The book of Revelation as "liturgy".

3/13/2014 3:43:08 PM	The book of Revelation as "liturgy".
mindya Vancouver, BC 63, joined Jan. 2009	It was brought up in my other thread about the book of revelation for use in liturgy. This is from a RC website - by posting this I'm not saying I agree with what is presented: The Biblical and Heavenly Roots of the Sacred Liturgy. By: Msgr. Charles Pope Catholics are often unaware just how Biblical the Sacred Liturgy is. The design of our traditional churches, the use of candles, incense, golden vessels, the postures of standing and kneeling, the altar, the singing of hymns, priests wearing albs and so forth are all depicted in the Scriptures. Some of these details were features of the ancient Jewish Temple, but most all of these are reiterated in the Book of Revelation which describes the liturgy of heaven. The liturgy here on earth is modeled after the liturgy in heaven and that is why it is so serious to tamper with it. The Book of Revelation describes the heavenly liturgy and focuses on a scroll or book which contains the meaning of life and the answers to all we seek. It also focuses the Lamb of God, standing but with the marks of slaughter upon it. Does this not sound familiar? It is the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist. We do well to be aware of the Biblical roots of the Sacred Liturgy not only for our own edification but also as an answer to Protestant Christians who have largely set aside these rituals and, some of whom, criticize our use of them. Many people consider our rituals empty and vain, “smells and bells.” Some consider austere liturgical environments devoid of much ritual to be “purer,” and closer to the worship in “spirit and in truth” that Jesus spoke of in John 4. To such criticisms we must insist that these rituals, properly understood, are mystical and deeply biblical. Further, they are elements of the heavenly liturgy since almost all of them are mentioned as aspects of the worship or liturgy that takes place in heaven. In this light it is a serious mistake to set them aside or have a dismissive attitude toward them. With that in mind we ought to consider the Biblical references to the most common elements of Catholic and Orthodox liturgies. I place an ocassional note in Red where it seems appropriate. Candles: Rev 1:12-13 Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands, and in the midst of the lampstands one like a son of man. In traditional catholic parishes there are six candles on the high altar and a seventh candle is brought out when the bishop is present. Rev 4:6 Seven flaming torches burned in front of the throne. Altar: Rev 9:13 The sixth angel sounded his trumpet, and I heard a voice coming from the horns of the golden altar that is before God. Rev 8:3 Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne. Chair: Rev 4:1 and lo, a throne stood in heaven, with one seated on the throne! And he who sat there appeared like jasper and carnelian, and round the throne was a rainbow that looked like an emerald…. Daniel 7:9 As I looked, thrones were placed and one that was ancient of days took his seat;… In the sacred liturgy the Chair of the priest is prominent. But, as he takes his seat we are invited not to see Father Jones, but rather the Lord himself presiding in our midst. Priests (elders) in Albs: Rev 4:4 the elders sat, dressed in white garments….. Bishop’s Miter, priest biretta – Rev 4:4, 10 With golden crowns on their heads……they cast down their crowns before the throne…. In the Liturgy the Bishop may only wear his miter at prescribed times. But when he goes to the altar he must cast aside his miter. The priest who wears the biretta in the Old Mass is instructed to tip his biretta at the mention of the the Holy Name and to lay it aside entirely when he goes to the altar. Focus on a scroll (Book) The Liturgy of the Word: Rev 5: 1 And I saw in the right hand of him who was seated on the throne a scroll written within and on the back, sealed with seven seals; and I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the scroll and break its seals?” And no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll or to look into it, and I wept much that no one was found worthy to open the scroll or to look into it. Then one of the elders said to me, “Weep not; lo, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has conquered, so that he can open the scroll and its seven seals.” In the ancient world books, as we know them now, had not been invented. Texts were written on long scrolls and rolled up. Meet singles at DateHookup.dating, we're 100% free! Join now!
3/13/2014 3:43:21 PM	The book of Revelation as "liturgy".
mindya Vancouver, BC 63, joined Jan. 2009	Incense, Intercessory prayer: Rev 8:3 another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God….. Rev 5:7 and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints; Hymns: Rev 5:8 – And they sang a new hymn: Worthy are you O Lord to receive the scroll and break open its seals. For you were slain and with your blood you purchase for God men of every race and tongue, and those of every nation. Rev 14:1 Then I looked, and lo, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads… and they sing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who had been redeemed from the earth. Rev 15:3 And they (the multitude no one could count) sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, “Great and wonderful are thy deeds, O Lord God the Almighty! Just and true are thy ways, O King of the ages! Who shall not fear and glorify thy name, O Lord? For thou alone art holy. All nations shall come and worship thee, for thy judgments have been revealed.” Holy Holy Holy Rev 4:8 and day and night they never cease to sing, “Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God Almighty, Prostration (Kneeling): Rev 4:10 the twenty-four elders fall down before him who is seated on the throne and worship him who lives for ever and ever; they cast their crowns before the throne. … Rev 5:14 and the elders fell down and worshiped - In today’s setting there is seldom room for everyone to lie, prostrate and flat on the ground. Hence, kneeling developed as a practical solution to the lack of space but amounts to the same demenor of humble adoration. Lamb of God: Rev 5:6 And between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders, I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, Acclamations: Rev 5:11 Then I looked, and I heard around the throne and the living creatures and the elders the voice of many angels, numbering myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing!” Amen! Rev 5:14 And the four living creatures said, “Amen!”. Silence Rev 8:1 When the Lamb opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. (and you thought your priest paused too long after communion?) Mary: Rev 12:1 And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; 2she was with child and she cried out in her pangs of birth, in anguish for delivery. Happy are those called to his “supper”: Revelation 19: 6Then I heard what seemed to be the voice of a great multitude, like the sound of many waters and like the sound of mighty thunderpeals, crying, “Hallelujah! For the Lord our God the Almighty reigns. Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready;… And the angel said£ to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.” Golden Vessels, vestments: Rev 1:12 – And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, Rev 1:13 – and among the lampstands was someone “like a son of man,” dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest Rev 5:8 – the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense Rev 8:3 – Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all the saints, at the golden altar before the throne. Rev 15:16 – The angels were dressed in clean, shining linen and wore golden sashes around their chests. Rev 15:17 seven golden bowls Stained Glass: Rev 21:10 [The heavenly city] had a great, high wall, with twelve gates,… The foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with every jewel; the first was jasper, the second sapphire, the third agate, the fourth emerald, 20the fifth onyx, the sixth carnelian, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, the twelfth amethyst. (The image of stained glass in our Church walls is hinted at here). Source: http://blog.adw.org/2010/09/the-biblical-and-heavenly-roots-of-the-sacred-liturgy/
3/13/2014 5:04:32 PM	The book of Revelation as "liturgy".
visitingfriends Evansville, WI 76, joined Jan. 2011	Thanks Mac for your interesting post.
3/13/2014 5:38:47 PM	The book of Revelation as "liturgy".
visitingfriends Evansville, WI 76, joined Jan. 2011	I highly recommend the following book for those who want to go in depth in trying to understand the Catholic mass. It is wrote by Scott Hahn a former Presbyterian minister who converted to the Catholic faith. The Lamb's Supper: The Mass as Heaven on Earth by Scott Hahn, Benedict J. Groeschel (Foreword by) The Lamb's Supper reveals a long-lost secret of the Church: the early Christian's key to understanding the mysteries of the Mass was the New Testament's Book of Revelation. With its bizarre imagery, its mystic visions of Heaven, and its end-of-time prophecies, Revelation mirrors the sacrifice and celebration of the Eucharist. Beautifully written in clear, direct language, this new book by bestselling Catholic author Scott Hahn will help readers see the Mass with new eyes, pray the liturgy with a renewed heart, and enter into the Mass more fully, enthusiastically, intelligently, and powerfully than ever before. Dr. Scott Hahn is currently Professor of Theology and Scripture at Franciscan University of Steubenville, Ohio. He is also the founder and Director of the Institute of Applied Biblical Studies, and serves as President for the Missionaries of Faith Foundation. He is married to Kimberly. They have six children.
