Cryogenic Ethics

12/2/2008 3:04:43 AM	Cryogenic Ethics
burnkitty Fayetteville, AR age: 35	Amongst the projects that keep me busy from week to week is a movie script me and my friends are preparing to produce. Fun stuff that. In this particular plot, a funeral is being held for a person who has been cryogenically frozen. But after the funeral and reception are over, his previous roommate comes home to find the ex-cryogen in the living room watching “Pinky And The Brain” cartoons. The inevitable explanation he gives in a nonchalant manner is that he was awoken in the future, got bored, illegally used a time machine, and zapped himself back in time to our present day. Because he interrupted the past, or our present, the butterfly effect prevents that future from happening and thus keeps him exempt from prosecution by future authorities. The whole of the movie is comical while hitting many philosophies and theologies, even giving religion a spin. Most of the research I’ve been conducting is what the legal precedent is when such a claim is made with modern day law. This part of the writing process is my favorite by far. Still, there are many religious discussions to be had to best tackle all the bases. While the ex-cryogen’s best friend is a Southern Baptist Preacher who gives the eulogy in the beginning of the flick, the main character himself is agnostic. They discuss what impact this has on the religion itself, which actually turns out to be none at all. The ex-cryogen is very vague when asked direct questions about what the future was like in 4898… “There were lots of robots.” And that’s about all one get’s out of him. But when asked questions by his preacher buddy he loves to point out, “I still didn’t see a ‘rapture’ anywhere.” Referencing the butterfly effect, the preacher comes back with “Well, don’t forget, you came from A future, not THE future!” As the characters have a mutual respect, they keep it humorous, and that’s the way I want the movie to stay. So let’s put the movie aside for a moment. As part of my research, I’d like to ask the religious and non-religious alike: What are your thoughts about people being cryogenically frozen in aspects of whether they should? I know all the methods and the science behind it. I’ve researched it to death… so to speak. I realize the problem of relying on the future to “iron out the details” involving this subject, so the ‘how’ isn’t my question. No matter what the belief we hold over the possibilities, people are still being cryogenically frozen as opposed to the usual disposal methods. Do you believe that this conflicts with religious ideologies or any ethical concepts and why? Example: “The money used to keep a body frozen could be used to feed an underprivileged family for years.” One last thing, keep it civil. This is merely a question in which you can agree to disagree. If you’re looking for a thread to bash others for one’s beliefs, as tends to be the norm with this particular forum, find another thread. Any religious or lack thereofs are welcome to discuss this subject in a cultured manner, but all others will be blocked. I apologize for this, but that has gotten so ‘Busted Old’ and I’m aiming for ‘New Hotness’ here. Busted Old. New Hotness. Meet singles in your area here at DateHookup.dating, we're 100% free for everything! Join now!
12/2/2008 12:02:40 PM	Cryogenic Ethics
julietromeo Paradise Inn, WA age: 60	if i had the money you could freeze me. don't much care for the other option.
