Sheol,Hades,Hell

3/2/2016 5:30:47 PM	Sheol,Hades,Hell
rtay Port Saint Lucie, FL 65, joined Aug. 2010	by W. Edward Bedore, Th.D. There seems to be some confusion about the meaning of Hell and who goes there because of the way the Hebrew word Sheol and the Greek word Hades have been translated in our English Bibles. Since this confusion has led some into an erroneous understanding of what the Bible actually teaches about the intermediate state and the final state of the dead, we think that it is important that we address this subject here. Sheol is found in the Bible sixty-five times. It is translated “the pit” three times, “the grave” thirty-one times, and “hell” thirty-one times. Hades is used eleven times, being rendered “hell” ten times and “grave” once. Adding to the confusion is that two other words are also translated hell in the New Testament. These are Tartarus, which is found once and Gehenna, which is used twelve times. The term “Hell” is commonly understood to mean a place of torment where the souls of the wicked go after physical death. This is true. However, because Hades in the New Testament and Sheol in the Old are variously rendered hell or grave, there has been some misunderstanding about what hell and the grave are. Before looking at these words though, we should first give our attention to the Greek word Gehenna, which is always translated hell and used in reference to the Lake of Fire. It is found in Matthew 5:22,29,30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15,33; Mark 9:43,45,47; Luke 12:5; and James 3:6. Hades is the New Testament equivalent of the Old Testament word Sheol. The Greek and Hebrew words speak of the same place, the present Hell. However, this is problematic because Sheol has been translated “grave” as often as it has “hell” and some have mistakenly taught that Sheol and Hades are only references to the grave rather than Hell. This erroneous teaching leads to the denial of the existence of an immediate or present Hell. The false doctrine of soul-sleep, and other ideas that teach the unconscious state of the dead between death and resurrection, spring from this error. The common word for “grave” in the Old Testament is queber. Of the sixty-four times it is used, it is translated “grave” thirty-four times, “sepulcher” twenty-six times, and “burying place” four times. Queber is used five additional times as part of a place name, Kibroth-hattaavah, which means “graves of lust.” As we said earlier, Sheol is found sixty-four times, being rendered “grave” thirty-one times, “hell” thirty-one times, and “pit” three times. the dead between death and resurrection, spring from this error. of the dead between death and resurrection, spring from this error. A comparison of how Sheol and queber are used reveals eight points of contrast that tell us that they are not the same thing. Sheol is never used in plural form. Queber is used in the plural 29 times. It is never said that the body goes to Sheol. Queber speaks of the body going there 37 times. Sheol is never said to be located on the face of the earth. Queber is mentioned 32 times as being located on the earth. An individual’s Sheol is never mentioned. An individual’s queber is mentioned 5 times. Man is never said to put anyone into Sheol. Individuals are put into a queber by man (33 times). Man is never said to have dug or fashioned a Sheol. Man is said to have dug, or fashioned, a queber (6 times). Man is never said to have touched Sheol. Man touches, or can touch, a queber (5 times). It is never said that man is able to possess a Sheol. Man is spoken of as being able to possess a queber (7 times). (These eight points of comparison are adapted from “Life and Death” by Caleb J. Baker, Bible Institute Colportage Ass’n, 1941). From the differences between how Sheol and queber are used in Scripture, it is obvious that they are not the same thing. The Greek word Hades in the New Testament would fit into the Sheol column of our chart, strongly indicating that it is the same thing as Sheol. Hades is used eleven times, being rendered Hell ten times and grave once. Words associated with queber are quabar and qeburah. Quabar is a verb meaning to bury or to be buried and qeburah is a noun meaning a grave or place of burial. The use of these related words helps to reinforce the difference between queber and Sheol, as they clearly have to do with the grave as a burial place, while Sheol does not. After Jacob died, Joseph had his body mummified, a process that took forty days, then took him back to Canaan for burial (Gen. 50:1-14). When we add to that the thirty days of mourning (Gen. 50:2-4), and the time it took to travel to Canaan for the funeral (Gen. 50:5-13), we see that it was several weeks after Jacob was “gathered unto his people” (Gen. 49:33) before his body was placed in the cave that served as his burial place. Considering that he had been dead for well over two months before his body was buried and that the Scriptures state that at the time he died he was “gathered to his people” (Gen. 49:33) is telling. This shows that at the time of physical death, when “he yielded up the spirit,” his soul immediately departed his body to be with Isaac and Abraham. This cannot be a reference to his body being gathered together with their bodies, as that did not take place for over ten weeks. This is strong proof that Sheol does not mean a burial place for the body, but is the place where the souls of the departed reside. . In the case of Samuel and Saul, we find another example of the Scriptures making a distinction between Sheol/Hades and the grave. In his conversation with King Saul, Samuel, whom the Lord had sent back from the dead to deliver a message to Saul, said that Saul and his sons would be with him the next day (see I Sam. 28:15-19). As foretold, Saul and his sons did die the next day while in battle with the Philistines (see I Sam. 31:1-6). However, their bodies were not buried the next day, so they did not join Samuel in the grave but their souls went down to Sheol/Hades where the person, or soul, of Samuel was. As it is said that Samuel “came up” it seems obvious that he went back down after speaking with Saul (I Sam. 28:8,11,14). As for the bodies of Saul and his sons, their remains were not buried for several days. As Samuel had said, they died the next day (I Sam. 31:1-6). But it was the day after they died that their bodies were taken by the Philistines and hung on the wall of Beth-Shan (I Sam. 31:7-10). After hearing of this, valiant men from Jabesh-Gilead went by night and removed their bodies, took them to Jabesh, burned them, and then buried their bones. All this took place at least three days after Saul had died, and probably longer. Saul and his sons joined Samuel in Sheol/Hades the day they died and the flesh of their bodies was burned with only their bones being placed in a grave several days later. Obviously Sheol/Hades and the grave are not the same thing, nor are they in the same place. part 1 Meet singles at DateHookup.dating, we're 100% free! Join now!
3/2/2016 5:38:13 PM	Sheol,Hades,Hell
rtay Port Saint Lucie, FL 65, joined Aug. 2010	part 2 Death and Sheol/Hades are linked together at least thirty-three times in the Scriptures. In these, we see a general distinction between the “outward man,” which is the body and the “inward man,” which is the soul (cf. II Cor. 4:16). In this sense, death, or the grave, claims the physical part of man, the body, while Sheol/Hades claims the separated, spiritual part of man, the soul. This is exactly the meaning of Psalm 16:10: “For Thou wilt not leave my soul in Hell (Sheol); neither will Thou suffer Thine Holy One to see corruption.” In his Pentecostal address, Peter left no room for doubt that this was a prophetic pronouncement concerning the time between the Lord Jesus Christ’s death on the Cross and His resurrection. First, he quoted Psalm 16:8-11 (Acts 2:25-28) and then made direct application of verse 10 to Christ (Acts 2:31). Not only was the Lord Jesus’ soul not left in Sheol/Hades, but neither was His body left to rot in the grave. That Peter used Hades, the place of Sheol, in this quotation shows that they are identical in meaning. Of course, the Lord Jesus Christ is exceptional because He had the power not only to lay down His life on our behalf, but also to take it up again (Jn. 10:17,18). This is not so of any other man, as the Psalmist points out when he asks, rhetorically, “What man is he that liveth and shall not see death? Shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave (Sheol)?” (Ps. 89:48). Because of the curse of sin, all of mankind faces the reality of physical death. None can evade it by their own power, nor can any man or woman escape from Sheol/Hades on their own. We know that since the Cross the souls of those who die “in Christ” do not go to Sheol/Hades, but to heaven. However, this is through the merit of Jesus Christ and His power, not their own. For those “in Christ,” death has no sting and Sheol/Hades has no victory because their body and soul will be united in a resurrection unto life (see I Cor. 15:19,20,51-57). This is as certain as the fact of Jesus Christ’s resurrection. This is not so for those who die without Christ for they face a resurrection unto judgment, which is referred to as the “second death” (Rev. 20:13,14; 21:8). Psalm 89:48 speaks of the time when the soul is separated from the body. The body is given over to death where it will decay, while the soul is assigned to Sheol/Hades to await the final judgment. It is clear that the body and soul of the lost will be reunited at the time of the Great White Throne Judgment of the unsaved dead, when “death and Hades” will deliver up the dead that are in them. That is, their bodies will be raised from the grave, or death, and reunited with the soul, which will come out of Sheol/Hades to be judged by Jesus Christ at the Great White Throne (see Rev. 20:11-15; cf. Jn. 5:28,29). When the Lord Jesus said that “as Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth” (Mat. 12:40), He was saying that He would spend the time between His death and resurrection in Sheol/Hades. We know from Psalm 16:10 and Acts 2:25-32 that the Lord’s soul, which was made an offering for sin (Isa. 53:10), was in Sheol/Hades, and we know from Matthew 12:40 that He was in the heart of the earth, which is where we believe that Sheol/Hades is located. The Apostle Peter used the word Tartarus in reference to “the angels that sinned” that God delivered to Sheol/Hades to await judgment (II Pet. 2:4). This word, which is translated “hell” in the KJV, was used in Greek mythology to refer to the place of punishment for the most wicked. It is not clear if Peter was using this word in reference to Sheol/Hades in a general way or if he was referring to a specific compartment of Sheol/Hades where a certain class of fallen angels are confined awaiting final judgment. Either way, this passage teaches that there is a place of confinement in which a particular group of beings are being held until the time of their judgment. This is consistent with the overall Biblical teaching about the existence and purpose of Sheol/Hades. PARADISEWhile Paradise is not now a part of Sheol/Hades it will be mentioned here because it was located in Sheol/Hades at one time. Before the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ everybody who died went to Sheol/Hades, which was at that time divided into at least two compartments. One was a place of torment while the other was a place of blessing, which was referred to as Abraham’s Bosom (Lk. 16:22-25). As we mentioned before, Tartarus may be a specific place in Sheol/Hades. We know that Jesus Christ went “into the lower parts of the earth” (Eph. 4:9), that is to Sheol/Hades, “in the heart of the earth,” for three days and nights while his body was in the grave (Mat. 12:40). The Lord Jesus told the repentant thief that he would join Him in Paradise that same day (Lk. 23:42,43). This tells us that Paradise was located in Sheol/Hades at that time. We believe that this was the same place referred to as Abraham’s Bosom in Luke 16. However, after Jesus Christ rose from the dead He ascended to the Father, taking the saints who were in Abraham’s Bosom to heaven with Him. Thus, He took “captivity captive” (see Eph. 4:8-10). That Paradise was moved to heaven is confirmed to us by the Apostle Paul who speaks of a man who was “caught up into Paradise” where he “heard unspeakable words” (II Cor. 12:3,4). With Jesus Christ’s work complete, the believers who had been confined to Sheol/Hades were now taken to Heaven to wait in God’s presence until the time of their resurrection to enter His Kingdom on Earth. Since that time, at death all believers go to Paradise in Heaven to await the time of their resurrection. This is true whether they belong to the Kingdom Church of the future or the Body of Christ Church of the present Dispensation of Grace.
