Why Do You Love Capitalism? List your reasons?

9/11/2013 10:06:52 AM	Why Do You Love Capitalism? List your reasons?
lobo_corazon Orleans, ON 47, joined May. 2008	Quote from verat: are you really painting russia as an innocent nation? even during peacetime? I'm not sure what you mean by "innocent"? It's pretty hard to be involved in foreign relations and not get someone's nose out of joint. It's probably impossible to be a "great power" and be innocent. Would you agree that they were less "guilty" than Britain? I will admit to being poorly versed on the foreign relations environment in the period between the October Revolution and Stalin's purges (the time when Russia was actually taking a crack at being Socialist) - If you have any particular international wrong-doing they were guilty of during that time in mind, I'd be interested to hear what. The question was, what was it about Socialism that had Mussolini and Churchill so scared? What did they say openly, and what was the backstory? Why "Socialism is a threat" rather than "Russia is a threat"? [Edited 9/11/2013 10:07:16 AM ] Meet singles at DateHookup.dating, we're 100% free! Join now!
9/11/2013 10:16:00 AM	Why Do You Love Capitalism? List your reasons?
lobo_corazon Orleans, ON 47, joined May. 2008	Quote from verat: blame my sloppy wording then, but then i dont know if i would apply the term "nation" to the loose and barely organized tribal system used in the new world. The point is, in the context of contemporary earth- there is no known successful nation that is anywhere near postindustrial. On top of which, even native tribes engaged in classism to a small degree. There just wasn't much for one indian to get over his neighbor. The argument of Capitalists (as expressed in "Atlas Shrugged") is that without idle capitalists to shepherd the working class and collect most of the fruits of our labours, we would all perish. I just don't buy it. It turns out the smartest people in the world are not capitalists. The capitalists are just the richest, and that distinction is completely artificial. Is Christy Walton really a better, more deserving, more important (to humanity) individual than you? (As measured by her fortune, something like a million times more than you?) Flip it around though - How would the capitalists fare if the workers all left them behind? According to Ayn Rand, that would be just groovy - With us out of the way they would be able to get to making some real profits! That just goes to show you how utterly delusional the mythology of Capitalism is. If the working class all vanished, I'd give Christy a month tops before she had to leave her house (food stores running out/spoiled) and got eaten by a pack of feral dogs or something. [Edited 9/11/2013 10:16:31 AM ]
9/11/2013 10:35:38 AM	Why Do You Love Capitalism? List your reasons?
lobo_corazon Orleans, ON 47, joined May. 2008	Quote from verat: i really don't know what the point of this is. I have trouble taking criticism about capitalism from liberals who have benefited enormously from capitalism. How have I benefited from Capitalism, do you figure? Nobody has handed me anything... Except my parents, volunteer coaches and the socialist school system that provided me with a free/subsidized education. None of that was provided as part of any for-profit enterprise. Sure, the Capitalist system that we have happens to be the one that figuratively writes me a paycheck. In a socialist system I'm sure I would thrive as well. Heck, in a feudal system I'd probably be some King's court wizard or something. It turns out the skills I have are very valuable, regardless of the surrounding economic system. For example, my boss doesn't tell me how lucky I am that he hired me. He knows that he's lucky he hired me. Now take the example of a more typical worker - Pulling swing shifts at a fabrication plant (which studies now link with a greatly increased risk of breast cancer in women - If you've ever done it you probably have an idea why) or working two jobs trying to scrape together enough money to give their kids a chance at college. How have they "benefited enormously from Capitalism"? I'm no expert on actual Socialism (as we've never seen it truly put into practice, so it's largely theoretical) but I have trouble with people who swear it couldn't possibly work when they don't even know what it is (i.e. pointing to Stalin, or worse yet Hitler as examples of the evil of Socialism. Anyone who thinks the WWII Nazis were socialist really should just back away from conversations about the issue.)
9/11/2013 10:46:51 AM	Why Do You Love Capitalism? List your reasons?
lobo_corazon Orleans, ON 47, joined May. 2008	not quite the message actually. For another you make a false distinction between capitalists and laborers. Not every laborer is a lazy communist. Obviously not. And communists aren't any lazier than anyone else. The distinction between capitalists and laborers is not at all false. There's the worker, and there's the guy who collects profit from the work done by others (the Capitalist). Obviously if you try really hard you can find fringe examples of some guy who runs a corner store, works long hours and hires a couple of teenagers to help. That guy is a worker, not a capitalist by any sensible distinction. (You could try calculating how many dollars he takes home per hour of productive work if you were looking to draw a line. The corner store owner might make $40 per hour if he's doing well, while a real capitalist would be making millions per hour if they even do any productive work.) I'm sure you could eventually find a definition that said otherwise, but it's irrelevant to this discussion. To be clear, I have no problem with that corner store owner. He is a net contributor to society, most likely. I do have a problem with true idle capitalists like Christy Walton, who siphons away the equivalent of about $30 from every each worker in America each year in exchange for absolutely nothing. And that's just one Capitalist elites. She has several step-siblings who take the same, and they aren't even the biggest drains on you. So why do you love Capitalism - Or put more clearly in the context of this discussion, how do you believe the Christy Waltons of the world benefit you? If Christy Walton and the others where whisked away to Ayn Rand's "Galt Island", do you believe your life would be ruined? [Edited 9/11/2013 10:49:56 AM ]
9/11/2013 10:56:12 AM	Why Do You Love Capitalism? List your reasons?
cupocheer Assumption, IL 67, joined May. 2010	#1 ~~~ because the system has never failed to generate my SS check in a timely manner
9/11/2013 11:15:21 AM	Why Do You Love Capitalism? List your reasons?
thebard58 Hermiston, OR 57, joined Jul. 2010	lobo It is true, as you say, that pure socialism is a theoretical concept that has never actually existed in practice. But then, the same might be said of capitalism. As someone else pointed out, either economic system could be perfectly fine, in a society comprised of aware, responsible, empathetic individuals. (One of the founding fathers of the USA pointed out that the health of our system was dependent upon/demanded the intelligence and moral fortitude of the citizens). The problem with a capitalistic system (from my POV) arises from greed, the abuse of power, and attitudes of entitlement, as opposed to gratitude for the blessings (or just good fortune), and the responsibility to others that should be the effect of success. The same greed, corruption, and abuse of power has tainted any attempt at a socialistic society. As you have mentioned, a purely socialistic society would be (by definition, really) a pure democracy. The problem with that, is that rule by committee is rather inefficient as far as actually getting anything accomplished, and pretty much worthless if expediency is necessary. These considerations are why the founders of the USA (which, by all lights, were very intelligent and foresighted individuals) designed our government as a democratic republic, with built in "checks and balances". When you consider all the facts, it seems to me that... Unless, and until, the human race becomes enlightened, to the point where every individual responsibly considers, and works towards "the needs of the many", and can reach a consensus about priorities and goals, the most reasonable way to deal with things is a balance between political and economic systems. The problem lies, not in the design of the construct, but in the quality/characteristics of the materials comprising it.
9/11/2013 11:17:07 AM	Why Do You Love Capitalism? List your reasons?
thebard58 Hermiston, OR 57, joined Jul. 2010	Quote from cupocheer: #1 ~~~ because the system has never failed to generate my SS check in a timely manner Sarcasm? You do realize that Social Security is a socialistic program?
9/11/2013 11:31:46 AM	Why Do You Love Capitalism? List your reasons?
thebard58 Hermiston, OR 57, joined Jul. 2010	verat Not really. Since the funds are from a tax, and not one in any way contingent upon profit.
