The ‘Same God’ Question (Part 1)

1/30/2016 8:15:41 AM	The ‘Same God’ Question (Part 1)
Yasureoktoo Seattle, WA 61, joined Dec. 2014	The ‘Same God’ Question (Part 1) January 29, 2016 12:07 pm By Ralph Sidway 106 Comments Why the wrong answer is killing the West, including America Introduction: An Epistemological Malady In his 2010 book, Revelation: Do We Worship the Same God? [1], Mark Durie addresses what is at stake when it comes to the “Same God Question”: The traditional Islamic view is that if you want to know what the God of the Bible is like, then read the Koran. Not only must Muslims believe that ‘we worship the same God’, but this message is always a central component of the presentation of Islam to Christians and Jews. [This ‘Same God’ message] provides the lynchpin of Muslims’ efforts to convert the ‘People of the Book’ to the faith of Muhammad. In addition, this belief, once accepted, can lead Christians to support Islamic perspectives in ways other than conversion. For example, embracing this Islamic doctrine wins a measure of respect and even support for Islam from Christians. (Mark Durie, Revelation: Do We Worship the Same God?, pp 75-76; emphasis added.) Durie’s clarity on the importance of answering properly the “Same God Question” makes our study of this question essential. In fact, I would argue that the “Same God Question” is equally important for atheists and agnostics to ponder. Some are understanding this, in spite of their predisposition against Christianity. For example, the high-profile atheist Richard Dawkins recently expressed his concern over the decline of Christianity, stating “Christianity might be a bulwark against something worse.” His analysis will almost certainly cost him some allies on the Left. Consider these observations: “There are no Christians, as far as I know, blowing up buildings,” Dawkins said. “I am not aware of any Christian suicide bombers. I am not aware of any major Christian denomination that believes the penalty for apostasy is death.” In a rare moment of candor, Dawkins reluctantly accepted that the teachings of Jesus Christ do not lead to a world of terror, whereas followers of radical Islam perpetrate the very atrocities that he laments. Because of this realization, Dawkins wondered aloud whether Christianity might indeed offer an antidote to protect western civilization against jihad. The flip side to Dawkins’ point is that Western Civilization might indeed be warranted in protecting Christian culture against Islam and jihad. This is such an obvious set of considerations and conclusions — all of which stem from a correct answer to the Same God Question — that it is astonishing to be confronted with the writings of those who have never considered this issue, or who have answered The Question incorrectly. Perhaps nowhere do we find a better expression of the general lack of awareness — and even admission of lack of interest — concerning this pivotal question than in Rod Dreher’s December 17, 2015 post, “Muslim God, Christian God”. I am thankful for his honesty in this article, even if I am deeply disturbed by it. Dreher’s grappling with The Question was prompted by Wheaton College’s suspension of a professor over this very issue. Dreher cites Wheaton’s statement (emphasis added): On December 15, 2015, Wheaton College placed Associate Professor of Political Science Dr. Larycia Hawkins on paid administrative leave in order to give more time to explore theological implications of her recent public statements concerning Christianity and Islam… [Her] recently expressed views, including that Muslims and Christians worship the same God, appear to be in conflict with the College’s Statement of Faith. And so, we launch into the theological deep-end, with the “Same God Question” finally being brought out into the public square. You can read the whole thing, which for all its obvious sincerity is hopelessly muddled, but I think that’s part of Dreher’s point. I commend Dreher for his public honesty, especially this section (emphasis added): To be honest, I’ve never thought at all about whether Muslims pray to the same God as Christians. The Catholic Church teaches that they do, and that was my belief when I was a Catholic, though I never gave it a minute’s thought. I don’t know what I believe now, to be honest. We know that Muslims do not pray to the Holy Trinity — but this is also true of Jews. Don’t Christians (most Christians) believe that Jews pray to the one true God, even if they have an imperfect understanding of His nature? If this is true for Jews, why not also for Muslims, who clearly adhere to an Abrahamic religion? This is why my tendency is to assume that Muslims do pray to the one true God, even though they have a radically impaired view of Him. Meet singles at DateHookup.dating, we're 100% free! Join now!
