Does a soul preceed self-awarness...? 16

3/1/2008 6:24:10 PM	Does a soul preceed self-awarness...?
curiousone2 Springfield, IL age: 41 online now!	Strings, I don't think loving others is difficult at all, but I think not getting angry with people is difficult.
3/1/2008 6:32:59 PM	Does a soul preceed self-awarness...?
curiousone2 Springfield, IL age: 41 online now!	Strings I know you know about the capstone as well because it is from matthew, 21:42-43. and I am positive you are familiar with Matthew. I am contending that the capstone that has been rejected is the spirtuality, that it has been rejecyed, means to me, that we have turned from the spiritual, to the egoic, worldly consciousness, and GOD has made spirituality the capstone, and it is brilliant. because it is a matter of perception, it has been almost hidden, and when it falls away, we will live in an enlightened world, I think the implication of all of the faiths is that IF we don't learn to live spiritually, we are destined to suffer. The cornerstone is spirituality, and Gods Kingdom, therefore they are intrinsic in everything, specifically religion.
3/2/2008 8:26:50 PM	Does a soul preceed self-awarness...?
burnkitty Fayetteville, AR age: 32	Quantum, thanks for your inclusion. The only thing about your entry I'm considering debatable is if god knew you before you were born, that may only mean that his observation of time may be different. Just something to consider dude. [Edited 3/2/2008 8:27:26 PM]
3/3/2008 9:30:01 AM	Does a soul preceed self-awarness...?
wisegirl33 Queensland Australia age: 43	First Post – Curious …You wrote…. 1) “Self awareness implies self, and that means that it is in physical form.” - What you have implied here with regard to these two hyphenated words, “self-awareness”; is a simplistic literal translation only, which only includes a physical “understanding of oneself”. But the true meaning of the words, “self-awareness”, can include so many more interpretations,..…. The Id, the ego and the unconscious for example (a psychological perspective); but the true meaning of the term “self-awareness” is to encompass all of these aspects of our being, the physical, the cognitive and the emotional, to name a few….So, I disagree that it only refers to a physical understanding and awareness of “our-selves”. This is far to narrow. 2) “The ego is concerned with knowledge, and it is the ego that accumulates or even has thought, the soul is not thought, the soul is spirit”. - I do not believe that the “soul is entirely spirit”, but I agree with you when you suggest that the ego is “only thought”. The spirit is actually a combination of all aspects of ourselves, that is related to thought, emotion and divine soul (or essence of heart). Hence the phrase (for example), a “tortured spirit”, a “beautiful soul”. Such phrases imply that one has to have “experience” in the first instance, in order to “develop a spiritual soul” in the first place. Meaning, that the spiritual aspects of our being (our souls in essence), survive well beyond the physical shedding of our bodies. I believe that spirit and soul are synonymous, interchangeable and that both are basically the same forms of divine essence or being. I believe that souls or spirits, evolve into higher beings with the accumulation of wisdom, knowledge and love I like what you write curious, but I have to concede that with metaphysical type of discussions, one has to be very careful with what they say. I don’t think that there is a difference in interpretation with what you are trying to say, because at the end of your discussions, I can only but agree with you about “the spirit or soul” being eternal and never-ending and possibly without a beginning. It only leads us to “when was that beginning?". 3) “When you are thinking, you are egoic, not spiritual. as a Human you have to exist with ego, it is ego that has kept us alive”. - Again here, I disagree with you, because I think it is our souls or spirit, that keep us “alive”. It is the spirit after all, that makes us strong. The ego is blind in the sense that it is concerned only with “status like values” associated with the material world. The spirit or soul is actually the stronger part of “ourselves” and in essence, I think that is what you are actually trying to say. Correct me if I am wrong. The ego feeds the conscious only, not the sub or supra-conscious. The Ego is weaker than both soul and spirit. A lot of people are confused about this, the ego is but a mask-like appearance (if you want to use an analogy), on the veil that is the physical body. Second Post – Curious 1) “It doesn't exist to evolve Humans, humans exist to evolve it”. - I agree with this lovely statement here. Best wishes to you and all others, Wisegirl33 Sent on the 4March 2008 at 331am Aest One edit - 4Mar08 at 350am Aest [Edited 3/3/2008 9:49:05 AM]
3/3/2008 10:07:07 AM	Does a soul preceed self-awarness...?