9/11/2013 11:56:57 AM	Why Do You Love Capitalism? List your reasons?
peterk2 Fort Lauderdale, FL 55, joined May. 2007	company doesn't make profit, doesn't hire you. you cant pay tax. semantics, commies best friend. besides, the money's been stolen for other things.......that's the beauty of having NO BUDGET [Edited 9/11/2013 11:57:39 AM ]
9/11/2013 12:04:35 PM	Why Do You Love Capitalism? List your reasons?
thebard58 Hermiston, OR 57, joined Jul. 2010	peter SS tax is not dependent upon being employed by someone. Self employed persons are subject to it as well. Other than government employees eligible for PERS as an alternative to SS, the only income not subject to SS tax is "unearned income", which is part and parcel of capitalism. Therefore Social Security is a socialistic program.
9/11/2013 12:43:04 PM	Why Do You Love Capitalism? List your reasons?
thebard58 Hermiston, OR 57, joined Jul. 2010	verat Taxation is a "necessary evil" in any society, regardless of form, if the citizens wish to have the benefit of any public works or services. (Such as police, fire districts, education, etc.). There was a time when I would have agreed with your comments. But when statements by Condor and Lobo led me to more in depth study, I realized that most of us have misconceptions about what the terms actually mean in economic theory. And how they apply to classification/methodology in real world instances.
9/11/2013 1:01:13 PM	Why Do You Love Capitalism? List your reasons?
lobo_corazon Orleans, ON 47, joined May. 2008	Quote from verat: well 1) i dont love capitalism. i just know that taking into consideration humans as they are RIGHT NOW (not some future mythical well bred conscientious and moral humans) capitalism better serves the species than a socialist system would. I wont deny that on paper socialism sounds great, but history has shown that it will invariably be turned into a tool of oppression. As for people like christy walton? i've already said there is abuse even in our system. that being said, the fact is the contemporary post industrial global world would not function without people running multinationals. Would i love it if people at the top got paid less? certainly, but i dont believe having the inefficiencies of govt and the potential for oppression of a communist system is worth it. Walton doesn't run anything - Never has. Her long dead Father-in-law built Walmart (for what that's worth to society), but she's a pure leech. I don't claim that Socialism has all the answers. I honestly don't know nearly as much as I'd like about it, because it's rare to find anyone having an educated discussion about it (as opposed to "Socialism is the devil yuh!" I'm just open to having the discussion. I don't believe your claim "history has shown that it will invariably be turned into a tool of oppression". The native North American society was mostly socialist, and it didn't turn into oppression. More currently Sweden and Australia are quite Socialist, and are generally considered at the very top of lists of places to live/citizen happiness/whatever. Socialist public healthcare systems, public schools, volunteer fire departments, whatever - None of those are tools of oppression. Russia was socialist for a while and then because very oppressive under Stalin - But that isn't "socialism as a tool of oppression". That's dictatorship - The opposite of Socialism. Stalin had the actual socialists rounded up and imprisoned or killed. Why do you suppose he (and Hitler) did that before imposing their dictatorships? A logical person looks at those situations and concludes that Dictatorship is dangerous, not that Socialism is dangerous. It seems obvious to me that the dictators recognized that Socialism would be a threat to them. As for "Who claims WWII Germany was Socialist", I'm quite surprised you haven't heard that one. It's really common around here, so just stay tuned. Chances are if you google "National Socialist German Workers Party" you won't have to look far to find "There, see? Hitler = Socialist!" (He actually probably was a Socialist for a while in his youth, but apparently got kicked out of the party and turned on them, so it's hardly relevant to the crimes of wartime Nazi Germany.) By the way, if you think Germany was just a poor victim to the nasty Russians in WWII, you haven't read much about that front. If the German Wehrmacht had slaughtered 10s of millions of American civilians and burned about 1/3 of the country prior to the Normandy invasion, I expect the counter-attacking GIs would have been a tad pissed off at them too, right? The Soviets who marched on Berlin had left behind bombed out homes, dead wives and children, etc. They had revenge on their minds. And of course 1944 Russia was hardly an example of Marxism. (I gather Marx didn't believe in keeping a standing army, for one.)
9/11/2013 1:46:51 PM	Why Do You Love Capitalism? List your reasons?
condor_0000 Tampa, FL 58, joined Feb. 2013	Quote from verat: the issue is saying "theres never been a truly socialist nation so how can you say it would fail" is like saying Mars must be a better planet because earth is so f**ked up. I guess you're right. There is absolutely no way that the rational organization of society, governed by its productive members could ever be viable. The only way humanity can even survive is for us all to live in a system where a tiny gaggle of criminal, idle, super-rich capitalists rape the living shit out of workers, loot the public till to bankruptcy, wage imperialist wars, engage in one financial crime after another, endlessly print dollar bills in the effort to bail themselves out of their financial crimes, endlessly inflate the currency even as wages are stagnant, kill hundreds of millions of people, torture many more, spy on their own fellow citizens, and lead humanity towards a climate catastrophe of epic proportions. Yep! Capitalism just works! [Edited 9/11/2013 1:48:51 PM ]
9/11/2013 2:02:07 PM	Why Do You Love Capitalism? List your reasons?
condor_0000 Tampa, FL 58, joined Feb. 2013	Quote from verat: condor, you illiterate angry c*nt- I have stated before the CONCEPT of socialism is great, but human nature will invariably cause it to fail. get a grip I guess you're right. There is absolutely no way that the rational organization of society, governed by its productive members could ever be viable. The only way humanity can even survive is for us all to live in a system where a tiny gaggle of criminal, idle, super-rich capitalists rape the living shit out of workers, loot the public till to bankruptcy, wage imperialist wars, engage in one financial crime after another, endlessly print dollar bills in the effort to bail themselves out of their financial crimes, endlessly inflate the currency even as wages are stagnant, kill hundreds of millions of people, torture many more, spy on their own fellow citizens, and lead humanity towards a climate catastrophe of epic proportions. Yep! Capitalism just works!
9/11/2013 2:09:09 PM	Why Do You Love Capitalism? List your reasons?
thebard58 Hermiston, OR 57, joined Jul. 2010	Quote from verat: condor, you illiterate angry c*nt- I have stated before the CONCEPT of socialism is great, but human nature will invariably cause it to fail. get a grip No need for nasty names. Even if he can be sometimes be annoying and antagonistic himself, one really has to respect his dedication to his chosen cause. And (I believe I've mentioned before) the same may be said about capitalism, as you opine about socialism. One difference though... The failure of a (contained) capitalist economy may allow for a select few to escape suffering from it. Not so much of a possibility in the failure of a socialist economy. Since the failure of a capitalist economy could rightfully be considered the responsibility of the same persons who benefit most from it, one might consider the socialist model, even in failure, to be more "fair".