1/30/2016 8:16:09 AM	The ‘Same God’ Question (Part 1)
Yasureoktoo Seattle, WA 61, joined Dec. 2014	But how far do we go with that? How far indeed! The early Christian Church fathers would (and did) have plenty to say about this, including a vigorous denial — based on the Hebrew and New Testament Scriptures — of the statement that Islam is an “Abrahamic religion.” More from Dreher: I’m not sure what I think. I mean, I assume, in charity, that people who intend their prayers to be to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are praying to the true God, whatever they lack in theological understanding. But again, I’ve not given this much thought. How about you?… Again, I appreciate Rod Dreher’s honesty, and I think a great many people are in the same boat as he. They don’t know what they think, and have never given it much thought. Dreher confesses one or the other epistemological malady five times. Five times. In three paragraphs. In our age of genocide against Christians by Muslims in Africa and the Middle East, the global war on Christians by Islam, the collapse of Christianity in Europe, and the global rise of Islam and stealth jihad everywhere, for sincere Christians to not have ever thought about the “Same God” issue, and to not be sure what they think about it, is deeply, deeply troubling. Yet as we see from the constant stream of statements from Christian bishops, leaders and writers urging “greater solidarity with Islam“, embracing Muhammad as “a prophet” who “brought love, peace, and much more” to the world, and similar affirmations, the avoidance of The Question is an epistemological malady not merely of the average Christian in the pew, but of church educated, elite and shepherds as well. Political leaders look to such positions as grounding their policies towards Muslims and the religion of Islam in general. And the public policies justified by such Islam-embracing pronouncements provide an open door for Islam to advance its influence and control throughout the West. Indeed, this has been going on for decades now. This must be addressed, and reversed, if Western leaders are to stand a chance of articulating a coherent policy to protect and preserve our civilization, and see it through the new century. Dreher asks on his blog, “How about you?” Therefore, I decided to put some effort into this, especially as my own 2010 book deals with the “Same God” question at some length. The answer to this question has, I believe, not only temporal but eternal implications, which is why I opened Chapter 1 of my book, Facing Islam — On Religious Dialogue — with this quote: “ “Can any one of us be silent if he sees that many of his brethren simultaneously are walking along a path that leads them and their flock to a disastrous precipice through their unwitting loss of Orthodoxy?” — Metropolitan Philaret of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad, 1969 Of course, in the context of this article I am speaking of Christian “orthodoxy” with a lower-case “o”. So, from a theological position, I will be appealing to traditional Christian foundations common to Orthodox, Roman Catholics, Protestants, Coptic Orthodox (and shared by Oriental Christians), and Islam’s position vis a vis Christianity. Next up, Part 2: Allah’s Theological Jihad against Christianity
1/30/2016 1:34:31 PM	The ‘Same God’ Question (Part 1)
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 63, joined Feb. 2008	Muslims and Christians believe in the same God but believing in God is not enough for salvation. God must be loved, and loved above all else. Is the Muslim concept of God (the Muslim and Christian concepts of God are certainly different) lovable?
1/30/2016 2:26:36 PM	The ‘Same God’ Question (Part 1)
followjesusonly Kingman, AZ 87, joined May. 2012 online now!	Quote from ludlowlowell: Muslims and Christians believe in the same God but believing in God is not enough for salvation. God must be loved, and loved above all else. Is the Muslim concept of God (the Muslim and Christian concepts of God are certainly different) lovable? But you don't love God, you know that and God knows that, according to Jesus. Jesus says if you don't keep His sayings, you don't love Him. And you don't. "If a man love me, he will keep my words."(John 14:23) "He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings." (John 14:24) And according to your very own words, God will send you to Hell: "God ...sends people to Hell who don't love Him back." -Ludlow The answer to the OPs premise is that there is only one God. And Jesus says this is enough (and required) for salvation: ...Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? (Luke 10:25) "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself." (Luke 10:27) And [Jesus] said unto him, this do, and thou shalt live. (Luke 10:25-28)
2/1/2016 4:31:03 AM	The ‘Same God’ Question (Part 1)
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 63, joined Feb. 2008	Somewhere somehow FJO obtained a license to sit in judgment of other people.
2/1/2016 11:07:25 AM	The ‘Same God’ Question (Part 1)
followjesusonly Kingman, AZ 87, joined May. 2012 online now!	Quote from ludlowlowell: Somewhere somehow FJO obtained a license to sit in judgment of other people. That's a false accusation. Where have I done that? I have not judged you. You're the one who said, "God ...sends people to Hell who don't love Him..." Do you deny it? That's YOU judging other people and dictating what God will do with them if they don't love God, according to you. And Jesus is the one who said that you don't love God because you don't obey Him: "If a man love me, he will keep my words."(John 14:23) "He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings." (John 14:24) You can't deny that you don't keep Jesus' sayings. In fact you defy Him and do exactly what He said not to do. You can't deny it. So where have I sat in judgment of you? And if you can't deny these issues above here and now, how are you going to deny them in front of God? Even if I had, which I have not, you don't have to fear my judgment. You only have to fear your own judgment ("God ...sends people to Hell who don't love Him...") and Jesus' judgment for disobeying Him and defying Him. It's "froward" behavior and the bible says such is an abomination. So where have I judged you? What are the likely consequences of your disobedience? This isn't rocket science. "The wages of sin is death." (Rom 6:23) Don't be mad at me for your situation or try to shift the blame to me. All you have to do is obey God. That's the solution. If obeying God creates a crisis between you and your institutional church, that's too bad but that's the way it goes. The world was here before your church existed and it will be here after your church is long gone. You're the one who allowed this unhealthy co-dependent relationship to reach the point where your church tells you to disobey God and you think it's OK. It's no one's fault but yours. You've allowed your church to usurp God and conflate themselves with God in your mind. So tell me how I have sat in judgment of you. Anyone can add up 2 plus 2. Don't you admit that you said, "God ...sends people to Hell who don't love Him back." and don't you admit that Jesus said "Call no man your father upon the earth: "for one is your Father, which is in heaven." and you refuse to do as Jesus said? And don't you admit that Jesus said, "He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings." So how am I judging you? You refuse to obey God and He says that means you don't love Him, so how does that make me the bad guy? Just remember, all you have to do is obey God. Stop trying to make Jesus' words "of none effect" (Mar 7:13) with your "clever" arguments and simply do as He said and let the church chips fall where they may. 6 billion plus people on earth get along just fine without your church.