curiousone2 Springfield, IL age: 41 online now!	Wise girl, I think we are both hitting on, when the tao says it cannot be defined, this works on many levels, because as you see, we agree and disagree at the same time,lol 1) “Self awareness implies self, and that means that it is in physical form.” - when I am referring to self, I am NOT talking about the higher consciousness self, or the soul, I was referring to the egoic self. which is the part of you, that holds the memory, the experiences, I may be completely wrong, but the difference that I see, between what you are saying, and what I am saying is, I hear you saying that emotions, are spirit, and that is not what I believe at all. emotions have a story behind them. you can feel compassionate and not BE compassionate. compassion, or Love, or empathy even can be something you feel, AND a way of being. - What you have implied here with regard to these two hyphenated words, “self-awareness”; is a simplistic literal translation only, which only includes a physical “understanding of oneself”. But the true meaning of the words, “self-awareness”, can include so many more interpretations,..…. The Id, the ego and the unconscious for example (a psychological perspective); but the true meaning of the term “self-awareness” is to encompass all of these aspects of our being, the physical, the cognitive and the emotional, to name a few….So, I disagree that it only refers to a physical understanding and awareness of “our-selves”. This is far to narrow. I agree, I should have said egoic self awareness perhaps? 2) “The ego is concerned with knowledge, and it is the ego that accumulates or even has thought, the soul is not thought, the soul is spirit”. I do not believe that the “soul is entirely spirit”, but I agree with you when you suggest that the ego is “only thought”. The spirit is actually a combination of all aspects of ourselves, that is related to thought, emotion and divine soul (or essence of heart). Hence the phrase (for example), a “tortured spirit”, a “beautiful soul”. Such phrases imply that one has to have “experience” in the first instance, in order to “develop a spiritual soul” in the first place. I believe that spirit and soul are synonymous, interchangeable and that both are basically the same forms of divine essence or being. I think the soul is the spirit with which we experience what we interact with, I think it at least VERY similar to empathy ,although since every single spiritual leader has been unable to explain exactly what it is, I don't think I have much hope. since it is true, since it came through all of them, to all of us, and NO One has been able to do it yet, except to another that already undertsand s it, and through riddles? I think we are on the same page ,lol I like what you write curious, but I have to concede that with metaphysical type of discussions, one has to be very careful with what they say. I don’t think that there is a difference in interpretation with what you are trying to say, because at the end of your discussions, I can only but agree with you about “the spirit or soul” being eternal and never-ending and possibly without a beginning. It only leads us to “when was that beginning?". Now wise one, I know that you know enough about Eastern thought to understand the concept that it is a circle, with nobeginning or ending, we cannot conceive it because we cannot conceive nothing** 3) “When you are thinking, you are egoic, not spiritual. as a Human you have to exist with ego, it is ego that has kept us alive”. - Again here, I disagree with you, because I think it is our souls or spirit, that keep us “alive”. It is the spirit after all, that makes us strong. The ego is blind in the sense that it is concerned only with “status like values” associated with the material world. The spirit or soul is actually the stronger part of “ourselves” and in essence, I think that is what you are actually trying to say. Correct me if I am wrong. The ego feeds the conscious only, not the sub or supra-conscious. The Ego is weaker than both soul and spirit. A lot of people are confused about this, the ego is but a mask-like appearance (if you want to use an analogy), on the veil that is the physical body. Are you saying it is the spirit that makes life worth living? or that in the absence of spirit we would die? No I am not saying that at all, The ego is the little voice in your head, that tells you what you are/ should be (according to the ego) be feeling, I am saying that the spirit must be stronger because the ego is consciously trying to convince the spirit to see things IT's way.IT is what the ego is driving, therefore it is the spirit that has control, but it is like water, it doesn't have form because it IS experiencing it doesn't HAVE experience, It is the ego that defines things, so the physical brain can proccess it in physical terms, that is also what the tao means when it says it cannot be defined, because as soon as it is defined, ( an experience) it takes on the context that the ego assigns it. the spirit is ambiguous, so while it can guide egoic self, it cannot destroy egoic self, because clearly, the spiritual self needs the egoic self, if for no other reason that to ensure it's survival. The egoic self says I am hungry, I am thirsty, I am bored, I whatever it is, that isn't spiritual, the ego controls, it, all things physical are not of the spirit. they have to balance, and the greater the excess the harder it is to stay spiritual, that is why faiths askt heir leaders to shed their earthly posessions, and the bible says ( jesus said) It is easier to pass a camel through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven, it isn't because he is evil, it is because he values wealth over spirit. not emotion, spirit, spirit, is NEVER self serving. 1) “It doesn't exist to evolve Humans, humans exist to evolve it”. - I agree with this lovely statement here. Best wishes to you and all others, Wisegirl33 Sent on the 4March 2008 at 331am Aest Shalom to you, wise girl. and everyone else too [Edited 3/3/2008 10:14:46 AM]
3/3/2008 10:22:14 AM	Does a soul preceed self-awarness...?
