Do atheist have morals? 31

Page: 1, 2, 3, 4

10/3/2008 2:25:18 PM	Do atheist have morals?
saintgasoline Saint Louis, MO age: 26	Quote from sabellious: Morals are something that humanity has.It is the ability to rationalize between right and wrong. I have never met an atheist yet that can make rational differences between what is right and what is wrong. And have you ever heard a theist that provide rational differences between what is right and wrong? If one appeals to God, you are left with the dilemma of whether God commands something because it is good or whether whatever he commands is good. If God commands it because it is good, then what he says doesn't matter, as goodness transcends his commands. If it is good because he commands it, then anything could be good, including murder, rape, etc. In fact, God could murder and rape you for no reason and you'd have to consider that "good" because you are defining goodness in terms of whatever God does. In that sense, morality becomes relativisitic according to whatever God does, and thus doesn't appear very rational at all. I have already given you plenty of rational reasons to accept forms of ethics that are not based in divine commands. For instance, it is rational to accept fairness and justice because if we place ourselves behind a veil of ignorance concerning our station in society, it is rational to divide things fairly and equally in case we end up on the short end of the stick. It is rational to attain to a sort of deontology over consequentialist morality like utilitarianism because we recognize that intentions matter a great deal, which is why we make a pretty big distinction between manslaughter and murder, though the outcome is the same. Only humanity has been given, the gift of knowing the difference between right and wrong. This isn't true at all. Almost all social animals show degrees of what we'd call "moral" thinking, concepts of justice and reciprocation, etc. For instance, an ape that you groom who refuses to groom you back will learn about "justice" when every other ape in the troop thereafter refuses to groom him. Social apes in particularly show a characteristic moral feature of in-group/out-group distinctions, wherein those "inside" are treated well but "outsiders" are maligned. This perfectly mirrors morality we see in humans, ranging from the Old Testament (the chosen people can kill and rape outsiders at will, and often do) to feelings of nationalism (our country is the best and it is okay to invade others). As you see, none of this is unique to human beings. What is unique is our capacity for language and to conceptualize morality on that level, but that is not a moral distinction but an intellectual one. How about you tell us what makes theism a better explanation for morality. How do you know what is right and wrong? How do you overcome seemingly devastating objections, such as the argument that you would be incapable of knowing what a divine, unknowable being wants of you, such as questions of how to interpret so-called holy books and to choose among them, and how to deal with scenarios in which you readily recognize that the morality resulting from such sources doesn't cohere with your own conceptions (I highly doubt you find it immoral to eat shellfish or wear clothing of mixe material, for instance)? When you answer these questions sufficiently, only then may you criticize nontheists of having an untenable position on morality. As it stands, the objections to divine command morality are much more substantive than anything you've offered, which boils down to ignoring what is said and attempted insults.
10/3/2008 7:38:26 PM	Do atheist have morals?