2/1/2016 3:46:22 PM	The ‘Same God’ Question (Part 1)
cupocheer Assumption, IL 67, joined May. 2010
2/6/2016 8:10:37 PM	The ‘Same God’ Question (Part 1)
asanb Sanbornton, NH 60, joined Jul. 2012	Data mining is a strategy that Fortune 500 companies use to discover patterns they can then use to improve their business. Text analytics is one of these “mining” processes, and Tom H.C. Anderson’s OdinText is on the cutting edge of the technology. These research tools are mostly used in the marketing world, but Anderson decided to showcase some other uses of OdinText. “[T]o understand any religion one must start with its literature. So, we thought it would be an interesting exercise to compare the primary books of Islam and Judeo-Christianity… using the advanced data mining technology that Fortune 500 corporations, government agencies and other institutions routinely use to comb through large sets of unstructured text to identify patterns…” ........ To put it simply, Anderson entered the entire Quran along with the Bible into his text analytics program. He then set the tool to seek out specific words and phrases that conveyed emotions and actions such as anger, fear, joy, destruction and killing. We should point out “OdinText initially scans all data with the exact same assumptions. This allows for completely fair and 100 percent consistent coding.” Within two minutes, Anderson had his answers. When compared with the entire Bible, the Quran showed higher rates of the emotions joy and trust. Conversely, it also showed more mentions of fear and anxiety. It’s when the Old and New Testaments were examined separately, though, that more enlightening data came forth. This was done in an effort to separate Judaism, Christianity and Islam, and the results were illuminating, to say the least: “Of the three texts, the content in the Old Testament appears to be the most violent. Killing and destruction are referenced slightly more often in the New Testament (2.8%) than in the Quran (2.1%), but the Old Testament clearly leads—more than twice that of the Quran—in mentions of destruction and killing (5.3%).” You’ll often hear right-wing Christians say that the violence in the Old Testament is no indication of Christianity because the birth of Jesus Christ gave us a clean slate. Even if this is the case, though, this text analytics study shows that even the New Testament contains more violence, murder and destruction than the entirety of the Quran. ' http://reverbpress.com/religion/quran-bible-violence-text-analytics/
2/9/2016 9:15:46 AM	The ‘Same God’ Question (Part 1)
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 63, joined Feb. 2008	The New Testament contains more violence than the Quran? How do you figure that, Asanb? [Edited 2/9/2016 9:16:28 AM ]
2/9/2016 10:22:36 AM	The ‘Same God’ Question (Part 1)
olderthandirt20 Waldron, AR 69, joined Jul. 2014 online now!	Quote from ludlowlowell: The New Testament contains more violence than the Quran? How do you figure that, Asanb? LUD! stop being lazy and read the OP you can read can't you? Read the post above you. [Edited 2/9/2016 10:24:02 AM ]
2/15/2016 8:45:13 AM	The ‘Same God’ Question (Part 1)
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 63, joined Feb. 2008	Wherever you got that quote from, it is obviously from someone who has never actually read the New Testament. There is nothing in the New Testament that calls for violence to be done by humans to humans, except in a few cases were references to violence are used as rhetorical devices. The whole theme of the Quran, on the other hand, is to empower Mohammed's followers to raid, rape, murder, and enslave non-Muslims, and to force them to become Muslims, something Muslims are doing in Nigeria and Sudan and some other places as we speak.
2/15/2016 8:59:01 AM	The ‘Same God’ Question (Part 1)
olderthandirt20 Waldron, AR 69, joined Jul. 2014 online now!	Lud you dingbat it was ran through a computer jezus don't you ever read anything???
2/15/2016 9:03:34 AM	The ‘Same God’ Question (Part 1)
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