3/13/2014 5:52:49 PM	The book of Revelation as "liturgy".
visitingfriends Evansville, WI 76, joined Jan. 2011	Has any Protestant considered that the Book of Revelation, along with proclaiming the end times events, is also speaking about the Catholic Mass? Quote: The Book of Revelation and the Holy Mass The Book of Revelation shows us glimpses of the heavenly liturgy – Jesus Christ’s once and for all sacrifice eternally present in heaven. This is why the Church has always incorporated the elements that John saw in the heavenly liturgy into her earthly liturgy, for they are one and the same liturgical action of Jesus Christ our High Priest. Rev. 1:6, 20:6 - heaven's identification of the priesthood of the faithful is the same as the Church's identification on earth. Rev. 1:12, 2:5 - there are lampstands or Menorahs in heaven. These have always been used in the Holy Mass of the Church on earth. Rev. 2:17 - there is manna in heaven given to the faithful. This is the same as the Eucharistic manna given to the faithful at the Holy Mass on earth. Rev. 4:8 - heaven's liturgical chant "Holy, Holy, Holy" is the same that is used in the liturgy of the Holy Mass on earth. Rev. 5:8, 6:9-11, 8:3-4 - heaven's emphasis on the intercession of the saints is the same as the Holy Mass on earth. Rev. 5:8, 8:3-4 - there is incense in heaven which has always been part of the liturgy of the Holy Mass on earth. Rev. 6:9 - the martyrs who are seen under the heavenly altar is similar to the Church's tradition of keeping relics of saints under the earthly altars. Rev. 4:4, 5:14; 11:16, 14:3, 19:4 - there are priests ("presbyteroi") in heaven. Priests offer sacrifice. Our earthly priests participate with the heavenly priests in offering Jesus' eternal sacrifice in the Holy Mass on earth. Rev. 8:1 - the silent contemplation in heaven is similar to our silent contemplation at the Holy Mass on earth. Rev. 8:3, 11:1, 14:18, 16:7 - there is an altar in heaven. But no altar is needed unless a sacrifice is being offered in heaven. This is the same sacrifice that is offered on the altars used in the Holy Masses on earth. Rev. 12:1-6, 13-17 - heaven's emphasis on the Blessed Virgin Mary is the same as the Holy Mass on earth. Rev. 14:4 - there are consecrated celibates in heaven, as there are with our Catholic priests and religious on earth. Rev. 15:7, 16:1-4,8,10,12,17; 21:9 - there are chalices (or bowls) in the heavenly liturgy. This is like the chalices used to offer Christ's sacrifice in the Holy Mass on earth. Rev. 15:5 - there is a tent or tabernacle in heaven. Tabernacles are used to store the Eucharist at the Holy Mass on earth. Rev.19:9 - the consummation of the Lamb at heaven's marriage supper is the same as the Lamb's supper in the Holy Mass on earth. Rev. 7:9; 14:6 - the catholicity or universality of heaven as God's family is the essence of the Catholic faith on earth. http://www.scripturecatholic.com/the...#eucharist-IIf
3/13/2014 6:22:53 PM	The book of Revelation as "liturgy".
isna_la_wica Brantford, ON 62, joined Mar. 2012	Has any Protestant considered that the Book of Revelation, along with proclaiming the end times events, is also speaking about the Catholic Mass? No I have not. Not sure I see it either, but am curious being the heretic that I am. I noticed that chapter 2 verse 17 is mentioned by you. "17 He who is having an ear -- let him hear what the Spirit saith to the assemblies: To him who is overcoming, I will give to him to eat from the hidden manna, and will give to him a white stone, and upon the stone a new name written, that no one knew except him who is receiving [it]. " Is the hidden manna then, the bread at communion? The white stone, the Pope? Curious which of the churches mentioned, in chapter 2, do you think is the Roman catholic one? Revelation 2 Young's Literal Translation (YLT) 2 `To the messenger of the Ephesian assembly write: These things saith he who is holding the seven stars in his right hand, who is walking in the midst of the seven lamp-stands -- the golden: 2 I have known thy works, and thy labour, and thy endurance, and that thou art not able to bear evil ones, and that thou hast tried those saying themselves to be apostles and are not, and hast found them liars, 3 and thou didst bear, and hast endurance, and because of my name hast toiled, and hast not been weary. 4 `But I have against thee: That thy first love thou didst leave! 5 remember, then, whence thou hast fallen, and reform, and the first works do; and if not, I come to thee quickly, and will remove thy lamp-stand from its place -- if thou mayest not reform; 6 but this thou hast, that thou dost hate the works of the Nicolaitans, that I also hate. 7 He who is having an ear -- let him hear what the Spirit saith to the assemblies: To him who is overcoming -- I will give to him to eat of the tree of life that is in the midst of the paradise of God. 8 `And to the messenger of the assembly of the Smyrneans write: These things saith the First and the Last, who did become dead and did live; 9 I have known thy works, and tribulation, and poverty -- yet thou art rich -- and the evil-speaking of those saying themselves to be Jews, and are not, but [are] a synagogue of the Adversary. 10 `Be not afraid of the things that thou art about to suffer; lo, the devil is about to cast of you to prison, that ye may be tried, and ye shall have tribulation ten days; become thou faithful unto death, and I will give to thee the crown of the life. 11 He who is having an ear -- let him hear what the Spirit saith to the assemblies: He who is overcoming may not be injured of the second death. 12 `And to the messenger of the assembly in Pergamos write: These things saith he who is having the sharp two-edged sword: 13 I have known thy works, and where thou dost dwell -- where the throne of the Adversary [is] -- and thou dost hold fast my name, and thou didst not deny my faith, even in the days in which Antipas [was] my faithful witness, who was put to death beside you, where the Adversary doth dwell. 14 `But I have against thee a few things: That thou hast there those holding the teaching of Balaam, who did teach Balak to cast a stumbling-block before the sons of Israel, to eat idol-sacrifices, and to commit whredom; 15 so hast thou, even thou, those holding the teaching of the Nicolaitans -- which thing I hate. 16 `Reform! and if not, I come to thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth. 17 He who is having an ear -- let him hear what the Spirit saith to the assemblies: To him who is overcoming, I will give to him to eat from the hidden manna, and will give to him a white stone, and upon the stone a new name written, that no one knew except him who is receiving [it]. 18 `And to the messenger of the assembly of Thyatira write: These things saith the Son of God, who is having his eyes as a flame of fire, and his feet like to fine brass; 19 I have known thy works, and love, and ministration, and faith, and thy endurance, and thy works -- and the last [are] more than the first. 20 `But I have against thee a few things: That thou dost suffer the woman Jezebel, who is calling herself a prophetess, to teach, and to lead astray, my servants to commit whredom, and idol-sacrifices to eat; 21 and I did give to her a time that she might reform from her wh*redom, and she did not reform; 22 lo, I will cast her into a couch, and those committing adultery with her into great tribulation -- if they may not repent of their works, 23 and her children I will kill in death, and know shall all the assemblies that I am he who is searching reins and hearts; and I will give to you -- to each -- according to your works. 24 `And to you I say, and to the rest who are in Thyatira, as many as have not this teaching, and who did not know the depths of the Adversary, as they say; I will not put upon you other burden; 25 but that which ye have -- hold ye, till I may come; 26 and he who is overcoming, and who is keeping unto the end my works, I will give to him authority over the nations, 27 and he shall rule them with a rod of iron -- as the vessels of the potter they shall be broken -- as I also have received from my Father; 28 and I will give to him the morning star. 29 He who is having an ear -- let him hear what the Spirit saith to the assemblies.
3/13/2014 6:59:37 PM	The book of Revelation as "liturgy".
deneez Rochester, MI 57, joined Apr. 2012	That is a wealth of information there. I'll add some interesting things later. Glad you started the thread. Curious which of the churches mentioned, in chapter 2, do you think is the Roman catholic one? All of the 7 'churches' in Asia Minor at that time were 'Universally' of the same faith. No one argues that. And, they were all within the 'Roman' Empire. Which one do you think was Roman Catholic?
3/13/2014 7:03:26 PM	The book of Revelation as "liturgy".
visitingfriends Evansville, WI 76, joined Jan. 2011	This white stone is absolution from the guilt of sin, alluding to the ancient custom of giving a white stone to those acquitted on trial and a black stone to those condemned.
3/13/2014 7:22:06 PM	The book of Revelation as "liturgy".
isna_la_wica Brantford, ON 62, joined Mar. 2012	Quote from visitingfriends: This white stone is absolution from the guilt of sin, alluding to the ancient custom of giving a white stone to those acquitted on trial and a black stone to those condemned. Never heard of that. Guess I have some reading to do. Kinda reminds me of Urim and Thummim, in the O/T. So do these stones represent something specific in regards to a Mass? And the name written upon the stone?
