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12/11/2015 4:08:29 PM A Great Moral Question: Tiny Fetuses Feel Pain. Isn't Abortion Cruel?  

walt_oftheearth
Over 4,000 Posts! (6,770)
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Morality and religion are linked; at least they should be. Here is some data indicating that by the 7th week of gestation, a tiny human embryos the size of a blueberry can feel pain. Abortion is then not only unethical, but also cruel.

Now, before reading the medical science statements below, I want to be clear this isn't to pass judgment on anyone, or cause anyone undue grief or guilt. It is written that the only sin that is unpardonable is the sin against the holy spirit. So readers of this thread can be assured there is forgiveness offered even for this.

Kadic, 2012, page 3, “The earliest reactions to painful stimuli motor reflexes can be detected at 7.5 weeks of gestation (Table 2).”

Salihagic Kadic, A., Predojevic, M., Fetal neurophysiology according to gestational age, Seminars in Fetal & Neonatal Medicine. 17:5 (2012) 1–5, 3.


Myers, 2004, p.241, para.2, “The first essential requirement for pain is the presence of sensory receptors, which first develop in the perioral area at approximately 7 weeks gestation and are diffusely located throughout the body by 14 weeks.95”

Myers LB, Bulich LA, Hess, P, Miller, NM. Fetal endoscopic surgery: indications and anaesthetic management. Best Practice & Research Clinical Anaesthesiology. 18:2 (2004) 231-258.


Anand, 1987, p.2, para.2, “Cutaneous sensory receptors appear in the perioral area of the human fetus in the 7th week of gestation; they spread to the rest of the face, the palms of the hands, and the soles of the feet by the 11th week, to the trunk and proximal parts of the arms and legs by the 15th week, and to all cutaneous and mucous surfaces by the 20th week.25,26”

Anand KJS, Hickey PR. Pain and its effects in the human neonate and fetus. New England Journal of Medicine. 317:21 (1987) 1321-1329.

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12/11/2015 4:18:10 PM A Great Moral Question: Tiny Fetuses Feel Pain. Isn't Abortion Cruel?  

sail_dancer
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Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prenatal_perception

Prenatal pain

The hypothesis that human fetuses are capable of perceiving pain in the early stages of a pregnancy has not received sufficient evidence to be proven or disproven; the developmental stage of research and instrumentation is so far insufficient to this task.

Some authors,[3] however, argue that fetal pain is possible from the second half, or even the second tremester,[4] of pregnancy.[5] In March 2010, the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists submitted a report,[6] concluding that "Current research shows that the sensory structures are not developed or specialized enough to respond to pain in a fetus of less than 24 weeks", pg. 22.


The neural regions and pathways that are responsible for pain experience remain under debate but it is generally accepted that pain from physical trauma requires an intact pathway from the periphery, through the spinal cord, into the thalamus and on to regions of the cerebral cortex including the primary sensory cortex (S1), the insular cortex and the anterior cingulated cortex.3,4 Fetal pain is not possible before these necessary neural pathways and structures (figure 1) have developed. -pg. 3

The report specifically identified the anterior cingulate as the area of the cerebral cortex responsible for pain processing. The anterior cingulate is part of the cerebral cortex, which begins to develop in the fetus at week 26.

On the other extreme, in 1996, physiologist Peter McCullagh spoke on behalf of a pro-life group to the British Parliament. He said, "At what stage of human prenatal development are those anatomical structures subserving the appreciation of pain present and functional? The balance of evidence at the present time indicates that these structures are present and functional before the tenth week of intrauterine life."[7]

The issue is considerably complicated by the usual difficulties in perceptual research of unresponsive subjects: "Though techniques such as positron electron tomography scanning might reveal those parts of the brain that respond to a painful stimulus, this does not tell us what the individual is experiencing."[8]

Researchers from the University of California, San Francisco in the Journal of the American Medical Association concluded in a meta-analysis of data from dozens of medical reports and studies that fetuses are unlikely to feel pain until the third trimester of pregnancy.[9][10] There is an emerging consensus among developmental neurobiologists that the establishment of thalamocortical connections (at weeks 22-34, reliably at 29) is a critical event with regard to fetal perception of pain, as they allow peripheral sensory information to arrive at the cortex.[11]

Because pain can involve sensory, emotional and cognitive factors, it may be difficult to know when painful experiences are perceived, even if it is known when thalamocortical connections are established.[12] In 2006, an opinion piece by Stuart Derbyshire[13] in the British Medical Journal proposed that pain is dependent upon cognitive and emotional developments that occur after birth:


Theories of development assume that the early human mind begins with minimal content and gradually evolves into the rich experience of older children and adults. Although the view of a neonate as a blank slate, or tabula rasa, is generally rejected, it is broadly accepted that psychological processes have content concerning people, objects, and symbols, which lay in the first instance outside the brain. If pain also depends on content derived from outside the brain, then fetal pain cannot be possible, regardless of neural development.[14]

Electroencephalography suggests the capacity for functional pain perception in premature infants probably does not exist before 29 or 30 weeks; this study asserted that withdrawal reflexes and changes in heart rates and hormone levels in response to invasive procedures are reflexes that do not indicate fetal pain.[9]

Also in 2005, David Mellor and colleagues reviewed several lines of evidence that suggested a fetus does not awaken during its time in the womb. Mellor notes that much of the literature on fetal pain simply extrapolates from findings and research on premature babies. He questions the value of such data:


Systematic studies of fetal neurological function suggest, however, that there are major differences in the in utero environment and fetal neural state that make it likely that this assumption is substantially incorrect.