3/2/2016 6:24:37 PM	Sheol,Hades,Hell
Equalizer21 Seattle, WA 53, joined Oct. 2014	Bump. Will read later.
3/2/2016 10:40:17 PM	Sheol,Hades,Hell
isna_la_wica Brantford, ON 61, joined Mar. 2012	Good stuff !
3/3/2016 12:24:43 AM	Sheol,Hades,Hell
bigd9832 Chicago, IL 63, joined Oct. 2007	Quote from rtay: There seems to be some confusion about the meaning of Hell Of course there is. "hell" is an invention of the catholic church and has been developed by them. Quote from rtay: Since this confusion has led some into an erroneous understanding of what the Bible actually teaches about the intermediate state and the final state of the dead, CLV Re 20:14 And death and the unseen were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death--the lake of fire. If "hell" is destroyed in the lake of fire how can it be eternal? Quote from rtay: we think that it is important that we address this subject here. Who is "we"? Quote from rtay: Sheol is found in the Bible sixty-five times. It is translated “the pit” three times, “the grave” thirty-one times, and “hell” thirty-one times. To be clear, you are talking about the KJV, which is one of many English versions. Most English versions today do not use the word "hell." Quote from rtay: The term “Hell” is commonly understood to mean a place of torment where the souls of the wicked go after physical death. This is true. How can this be true if there is no Ancient word for the word "hell" to come from? The word "hell" does not appear in the OT nor the NT until about the 10th century. That's about 1000 years after Jesus was here. Quote from rtay: However, because Hades in the New Testament and Sheol in the Old are variously rendered hell or grave, there has been some misunderstanding about what hell and the grave are. As I said before, this confusion is based on the KJV. Most English version so not use the term "hell" so this "confusion" has been eliminated. Quote from rtay: This erroneous teaching leads to the denial of the existence of an immediate or present Hell. The false doctrine of soul-sleep, and other ideas that teach the unconscious state of the dead between death and resurrection, spring from this error. CLV Jn 11:11 He said these things, and after this He is saying to them, "Lazarus, our friend, has found repose, but I am going that I should be awakening him out of sleep." 12 The disciples, then, said to Him, "Lord, if he has repose, he shall be saved." 13 Now Jesus had made a declaration concerning his death, yet they suppose that He is saying it concerning the repose of sleep. 14 Jesus, then, said to them with boldness then, "Lazarus died." Jesus spoke of "soul-sleep." As did Paul.
3/3/2016 12:42:38 AM	Sheol,Hades,Hell
bigd9832 Chicago, IL 63, joined Oct. 2007	Quote from rtay: Death and Sheol/Hades are linked together at least thirty-three times in the Scriptures. Yes, this is true. Soul is the figurative place where the soul goes after death. That is... All Souls. CLV Ezk 18:4 Lo, all the souls are Mine, As the soul of the father, So also the soul of the son--they are Mine, The soul that is sinning--it does die. Actually most of what is here has been interpreted from the Scriptures. Quote from rtay: Psalm 89:48 speaks of the time when the soul is separated from the body. The body is given over to death where it will decay, while the soul is assigned to Sheol/Hades to await the final judgment. It is clear that the body and soul of the lost will be reunited at the time of the Great White Throne Judgment of the unsaved dead, when “death and Hades” will deliver up the dead that are in them. That is, their bodies will be raised from the grave, or death, and reunited with the soul, which will come out of Sheol/Hades to be judged by Jesus Christ at the Great White Throne (see Rev. 20:11-15; cf. Jn. 5:28,29). In death, the soul goes to the Unseen, the Spirit back to it's Maker, and the body returns to the ground. Paradise has nothing to do with 'sheol' or 'hades' and never has. And the "lower parts of the earth" could be interpreted as burial. Still waiting for duggy/equal to give us the Book, chapter, and verse of where the word 'aides' is located.
3/3/2016 4:11:44 AM	Sheol,Hades,Hell
rtay Port Saint Lucie, FL 65, joined Aug. 2010	Quote from isna_la_wica: Good stuff ! thanks Rich, I believe in the continuity and harmony of the Bible from Genesis to revelation. If something doesn't make sense or there seems to be a contradiction,then I am to blame,not the Word of God. What Jesus said to the thief on the Cross “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.” gives it a little more clarity.Also when using the word sleep in the New testament instead of dead refers to those who are saved. 1Corth.15:12-23 12Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. 15We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied. 20But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. And falling to his knees he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep. Acts 7:60 And all were weeping and mourning for her, but he said, “Do not weep, for she is not dead but sleeping.” Luke 8:52 rt thanks for the bump [Edited 3/3/2016 4:12:30 AM ]
3/3/2016 11:45:27 AM	Sheol,Hades,Hell
bigd9832 Chicago, IL 63, joined Oct. 2007	Quote from rtay: I believe in the continuity and harmony of the Bible from Genesis to revelation. If you want continuity then you must abandon the KJV. There are several more consistantly translated English versions. How can one word ('sheol') mean "the grave," "pit," and "hell"? Not very consistent.
3/3/2016 12:08:38 PM	Sheol,Hades,Hell
bigd9832 Chicago, IL 63, joined Oct. 2007	Here is a list, by no means complete, of English versions that have dropped the word "hell." Please note, even the New KJV made this change. CLV Mt 16:18 Now I, also, am saying to you that you are Peter, and on this rock will I be building My ecclesia, and the gates of the unseen shall not be prevailing against it. YLT Mt 16:18 'And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly, and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it; New International Version And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. New American Standard Bible "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. Holman Christian Standard Bible And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the forces of Hades will not overpower it. NET Bible And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. Aramaic Bible in Plain English “Also I say to you, that you are Kaypha, and upon this stone I shall build my church, and the gates of Sheol will not withstand it.” Jubilee Bible 2000 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, a small rock and upon the large rock I will build my congregation {Gr. ekklesia – called out ones}, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against her. King James 2000 Bible And I say also unto you, That you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hades shall not prevail against it. American Standard Version And I also say unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. Darby Bible Translation And I also, I say unto thee that thou art Peter, and on this rock I will build my assembly, and hades' gates shall not prevail against it. English Revised Version And I also say unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. Weymouth New Testament And I declare to you that you are Peter, and that upon this Rock I will build my Church, and the might of Hades shall not triumph over it. World English Bible I also tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my assembly, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. Amplified Bible (AMP) 18 And I tell you, you are [a]Peter [Greek, Petros—a large piece of rock], and on this rock [Greek, petra—a (b)huge rock like Gibraltar] I will build My church, and the gates of Hades (the powers of the [c]infernal region) shall [d]not overpower it [or be strong to its detriment or hold out against it]. Disciples’ Literal New Testament (DLNT) 18 And I also[a] say to you that you are a rock(b), and upon this bed-rock[c] I will build My church— and the gates[d] of Hades will not prevail-against[e] it. Common English Bible (CEB) 18 I tell you that you are Peter.[a] And I’ll build my church on this rock. The gates of the underworld won’t be able to stand against it. Common English Bible (CEB) 18 I tell you that you are Peter.[a] And I’ll build my church on this rock. The gates of the underworld won’t be able to stand against it. Expanded Bible (EXB) 18 So I tell you, you are Peter [C?the Greek petros, like the Aramaic cephas, means “rock” or “stone”]. On this rock I will build my church, and the ·power of death [L?gates of Hades/the underworld] will not be able to ·defeat [overpower; conquer; prevail against] it. J.B. Phillips New Testament (PHILLIPS) “Simon, son of Jonah, you are a fortunate man indeed!” said Jesus, “for it was not your own nature but my Heavenly Father who has revealed this truth to you! Now I tell you that you are Peter the rock, and it is on this rock that I am going to found my Church, and the powers of death will never prevail against it.
