma Babbitt, MN 61, joined Feb. 2009	Quote from _ourself_: There was another one? How did we miss that? I grew up in the 80's but me and my circle were psychedelic as it gets. Man... Kids these days are lucky to have Google ability. Icant remember what magazine had a centerfold of the game. I glued it to a board and put a heavy poly finish on it and the pieces. Maybe high times magazine? Could have been playboy or hustler?
2/28/2013 8:29:06 PM	R Crumb strikes again
furchizedek Kingman, AZ 72, joined Sep. 2010	Oh, I thought this book was coming out soon. Apparently it's been out since 2009: Same book? Amazon.com Search inside this book Buy Used $14.99 Buy New $19.00 The Book of Genesis Illustrated by R. Crumb [Hardcover] R. Crumb (Author) 4.5 out of 5 stars See all reviews (165 customer reviews) Price: $19.00 & eligible for FREE Super Saver Shipping on orders over $25. Details In Stock. Ships from and sold by Amazon.com. Gift-wrap available.
2/28/2013 8:36:57 PM	R Crumb strikes again
furchizedek Kingman, AZ 72, joined Sep. 2010	Oh, here's where I got that idea: Quote from asanb: The book, which is released this month, carries the warning "adult supervision recommended for minors", and is described as "scandalous satire" by its publishers. asanb, is this a different book coming out, or maybe the paperback edition? Quote from furchizedek: Oh, I thought this book was coming out soon. Apparently it's been out since 2009: Same book? Amazon.com Search inside this book Buy Used $14.99 Buy New $19.00 The Book of Genesis Illustrated by R. Crumb [Hardcover] R. Crumb (Author) 4.5 out of 5 stars See all reviews (165 customer reviews) Price: $19.00 & eligible for FREE Super Saver Shipping on orders over $25. Details In Stock. Ships from and sold by Amazon.com. Gift-wrap available.
2/28/2013 10:30:55 PM	R Crumb strikes again
asanb Sanbornton, NH 59, joined Jul. 2012	There is only one edition that I know of. I just downloaded the whole thing as a PDF from scribd. I have a subscription. Here is something also apropriate for the forum:
2/28/2013 10:42:07 PM	R Crumb strikes again
asanb Sanbornton, NH 59, joined Jul. 2012	Be patient, the graphics are awsome.
3/1/2013 3:56:49 AM	R Crumb strikes again
droog5150 Louisville, KY 58, joined Feb. 2013	Quote from _ourself_: "Dope helps through times of no money better than money helps through times of no dope". Or something like that. I'm using my phone and can't be bothered to google it. . Ourself, I used to have that quote on a black light poster hung in my room as a younger human. It was attributed to Freewheelin' Franklin, one of the Fabulous Furry Freak Bros. I was always big on Fat Freddy's cat, the one that was constantly crapping in the worse places throughout the comic. Like in Fat Freddy's headphones, which Freddy didn't realise until he put them on. "Here's something I would like to remind you two of: our best friend Doug is probably face down in a ditch right now with a meth head butt-f**king his corpse!" "That's highly unlikely."
3/1/2013 7:03:09 AM	R Crumb strikes again
xashax Union, NH 42, joined May. 2009	Quote from a_codger: Did you miss this bit? Genesis 19:36 Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father.
3/1/2013 8:05:11 AM	R Crumb strikes again
asanb Sanbornton, NH 59, joined Jul. 2012	OMG, What do you think it means?
3/1/2013 8:09:25 AM	R Crumb strikes again
asanb Sanbornton, NH 59, joined Jul. 2012	Lot's two daughters seducing their father (1616) painting by Hendrik Goltzius ...
3/1/2013 8:09:48 AM	R Crumb strikes again
xashax Union, NH 42, joined May. 2009	How else would someone become impregnated then? His daughters weren't parthenogenic reptiles you know.