agentox Hialeah, FL age: 31	@saintgasoline: "And have you ever heard a theist that provide rational differences between what is right and wrong?" Of course not, why would they? Morality are edicts, passed along from God to man. The author of morality has enlightened mankind to the law of morality. End of story. If we knew that God exists, no one could argue with this statement. So for one that believes that God exists, why would they argue, or need to explain anything? No reason at all. Does a math teacher need to prove 2 + 2 equals 4? No, argue it all you want, but mathematics (religion) will call you a fool. It is intrinsic to the science (religion). "If it is good because he commands it, then anything could be good, including murder, rape, etc. In fact, God could murder and rape you for no reason and you'd have to consider that "good" because you are defining goodness in terms of whatever God does. In that sense, morality becomes relativisitic according to whatever God does, and thus doesn't appear very rational at all." So, what makes God pass some edicts as positively moral, and some not? Great question, there is no way for the religious to know, other than God providing that certain knowledge. Yes, you are correct, if rape is an edict by God, then it becomes good or bad, depending on what He commands. However, your conclusion that it is relative is incorrect. God, being the author of morality, does not arbitrary declare what is moral or not. The entity of God, is in capable of moral transgressions. So, knowing that, you can't morally contradict yourself, and be moral. In other words, He is not passing edicts, that He does not follow Himself. Therefore, that lends to an objective moral law held by God, and given by God to man. Second, I would really like to hear what the purpose of morality, even ethics, is for mankind without the edicts of God. Didn't Sartre say that man would find morality, "good within itself." In other words, the morals passed such as rape, murder, are actually for the benefit of society. Didn't Hobbes say that life without morality, would be "nasty, brutish, and short?" So, to say that morality cannot be acheived without a divine being, is largely incorrect, and completely meaningless, as well. To say that morality, handed down by edicts, should be refused, is absurd. "This isn't true at all. Almost all social animals show degrees of what we'd call "moral" thinking, concepts of justice and reciprocation, etc." Reciprocation isn't a moral or an ethic. Justice? Refusing to groom, and then being set outside, why isn't that behaviorism? Why is it that I can tell pregnant women, "Are you overweight?", get a frown that tells me socially, this is not an acceptable thing to say (not to mention idiotic), and I learn that this is not an acceptable response to pregnant women? I have not committed any moral or ethical transgressions, just as not grooming someone is not a moral transgression. So, because a learned response, is developed into a conventional societal understanding, then how is that indicative of morality? It is not, not at all. So, why take behaviorism into that realm, and call it morality or ethics? "How do you know what is right and wrong? How do you overcome seemingly devastating objections, such as the argument that you would be incapable of knowing what a divine, unknowable being wants of you" Because their religion gives them edicts as a foundation and principled view for what is wrong and right. Further, what do atheist know about the unknowable subject of morality? Why have I seen on these boards, no less, the same when hot topics like stem cell research come abound, and the opinions certainly are not demarcated by religious and non-religious perspectives, exclusively. That is for sure. "(I highly doubt you find it immoral to eat shellfish or wear clothing of mixe material, for instance)?" I think you are speaking of Exodus. These were temporal covenants between God and man. These are hardly timeless edicts of Jewish or Christian beliefs. However, even some of them disagree. However, I personally do not think that it holds water. "As it stands, the objections to divine command morality are much more substantive than anything you've offered, which boils down to ignoring what is said and attempted insults." I will just say, Theist claim that Atheist have an arbitrary morality, and atheist counter that their moral system is more or less practical or more pointedly, more astute, and not mindless. Atheist, generally claim that Theists have a dogmatic approach, but Theist have a principled foundation by the author of morality, which if God exists, is indisputable. Since we don't know if God exists, nonetheless one position is superior, that is what I do know. [Edited 10/3/2008 8:01:49 PM]
10/3/2008 9:00:01 PM	Do atheist have morals?
forever4 Victoria Australia age: 47	Quote from sabellious: Again i do appreciate all of the post, everyone of the atheist are trying real hard to convince us that they have morals. I have to give them grade level of ''C'' for effort. Yet asking an atheist if they have morals, is like asking a dog if they like Alpo. One can train a dog or any other kind of domestic animal to do tricks like to bark when asked a question, yet are they moral decisions that the animal makes. No the animal reacts to instincts,knowing that it will get an award, so just like the atheist species they react by pure instinct. Most atheist do not think in rational terms and they are unmoral.I do have hope for the atheist ,maybe one day they can be domesticated. Right now the only thing that we can do for an atheist is be kind to them like all other animals.Lets try to make sure that they are caught up on their shots. Report anyone, who may abuse a poor helpless atheist, to the humane society. Ok At lets try this again. Atheist convince us that yall animals know right from wrong. Atheist dont waste their time on beliving in something that they have no proof of ever seeing If god ever visits me and I see him Ill certainley change my opinion but until I actualley see a so called god I remain an atheist
10/3/2008 10:25:51 PM	Do atheist have morals?
r_7 Sanford, FL age: 45	Atheists are simply blind! God's creation displays clearly and evidently His Magnificent Existence and awesome creative power! Nothing like Earth in the whole known Universe! Explain that!. lol.