3/13/2014 7:36:04 PM	The book of Revelation as "liturgy".
isna_la_wica Brantford, ON 62, joined Mar. 2012	All of the 7 'churches' in Asia Minor at that time were 'Universally' of the same faith. No one argues that. I was not arguing that, Danny asked if any had contemplated it being a reference to his Churchs Mass. So I was curious, that is all. And, they were all within the 'Roman' Empire. No they were not. St Thomas started the church in Kerala India in 52. Will have to double check, but some others did not belong as well. Which one do you think was Roman Catholic? None were "Roman " at that time. Even if one takes the later date of the authorship of Rev. as being 95 AD, Rome was still Pagan. Actually, Roman did not even get put in front of Catholic till the early 1700`s, and then only in English. As far as I have read, they never used the term "Roman" even in Vatican 2. It was a valid question though. Since many of your faith do make claims you are the original church and not others that belonged at the time. I am glad you know the difference.
3/13/2014 7:46:26 PM	The book of Revelation as "liturgy".
deneez Rochester, MI 57, joined Apr. 2012	I didn't say you were arguing the fact that they were all of the same faith, I was making a point in case which follows the obvious. If they were Universal (I'll avoid the word Catholic purposefully, even though that is what it means)...and the 7 churches of Asia Minor in the Book of Revelation were all within the Roman Empire, at that time in history, (only speaking of those specific churches) my question followed, who do you say was the 'Roman' Catholic church?
3/13/2014 7:48:35 PM	The book of Revelation as "liturgy".
deneez Rochester, MI 57, joined Apr. 2012	Curious which of the churches mentioned, in chapter 2, do you think is the Roman catholic one? isna so, now I asked you?
3/13/2014 7:58:56 PM	The book of Revelation as "liturgy".
deneez Rochester, MI 57, joined Apr. 2012	None were "Roman" at that time All 7 churches were located within the pagan Roman empire. Roman speaks to it's 'origination'. Even St. Paul had "Roman" citizenship. So do you believe they were there? OK thanks, I'll look later.
3/13/2014 8:18:19 PM	The book of Revelation as "liturgy".
isna_la_wica Brantford, ON 62, joined Mar. 2012	I am quite aware that catholic means Universal. How ever Catholic with a capital C has taken new meanings. I didn't say you were arguing the fact that they were all of the same faith, I was making a point in case which follows the obvious. If they were Universal (I'll avoid the word Catholic purposefully, even though that is what it means)...and the 7 churches of Asia Minor in the Book of Revelation were all within the Roman Empire, at that time in history, (only speaking of those specific churches) my question followed, who do you say was the 'Roman' Catholic church? Just my opinion and not what scholars say? I think there was a difference in theology, that made the western branch stand out as being some what separate , when Jerome translated the Latin Bible in the latter half of the 4th century. Then when "Filoque " entered the western part of the church in the 6th century, the divide really started getting wider and wider. For all intents and purposes? Especially with the question of that Papacy? The great schism of 1054 was simply the tip of the mountain dividing the western side from the middle East and Eastern side of the church. I think, these two things, kinda drove the two sides in having different "visons" of what the church should be. So one evolved into a more physical style, and the other in a more spiritual or even mystical way. That is just my opinion, the way I see it as an outsider looking in.
3/13/2014 8:32:54 PM	The book of Revelation as "liturgy".
isna_la_wica Brantford, ON 62, joined Mar. 2012	Ephesus: Greece. Smyrna: Turkey Pergamum: Greece Thyatira; Turkey Sardis : Turkey Philadelphia : Turkey Laodicea.":Syria I think. None were what we today as the "Roman catholic church", or any other. JMO.
3/13/2014 9:33:37 PM	The book of Revelation as "liturgy".
isna_la_wica Brantford, ON 62, joined Mar. 2012	Seems that some Protestants and Anglicans do agree with you Danny. Interesting. 6, Among interesting – I would say captivating – modern interpretations is the Paschal Liturgical view, found among Catholic and Protestant theologians who see the liturgical worship, particularly the Easter rites, of early Christianity as the background and the context for understanding this book. This view from an Anglican perspective is most cogently expressed by Massey H. Shepherd, an Episcopal scholar, in The Paschal Liturgy and the Apocalypse (2004). Massey Shepherd was Professor of Liturgics at the Church Divinity School of the Pacific, Berkeley, California, and Director of the Graduate School of Theology at the University of the South Sewanee, Tennessee. A leading liturgical scholar and church historian in the Episcopal Church (TEC), his best known work in this field is The Paschal Liturgy and the Apocalypse (London: Lutterworth Press, 1960; reprint James C Clarke, 2004), in which he relates the development of the Paschal rites of the ancient Church, from apostolic times to the end of the age of persecution, as the background and context for understanding the outline and basic theme of Revelation. In this book, Massey Shepherd offers a new approach to the basic structure of the Book of Revelation. He surveys the development of Paschal rites and customs of the ancient Church, from apostolic times to the end of the age of persecution, as a background and context for understanding the outline and basic theme of Revelation. He opens fresh perspectives to he New Testament and early Christian literature, the liturgy and piety of the primitive Church, and the origins of the Christian Year. From a Roman Catholic perspective, this argument is made by Scott Hahn, a former Lutheran theologian, in his The Lamb’s Supper: The Mass as Heaven on Earth, where he argues that Revelation, in form, is structured after creation, fall, judgment and redemption. Those who hold this view say that the Temple’s destruction in AD 70 had a profound effect on the Jewish people, not only in Jerusalem but among the Greek-speaking Jews of the Mediterranean. They believe Revelation provides insight into the early Eucharist, and that it is the new Temple worship in the New Heaven and New Earth. The idea of the Eucharist as a foretaste of the heavenly banquet is also explored by the English Methodist, Geoffrey Wainwright, in Eucharist and Eschatology (Oxford: OUP, 1980).Patrick Comerford: The Book of Revelation (1): an Introduction www.patrickcomerford.com/.../book-of-revelation-1-introduction.html?
3/13/2014 9:37:58 PM	The book of Revelation as "liturgy".
casheyesblond Belmont, NC 52, joined Feb. 2009	Quote from isna_la_wica: Ephesus: Greece. Smyrna: Turkey Pergamum: Greece Thyatira; Turkey Sardis : Turkey Philadelphia : Turkey Laodicea.":Syria I think. None were what we today as the "Roman catholic church", or any other. JMO. from wikianswers.com There are a great deal more than seven Christian churches mentioned in the Bible. The term 'church' of course means a group of Christians and not a 'church building', as these had not yet come about, Christians meeting in each others' homes or in secret for fear of persecution. The seven churches that are mentioned in Revelation are: 1. the church at Ephesus 2. The church in Smyra 3.The church in Pergamum (Pergamos) 4. The church in Thyatria 5.The church in Sardis 6. The church in Philadelphia 7, the church in Laodicea However, there were many more churches set up across the Mediterranean area in addition to these. Paul wrote letters to the same church in Ephesus as mentioned in Revelation, but also to churches in Rome, Corinth, Galatia, Philippi, Colossiand Thessalonika. We also know that there were probably several churches set up in Israel, Galilee and Judea, including Jerusalem.
3/13/2014 9:40:23 PM	The book of Revelation as "liturgy".
mindya Vancouver, BC 63, joined Jan. 2009	Quote from isna_la_wica: From a Roman Catholic perspective, this argument is made by Scott Hahn, a former Lutheran theologian, in his The Lamb’s Supper: The Mass as Heaven on Earth, where he argues that Revelation, in form, is structured after creation, fall, judgment and redemption. I think the Lutheran church was very "catholic" in its liturgy, they are an "offshoot" of the RC church. [Edited 3/13/2014 9:43:53 PM ]
3/13/2014 9:40:52 PM	The book of Revelation as "liturgy".
deneez Rochester, MI 57, joined Apr. 2012	I think, these two things, kinda drove the two sides in having different "visons" of what the church should be. So one evolved into a more physical style, and the other in a more spiritual or even mystical way. That is just my opinion, the way I see it as an outsider looking in. Thanks isna. Now I can't sleep. OK, been thinking about it. First off, this is almost verbatim out of information regarding the differences between the East and West. So good. You have been doing your homework. I need to clarify a point about geography. There is reason why the Lord in His divine providence wanted Peter and Paul to go Rome, in order for the message to spread. Thomas went to India. Look, Christianity isn't doing too well in India. So, obviously Rome was a hot spot and Christianity spread like wildfire. In the year 451 at the council of Chaledon, from your Eastern Orthodox Bishops of today, their predecessors had no problem that Peter had spoken through Leo, and Leo was the Bishop of Rome. At the end of day you must determine where Peter is, most especially in the first century. As in the centuries before back to Clement of the first Century the Bishops of Rome exercised their prerogatives over other churches. And though the decisions may have been challenged....the authority to make the decision was not. Orthodox believe in Apostolic succession. If someone refers to Catholicism as Roman, they are referring to it as the seat of Rome, and the chair of Peter. And, it was through the seat of Rome, Apostolic succession, that Christianity spread. The churches we were discussing were strictly....Catholic.
