Evolution: the fairy tale 31

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10/3/2008 2:00:33 PM	Evolution: the fairy tale
saintgasoline Saint Louis, MO age: 26	Quote from skipaway: the odds that life as we know it in all it's forms and complexity, happened over extensive time and chance,it's silly and it's not proven, it just a theory that doesn't work, I find it funny that you'd assert this and then quote Behe. You do know that Behe admits that man evolved from apes and various other aspects of what you creationists would call "macroevolution", right? The reason is fairly obvious. Even if a claim intuitively seems improbable or unlikely, if we have other evidence that points to the claim occurring, our initial judgments of its probability go out the window. Behe is at least honest enough to recognize that the evidence in favor of evolution is overwhelming enough to override this initial credulity in many cases. His mistake is to simplify what the process of evolution entails and to overlook glaring dificulties with his own position. Here is a breakdown of some of these errors, based on what he said: “If two mutations have to occur before there is a net beneficial effect — if an intermediate state is harmful, or less fit than the starting state — then there is already a big evolutionary problem.” (4) And what if more than two are needed? The task quickly gets out of reach of random mutation. Notice that this argument equally applies to man's descent from apes. It would require potentially more than one mutation to create such changes. And yet Behe accepts our descent. Why? Because, as I said, the evidence is overwhelming. You can see it in the similarity of our DNA, in the changes in our DNA that directly show the evolutionary relationship progressing, in homologous body structures, in all kinds of transitional forms that have been found, and in the overriding evidence of evolution in every other creature ever examined. To say, "But this is unlikely" when we have evidence that points to this conclusion is no criticism, just as it would be no criticism for one to go up to a lottery winner and say, "You didn't really win the lottery; it's too unlikely." His recent purchase of sports cars and other facts and evidence of wealth would outweight your appeal to probability. Not only that, but his explanation is simply wrong. Staggering changes can result from simple mutational changes. Something as simple as turning on or off a certain regulatory part of the DNA can result in wild differences. Not only that, but he ignores all kinds of subtleties. Yes, an intermediate state that is more harmful may be a "big evolutionary problem". Maybe. But in a change of environment that harm can become more good. For instance, sickle cell anemia is generally regarded as harmful, but the whole reason it has spread throughout malaria-infested reasons is because it confers a slight survival advantage in those conditions. One explanation for the presence of diabetes is that it made it easier to survive in the cold during recent ice ages, and the trade off between living a shorter life and freezing to death was one that selected for what we now see as "harmful" in present conditions. Behe also doesn't seem to account for the fact that mutations are more often than not totally benign and have no effect whatsoever. So in that sense, if one mutation is benign, the second is benign, but the third combined with these two produces a change for the better, there is no selection pressure against this. But the overriding point is that the actual evidence belies his appeals to probability. We have more than enough reason to accept the common descent of all creatures and the fact that huge beneficial features have evolved repeatedly. Given these facts, there is simply no reason to deny them in the specific instances Behe cherry-picks. Why can't Behe cherry-pick? Because his own explanation is impotent. His whole set of evidence for design is not evidence for design at all, but attempted criticisms of evolution, instead. He criticizes evolution for lacking a specific explanation for how complex structures have evolved, and yet his own hypothesis gives no specific explanation at all, either, combined with the fact that there is no evidence to support "intelligent design" in any structure whatsoever, when we already have that precedent with evolution based on reams of evidence. Behe is simply putting on his cognitive dissonance blinders and desperately searching for whatever evolution hasn't currently explained or that lacks overwhelming evolutionary evidence so that he can proclaim it designed, and when evolution does explain it he will just move on to the next unexplained phenomenon, unaware that he has done no explaining with his own conjecture. [Edited 10/3/2008 2:05:07 PM]
10/3/2008 2:03:02 PM	Evolution: the fairy tale
jewelz5 Monteagle, TN age: 54 online now!	lovesgod, that pic comes from steve quayles website also and his work where he has extensive stuff about giants, there is a thread here from months ago where I posted that same pic but you didn't know.
10/3/2008 2:19:25 PM	Evolution: the fairy tale
skunkbreath Saint James, MO age: 89	-gas-, an excellent, clear, concise, and informative post!..
