| 4/27/2009 9:27:49 PM |
Suicide - A Business Decision |
|
d_voted
Winnipeg, MB
age: 56
|
It always interests me what others, who have a different apriori premise have to say about rather contentious issues socially, politically or personally.
It might be well to note here that I am a person who believes that Jesus was the Christ and that there is a God (as well as a Holy Spirit). Therefore I am well acquainted with the Judeo-Christian perspective on suicide.
That being said it seems odd that suicide is illegal. Most insurance companies will have a clause which frees them from any payouts if the death is due to suicide and happens within a two year period of making out the claim. I suppose they don't consider suicide something that one might be patient about.
In many situations the giving of one's life for some 'higher cause' is considered noble and self-sacrificing. This is true as we, as a society remember on November 11 the ultimate sacrifice that was paid by soldiers in combat. This is also true in cases where someone runs out in front of a car and pushes someone else out of the path of the vehicle. Numerous other cases, Ghandi's starvation for the cause of passive resistance against British Occupation of India on a political scale is another example.
Would it not then be a totally 'reasonable' decision to end one's own life in order to secure the future financial security of someone else? As we all get older it seems that more and more care is needed from a medical system that is already overburdened. The costs associated with this may be diminished by lots of us older folks just packing it in. The maintenance of a home or apartment as well as food and transportation in our ever decreasing financial times would be an asset to the general social fabric as more could be spent on schools and other infrastructure.
In fact, in order to get the biggest bang for the buck as it were, perhaps a visit to a methamphetemine lab or a crack house wearing a dynamite vest might prove to be of great advantage to the societal fabric as well - taking out some vermin as we leave. Perhaps this is too much like our fanatic Muslim friends.
Getting back to the individual's rights. The woman has command over her own body. That is an apriori premise for the argument of abortion. Does it not follow that if the child in her womb is going to be a burden then also the elderly may also be viewed that way? Particularly if the elderly have no real interest in anything other than the welfare of some other party/parties. The most useful and productive years are behind them now so what is the big deal? We could even support it by making a game show out of it. You know - kind of like spin the bottle but with bullets. Or maybe that game where the people go around in a circle and one chair is removed except in this game only one chair is electrified - ZAP - done (or rather well-done).
Is there any moral or philosophical objection to the idea (other than the religious ones) which would refute this argument as both logical and reasonable.
I know someone will say, "You first" so I've already said that.
Show me if there is some error in my thinking from a purely secular view point.
Thanks - Just curious.
keep groovin'
|
| 4/28/2009 9:27:30 AM |
Suicide - A Business Decision |
|
skunkbreath
Saint James, MO
age: 90
|
You very early admit to being delusional, illogical and deceptive, and the remainder of your post follows in that line. The mocking of very difficult and emotional life decisions that you do not agree with because of your perverse beliefs shows the ugly superiority of a conservative, thuggish, spiritual terrorist.
""Believing in Hell must distort every judgment on this life.""~-- Cyril Connolly,
And from my experience, those with conservative personalities, corrupted by a perverse ideology, wallow in their evil with pride. And no amount of logic will penetrate that wall of self-righteous evil.
|
| 4/28/2009 12:00:38 PM |
Suicide - A Business Decision |
|
19maria50
Woodbury, NJ
age: 59
|
WOW SkunkBreath,
You said...and said it good....
This was very deep reading for me and I am not up on all the fancy words but I did get a very eerie feeling when I read this thread.
I am so glad he is not my son or grandson...so as I get older and loss my mind he then talks me into suicide?? for the benefit of Who??? it looks to me the living benefit.
I am having a tough enough time trying to put down my poor pooch who has been with me for 15 years. I can see she is now suffering but I don't want to take away any lasting good moments she may have.
 This is mind boggling and don't  even associate women and abortions to try and mellow or lay a veil over what you are trying to say. And noting that you believe in God doesn't shed any light or make your view point seem right to me....
[Edited 4/28/2009 12:03:25 PM PST]
|
| 4/28/2009 1:02:04 PM |
Suicide - A Business Decision |
|
aposorichie
Berwyn, IL
age: 53
|
Well of course suicide comes when someone has lost faith and all hope. So it is a symptom of a faithless and perverse society..or generation whatever. But there are other symptoms to be sure of which you well know..and more are sure to come. Your post is as prophetic as it is wise sir.