3/3/2016 1:42:45 PM	Sheol,Hades,Hell
Equalizer21 Seattle, WA 53, joined Oct. 2014	After Jacob died, Joseph had his body mummified, a process that took forty days, then took him back to Canaan for burial (Gen. 50:1-14). When we add to that the thirty days of mourning (Gen. 50:2-4), and the time it took to travel to Canaan for the funeral (Gen. 50:5-13), we see that it was several weeks after Jacob was “gathered unto his people” (Gen. 49:33) before his body was placed in the cave that served as his burial place. Considering that he had been dead for well over two months before his body was buried and that the Scriptures state that at the time he died he was “gathered to his people” (Gen. 49:33) is telling. This shows that at the time of physical death, when “he yielded up the spirit,” his soul immediately departed his body to be with Isaac and Abraham. This cannot be a reference to his body being gathered together with their bodies, as that did not take place for over ten weeks. This is strong proof that Sheol does not mean a burial place for the body, but is the place where the souls of the departed reside. . In the case of Samuel and Saul, we find another example of the Scriptures making a distinction between Sheol/Hades and the grave. In his conversation with King Saul, Samuel, whom the Lord had sent back from the dead to deliver a message to Saul, said that Saul and his sons would be with him the next day (see I Sam. 28:15-19). As foretold, Saul and his sons did die the next day while in battle with the Philistines (see I Sam. 31:1-6). However, their bodies were not buried the next day, so they did not join Samuel in the grave but their souls went down to Sheol/Hades where the person, or soul, of Samuel was. As it is said that Samuel “came up” it seems obvious that he went back down after speaking with Saul (I Sam. 28:8,11,14). As for the bodies of Saul and his sons, their remains were not buried for several days. As Samuel had said, they died the next day (I Sam. 31:1-6). But it was the day after they died that their bodies were taken by the Philistines and hung on the wall of Beth-Shan (I Sam. 31:7-10). After hearing of this, valiant men from Jabesh-Gilead went by night and removed their bodies, took them to Jabesh, burned them, and then buried their bones. All this took place at least three days after Saul had died, and probably longer. Saul and his sons joined Samuel in Sheol/Hades the day they died and the flesh of their bodies was burned with only their bones being placed in a grave several days later. Obviously Sheol/Hades and the grave are not the same thing, nor are they in the same place. Thanks Brother for this, i feell better equipped now in the word! Good stuff. I know your much more loving and tolerable towards bigd in trying to help him and this is commendable. Bigd has been a cancer in this forum for almost a 10 years. 2tim 2 14 Remind them of these things, charging them before the Lord not to strive about words to no profit, to the ruin of the hearers. 16 But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. 17 And their message will spread like cancer. Bigd has been babbling on for almost 10 years spreading his disease. When ever you present information and truth that you seemingly wish to help, in following the Lords command to be a servant and loving. Bigd skips over it and starts on his rhetoric. His rhetoric is an evil cancer. Eventually those who allow him voice, will be a partaker of his evil deeds, i firmly believe this. Bigd doesnt want truth. He totally ignore things like i have highlighted above. Hes rejecting the doctrines of Jesus. 2 John 1:9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 1 Timothy 6:3 [ Error and Greed ] If anyone teaches otherwise and does not consent to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which accords with godliness, Why dont you ask bigd about his doctrine that Singles can have all the sex they want? I understand you have to satisfy your own heart and mind in the matter, and i applaud this. Not only that, others are watching so its good to rehash it for them also. So for me, ive progressed way past that and firmly believe, that this forum would be better served by purging the likes of Bigd out of our midst. This starts by blocking him. Thats my opinion, and i dont judge you either way you stand or disrespect you in your decision. Just letting you know where i stand. 1 Corinthians 5:7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump,
3/3/2016 2:44:37 PM	Sheol,Hades,Hell
rtay Port Saint Lucie, FL 65, joined Aug. 2010	thanks Equalizer21,Your post is always an encouragement Big quoted: CLV Jn 11:11 He said these things, and after this He is saying to them, "Lazarus, our friend, has found repose, but I am going that I should be awakening him out of sleep." 12 The disciples, then, said to Him, "Lord, if he has repose, he shall be saved." 13 Now Jesus had made a declaration concerning his death, yet they suppose that He is saying it concerning the repose of sleep. 14 Jesus, then, said to them with boldness then, "Lazarus died." Jesus spoke of "soul-sleep." As did Paul. john 11 So the sisters sent to him, saying, “Lord, he whom you love is ill.” 4But when Jesus heard it he said, “This illness does not lead to death. It is for the glory of God, so that the Son of God may be glorified through it.” 5Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus. 11After saying these things, he said to them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I go to awaken him.” 12The disciples said to him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.” 13Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that he meant taking rest in sleep. 14Then Jesus told them plainly, “Lazarus has died, 15and for your sake I am glad that I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.” “This illness does not lead to death. It is for the glory of God, so that the Son of God may be glorified through it.” I quess you missed that part.maybe he had a soul-nap rt
3/3/2016 4:00:26 PM	Sheol,Hades,Hell
bigd9832 Chicago, IL 63, joined Oct. 2007	CLV Jn 11:11 He said these things, and after this He is saying to them, "Lazarus, our friend, has found repose, but I am going that I should be awakening him out of sleep." CLV Jn 11:14 Jesus, then, said to them with boldness then, "Lazarus died." So Jesus said Lazarus was asleep when he was actually dead. What part did you think I missed? CLV Jn 11:4 Yet Jesus, hearing it, said, "This infirmity is not to death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God should be glorified through it." The cause of Lazarus' infirmity was not sin, as in the case of the man at Bethesda. It was the necessary prelude to the manifestation of His glory. Indeed, the Lord deliberately delayed His departure in order that he should die. So He deals with Israel. Their great cry is "Till when ?" ( Isa 6:11 ). Their restoration to life is postponed until they are beyond all hope, until their resurrection, spiritually as well as physically, is manifestly the work of the Lord. So now are you saying that Jesus did not refer to death as sleep? Still waiting for duggy/equal to produce the book, chapter, and verse where the word 'aides' is located IN THE BIBLE.
3/3/2016 5:07:24 PM	Sheol,Hades,Hell
rtay Port Saint Lucie, FL 65, joined Aug. 2010	1Corth.15:17,18 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. to put it simply, if Christ has not been raised you will still be in your sins and those who have fallen asleep in Christ would still perish,Sense Christ was raised, then those who have fallen asleep in Christ will not perish. If you use death for fallen asleep, what is perish? 1Tim.1:9,10 8Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony about our Lord, nor of me his prisoner, but share in suffering for the gospel by the power of God, 9who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began, 10and which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel rt
3/3/2016 7:20:19 PM	Sheol,Hades,Hell
Equalizer21 Seattle, WA 53, joined Oct. 2014	Quote from rtay: 1Corth.15:17,18 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. to put it simply, if Christ has not been raised you will still be in your sins and those who have fallen asleep in Christ would still perish,Sense Christ was raised, then those who have fallen asleep in Christ will not perish. If you use death for fallen asleep, what is perish? 1Tim.1:9,10 8Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony about our Lord, nor of me his prisoner, but share in suffering for the gospel by the power of God, 9who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began, 10and which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel rt Thank you Rtay, excellent points. Why would God allow the unrighteous to be asleep, then awaken them to throw them into fire? Isnt that like tormenting? or rubbing their nose in it? or getting vengeance? Why not just let them be asleep, and then let that be perish? or like you say then what really does perish mean? oh yeah, Excellent scripture. Praise God for his word. Immortality to "the light" through "the gospel".........woooohoooooooo, its ok that we can preach immortality, through the glorious Gospel. Jesus is offering it to us, even though God alone has it, he has given us this ministry to preach immortality! To the light of the Gospel......... Colossians 1:26 the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints. Some people are still ASLEEP to the might and power of Gods glorious Gospel, which is. John 11:26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?” Thanks rtay!
3/3/2016 7:34:35 PM	Sheol,Hades,Hell
bigd9832 Chicago, IL 63, joined Oct. 2007	Quote from rtay: If you use death for fallen asleep, what is perish? Strong's... G622 apollumi ap-ol'-loo-mee from G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively. The state of the dead, apart from resurrection, is not one of ecstatic bliss, but of destruction. ******************************************************************** I am confused. What exactly do you think "soul-sleep" is? I have a feeling you are reading something into this. I have said many times that in death, the soul goes to the Unseen. This is a figurative statement. There really is no "Unseen." The soul is destroyed at death. Much like the light from an electric bulb is. A soul is formed by a spirit uniting with a body. When the Body and spirit separate the soul is destroyed. When the spirit and body are reunited, the soul returns. It does not sleep. It is destroyed. When a light bulb (body) and electricity (spirit) are united a light is formed. When they separate what happens to the light? It dissipates. So it is with the soul. The source of the light (the source of the soul) is gone. What do you think "soul-sleep" is? ******************************************************************** I guess I have given duggy/equal enough time to redeem himself. So now that his theory that 'aides' is in the Bible has been debunked, we can move on. I have cited several reasons why I have observed that there is no 'hell' in the Scriptures. So far I have seen no evidence to the contrary of what I have already stated several times here. No one has been able to come forward and disprove these points. 1. There is no Ancient term for the word 'hell' as we use it. Sheol Hades Gehenna Tartarus Which one did you think was hell?
3/4/2016 5:25:18 AM	Sheol,Hades,Hell
rtay Port Saint Lucie, FL 65, joined Aug. 2010	Psalms 16:10 10For You will not abandon my soul to Sheol; Nor will You allow Your Holy One to undergo decay. Proverbs 23:14 (ESV) If you strike him with the rod, you will save his soul from Sheol. Acts 2:27 (ESV) For you will not abandon my soul to Hades, or let your Holy One see corruption. Job 33:28 (ESV) He has redeemed my soul from going down into the pit, and my life shall look upon the light.’ Psalm 49:15 (ESV) But God will ransom my soul from the power of Sheol, for he will receive me. Selah Psalm 89:48 (ESV) What man can live and never see death? Who can deliver his soul from the power of Sheol? Selah Psalm 30:3 (ESV) O Lord, you have brought up my soul from Sheol; you restored me to life from among those who go down to the pit. Psalm 56:13 (ESV) For you have delivered my soul from death, yes, my feet from falling, that I may walk before God in the light of life. James 5:20 (ESV) let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins. doesn't sound like the soul is destroyed to me rt If the soul is destroyed, how can it be abandon?
3/4/2016 9:22:25 AM	Sheol,Hades,Hell
bigd9832 Chicago, IL 63, joined Oct. 2007	Quote from rtay: doesn't sound like the soul is destroyed to me That is meaningless to me. Your opinions are NOT Scripture. Nor is your understanding. Perhaps you can provide some evidence to your opinions. Quote from rtay: If the soul is destroyed, how can it be abandon? 'sheol/hades' are not literal places, but figurative. I have already said that.