10/3/2008 2:47:32 PM	Evolution: the fairy tale
skipaway Bartlett, IL age: 43	ok? thanks for the long posting reply and for the theorizing and speculating, but there's not any evidence of evolution, and it doesn't work as a theory, for example? You can see it in the similarity of our DNA, in the changes in our DNA that directly show the evolutionary relationship progressing, in homologous body structures, in all kinds of transitional forms that have been found, and in the overriding evidence of evolution in every other creature ever examined. it's nice the you can come up with that sentence, but there's nothing there.
10/3/2008 5:39:42 PM	Evolution: the fairy tale
ourself Hamilton, ON age: 36	Lol! Perhaps if you keep your head in the sand the world will just go away.
10/3/2008 5:49:05 PM	Evolution: the fairy tale
r_7 Sanford, FL age: 45	Quote from r_7: Evolution is a Reality! the Problem is It works in REVERSE! Some men and women do become monkeys! Specially true of ATHEISTS. lol. Beginning with R. Denkins?-i forget the spelling of this pseudo scientific scholar- Thick empty-full of rederick-unreadable books. lol. As you can see by the Postings EVOLUTION IN REVERSE DOES WORK! SOME MEN-and women-DO BECOME APE LIKE! lol As for the alien beings-they are bugs and freaks already-they do not nee to evolve at all lol!
10/3/2008 6:07:57 PM	Evolution: the fairy tale
skipaway Bartlett, IL age: 43	There’s nothing to show That evolution has ever happen? Anywhere, it’s no big deal, But it’s not there? It’s a theory that doesn’t work. but whatever, have fun, lol
10/3/2008 6:18:30 PM	Evolution: the fairy tale
jewelz5 Monteagle, TN age: 54 online now!	r-7: As for the alien beings-they are bugs and freaks already-they do not nee to evolve at all lol! The joke is on you r-7, read my lips, there very definately is an alien agenda to our lives. You are just terribly naive about it, because you believe in Jesus Christ Superstar and they don't have time for such foolish nonsense. Your master slave handlers love your blind obedients to be a good God fearing slave and they love it when you don't talk back to them when they ask you to bend over and grab your ankles and take it like a man.
10/3/2008 6:22:55 PM	Evolution: the fairy tale
reenie4 Milwaukee, WI age: 51	I... can see through walls "STOP THAT"
10/3/2008 6:41:36 PM	Evolution: the fairy tale
r_7 Sanford, FL age: 45	Quote from jewelz5: r-7: As for the alien beings-they are bugs and freaks already-they do not nee to evolve at all lol! The joke is on you r-7, read my lips, there very definately is an alien agenda to our lives. You are just terribly naive about it, because you believe in Jesus Christ Superstar and they don't have time for such foolish nonsense. Your master slave handlers love your blind obedients to be a good God fearing slave and they love it when you don't talk back to them when they ask you to bend over and grab your ankles and take it like a man. You are SICK jewelz5! Are you a homosexual freak? ( or was it prison that twisted you?)
10/3/2008 7:02:04 PM	Evolution: the fairy tale
valion Chicopee, MA age: 56	rock, you spew nonsensical bile. What nonsense. For EVERY other species intelligence was not necessary to survive. You're inferring that all non-humans have no intelligence? There are huge differences in intellect in the animal kingdom. Do animals live in the forest? If so, human-level intelligence is not necessary for them to survive. I am inferring no such thing. Obviously a chimp or even a fish has some level of intelligence. Huge differences? The huge difference you note between any two animals you want to name is insignificant compared to man's vastly superior intellect compared to any of them. Rating one to 10; A fish is a 1. A chimp is a 10. A human is 10,000! And MY POINT WAS human-level intelligence was not necessary for humans to merely survive. Man could have been just as simple as an ape and survived. Could he not have wandered in great herds and let predators pick off the lame and old as many species do? Hitler would certainly agree with that rationale. You are unreal. I provide an example of a type of existence a number of species use to survive and postulate man could have used that survival tactic instead of evolving extreme intelligence, and you liken it to being like Hitler? Pathetic. Do us all a favor and slap yourself silly. You deserve it for such a cheap shot. There was OBVIOUSLY something going on in the DNA that FAR surpassed mere survival. Wake up. Your point is absurd. There is, its called mutations, a key component of evolution. Absurd is believing a book about a magic dude casting spells to create the universe. Absurd is you pretending to be christian and doing everything possible to NOT understand His creation. Absurd is someone who posts hate and intolerance while preaching love. Mutations? That's a laugh. Mutations are basically birth defects. There are virtually zero documented examples of them ever being "good". You belch the same old, tired, liberal mantra about intolerance and hate when somebody simply disagrees. You should be ashamed, but since you have no standards, you aren't. Show me the hate. Show me the intolerance. You can't. You can only blather baseless accusations in an attempt to mask your lack of substance. Problem is you are completely FOS, have always been FOS and always will be FOS. Just because a couple of your clueless kindred unbelievers here pat you on the back when you regurgitate your clueless babble, it doesn't make it real. You're just a weenie.