3/1/2013 8:24:38 AM	R Crumb strikes again
asanb Sanbornton, NH 59, joined Jul. 2012	Groth: Did you see a conflict between your wanting to pay homage to certain lurid conventions of comics and transcribing this? Crumb: None at all. [Laughs.] No conflict whatsoever [Groth laughs.] Like if you wanted to illustrate an ancient folktale or a folk song. I did that, I did illustrations of an old Grimm’s Fairy Tale, “Mother Hulda,” and it’s the same thing. It’s full of lurid detail, incredibly, all the Grimm’s Fairy Tales. Besides from the fact that the Bible is considered the word of God — Genesis particularly is full of the most harrowing, lurid goings-on. Chapter 34 is probably the ugliest chapter in the whole book. That’s the one where the sons of Jacob decide they’re gonna kill all the men of Shechem because the prince slept with their sister Dinah. Groth: Yeah, that was a terrifying act of treachery and betrayal. Crumb: Wasn’t it, though? And what’s the moral resolve of that? Jacob scolds them for it and says, “You have made me odious in the eyes of all the people around here, and if they decide to attack us, they could kill us because we are few and they are many.” And the sons say, “What, our sister should be treated like a whre?” And that’s the end of it. [Groth laughs.] So what lesson are we supposed to gain? What’s the moral inspiration? What is God telling us there, if it’s the word of God? Groth: Have you come to a conclusion? Have you resolved that yourself? Crumb: It’s like, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. It’s obvious from the resolve that it’s not the word of God, it’s some ancient crazy f*kin’ tribal shit [laughter]: some guys defending their sister’s honor. Groth: I was quite taken aback by that. Crumb: I think that when modern religious people read the Bible for inspiration, they just pass over stuff like that. I read a lot of commentary about Genesis. In the Jewish Publication Society version it’s full of commentaries from different scholars over centuries. And like the story of Abraham telling his wife Sarah to tell the pharaoh that she’s his sister. The explanations by these scholars who are also religious believers, trying to give that story some moral justification, just bending over backwards trying to figure out what God meant to tell us in that story or what the real meaning of that is. Because it has to — it’s the Bible; it has to have a higher moral purpose, right? When in fact it doesn’t: How ’bout it? So I would say in that way, by literally illustrating all of that stuff, there is a slightly subversive quality to it. As you say, secular interpretation. It’s slightly subversive to show a story like that, illustrate it, literally show it. What it’s really about. And it’s very hard to give any moral rationale to a story like that. And then in my commentary in the back of the book I bring up Savina Teubal, this Israeli woman writer, and her explanation for those stories, for the “she’s my sister” routine, and how her reasons make much more cogent sense than any of the previous explanations that I’ve come across, and she wrote this stuff in the 1980s. It’s probably the first time anyone has ever examined that stuff from that matrilineal, matriarchal angle. I think she’s probably right about it. Groth: Obviously the matrilineal angle interested you quite a bit. How much research did you do prior to finding her book, Sarah the Priestess? Crumb: Well, I’d read a lot. And then there’s this woman in Oregon, this really interesting woman — Kelpie Wilson is her name — I told her I was working on Genesis, and she’s like this really strong feminist woman, and she sent me Savina Teubal’s book, and said, “You should read this.” And I read that thing and it really excited me. I was shaking when I read that book. It was so incredible what she reveals. I was turning the pages, reading as fast as I could the first time I read it, and I went back and read it over again two or three times. She really did her homework. For what it’s worth, as far as the Bible’s concerned, it’s really significant what she comes up with. I haven’t spent a lifetime studying the Bible so I’m not a Bible scholar or anything, but on the other hand, some of the stuff I’ve read, the scholarly stuff … If people basically start from the point of believing it’s the word of God, then right away I think they’re very hampered and crippled from examining the text in a disinterested way and analyzing it correctly. It’s a big handicap to start from that premise, that it’s the word of God. Because then you have to constantly rationalize: “What does God mean here? What is God trying to tell us?” That’s just ridiculous.