He and his team detected the presence of such chemicals as adenosine, pregnanolone, and prostaglandin-D2 in both human and animal fetuses, indicating that the fetus is both sedated and anesthetized when in the womb. These chemicals are oxidized with the newborn's first few breaths and washed out of the tissues, allowing consciousness to occur. If the fetus is asleep throughout gestation then the possibility of fetal pain is greatly minimized.[15] “A fetus,” Mellor told The New York Times, “is not a baby who just hasn’t been born yet.”[16]

In 2001, a working group of the Medical Research Council (UK) in the United Kingdom called for more research regarding fetal pain.[17] According to the Daily Telegraph, Eve Johnstone, the chair of that working group "makes a strong case for additional research." Ms. Johnstone told the newspaper, "We ought to study this carefully."


Peace

12/11/2015 4:21:27 PM A Great Moral Question: Tiny Fetuses Feel Pain. Isn't Abortion Cruel?  

walt_oftheearth
Over 4,000 Posts! (6,770)
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Sail, your citing Wikipedia is considered by most to be not a reliable source, for the pages are open to any Tom, D*ck, or Harry to revise.

12/11/2015 4:31:18 PM A Great Moral Question: Tiny Fetuses Feel Pain. Isn't Abortion Cruel?  

sail_dancer
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Saint Petersburg, FL
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Quote from walt_oftheearth:
Sail, your citing Wikipedia is considered by most to be not a reliable source, for the pages are open to any Tom, D*ck, or Harry to revise.


I also provided a link to a study used by that Wikipedia write-up.

Wikipedia is a good starting point ..... as long as you continue to verify the claims it makes. Stop using wiki as an excuse to attack the contents of the data contained.

Peace

12/11/2015 4:35:38 PM A Great Moral Question: Tiny Fetuses Feel Pain. Isn't Abortion Cruel?  

sail_dancer
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Just in case you missed this from my post:

The report specifically identified the anterior cingulate as the area of the cerebral cortex responsible for pain processing. The anterior cingulate is part of the cerebral cortex, which begins to develop in the fetus at week 26.


Peace



[Edited 12/11/2015 4:36:12 PM ]

12/11/2015 4:43:58 PM A Great Moral Question: Tiny Fetuses Feel Pain. Isn't Abortion Cruel?  

sail_dancer
Over 7,500 Posts!! (8,520)
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For some reason, this post never actually got posted ..... sorry about that.


Here is an excerpt from one of the studies (presented in a medical journal) that the wiki article used:

CONCLUSIONS

Pain is an emotional and psychological experience that requires conscious recognition of a noxious stimulus. Consequently, the capacity for conscious perception of pain can arise only after thalamocortical pathways begin to function, which may occur in the third trimester around 29 to 30 weeks’ gestational age, based on the limited data available. Small-scale histological studies of human fetuses have found that thalamocortical fibers begin to form between 23 and 30 weeks’ gestational age, but these studies did not specifically examine thalamocortical pathways active in pain perception.


While the presence of thalamocortical fibers is necessary for pain perception, their mere presence is insufficient—this pathway must also be functional. It has been proposed that transient, functional thalamocortical circuits may form via subplate neurons around midgestation, but no human study has demonstrated this early functionality. Instead, constant SEPs appear at 29 weeks’ PCA, and EEG patterns denoting wakefulness appear around 30 weeks’ PCA. Both of these tests of cortical function suggest that conscious perception of pain does not begin before the third trimester. Cutaneous withdrawal reflexes and hormonal stress responses present earlier in development are not explicit or sufficient evidence of pain perception because they are not specific to noxious stimuli and are not cortically mediated.


A variety of anesthetic and analgesic techniques have been used for fetal surgery, including maternal general anesthesia, regional anesthesia, and administration of medications for placental transfer to the fetus. However, these techniques are not necessarily applicable to abortions. Surgical procedures undertaken for fetal benefit use anesthesia to achieve objectives unrelated to pain control, such as uterine relaxation, fetal immobilization, and possible prevention of neuroendocrine stress responses associated with poor surgical outcomes. Thus, fetal anesthesia may be medically indicated for fetal surgery regardless of whether fetal pain exists.


In the context of abortion, fetal analgesia would be used solely for beneficence toward the fetus, assuming fetal pain exists. This interest must be considered in concert with maternal safety and fetal effectiveness of any proposed anesthetic or analgesic technique. For instance, general anesthesia increases abortion morbidity and mortality for women and substantially increases the cost of abortion. Although placental transfer of many opioids and sedative-hypnotics has been determined, the maternal dose required for fetal analgesia is unknown, as is the safety for women at such doses. Furthermore, no established protocols exist for administering anesthesia or analgesia directly to the fetus for minimally invasive fetal procedures or abortions. Experimental techniques, such as administration of fentanyl directly to the fetus and intra-amniotic injection of sufentanil in pregnant ewes, have not been shown to decrease fetal pain and are of unknown safety in humans.


Because pain perception probably does not function before the third trimester, discussions of fetal pain for abortions performed before the end of the second trimester should be noncompulsory. Fetal anesthesia or analgesia should not be recommended or routinely offered for abortion because current experimental techniques provide unknown fetal benefit and may increase risks for the woman. Instead, further research should focus on when pain-related thalamocortical pathways become functional in humans. If the fetus can feel pain, additional research may lead to effective fetal anesthesia or analgesia techniques that are also safe for women.



Source: http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=201429

Peace

12/11/2015 5:02:40 PM A Great Moral Question: Tiny Fetuses Feel Pain. Isn't Abortion Cruel?  

walt_oftheearth
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Quote from sail_dancer:
Just in case you missed this from my post:

The report specifically identified the anterior cingulate as the area of the cerebral cortex responsible for pain processing. The anterior cingulate is part of the cerebral cortex, which begins to develop in the fetus at week 26.



Anand, 2006, p.2, col.2, para.5, “Multiple lines of evidence thus corroborate that the key mechanisms of consciousness or conscious sensory perception are not dependent on cortical activity

Anand KJS. Consciousness, cortical function, and pain perception in nonverbal humans. Behavioral and Brain Sciences. 30:1 (2007) 82-83.

Seems like we have medical opinions disagreeing with each other. I wonder why. Is there any chance that the sources you cite were produced by abortion practictioners?

Nah. That couldn't be, could it?