[Edited 4/28/2009 1:07:15 PM PST]
|
| 4/28/2009 4:42:17 PM |
Suicide - A Business Decision |
|
freezinoutside
Scotts, MI
age: 55
|
Abortion should be illegal -- women always need other people telling them what to do. 
|
| 4/28/2009 9:10:10 PM |
Suicide - A Business Decision |
|
d_voted
Winnipeg, MB
age: 56
|
You very early admit to being delusional, illogical and deceptive, and the remainder of your post follows in that line. The mocking of very difficult and emotional life decisions that you do not agree with because of your perverse beliefs shows the ugly superiority of a conservative, thuggish, spiritual terrorist.
""Believing in Hell must distort every judgment on this life.""~-- Cyril Connolly,
And from my experience, those with conservative personalities, corrupted by a perverse ideology, wallow in their evil with pride. And no amount of logic will penetrate that wall of self-righteous evil.
Hi skunky,
The question posed is not one which requires a theological frame of reference. In fact it is quite plain from my post that I am familiar with the arguments of the Judeo-Christian point of view. Whether THEIR point of view is delusional or whether your statements come from a 'blind man' is not important. The 'illogical' parts of my suggestion have not been pointed out by you. As far as 'deceptive' it seems to me that stating my own frame of reference is not only truthful but allows the others to put their arguments in a form that I might understand. 'The remainder of your post follows in that line.' would also confirm that I am neither deceptive, illogical nor delusional. In fact it seems to point to exactly the opposite. Someone whose logic is flawed could not 'follow in that line' nor would they be deceptive.
I do not mock the decision to commit suicide. I have considered it often in my own life. In fact the argument of doing a service to a 'greater ideal' or to look at suicide from a 'business decision' to advance another's financial stability could easily be rationalized from the Judeo-Christian perspective. The reason for posting my own belief foundations was to avoid having the Christians posting here to tell me that such an act would condemn the person to eternal hellfire. That was the sole purpose in inviting the secular persons to address the issue.
Your claim that 'your perverse beliefs shows the ugly superiority of a conservative, thuggish, spiritual terrorist.' is also in error. It does not pertain to me. I know well of whom you speak though and I find their lack of manners and offensive and arrogant style of condesending speech vain and childish. However, I am neither a conservative in politics nor in my general view of world affairs. I do not wish to be branded as an aryan nations white supremacist or any other such twisted 'God-fearin'' jackass. I am neither a thugg nor am I a 'spiritual terrorist'.
The issue you raised about Hell is also inaccurate when it comes to my Christianity. I neither fear Hell nor am I interested in the 'pie in the sky when you die' view of heaven. I have no solid ideas about such things and do not care much to investigate them. I will not be manipulated by either fear nor by some carrot on a stick held out in front of my nose. I have plenty of joy in my life right now and seek to grow in wisdom and understanding in many areas.
The only reason I put the idea of abortion into the mix was because the zygote, or blasticist or growth on the embrionic wall is not only non-productive but anticipates a drain on the immediate surroundings - as will I in a very few years. The parallel was made to suggest that it is legal whereas suicide is not. The value judgments about such things are similar to my view on heaven and hell - not my call - not my domain of expertise nor am I willing to speak on anyone else's behalf on these issues. This is a situation for them to sort out with their own conscience (and I believe ultimately their creator). Again it isn't my business nor do I want it to be.
Your concluding paragraph, "And from my experience, those with conservative personalities, corrupted by a perverse ideology, wallow in their evil with pride. And no amount of logic will penetrate that wall of self-righteous evil." emanates from a presupposition you have about me because of my original claim to be a Christian. It is nowhere you will find that I have been a 'conservative personality' nor has my reason been thwarted by some other dominion which has provided me with a corrupted and perverse ideology. I do not wallow in either evil nor pride. (It is curious that you use the term evil as if there were some other which is good). The fact that I am asking a serious question about the topic of suicide (specifically in the context of a business decision)seems to invite other ideas which may have escaped me - hardly pride.
Your speech, although vitriolic and rather well phrased, does nothing to provide me with ANY form of logic. You have used the opportunity on this post to insult me personally and suggest that I have put around myself 'that wall of self-righteous evil'. In this case again you are in error. I am not interested in provoking anything that will lead to a battle. I have no interest in 'saving you' or anyone else. I frankly don't give a hoot what you believe or think.