3/1/2013 8:32:54 AM	R Crumb strikes again
asanb Sanbornton, NH 59, joined Jul. 2012	Groth: When you say you’re a non-believer, does that mean you’re an agnostic or an atheist, or what? Crumb: I’m a Gnostic. Groth: A Gnostic. Crumb: Yeah. I told a lot of reporters that I was a Gnostic and they’d never heard of it, so they’d write, “Crumb says he’s an agnostic.” [Groth laughs.] I’m not an agnostic, I’m a Gnostic. But that’s only a loose definition. I’m sure there’re official Gnostics out there who’d say, “You’re not a real Gnostic! You’re just throwing that word around!” And that’s true, I am. I’m sure there’s some very specific definition of a Gnostic, but my rough, crude definition of a Gnostic is someone who’s interested in the idea of higher spiritual existence or being or reality — a greater reality that you could call divine, you could call it God, you can call it the great spirit, all-that-is, whatever you want. But I’m interested in that, and I spend time studying that and seeking that, and seeking communication with it, a connection with it: the higher reality. So I call that Gnosticism. Groth: Gnosticism indicates that you do believe in a god or gods. Crumb: A god? Groth: A god or gods, yeah. Crumb: Well, look at it this way. Would you agree that we live in a reality that’s a unified field? Groth: [Pause.] Sure. I’ll go that far. Crumb: Everything’s interconnected, right? Every time you breathe you affect the universe. Groth: That’s right. Crumb: So if it’s all a unified field, it’s all one. And that means that we are all part of some giant entity, some kind of organism, whatever you want to call it, and it’s huge and vast, and beyond our comprehension because we can’t know what’s going on everywhere all the time. We can’t. We can’t even know what’s going on in the house next door let alone out there in the billions of stars and planets. So it’s bigger than we can possibly, in our little limited human existence, understand fully. But at the same time, something in us wants to know, something has a desire for knowledge. That’s where “gnosis” actually comes from, “knowledge.” So it’s seeking after that knowledge that’s interesting. We all have some interest in that, but we get stuck in dogmatic, doctrinal thinking, which makes us feel secure. It’s like building a wall around yourself, against the unknown, you know? And people feel secure inside that wall. It’s familiar, always the same. And then of course, you’ve got people who take advantage of that fear of the unknown to put themselves in positions of power. Something like the Catholic church, or any priesthood, or political entities, corporate entities that will use some kind of fixed beliefs to try to control people. I grew up in the Catholic Church, so I know what that’s all about. So that’s a lot of what’s happened to something like the Bible. A long time ago they started using that text as a way to clobber people over the head with these narrow, fixed beliefs. Since the time it was written down and turned into a sacred scroll, and became the raison d’être of the Hebrew people.
3/1/2013 9:12:19 AM	R Crumb strikes again
jim_a49 Bellevue, WA 65, joined Dec. 2010	Quote from chrgunter64: Laying down by their father doesn't mean intercourse. You might want to actually learn something about your religion if you are going to talk about it. of course whenthey were laying down, they could have been sleeping and the sex was doggie style.
3/1/2013 9:20:39 AM	R Crumb strikes again
sail_dancer Saint Petersburg, FL 67, joined Apr. 2010	Quote from chrgunter64: Laying down by their father doesn't mean intercourse. ........................................ Are you really that stupid ..... or ..... are you pulling our legs? Peace
3/1/2013 9:27:39 AM	R Crumb strikes again
asanb Sanbornton, NH 59, joined Jul. 2012	Quote from chrgunter64: You guys are simply trying to turn the bible into a book of sadistic perversion. I don't buy it I'm sorry. Have you read the Bible? it isnt that anyone, including the illustrator, has added anything recently that make the bible perverse, sexual and violent. It is. and nobody on this forum can make it more or less so.
3/1/2013 9:43:16 AM	R Crumb strikes again
sail_dancer Saint Petersburg, FL 67, joined Apr. 2010	Quote from chrgunter64: You are purposely twisting its words to meet your own personal agenda and perversion. I can take any sentence you type and make it perverted if I wanted to. Face it! ..... You are in denial of what the bible actually says. Peace
3/1/2013 9:44:15 AM	R Crumb strikes again
jim_a49 Bellevue, WA 65, joined Dec. 2010	Quote from chrgunter64: You guys are simply trying to turn the bible into a book of sadistic perversion. I don't buy it I'm sorry. I believe it was turned into satanic peversion long befor any of us were born. Can;t blame us.