10/3/2008 7:06:28 PM	Evolution: the fairy tale
ourself Hamilton, ON age: 36	Valion; Show me the hate. Show me the intolerance. You can't. You can only blather baseless accusations in an attempt to mask your lack of substance. Seriously man... Do you not see the irony here? Rock has shown no signs of hatred... Only you have. Do you think us getting our opposing thumbs was an ok "defect"? [Edited 10/3/2008 7:14:18 PM]
10/3/2008 7:19:20 PM	Evolution: the fairy tale
tohyup York, ON age: 46	Quote from valion: If man and gorillas had a common ancestor, why is man flying space shuttles and gorilla still eating each other's fleas? Because not every theory is a reality......
10/4/2008 2:29:26 AM	Evolution: the fairy tale
saintgasoline Saint Louis, MO age: 26	Quote from valion: And MY POINT WAS human-level intelligence was not necessary for humans to merely survive. Man could have been just as simple as an ape and survived. That's arguable. After moving out of the trees and onto the savannah, and being weak and small, it is unlikely we could have stayed as simple as an ape and survived. There's a reason you don't find too many defenseless, weak, ape-like creatures on savannahs filled with speedy predators. Also, even it were true that it wasn't necessary to evolve our level of intelligence for survival, that doesn't contradict evolution at all. Evolution doesn't predict that whatever evolves will only meet a bare minimum requirement for survival. Whatever the mutations or genetic recombinations produce, whether the gains are large or small, so long as they aid survival they will be spread throughout a population. We could have all remained single-celled bacteria and still survived, too. The point, of course, is that beneficial changes drive evolution, and there is no reason to think these changes have any upper limit. Mutations are basically birth defects. This isn't true at all. I've pointed out time and time again that Richard Lesnki's research on E. coli have detailed a specific mutation that produced a positive, fitness-increasing result, namely, that the bacteria could then digest citrate. This is just one example among many. It is correct that most mutations will either be harmful or have no effect whatsoever, but it doesn't follow that ALL mutations are harmful. Also, I a subtle argument can be made that your conception of "good" is relative. To use a silly example to illustrate a point, suppose a man evolves gills which harm him because they make his lungs only capable of breathing with 50% the efficiency a normal human would. That's a bad mutation, right? Wrong. Let's further say global warming causes everything to flood. Suddenly this "bad" mutation is "good". It is important to keep in mind the context of an organism's surroundings and that we can't judge mutations as objectively good or bad. [Edited 10/4/2008 2:31:56 AM]
10/4/2008 3:00:34 AM	Evolution: the fairy tale
valion Chicopee, MA age: 56	Quote from ourself: Valion; Show me the hate. Show me the intolerance. You can't. You can only blather baseless accusations in an attempt to mask your lack of substance. Seriously man... Do you not see the irony here? Rock has shown no signs of hatred... Only you have. Do you think us getting our opposing thumbs was an ok "defect"? You are amazing. He likens me to Hitler merely because I mention man could have "evolved" with the traits of a herding species as an alternative, but that's not hateful, and I simply say he blathers baseless accusations without substance; and you see that as hate. You should really be ashamed of posting such malevolent garbage as this. But you're not; because you suck. You are as clueless and nasty as he is. Possum have opposable thumbs. How's that working out for them? And by what deep knowledge of the universe do you submit this condition as a "mutation"? You people just make no sense, yet posture yourselves as bright.

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