3/4/2016 10:56:43 AM	Sheol,Hades,Hell
Equalizer21 Seattle, WA 53, joined Oct. 2014	Just waitin on duggy/equal to show what book, chapter, and verse this word 'aides' is used IN THE BIBLE. "Aides" is an English word that describes a disease Exactly bigd, aides, the greek word for unseen, is not found in the bible. Nor can you find it in the ancient text. Good job bigd, we agree on this point. Yet, you and knoch, take the word unseen, like hell, and insert it into the text and your translation. Which makes your translation faulty. If KJV is faulty for inserting hell. CLV and your translation is faulty for inserting unseen. Sheol is not unseen. There is no ancient text showing sheol as the unseen. You made that up. The funny thing is, you condemn KJV and adherents for faulty translation, yet you use the very same method, creating a false translation. With word manipulation. This not only speaks to your lack of integrity. It shows the arrogance of your hypocrisy and phariseeism, thus you condemn yourself, and that's the measure God will judge you by. The sad thing is, you don't respect or fear that and will carry on with your madness. 2 Thessalonians 2:12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness
3/4/2016 11:02:04 AM	Sheol,Hades,Hell
Equalizer21 Seattle, WA 53, joined Oct. 2014	Quote from rtay: Psalms 16:10 10For You will not abandon my soul to Sheol; Nor will You allow Your Holy One to undergo decay. Proverbs 23:14 (ESV) If you strike him with the rod, you will save his soul from Sheol. Acts 2:27 (ESV) For you will not abandon my soul to Hades, or let your Holy One see corruption. Job 33:28 (ESV) He has redeemed my soul from going down into the pit, and my life shall look upon the light.’ Psalm 49:15 (ESV) But God will ransom my soul from the power of Sheol, for he will receive me. Selah Psalm 89:48 (ESV) What man can live and never see death? Who can deliver his soul from the power of Sheol? Selah Psalm 30:3 (ESV) O Lord, you have brought up my soul from Sheol; you restored me to life from among those who go down to the pit. Psalm 56:13 (ESV) For you have delivered my soul from death, yes, my feet from falling, that I may walk before God in the light of life. James 5:20 (ESV) let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins. doesn't sound like the soul is destroyed to me rt If the soul is destroyed, how can it be abandon? Thank you rtay, again I am further equipped and built up...... Saving a soul from death. this is so awesome. Our soul will never die and we have immortality. It's so sad, that the soul sleep crowd has left the building, and back into the shadows and don't want to come to this glorious light of the gospel. That is so sad. I still hope and pray they are reading and turn from their wandering from truth, and come to this glorious light. Or maybe they want to hide in darkness still, and not come to the light, because their deeds are EVIL?
3/4/2016 4:27:36 PM	Sheol,Hades,Hell
bigd9832 Chicago, IL 63, joined Oct. 2007	Quote from duggy/equal: heol is not unseen. There is no ancient text showing sheol as the unseen. You made that up. Apparently duggy/equal has a hard time reading.
3/4/2016 4:27:58 PM	Sheol,Hades,Hell
rtay Port Saint Lucie, FL 65, joined Aug. 2010	Equalizer21,thanks just an added note Psalms 16:10 refers to Jesus Christ. Acts 2:22 22"Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know- 23this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. 24But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power. 25For David says of Him, 'I saw the Lord always in my presence; For He is at my right hand, so that I will not be shaken. 26'Therefore my heart was glad and my tongue exulted; Moreover my flesh also will live in hope; 27Because You will not abandon my soul to Hades, Nor allow Your Holy One to undergo decay. 28'You have made known to me the ways of life; You will make me full of gladness with Your presence.' 29"Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30And so, because he was a prophet and knew that God had sworn to him with an oath to seat one of his descendants on his throne, 31he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that He was neither abandoned to Hades, nor did His flesh suffer decay. 32This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses. 1corth.15:20But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. 13But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised. 42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. Its important to note that Christ died on the Cross as Man in the fullest sense.This is our Hope and Joy.God Bless rt
3/5/2016 9:25:44 AM	Sheol,Hades,Hell
bigd9832 Chicago, IL 63, joined Oct. 2007	Quote from duggy/equal: Our soul will never die and we have immortality. CLV Ezk 18:4 Lo, all the souls are Mine, As the soul of the father, So also the soul of the son--they are Mine, The soul that is sinning--it does die. Hey duggy. why don't you tell us about the time you came to DH as a woman? Did you get many dates that way?
3/5/2016 10:27:01 AM	Sheol,Hades,Hell
Equalizer21 Seattle, WA 53, joined Oct. 2014	Luk 24:31 and their eyes were opened, and they recognized him, and he became unseen by them. Rtay, this is an interesting scripture. It is from YLT , the word unseen here , does not mean, hades. This also is an eye opening scripture. Luke 11:44 `Wo to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because ye are as the unseen tombs, and the men walking above have not known.' Not only does the word unseen appear and doesn't mean hades. Look how it describes, dead men walking, like those in the tombs , yet the living cannot see this spiritual aspect, even though it's happening.
3/5/2016 1:04:36 PM	Sheol,Hades,Hell
isna_la_wica Brantford, ON 61, joined Mar. 2012	Quote from rtay: thanks Rich, I believe in the continuity and harmony of the Bible from Genesis to revelation. If something doesn't make sense or there seems to be a contradiction,then I am to blame,not the Word of God. What Jesus said to the thief on the Cross “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.” gives it a little more clarity.Also when using the word sleep in the New testament instead of dead refers to those who are saved. 1Corth.15:12-23 12Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. 15We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied. 20But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. And falling to his knees he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep. Acts 7:60 And all were weeping and mourning for her, but he said, “Do not weep, for she is not dead but sleeping.” Luke 8:52 rt thanks for the bump Not sure what the discussion is about ray, only seeing your posts here. Are you saying, that Stephens soul went to sleep? Well Acts 7, which you mentioned, in verse 56 tells us : Acts 7:56 Young's Literal Translation (YLT) 56 and he said, `Lo, I see the heavens having been opened, and the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God.' Acts 7:59 Young's Literal Translation (YLT) 59 and they were stoning Stephen, calling and saying, `Lord Jesus, receive my spirit;' I fail to see how this describes Stephens soul, going to "sleep" with his body in the grave. Ephesians 3:14-15, describes clearly, people in heaven and people still alive on earth. Ephesians 3:14-15 Young's Literal Translation (YLT) 14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 of whom the whole family in the heavens and on earth is named, And in :Luke 16:22 Young's Literal Translation (YLT) 22 `And it came to pass, that the poor man died, and that he was carried away by the messengers to the bosom of Abraham -- and the rich man also died, and was buried; Obviously the soul departs from our earthly body, which is buried in the grave, and does not "sleep" with the corpse. If any tying, "sleeps" , it is not our soul, but rather our body, until the resurrection. Between the time of our death and the resurrection? Believers souls are with Jesus in heaven. They do not "sleep" in the grave.
3/5/2016 4:22:28 PM	Sheol,Hades,Hell
rtay Port Saint Lucie, FL 65, joined Aug. 2010	Quote from isna_la_wica: Not sure what the discussion is about ray, only seeing your posts here. Are you saying, that Stephens soul went to sleep? Well Acts 7, which you mentioned, in verse 56 tells us : Acts 7:56 Young's Literal Translation (YLT) 56 and he said, `Lo, I see the heavens having been opened, and the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God.' Acts 7:59 Young's Literal Translation (YLT) 59 and they were stoning Stephen, calling and saying, `Lord Jesus, receive my spirit;' I fail to see how this describes Stephens soul, going to "sleep" with his body in the grave. Ephesians 3:14-15, describes clearly, people in heaven and people still alive on earth. Ephesians 3:14-15 Young's Literal Translation (YLT) 14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 of whom the whole family in the heavens and on earth is named, And in :Luke 16:22 Young's Literal Translation (YLT) 22 `And it came to pass, that the poor man died, and that he was carried away by the messengers to the bosom of Abraham -- and the rich man also died, and was buried; Obviously the soul departs from our earthly body, which is buried in the grave, and does not "sleep" with the corpse. If any tying, "sleeps" , it is not our soul, but rather our body, until the resurrection. Between the time of our death and the resurrection? Believers souls are with Jesus in heaven. They do not "sleep" in the grave. Rich,Your right. There is no such thing as soul sleep.I should of word it better But the word for “sleep” is also used uniquely of Christians, and it’s used a number of times for Christians, and it always refers to their bodies. You remember when Stephen was being stoned it says in verse 60, “Falling on his knees he cried out with a loud voice, ‘Lord, do not hold this sin against them.’ And having said this, he fell asleep.” He fell asleep. It was death from the human viewpoint. It was death from the clinical viewpoint. It was sleep because it was only temporary repose for his body. His spirit didn’t go in to unconsciousness. If you don’t think so, look at verse 59. He said, “Lord Jesus,” what? “Receive my spirit.” It was only his body that was to be in repose, to be asleep. The term “sleep” or the concept of sleep does not refer to the soul. There is no such thing as souls sleeping. When Stephen was dying he said, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” And he had the anticipation of entering into the conscious presence of Jesus Christ. Nowhere does the Scripture ever teach that at any time forever the spirit of a person is ever unconscious. That’s what makes hell so terrible. It is consciousness in the absence of God forever. That’s what makes heaven so wonderful; it is consciousness of the presence of God forever. 2 Corinthians chapter 5, the apostle Paul looks at death for a believer, and in verse 8 he says, “To be absent from the body is to be at home with the Lord.” One writer puts it this way, “Death has been changed to sleep by the death of Christ. It is an apt metaphor in which the whole concept of death is transformed. Christ made sleep the name for death in the dialect of the church.” End quote. Christ made sleep the name for death in the dialect of the church. Why? Because He paid for our sins. You say, “What does that have to do with it?” The wages of sin is death. If the wages are paid, then we no longer face death, only temporary sleep.rt gty
3/5/2016 4:25:50 PM	Sheol,Hades,Hell
rtay Port Saint Lucie, FL 65, joined Aug. 2010	Quote from Equalizer21: Luk 24:31 and their eyes were opened, and they recognized him, and he became unseen by them. Rtay, this is an interesting scripture. It is from YLT , the word unseen here , does not mean, hades. This also is an eye opening scripture. Luke 11:44 `Wo to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because ye are as the unseen tombs, and the men walking above have not known.' Not only does the word unseen appear and doesn't mean hades. Look how it describes, dead men walking, like those in the tombs , yet the living cannot see this spiritual aspect, even though it's happening. thanks Equalizer21,Let me do a study first and I will reply to your post
3/5/2016 4:32:53 PM	Sheol,Hades,Hell
isna_la_wica Brantford, ON 61, joined Mar. 2012	Quote from rtay: Rich,Your right. There is no such thing as soul sleep.I should of word it better But the word for “sleep” is also used uniquely of Christians, and it’s used a number of times for Christians, and it always refers to their bodies. You remember when Stephen was being stoned it says in verse 60, “Falling on his knees he cried out with a loud voice, ‘Lord, do not hold this sin against them.’ And having said this, he fell asleep.” He fell asleep. It was death from the human viewpoint. It was death from the clinical viewpoint. It was sleep because it was only temporary repose for his body. His spirit didn’t go in to unconsciousness. If you don’t think so, look at verse 59. He said, “Lord Jesus,” what? “Receive my spirit.” It was only his body that was to be in repose, to be asleep. The term “sleep” or the concept of sleep does not refer to the soul. There is no such thing as souls sleeping. When Stephen was dying he said, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” And he had the anticipation of entering into the conscious presence of Jesus Christ. Nowhere does the Scripture ever teach that at any time forever the spirit of a person is ever unconscious. That’s what makes hell so terrible. It is consciousness in the absence of God forever. That’s what makes heaven so wonderful; it is consciousness of the presence of God forever. 2 Corinthians chapter 5, the apostle Paul looks at death for a believer, and in verse 8 he says, “To be absent from the body is to be at home with the Lord.” One writer puts it this way, “Death has been changed to sleep by the death of Christ. It is an apt metaphor in which the whole concept of death is transformed. Christ made sleep the name for death in the dialect of the church.” End quote. Christ made sleep the name for death in the dialect of the church. Why? Because He paid for our sins. You say, “What does that have to do with it?” The wages of sin is death. If the wages are paid, then we no longer face death, only temporary sleep.rt gty , I agree, it is about the body, and not the soul. I am reading a book right now you would enjoy. Its called , "Heaven", by Dr. Randy Alcorn. While it is about heaven, it deals with many of the same issues that have to be dealt with when it comes to the 'other " side of the "gulf". If you get a chance, read it. I am not sure how much I agree with him on every thing, but do enjoy what he brings forth in the book, and like the questions that pop up.