3/1/2013 10:32:04 AM	R Crumb strikes again
thebard58 Hermiston, OR 56, joined Jul. 2010	chrgunter64 Sorry friend, but your are wrong about the story of Lot and his daughters. It was obviously an account of incest. In fact, the thought arises that the part about Lot being too intoxicated to realize what he was doing, might even have been simply an excuse for the act occurring, since it is strictly forbidden by Judaic code. (Personally, if I was too drunk to be aware of who I was having sex with, I would be too drunk to perform the act. The operative point would be, rather, that I might be too drunk to care). Nobody could possibly know the truth about that, excepting Lot, the daughters, and God. [Edited 3/1/2013 10:32:43 AM ]
3/1/2013 10:35:40 AM	R Crumb strikes again
asanb Sanbornton, NH 59, joined Jul. 2012	Crumb:" I think that when modern religious people read the Bible for inspiration, they just pass over stuff like that. I read a lot of commentary about Genesis. In the Jewish Publication Society version it’s full of commentaries from different scholars over centuries. And like the story of Abraham telling his wife Sarah to tell the pharaoh that she’s his sister. The explanations by these scholars who are also religious believers, trying to give that story some moral justification, just bending over backwards trying to figure out what God meant to tell us in that story or what the real meaning of that is. Because it has to — it’s the Bible; it has to have a higher moral purpose, right? When in fact it doesn’t." "we get stuck in dogmatic, doctrinal thinking, which makes us feel secure. It’s like building a wall around yourself, against the unknown, you know? And people feel secure inside that wall. It’s familiar, always the same. And then of course, you’ve got people who take advantage of that fear of the unknown to put themselves in positions of power. Something like the Catholic church, or any priesthood, or political entities, corporate entities that will use some kind of fixed beliefs to try to control people. I grew up in the Catholic Church, so I know what that’s all about. So that’s a lot of what’s happened to something like the Bible. A long time ago they started using that text as a way to clobber people over the head with these narrow, fixed beliefs."
3/1/2013 10:43:04 AM	R Crumb strikes again
woodsmamma Babbitt, MN 61, joined Feb. 2009	Quote from chrgunter64: You guys are simply trying to turn the bible into a book of sadistic perversion. I don't buy it I'm sorry. I'm sorry too, about nagging but you need to do your homework! How many times do I have to mention this? I think you are really having a hard time facing the reality Of this religion!
3/1/2013 10:45:57 AM	R Crumb strikes again
thebard58 Hermiston, OR 56, joined Jul. 2010	Mr. Crumb might have a bit of a twisted viewpoint, but his artistry is renowned for satire, after all. And the bible is, in fact, full of sex and violence. (There is a quote, somewhere, about how the bible is one of the most interesting books ever published. It has violence, sex, romance, altruism, etc. - something for everybody) Mr. Crumb's explanation of his work, and comments, in the interview seemed to be rather reasonable IMO. The only criticism I might make, personally, is that I do not really approve of graphic violence, or pornographic images. But, in our (IMO) rather sic society, this is what sells. I do rather hope that this is not the version Clarence is using for study, though. [Edited 3/1/2013 10:46:15 AM ]
3/1/2013 10:55:56 AM	R Crumb strikes again
thebard58 Hermiston, OR 56, joined Jul. 2010	I don't see how anyone can say that there is no moral to the story, though. I find two obvious ones. 1. Do not become too intoxicated. (Jesus spoke about that as well). 2. Don't raise your daughters to be sluts.
3/1/2013 11:02:19 AM	R Crumb strikes again
xashax Union, NH 42, joined May. 2009	Bard they weren't being "sluts" as per the storyline. It was necessary in order to reestablish the population. The narrative itself is fictitious although some fundamentalists will take it literally.
3/1/2013 11:30:40 AM	R Crumb strikes again
iyamwutiyam Intercourse, PA 46, joined Dec. 2011	What makes a woman a slut? What about male sluts? Given the known psychological problems of sex in the religious, it renders them unqualified to provide definitions.