10/3/2008 10:49:13 PM	Do atheist have morals?
stringsvrs Syracuse, NY age: 51	So far from the atheist that I know, and the ones that post here only show me through their ignorance that they have no morals, values or ethics. I am open for any atheist to prove me wrong.Yet I havent yet found one to prove me wrong. What atheist on this forum has any morals? r_7 Sanford, FL age: 45 online now! Atheists are simply blind! God's creation displays clearly and evidently His Magnificent Existence and awesome creative power! Nothing like Earth in the whole known Universe! Explain that!. lol. I am neither Christian, Agnostic nor Atheist and yet, I do not see where this post has anything to do at all with the thread It just displays ignorance and judgmental mentality. Are you either of you brothers describing Christian behaviors? Since you are both behaving as those of whom you are accusing. Thoughtless, inconsiderate, disrespectful, non-compassionate...etc.... Peace and Love
10/3/2008 10:55:07 PM	Do atheist have morals?
r_7 Sanford, FL age: 45	Does your mind work at all, OR NOT?
10/3/2008 11:47:52 PM	Do atheist have morals?
rockondon Prince George, BC age: 35 online now!	I have never met an atheist yet that can make rational differences between what is right and what is wrong. Oh look - its stupid statement day! I've never met a christian that doesn't molest animals. Perhaps its because my name is sabellious and I make idiotic false generalizations because my beliefs are crap and so am I.
10/3/2008 11:54:43 PM	Do atheist have morals?
r_7 Sanford, FL age: 45	Atheists do not even know what morality is. Let alone know how to cook and eat it!!! lol.
10/4/2008 1:37:40 AM	Do atheist have morals?
stormbay Tasmania Australia age: 63	Atheists are simply blind! God's creation displays clearly and evidently His Magnificent Existence and awesome creative power! Nothing like Earth in the whole known Universe! Explain that!. My oh my, it seems we have another recorded answering machine hanging around. No answers, just stupid statements of ignorance. Your supposed god's creation shows god is a fake, which proves how unethical and deceptive god followers are. Typically you can't support you hypothesis with viewable and verifiable facts, just blustering babble. Maybe you should open your eyes to the unfolding reality of the universe, then you will see earth like planets are a common occurrence. I agree atheists don't have morals, they have ethics. Something far superior, caring and loving than suppressive ignorant morals. Those who are arguing non believers have morals, should learn the difference between morals and ethics. Ethics are seen in the animal and realist societies, whilst morals are seen within religious societies, which lack ethics. Now if you look at the how realist societies compared to religious societies conduct themselves, you'll quickly see morals bring about sorrow, suppression and debauched practises. Ethics on the other hand, bring about acceptance, equality and happiness. Morals are used to divide, suppress and inflict pain and suffering.
10/4/2008 1:55:02 AM	Do atheist have morals?