3/5/2016 6:10:39 PM	Sheol,Hades,Hell
rtay Port Saint Lucie, FL 65, joined Aug. 2010	big quote: A soul is formed by a spirit uniting with a body. When the Body and spirit separate the soul is destroyed. When the spirit and body are reunited, the soul returns. It does not sleep. It is destroyed. When a light bulb (body) and electricity (spirit) are united a light is formed. When they separate what happens to the light? It dissipates. So it is with the soul. The source of the light (the source of the soul) is gone. Evil spirits (demons) have no bodies and their light bulb works just fine.rt
3/5/2016 6:55:11 PM	Sheol,Hades,Hell
bigd9832 Chicago, IL 63, joined Oct. 2007	Quote from duggy/equal: Rtay, this is an interesting scripture. It is from YLT , the word unseen here , does not mean, hades. I have already debunked almost everything duggy has said. Hey duggy. why don't you tell us about the time you came to DH as a woman? Did you get many dates that way? In death, the body goes to the ground from where it came (Gen. 3:19), the soul goes to the Unseen (Psalm 9:17, Acts 2:27, 31), and the Spirit returns to it's Maker (Ecc. 12:7). Acts 7:59 is in perfect harmony with this assessment. Quote from tray: Evil spirits (demons) have no bodies and their light bulb works just fine. I don't see how this relates to anything I have ever said. When you start to tell people what they believe you are creating what we call a Straw-man argument.
3/5/2016 8:45:36 PM	Sheol,Hades,Hell
Equalizer21 Seattle, WA 53, joined Oct. 2014	Big d says: big quote: When a light bulb (body) and electricity (spirit) are united a light is formed. When they separate what happens to the light? It dissipates. So it is with the soul. The source of the light (the source of the soul) is gone. Rtay says; Evil spirits (demons) have no bodies and their light bulb works just fine.rt Rtay excellent pt.
3/5/2016 8:46:27 PM	Sheol,Hades,Hell
Equalizer21 Seattle, WA 53, joined Oct. 2014	Big d says: big quote: When a light bulb (body) and electricity (spirit) are united a light is formed. When they separate what happens to the light? It dissipates. So it is with the soul. The source of the light (the source of the soul) is gone. Rtay says; Evil spirits (demons) have no bodies and their light bulb works just fine.rt Rtay excellent pt. I guess bigd the scientist will have to go back to the drawing board?
3/6/2016 5:05:48 AM	Sheol,Hades,Hell
isna_la_wica Brantford, ON 61, joined Mar. 2012	Quote from rtay: big quote: A soul is formed by a spirit uniting with a body. When the Body and spirit separate the soul is destroyed. When the spirit and body are reunited, the soul returns. It does not sleep. It is destroyed. When a light bulb (body) and electricity (spirit) are united a light is formed. When they separate what happens to the light? It dissipates. So it is with the soul. The source of the light (the source of the soul) is gone. Evil spirits (demons) have no bodies and their light bulb works just fine.rt Knoch is not the best at Physics. First off, a light bulb is simply a resistor in a circuit. If you touch a positive charge to a negative charge, you get a violent arc. But place a resistor in the circuit, then you get a warmer , softer light that lasts a long time. One can use the light bulb as an example for spiritual things, and where it meets what is physical,,,, but not in the way that poster has. And no,,,, light does not disappear. Light waves and protons do not disappear, and dissipate is also not accurate. They are either absorbed, reflected, scattered or they continue on for ever. First a clarification. Light waves or Photons do not disappear. They either are absorbed, reflected, scattered, or they continue on forever.They continue on even though they do not leave an effect when they pass through space. So a beam of light can take thousands of light years to travel to us here, even though the source , perhaps a star, burned out a thousand years ago. If the Proton passes through some sort of medium, then it will leave an effect if it is absorbed, scattered or reflected, because the energy of the proton causes the the atoms to become excited and then the energy can change to other forms such as heat. But here is the interesting thing ! When the electron loses its excited state, another proton can be emitted. Think about that, and compare it to how we change from this life, to the intermediate one, and then what will be at the resurrection ! But it is never destroyed, just like energy, and does not sleep,,,, simply changes 'form",, and one could compare it to a change of state as in liquid to water to ice. If any thing, using this as an example for what happens when the soul leaves the body, proves the exact opposite to what that poster is saying. No wonder he thinks, souls sleep,,,,when it is the physical body that requires sleep,,,not soul or spirit. [Edited 3/6/2016 5:06:29 AM ]
3/6/2016 8:06:25 AM	Sheol,Hades,Hell
rtay Port Saint Lucie, FL 65, joined Aug. 2010	thanks Equalizer21 and Rich, Matthew27NASB 50And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. 51And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split. 52The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many. 1 Corinthians 15 NASB But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. The future resurrection of Christians is guaranteed; because the first-fruits forerun and are, as it were, a pledge and promise of the rest of the harvest. rt
3/6/2016 8:36:08 AM	Sheol,Hades,Hell
rtay Port Saint Lucie, FL 65, joined Aug. 2010	Quote from rtay: thanks Equalizer21 and Rich, Matthew27NASB 50And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. 51And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split. 52The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many. 1 Corinthians 15 NASB But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. The future resurrection of Christians is guaranteed; because the first-fruits forerun and are, as it were, a pledge and promise of the rest of the harvest. rt Look at Stephen again in acts 7,verse 56,59, and 60 56and he said, "Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God." 59They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!" 60Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them!" Having said this, he fell asleep. Jesus yielded up His spirit,Stephen ask Lord Jesus to receive my spirit.rt
3/6/2016 9:34:52 AM	Sheol,Hades,Hell
Equalizer21 Seattle, WA 53, joined Oct. 2014	Quote from rtay: Look at Stephen again in acts 7,verse 56,59, and 60 56and he said, "Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God." 59They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!" 60Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them!" Having said this, he fell asleep. Jesus yielded up His spirit,Stephen ask Lord Jesus to receive my spirit.rt Rtay, I will dig some more later on this, after I post. I don't know how much they knew back then, about the soul and spirit. As we do now. Stephen being the best example of the two, About spirit , I believe "our" spirit is an outward manifestation of our soul. Yet that spirit is different than the spirit,of God , that infuses life in the body. IMO The greater amount of scripture place soul as what is saved. So sometimes the one scripture, like stephen, are subordinate, for whatever reason , so we have to look at it, but in what way, becomes the question. Revelation 6:9 [ Fifth Seal: The Cry of the Martyrs ] When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. Hebrews 12:23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect I know both scripture above, do not contradict my statement earlier. That the spirit, is an outward manifestation of the soul. Likened to God and his spirit. Hope that helps, I will study it some more.
3/6/2016 2:13:44 PM	Sheol,Hades,Hell
bigd9832 Chicago, IL 63, joined Oct. 2007	It's probably not a good idea to ask a preterists about the laws of physics. He is suggesting that electricity does not power an electric light bulb? No wonder he thinks Jesus has already returned and all the prophecies have been fulfilled. But then we already have examples of "science" from our loopy friend who insists that a list of random numbers will cure cancer or some such nonsense. I learned a long time ago that it's not always a good idea to go to Christians for scientific explanations. Of course early man did not have the luxury of "physics" when he provided an explanation for what happens to the soul at death... CLV Gn 2:7 And forming is Yahweh Elohim the human of soil from the ground, and He is blowing into his nostrils the breath of the living, and becoming is the human a living soul. A more detailed explanation won't come around for many years as Genesis didn't come about til about 3500 BC or so and "physics" wasn't spawned until the end of the 19th century. That's a very long wait. Early man saw that the soul goes to a place where he cannot see and so dubbed 'sheol' as the "unseen." Pretty simple. And so much like electricity powers an electric light bulb, so does the spirit power the body. Body and spirit connected, soul is formed. Body and spirit disconnected, soul is gone. Where? To a place we cannot see. I realize that now this new alliance of duggy, tray, and isna like to play the game of finding what I have said is not correct. They have veered off from the truth and the quest to "correctly cut the Word of truth." I wish them luck on their new quest. But I would still like to know if duggy got any dates when he came to DH as a woman.