9/11/2013 2:18:17 PM	Why Do You Love Capitalism? List your reasons?
gonetolunch Norman, OK 48, joined Mar. 2013
9/11/2013 2:47:44 PM	Why Do You Love Capitalism? List your reasons?
lobo_corazon Orleans, ON 47, joined May. 2008	Quote from verat: you know i disagree with that statement. Nastive american cultures (not ocounting the south and western dictatorships such as the mayans and aztecs) were if anything- libertarian. Sure people helped each other, but there was no room for layabouts or bums. If a man was injured he still found a way to contribute. You would probably be shocked if you objectively compared Libertarian and Socialist ideals. Libertarians who hate Socialism do so mainly out of ignorance. Right-wing propaganda tells you socialism is about laziness or envy. Minions often accuse me of being envious of Walton when I use her as an example. Of course that's a small-minded accusation - I mean, who doesn't wish they could have anything they want handed to them on a silver platter, once in a while? Anyone who claims they are opposed to the thought of inheriting a fortune is lying to you or to themselves. On the other hand, I counter with "So if a thief was pulling out of your driveway in your car, would you resist the urge to chase him because you don't want to appear jealous of the car he has?" Walton and her peers take their fortune from the fruits of my labour. That's what right-wing minions fail to think through. The billions have to come from somewhere, and the elites aren't doing any productive work themselves... (No, choosing what stock to buy doesn't count as productive work), *therefore their fortune must come from the people who are* doing productive work.** It's elementary. They have designed the system to be so complex that I can see how people overlook this (thinking on some level that the money must be manufactured out of thin air by stock market magic), but when the facts are presented to you in such a straight-forward fashion you have to agree. The fortunes of the elites come from the work of the working class. So what if we stopped giving them a big chunk of the fruits of our labors? That in a nutshell is the question that socialism poses, and I find intriguing. Again, "Atlas Shrugged" claimed that we need the Christy Waltons and Warren Buffetts of the world for our society to survive. We are just ungrateful wretches who don't recognize how much our beatific elites do for us. So I'll bite... What do they do for us?
9/11/2013 3:11:26 PM	Why Do You Love Capitalism? List your reasons?
lobo_corazon Orleans, ON 47, joined May. 2008	Quote from thebard58: No need for nasty names. Even if he can be sometimes be annoying and antagonistic himself, one really has to respect his dedication to his chosen cause. And (I believe I've mentioned before) the same may be said about capitalism, as you opine about socialism. One difference though... The failure of a (contained) capitalist economy may allow for a select few to escape suffering from it. Not so much of a possibility in the failure of a socialist economy. Since the failure of a capitalist economy could rightfully be considered the responsibility of the same persons who benefit most from it, one might consider the socialist model, even in failure, to be more "fair". You are circling around a crucial fact. Socialism can be said to be "great in theory". The same can be said for Capitalism - Great in theory. The theory of Capitalism is that it automatically rewards people for being productive, particularly for producing the things society actually needs (supply and demand). But the rotten core of the apple is that it rewards people even more for being unscrupulous cheats (as well as for getting other people to do the work, but focusing on the former...) Looking at our Capitalist society, you will see that the people who have the most are nowhere close to working the hardest. Most of them are idle heirs who have never really worked - I used to use Paris Hilton as my example, and fan-boys would say "What are you talking about, she works! She's been a model, and she has a perfume line, and a reality show..." lol - I guess with Walton I can get them more focused on the reality of the matter. Capitalism to some extent does reward inventiveness, and that's great... But again, without capitalism inventiveness wouldn't disappear. NASA managed to put a man on the moon without any incentive to turn a profit (and the Soviet "commies" beat you into space.) Scientists by and large do what they do for the love of science. You have to ask yourself what the big fundamental difference between Capitalism and Socialism is, and the answer is Capitalists - That is people who collect the fruits of the labors of many others (and of personal ownership of the country's natural resources) into their own hoard. And I believe we could survive just fine without those folks, despite what Ayn Rand might have claimed. Would society be less productive? Probably, somewhat. But if we assume that the capitalists are currently leeching 50% of what we workers could otherwise keep, then we would need to be only half as productive to stay even... And I have faith that we could pull that off.
9/11/2013 3:20:53 PM	Why Do You Love Capitalism? List your reasons?
lobo_corazon Orleans, ON 47, joined May. 2008	Who does Capitalism reward more? A Wall Street Investment Banker, or an ER triage nurse? How does that disparity help society? The "trickle down" theory is pure bullshit. The capital flows up from us, and then a trickle of the capital we produced comes back down. And we're supposed to be excited about that arrangement? The trickle-down theory is like someone saying "Hey, I pay taxes on tmy welfare check!" (Sad testament to our society - The smartest guy by far from my University Engineering class of really smart guys and gals? Now working on Wall Street instead of inventing cold fusion. He was smart enough to know where the money is. That's what Capitalism makes us.)
9/11/2013 3:41:39 PM	Why Do You Love Capitalism? List your reasons?
lobo_corazon Orleans, ON 47, joined May. 2008	Quote from verat: lobo_corazon: Right-wing propaganda tells you socialism is about laziness or envy. i dont think thats accurate. i think the issue many have with it, is that in socialistic systems- the nonproductive have less motive to be productive. CWe see it all the time with people defrauding workers comp, welfare and unemployment. The only reason more people don't do it is because its difficult to have as many "toys" when you are unemployed. And as I mentioned earlier, I believe most people would continue to happily work for their toys in a socialist society that rewarded work through some simple mechanisms. Just as an example, socialism is generally said to limit private property. So say workers don't own their houses, but instead are provided with a house very close to where they work (as a bonus, that would do wonders for rush-hour traffic!) And if you work at an important/skilled job, the housing you're set up in is significantly nicer than the housing the menial workers are set up in, which are again nicer than the dormitory facilities that would be provided to house the habitually unemployed so they don't starve to death or have to turn to a life of crime. Seems like good incentive to me! Walton and her peers take their fortune from the fruits of my labour. That's what right-wing minions fail to think through. The billions have to come from somewhere, and the elites aren't doing any productive work themselves... (No, choosing what stock to buy doesn't count as productive work) I feel like thats a strwman argument. capitalists generally feel that someone has to be in charge to keep the herd moving properly. 10000 years ago, prehistoric man had a system in play to enforce productivity- work or starve. Socialism says don't work and you still won't starve. And the only reason anyone would agree to provide leadership is if they are handed billions of dollars in exchange? I feel like that's a strawman argument. ive said before that the problem isn't raising wages, it is lowering how much the upper class makes. i still stand by that. Gasp - You socialist! I am in no way defending predatory business practices. I just feel that the world right now at its current level of technology and complexity requires people at the wheel steering society. Any socialistic system BIG enough to take the place of a capitalist one will invariably have overseers/bosses/leader whatever you want to call it. Again, "Atlas Shrugged" claimed that we need the Christy Waltons and Warren Buffetts of the world for our society to survive. We are just ungrateful wretches who don't recognize how much our beatific elites do for us. i dont know if i agree with your summation OF AYN RAND. I agree she does espouse leaders, i just dont think she meant someone like christy walton. as for warren buffet. i think his control of the countries monies has been a good thing. Are you thinking of Ben Bernanke? Warren Buffett is the billionaire hedge fund kingpin, not the Fed Chairman. I understand (again not having had the time to intensively study it or even ever had a conversation with someone who has, unfortunately) that the people like Marx and Trotsky who fleshed out the model for Socialism proposed a lean government staffed by rotating volunteers (rather than the career politicians of today). I'm sure you can see the advantages of that in limiting corruption. Obviously any factory, hospital, whatever needs to have some kind of leadership. (Some people are good at making important decisions and others aren't.) What they don't need is a bunch of stockholders demanding a 20% ROI even if it means offshoring jobs to asia or laying off workers and then making the rest work unpaid overtime to compensate. If there was no stock market, would any of us be worse off somehow? Remember the "too big to fail" debate (such as it was) when Bush was explaining to us that we needed to give our tax dollars to the banks because if they failed, our boss wouldn't have anyone to borrow the money from to make payroll, so we wouldn't get paid? That was one of the most laughable moments of that whole tough period, yet most "Main Street" folks just hung their heads and accepted it. The elites work very hard to get you thinking that their best interest is actually your best interest... Sometimes more blatantly than others! [Edited 9/11/2013 3:43:17 PM ]
9/11/2013 3:45:23 PM	Why Do You Love Capitalism? List your reasons?
illuminati_13 Louisville, KY 23, joined Aug. 2013	My philosophy is that some things need to be socialized, others dont. There has to be a median between capitalism and socialism.