3/1/2013 11:48:23 AM	R Crumb strikes again
xashax Union, NH 42, joined May. 2009	Well generally it will translate to a promiscuous male or female in a western sociological context but we must also bear in mind that courtship etiquette and rituals are regionally specific and governed by internal indoctrination. Often men will just go out of their way to accuse attractive women of this behavior when in fact they actually wish this to be the case so that they may actually stand a chance. [Edited 3/1/2013 11:49:46 AM ]
3/1/2013 12:05:54 PM	R Crumb strikes again
jim_a49 Bellevue, WA 65, joined Dec. 2010	Quote from iyamwutiyam: What makes a woman a slut? What about male sluts? Given the known psychological problems of sex in the religious, it renders them unqualified to provide definitions. Ya know the difference between a btch and a slut. A slut has sex with everyone.. A btch is a slut that has sex with everyone but me.
3/1/2013 12:08:04 PM	R Crumb strikes again
thebard58 Hermiston, OR 56, joined Jul. 2010	Quote from xashax: Well generally it will translate to a promiscuous male or female in a western sociological context but we must also bear in mind that courtship etiquette and rituals are regionally specific and governed by internal indoctrination. Often men will just go out of their way to accuse attractive women of this behavior when in fact they actually wish this to be the case so that they may actually stand a chance. Good analysis, Asha Had to edit. Apparently you've taken up Clarence's "white font" habit. [Edited 3/1/2013 12:09:15 PM ]
3/1/2013 12:12:12 PM	R Crumb strikes again
iyamwutiyam Intercourse, PA 46, joined Dec. 2011	Quote from xashax: Often men will just go out of their way to accuse attractive women of this behavior when in fact they actually wish this to be the case so that they may actually stand a chance. It's usually inadequate men who accuse women especially when her attention goes to another man.
3/1/2013 12:12:57 PM	R Crumb strikes again
xashax Union, NH 42, joined May. 2009	@Bard No, I only do it on occasion when he invariably does it on every post and we have shown you how to correct it numerous times now. [Edited 3/1/2013 12:13:14 PM ]
3/1/2013 12:14:58 PM	R Crumb strikes again
xashax Union, NH 42, joined May. 2009	Quote from iyamwutiyam: It's usually inadequate men who accuse women especially when her attention goes to another man. Yes sometimes thats the case. Sometimes it's just done out of frustration and it isn't as if women never begin unflattering rumors about males at times also.
3/1/2013 12:27:12 PM	R Crumb strikes again
thebard58 Hermiston, OR 56, joined Jul. 2010	Yes. Thank you. I do know how to correct it now. It's just rather annoying, since normally you can just "quote", without having to edit the quote itself. And the only reason I can see for using the "white font" code, is either so that the uninitiated can not make a visible post, or for sheer vanity. The 1st would be unfair and downright rude. The 2nd is just an unnecessary annoyance.
3/1/2013 12:33:50 PM	R Crumb strikes again
xashax Union, NH 42, joined May. 2009	Quote from thebard58: Yes. Thank you. I do know how to correct it now. It's just rather annoying, since normally you can just "quote", without having to edit the quote itself. Well you would need to take that up with him and not me however. I rarely use it. And the only reason I can see for using the "white font" code, is either so that the uninitiated can not make a visible post, or for sheer vanity. The actual reason that I personally use it is because I dislike the look of the edit mark which is terribly large and obtrusive on DH for whatever reason. Nothing to do with "vanity". The 1st would be unfair and downright rude. Once again you would need to address this with Clarence however the fact that we have both in fact shown you how to correct it would seem to ameliorate this accusation. The 2nd is just an unnecessary annoyance. Once again, take this up with Clarence. It personally does not bother or hinder me in the slightest since I know how to correct it and I often quote Clarence so if should have annoyed me by now clearly.
3/1/2013 1:25:08 PM	R Crumb strikes again
thebard58 Hermiston, OR 56, joined Jul. 2010	asha OK. I will admit that the "edited" note is rather unsightly (and also unnecessary, really). Wasn't really trying to get on your case. Sorry if I offended you. I have not forgotten that you were the one who taught me how to use the HTML codes to be able to do partial quotes and such.
3/1/2013 1:27:32 PM	R Crumb strikes again
xashax Union, NH 42, joined May. 2009	No problem. I know it can be a nuisance but so is that damn edit scar. I wonder if the new admin would be willing to reduce it in size if we asked nicely? It has to be there but the font shouldn't be larger than the actual type used to write the post.

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