The question is do you think? If so then present some arguments. State your premises and show me how they lead to your conclusion. It is a rather simple task with no alternative motives on my part. Just curious about the ideas and if they have merit.
You have not presented any arguments relative to the topic.
Leaving out the comparison between the viability of the unborn - sorry I brought that up. What about suicide as a business decision. Is it a reasonable or acceptable idea and if not why not. It is an exercise in 'rational thinking'.
PS - that is an odd penname.
|
| 4/29/2009 7:50:59 AM |
Suicide - A Business Decision |
|
19maria50
Woodbury, NJ
age: 59
|
You have a lot to say but I say this
You stated
Would it not then be a totally 'reasonable' decision to end one's own life in order to secure the future financial security of someone else?
And my comment is if it is your OWN life you are taking about... there is only one person who can make this decision and that is the person who want to commit this act.
To place the words suicide and business in the same sentence to me = murder/to kill. Does fit or read well.
And maybe that is why ShunkBreath and I have a hard time understanding your rational why of thinking.
suicide is very emotional and business if very corporate/savvy
|
| 4/29/2009 8:06:07 AM |
Suicide - A Business Decision |
|
ourself
Hamilton, ON
age: 36
|
It isn't logical, resonable or moral in my opinion. You can't buy Life. Money could be a motivator in suicide for sure but is it worth it?
To put a price on Life is to devalue it. That's just stupid.
Have you seen "Falling Down" with Micheal Douglas? At the end he decides to die so his kid can get the insurance money. But he was a psycho who had just realised he was about to kill his ex wife along with his daughter and didn't want to go to jail. A feeble mind with a feeble plan.
I think the priorities in Life, the frame of mind and morals would need to be messed up for this to look like a viable alternative to trying. What kind of message does it send out? And what about the person recieving the money? If they find out how they got it, how would they feel? And if they are ok with where they got it, how could they possibly be deserving?
In my opinion, only a fool would do this and only a leech would cash in on someone elses Life in this manner.
[Edited 4/29/2009 8:21:32 AM PST]
|
| 4/29/2009 11:08:29 AM |
Suicide - A Business Decision |
|
19maria50
Woodbury, NJ
age: 59
|
It isn't logical, resonable or moral in my opinion. You can't buy Life. Money could be a motivator in suicide for sure but is it worth it?
To put a price on Life is to devalue it. That's just stupid.
Have you seen "Falling Down" with Micheal Douglas? At the end he decides to die so his kid can get the insurance money. But he was a psycho who had just realised he was about to kill his ex wife along with his daughter and didn't want to go to jail. A feeble mind with a feeble plan.
I think the priorities in Life, the frame of mind and morals would need to be messed up for this to look like a viable alternative to trying. What kind of message does it send out? And what about the person recieving the money? If they find out how they got it, how would they feel? And if they are ok with where they got it, how could they possibly be deserving?
In my opinion, only a fool would do this and only a leech would cash in on someone elses Life in this manner.
Very well said
I agree 100% 
|
| 4/29/2009 9:28:30 PM |
Suicide - A Business Decision |
|
d_voted
Winnipeg, MB
age: 56
|
I hadn't seen the movie and it seems to begin with someone who is pathologically deranged so the plot can move in any direction it wants to with that as an apriori premise.
Oh, by the way - an apriori premise - is the statement you begin with in any philosophical argument. It is one which is acceptable to the others as a starting point. The following statements of the arguments lead us to the conclusion.
In this case;
Apriori statement: I am getting old and will be a burden upon my family, my society and will not be able to contribute to the world as I once did.
Second Statement: Persons who are just beginning their lives often have the greatest needs at that time of their lives because they are either raising children or embarking on a career. The sacrifices these young people make drains their meager resources.
Third Statement: As an old person, and having achieved whatever I would have years ago and without any further dreams to achieve am willing to leave this earth.
Forth Statement: The insurance I took out years ago will pay for all the internment costs and disposal of the body with a substantial amount left over for those young people to lighten the burdens of raising a young family or starting out on a career.
Statement five: It is my body and no one has the right to determine, but me, what I do with it. My descision to pack it in on some previously specified date is reasonable.