3/6/2016 3:26:24 PM	Sheol,Hades,Hell
rtay Port Saint Lucie, FL 65, joined Aug. 2010	bigd9832 First of all, nobody has accused you of telling the truth. there is no reason for you act like a child and put down other people,if you can't play nice go to another area in this forum. you really need to read 2peter 2:1 1But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. 2Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; 3and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep. I find it interesting that people in this forum that bring false teaching never quote Scripture dealing with judgement for false teacher.rt they promote self,and give no Glory to God for His Inspired Word,hardly ever say,My Lord,My Savior,and show no love for our brothers and sisters in Christ.rt
3/6/2016 3:49:29 PM	Sheol,Hades,Hell
bigd9832 Chicago, IL 63, joined Oct. 2007	Quote from rtay: there is no reason for you act like a child and put down other people,if you can't play nice go to another area in this forum. How very unfair of you. There are those here who have said alot worse and much more often than I have. and yet you single me out and accuse me of "putting down others." I have merely tried to right the wrongs here. For it is obvious that you and several others here have not read the Scriptures nor have any understanding of it. This is, after all, a Christian forum. We are supposed to be guided by the Scriptures. But it seems you and some of your fellow accusers are guided by your own egos. CLV 2Ti 2:15 Endeavor to present yourself to God qualified, an unashamed worker, correctly cutting the word of truth. 16 Yet from profane prattlings stand aloof, for they will be progressing onto more irreverence, 17 and their word will spread as gangrene, of whom are Hymeneus and Philetus, So this is your new game.
3/6/2016 4:22:57 PM	Sheol,Hades,Hell
louie6332 Falkville, AL 73, joined Nov. 2011	BigD, you say: “The spirit powers the body”. No, not exactly. The burning of hydrocarbons in the food we eat with the oxygen we breathe is what powers the body. It’s a chemical reaction that powers the physical body. That’s why we have to have oxygen and food (and water) to live. But you know that already. Stop grasping at straws in an attempt to explain what you do not understand. Spirits on the other hand do not eat, and do not need to eat. We know some interesting things about spirits. Saved spirits are light spirits, that is, spirits that give off at least a very dim light. These can sometimes be seen and even photographed with ordinary film as ghosts in haunted houses and such. Lost spirits on the other hand are dark spirits. They give off no light. And when they are in a room, they make the room feel cold, as if a block of ice were sitting in the room. They do this because they absorb infrared light, radiant heat, from the living bodies in the room. They can be photographed with infrared sensitive film and appear on the film as a shadow man. Demons appear as half man, half animal, so they are easily distinguished from the spirit of men. The spirits of men can appear in different forms, but most often appear as men, that is their natural form. If you were to see your deceased grandmother, for example, you would immediately recognize her from her features. We have countless photographs of the spirits of men and demons, which can be found, for example, on the Internet. Now the point of all this is that this constitutes physical evidence that these spirits are not “sleeping”. In fact, spirits do not sleep or need to sleep, they do rest from time to time, but do not need to sleep. These spirits are moving around, they are living, not dead. You and Knoch, BigD, are wrong. Louie [Edited 3/6/2016 4:25:19 PM ]
3/6/2016 5:06:12 PM	Sheol,Hades,Hell
Equalizer21 Seattle, WA 53, joined Oct. 2014	Quote from rtay: bigd9832 First of all, nobody has accused you of telling the truth. there is no reason for you act like a child and put down other people,if you can't play nice go to another area in this forum. you really need to read 2peter 2:1 1But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. 2Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; 3and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep. I find it interesting that people in this forum that bring false teaching never quote Scripture dealing with judgement for false teacher.rt they promote self,and give no Glory to God for His Inspired Word,hardly ever say,My Lord,My Savior,and show no love for our brothers and sisters in Christ.rt Thanks Rtay, i take the judgement of false teachers, very seriously, its not a game to me and not a competition. Rev 6 9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed if souls are dead, how can they speak like these? For that matter, how can they wear white robes? How can they perceive whats going on? How can they even think God is holy and true.........? Notice how they CRIED WITH A LOUD VOICE.!!!
3/6/2016 5:10:37 PM	Sheol,Hades,Hell
Equalizer21 Seattle, WA 53, joined Oct. 2014	Quote from Equalizer21: Luk 24:31 and their eyes were opened, and they recognized him, and he became unseen by them. Rtay, this is an interesting scripture. It is from YLT , the word unseen here , does not mean, hades. This also is an eye opening scripture. Luke 11:44 `Wo to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because ye are as the unseen tombs, and the men walking above have not known.' Not only does the word unseen appear and doesn't mean hades. Look how it describes, dead men walking, like those in the tombs , yet the living cannot see this spiritual aspect, even though it's happening. Rtay said: thanks Equalizer21,Let me do a study first and I will reply to your post ok [Edited 3/6/2016 5:10:53 PM ]
3/6/2016 8:07:56 PM	Sheol,Hades,Hell
bigd9832 Chicago, IL 63, joined Oct. 2007	It's a matter of belief. I believe what the Scriptures say. I do not believe what the Catholic church says. The Catholic church is corrupt. CLV Gn 2:7 And forming is Yahweh Elohim the human of soil from the ground, and He is blowing into his nostrils the breath of the living, and becoming is the human a living soul.
3/7/2016 1:18:18 PM	Sheol,Hades,Hell
Equalizer21 Seattle, WA 53, joined Oct. 2014	Quote from Equalizer21: Thanks Rtay, i take the judgement of false teachers, very seriously, its not a game to me and not a competition. Rev 6 9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed if souls are dead, how can they speak like these? For that matter, how can they wear white robes? How can they perceive whats going on? How can they even think God is holy and true.........? Notice how they CRIED WITH A LOUD VOICE.!!! And I believe this. Hope nobody has a problem with that? If you do, your more than welcome to work in the spirit and correct me. 2 tim 24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, 25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, 26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.
3/7/2016 1:33:15 PM	Sheol,Hades,Hell
lmarcox2 Antonio de BiedmaMexico City Mexico 32, joined Jun. 2015	Dear bigd9832: I'm a Urantian & Protestant Christian. I did read all of your posts in this same topic. Please help me understand: What is the realm of the Unseen where the souls go after death???. Or would you please point me to the Scriptures that clarify this?. Thank you in advance. Quote from bigd9832: It's a matter of belief. I believe what the Scriptures say. I do not believe what the Catholic church says. The Catholic church is corrupt. CLV Gn 2:7 And forming is Yahweh Elohim the human of soil from the ground, and He is blowing into his nostrils the breath of the living, and becoming is the human a living soul.
3/7/2016 1:51:13 PM	Sheol,Hades,Hell
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 63, joined Feb. 2008	Louie makes a good point, one I never thought of before---hunan bodies need to sleep but souls do not need to sleep, and in fact our souls never sleep.
3/7/2016 2:07:57 PM	Sheol,Hades,Hell
bigd9832 Chicago, IL 63, joined Oct. 2007	Quote from lmarcox2: Dear bigd9832: I'm a Urantian & Protestant Christian. I did read all of your posts in this same topic. Please help me understand: The Soul Goes to the Unseen at Death https://DateHookup.dating/Thread-1443936.htm
3/7/2016 2:56:39 PM	Sheol,Hades,Hell
lmarcox2 Antonio de BiedmaMexico City Mexico 32, joined Jun. 2015	Quote from bigd9832: The Soul Goes to the Unseen at Death https://DateHookup.dating/Thread-1443936.htm I see. You may as well visit URANTIA Foundation which is located in Chicago, IL, your home place. From urantia.org: Urantia Foundation, 533 Diversey Parkway, Chicago, IL 60614 USA \| Tel: +1-773-525-3319; Fax: +1-773-525-7739 © Urantia Foundation. All rights reserved [Edited 3/7/2016 2:57:36 PM ]
3/7/2016 2:58:31 PM	Sheol,Hades,Hell
lmarcox2 Antonio de BiedmaMexico City Mexico 32, joined Jun. 2015	In order to research the URANTIA divine revelation, I mean. What do you say?.
3/7/2016 3:05:37 PM	Sheol,Hades,Hell
rtay Port Saint Lucie, FL 65, joined Aug. 2010	Quote from Equalizer21: And I believe this. Hope nobody has a problem with that? If you do, your more than welcome to work in the spirit and correct me. 2 tim 24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, 25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, 26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will. Great post Equalizer21 First, it was a gift from God,they were given a white robe. It's a sign of righteousness, a sign of blessedness, a sign of the beauty of holiness. The Greek term is a dazzling white robe of dignity and honor, reaches to the ground, stole from which we get the word stole. In mark 16:5 5Entering the tomb, they saw a young man sitting at the right, wearing a white robe; and they were amazed. Angels are Spiritual beings,this one is wearing a white robe.rt
3/7/2016 4:21:12 PM	Sheol,Hades,Hell
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 63, joined Feb. 2008	I unrepentant sinners hope there is no Hell.
3/7/2016 5:43:50 PM	Sheol,Hades,Hell
bigd9832 Chicago, IL 63, joined Oct. 2007	Quote from lmarcox2: You may as well visit URANTIA Foundation which is located in Chicago, IL, your home place. From urantia.org: I was there in 1976. Have you been to the I Am Temple? tray... there is no reason for you act like a child and put down other people,if you can't play nice go to another area in this forum.
3/7/2016 8:23:33 PM	Sheol,Hades,Hell
lmarcox2 Antonio de BiedmaMexico City Mexico 32, joined Jun. 2015	Quote from bigd9832: I was there in 1976. Have you been to the I Am Temple? What did you do there at the UF in 1976? What do you think or why do you reject the URANTIA revelation?. I don't know the I Am Temple because I'm not from the United States, I was born in Mexico.
3/8/2016 12:59:31 AM	Sheol,Hades,Hell
Equalizer21 Seattle, WA 53, joined Oct. 2014	Quote from rtay: Great post Equalizer21 First, it was a gift from God,they were given a white robe. It's a sign of righteousness, a sign of blessedness, a sign of the beauty of holiness. The Greek term is a dazzling white robe of dignity and honor, reaches to the ground, stole from which we get the word stole. In mark 16:5 5Entering the tomb, they saw a young man sitting at the right, wearing a white robe; and they were amazed. Angels are Spiritual beings,this one is wearing a white robe.rt Thanks rtay, You brought up some good points. It actually made me think and pray. So here's what I came up with. The robes of righteousness Jesus gives us , are they described as white? Here's some white garments. Revelation 19:8 And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. So i guess, we have layered garments in heaven? What color is the garment of praise? I think though, the angel white garment, is different, because, the saints get garments (clean and bright) for righteous acts. Besides even though man is lower than angels now, we will be higher in hierarchy in heaven. Although, someone long ago, posed a question to me long ago, about the Angel of the Lord. Wasn't just an angel as we think of them, but was a personification of Jesus, in Angel form???? Kind of like I say, the spirit is a personification of the soul. Yet, I don't believe his angel theory,what say you? Have you heard of that?.....I tried to study it a little bit. Any thoughts? God bless you brother, hope all is well?