12/11/2015 5:46:29 PM A Great Moral Question: Tiny Fetuses Feel Pain. Isn't Abortion Cruel?  

sail_dancer
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Quote from walt_oftheearth:
Anand, 2006, p.2, col.2, para.5, “Multiple lines of evidence thus corroborate that the key mechanisms of consciousness or conscious sensory perception are not dependent on cortical activity

Anand KJS. Consciousness, cortical function, and pain perception in nonverbal humans. Behavioral and Brain Sciences. 30:1 (2007) 82-83.

Seems like we have medical opinions disagreeing with each other. I wonder why. Is there any chance that the sources you cite were produced by abortion practictioners?

Nah. That couldn't be, could it?


Its more likely that your sources (that are against abortions) are grasping at strings trying to find reasons to attack abortions ..... making statements that studies have proven false.

Let's face it, Walt ..... you anti-abortionists are not known for your science claims ..... you tend to use pseudo science to support your claims.

Peace

12/11/2015 5:57:04 PM A Great Moral Question: Tiny Fetuses Feel Pain. Isn't Abortion Cruel?  

walt_oftheearth
Over 4,000 Posts! (6,770)
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Quote from sail_dancer: "Its more likely that your sources .. are .... making statements that studies have proven false."

That's, likely, quite a claim.

Which of the opening post's cited statements, by medical professionals, published in respectable science periodicals (that I cited), have been proven false?

And which studies have proven any of them false?



[Edited 12/11/2015 5:57:42 PM ]

12/11/2015 6:36:51 PM A Great Moral Question: Tiny Fetuses Feel Pain. Isn't Abortion Cruel?  

aphrodisianus
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Quote from walt_oftheearth:
...
Now, before reading the medical science statements below, I want to be clear this isn't to pass judgment on anyone, or cause anyone undue grief or guilt. It is written that the only sin that is unpardonable is the sin against the holy spirit.....



Since there is no such thing as a holy spirit then there is no such thing as an unpardonable sin. Even if there was such a thing as holy spirit only reveals your lack of morals, and certainly moral vacancy of Christianity. You would forgive pedophiles, murderers, genocidal manics, and so on. According to you, the even the worst psychopath can't do anything really that wrong. If you simply state "it is written" would still show us your lack of personal moral character because of your lack of personal responsibility.

12/11/2015 6:58:22 PM A Great Moral Question: Tiny Fetuses Feel Pain. Isn't Abortion Cruel?  

sail_dancer
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Quote from walt_oftheearth:
Quote from sail_dancer: "Its more likely that your sources .. are .... making statements that studies have proven false."

That's, likely, quite a claim.

Which of the opening post's cited statements, by medical professionals, published in respectable science periodicals (that I cited), have been proven false?

And which studies have proven any of them false?


And I could ask the same of you.

Let's face it there is a need for more studies concerning this topic.

I happen to be of the opinion that since the chances are almost zero for a successful premature birth prior to 23 weeks ..... then the chances of aa fetus actually feeling pain in early weeks of pregnancy are slim. I think a developing fetus would focus more on developing those functions needed for survival outside the womb ..... not necessarily the function of feeling pain.

Pain is an alarm system to inform the brain that something is wrong ..... but if the fetus has not developed enough for survival ..... why even let the brain know?

Peace

12/11/2015 7:18:18 PM A Great Moral Question: Tiny Fetuses Feel Pain. Isn't Abortion Cruel?  

walt_oftheearth
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Quote from aphrodisianus:
Since there is no such thing as a holy spirit then there is no such thing as an unpardonable sin. Even if there was such a thing as holy spirit only reveals your lack of morals, and certainly moral vacancy of Christianity. You would forgive pedophiles, murderers, genocidal manics, and so on. According to you, the even the worst psychopath can't do anything really that wrong. If you simply state "it is written" would still show us your lack of personal moral character because of your lack of personal responsibility.


But there is responsibility. And I uphold personal responsibility for the offenses you listed. Criminal responsibilities. Just because, according to the laws of the land, an offender must be convicted & sentenced--and should be--it does not mean they can not find forgiveness before God. If they do find that forgiveness, does death row let them go? Of course not.

That is what makes the resurrection and message of forgiveness of sins so wonderful. The only unpardonable sin, according to scripture, is a lifelong--to the grave--rejection of that free gift of reconciliation & peace with God.

12/11/2015 8:02:31 PM A Great Moral Question: Tiny Fetuses Feel Pain. Isn't Abortion Cruel?  

walt_oftheearth
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Quote from sail_dancer:
Let's face it there is a need for more studies concerning this topic.


Who says so? You, or abortion practitioners?

I suspect you say more studies are needed,.. because you don't like the results of those that have already been conducted.

You sign each of your posts with "Peace." Do abortion practitioners also say "Peace" just before they violently enter a womb and destroy a human life?

I have to think they do, because you also seem to be very much in support of abortion on demand.

The old argument has been ingrained in women's minds, by Planned Parenthood that "It's my body." Well, no, that life miraculously formed is not part of a woman's body. It just happens, for a time, to be nestled safely inside it--we hope.

How silly would be that same woman's argument, if she did find life sacred, and gave birth,... saying "this is not a small boy or girl, but my body. "It" belongs to me.

It is horrifying mankind's inhumanity to man, when we reduce a human being to an "it."

12/11/2015 8:28:05 PM A Great Moral Question: Tiny Fetuses Feel Pain. Isn't Abortion Cruel?  

sail_dancer
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Quote from walt_oftheearth:
Who says so? You, or abortion practitioners?


Many call for it ..... in my research I have found that most studies call for more research on the topic.

I suspect you say more studies are needed,.. because you don't like the results of those that have already been conducted.


Not so ..... even the study I posted about calls for the need of more study in this area.

you also seem to be very much in support of abortion on demand


Has nothing to do with abortion ..... it has to do with a woman's rights.