12/2/2008 4:21:14 PM	Cryogenic Ethics
shakti Red Deer, AB age: 37	So let’s put the movie aside for a moment. As part of my research, I’d like to ask the religious and non-religious alike: What are your thoughts about people being cryogenically frozen in aspects of whether they should? I know all the methods and the science behind it. I’ve researched it to death… so to speak. I realize the problem of relying on the future to “iron out the details” involving this subject, so the ‘how’ isn’t my question. No matter what the belief we hold over the possibilities, people are still being cryogenically frozen as opposed to the usual disposal methods. Do you believe that this conflicts with religious ideologies or any ethical concepts and why? Example: “The money used to keep a body frozen could be used to feed an underprivileged family for years.” Hmmm.. I have literally never thought of this before, cool question! From my perspective, since there is the means and opportunity and people are free to make the choice, I see nothing amiss or immoral about it whatsoever. But from a spiritual stand point I think it is hopeful to the point of idiocy and misses the entire point. I believe in reincarnation and cannot understand why someone would cling to a body like an old suit when it's out of style and quite clearly time for a new one. But hey, I like to keep up with fashion and am all about spitiual evolution, not stagnation ; ) One last thing, keep it civil. This is merely a question in which you can agree to disagree. If you’re looking for a thread to bash others for one’s beliefs, as tends to be the norm with this particular forum, find another thread. Any religious or lack thereofs are welcome to discuss this subject in a cultured manner, but all others will be blocked. I apologize for this, but that has gotten so ‘Busted Old’ and I’m aiming for ‘New Hotness’ here. Busted Old. New Hotness. You sure have a way with words... [Edited 12/2/2008 4:22:31 PM PST]
12/2/2008 6:29:02 PM	Cryogenic Ethics
dunrich Brantford, ON age: 55	Do you believe that this conflicts with religious ideologies or any ethical concepts and why? Example: “The money used to keep a body frozen could be used to feed an underprivileged family for years.” I as well see nothing that is morally wrong with doing this. Many leave money to frivolous causes , although it would be nice to see it better spent. Hey, our deaths usually are reflected by the life we have lived. A selfish type person , wanting to cling to the possibility that he might be able to retain what he has, would probably be most likely to be interested in this. Me ? I believe in evoloution in a way, we die, we will get to escape the confines of our physical bodies. Since, I do not believe we actually die, more like "morphing " into an evolved being that. To quote the WW2 pilot / poet in The Canadian Air Force, I am actually excited to think I will be able to reach up and touch the face of God one day. Not just know about love, but actually be part of it. Leave that, come back into this body with all its scars and restrictions? Wars, divorce ? Not bloody likely! But if someone wants to do this? No problem, I am all for freedom of religion, beliefs and most inportant , dreams. Cool Movie idea, love it. Good luck with the project!
12/3/2008 3:44:16 AM	Cryogenic Ethics
burnkitty Fayetteville, AR age: 35	So far, so good people. My personal stance is one of financial responsibility. In my studies on this subject, there is an option that allows for a set of C.D.s to be established to pay for the constant upkeep. What people are running into is family members refusing to pay the fees for a dead relative as Poly has mentioned. In my opinion, the family members are in the right. How presumptuous is that to assume centuries worth of debt to be paid by people who never met you? It's downright inconsiderate if you ask me. Thus the option to have a $100,000.00 C.D. in place for each month of the year for over five years(total of 60 C.D.s or $6,000,000.00 worth). As each month turns over, the C.D. intrest is split in half, 50% for the Cryogenic Storage fees and 50% back into the C.D. with the origonal funds rolling another five years. Well... it's a lot of paperwork to say the least, but it is responsible. I can't quite say I wouldn't be interested myself. To me, we have all the time in the universe to be dead and see what, if anything at all, lies beyond. No hurry here, yo! End of line.
12/3/2008 8:09:34 AM	Cryogenic Ethics
dumbdotcom Debert, NS age: 82	Before I read the entire thread, the money issue immediately came to mind also. I think that only an extremely wealthy person could afford this, and I presume that this would be the underlying factor to even think of freezing your body in the first place. Greed. They have amassed so much wealth that the thoughts of being unable to spend it is unthinkable. OR, they have agreed to be a science experiment to see if cryogenics has a possibility of actually working. Or maybe, they're staunch atheists that just want to see the future...I don't know. My own personal beliefs in reincarnation nullify this idea, for me, even if I had the money! Egads, not that I have any regrets, but the thought of just continuing this life, forever and ever, gives me the heebie jeebies. Who or what do I have to work out regarding my particular issues with if they're all dead and gone to begin with? But then again, maybe in my warped sense of oversoul, in a completely ironic twist, I set myself up to face this question. Aarrrgggghhh, the possibilities are endless. lol, glad I am going to be cremated to avoid such mental gymnastics in the future, lol lol There was a movie about this. It is called "Late for Dinner" I think. It was really really good. Cheers, Raven
12/3/2008 8:15:54 AM	Cryogenic Ethics
dumbdotcom Debert, NS age: 82	Hey, sorry to consecutively post, but I googled "Late for Dinner". Review Summary W.D. Richter directed this comedy-drama in the spirit of Back to the Future and Peggy Sue Got Married. The film opens in Santa Fe in 1962, where Willie (Brian Wimmer) and Joy Husband (Marcia Gay Harden) are a cute couple living in familial bliss with their five-year-old daughter. When evil land-developer Bob Freeman (Peter Gallagher) tries to turn their bliss into blight, a gun goes off and Willie flees to Los Angeles with his dim-witted brother-in-law Frank (Peter Berg), convinced he has committed murder. They run into crazed scientist Dr. Chilblains (Bo Brundin), who cryogenically freezes the fugitives. Twenty-nine years later they are defrosted, and Willie, who has only aged a day, goes back to Santa Fe with Frank to seek out his wife and daughter, discovering they have aged and gone on with their lives without him. ~ Paul Brenner, All Movie Guide Full New York Times Review » There is no spiritual twist at all to this movie. Cheers!