wisegirl33 Queensland Australia age: 43	Curious - 1) "Now wise one, I know that you know enough about Eastern thought to understand the concept that it is a circle, with no beginning or ending, we cannot conceive it because we cannot conceive nothing" - I guess this statement could be debatable, but you should know from reading and responding to most of my discussions after all this time, that I do not usually (sometimes I do..), write from or give my own personal opinion. I try to write with the attempt to be analytical with the material presented in front of me. Again, the argument itself is rhetorical isn't it ? And that is why it a metaphysical question in the first place, because, we may never come to any conclusion in our own life-times. 2) "Are you saying it is the spirit that makes life worth living? or that in the absence of spirit we would die?" - Yes - both. I do believe that ones spirit can be depleted through many negative experiences and that when this happens, we can quite literally die much sooner than if we had received more positive and uplifting ones (ie., die of broken hearts etc...). But I totally agree with your response as stated here... Meta-physics, what would we do without it - we certainly wouldn't ponder anymore would we ? Take care Curious. wisegirl33 Sent on the 4Mar08 at 422am Aest
3/3/2008 10:54:04 AM	Does a soul preceed self-awarness...?
curiousone2 Springfield, IL age: 41 online now!	wise girl, I agree with you, and I don't agree with you, and here is why, I am a CNA, and I have actually watched people WILL themselves to die. I watched one woman do it in about 2 weeks. she literally l;ost the will to die. here is the way I witnessed the proccess, obviously from an out side view, therefore a personal opinion of what actually happend, but this is how I witnessed it. she broke her hip. and she had to go to a nursing home for convalescence. In her mind her body had failed her, her family had failed her, and the world had failed her. Had she done the work needed to get back up, she would have recovered easily in no more than a month. in fact it was estimated originally that it would only take her 2 weeks. She started out devastated because her body failed her, then her family didn't come visit because she didn't want to be there, it was a nursing home, gross, and she became miserable and who wants to be around miserable, especially when they wont even help themselves, so she refused to work, when I say work, I am referring to walking, in fact she insisted we do more and more for her, When we tried to refuse because she was getting worse not better, she complained we were being mean to HER. so she did less. it took no time at all, before the family was gone, the CNAs were gone, because it is your livelihood and she is trying to get them fired. the administration doesn't want to go out of their way for her because they already spend to much time dealing with her and it takes away from people that really DO want help. it was about a month and she was dead, she died in her sleep one night, relatively healthy, with a broken hip??? what I actually saw, was her egoic self, run amuck. it was I ,I, I, poor me, she put her LIFE up on a giant cosmic test, and all of the loyalty she thought she had cultivated, and she thought she didn't get, over rode her spirit. the spirit can only be expected to stay around so long before it says whew, this is a hopeless cause and I can do MORE damage here than good, there is no point, I can do better work elsewhere. I see the egoic self kill the spirit, with hoplessness, and depression. and those are states of HELL. Heaven is the opposite. every thing works for the best. the best is the way, the truth, the light, the tao.God, spirit, higher consciousness, the God of Isaac, Abraham, and Jesus, and Mihammed and Buddha, spiritual people, that thought of others before them selves, taught compassion, love, MERCY, and acceptance. On the flip side of that, I have watched 2 women live for decades longer than they should have, with cancer, because they were rich in spirit. It works both ways.