Peace

12/11/2015 8:54:08 PM A Great Moral Question: Tiny Fetuses Feel Pain. Isn't Abortion Cruel?  

jrbogie1949
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Quote from walt_oftheearth:
Morality and religion are linked; at least they should be. Here is some data indicating that by the 7th week of gestation, a tiny human embryos the size of a blueberry can feel pain. Abortion is then not only unethical, but also cruel.

Now, before reading the medical science statements below, I want to be clear this isn't to pass judgment on anyone, or cause anyone undue grief or guilt. It is written that the only sin that is unpardonable is the sin against the holy spirit. So readers of this thread can be assured there is forgiveness offered even for this.

Kadic, 2012, page 3, “The earliest reactions to painful stimuli motor reflexes can be detected at 7.5 weeks of gestation (Table 2).”

Salihagic Kadic, A., Predojevic, M., Fetal neurophysiology according to gestational age, Seminars in Fetal & Neonatal Medicine. 17:5 (2012) 1–5, 3.


Myers, 2004, p.241, para.2, “The first essential requirement for pain is the presence of sensory receptors, which first develop in the perioral area at approximately 7 weeks gestation and are diffusely located throughout the body by 14 weeks.95”

Myers LB, Bulich LA, Hess, P, Miller, NM. Fetal endoscopic surgery: indications and anaesthetic management. Best Practice & Research Clinical Anaesthesiology. 18:2 (2004) 231-258.


Anand, 1987, p.2, para.2, “Cutaneous sensory receptors appear in the perioral area of the human fetus in the 7th week of gestation; they spread to the rest of the face, the palms of the hands, and the soles of the feet by the 11th week, to the trunk and proximal parts of the arms and legs by the 15th week, and to all cutaneous and mucous surfaces by the 20th week.25,26”

Anand KJS, Hickey PR. Pain and its effects in the human neonate and fetus. New England Journal of Medicine. 317:21 (1987) 1321-1329.


morality is no more linked to religion than secularism is. i'm not religious and think abortion is the wrong choice for a woman to make although the court got it right in roe v wade. a woman cannot be denied equal protection and due process of law.

12/11/2015 8:55:18 PM A Great Moral Question: Tiny Fetuses Feel Pain. Isn't Abortion Cruel?  

walt_oftheearth
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Quote from sail_dancer:
Has nothing to do with abortion ..... it has to do with a woman's rights.


What about the rights of an unborn child?

Or is it that a lump of "tissue" has no rights?

Go ahead. You can answer that question.

12/11/2015 9:07:45 PM A Great Moral Question: Tiny Fetuses Feel Pain. Isn't Abortion Cruel?  

jrbogie1949
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Quote from walt_oftheearth:
What about the rights of an unborn child?

Or is it that a lump of "tissue" has no rights?

Go ahead. You can answer that question.


the question hasn't been answered and if we're talking about the law the question hasn't been asked of the court. roe's petition wasn't to ask about fetal rights. she asked the court to rule that her 14th amendment rights had been violated.

12/11/2015 9:21:31 PM A Great Moral Question: Tiny Fetuses Feel Pain. Isn't Abortion Cruel?  

jrbogie1949
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walt, if you're so hung up on the rights of the fetus why don't you find one about to be aborted and sue on it's behalf? let the courts decide. ponder that awhile and i think you'll see it's a near impossible task.

12/11/2015 9:22:49 PM A Great Moral Question: Tiny Fetuses Feel Pain. Isn't Abortion Cruel?  

walt_oftheearth
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Quote from jrbogie1949:
the question hasn't been answered and if we're talking about the law the question hasn't been asked of the court. roe's petition wasn't to ask about fetal rights. she asked the court to rule that her 14th amendment rights had been violated.


Roe asked the court to rule that her 14th amendment rights had been violated. And exactly how were they being violated? By an unborn child? That is the case.

Excerpt from 14th Amendment......

"No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law."

The court in roe v wade interpreted (Supreme Court does not make laws; only interprets the constitution) that an unborn child was not a person.

I'll repeat that for emphasis...

The so called U.S. supreme court, despite what might have been Roe's original petition, decided that an unborn child is NOT a person.

Let us think about that for a while, and let it sink in.

12/11/2015 9:23:48 PM A Great Moral Question: Tiny Fetuses Feel Pain. Isn't Abortion Cruel?  

walt_oftheearth
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Quote from jrbogie1949:
walt, if you're so hung up on the rights of the fetus why don't you find one about to be aborted and sue on it's behalf? let the courts decide. ponder that awhile and i think you'll see it's a near impossible task.


You were once a fetus, JR.

12/11/2015 9:33:25 PM A Great Moral Question: Tiny Fetuses Feel Pain. Isn't Abortion Cruel?  

jrbogie1949
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Quote from walt_oftheearth:
Roe asked the court to rule that her 14th amendment rights had been violated. And exactly how were they being violated? By an unborn child? That is the case.


that isn't the case. roe didn't sue the fetus. she sued wade, the dallas county district attorney who enforced the law banning abortion.

Excerpt from 14th Amendment......

"No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law."

The court in roe v wade interpreted (Supreme Court does not make laws; only interprets the constitution) that an unborn child was not a person.

I'll repeat that for emphasis...

The so called U.S. supreme court, despite what might have been Roe's original petition, decided that an unborn child is NOT a person.

Let us think about that for a while, and let it sink in.


hahahaha. you conveniently omitted the very first sentence in the amendment;

"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside."

a fetus has yet to be born or naturalized, no. you have a serious deficiency in your knowledge of jurisprudence in america walt. the supremes didn't decide that the unborn child is not a person. the 14th amendment made that decision as written. the court is forbidden to take up an issue for which a petition has not been filed. separation of poweres, you see. think about it and let it sink in my ass.

12/11/2015 9:34:38 PM A Great Moral Question: Tiny Fetuses Feel Pain. Isn't Abortion Cruel?  

jrbogie1949
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Quote from walt_oftheearth:
You were once a fetus, JR.


that's why i think a woman should not chose to abort a fetus.