3/13/2014 9:46:44 PM	The book of Revelation as "liturgy".
deneez Rochester, MI 57, joined Apr. 2012	This is where the Catholic and Orthodox work together isna.
3/13/2014 9:54:29 PM	The book of Revelation as "liturgy".
deneez Rochester, MI 57, joined Apr. 2012	on topic, The Mass and the Book of Revelation (Scott Hahn) Danny's reference. Has Christ's sacrifice ended all sacrifices? No. Christ's sacrifice has ended all ineffective, bloody animal sacrifices that never did anything anyway. Now for the first time in history we can really begin to offer sacrifice to God. Romans 12 says, "Offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God." And it wouldn't be holy and acceptable except that it's united to Christ's perpetual sacrifice. He's not bleeding. He's not dying. He's not suffering, but he is offering a sacrifice as a lamb does, as a priest king does continually, forever. And that's what it's all about. John wouldn't see a lamb looking as though it had been slain if the whole kit and caboodle was completed and done. Yes, it's completed and done, but it's still going on, and it's going to go on forever in the future. Why? Because Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever, as Hebrews tells us. Now, is this strange? Is this teaching novel? Well, let's take a look at 1st Corinthians and see how natural it seems to the apostle Paul. We have already looked at 1st Corinthians 5, "Christ, our Passover," that's in verse 7, "Christ, our Paschal Lamb has been sacrificed. Let us therefore celebrate the festival not with the old leaven, the leaven of malice and evil, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth." What's he talking about? Is he talking about leaven being like sin. No. He's saying let us celebrate the feast with unleavened bread. What feast? The Eucharist! The sacrifice continues because communion must be celebrated. We've got to eat the lamb, the resurrected, glorified, enthroned lamb that still looks as though he'd been slain because he's still giving himself to us.
3/13/2014 10:21:37 PM	The book of Revelation as "liturgy".
casheyesblond Belmont, NC 52, joined Feb. 2009	Quote from deneez: If someone refers to Catholicism as Roman, they are referring to it as the seat of Rome, and the chair of Peter. was researching this more...the term "Roman Catholic Church" is found nowhere in Catechism of the Catholic Church. And at the first ecumenical council of the Church, held at Nicaea in Asia Minor in the year 325, the bishops called the church "the Catholic Church" twice in the council's official documents, but more frequently called it "the Catholic and Apostolic Church" and even more frequently "the Church". And nowhere in the 16 documents of the Second Vatican Council will you find the term Roman Catholic. just thought that was interesting
3/13/2014 11:07:47 PM	The book of Revelation as "liturgy".
mindya Vancouver, BC 63, joined Jan. 2009	Here's a few of my thoughts on mixing the "smells and bell" of the book of revelation with the Lord's supper: Firstly the book is focused on the destruction of the whor.e and the wedding supper: (Rev 19:9 KJV) And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. Now we know that the Lord's supper was being celebrated well prior to the destruction of the whor.e (1 Cor 11:20 KJV) When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper. We are not specifically given any references to any liturgy that is used in the letters that resemble anything that happens in the RC, Orthodox or Lutheran churches. We have only what is written in the gospels: (Mark 14:22 KJV) And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body. (Mark 14:23 KJV) And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them: and they all drank of it. (Mark 14:24 KJV) And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many. (Mark 14:25 KJV) Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God. There is no mention of the "smells and bell" here.
3/14/2014 4:04:02 AM	The book of Revelation as "liturgy".
isna_la_wica Brantford, ON 62, joined Mar. 2012	Thomas went to India. Look, Christianity isn't doing too well in India. So, obviously Rome was a hot spot and Christianity spread like wildfire. Are you kidding me? The Church in India has existed since 52 AD. Under constant persecution. Just a couple years ago they again faced huge attacks.I think the church in Kerala is a real testimony to the world. I know many American Fundementals claim they have persecution what with Walmart selling Christmas trees as being holiday trees. But they in India have with stood the real test of time which has been constant persecution and even death ,of the real variety. Now as for the RC church, and how universal they really are? Wikipedia talk:Requests for mediation/Roman Catholic Church/Alternatives From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia < Wikipedia talk:Requests for mediation? \| Roman Catholic Church Proposed alternatives Proposed text Support Oppose Oppose reasons "Officially known as the Catholic Church" Xandar, NancyHeise, Marauder40, SynKobiety Soidi, Gimmetrow, Defteri, Afterwriting Implies that other churches and Chrisitans are not part of the "universal" Christian church. Implies that there is a single "official name" for the church. The RCC (in official usage, the Catholic Church)... Xandar Richardshusr Marauder40 Defteri, SynKobiety, Afterwriting Supported by Xandar only with dashes, not brackets. Implies that only one name is officially used (Defteri) Implies that RCC in normal in non-official usage (SynKobiety) The RCC, also known as the Catholic Church,... Richardshusr Marauder40, SynKobiety Implies that "Roman Catholic Church" is the real name and "Catholic Church" is an abbreviation, alias or nickname Roman Catholic Church, which titles itself "Catholic Church"(note 1)". NancyHeise Xandar, Marauder40, SynKobiety Implies that this is a false or presumptuous claim. Implies that RCC is proper and more common. "which usually calls itself the Catholic Church" "refers to itself as" Defteri, Richardshusr, Soidi, Secisek, Kraftlos Xandar, Marauder40, SynKobiety Implies that this is a false or presumptuous claim. Implies that RCC is proper and more common. The Catholic Church, sometimes called the Roman Catholic Church,... SynKobiety Implies that other churches and Chrisitans are not part of the "universal" Christian church. "prefers to be called" Defteri, Richardshusr, Soidi, Secisek, Kraftlos Marauder40, Xandar, SynKobiety, Afterwriting Doesn't specify that this is the "proper" name. Implies that RCC is more common and proper. "strongly prefers to use" Richardshusr Marauder40, Xandar, SynKobiety Doesn't specify that this is the "proper" name. Implies that RCC is more common and proper. The Roman Catholic Church, which in its official documents usually calls itself the Catholic Church Defteri, Richardshusr, Soidi, Afterwriting Marauder40, Xandar, SynKobiety Implies that this is a false or presumptuous claim. Implies that RCC is more common and that CC is only used in official contexts. "The Roman Catholic Church, which in its official documents calls itself the 'Catholic Church'" NancyHeise Marauder40, Xandar, SynKobiety Implies that this is a false or presumptuous claim. Implies that RCC is more common and that CC is only used in official contexts. The Roman Catholic Church - in normal official usage, the Catholic Church Xandar Defteri, SynKobiety What is "normal" and what is "abnormal"? Implies that RCC is more common and that CC is only used in official contexts. Implies that other churches and Chrisitans are not part of the "universal" Christian church. The Roman Catholic Church, more usually called, both informally and in the Church's official usage, the Catholic Church Soidi, Defteri, Afterwriting Xandar, SynKobiety Long-winded and unencyclopedic. Implies that RCC is more proper in secular contexts. The Catholic Church (Roman Catholic) jbmurray Defteri, SynKobiety Does not conform with WP:LEAD regarding the article name appearing in the first sentence The (Roman) Catholic Church jbmurray SynKobiety Ugly The Catholic Church, also known as the Roman Catholic Church,... Gimmetrow, Xandar, Richardshusr, Marauder40 jbmurray, SynKobiety, NancyHeise, Majoreditor Kraftlos Mike Defteri, Soidi Implies that other churches and Chrisitans are not part of the "universal" Christian church. Is not in strict conformance with WP:LEAD regarding the article name appearing "as early as possible" in the first sentence but comes pretty close. Xandar only supports this providing article name reverts to "Catholic Church". As R, M and SK said above, "also known as" implies that the second name is an alias or nickname. WP:LEAD allows for common sense variations, it states " it should be followed except where common sense warrants an exception." Wikipedia talk:Requests for mediation/Roman Catholic Church ... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk...for...Catholic.../Alternatives? [Edited 3/14/2014 4:05:28 AM ]
3/14/2014 4:11:39 AM	The book of Revelation as "liturgy".
deneez Rochester, MI 57, joined Apr. 2012	Quote from casheyesblond: was researching this more...the term "Roman Catholic Church" is found nowhere in Catechism of the Catholic Church. And at the first ecumenical council of the Church, held at Nicaea in Asia Minor in the year 325, the bishops called the church "the Catholic Church" twice in the council's official documents, but more frequently called it "the Catholic and Apostolic Church" and even more frequently "the Church". And nowhere in the 16 documents of the Second Vatican Council will you find the term Roman Catholic. just thought that was interesting good research because it's accurate, completing it would be when the adjective Roman is applied to the Church herself, it refers to the Diocese of Rome! I too had to do some research, and what I found amongst the early Church even later than Nicea in the "Acts of the Extracts" of the Council of Chalcedon in 451 ad...remember the church was still considered 'one'...the words "Peter has spoken thus through Leo," and "who is the rock and foundation of the Catholic Church." It also says that Leo is the "Archbishop of all the churches," and the "ruler of the whole church." The Seventh Ecumenical Council says the Pope is "in the place and in the see of the holy and superlaudable Apostle Peter." Now, I did not really expect all of this, but from this I based a logical post to isna in regards to his question of 'who' those churches were. They were One, Holy, Apostolic and definitely, Catholic. Anyways, when I think of Rome I think specifically of Peter and Paul, the center of the action. I 'personally' don't mind RC.