12/3/2008 8:28:04 AM	Cryogenic Ethics
madrcat Freeport, IL age: 53	Money and Greed. H'mmm. What about space and technology? The whole concept was always quite amusing to me. I think I'd rather invest my money in the illegal time machine he uses to come back. Let me ask this? If you invest in a time machine under the same gullible idea that the creators and proprietors of such, will come back from the future and cure you in your present life, or just take you to the future, isn't that a more viable option than wasting dead space, taxing your poor relatives and using up vital resources for umpteen years? Now I hope I'm not breaking the rules here... but what is the consideration concerning the bodies soul at time of death. I think a humorous twist to the story would be to have the guy come back and find that he no longer has a soul. What consequences would that manifest?
12/3/2008 4:39:22 PM	Cryogenic Ethics
dunrich Brantford, ON age: 55	My own personal beliefs in reincarnation nullify this idea, for me, even if I had the money! Egads, not that I have any regrets, but the thought of just continuing this life, forever and ever, gives me the heebie jeebies. Who or what do I have to work out regarding my particular issues with if they're all dead and gone to begin with? But then again, maybe in my warped sense of oversoul, in a completely ironic twist, I set myself up to face this question. Aarrrgggghhh, the possibilities are endless. Yet Ravin, I am scared stiff of reincarnation for those same reasons. Sheesh, over and over again, how freaking depressing is that?Ground hog day, with no chance of escaping? Where are the walk ins, help your self to a damaged old body, still reliable but might have Liver issues some where in the future! I dont want to come back here, do it all over again and again. Sheesh trying to wear my self out in this life, so there is nothing left. Dont get me wrong, I love life, but sure dont need to do the same thing over again. Do you have any idea how painful puberty is for a boy.lol? Seriously, i find the whole thing quite depressing. The same with Karma, I fought my bloody wars, jsut want to forget, not even forgive. Some body done me wrong? I dont want Karma meaning they have to be punished in the next life, sheesh, foget it, you got me good. All right who is buying the first round?