9/11/2013 4:16:48 PM	Why Do You Love Capitalism? List your reasons?
thebard58 Hermiston, OR 57, joined Jul. 2010	Seems to me that everyone (excepting Condor- I suppose) might be able to agree with my catch phrase: Unrestrained capitalism breeds greed, but unmitigated socialism caters to sloth. And the real root of the problem, as verat stated: "...if there is a commodity- whether its power, or gold or money or even toilet paper, someone will try to game the system and take more than their fair share."
9/11/2013 4:32:51 PM	Why Do You Love Capitalism? List your reasons?
lobo_corazon Orleans, ON 47, joined May. 2008	"People will game the system"? Sure. But Capitalism is designed to give most of the money to a few wealthy (generally idle, and often ruthless) elites. That's the starting point, and then people game the system further from there. Socialism is designed to mainly reward the workers who actually produce the capital. Seems like a fundamental advantage for Socialism... If you're a worker, at least!
9/11/2013 4:37:41 PM	Why Do You Love Capitalism? List your reasons?
lobo_corazon Orleans, ON 47, joined May. 2008	Quote from thebard58: Seems to me that everyone (excepting Condor- I suppose) might be able to agree with my catch phrase: Unrestrained capitalism breeds greed, but unmitigated socialism caters to sloth. I think your "unmitigated socialism" is a strawman right-wing talking point that socialism means people who do nothing are rewarded the same as people who work their asses off. I've never heard anyone on the socialist-leaning side suggested that. Can you provide a link to Marx having ever suggested such a thing? I read "The Communist Manifesto" and it wasn't in there, but I'll admit I haven't gone any deeper than that. He did suggest doing away with money (without going too deeply into what exactly would replace it - The Manifesto was really not much more than a short pamphlet) - Certainly a concept that would be worthy of a good debate! "The root of all evil", and all that.
9/11/2013 4:44:39 PM	Why Do You Love Capitalism? List your reasons?
lobo_corazon Orleans, ON 47, joined May. 2008	Quote from shadobee: veret, I would like you to point out in any of Ayn Rand's writing where she said we need the Christy waltons or warren buffets of the world? Look, here is the problem with "capitalism" basically no two people can agree what is capitalism? There has never been pure capitalism any where in the world, the closest America came to capitalism was the industrial age. Today Capitalism is so watered down, its almost a travesty. Wall street is crony capitalism, any business that needs government intervention or special favors from government isn't true capitalism. America formally abandoned capitalism with the passage of the Sherman Antitrust Act in 1890. Since that time, Some businessmen have increasingly used political connections to achieve their business ends, Whether they are lobbying for tougher standards on light bulbs (GE), or using eminent domain to seize private property (Donald Trump), or requesting subsidies for wind farms (T. Boone Pickens), they seek to use the power of government to squelch competitors, artificially inflate prices, or gain some other advantage. Unable to convince consumers and competitors to act voluntarily, they resort to government force. So tell me is this true capitalism? To answer your questions very succinctly, the capitalists you mention aren't "using government" to promote their interests, *they are using their capital.* Government is just one commodity they can buy in your system as it's designed (with only token restrictions on "campaign contributions" by wealthy special interests.) Crony capitalism simply describes how government works as a tool of the capitalists when the capitalists are given too much power. Wall Street isn't crony capitalism - It's just capitalism. Capitalists figuring out ways to get paid without doing any actual productive work. Get an insider tip about what will be in the earnings report, sell the stock short, and presto - You just extracted $10 million from the economy overnight. You are winning the great game of Capitalism, on your way to setting a high score!
9/11/2013 5:46:22 PM	Why Do You Love Capitalism? List your reasons?
lobo_corazon Orleans, ON 47, joined May. 2008	Shadobee, you are looking at this chicken/egg situation the wrong way. The problem isn't that government has too much power, it's that the wealthy elites have too much power. If they weren't using government to put their interests ahead of yours, they would simply use a different tool. For example, unfettered by government controls you would see a mega-corp like Nestle poisoning your water supply so they could sell you water for $10 per bottle. Government is what allows us to have a civilization. The alternative is Somalia. So you can't rationally just do away with government... So why not look at reducing the wealthy elites instead? What do they do for you? [Edited 9/11/2013 5:48:06 PM ]
9/11/2013 6:40:33 PM	Why Do You Love Capitalism? List your reasons?
condor_0000 Tampa, FL 58, joined Feb. 2013	Capitalism and Big Government Military Cancer
9/11/2013 7:07:49 PM	Why Do You Love Capitalism? List your reasons?
condor_0000 Tampa, FL 58, joined Feb. 2013	Quote from shadobee: Again you incorrect, if the wealthy had too much power half the regulations wouldn't exist, Certainly Obama wouldn't have been elected and re elected. Many of the 1% didn't want Wall street to be bailed out and yada, yada, yada . . . If the 1% didn't want the bank bailouts, there would have been no bank bailouts. It is that 1% who would have faced the steepest losses without the bailout and it was the 1% who were the leading beneficiaries of the bailout. Today, the working class has taken another one right on the chin while the 1% are richer, fatter and happier than ever. ------- Wealthiest Americans Take Home Biggest Share of Income Ever Recorded Whose recovery, you ask? Why, the top 1 percent's, of course. September 11, 2013 http://www.alternet.org/economy/wealthiest-americans-take-home-50-all-income Obama campaign raises record sums from the wealthy By Patrick Martin 15 July 2011 World Socialist Web Site http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2011/07/fund-j15.html [Edited 9/11/2013 7:09:30 PM ]
9/12/2013 2:19:43 PM	Why Do You Love Capitalism? List your reasons?
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 63, joined Feb. 2008 online now!	Condor, Marx might have defined socialism as government by the working class, but in actual practice socialism means business owned by government, and run by government bureacrats. It doesn't work. It never has. And it has been tried by in all kinds of nations all over the world and various times in history. According to the Bible the early Christians held everything in common. What the Bible doesn't say is that the next generation of Christians, the generation that came after the apostles, had to stop this practice because it just wasn't working. Winston Churchill was not a fascist. Winston Churchill, more than any one man, is responsible for the defeat of fascism. While Britain was fighting Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy all by itself, Communist Russia was allied with, and supplying with raw materials, Nazi Germany, until Hitler invaded Russia, and all of a sudden the evil Winston Churchill became, to the Russians, the great man Winston Churchill. I am fair enough to recognize that not all liberalism is socialism or communisim. I think you liberals and socialists should be fair enough to recognize that not all conservatism is fascism.
9/12/2013 2:36:10 PM	Why Do You Love Capitalism? List your reasons?
manointegrity Romulus, MI 36, joined Jun. 2013	Self determination. I can chose my own path and decide what I want to do in life. Rather then being handed a toilet plunger by someone wearing a lab coat holding a chart who says what my skills level is and what my job will be.