3/14/2014 4:17:09 AM	The book of Revelation as "liturgy".
deneez Rochester, MI 57, joined Apr. 2012	There is no mention of the "smells and bell" here. It is foolish for me to argue this because you haven't been to a Mass to my knowledge anyways. I could describe it, but I would suggest, the smell, sound, and sight of the real thing, 'with' the knowledge you have is superior to anything I can offer. With what you know you would correlate it easily!
3/14/2014 4:37:45 AM	The book of Revelation as "liturgy".
deneez Rochester, MI 57, joined Apr. 2012	@ mindya, Great attempt at what could have been a topic I've learned to love. I won't be participating in the thread further. Danny love's this topic as well, it is an awesome correlation and I suppose if anyone is 'really' interested they too could reference what he posted. I had a strong admiration, respect, and appreciation primarily for the Russian Orthodox Faith, and as of late I feel it tarnish. My psyche' is actually disturbed, weird, ya, that is me...but I'm getting the feeling of being very uncomfortable arguing against my brothers that I enjoyed so much, it just wasn't something we did. Arguing with a non-practicing person who claims to love orthodoxy isn't even close to discussing and or discovering the similarities or differences with a practicing Orthodox, especially one that knows their faith. Not even close. It's not an experience I want. To keep the memory for me alive, I say ciao'
3/14/2014 11:03:15 AM	The book of Revelation as "liturgy".
mindya Vancouver, BC 63, joined Jan. 2009	Churches in India: Advent Christian Conference Amazing Grace Ministries Anglican Church of India Apatani Christian Fellowship Apostolic Christian Assembly Apostolic Church of Pentecost Apostolic Fellowship Tabernacle Apostolic Pentecostal Church Apostolic Trinity Ministries Asia Evangelistic Fellowship Assam Baptist Convention Assemblies of Christ Church Assemblies of God Assemblies of Jesus Christ Assembly Hall Churches Association of Vineyard Churches Assyrian Church of the East Baptist Christian Association Baptist Church of Mizoram Baptist Union of North India Believers' Churches in India Bengal Baptist Fellowship Bengal-Orissa-Bihar Baptist Convention Bethel Pentecostal Church Bharatiya Jukta Christa Prachar Mandali Bible Brethren Fellowship Bible Christian Mission Bible Pattern Church Bible Presbyterian Church Bihar Mennonite Mandli Blessing Youth Mission Brethren in Christ Church in India Cachar Hill Tribes Synod Carmel Gospel Missions Catholic Church Roman Catholic Church (Latin rite) Syro-Malabar Catholic Church Syro-Malankara Catholic Church Chaldean Syrian Church Christ Groups Christadelphians Christian Fellowship Centre Church of God (Anderson) Church of God (Full Gospel) in India Church of God of Prophecy Church of God (Seventh Day) Church of North India Church of South India Church of the Apostolic Faith Church of the Nazarene Churches of Christ Churches of Christ in Western India Churches of Christ (Instrumental) Churches of Christ (Non-Instrumental) Council of Baptist Churches in Northern India Deliverance City Church Diocese of Cosmopolis Disciples of Christ Dohnavur Fellowship Elephant faith soul winners Elim Church El Shaddai Eternal Light Ministries Eternal Life International Ministries Evangelical Alliance of Churches Evangelical Church of Maraland Evangelical Congregational Church Evangelical Free Church of India Evangelical Missionary Society in Mayurbhanj Evangelical Presbyterian Church of Sikkim Fellowship of Evangelical Friends Fellowship of Gospel Churches Fellowship of Indigenous Gospel Churches Filadelfia Fellowship Free Methodist Church of India Friends Missionary Prayer Band Garo Baptist Convention Gospel Association of India Gospel Echoing Missionary Society Gospel Outreach Ministries Gypsy Evangelical Movement Greek Orthodox Church Hebron Missionary Fellowship Himalaya Evangelical Mission Himalayan Free Church Hindustani Covenant Church Higland churches of India House of Prayer Fellowship Independent Assemblies of God, International Independent Churches of India India Association of General Baptists India for Christ Ministries India United Evangelical Mission India Evangelistic Mission Indian Brethren Indian National Church Indian National Full Gospel Churches Federation of India Indian Pentecostal Church of God International Christian Fellowship International Church of the Foursquare Gospel Jesus Name Pentecostal Church Karbi-Anglong Baptist Convention Karnataka Baptist Convention Kashmir Evangelical Fellowship Kuki Christian Church Local Churches of India London Mission Church Lord Jesus Christ Tabernacle Madras Pentecostal Assembly Mission Manipur Baptist Convention Malankara Mar Thoma Syrian Church Mara Independent Evangelical Church Maranatha Full Gospel Churches Mennonite Church in India Methodist Church in India Metropolitan Church Association Mission Society of Mar Gregorios of India Moravian Church Nagaland Baptist Church Council Christian Revival Church National Missionary Society of India Native Missionary Movement Navajeeva Ashram New Life Churches New Life Fellowship Association New Life Outreach New Testament Church of India North Bank Baptist Christian Association North India Tribal Mission Open Bible Church of God Orissa Missionary Movement Orthodox Church (Oriental Orthodoxy) Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church Jacobite Syrian Orthodox Church Malabar Independent Syrian Church Pentecostal Free Will Baptist Church Pentecostal Holiness Church Presbyterian Church of India Prince of Peace Church Rabha Baptist Church Union Reaching Indians Ministries Rajasthan Bible Institute Reformed Episcopal Church Reformed Presbyterian Church of India Reformed Presbyterian Church of North East India St Thomas Evangelical Church of India Samavesam of Telugu Baptist Churches Separate Baptists in Christ Seventh Day Baptist Church Seventh-day Adventist Church South India Reformed Churches Tamil Baptist Churches Tamil Christian Fellowship Telugu Baptist Church The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints The Salvation Army The Pentecostal Mission Tribal Gospel Mission Tripura Baptist Christian Union Undenominational Church of the Lord in India United Basel Mission Church United Evangelical Lutheran Church in India United Missionary Church of India United Pentecostal Church in India United Church of North India (UCNI) Wesleyan Church of India Zeme Baptist Church Council Lambsaved Ministries -------------------------------------------- Christianity was India's third-largest religion according to the census of 2001, with approximately 24 million followers, constituting 2.3 per cent of India's population. The works of scholars and Eastern Christian writings state that Christianity was introduced to India by Thomas the Apostle, who visited Muziris in Kerala in 52 AD to spread the gospel amongst Kerala's Jewish settlements. Although the origins of Christianity in India remain unclear, there is a general scholarly consensus that Christianity was rooted in India by the 6th century AD, including some communities who used Syriac liturgically, and it is a possibility that the religion's existence there extends to as far back as the 1st century. Christianity was as such established in India even before some nations of Europe had been Christianised. Christians are found all across India and in all walks of life, with major populations in parts of South India, the Konkan Coast, North-East. Indian Christians have contributed significantly to and are well represented in various spheres of national life. They include former and current chief ministers, governors and chief election commissioners. Sources - wiki. When I was in India and Kashmir I visited a number of small none "denominational" groups.
3/14/2014 5:19:35 PM	The book of Revelation as "liturgy".
visitingfriends Evansville, WI 76, joined Jan. 2011	Quote from visitingfriends: This white stone is absolution from the guilt of sin, alluding to the ancient custom of giving a white stone to those acquitted on trial and a black stone to those condemned. D*ck, New name: this is a reference to the Christian’s rebirth in Christ; cf. Rev 3:12; 19:12; Is 62:2; 65:15. As we are grafted into the family of God, becoming the adopted sons and daughters of God, we are given a new name as are those even now who are adopted into a new family and take on a new name.