12/4/2008 3:22:18 AM	Cryogenic Ethics
dumbdotcom Debert, NS age: 82	^^^No Silly. Reincarnation isn't about doing the same old same old exactly. But it is sort of like Groundhog day.... that movie was great too..... Just keep on coming back til you get it right sort of thing. So soul says to soul, ok, I was a man last time, wife was dealing with own stuff that maybe I didn't really help all that much with....hmmm, maybe I'll deal with her stuff this time and then I'll know what to do in four/five lifetimes from now.... You have to remember that time is only here in our reality for us, but in actuality, there is only Now. lol, you should read some of the Seth stuff, where it expands on multiple selves and aspects of self, cool stuff there. You limit possibilities with your perception of reincarnation. I see it as a wonderful thing, designed so we can experience everything, and FEEL the emotions, rather than just have a working knowledge, and then bring it back to the ALL. And this is every emotion, even the good stuff! I think when one finally realises to focus on the bad, even when one is in the midst of it, is self defeating. Quite the road to get to focussing on the positive, but oh so much more satisfying, and then one learns that one's reality is indeed created by our perceptions. "Thoughts are things" is no longer an adage from crazy new age whackjobs, for me, but a working truth in my life. Where are the walk ins, help your self to a damaged old body, still reliable but might have Liver issues some where in the future! My understanding of "Walk-Ins" is that they have a specific goal in mind and do not wish to go through the childhood and painful teenage years. (On our other site, I think Rita showed a good example) But the premise is that the original soul has long gone, of its' own volition, and graciously left the body to another who wishes to only complete a specific goal. OOOOOO, so majorly got off topic!!! Sorry 'bout that.... Was thinking about the topic last night and what a wonderfully delicious idea it is! Most of the research I’ve been conducting is what the legal precedent is when such a claim is made with modern day law. There is a great deal of luck involved with the premise that monetary arrangements would be maintained for the subject to be cared for while frozen, isn't there? But when asked questions by his preacher buddy he loves to point out, “I still didn’t see a ‘rapture’ anywhere.” LOL LOL, maybe the future Westboro folks helped him to steal the time machine in exchange that he prove that life everlasting is what you make of it!!! And maybe, our hero has made quite a bit of stops along the way with his time machine to influence religious crusaders, get copies of the books written back in the day, met with Buddha, Mohammed and Jesus, and becomes the "real" authority on such subjects? Maybe, while in cryogenic sleep, he has all sorts of experiences like Dante? Maybe it's all a dream.... If you invest in a time machine under the same gullible idea that the creators and proprietors of such, will come back from the future and cure you in your present life, or just take you to the future, isn't that a more viable option than wasting dead space, taxing your poor relatives and using up vital resources for umpteen years? lol lol party pooper. Good point though.... what is the consideration concerning the bodies soul at time of death. I think a humorous twist to the story would be to have the guy come back and find that he no longer has a soul. What consequences would that manifest? Is it possible for the body to not have a soul? I don't know. OP, thanks for giving me a fun scenario to ponder. Cheers, Raven
12/4/2008 6:13:11 AM	Cryogenic Ethics
dunrich Brantford, ON age: 55	You limit possibilities with your perception of reincarnation. I see it as a wonderful thing, designed so we can experience everything, and FEEL the emotions, rather than just have a working knowledge, and then bring it back to the ALL. Yet I think we will eolve, {lol, wont mention flying again,}. This life here as we know it is kind of like Kindergarden, preparing us for some thing way better. Here the way we are, we only use something like 20 % of our brains capacity? Think about the possibilities of having 100 more senses than we do now. Guy coming back with out a soul? This is a concept I ran acrioss just recently while reading the "Other Bible" a collection of non cannonized books and myths, trying to remember which book it was in. It described the " Gods" as having spirit but not a soul. When they could not get the fist human they made to come to life, The ONE as he was called, breathed life into us. We then had a soul, and the "other Gods " were jelous as they had "spirit but no soul". Will have to find the passage and post it. Yes I believe it is possible, to be alive and with out a soul. ( some reason I am thinking of my ex right now, lol) To the Op, this would be an intersting angle to your story.
12/7/2008 8:22:08 AM	Cryogenic Ethics
burnkitty Fayetteville, AR age: 35	I will probably bring the soul discussion to the movie ever so briefly, but in application of cryogenics we find a problem... What exactly is a soul? One may say that a soul is the accumulation of one's memories and choices made in their lifetime. Another may indicate that a soul is something shared by all things in this universe. No matter how it is interpreted, no one I know personally has actually ever seen a soul. What is the mass of a soul? What is the composition? Is there really even a soul, or is it only our wishfull thinking that we are not merely just the sum of our parts? Without a common frame of reference, it would be hard to say. Would a body brought back to life abruptly cause a soul to be sucked back to the body by some invisible string, or mayhaps split in two had this soul found a new body to live? So many angles...