"What kind of message does it send out? And what about the person recieving the money? If they find out how they got it, how would they feel? And if they are ok with where they got it, how could they possibly be deserving?"
The message it sends out is also factual. I am useless or at best minimally useful. The person receiving the money may or may not be informed ahead of time - that would be determined by the nature of the relationship. However, receiving the money is not an insurmountable problem. It is there - it has been designated to YOU - TAKE it.
I also doubt if anyone is deserving of any gift. IT is a gift not an I.O.U.
"What kind of message does it send out? And what about the person recieving the money? If they find out how they got it, how would they feel? And if they are ok with where they got it, how could they possibly be deserving?"
|
| 4/29/2009 9:36:11 PM |
Suicide - A Business Decision |
|
d_voted
Winnipeg, MB
age: 56
|
"To place the words suicide and business in the same sentence to me = murder/to kill. Does fit or read well."
I'm not sure that suicide is murder - that is the point. Do I have the right to kill myself and to do so for purely business reasons.
I am worth a lot of money dead. I am worth nothing alive. These are facts, the numbers do not lie. Knowing that I will not achieve any more tells me it would be wise to review my options.
It is a business decision and I fail to see how putting them in the same sentence does not fit or read well. (Unless you have some presuppostitions of your own that could be presented in argument form to counter the ideas I previously suggested.)
[Edited 4/29/2009 9:37:23 PM PST]
|
| 4/29/2009 9:59:21 PM |
Suicide - A Business Decision |
|
uhadme_
Bishop, CA
age: 46
|
"the most sincere form of self criticism is suicide" - Unknown
|
| 4/30/2009 7:58:25 AM |
Suicide - A Business Decision |
|
ourself
Hamilton, ON
age: 36
|
D_voted;
Apriori statement: I am getting old and will be a burden upon my family, my society and will not be able to contribute to the world as I once did.
Have you not paid into the family? Life has always been like this. We depend on others when We are small and We depend on others at the end of Life. In the middle We help.
And you don't know how this is all going to play out. We may one day have to start fresh. Society will change the World. That is how it has always been.
The message it sends out is also factual. I am useless or at best minimally useful. The person receiving the money may or may not be informed ahead of time - that would be determined by the nature of the relationship. However, receiving the money is not an insurmountable problem. It is there - it has been designated to YOU - TAKE it.
The message it sends to me is that the sun isn't worth watching anymore and the Love has beed drained out of Life. Sounds very Nihilistic except for the possible act of Kindness which leaves me to believe you still have Love to give.
Sounds like somebody who would have thought this through has more to offer than they thought.
You can always give the money away later.
[Edited 4/30/2009 7:59:38 AM PST]
|
| 4/30/2009 9:38:39 AM |
Suicide - A Business Decision |
|
d_voted
Winnipeg, MB
age: 56
|
What happened to skunky? Nothing to suggest? No logical or reasonable points to offer on the topic? The invitation was to the non-religious to post their arguments NOT to the religious - I already know their position. I am looking for anything out of my general frame of reference that I might have missed.
You attack anyone on any thread who smells something like religious to call them terrorists and thugs but have nothing else? Is it a habitual temper tantrum or is there some thoughtful response that can be offered?
Maria - the question was specifically about one's OWN life. The other arguments were presented as the legal definition of 'the person' and the 'rights of that person'.
Ourself: Your last post suggested 'Why not wait and pass it on later?'
The point is that there is nothing to pass on. The insurance is the only mechanism available to provide anything at all. A person who is wiped out financially and has little chance of earning the funds to support oneself in old age should review their options.
I am wondering if there is any reasonable refutation to the argument outside of the religious or theological one.
By the way, I am very, very happy so it is a theoretical question.
[Edited 4/30/2009 9:41:44 AM PST]
|
| 4/30/2009 9:49:34 AM |
Suicide - A Business Decision |
|
uhadme_
Bishop, CA
age: 46
|
would you like to know firsthand?
careful where thou wanderest.
to sum it up..
we will put an animal "out of it's misery"..
but under No set of miserable circumstances will ever let a humans suffering end...
other than naturally.
is that compasion? love?
maybe for animals but not humans.
how's that for perspective?
we can plainly see when it is too much suffering for a beast...
yet force our own kind to live in unfathomable pain
seems sadistic.
|