12/11/2015 9:45:20 PM A Great Moral Question: Tiny Fetuses Feel Pain. Isn't Abortion Cruel?  

walt_oftheearth
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In 1866, when the 14th amendment was written, no one knew the marvels & intricacies of life in the womb. All they knew was "born."

But the court in roe v wade knew, and yet decided, with incredible blindness, that an unborn child was part of a woman's body? Her body?

But here is something spectacular. An old, ancient, out of date "book" revels something astounding:

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you" ~ Jeremiah 1:5

All life is sacred.

The taking of life, in war, is one thing, but the taking of the life of an unborn child is something very much different.

One is killing, by necessity

The other is murder, by convenience.

12/12/2015 3:29:34 AM A Great Moral Question: Tiny Fetuses Feel Pain. Isn't Abortion Cruel?  

sail_dancer
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Quote from jrbogie1949:
that's why i think a woman should not chose to abort a fetus.




Peace

12/12/2015 3:45:15 AM A Great Moral Question: Tiny Fetuses Feel Pain. Isn't Abortion Cruel?  

sail_dancer
Over 7,500 Posts!! (8,520)
Saint Petersburg, FL
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Quote from walt_oftheearth:
The taking of life, in war, is one thing, but the taking of the life of an unborn child is something very much different.



UNBORN CHILD?

Yes! ..... it is something very much different ..... it is called an abortion ..... you can't kill or murder something that has never taken a breath or ever had the ability to live on its own.

Stop trying to redefine the words "baby" or "child" ..... if you don't like using the word "fetus" ..... you may prefer the word "parasite" instead.

Peace

12/12/2015 6:30:42 AM A Great Moral Question: Tiny Fetuses Feel Pain. Isn't Abortion Cruel?  

aphrodisianus
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Quote from walt_oftheearth:
But there is responsibility. And I uphold personal responsibility for the offenses you listed. Criminal responsibilities. Just because, according to the laws of the land, an offender must be convicted & sentenced--and should be--it does not mean they can not find forgiveness before God.
Make up your mind. Either you forgive them or you don't. Again, avoiding personal responsibility by weaseling out.

If they do find that forgiveness, does death row let them go? Of course not.
Yes they would get let go just as when a loan is forgiven you don't have to pay the debt. If you can't forgive such people who murder, etc. then according to that there many unpardonable sins. Make up your mind.

That is what makes the resurrection and message of forgiveness of sins so wonderful.
Fairy tales is your way of not being a responsible adult.

The only unpardonable sin, according to scripture, is a lifelong--to the grave--rejection of that free gift of reconciliation & peace with God.
You're self contradicting which means you're avoiding any commitment to a decision whether to forgive or not forgive pedophiles and mass murderers. That's immaturity. Taking responsibility is being mature.

12/12/2015 8:32:05 AM A Great Moral Question: Tiny Fetuses Feel Pain. Isn't Abortion Cruel?  

jrbogie1949
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (13,836)
Red Bluff, CA
67, joined Mar. 2009


Quote from walt_oftheearth:
In 1866, when the 14th amendment was written, no one knew the marvels & intricacies of life in the womb. All they knew was "born."

But the court in roe v wade knew, and yet decided, with incredible blindness, that an unborn child was part of a woman's body? Her body?

But here is something spectacular. An old, ancient, out of date "book" revels something astounding:

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you" ~ Jeremiah 1:5

All life is sacred.

The taking of life, in war, is one thing, but the taking of the life of an unborn child is something very much different.

One is killing, by necessity

The other is murder, by convenience.


show me anywhere in the roe ruling where the court even considered the rights of the fetus or that the fetus is part of a woman's body or that the fetus is a human. the court decided that because the texas statute denied roe a medical procedure her 14th amendment rights had been violated. do you even understand the structure of a civil lawsuit, walt? there are two parties; the petitioner and the respondent. the petitioner makes a claim and the court then must decide if the claim has substance. they must decide that question AND NO OTHER QUESTION unless the respondent files a counter claim, something wade did not do. in this case the claimant asserted that her constitutional rights had been violated. she made no claim about the fetal rights being violated and as such the court's only power is to rule on her rights and not the rights of the fetus.

courts in this country are forbidden to arbitrarily rule on an issue that has not been put before them. to do so would be to intrude on the power of congress to make laws. we have a concept of 'separation of powers' in our constitution and for the courts to arbitrarily decide that a law is unconstitutional without hearing argument for and against that the law in fact is unconstitutional would amount to removing any power from congress and allow the courts alone to decide the laws of the land.

that said, i asked you earlier why you don't file a complaint in court on behalf of a fetus about to be aborted that it's 14th amendment's right to equal protection will be violated. you can keep side stepping the question all day and keep whining about roe this and wade that which is settled law or you can discuss with me how we might convince a court to take on the question. i'm every bit as morally against abortion as you are and would be happy to see the procedure disappear from the face of the planet. but you and others simply ranting on and on that abortion equates to murder serves no more purpose than waking up with a woody and masterbating. it just feels good

12/12/2015 9:58:58 AM A Great Moral Question: Tiny Fetuses Feel Pain. Isn't Abortion Cruel?  

walt_oftheearth
Over 4,000 Posts! (6,770)
Avondale, AZ
61, joined Feb. 2008


Quote from jrbogie1949:
i'm every bit as morally against abortion as you are and would be happy to see the procedure disappear from the face of the planet.


JR, you mentioned that in one of your earlier posts, and I am glad to know you feel that way.

12/12/2015 1:28:32 PM A Great Moral Question: Tiny Fetuses Feel Pain. Isn't Abortion Cruel?  

jrbogie1949
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (13,836)
Red Bluff, CA
67, joined Mar. 2009


Quote from walt_oftheearth:
JR, you mentioned that in one of your earlier posts, and I am glad to know you feel that way.


i do feel that way but the difference between me and you is that i don't b*tch and moan about something that i can do nothing about, in this case settled law. what i have done is explore options that might protect future fetus' but as i suggested earlier i see such options as nearly impossible. now are you ready to move this discussion along in a worthwhile direction or will you continue to whine about a decision made more than four decades ago?