3/14/2014 6:53:28 PM	The book of Revelation as "liturgy".
isna_la_wica Brantford, ON 62, joined Mar. 2012	Quote from visitingfriends: D*ck, New name: this is a reference to the Christian’s rebirth in Christ; cf. Rev 3:12; 19:12; Is 62:2; 65:15. As we are grafted into the family of God, becoming the adopted sons and daughters of God, we are given a new name as are those even now who are adopted into a new family and take on a new name. Thanks Danny, now I have to look up dennys thread on names. Deneez, why do you say I am arguing with you? First off, I am the last person who would want you to change your faith. I am not at all out to stop Catholics from being, Catholics. In fact, I will say something right now that I have alluded to before, but did not come right out and state . Remember that thread a while ago, it was titled, "Is The catholic Church finished"? Something to that effect. Well it got me thinking real hard, and I have never quit thinking about it and watching what is going on. I said in thread, that I hope not. I hoped the Catholic church would change , so that it could be a driving force to bring about Gods kingdom on earth as it is in heaven. I was rather nostalgic for John Paul at the time, and more than a little sad. But shortly after, in fact a year ago this week, something funny happened. Francis came along. I really think, the main hope for Gods kingdom to come on earth as it is in heaven, lies with in Catholicism. And I include Anglicans and Orthodox in that statement. I have lost faith, that any thing will happen via the Evangelical side which I once was an ardent follower. First off, they have created this mix of Politics in with their "religion". {Sound familiar? It should, that happened once in Catholicism as well. Recall the Avignon Papacy? They even had two Popes for a few years}. Then this fixation with doom and gloom, waiting on a hill top waiting for a physical return of Jesus, to straighten the mess out. The Holy Spirit has no power to them. Oh, they use it as a repalcement for drugs, with what they call "gifts " etc. But to bring about, the kind of world Jesus taught us about? They ignore the power, wait on "hill tops" to quote Frank Shaeffer. If not in a "literal way", then in a figurative one for sure. Just look at the message they give out when disaster strikes. Or how they treat Gays who might be lost and seeking Christ. But this is not so with Catholicism. Holy faith Batman, this bunch thinks that the Holy Spirit has enough power to turn crackers and bread, into Jesus !Like, that totally blows me away! If they were alive when Jesus was here? They would think he could turn water into wine! Oh ya, lots believe that miracle. But who else is there, with the same faith in the power of the Holy Spirit? To turn wine into Jesus? Only, in Catholicism can you find such faith in the Holy Spirit. And like it or not. It is the Holy Spirit, that was left with us, to do what Jesus prayed about. But this is not going to happen the way things are. One side bashes you guys. You guys make statements that gets others who would be willing to work with your side of the body of Christ , backs up. Well reading the writings of the early Church fathers. Reading the catechisms every time an issue comes up? Made me realize, things aint what I thought they were. But this is a two way street. I do not want you, Danny, Danial, 56 or even lud to change.I do not want to convert any of you, to what I am. In fact, I would be very sad if any of you did! But you guys have to learn how to put things in perspective. And you cannot do that , if by saying what we think, is considered an argument. Youu know what? I betcha I can explain about the Anglicans leaving , in way that you would understand. No, I would not change your mind. Do not want you too. But you would understand where some of us are coming from. And that is what is needed , if we are ever going to get all the body of Christ working on what we should be. Now before mindya slaps me hands,for being off topic, whip me harder ya wimp! lol. A thought crossed my mind. What if Revelations is liturgy? One in which the whole body of Christ can participate in? What an awesome concept! Not convinced of it yet. But the Universalist in me, wants to believe it. And I think every thing I have said, would result in it being so, if we did the will of our Lord, and had enough faith in the Holy Spirit. The kind of faith, you have.
3/14/2014 7:00:19 PM	The book of Revelation as "liturgy".
isna_la_wica Brantford, ON 62, joined Mar. 2012	Quote from casheyesblond: was researching this more...the term "Roman Catholic Church" is found nowhere in Catechism of the Catholic Church. And at the first ecumenical council of the Church, held at Nicaea in Asia Minor in the year 325, the bishops called the church "the Catholic Church" twice in the council's official documents, but more frequently called it "the Catholic and Apostolic Church" and even more frequently "the Church". And nowhere in the 16 documents of the Second Vatican Council will you find the term Roman Catholic. just thought that was interesting Yes the term Roman was not used until the 1700`s. And then only in English applications. It was so they could differentiate them selves from anglicans and Orthodox who also used the term Catholic. And you are correct, not one time in Vatican 2 documents is the term Roman used. BTW, catholic means universal, Catholic with a capitol letter designates the Catholic Church.
3/14/2014 7:29:54 PM	The book of Revelation as "liturgy".
mindya Vancouver, BC 63, joined Jan. 2009	Quote from isna_la_wica: Now before mindya slaps me hands,for being off topic, whip me harder ya wimp! lol. Ya always going off topic... Now don't get me wrong I'm not saying the liturgy "stuff" is wrong in itself - overdone in my view and I do not believe just because there are candles, bells and whistles in the book of revelation that it is a "pattern" for the Lord's supper. I don't accept that the early congregations had the means to get so elaborate in their Lord's supper celebrations. In my view the liturgy has developed over many centuries especially after the 3rd century. I also think as Christians we have the authority to worship and develop worship "techniques" - that said to imbue them with a spiritual significance not established in the holy scrip is going above and beyond our authority.
3/15/2014 10:02:57 AM	The book of Revelation as "liturgy".
visitingfriends Evansville, WI 76, joined Jan. 2011	Going back to Rev. chapter 2:17. Our Lord refers to the manna when he calls himself the "true bread from heaven" ( John 6:31-35 ; ). He is also the "hidden manna" ( Revelation 2:17 ; Compare John 6:49 John 6:51 ). Again look at verse Rev. 2:7, where He says, “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches: Him who overcomes I will permit to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of my God. Now let’s go back to Genesis 3:22-23-- God said, “Indeed! The man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil! And now perhaps he will put forth his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever! 23 There-fore the Lord God put him out of the garden of Eden…. So here we see the results of eating from the tree of life is eternal life. In Galatians 3:13 we see the cross referred to as a tree. 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE”— Then we see in John 6:49-51 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.” John 6:54-59 54 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever.” John 12:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit. I believe the results of the grain of wheat is a teaching on Jesus Himself, who becomes the bread of life and bread is a product of wheat. We have seen in these scriptures a correlation in the tree of life which has fruit that gives eternal life, we see the fruit of a grain of wheat that falls and dies is Jesus who is the bread of life the true and living manna, the hidden manna for those who seek Him and seek to recognize Him, as well as the fruit of the tree that gives eternal life. As many who did not recognize Jesus for who he was when He walked this earth, there are those who do not recognize Him today in the “hidden Manna.” It is a gift for those who are searching to recognize Him. Pray for that gift to recognize the fruit of the tree of life, the manna which came down from heaven, and who ever eats of this manna and/or fruit will live forever for it is one and the same. I believe that the person Jesus, who had the power to change water into wine, to rise from the dead, also has the power to change bread and wine into His body and blood, for our spiritual food. To think anything other, I would be limiting the power of God. I had said that I wasn’t going to post during lent but sometimes I get passionate about some things. When I see scriptures that refer to the Eucharist I get excited and just want to share my joy.
3/15/2014 3:41:06 PM	The book of Revelation as "liturgy".
visitingfriends Evansville, WI 76, joined Jan. 2011	Here is another place where Jesus is referred to as fruit. I believe that He is the fruit of the tree of life, the bread from heaven, and who ever eats of this fruit/manna in the true sense has eternal life. Luke 1:41-42 English Standard Version (ESV) 41 And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the baby leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit, 42 and she exclaimed with a loud cry, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the "fruit" of your womb! 1 Corinthians 11:27-29 New International Version (NIV) 27 So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28 Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup. 29 For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves.
3/15/2014 3:45:20 PM	The book of Revelation as "liturgy".
a_nubian Columbus, OH 52, joined Jan. 2011	Quote from visitingfriends: Here is another place where Jesus is referred to as fruit. I believe that He is the fruit of the tree of life, the bread from heaven, and who ever eats of this fruit/manna in the true sense has eternal life. Luke 1:41-42 English Standard Version (ESV) 41 And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the baby leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit, 42 and she exclaimed with a loud cry, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the "fruit" of your womb! 1 Corinthians 11:27-29 New International Version (NIV) 27 So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28 Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup. 29 For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves. I have known of Christ being equated to bread/manna but you do have a good point about Him being fruit.