12/7/2008 9:10:21 AM	Cryogenic Ethics
dunrich Brantford, ON age: 55	What is the mass of a soul? In a movie, it is what the writer wants it to be. In real life, it weighs about 1 lb. Back in he late 70`s I think it was , a study was done. They equipped a room where the whole floor was a scale. Then they got voluteers, who had terminal conditions, to die in the room. In every case, when death happened , a pound was loss. Where did it go? Body fluids evacuating, were still in the room. This was a long time ago, my memory might be off on the exact weight.But I remember it being around a pound. [Edited 12/7/2008 9:11:19 AM PST]
12/7/2008 9:40:32 AM	Cryogenic Ethics
freezinoutside Scotts, MI age: 56	I guess I don't have any ethical or religious issues with all of this. The main problem I do have with cryogenics, though, is that the frozen person isn't first vacuumed packed in some kind of plastic to seal in flavor freshness just in case there are hungry cannibals living in the far future.
12/8/2008 2:40:31 PM	Cryogenic Ethics
madrcat Freeport, IL age: 53	Quote from dunrich: In a movie, it is what the writer wants it to be. In real life, it weighs about 1 lb. Back in he late 70`s I think it was , a study was done. They equipped a room where the whole floor was a scale. Then they got voluteers, who had terminal conditions, to die in the room. In every case, when death happened , a pound was loss. Where did it go? Body fluids evacuating, were still in the room. This was a long time ago, my memory might be off on the exact weight.But I remember it being around a pound. I'm not sure when the movie was done, but the title says it all: 21 grams. Snopes talks about some work a guy did in the 1900's in case anyone is interested. Seems pretty inconclusive to me. http://www.snopes.com/religion/soulweight.asp
12/8/2008 3:08:56 PM	Cryogenic Ethics
sharedmercy Fort Wayne, IN age: 54	Hello. Since I am a believer in Almighty God and His ways and not a believer in reincarnation, I don't have an opinion. It is isteresting to read others thoughts on this subject though. TY for letting me post. Blessings all
12/8/2008 10:21:34 PM	Cryogenic Ethics
burnkitty Fayetteville, AR age: 35	The amount of weight lost is 21 grams, yes, and no one has a direct explaination of this particular event as of yet. However, it seems some are quick to fill the unexplained with what is refered to as the "God Of The Gaps", which is to say that anything not immediately explained by science must thus be a result of some supernatural element. An example of this is saying that headaches are the result of "unclean spirits", which had been an actual belief in earlier times. Yet the more we learn of the world around us, the shorter the gap becomes. Now of course this is not to say that a soul leaving a body couldn't be a relevant reason, but the movie 21 Grams tried too hard to make it the "obvious conclusion". Nevertheless, it is an interesting science finding. If anyone hasn't reviewed this information before, definitely check it out when you get some free time on your hands. As far as the flavor lock bags for the canabals of the future thing goes... well, the population is only going to grow and grow... we may not have all the food we need for future generations... it would be insensitive of us to ignore their needs... I am so ripping off that idea! Heh!
12/8/2008 10:31:43 PM	Cryogenic Ethics
polyaes Portland, OR age: 34	Weighing physically a metaphysical/theological idea, such as the soul, is as about as brilliant, as dumb.