3/3/2008 4:58:40 PM	Does a soul preceed self-awarness...?
burnkitty Fayetteville, AR age: 32	Alright, Curious and Wise, if a body had no soul, would the body die? Insects as an example contain a neural core which give them their survival instincts. But they do not have a left or right cerebellem. They effectively do not even know they are alive. When you swat at a fly it may leave and then return five seconds later because it doesn't know why it left in the first place. It cannot contemplate, "What am I?" even if it may contain energy of its' own. If a body has no soul, then how do you believe that would change its' state?
3/3/2008 9:29:01 PM	Does a soul preceed self-awarness...?
curiousone2 Springfield, IL age: 41 online now!	Alright, Curious and Wise, if a body had no soul, would the body die? Insects as an example contain a neural core which give them their survival instincts. But they do not have a left or right cerebellem. They effectively do not even know they are alive. When you swat at a fly it may leave and then return five seconds later because it doesn't know why it left in the first place. It cannot contemplate, "What am I?" even if it may contain energy of its' own. If a body has no soul, then how do you believe that would change its' state? Im not sure a body can have NO soul. Im not sure that the soul isn't the enrgy that is within every cell. It may be that is what is happening when one is brain dead? but see, I think that is an awesome question, because that could explain the difference . If some one is brain dead, perhaps it is the soul that is left, the brain controls the ego. the soul??? who knows, maybe it is the energy that is in the cells? Does a brain stem have a soul? right to lifers would no doubt say yes, they did with Terry Schaivo, OR are we literally just pumping blood through a body at that point? Is the consciousness similar to an inanimate object then? like a tree? or is it like a created object, like a desk? does it proccess anything at all? other than blood and oxygen and food? Maybe the lesson in that, is patience? or acceptance? terry Sciavo at least got the world thinking about consciousness, even if it was a huge waste of PUBLIC funds whent ere are starving and dying people out there, and Hurricane katrina could have been either averted by fixing the levies instead of wasting our time worrying about that. I think it is a good question anyway
3/4/2008 3:05:41 AM	Does a soul preceed self-awarness...?
wisegirl33 Queensland Australia age: 43	Curious, I wrote previously....(and quoted you ..) 2) "Are you saying it is the spirit that makes life worth living? or that in the absence of spirit we would die?" My response: .....Yes - both. Enough said ? Seems not. Then you posted reasons why this woman had lost her sense of wanting to live (ie., "spirit") and therefore died, despite apparently only having a hip problem. I am truly at a loss to see how you could have replied back to me that you "disagreed" with point (2). I could only but agree with you and still (agree) with you. Your words show me (and that story), that you agree with me. I do not see any clarity or logic with what you have written at all, because you have actually "agreed" with me - as I did you, in the first instance. I am not going to write further to "pick these facts out for you". But just to say at this time, that in order to preserve my respect for you, that I will not respond back further to what appears to be a rhetorical playground of nonsense words that are actually starting to NOT MAKE any sense at this time ...(from you). Most of all, I would like to post upon a thread where I am not followed around by people, who feel compelled to use what is left of their own ego in order to prove something that they don't actually have. And that, is enough said from me. Last post from me on this thread. wisegirl33 - Sent on the 4thMar08 at 906pm Aest
3/4/2008 5:32:28 AM	Does a soul preceed self-awarness...?