3/15/2014 4:00:02 PM	The book of Revelation as "liturgy".
mindya Vancouver, BC 63, joined Jan. 2009	"fruit of the womb" is an Hebrewism - I don't think because Luke used the term makes that verse of any real significance: (Gen 30:2 KJV) And Jacob's anger was kindled against Rachel: and he said, Am I in God's stead, who hath withheld from thee the fruit of the womb? (Deu 7:13 KJV) And he will love thee, and bless thee, and multiply thee: he will also bless the fruit of thy womb, and the fruit of thy land, thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep, in the land which he sware unto thy fathers to give thee. (Psa 127:3 KJV) Lo, children are an heritage of the LORD: and the fruit of the womb is his reward. (Isa 13:18 KJV) Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare children. (Hosea 9:16 KJV) Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb.
3/15/2014 5:10:45 PM	The book of Revelation as "liturgy".
a_nubian Columbus, OH 52, joined Jan. 2011	Quote from msreese63: WHAT?? You and VF called Jesus a fruit?? Whatever am I gonna do with you guys?
3/15/2014 10:55:32 PM	The book of Revelation as "liturgy".
a_nubian Columbus, OH 52, joined Jan. 2011	Quote from msreese63: Couldn't resist, a_nubian. LOL Sorry It was cute
3/16/2014 8:49:49 AM	The book of Revelation as "liturgy".
visitingfriends Evansville, WI 76, joined Jan. 2011	Quote from msreese63: WHAT?? You and VF called Jesus a fruit?? Whatever am I gonna do with you guys? 1 Corinthians 15:20 (NASB95) 20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. Can't argue with scripture reese, not only Jesus, but also those who are grafted into the vine and/or tree and are asleep in Christ. That means you are a "fruit" as well. Their is an old saying, we become what we eat.
3/16/2014 8:58:11 AM	The book of Revelation as "liturgy".
visitingfriends Evansville, WI 76, joined Jan. 2011	1 Corinthians 10:17 ? Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all share the one loaf. [Edited 3/16/2014 8:58:31 AM ]
3/16/2014 10:53:19 AM	The book of Revelation as "liturgy".
mindya Vancouver, BC 63, joined Jan. 2009	I'm a loafer alright.....
3/16/2014 12:01:00 PM	The book of Revelation as "liturgy".
visitingfriends Evansville, WI 76, joined Jan. 2011	Mac and reese, a little humor goes a long ways.
3/18/2014 4:23:30 PM	The book of Revelation as "liturgy".
mindya Vancouver, BC 63, joined Jan. 2009	I though I'd bring Deneez' post over here where it belongs: Quote from deneez: The poem entitled “Song of Witness” or “Song of Moses,” is known in Hebrew as Shirat Ha’azinu. The “Song of Witness” was part of the weekly liturgy of the Old Covenant Church until the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD. Today, the “Song of Victory” is still sung on the Sabbath in Synagogue services, but part of the “Song of Witness” is only recited once a year in the weekly readings....agape study.... Again I don't see any references for the above statements - the nearest I can find is from the booklet "Sunday at Home" which states "tradition informs us that the "Song of Moses" was sung in sections (one on each sabbath) in the Temple, at the close of the Sabbath morning service...etc.. Source: Click Here for Sunday at home Without a reference to which, what or whom this "tradition informs us" is - I take the comments from agape and this "sunday at home" with a grain of salt. As we all know tradition once informed us that the sun revolved about the earth. The song of Moses is basically a testimony to Israel - blessings for obedience and curses for disobedience. That's why is is sung as a testimony against disobedient Israel prior to their destruction in 70AD. It has no part in new covenant worship in my opinion as it's only application was to the old covenant Israel.
3/18/2014 9:53:46 PM	The book of Revelation as "liturgy".
deneez Rochester, MI 57, joined Apr. 2012	I had sworn off this thread but since it IS on topic, never say never. The song of Moses is basically a testimony to Israel - blessings for obedience and curses for disobedience. That's why is is sung as a testimony against disobedient Israel prior to their destruction in 70AD. It has no part in new covenant worship in my opinion as it's only application was to the old covenant Israel. The 'song of Moses' is found in the scroll of the law, the Pentateuch. I had to do a look in the Jewish encyclopedia to find this>>>>The verses of the song of "Ha'azinu" (Deut. xxxii. 1-43) are placed in seventy double rows, the first four lines as follows: V11p130003.jpg The scroll must be written in accordance with the Masoretic Ketib, the abnormalities of certain letters being reproduced (See Small and Large Letters). If the final letters V11p130004.jpg are written in the middle of a word, or if their equivalents V11p130005.jpg are written at the end, the scroll is unfit for public reading (Soferim ii. 10).<<<<<<<< The public reading during liturgy can be seen in Nehimiah Chapter 8, we see the scroll being read. Regarding no part in New Covenant Worship you are right! We don't read from the Torah. We sing a NEW song: Revelation 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation..... The authorship is the Scripture itself.
3/18/2014 10:03:39 PM	The book of Revelation as "liturgy".
deneez Rochester, MI 57, joined Apr. 2012	mindya, check this out, and no it is not from agape bible study, it is just me, I think this is awesome. When I did a google check, this came up under 'Scroll of the Law'...check this: The Pentateuch, written on a scroll of parchment. The Rabbis count among the mandatory precepts incumbent upon every Israelite the obligation to write a copy of the Pentateuch for his personal use. The passage "Now therefore write ye this song for you, and teach it the children of Israel" (Deut. xxxi. 19) is interpreted as referring to the whole Pentateuch, wherein "this song" is included (Sanh. 21b). The king was required to possess a second copy, to be kept near his throne and carried into battle (Deut. xvii. 18; Maimonides, "Yad," Sefer Torah, vii. 1, 2). One who is unable to write the scroll himself should hire a scribe to write it for him; or if he purchases a scroll he should have it examined by a competent Sofer. If a Jew inherits a scroll it is his duty to write or have written another. This scroll he must not sell, even in dire distress, except for the purpose of paying his teacher's fee or of de. fraying his own marriage expenses (Meg. 27a)......... I thought wow, John was instructed 'To Write'.... Revelation 1:11 which said: "Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea." This happened while he was in the Spirit on the Lords Day. Very cool!!!
3/18/2014 11:24:43 PM	The book of Revelation as "liturgy".
deneez Rochester, MI 57, joined Apr. 2012	Well, it seemed absolutely urgent to a friend, lol...that I clarify the FACT we do read from the first 5 books of the Old Testament, but we do not read from scrolls as in a synagogue. We revere the bible in a procession at the onset of the Mass, and after the New Testament reading by the Priest, he then kisses the book. There. Good night. we have 3 readings on Sundays, one is always from the Gospels and in between a psalm is sung.
3/23/2014 12:23:10 PM	The book of Revelation as "liturgy".
mindya Vancouver, BC 63, joined Jan. 2009	I've been reading up somewhat on this topic and came across some interesting things - not sure I agree with whats being said: Thomas Hopko in "The Orthodox faith", Vol 4; The Bible and Church History (Orthodox Church in America, 1973) says: The worship of the Church has traditionally and quite consciously been patterned after the divine and eternal realities revealed in (the book of) Revelation. The prayer of the Church and its mystical celebration are one with the prayer and celebration of the kingdom of heaven. Thus, in the Church, with the angels and saints, through Christ the Word, inspired by the Holy Spirit, the faithful believers of the assembly of the saved offer perpetual adoration of God the Father Almighty. Dom Gregory Dix in his lengthy tome "The Shape of Liturgy" (1983) has this to say: Liturgical puritanism is not "Protestant", it is instead, a general theory about worship, not specifically protestant nor indeed confined to Christians of any kind. It is a working theory upon which all Mohammedam worship is based. It was put as well as anybody by the Roman poet Persius or the pagan philosopher Seneca in the first century, and they are only elaborating a thesis from Greek philosophical authors going back to the seventh century B.C. Briefly, the puritan theory is that worship is a purely mental activity, to be exercised by a strictly psychological "attention" to a subjective or spiritual experience.....Over against this puritan theory of worship stands another - the ceremonious conception of worship, whose foundation principle is that worship as such is not a purely intellectual and affective experience, but one in which the whole man, body as well as soul, his aesthetic and volitional as well as his intellectual powers must take full part. It regards worship as an 'act' just as much as experience. The above seems to imply all of the five senses are used in Orthodox worship.