12/8/2008 10:47:02 PM	Cryogenic Ethics
madrcat Freeport, IL age: 53	Quote from burnkitty: The amount of weight lost is 21 grams, yes, and no one has a direct explaination of this particular event as of yet. However, it seems some are quick to fill the unexplained with what is refered to as the "God Of The Gaps", which is to say that anything not immediately explained by science must thus be a result of some supernatural element. An example of this is saying that headaches are the result of "unclean spirits", which had been an actual belief in earlier times. Yet the more we learn of the world around us, the shorter the gap becomes. Now of course this is not to say that a soul leaving a body couldn't be a relevant reason, but the movie 21 Grams tried too hard to make it the "obvious conclusion". Nevertheless, it is an interesting science finding. If anyone hasn't reviewed this information before, definitely check it out when you get some free time on your hands. As far as the flavor lock bags for the canabals of the future thing goes... well, the population is only going to grow and grow... we may not have all the food we need for future generations... it would be insensitive of us to ignore their needs... I am so ripping off that idea! Heh! Too late- wasn't that movie called Soylent Green? Didn't need bags, just soup for the crackers! Now back to my soul question. If as so many believe, a soul is a form of energy, then once it leaves your body at time of death, I can not foresee it having a homing signal just in case you come back! One more reason why I'd buy stock in the Time machine over Cryo! Then again, I wonder... maybe we already have a lot of Cryo people walking around? There is a lot to be said for folks without a soul... Maybe they have their own secret society, like the Masons, or the Baptists? (Just kiddin' Dunrich!! ) [Edited 12/8/2008 10:47:57 PM PST]
12/9/2008 10:12:23 AM	Cryogenic Ethics
burnkitty Fayetteville, AR age: 35	I could see the NDE(Near Death Experience) being discussed in great detail, but then I've never heard the subject put better than in the movie... Star Trek IV of all places! I remember it was a side conversation that McCoy was having with Spock on his brush with being dead. McCoy: "Perhaps we could cover a little philosophical ground. Life... Death... Life. Things of that nature." Spock: "I did not have time on Vulcan to review the philosophical disciplines." McCoy: "C'mon Spock, it's me, McCoy. You really have gone where no man's gone before. Can't you tell me what it felt like?" Spock: "It would be impossible to discuss the subject without a common frame of reference." McCoy: "You're joking!" Spock: "A joke... is a... story with a humorous climax?" McCoy: "You mean I have to DIE to discuss your insights on death?!" Spock: "Forgive me, doctor. I am receiving a number of distress calls." McCoy: "I don't doubt it." I only know a couple of people who died and lived to tell about it. Specifically one of them talked about feeling he was viewing the universe as merely a point and that he was more peaceful than could be described. The other didn't see anything. I wonder what a cryogen would tell you, were one to live. If there were a blissful afterlife and you had to come back, that would more than piss you off I'd imagine. But then... if you were frozen, you'd only have yourself to blame in all likelyhood. If you didn't see a thing however, then... "Hey! It's good to be back! Hell, it's good to be anywhere!"
12/16/2008 8:11:56 AM	Cryogenic Ethics
madrcat Freeport, IL age: 53	I just wanted to resurrect <-- (pun there) this thread for one last thought. Just read an article on MSN about the number of people taking cell phones with them to the grave. Not so that they can be "saved by the bell", but just as a momento. However it would be hilarious, if when your guy is brought back to life in either the future or the past, if he had a cell phone and it kept ringing. Now who could possibly be calling him??
12/19/2008 5:40:08 AM	Cryogenic Ethics
burnkitty Fayetteville, AR age: 35	Heh! It'd have to be a bill collector, yo! Even if death isn't certain in his case, taxes still remain!
12/19/2008 12:36:35 PM	Cryogenic Ethics
omega406 Chicago, IL age: 32	All movies are man crafts, what can movies do for me or them? most movies excpet educational, it destroy people behaviors and their understading for they become prisoners of the imaginable world, and they try to live it. i dont like watch movies for they make feel dumb, i do prefer documents, scientist or historian, or cultural opposite junk movies that ruined our morals, and we became sick we dont have brain to choose what usefull , for me i advice parents not let children watch tvs . [Edited 12/19/2008 12:37:01 PM PST]
12/19/2008 6:52:12 PM	Cryogenic Ethics
dunrich Brantford, ON age: 55	However it would be hilarious, if when your guy is brought back to life in either the future or the past, if he had a cell phone and it kept ringing. Now who could possibly be calling him?? Kids, they need a ride or money, who else?

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