3/8/2016 3:53:50 AM	Sheol,Hades,Hell
rtay Port Saint Lucie, FL 65, joined Aug. 2010	Quote from Equalizer21: Thanks rtay, You brought up some good points. It actually made me think and pray. So here's what I came up with. The robes of righteousness Jesus gives us , are they described as white? Here's some white garments. Revelation 19:8 And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. So i guess, we have layered garments in heaven? What color is the garment of praise? I think though, the angel white garment, is different, because, the saints get garments (clean and bright) for righteous acts. Besides even though man is lower than angels now, we will be higher in hierarchy in heaven. Although, someone long ago, posed a question to me long ago, about the Angel of the Lord. Wasn't just an angel as we think of them, but was a personification of Jesus, in Angel form???? Kind of like I say, the spirit is a personification of the soul. Yet, I don't believe his angel theory,what say you? Have you heard of that?.....I tried to study it a little bit. Any thoughts? God bless you brother, hope all is well? The Angel of the Lord is identified in Judges 6 as the Lord Himself (vv. 14, 16, 23, 25, 27). That is why He gladly accepted Gideon’s offering of worship (vv. 18–21)—something an ordinary angel would never do (cf. Revelation 22:8–9). When Gideon finally realized that it was the Lord Himself he had seen, he was certain he would die. When Gideon saw that He was the angel of the Lord, he said, “Alas, O Lord God! For now I have seen the angel of the Lord face to face.” The Lord said to him, “Peace to you; do not fear, you shall not die.” (Judges 6:22–23) The weight of biblical evidence indicates that the Angel of the Lord was the pre-incarnate Christ, the second member of the Trinity.(gty) Revelation 22:8–9 (NASB) I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things. But he * said to me, “Do not do that. I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God.” Genesis 16:7-13 7 Now the angel of the Lord found her by a spring of water in the wilderness, by the spring on the way to Shur. 13 Then she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her, “You are a God who sees”; for she said, “Have I even remained alive here after seeing Him?” God Bless, Stay in the Word. rt
3/8/2016 10:21:06 AM	Sheol,Hades,Hell
mindya Jerusalem Israel 63, joined Jan. 2009	Interesting article here: Sheol, Hades, and Gehenna One of the most crucial issues which determines our understanding of what the Bible teaches about death and the afterlife is the proper interpretation of such key terms as Sheol, Hades and Gehenna. No study of death is complete without a thorough understanding of these terms. SHEOL The Hebrew word Sheol is found 66 times in the Old Testament. While the Old Testament consistently refers to the body as going to the grave, it always refers to the soul or spirit of man as going to Sheol. The nature of Sheol and the condition of those in it is crucial to our understanding of what the Bible teaches about what happens to man after death. The Lexicographical Material The first step in understanding any ancient or foreign word is to check the lexicons, dictionaries, encyclopedias, etc., which deal with that language. Brown, Driver and Briggs based their A Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament on the work of Gesenius, one of the greatest Hebrew scholars who ever lived. They define Sheol as: “the underworld whither man descends at death” (p. 982.). They trace the origin of Sheol to either sha-al, which means the spirit world to which mediums directed their questions to the departed, or sha-al, which refers to the hollow place in the earth where the souls of men went at death. Langenscheidt’s Hebrew/English Dictionary to the Old Testament (p. 337) defines Sheol as: “netherworld, realm of the dead, Hades.” The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia in Vol. IV, p. 2761, defines Sheol as: “the unseen world, the state or abode of the dead, and is the equivalent of the Greek: Hades.” Keil and Delitzsch state that “Sheol denotes the place where departed souls are gathered after death; it is an infinitive form from sha-al, to demand, the demanding, applied to the place which inexorably summons all men into its shade.”1 The lexicographical evidence is so clear that the great Princeton scholar, B. B. Warfield; stated that with modern Hebrew scholars, there is no “hesitation to allow with all heartiness that Israel from the beginning of its recorded history cherished the most settled conviction of the persistence of the soul in life after death. The body is laid in the grave and the soul departs to Sheol.”2 George Eldon Ladd in The New Bible Dictionary (p. 380), comments: In the Old Testament, man does not cease to exist at death, but his soul descends to Sheol. Modern scholarship understands the word Sheol to refer to the place where the soul or spirit of man goes at death.3 None of the lexicographical literature defines Sheol as referring to the grave or to passing into nonexistence. Comparative Studies In order to understand what a certain word meant in an ancient language, it is sometimes helpful to find any parallel words in the other languages of that time. Thus comparative studies of Sheol have been done which demonstrate that Sheol’s parallels in other languages meant the place where the soul of man goes at death. No research has found a place where Sheol’s parallel means the grave or nonexistence. For example, The Ugaritic ars and Accadian su alu clearly refer to the netherworld.4 The Babylonians, Assyrians, Egyptians, and Greek parallels to Sheol clearly meant the place of departed spirits.5 The Ethiopian Si’ol cannot mean anything other than the netherworld, the place of conscious life after death.6 The Historical Context What is important about comparative studies is that they place biblical words in their historical context. The word Sheol should thus be understood in terms of what it meant in the Hebrew language and by its parallel in the other languages of that time. Why? When God wanted Israel to believe something which was unique and contrary to what the surrounding cultures believed, He always clearly condemned and forbade the pagan beliefs and then stressed the uniqueness of the new concept. For example, in order to establish monotheism, God repeatedly and clearly condemned the pagan concept of polytheism and stressed monotheism. While God clearly condemned polytheism in the Old Testament, at no time did He ever condemn belief in a conscious afterlife. At no time did God ever put forth the concept of annihilation or nonexistence as the fate of man’s soul at death. Also, when Israel had a unique and contrary belief, the pagan societies around Israel would use this belief as the grounds to persecute the Jews. Thus the Jews were persecuted for rejecting polytheism and believing in monotheism. Daniel’s three friends who were thrown into a fiery furnace are an excellent example of such persecution. Yet, where in recorded history did pagan religions or societies persecute the Jews because they denied a conscious afterlife? To think that the Jews could go against the universally held concept of a conscious afterlife and that the pagans would not seize upon this as a pretense for persecution is absurd. Since the universality of belief in a conscious afterlife is irrefutable, and there is no evidence that Israel deviated from this belief, we must assume that the Old Testament taught a conscious afterlife in Sheol as the fate of man’s soul or spirit. The Rabbinic Literature It is universally recognized by modern Talmudic scholars that Sheol never meant the grave or unconsciousness in rabbinic literature. Ginzburg states that in rabbinic writings one finds a consistent conviction that”there exists after this world a condition of happiness or unhappiness for an individual.”7 Guttman adds, “The Talmud, like the Apocryphal literature, knows of a kind of intermediate state of the soul between death and resurrection; true retribution will be dispensed only after the resurrection of the body. But along with this, we also find the fate in a retribution coming immediately after death and in a life of blessedness for the soul in the beyond.”8 The rabbinic tradition before, during, and after the time of Christ describes the soul departing the body and descending into Sheol at death.9 The rabbis consistently pictured both the righteous and the wicked as conscious after death.10 The evidence is so overwhelming that the classic Princeton theologian, Charles Hodge, stated, “That the Jews believed in a conscious life after death is beyond dispute.11 The annihilationists have never discovered any evidence that the majority of Jews believed that the soul was extinguished at death. There is no conflict in the rabbinic literature over this issue.12 full text: http://www.faithdefenders.com/articles/theology/sheol_hades_gehenna.html
3/8/2016 11:48:00 AM	Sheol,Hades,Hell
bigd9832 Chicago, IL 63, joined Oct. 2007	Jewish teachings on the subject of afterlife are sparse: The Torah, the most important Jewish text, has no clear reference to afterlife at all. https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/afterlife.html ************************************************************************ “I don’t want to attain immortality through my work. I want to attain immortality by not dying.” –Woody Allen Judaism regards death as an inevitable part of life. Just as we are born, so too we must die. The Talmud teaches, “Without asking you, you were formed, and without asking you, you were born, and without asking you, you live, and without asking you, you will die.” (Avot 4). Yet obviously speculation continued to abound among all peoples – Jews and non-Jews alike – so that over the centuries we have inherited a fascinating assortment of “traditional” Jewish opinions of the nature of life after death. http://ourki.org/what-do-jews-believe-about-life-after-death Rabbi Steven Carr Reuben, Ph.D. calls it speculation. ********************************************************************** There's a Jewish joke that says there's no Heaven or Hell: we all go to the same place when we die, where Moses and Rabbi Akiva give constant and everlasting classes on the Bible and the Talmud. For the righteous this is eternal bliss, while for the wicked this is eternal suffering. But that's a joke. What do Jews actually believe happens to them after death? There is no simple answer: at different times and in different places, Jews had different ideas. These varying thoughts were never reconciled or canonically decided. Thus, even today, Jews believe in different, often irreconcilable, theories of what life after death is like. read more: http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/features/.premium-1.638100 http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/features/.premium-1.638100 ********************************************************************** Judaism has from the Torah itself always spoken of a life following this one. The Torah speaks about what seems to be a physical place, called Sheol, to which one "goes down" following this life. A variety of different passages indicate that Sheol was probably though of as located in the center of the earth, although it is no ever formally described. What is clear is that this was a well-known concept amongst the ancient Israelites. It was not until the Pharisees (c. 100 B.C.E.) that the notion of a spiritual life after death developed in any meaningful way in Jewish thought. The Pharisees, who were the forerunners of the rabbis, taught that when the Torah spoke of reward for following God's ways, the reward would be forthcoming in an afterlife, Olam Ha-Ba (world to come), as they called it. - See more at: http://www.reformjudaism.org/judaism-what-believed-happen-someone-after-they-die#sthash.TQJaEqHv.dpuf http://www.reformjudaism.org/judaism-what-believed-happen-someone-after-they-die ************************************************************************ Growing up I was told that Jews don't believe in the afterlife. No heaven. No hell. No nothing. However, like most everything else I learned about Judaism growing up, this was incomplete. Although there are strains of modern Judaism that would argue against life after death, the vast majority of Judaism, Jewish history, Jewish theology and Jews themselves unequivocally believed in Olam Habah—the world to come. Yes, there is heaven. Although the Hebrew Bible devotes little time to speculating upon it, the Jewish tradition is replete with varying efforts and depictions of what the "world to come" might be. Some notions imagine God as Avenu Malkenu (Our Father and King) sitting in judgment, delivering reward or punishment within the heavenly court. Others imagine a supernal Beit Midrash (House of Study) where the Tzaddikim (Righteous) study Torah all “day” long. The more mystical Jewish traditions envision a ladder of consciousness, at the very top of which resides the ineffable: God beyond description. As you descend down the ladder, distinction sets in with arch-angels, angels, spirits and other divine beings all the way down to this world, where souls are coming and going, entering this world and leaving this world (and even a Jewish notion of reincarnation—returning to this world once again). http://www.jewishboston.com/Ask-A-Rabbi/blogs/5065-i-ve-always-read-that-jews-don-t-believe-in-the-concept-of-hell-is-that-true Again, speculation.