9/12/2013 3:29:31 PM	Why Do You Love Capitalism? List your reasons?
lobo_corazon Orleans, ON 47, joined May. 2008	Quote from shadobee: Again you incorrect, if the wealthy had too much power half the regulations wouldn't exist, Certainly Obama wouldn't have been elected and re elected. Many of the 1% didn't want Wall street to be bailed out, or agree to Dodd/frank act. By the way I didn't say do away with government, Ive often said we need LESS government, if government did what they are supposed to do like the founding fathers envisioned I would have no problem with them. The example you gave about Nestle is typical leftist propaganda, in a unfettered system, the government would be free to prosecute Nestle because of fraud and destroying the environment. The government is supposed to be there to protect our rights, protect us from domestic and foreign invasion and free to go after these people/corporation. All due respect, it's clear you have no idea what you are talking about. You are confusing government with Capitalism. Apples and BMWs. Government regulation (specifically of corporations) is necessary because without it, corporate profiteers would absolutely ruin the environment, poison people, squander scarce natural resources, put people out of work and out of their homes, and anything else they can think up to increase their profits. If you don't believe that, you simply haven't been paying attention because you've been around long enough to observe the evolution of the tobacco industry - Maybe the perfect example of what I'm talking about. They engineered their product not to give a better customer experience, but specifically to cause physiological addiction with a ccktail of additives tailored to get the users hooked. Then they engaged in a heated campaign for years to fool the public into disbelieving the evidence that was staring them in the face, that their product caused a greatly increased risk of cancer and premature death. So how exactly is my example "leftist propaganda"? Do you really* believe corporations have your best interests in mind, or can be in any way trusted by the public? The biggest problem with Capitalism is the benevolent cycle that works on a small scale just doesn't scale up. The system is designed for the rich to get richer, and the bigger that gap grows between the wealthy (and huge corporations, now considered people themselves) and we "Main Street" folks, the more power they hold over us and the more they can screw with us - And they will do it, because they can. If a blacksmith in a small frontier town deceived his customers by not giving them what he promised, using crappy materials that would soon break, etc - The townsfolk would have run him out. Nowadays - Well, have you ever heard of a town running Walmart out? (Occasionally a town council will refuse to let them in in the first place, but once they are in they are there to stay.)
9/12/2013 3:38:18 PM	Why Do You Love Capitalism? List your reasons?
lobo_corazon Orleans, ON 47, joined May. 2008	Quote from ludlowlowell: Condor, Marx might have defined socialism as government by the working class, but in actual practice socialism means business owned by government, and run by government bureacrats. It doesn't work. It never has. And it has been tried by in all kinds of nations all over the world and various times in history. According to the Bible the early Christians held everything in common. What the Bible doesn't say is that the next generation of Christians, the generation that came after the apostles, had to stop this practice because it just wasn't working.. I'd love to see your source for that... But in the meantime, let's cut to the chase - You're saying Christ was wrong?
9/12/2013 3:58:48 PM	Why Do You Love Capitalism? List your reasons?
lobo_corazon Orleans, ON 47, joined May. 2008	Quote from verat: i'd like to see your proof that is does work lobo. You need to be more specific, because it sounds like you want me to conduct some grand experiment to prove that Socialism is viable. Obviously I don't have that power (that's very unfortunate too, because it might literally save the world!), but you might want to read up on this "Venus Project" Tony talks about. It sounds like it is along the lines of what you are asking for.
9/12/2013 4:28:02 PM	Why Do You Love Capitalism? List your reasons?
thebard58 Hermiston, OR 57, joined Jul. 2010	The biggest problem with Capitalism is the benevolent cycle that works on a small scale just doesn't scale up. The system is designed for the rich to get richer, and the bigger that gap grows between the wealthy (and huge corporations, now considered people themselves) and we "Main Street" folks, the more power they hold over us and the more they can screw with us - And they will do it, because they can. If a blacksmith in a small frontier town deceived his customers by not giving them what he promised, using crappy materials that would soon break, etc - The townsfolk would have run him out. Nowadays - Well, have you ever heard of a town running Walmart out? (Occasionally a town council will refuse to let them in in the first place, but once they are in they are there to stay.) I find that to be a pretty reasonable analysis. I think the biggest problem that many of us have, who are sympathetic to the ideals of socialism (greater economic equity in society), is that implementation of a socialist economy is pretty much diametrically opposed to libertarianism. It would seem that there is no way to accomplish a socialistic economy, without monolithic, all pervasive government. Also, we would like to (as much as possible) to retain the ability of the sole proprietor (the blacksmith in your example) to conduct his business as he sees fit, and reap the benefits, or suffer the consequences, by "the will of the people", more or less (minimum government intervention- such as being sued by any consumer he defrauds or damages). Personally, (and I have said this before) I think the concept of incorporation, in an of itself, is a huge part of the problem with the current system. Take this away, and the owners of a company would be personally responsible for the actions of said firm, which would (one might hope) place greater constraint upon immoral and usurious action. (Such as the tobacco companies).
9/12/2013 4:36:26 PM	Why Do You Love Capitalism? List your reasons?
lobo_corazon Orleans, ON 47, joined May. 2008	Quote from shadobee: Again Lobo,you are so incorrect. The tobacco industry ? that is the crux of your argument? Look tobacco industry has been around in the US since the 1600's Right up to the year 1883, tobacco excise tax accounted for one third of internal revenue collected by the American government. Silent movies of yesteryear glorified smoking, you say the tobacco companies knew of the dangers of smoking well so did the feds and they did shit about it, why ?? REVENUE. Exactly. Capitalism. Thank you for proving my point. Capitalism is designed for the productive people to get RICH... Wow - That's such a load of crap it's tough to even respond to. How many people do you know well (I don't mean you heard them on TV, let's say people you've sat down to dinner with in a small group) who work hard to produce something that actually adds value to society? How many of them became truly rich (i.e. they no longer have a financial care in the world) on the payments they received for those goods or services they provided? You could argue that what you said is an ideal behind capitalism, but what is that 0% success rate telling you? absolutely but not everyone is productive in society, the reason why the rich today get richer isn't because of capitalism , its because they know how to get around loopholes in the income tax act, they don't think like 99% ers, except for trust fund babies which I have no use for, the self made person in spite of the bad government regulations who are the productive members deserves to get rich. Why do you imagine they "deserve" so much more than you? Is Warren Buffett really a million times more valuable to society than you are? It sounds like you've been thoroughly brainwashed with nonsense. Buffett has probably done some valuable stuff that I'm just not aware of. Let's say he has contributed $2,000,000 of real value to society. So why not reward him for it with $2,000,000, instead of $60,000,000,000? Wouldn't that be much more fair? As in for your walmart scenario? Walmart provides JOBS, more Jobs than what ever business in that town that was forced to close because they couldn't compete, what is wrong with that? That's just silly. Jobs are only created by increasing demand, not by increasing supply - That's elementary economics. All Walmart has the power to do is move jobs around... And then cut many of those jobs because they can do the same thing with less people due to "economies of scale". (Of course to a Capitalist those layoffs are a good thing, and will cause an immediate bump in the stock price. They call it "rightsizing" these days.) Are you upset because Gates, Jobs,Dell,Fred Smith and others like him got rich , they chose to be innovators and got rich because of it and some of them takes advantage of a income tax loophole the GOVERNMENT set up? Why aren't you pissed at the Government for setting up the loopholes in the first place? people like you choose to be pissed at multinational corporation for their "greed" but when it comes to Microsoft, Google,Facebook and others that employes a tax strategy called " the double Irish tax scheme" yet you turn a blind eye and save your wrath for the other companies doing the exact same thing and then blames Capitalism? Hypocritical I say. That's because you're new, and missed my thread on the Double Irish Dutch Sandwich and Apple a few months ago. They say ignorance shouldn't be a defense though.