saintgasoline Saint Louis, MO age: 26	Quote from agentox: The author of morality has enlightened mankind to the law of morality. End of story. If we knew that God exists, no one could argue with this statement. Exactly. And my ultimate point is that we have no real reason to believe in God in the first place. But beyond that, the dilemmas I raised about the knowability of a morality stemming from God and the conceptual problem of what it means for morality to depend on God seem to be insurmountable. I'll address that using your defenses against these claims below. In regards to how we would know which morality or which holy book is the "real" morality, you seem to only offer this as an argument: there is no way for the religious to know, other than God providing that certain knowledge. However, this obviously isn't the case, because all of the moralities claimed to come from God differ and contradict each other from holy book to holy book, and even in terms of how a single holy book is interpreted. How can you say certain knowledge is given, when so many religious people will rail against homosexuality, whereas others will say homosexuality is acceptable given the same textual basis? You have not adequately answered this objection. To say that morality comes from God, you have to demonstrate how you know the specific morality you embrace actually comes from God. Because if it is true, as I say, that a morality that stems from a transcendant being would be unknowable, then basically such a morality would be pointless and end up reflecting people's personal wishes and interpretations in the end, which is precisely what we see, as this accounts very well for the diversity in religious morality we see. This is why people fly jets into buildings and find this the moral thing in God's eyes, whereas others feel just the opposite. Yes, you are correct, if rape is an edict by God, then it becomes good or bad, depending on what He commands. However, your conclusion that it is relative is incorrect. God, being the author of morality, does not arbitrary declare what is moral or not. The entity of God, is in capable of moral transgressions. So, knowing that, you can't morally contradict yourself, and be moral. In other words, He is not passing edicts, that He does not follow Himself. Your argument doesn't hold up, though, because on the one hand you are asserting that whatever God does is good by definition, but then you are trying to support this by saying God couldn't arbitrarily command rape and then command not raping as virtuous because this contradiction would be immoral. Notice that you would have to maintain that this contradiction is immoral not through any act of God (because you are applying this judgment explicitly to God's actions), but through some objective moral standard whose source is other than God. Otherwise you have no basis for saying that this contradiction is wrong, because whatever God does, even if it is a contradiction, would be right if we define morality in terms of God's actions and commands. Your only way to maintain that the morality that comes from God isn't arbitrary, in effect, is to argue that morality doesn't actually come from God, and that we can even assess God's actions and commands as good or bad, which clearly contradicts any thesis that God creates morality.
10/4/2008 1:55:40 AM	Do atheist have morals?
saintgasoline Saint Louis, MO age: 26	@agent ox (continued) Second, I would really like to hear what the purpose of morality, even ethics, is for mankind without the edicts of God. The purpose of morality is to preserve fairness, justice, and prevent harm, things humans universally recognize as legitimate ends. The best way to see how we could arrive at such conclusions and knowledge without appealing to God is to utilize various "universalizing" mechanisms, of which John Rawl's veil of ignorance is one example. If we all imagine ourselves placed behind a veil of ignorance and are then told to organize society, divide rewards and punishments, etc., we'd do so fairly and equally, because if we didn't, there's a chance we could come out of that veil of ignorance to find ourselves as the oppressed necessary to maintain an unfair, unjust society. Another example of a universalizing mechanism based on reasoning rather than an appeal to God is something like Kant's categorical imperative. These are not without their flaws, naturally, but they are significantly more substantive than anything offered by divine command morality, and they have the added advantage of at least being capable of appeals to evidence and reasoning. If you mean what the ultimate purpose is, there is none. But this is just as applicable to religious morality. We can ask the same thing of God. There is no being higher than God, so what is the purpose of morality to God? If we assert that he has his own purposes, then why cold we not say people make their own purposes, especially when it is quite evident that we do make our own purposes frequently in life? Reciprocation isn't a moral or an ethic. Justice? Refusing to groom, and then being set outside, why isn't that behaviorism? This is a perfect example of a moral framework for justice found in social apes. Apes recognize that it is not "fair" for one ape to be groomed when that ape refuses to groom others, and they recognize that this is not "right" and therefore refuse to groom him back thereafter, in which case that ape gets covered in fleas and receives the "justice" he deserves. This is not behaviorism. That would imply that these apes don't have a conception of proto-morality or anything at all going on in their heads, and I