12/12/2015 1:49:21 PM A Great Moral Question: Tiny Fetuses Feel Pain. Isn't Abortion Cruel?  

walt_oftheearth
Over 4,000 Posts! (6,770)
Avondale, AZ
61, joined Feb. 2008


Quote from jrbogie1949:
i do feel that way but the difference between me and you is that i don't b*tch and moan about something that i can do nothing about, in this case settled law. what i have done is explore options that might protect future fetus' but as i suggested earlier i see such options as nearly impossible. now are you ready to move this discussion along in a worthwhile direction or will you continue to whine about a decision made more than four decades ago?


What options do you have in mind to protect those who can not yet speak for themselves? What do you envision?

I obsess over many topics, and I admit I get kinda wound up tighter than a drum sometimes. But I mean well.

12/12/2015 2:38:16 PM A Great Moral Question: Tiny Fetuses Feel Pain. Isn't Abortion Cruel?  

jrbogie1949
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (13,836)
Red Bluff, CA
67, joined Mar. 2009


Quote from walt_oftheearth:
What options do you have in mind to protect those who can not yet speak for themselves? What do you envision?

I obsess over many topics, and I admit I get kinda wound up tighter than a drum sometimes. But I mean well.


i don't see any options. that's why i use the term, 'near impossibility', but spending your time and thoughts berating a court that is long dead and gone is nothing short of wasted time. how does this 'great moral question' you pose here do anything to change what is in fact a legal matter as well as a moral one?

12/12/2015 3:35:48 PM A Great Moral Question: Tiny Fetuses Feel Pain. Isn't Abortion Cruel?  

sail_dancer
Over 7,500 Posts!! (8,520)
Saint Petersburg, FL
68, joined Apr. 2010


Quote from jrbogie1949:
how does this 'great moral question' you pose here do anything to change what is in fact a legal matter as well as a moral one?


Exactly ..... great question.

Peace

12/12/2015 4:24:06 PM A Great Moral Question: Tiny Fetuses Feel Pain. Isn't Abortion Cruel?  
m_gonzales
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (10,860)
San Antonio, TX
26, joined Sep. 2012


Even if fetuses could feel pain, so what? The argument was never about whether or not they could feel pain, but whether or not they're persons.

12/12/2015 4:34:07 PM A Great Moral Question: Tiny Fetuses Feel Pain. Isn't Abortion Cruel?  

aphrodisianus
Over 1,000 Posts (1,600)
Leander, TX
66, joined Oct. 2013


Quote from m_gonzales:
Even if fetuses could feel pain, so what? The argument was never about whether or not they could feel pain, but whether or not they're persons.


They are neither legally or biblically persons. You'll notice Christians never can quote scripture about the topic of abortion in their favor.

12/12/2015 4:42:01 PM A Great Moral Question: Tiny Fetuses Feel Pain. Isn't Abortion Cruel?  

aphrodisianus
Over 1,000 Posts (1,600)
Leander, TX
66, joined Oct. 2013


According to the loony Bible. Causing an unwanted abortion results in a fine. So what about wanted abortions? Apparently that is a lesser offense or no offense.

Exodus 21:22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.


12/12/2015 4:57:40 PM A Great Moral Question: Tiny Fetuses Feel Pain. Isn't Abortion Cruel?  
m_gonzales
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (10,860)
San Antonio, TX
26, joined Sep. 2012


Quote from aphrodisianus:
According to the loony Bible. Causing an unwanted abortion results in a fine. So what about wanted abortions? Apparently that is a lesser offense or no offense.

Exodus 21:22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.


Unwanted so long as husbands deem it unwanted.

Numbers 5
11 Then the Lord said to Moses, 12 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘If a man’s wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him 13 so that another man has sexual relations with her, and this is hidden from her husband and her impurity is undetected (since there is no witness against her and she has not been caught in the act), 14 and if feelings of jealousy come over her husband and he suspects his wife and she is impure—or if he is jealous and suspects her even though she is not impure— 15 then he is to take his wife to the priest. He must also take an offering of a tenth of an ephah[c] of barley flour on her behalf. He must not pour olive oil on it or put incense on it, because it is a grain offering for jealousy, a reminder-offering to draw attention to wrongdoing.

16 “‘The priest shall bring her and have her stand before the Lord. 17 Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water. 18 After the priest has had the woman stand before the Lord, he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder-offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse. 19 Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. 20 But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”— 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the Lord cause you to become a curse[d] among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. 22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.”

“‘Then the woman is to say, “Amen. So be it.”

12/12/2015 5:02:27 PM A Great Moral Question: Tiny Fetuses Feel Pain. Isn't Abortion Cruel?  

aphrodisianus
Over 1,000 Posts (1,600)
Leander, TX
66, joined Oct. 2013


Quote from m_gonzales:
Unwanted so long as husbands deem it unwanted.
......


Yes, good catch. This means the bible is pro-choice, at least for men.

12/12/2015 5:10:05 PM A Great Moral Question: Tiny Fetuses Feel Pain. Isn't Abortion Cruel?  

aphrodisianus
Over 1,000 Posts (1,600)
Leander, TX
66, joined Oct. 2013


Even loon Walt has to notice scripture. It just shows us that Walt and other Christians lack a moral compass and avoid personal responsibility.

If Christians were responsible people there would be no need for Jesus getting hung up. The very point of crucifixion is for followers to avoid full grown adult and mature personal responsibility. This is a cult that requires self loathing.



[Edited 12/12/2015 5:10:28 PM ]

12/12/2015 7:33:10 PM A Great Moral Question: Tiny Fetuses Feel Pain. Isn't Abortion Cruel?  

walt_oftheearth
Over 4,000 Posts! (6,770)
Avondale, AZ
61, joined Feb. 2008


Quote from jrbogie1949:
How does this 'great moral question' you pose here do anything to change what is in fact a legal matter as well as a moral one?