3/8/2016 11:48:46 AM	Sheol,Hades,Hell
bigd9832 Chicago, IL 63, joined Oct. 2007	cont. The Messianic Age The messianic age is a period in human history that will be initiated when the messiah comes. At that time the righteous dead will be resurrected, but the wicked will not. The messianic age will be a time of peace and the restoration of the land and organizations of Israel. Jewish sacred texts and literature have little to say about what happens after death. This may seem surprising to non-Jews, since Christian sacred texts and Islamic sacred texts - both of which have their foundations in Judaism - elaborate rather fully about the afterlife. (See Judaism beliefs) But the Jewish religion is much more focused on actions than beliefs, so it is actually to be expected that its prophets and sages have not spent as much time on speculations about the world to come as elaborations on the mitzvot to be performed in this life. (See Judaism fast facts) http://www.religionfacts.com/afterlife/judaism ************************************************************************ Many faiths have definitive teachings about the afterlife. But in answer to the question "What happens after we die?" the Torah, our most important religious text, is surprisingly silent. Nowhere does it discuss the afterlife in detail. Over the centuries a few possible descriptions of the afterlife have been incorporated into Jewish thought. However there is no definitively Jewish explanation for what happens after we die. Why Doesn’t the Torah Discuss the Afterlife? No one knows exactly why the Torah doesn't discuss the afterlife. Instead, the Torah focuses on "Olam Ha Ze," which means "this world." Rabbi Joseph Telushkin believes that this focus on the here and now is not only intentional but directly related to the Israelite exodus from Egypt. http://judaism.about.com/od/judaismbasics/a/Afterlife-In-Judaism-Jewish-Beliefs.htm ********************************************************************** Let’s start with the most controversial belief – reincarnation. It may sound surprising, but Jewish beliefs do include reincarnation but not in every case. In the Jewish religion there is a belief that we all have a purpose on earth and we will live until we fulfill our purpose. This does not mean we are immortal until we have done what we are set on earth to do. What this means is we will reincarnate as many times as necessary until our purpose has been served. If you can complete what God has planned for you within one lifetime there is no reason to reincarnate. So what about heaven? Jews believe there is a place where people are reunited with others that have passed. This place is called Gan Eden, which means Garden of Eden. This is where people who are not evil go after they have spent their time in Gehinnom. From a spiritual perspective, this is the place everyone longs to go. Reaching Gan Eden is not the end of our afterlife. The ending is yet to come. It is called Olam Ha-Ba. It is considered the messianic age, and means the world to come or when the Messiah comes. Everyone who has proven righteousness will get to experience this. This experience is supposed to be perfect. http://www.examiner.com/article/does-judaism-believe-life-after-death ************************************************************************ Orthodox Jews believe that we sleep until the Messiah's resurrection. After that comes the Messiah's Kingdom. Many Jews speak of this as the "after-life." As there are thousands of Jewish sects, there are many different beliefs on what happens after death.
3/8/2016 12:48:25 PM	Sheol,Hades,Hell
lmarcox2 Antonio de BiedmaMexico City Mexico 32, joined Jun. 2015	Quote from lmarcox2: What did you do there at the UF in 1976? What do you think or why do you reject the URANTIA revelation?. I don't know the I Am Temple because I'm not from the United States, I was born in Mexico. please answer me, bigd9832.
3/8/2016 11:02:51 PM	Sheol,Hades,Hell
isna_la_wica Brantford, ON 61, joined Mar. 2012	Quote from mindya: Interesting article here: Sheol, Hades, and Gehenna One of the most crucial issues which determines our understanding of what the Bible teaches about death and the afterlife is the proper interpretation of such key terms as Sheol, Hades and Gehenna. No study of death is complete without a thorough understanding of these terms. SHEOL The Hebrew word Sheol is found 66 times in the Old Testament. While the Old Testament consistently refers to the body as going to the grave, it always refers to the soul or spirit of man as going to Sheol. The nature of Sheol and the condition of those in it is crucial to our understanding of what the Bible teaches about what happens to man after death. The Lexicographical Material The first step in understanding any ancient or foreign word is to check the lexicons, dictionaries, encyclopedias, etc., which deal with that language. Brown, Driver and Briggs based their A Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament on the work of Gesenius, one of the greatest Hebrew scholars who ever lived. They define Sheol as: “the underworld whither man descends at death” (p. 982.). They trace the origin of Sheol to either sha-al, which means the spirit world to which mediums directed their questions to the departed, or sha-al, which refers to the hollow place in the earth where the souls of men went at death. Langenscheidt’s Hebrew/English Dictionary to the Old Testament (p. 337) defines Sheol as: “netherworld, realm of the dead, Hades.” The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia in Vol. IV, p. 2761, defines Sheol as: “the unseen world, the state or abode of the dead, and is the equivalent of the Greek: Hades.” Keil and Delitzsch state that “Sheol denotes the place where departed souls are gathered after death; it is an infinitive form from sha-al, to demand, the demanding, applied to the place which inexorably summons all men into its shade.”1 The lexicographical evidence is so clear that the great Princeton scholar, B. B. Warfield; stated that with modern Hebrew scholars, there is no “hesitation to allow with all heartiness that Israel from the beginning of its recorded history cherished the most settled conviction of the persistence of the soul in life after death. The body is laid in the grave and the soul departs to Sheol.”2 George Eldon Ladd in The New Bible Dictionary (p. 380), comments: In the Old Testament, man does not cease to exist at death, but his soul descends to Sheol. Modern scholarship understands the word Sheol to refer to the place where the soul or spirit of man goes at death.3 None of the lexicographical literature defines Sheol as referring to the grave or to passing into nonexistence. Comparative Studies In order to understand what a certain word meant in an ancient language, it is sometimes helpful to find any parallel words in the other languages of that time. Thus comparative studies of Sheol have been done which demonstrate that Sheol’s parallels in other languages meant the place where the soul of man goes at death. No research has found a place where Sheol’s parallel means the grave or nonexistence. For example, The Ugaritic ars and Accadian su alu clearly refer to the netherworld.4 The Babylonians, Assyrians, Egyptians, and Greek parallels to Sheol clearly meant the place of departed spirits.5 The Ethiopian Si’ol cannot mean anything other than the netherworld, the place of conscious life after death.6 The Historical Context What is important about comparative studies is that they place biblical words in their historical context. The word Sheol should thus be understood in terms of what it meant in the Hebrew language and by its parallel in the other languages of that time. Why? When God wanted Israel to believe something which was unique and contrary to what the surrounding cultures believed, He always clearly condemned and forbade the pagan beliefs and then stressed the uniqueness of the new concept. For example, in order to establish monotheism, God repeatedly and clearly condemned the pagan concept of polytheism and stressed monotheism. While God clearly condemned polytheism in the Old Testament, at no time did He ever condemn belief in a conscious afterlife. At no time did God ever put forth the concept of annihilation or nonexistence as the fate of man’s soul at death. Also, when Israel had a unique and contrary belief, the pagan societies around Israel would use this belief as the grounds to persecute the Jews. Thus the Jews were persecuted for rejecting polytheism and believing in monotheism. Daniel’s three friends who were thrown into a fiery furnace are an excellent example of such persecution. Yet, where in recorded history did pagan religions or societies persecute the Jews because they denied a conscious afterlife? To think that the Jews could go against the universally held concept of a conscious afterlife and that the pagans would not seize upon this as a pretense for persecution is absurd. Since the universality of belief in a conscious afterlife is irrefutable, and there is no evidence that Israel deviated from this belief, we must assume that the Old Testament taught a conscious afterlife in Sheol as the fate of man’s soul or spirit. The Rabbinic Literature It is universally recognized by modern Talmudic scholars that Sheol never meant the grave or unconsciousness in rabbinic literature. Ginzburg states that in rabbinic writings one finds a consistent conviction that”there exists after this world a condition of happiness or unhappiness for an individual.”7 Guttman adds, “The Talmud, like the Apocryphal literature, knows of a kind of intermediate state of the soul between death and resurrection; true retribution will be dispensed only after the resurrection of the body. But along with this, we also find the fate in a retribution coming immediately after death and in a life of blessedness for the soul in the beyond.”8 The rabbinic tradition before, during, and after the time of Christ describes the soul departing the body and descending into Sheol at death.9 The rabbis consistently pictured both the righteous and the wicked as conscious after death.10 The evidence is so overwhelming that the classic Princeton theologian, Charles Hodge, stated, “That the Jews believed in a conscious life after death is beyond dispute.11 The annihilationists have never discovered any evidence that the majority of Jews believed that the soul was extinguished at death. There is no conflict in the rabbinic literature over this issue.12 full text: http://www.faithdefenders.com/articles/theology/sheol_hades_gehenna.html That is a good read mindya. And makes a lot of sense.
3/9/2016 12:06:12 AM	Sheol,Hades,Hell
isna_la_wica Brantford, ON 61, joined Mar. 2012

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