9/12/2013 4:40:04 PM	Why Do You Love Capitalism? List your reasons?
illuminati_13 Louisville, KY 23, joined Aug. 2013	Lobo Especially to the warren buffet thing.
9/12/2013 5:41:31 PM	Why Do You Love Capitalism? List your reasons?
leeag Milwaukee, WI 48, joined May. 2011	Quote from verat: communism or socialism both are means of oligarchies wresting control Look into campaign financing and then tell me again that America isn't an oligarchy
9/12/2013 8:13:34 PM	Why Do You Love Capitalism? List your reasons?
lobo_corazon Orleans, ON 47, joined May. 2008	Quote from shadobee: Im new on here, you expected me to go through YOUR THREADS? are you kidding me? I have no idea what you've said nor am I going to look, you want to re post it here I will read it. Nope, I didn't say anything of the sort. I was just pointing out that you were completely wrong again when you assumed I was somehow hypocritically supportive of Apple's tax shenanigans. I am unfailingly consistent. Practically every product you've consumed,wore,tried,played with,drove was created by someone so they obviously provided some value , yeah yeah we have basic needs but im sure you have a computer/laptop/smart phone? you use facebook,google, maybe yahoo etc. Yep - And the people who make those things make what, $1 per hour on average? Those aren't capitalists in case you weren't clear. You mentioned Warren Buffet, not sure what your point is, you say he didn't create a thing? that is true but obviously there was a market for his specialty( seed capital and investing so companies can grow and PROFIT) otherwise he wouldn't be successful and those that invested with him are pretty happy those that did not criticizes him because he doesn't contribute to society? what ever....... he makes people rich, oh what about the charities he contributes to help the poor? yeah. Sorry - You won't get me all excited about someone taking 60 billion from labor of the working class and then tossing a few billion back. He's just less of a problem than the capitalists who hoard it all. And give me a break with the "seed capital" rhetoric. That isn't what the stock market is for, at all. What Walmart does for a community you will never know unless you sit on the ity/municipal government. Now I do believe that adults working at Walmart expecting a living wage is out to lunch, those jobs are for teenagers or seniors wanting a little extra money, if youre a adult that has a family and has to work at Walmart well you be ashamed of yourself for not preparing for the real world but that is another topic. So you don't see any problem with Walmart sweeping into a town, crushing all the little local guys who run their own small hardware, electronics or furniture stores, and then replacing those jobs with minimum wage employment suitable for a teenager? That's your idea of a Capitalist utopia? That's just sad.
9/12/2013 8:38:58 PM	Why Do You Love Capitalism? List your reasons?
cupocheer Assumption, IL 67, joined May. 2010	#2 ~~ It's the American way.
9/13/2013 11:25:22 AM	Why Do You Love Capitalism? List your reasons?
thebard58 Hermiston, OR 57, joined Jul. 2010	I don't even want to get into the specifics of Wal-mart's practices. In a nutshell- the company presents a facade of decency to gloss over a very predatory entity. Not that it has no good points (the stores do provide employment for some otherwise unemployable persons), but the negative aspects make this company one of the worst examples of capitalism in practice, that I have seen.
9/13/2013 1:03:05 PM	Why Do You Love Capitalism? List your reasons?
lobo_corazon Orleans, ON 47, joined May. 2008	Quote from verat: then you have to acknowledge the weakness of your stance and the skepticism of people about it. By "my stance" I guess you mean having an open mind about other options? No, I don't have to apologize for that.
9/13/2013 1:38:12 PM	Why Do You Love Capitalism? List your reasons?
lobo_corazon Orleans, ON 47, joined May. 2008	You're just hearing only what you want to hear I guess. I've clearly never "espoused socialism" as if it has all the answers. Like I keep saying, I would need to hear more about it. Questioning is at the heart of learning and improving. But the problems with Capitalism are obvious, and when I question them the fanboys just stick their heads in the sand or resort to ad hominem personal attacks because they hit too close to the mark. How the f--k does it benefit society that Christy Walton is handed $4 billion a year (that obviously is extracted from the working class who produce all capital) for absolutely nothing? How is that remotely rational to anyone? The only way I can see people continuing to support it is good ol' blind faith, the sort that the congregation at Jonestown had as they partook of that original "drinking the koolaid" experience. How the f--k does commodity speculation (with no intention to ever take delivery of the product) help society? How about "short selling"? "Put-Call spreads"? Heck, if we can agree to simply shut down the stock markets, that would be a huge boon to the working class right there! How the f--k can supply and demand set a fair price for healthcare? What is the fair market value for your child's life? How can the capitalist fundamentals of sellers having a profit incentive to provide the products that people need work in the insurance industry where the golden rule is to avoid selling insurance to the people who actually need it? Especially for a basic human right like healthcare? Is your mind open enough to consider, and hopefully answer those questions?
9/13/2013 2:21:04 PM	Why Do You Love Capitalism? List your reasons?
lobo_corazon Orleans, ON 47, joined May. 2008	Quote from verat: you keep using condescending terms like fanboys, but get mad when people say you espouse socialism? I maintain that the inherent flaws in capitalism, are actually the inherent flaws in humanity. no system will be free of them. simple as that. lol - How is it "mad" to inform you that I don't espouse socialism? Your argument is valid, and is certainly worth due consideration. But can you answer any of the questions I posed? Granted, humanity is flawed. But how do billion-dollar capital gains handouts to idle elites, or the stock market help to mitigate those inherent problems in our nature? Why not simply do away with them? What if we keep offering profit in exchange for productive work... But when you stop being productive you stop getting profit? Pay people for their productivity, instead of mainly for being wealthy already? Too simple?
9/13/2013 4:44:03 PM	Why Do You Love Capitalism? List your reasons?
lobo_corazon Orleans, ON 47, joined May. 2008	I'm not the one saying Socialism can't possibly work, so who knows where you came up with me being "all or nothing". I'm a problem solver, so naturally I look to take the best from the alternatives offered. Like I said, why not get rid of the Stock Market for starters and see where we are? You are correct people do need leadership - That's why the Laissez Faire Libertarian/rugged individualist ideals fail. Civilization needs police, judges, etc period. And we need someone to decide how best to allocate the capital. What we don't need is for the people allocating the capital to be motivated by personal profit. Obviously when that is the case they are going to make the decisions that profit them personally rather than the decisions that benefit the community. That kind of leadership (John Galt's capitalist elites) I can happily do without. [Edited 9/13/2013 4:47:42 PM ]
9/13/2013 4:46:15 PM	Why Do You Love Capitalism? List your reasons?
illuminati_13 Louisville, KY 23, joined Aug. 2013	Quote from lobo_corazon: I'm not the one saying Socialism can't possibly work, so who knows where you came up with me being "all or nothing". I'm a problem solver, so naturally I look to take the best from the alternatives offered. Like I said, why not get rid of the Stock Market for starters and see where we are? if we get rid of the stock market, how will the super rich rape everybody else and keep control of goods and services?
9/13/2013 4:48:44 PM	Why Do You Love Capitalism? List your reasons?
lobo_corazon Orleans, ON 47, joined May. 2008	Yes, that is a problem with my plan. Not for me, mind you...