I had next to no knowledge at all on what had been researched about fetal pain. And, so, when I looked into that, in depth, yesterday, and discovered tiny embryos the size of blueberry may in fact feel pain, I was aghast.

Maybe my question is partly the guilt and remorse I still feel, and have never fully faced. For when I was quite young, a couple of my girl friends chose abortion. I often think of the life I was responsible in creating, and never got to experience.

But then God does seem to play a trick on us with our sex drives, doesn't He? His way of insuring a population.

When I served a chaplain residency some years ago, shortly after being at this level II trauma hospital, and seeing the depths of suffering, I almost quit. I told the CPE group that all the inhabitants of earth should go on strike, and have no more babies. And, let God and the devils fight it out amongst themselves.



[Edited 12/12/2015 7:35:37 PM ]

12/12/2015 8:51:08 PM A Great Moral Question: Tiny Fetuses Feel Pain. Isn't Abortion Cruel?  

jrbogie1949
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (13,836)
Red Bluff, CA
67, joined Mar. 2009


Quote from m_gonzales:
Even if fetuses could feel pain, so what? The argument was never about whether or not they could feel pain, but whether or not they're persons.


when was the argument about whether or not a fetus is a person and not if they feel pain? i've often wondered when a fetus can feel pain which is a medical argument. that they may or may not be a person is a legal argument on which no court has ruled either way.

12/12/2015 9:49:34 PM A Great Moral Question: Tiny Fetuses Feel Pain. Isn't Abortion Cruel?  
m_gonzales
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (10,860)
San Antonio, TX
26, joined Sep. 2012


Quote from jrbogie1949:
when was the argument about whether or not a fetus is a person and not if they feel pain? i've often wondered when a fetus can feel pain which is a medical argument. that they may or may not be a person is a legal argument on which no court has ruled either way.


Wasn't Casey centered on that question? At a certain point, the government had compelling interest to violate a woman's right to privacy to protect potential life which was measured by viability?

12/12/2015 9:56:01 PM A Great Moral Question: Tiny Fetuses Feel Pain. Isn't Abortion Cruel?  
cupocheer
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (188,071)
Assumption, IL
67, joined May. 2010


A fetus is a fetus not a person if a fetus was a person it would be called a person instead of a fetus.

The question of viability has nothing to do with the question of fetus v person debate.

The fetus/person debate is a scientific/political/religious debate and no party has reached a decision ergo a fetus is still a fetus and not a person.

12/12/2015 9:56:31 PM A Great Moral Question: Tiny Fetuses Feel Pain. Isn't Abortion Cruel?  
cupocheer
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (188,071)
Assumption, IL
67, joined May. 2010


You're welcome.

12/14/2015 8:41:13 PM A Great Moral Question: Tiny Fetuses Feel Pain. Isn't Abortion Cruel?  

jrbogie1949
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (13,836)
Red Bluff, CA
67, joined Mar. 2009


Quote from m_gonzales:
Wasn't Casey centered on that question? At a certain point, the government had compelling interest to violate a woman's right to privacy to protect potential life which was measured by viability?


yes but the argument here is fetal pain.

12/14/2015 8:42:00 PM A Great Moral Question: Tiny Fetuses Feel Pain. Isn't Abortion Cruel?  

jrbogie1949
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (13,836)
Red Bluff, CA
67, joined Mar. 2009


Quote from cupocheer:
You're welcome.


are you really as cute as your picture?

12/14/2015 8:57:27 PM A Great Moral Question: Tiny Fetuses Feel Pain. Isn't Abortion Cruel?  

aphrodisianus
Over 1,000 Posts (1,600)
Leander, TX
66, joined Oct. 2013


(this post has been flagged as inappropriate, sorry.)

12/14/2015 9:54:20 PM A Great Moral Question: Tiny Fetuses Feel Pain. Isn't Abortion Cruel?  

walt_oftheearth
Over 4,000 Posts! (6,770)
Avondale, AZ
61, joined Feb. 2008


Refrain from pasting huge documents in this thread.

All of that and then at the past paragraph, it concludes, fetuses "probably" feel no pain.

Probably. Yeah. That;s really conclusive.

12/14/2015 10:14:08 PM A Great Moral Question: Tiny Fetuses Feel Pain. Isn't Abortion Cruel?  

aphrodisianus
Over 1,000 Posts (1,600)
Leander, TX
66, joined Oct. 2013


(this post has been flagged as inappropriate, sorry.)

12/14/2015 10:51:09 PM A Great Moral Question: Tiny Fetuses Feel Pain. Isn't Abortion Cruel?  

sail_dancer
Over 7,500 Posts!! (8,520)
Saint Petersburg, FL
68, joined Apr. 2010


@ aphrodisianus,

Thank you for posting the complete article ..... posting excerpts just are not as effective as posting the actual article.

That is why Walt would rather not have such posts.

Peace

12/15/2015 9:55:21 AM A Great Moral Question: Tiny Fetuses Feel Pain. Isn't Abortion Cruel?  

nonstandard
Over 2,000 Posts (3,665)
York, PA
53, joined Jun. 2009


Quote from m_gonzales:
Even if fetuses could feel pain, so what? The argument was never about whether or not they could feel pain, but whether or not they're persons.


Sad , but true .

12/15/2015 10:05:38 AM A Great Moral Question: Tiny Fetuses Feel Pain. Isn't Abortion Cruel?  

jrbogie1949
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (13,836)
Red Bluff, CA
67, joined Mar. 2009


Quote from walt_oftheearth:
Refrain from pasting huge documents in this thread.

All of that and then at the past paragraph, it concludes, fetuses "probably" feel no pain.

Probably. Yeah. That;s really conclusive.


hahahahahaaaa. you've no problem asking people to spend ten minutes watching a video but a document requiring a couple minutes to read is a no no?