am asserting just the opposite. The basic point is that we can obviously see moral reasoning in various social animals, we simply don't see it conceptualized and expressed in language. I have not committed any moral or ethical transgressions, just as not grooming someone is not a moral transgression. Let's say you give someone five dollars for a service. That person then doesn't provide that service to you, effectively stealing your money. Would you say this person has not committed a moral transgression? If you do say this is a moral transgression, then you'd have to admit that my social grooming example is a moral transgression, as well, because what is happening is an ape is providing a service (grooming) expecting compensation and reciprocation, and in the end not receiving it, which is exactly analagous to the example I've given. If you'd assert that this example of theft is NOT a moral transgression, then you'd have to explain why so many religions, including the ten commandments, explicitly assert that theft of this sort is immoral. At any rate, I think now would be a good time for you to define what you even mean by moral transgression, because it isn't clear what you could mean if these examples won't count as "moral". Further, what do atheist know about the unknowable subject of morality? First of all, atheists are not obligated to assert that morality is unknowable, because we do not claim morality stems from a transcendant being that we cannot interact with or observe in any way. Many atheists would assert that morality IS knowable, in that it can be explained through evolutionary processes, or universalizing mechanisms like I mentioned above, and so on. As for how we explain the diversity of moral opinion, I don't claim to speak for all atheists, but my own view is that this is explained by the fact that morality is not objective or absolute. This isn't quite the same thing as out-and-out relativism, though, as it is clear that we can adduce empirical reasons and arguments concerning moral actions. For instance, if one says, "Using drugs is immoral because it makes people go crazy," and I subsequently show that the factual support is incorrect, that drugs do not make people go crazy, then I would have shown that the position that drug use is immoral is untenable. At heart, though, I'm a sort of emotivist, which means I think morals are basically expressions of desires and emotions, and so that means they aren't logically absolute or objective. But physically speaking, all humans basically have the same sorts of universal emotions, feelings, and desires, so it IS possible in principle to universalize moral questions to all humans with the methods I've mentioned earlier. Basically, my stance is that morality is not ultimately justified logically, but defeasibly with appeals to reasons and in the end with subjective states and emotions that are thankfully quite universal. By the way, I thank you for writing a clear, intelligible position that actually adduces arguments for your stance. Even though I disagree with you, I can respect you because you've at least shown the capacity to grapple with and discuss the issues I've raised. [Edited 10/4/2008 2:03:13 AM]
10/4/2008 1:57:32 AM	Do atheist have morals?
drpepperz Lafayette, LA age: 31	Let's not call atheists blind. Christians don't believe in unicorns or leprachauns and I can't for the life of me figure out why. If someone tells you the grass is red,you will say no the grass is green, but at the same time, God and his message is spread by word of mouth. Absolutely no factual evidence. To the topic, yes atheists have morals and if you can't see that then define morals. Morals does not mean believing in a supernatural being.
10/4/2008 4:07:58 AM	Do atheist have morals?
r_7 Sanford, FL age: 45	Ok, i will not "call" them blind, because. They are blind! Only a blind person will try to imagine an elephant by touching his ears. lol To the blind light and shadows do not exist, images are concepts, visual reality-sensorial-is not possible at least temporarily. Spiritual Blindness is a Biblical term often used. I did not invent it! lol
10/4/2008 8:06:04 AM	Do atheist have morals?
sabellious Wrens, GA age: 43	Wow it is amazing at all the feed back that I am getting from this question. Thanks you atheist.I really appreciate the response.Yet the ultimate question has not beeen fully answered. Do atheist have morals?I say no they do not. Stormboy has admitted that atheist dont have morals.Atleast he has been honest on this one point.Yet then he lied and went on to say that atheist have ethics. One must see that morals , values and ethics go hand and hand.One depends upon the other. All of these traits are of humanity.Yet even sometimes some subspecies can show love and other emotions, but that does not mean that these emotions are governed by these three laws of morals, values and ethics.Only has humanity been given this gift. All form of the great apes have not recieved this gift.Chimp. atheist, gorilla,etc. That is why most great apes are hard to dometicate straight from the wild. Yet there is hope fro the atheist one day they may make great pets.
10/4/2008 8:15:20 AM	Do atheist have morals?
ourself Hamilton, ON age: 36	It`s amusing how the trolls on this forum are allowed to start threads. Do you not get enough attention in real life? Is any attention good attention? I mean, if you want to get a rise out of intelligent people all you need to do is post stupid comments. And we get to use you for practise in the event of an actual, insightful debate. It's a win-win situation.

Page: 1, 2, 3, 4

www usasexguide

hookup sites london