3/23/2014 8:46:12 PM	The book of Revelation as "liturgy".
deneez Rochester, MI 57, joined Apr. 2012	The above seems to imply all of the five senses are used in Orthodox worship...... I see it and would agree, including taste. The word is sweet as honey and eaten in revelation before it sours in their stomachs. (their scrolls and law were sweet as honey to them, but with judgment upon them with what was 'to come quickly', then became sour) In the New Covenant the Word became Flesh, and you know the rest..."Unless you eat the Flesh of the Son of Man".... So I would agree here.
3/24/2014 1:08:28 PM	The book of Revelation as "liturgy".
mindya Vancouver, BC 63, joined Jan. 2009	What about those of us that don't have any sense?
3/24/2014 1:57:57 PM	The book of Revelation as "liturgy".
deneez Rochester, MI 57, joined Apr. 2012	I have to honestly say that this doesn't happen too much but I am speechless.
3/24/2014 2:49:25 PM	The book of Revelation as "liturgy".
mindya Vancouver, BC 63, joined Jan. 2009	"speechless" - that's gotta be hard on a woman.... Ok, so far the only "conclusion" I've reached (I'm not done yet) is that the revelation "intially" was meant to be read out in a "church" setting back when it was written Rev 1:3 (NASB) Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near. There is a distinction in the above between the "he who reads" as in reading out to and "those who hear the words" So we have a distinction between the reader and those listening to what is read out. That said I still don't see that this is a pattern for worship - yet. The "hearers" would not have access to the letter itself (as in many copies) there would most likely have been one in each of the original seven churches addressed in the opening verses, and maybe a few copies made and distributed to other churches.
3/24/2014 11:04:20 PM	The book of Revelation as "liturgy".
deneez Rochester, MI 57, joined Apr. 2012	Matthew 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Look for the eagle in revelation and I'll get back to this later.
3/25/2014 8:30:17 AM	The book of Revelation as "liturgy".
deneez Rochester, MI 57, joined Apr. 2012	Allow me to back up a bit. Is your analogy of 70 ad primarily the destruction of Jerusalem the city per se', or the destruction of Jerusalem insomuch as the distinct Holy people of Israel, their Priests and their Temple?
3/25/2014 1:09:20 PM	The book of Revelation as "liturgy".
mindya Vancouver, BC 63, joined Jan. 2009	Quote from deneez: Allow me to back up a bit. Is your analogy of 70 ad primarily the destruction of Jerusalem the city per se', or the destruction of Jerusalem insomuch as the distinct Holy people of Israel, their Priests and their Temple? Not sure what you are asking here deneeza, is the temple still standing? Are there a bunch of priests officiating in the temple in Jerusalem?
3/25/2014 3:01:40 PM	The book of Revelation as "liturgy".
deneez Rochester, MI 57, joined Apr. 2012	OK, you answered my question. Thus far we agree on Babylon and the role pagan Rome took at this time and the direct references of 'this generation'. But, to fully explain the liturgical aspect of the 'Revealing of Christ' (Revelation) we (or I can't) see it but in light of the Temple, historical 70 ad, and through the eyes of a Hebrew audience. I found a very short clip that explains what I am trying to convey better than I could if I were to copy and paste or long hand anything at all. So, I am asking your perm. to post it??? I only would ask that you look at it.
3/25/2014 3:27:59 PM	The book of Revelation as "liturgy".
mindya Vancouver, BC 63, joined Jan. 2009	If ya want. Only trouble I find with video's is that they rarely cite any sources and in a discussion forum it's hard to address points raised in video - a written script of the video is easier/better to deal with. edited to add - I'm currently on a slow internet connection - playing youtube vid's at times is hopeless. [Edited 3/25/2014 3:29:21 PM ]
3/25/2014 5:30:36 PM	The book of Revelation as "liturgy".
deneez Rochester, MI 57, joined Apr. 2012	oakey dokey, thanx. It's short enough but explains it. Take yer time.
3/26/2014 3:56:44 PM	The book of Revelation as "liturgy".
mindya Vancouver, BC 63, joined Jan. 2009	Quote from deneez: oakey dokey, thanx. It's short enough but explains it. Take yer time. Interesting enough - While I agree that Justin Martyr most likely gives an accurate description of what took place in celebrating the Lord's supper in the early churches and that the RC church has that as a foundation Barber does not establish the book of Revelation as the source for the liturgy or that the book of revelation mirrors or was a description of the liturgy. The basic Lord's supper as described by Justin is practiced in most protestant and evangelical churches generally without the smells, bells and whistles (or the transmutation of the bread and wine) - I believe that was a much later development from what I've been reading so far from other sources. Justin makes no mention of "objects" used in the supper - or even mentions the book of revelation - which if according to Barbers argument would have been prominent in what Justin has to say. I don't accept the liturgy from the book of revelation theory because it deals with the judgment of the whor.e aka 1st century Jerusalem and apostate Israel and is uniquely "Jewish" in nature and is the culmination of the old covenant "blessings and curses" and not of the new testament new heavens and earth. It is now an "historical document" with valuable insights This kind of argument has been put forward by many postmillennialist writers including Protestant writers such as David Chilton in his book "The Days of Vengeance" - he would be what is considered a partial "preterist". I checked his source of Justin's description on the Vatican website which is somewhat a "paraphrase" of what Justin wrote: On the day we call the day of the sun, all who dwell in the city or country gather in the same place. The memoirs of the apostles and the writings of the prophets are read, as much as time permits. When the reader has finished, he who presides over those gathered admonishes and challenges them to imitate these beautiful things. Then we all rise together and offer prayers* for ourselves . . .and for all others, wherever they may be, so that we may be found righteous by our life and actions, and faithful to the commandments, so as to obtain eternal salvation. When the prayers are concluded we exchange the kiss. Then someone brings bread and a cup of water and wine mixed together to him who presides over the brethren. He takes them and offers praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name of the Son and of the Holy Spirit and for a considerable time he gives thanks (in Greek: eucharistian) that we have been judged worthy of these gifts. When he has concluded the prayers and thanksgivings, all present give voice to an acclamation by saying: 'Amen.' When he who presides has given thanks and the people have responded, those whom we call deacons give to those present the "eucharisted" bread, wine and water and take them to those who are absent.171 171 St. Justin, Apol. 1, 65-67, Page 6, 428-429, the text before the asterisk (*) is from chap. 67. http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c1a3.htm Here is what Justin had to say:
3/26/2014 5:22:40 PM	The book of Revelation as "liturgy".
deneez Rochester, MI 57, joined Apr. 2012	In a 16 minute summary it did the best it could with so much more to say. Thanx for taking the time to look at it though, sincerely! We do agree on a lot of things regarding 1st century Israel, but being it is the Revelation of Jesus Christ it would be important to see the Promise of the New and Everlasting Covenant 'revealed' as well. Not simply, the end of the Temple////such as it is that it centered on 'their' worship, we now worship in spirit, and in Truth, culminating in the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. I believe that is what John saw. Yep, it was the end. But the last chapters deal with the beginning as well. Thanx for taking a gander.
3/26/2014 11:51:27 PM	The book of Revelation as "liturgy".
mindya Vancouver, BC 63, joined Jan. 2009	Quote from deneez: In a 16 minute summary it did the best it could with so much more to say. That's true, but having read similar ideas put forward by people such as David Chilton (and his book is well written and comprehensive) I'd doubt whether the guy can bring any other convincing proof in my opinion. And he did say "this was nothing new". In both cases what I believe I'm seeing is interpretation through the lens of amillennialism and a denial of what John stated, "at hand" and "must shortly be done". If John's actual "time" statements are honored then the other "stuff" will fall into place. We do agree on a lot of things regarding 1st century Israel, but being it is the Revelation of Jesus Christ it would be important to see the Promise of the New and Everlasting Covenant 'revealed' as well. Not simply, the end of the Temple////such as it is that it centered on 'their' worship, we now worship in spirit, and in Truth, culminating in the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. I believe that is what John saw. Yep, it was the end. But the last chapters deal with the beginning as well. Thanx for taking a gander. (Rev 19:2 KJV) For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whre, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.* (Rev 19:3 KJV) And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever. (Rev 19:4 KJV) And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia. (Rev 19:5 KJV) And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great. (Rev 19:6 KJV) And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. (Rev 19:7 KJV) Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. So do you really think there is a gap of a few thousand years or more between verse 19:2 and 19:7? (Rev 22:6 KJV) And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to show unto his servants the things which must shortly be done. (Rev 22:10 KJV) And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

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