9/13/2013 5:19:14 PM	Why Do You Love Capitalism? List your reasons?
lobo_corazon Orleans, ON 47, joined May. 2008	Verat, why do you keep dodging the obvious? "Inventors" and "the wealthy" are not the same people. The vast majority of creative endeavors come from middle class people who are middle class until they die. This is obvious, right? What contemporary capitalism rewards best is creativity directed specifically towards taking capital from other people for yourself. (Hence the "Sub-prime mortgage backed security" bubble, and my top-of-Engineering-classmate who shunned science for Investment Banking.) Most capitalists are non-productive. They flip stocks around, buying, selling, shorting, whatever. Yet they receive billions (trillions in total). Obviously that money comes from somewhere, and the source is the work you and I do. That is the rotten core of the apple that is Capitalism, and the reason I can't buy in to it. If that evil the best our Humanity can do, then maybe we should just nuke the place to glass and try again.
9/13/2013 5:26:09 PM	Why Do You Love Capitalism? List your reasons?
tonyc4444 Tampa, FL 33, joined Aug. 2010	Quote from lobo_corazon: Verat, why do you keep dodging the obvious? "Inventors" and "the wealthy" are not the same people. The vast majority of creative endeavors come from middle class people who are middle class until they die. This is obvious, right? What contemporary capitalism rewards best is creativity directed specifically towards taking capital from other people for yourself. (Hence the "Sub-prime mortgage backed security" bubble, and my top-of-Engineering-classmate who shunned science for Investment Banking.) Most capitalists are non-productive. They flip stocks around, buying, selling, shorting, whatever. Yet they receive billions (trillions in total). Obviously that money comes from somewhere, and the source is the work you and I do. That is the rotten core of the apple that is Capitalism, and the reason I can't buy in to it. If that evil the best our Humanity can do, then maybe we should just nuke the place to glass and try again. I'm just gonna go out on a limb and say that most (middle/poor anyway) people understand that Capitalism isn't the best humans can do, but it's the best we can do so far. If all things are working as they are supposed to (and they aren't right now) Capitalism works great. It works only slightly better than Socialism as it actually addresses human nature. Neither are perfect, far from it.
9/13/2013 6:09:04 PM	Why Do You Love Capitalism? List your reasons?
condor_0000 Tampa, FL 58, joined Feb. 2013	Quote from tonyc4444: I'm just gonna go out on a limb and say that most (middle/poor anyway) people understand that Capitalism isn't the best humans can do, but it's the best we can do so far. If all things are working as they are supposed to (and they aren't right now) Capitalism works great. It works only slightly better than Socialism as it actually addresses human nature. Neither are perfect, far from it. But you say that as you live on the happy-faced side of capitalism. The overwhelming percentage of the worlds people live on the ugly-faced side. A full 80% of the worlds people toil long, hard days while earning $10 per day or less. Almost half of the people in the world earn only $2.50 per day or less. Any better life enjoyed by the people of the happy-faced world of capitalism was always counter-balanced by massive poverty and misery in the much larger slave-labor designated parts of the world. Additionally, the crisis of capitalism demands that an ever-increasing share of the wealth created by workers must go to the richest capitalists to fund their wants and needs, from capitalist bailouts to corporate subsidies to military spending to imperialist wars. The future of capitalism is even more poverty and misery than the world faces today. ------------- Socialism or barbarism? Saturday, August 2, 2008 By Ian Angus http://www.greenleft.org.au/node/40018#sthash.in4YCMXa.dpuf Excerpt: Two faces But Luxemburg, again following the example of Marx and Engels, also used the term "barbarism" another way, to contrast capitalism's loudly proclaimed noble ideals with its actual practice of torture, starvation, murder and war. Marx many times described the two-sided nature of capitalist "progress". In 1853, writing about British rule in India, he described the "profound hypocrisy and inherent barbarism of bourgeois civilization [that] lies unveiled before our eyes, turning from its home, where it assumes respectable forms, to the colonies, where it goes naked." Capitalist progress, he said in The Future Results of British Rule in India, resembled a "hideous, pagan idol, who would not drink the nectar but from the skulls of the slain". Similarly, in a speech to radical workers in London in 1856, he said: "On the one hand, there have started into life industrial and scientific forces, which no epoch of the former human history had ever suspected. On the other hand, there exist symptoms of decay, far surpassing the horrors recorded of the latter times of the Roman Empire." Immense improvements to the human condition have been made under capitalism — in health, culture, philosophy, literature, music and more. But capitalism has also led to starvation, destitution, mass violence, torture and even genocide — on an unprecedented scale. As capitalism has expanded, the barbarous side of its nature has come ever more to the fore. - Bourgeois society, which came to power promising equality, democracy, and human rights, has never had any compunction about throwing those ideals overboard to expand and protect its wealth and profits. That's the view of barbarism that Luxemburg wrote in The Junius Pamhplet: "Shamed, dishonoured, wading in blood and dripping in filth, this capitalist society stands ... as an orgy of anarchy, as pestilential breath, devastating culture and humanity ... A look around us at this moment shows what the regression of bourgeois society into barbarism means." [Edited 9/13/2013 6:11:38 PM ]
9/13/2013 6:13:04 PM	Why Do You Love Capitalism? List your reasons?
tonyc4444 Tampa, FL 33, joined Aug. 2010	Quote from condor_0000: But you say that as you live on the happy-faced side of capitalism. The overwhelming percentage of the worlds people live on the ugly-faced side. A full 80% of the worlds people toil long, hard days while earning $10 per day or less. Almost half of the people in the world earn only $2.50 per day or less. Any better life enjoyed by the people of the happy-faced world of capitalism was always counter-balanced by massive poverty and misery in the slave-labor designated parts of the world. Additionally, the crisis of capitalism demands that an ever-increasing share of the wealth created by workers must go to the richest capitalists to fund their wants and needs, from capitalist bailouts to corporate subsidies to military spending to imperialist wars. The future of capitalism is even more poverty and misery that the world faces today. ." The same has been true of Socialism and Communism so far any time it's been tried. The only difference the richest people wind up in power and everyone slaves away for them. I understand what Socialism and Communism want to do, it's pure in motive, but in practice it has fallen short because it for some reason assumes that the people in power are going to do what's best for the people. That's just against general human nature. Which is why neither will work until money and power are taken out of the equation altogether. Hence the Venus Project. I'm actually curious what your thoughts on the Venus Project are sense it's essentially Communism in it's purest form with out the bullshit of money and dictators getting in the way.
9/13/2013 6:16:14 PM	Why Do You Love Capitalism? List your reasons?
condor_0000 Tampa, FL 58, joined Feb. 2013	Quote from tonyc4444: The same has been true of Socialism and Communism so far any time it's been tried. The right-wing counter-revolution against socialism, quite obviously, is not socialism. ----------- The Revolution Betrayed Leon Trotsky (1936) http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1936/revbet/ [Edited 9/13/2013 6:17:02 PM ]
9/13/2013 6:18:10 PM	Why Do You Love Capitalism? List your reasons?
tonyc4444 Tampa, FL 33, joined Aug. 2010	And this is why you and I don't converse more. Clearly you didn't even bother to read everything I wrote, or just decided to ignore the majority of it. To the point you even ignored where I agreed with you.