12/15/2015 10:06:08 AM A Great Moral Question: Tiny Fetuses Feel Pain. Isn't Abortion Cruel?  

nonstandard
Over 2,000 Posts (3,665)
York, PA
53, joined Jun. 2009


We have a neurological system that makes us feel more pain , than everything else .

Are we acknowledging , are we complaining , or are we competing ?

Is our pain more significant ?



[Edited 12/15/2015 10:07:53 AM ]

12/15/2015 6:21:04 PM A Great Moral Question: Tiny Fetuses Feel Pain. Isn't Abortion Cruel?  

aphrodisianus
Over 1,000 Posts (1,600)
Leander, TX
66, joined Oct. 2013


Quote from jrbogie1949:
hahahahahaaaa. you've no problem asking people to spend ten minutes watching a video but a document requiring a couple minutes to read is a no no?


Maybe it was taking him more than 10 minutes to read.

12/15/2015 6:42:35 PM A Great Moral Question: Tiny Fetuses Feel Pain. Isn't Abortion Cruel?  

blake6972
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (24,153)
Bunker Hill, WV
44, joined Jul. 2013


Quote from walt_oftheearth:
Who says so? You, or abortion practitioners?

I suspect you say more studies are needed,.. because you don't like the results of those that have already been conducted.

You sign each of your posts with "Peace." Do abortion practitioners also say "Peace" just before they violently enter a womb and destroy a human life?

I have to think they do, because you also seem to be very much in support of abortion on demand.

The old argument has been ingrained in women's minds, by Planned Parenthood that "It's my body." Well, no, that life miraculously formed is not part of a woman's body. It just happens, for a time, to be nestled safely inside it--we hope.

How silly would be that same woman's argument, if she did find life sacred, and gave birth,... saying "this is not a small boy or girl, but my body. "It" belongs to me.

It is horrifying mankind's inhumanity to man, when we reduce a human being to an "it."


I agree.

Abortion is murder.

Babies have rights too.

The baby is NOT a it and the term "fetus" shouldn't exist.

The term itself contradicts liberals perspective and secular laws.

Keep in mind there are various different definitions of the term fetus, but bottom line the so called "fetus" is a baby, so why label the baby with a insignificant term?

Because, it makes it easier to kill the "baby" when you place another label upon him or her , which shouldn't exist.

Very cunning and crafty are certain individuals when creating "labels" and definitions regarding the truth of the matter.

Baby or child is sufficient, no need to add or detract from that FACT.

Stages of LIFE , NOT trimesters.

Another word that shouldn't exist.

Why?

Because it robs from the true preciousness of life.

Words and definitions have power and persuasion and should be created and used accordingly.

Not in manner that masks the truth involving such a most delicate and intense subject as life.


Life is at conception.

12/15/2015 7:29:33 PM A Great Moral Question: Tiny Fetuses Feel Pain. Isn't Abortion Cruel?  

aphrodisianus
Over 1,000 Posts (1,600)
Leander, TX
66, joined Oct. 2013


Quote from blake6972:

....
Blah blah babble blabble blah Blah blah babble blabble blah Blah blah babble blabble blah
....
Life is at conception.


Actually it begins before. Eggs are alive and so is sperm. Just think of how many potential baby loons you save the planet from every time you jerk off.

12/15/2015 8:11:59 PM A Great Moral Question: Tiny Fetuses Feel Pain. Isn't Abortion Cruel?  
doom_the_menace
Over 4,000 Posts! (7,088)
Swartz Creek, MI
31, joined May. 2014


Fuk Christmas!

12/15/2015 9:49:45 PM A Great Moral Question: Tiny Fetuses Feel Pain. Isn't Abortion Cruel?  
cupocheer
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (188,071)
Assumption, IL
67, joined May. 2010




12/16/2015 8:22:12 PM A Great Moral Question: Tiny Fetuses Feel Pain. Isn't Abortion Cruel?  

walt_oftheearth
Over 4,000 Posts! (6,770)
Avondale, AZ
61, joined Feb. 2008


Quote from blake6972:
Keep in mind there are various different definitions of the term fetus, but bottom line the so called "fetus" is a baby, so why label the baby with a insignificant term?

Because, it makes it easier to kill the "baby" when you place another label upon him or her , which shouldn't exist.

Very cunning and crafty are certain individuals when creating "labels" and definitions regarding the truth of the matter.

Baby or child is sufficient, no need to add or detract from that FACT.

Stages of LIFE , NOT trimesters.

Another word that shouldn't exist.

Why?

Because it robs from the true preciousness of life.

Words and definitions have power and persuasion and should be created and used accordingly.

Not in manner that masks the truth involving such a most delicate and intense subject as life.


Well stated, and thought provoking, Blake. Thank you

12/16/2015 9:36:19 PM A Great Moral Question: Tiny Fetuses Feel Pain. Isn't Abortion Cruel?  

aphrodisianus
Over 1,000 Posts (1,600)
Leander, TX
66, joined Oct. 2013


Quote from walt_oftheearth:
Well stated, and thought provoking, Blake. Thank you


If it's important to stop or attack anythying that "robs from the true preciousness of life" then you and blake have lost your chance when your lives were robbed when you became irrational, superstitious and delusional religious fanatics.



[Edited 12/16/2015 9:36:50 PM ]

12/16/2015 10:02:25 PM A Great Moral Question: Tiny Fetuses Feel Pain. Isn't Abortion Cruel?  

walt_oftheearth
Over 4,000 Posts! (6,770)
Avondale, AZ
61, joined Feb. 2008


Quote from walt_oftheearth:

Well stated, and thought provoking, Blake. Thank you

Quote from aphrodisianus:
If it's important to stop or attack anythying that "robs from the true preciousness of life" then you and blake have lost your chance when your lives were robbed when you became irrational, superstitious and delusional religious fanatics.


So say you.

Who are you, but a bag of wind, that is here today and gone tomorrow?