9/13/2013 6:44:25 PM	Why Do You Love Capitalism? List your reasons?
condor_0000 Tampa, FL 58, joined Feb. 2013	Quote from tonyc4444: And this is why you and I don't converse more. Clearly you didn't even bother to read everything I wrote, or just decided to ignore the majority of it. To the point you even ignored where I agreed with you. I read your entire post. But you have no idea how f**king tired I get of people repeating the same idiotic, capitalist-propaganda bull-shit about, "The same has been true of Socialism and Communism so far any time it's been tried." There is no history of socialism evolving into an evil, totalitarian, Stalinist, state. It has never happened. Nobody can point to such a thing ever happening. What has happened is that socialism has been beaten back by a savage right-wing counter-attack. I have no opinion yet on the Venus Project. In fact, I had never heard of it until I saw it mentioned on here a day or two ago. I briefly looked over their web site as well as Wikipedia, but not sufficiently to be able to form an opinion and post a comment. [Edited 9/13/2013 6:45:52 PM ]
9/13/2013 6:51:36 PM	Why Do You Love Capitalism? List your reasons?
tonyc4444 Tampa, FL 33, joined Aug. 2010	Quote from condor_0000: I read your entire post. But you have no idea how f**king tired I get of people repeating the same idiotic, capitalist-propaganda bull-shit about, "The same has been true of Socialism and Communism so far any time it's been tried." There is no history of socialism evolving into an evil, totalitarian, Stalinist, state. It has never happened. Nobody can point to such a thing ever happening. What has happened is that socialism has been beaten back by a savage right-wing counter-attack. I have no opinion yet on the Venus Project. In fact, I had never heard of it until I saw it mentioned on here a day or two ago. I briefly looked over their web site as well as Wikipedia, but not sufficiently to be able to form an opinion and post a comment. Ok, well you can't blame us when the socialists and/or communists come into power and then suddenly decide they are going to be far right wing. Hitler, Stalin, Mao all claimed to be Socialists or communists, so excuse the rest of the world for assuming they were.
9/14/2013 12:02:56 AM	Why Do You Love Capitalism? List your reasons?
lobo_corazon Orleans, ON 47, joined May. 2008	Quote from verat: lobo- without capital an invention will never be disseminated to the populace. Some dink in the foothill of colorado invents a magical car engine, no one would ever see it without investors. Completely wrong. What is the stock price of NASA? Inventions and innovations come out of university grad students all the time. And if that inventor in Colorado produced an engine, obviously a government of the people would use it. Why would you imagine they would ignore it? i dont say ALL investors and wealthy are producers, but many are! they are a vital and necessary role in contemporary earth. Give me an example of someone who is a billionaire, who has clearly produced even one billion dollars worth of benefit for society. See if you can find one. I'm talking personal productivity obviously, not "they started some company, and the company eventually grew and hundreds of thousands of employees built a lot of iPhones" or whatever. Personal productivity. You've been brainwashed to believe something that just isn't so. All starry-eyed idolatry aside, like I said earlier, if Warren Buffett has done something that was worth a couple million, let him have a couple million. Not sixty billion! And now that he's doing nothing of value late in his life, stop shovelling billions more to him every year! He can't even figure out what to do with it all! It's so senseless. [Edited 9/14/2013 12:04:37 AM ]
9/14/2013 3:02:24 AM	Why Do You Love Capitalism? List your reasons?
condor_0000 Tampa, FL 58, joined Feb. 2013	Quote from tonyc4444: Ok, well you can't blame us when the socialists and/or communists come into power and then suddenly decide they are going to be far right wing. Hitler, Stalin, Mao all claimed to be Socialists or communists, so excuse the rest of the world for assuming they were. Are you always duped by every statement made by politicians? Does Obama's every statement leave you duped? Did Bush's every statement leave you duped? If I constantly said the stupid, idiotic, nonsensical, unsupported crap that capitalism lovers say on here every day, over and over again, I would be too embarrassed to ever visit this site again. You get away with repeatedly saying stupid shit because that stupid shit is the conventional wisdom in our society. Lots of people mindlessly say it, so it's just A-okay to be dumb as a red brick. The stupidity shared by our society's capitalist masses makes your own stupidity perfectly acceptable. Here's the simple thing to remember for the next time you decide to state that Hitler, Stalin and Mao were socialists: The leading socialists of the day knew those people weren't socialists. They weren't confused. They weren't cheering for Hitler, Stalin and Mao. So why are you today, all these decades later, too stupid to know they weren't socialists? Answer: Because today's right-wing capitalists seek to use that propaganda lie to discredit socialism by claiming that widely-hated, murderous, right-wing dictators of history were socialists. Right-wingers like to make the claim that Stalin, Mao and Hitler were socialists even as there was nothing socialist about any of those people, nor were the governments and societies over which they ruled socialist. The societies over which those people ruled were either capitalist or simply transformed into capitalism at some later date without revolution. That is because they were never socialist in the first place. In the case of Stalin, his bloody, right-wing, counter-revolution against socialism had taken place decades previously in the mid-1930s. That's why there was no bloody, right-wing revolution necessary in 1989 when the Soviet Union simply adopted capitalism. People like you make the claim that Stalin, Hitler and Mao were socialist, and seemingly believe that claim, only because you've never in your life read anything at all written by the great socialist minds of history. Everything you "know" about socialism came from Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter and similar propaganda filth. Since you're completely ignorant of socialism, as well as being too stupid to understand a little simple logic, you can state over and over and over again that Hitler, Stalin and Mao were socialists without suffering the embarrassment for making stupid, ignorant, idiotic statements that you should be suffering You know, when I was growing up, nobody ever suggested that Hitler was a socialist. Nobody, ever! I never heard even the most idiotic Republican make such claim on Meet the Press. No Nazis ever came on Phil Donahue and claimed to be left-wing. They all hated the left-wing with a passion. Today, right-wingers pretend to suddenly be confused by the issue. They're all pretty darn sure Hitler was a socialist. The name "National Socialism" is their leading proof. "It has 'socialism' right there in the title so it MUST be socialism,' is their mind-numbing claim. They weren't confused by Nazism 30 years ago. Thirty years ago everybody knew and acknowledged that the Nazis were right-wing. Right-wingers never find themselves confused by the name "Democratic People's Republic of Korea." If right-wingers are all so stupid that they are so easily confused just by a name, why doesn't that name confuse them? The Nazi Party still exists and nobody ever accuses them of being anything other than right-wing. It's only Hitler and the Nazis of the past where right-wingers suddenly become stupid and confused. What is happening today is that the right-wing is attempting to escape their Nazi heritage while at the same time attempting to use their own widely-hated, murderous, disastrous, Nazi heritage to discredit socialism. Once again, the socialists of the day knew Hitler wasn't a socialist. They weren't confused. Germany's big business tycoons weren't confused. Many American business tycoons of the era absolutely f**king loved Hitler and the Nazis. They weren't confused. The right-wingers of 70 -80 years ago weren't confused by Nazism. They loved it! So why are today's right-wing political "experts" too stupid to recognize a socialist from a Nazi all these decades later? [Edited 9/14/2013 3:04:04 AM ]
9/15/2013 11:02:11 AM	Why Do You Love Capitalism? List your reasons?
condor_0000 Tampa, FL 58, joined Feb. 2013	Richard Wilkinson: How Economic Inequality Harms Societies We feel instinctively that societies with huge income gaps are somehow going wrong. Richard Wilkinson charts the hard data on economic inequality, and shows what gets worse when rich and poor are too far apart: real effects on health, lifespan, even such basic values as trust. In "The Spirit Level," Richard Wilkinson charts data that proves societies that are more equal are healthier, happier societies.

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