stringsvrs Syracuse, NY age: 51	Happy Tuesday Morning Sisters and Brothers All Brother Burn asked : If a body had no soul, would the body die? When information was being trickled to the public on the advancements of Cloning; This was one of the thoughts that I entertained often. Although the cloning was only for animals I imagined the scientists to soon develop human clones. How could temptation be resisted to Not Take the Next Step? My personal insight believes that the soul and spirit are intertwined; That with assistance the human form can exist yet, Will not be able to function of its own accord without one of the other present. Induces the thought of a human robot/android. The Value and Quality of life is where our determinations lie as a social structure. Also, the Morals and Virtues of the soul/spirit. How will these 4 items be evolved in the soul or spirit to achieve the desired effect of Peace and Love for the betterment of mankind? Have a blessed day
3/4/2008 12:16:29 PM	Does a soul preceed self-awarness...?
curiousone2 Springfield, IL age: 41 online now!	wise girl, I was agreeing with you, I was saying that it works both ways, that beeing por in spirit can kill you or heal you, I must not have said it very well. I was trying to point out the flip side of the coin, not claim any knowledge as mine, obviously if it is true, it is NOT mine, Im not sure where yout hink my ego was engaged, but It was not my intention. I was trying to point out the flip side of the coin, and that IS why I did it with a true story. because I have witnessed it, and then again, I have seen people that should be dead, live for decades on seemingly spirit alone. I wasn't being adversarial at all, I must have worded things poorly to make you think I was, not my intention at all.
3/4/2008 12:22:44 PM	Does a soul preceed self-awarness...?
curiousone2 Springfield, IL age: 41 online now!	Strings, I think that is right as well. I think the 2 components are egoic consciousness, and or the spiritual consciousness. Do you think autism could be a spiritual being devoid of egoic consciousness? and do you think that a coma, is the absence os spiritual consciousness? Is brain dead literally just pushing blood through the veins? running the machine with amachine? a body devoid of both? spirit and ego? and skunk was saying somewhere else, that we are coming up with new ways to measure brain activity, etc, is that the spirit thatw e are seeing? or the ego? or both? I wonder if there is a way that we can measure other energy within us. do you know of any? does anyone know of any?
3/4/2008 7:48:42 PM	Does a soul preceed self-awarness...?
stringsvrs Syracuse, NY age: 51	Happy Tuesday Evening Sisters and Brothers All Sister Curious, you have asked some very nice questions in regards to my post. Have me intrigued with thought over them and so, I must search my soul for perspective of these matters Do you think autism could be a spiritual being devoid of egoic consciousness? Because All Things are possible I must say Yes. However, people with Autism vary in the degree of the trait. I work with individuals with this diagnosis once a week, Some of the people respond extremely well when praised for their accomplishments and strive to do better at the tasks requested of them. This signifies that ego is engaged on a conscious level. But does it affect the spiritual consciousness level? They all seem so innocent to begin with, And do you think that a coma, is the absence of spiritual consciousness? I believe that when a person is comatose that their spirit and soul has detached their self from the human vessel. All that remains is electric energy; Leaving a vessel for the induction of spiritual/soul implantation. That the same spirit/soul may be refused to the vessel falls into the realm of All Things Are Possible. Is brain dead literally just pushing blood through the veins? running the machine with a machine? a body devoid of both? spirit and ego? In consideration of both the above responded answers; All Things Are Possible. In certain situations this is the case. Who determines them and if their determination is always questionable I believe. I could not ever make this determination. and skunk was saying somewhere else, that we are coming up with new ways to measure brain activity, etc, is that the spirit that we are seeing? or the ego? or both? I lean more toward electric energy. And then again, I would not stand firm on this assumption if it came to a choice of unhooking the machine. Personally, I would not want this on myself if I were comatose. I wonder if there is a way that we can measure other energy within us. do you know of any? does anyone know of any? I am confident that scientists work endlessly towards achieving the means in this field of study. Perhaps they already have the means available and have not released any of the data to the public yet. In Peace and Love
3/4/2008 10:33:06 PM	Does a soul preceed self-awarness...?
curiousone2 Springfield, IL age: 41 online now!	strings, If I believed in coincidence I would say what a coincidence that I asked you that question and you deal with autism?? that is serendipity?? we don't think of animals as disengaged, and they live in a state of grace, jesus tells us to be like the animals, what would a soul stripped of ego look like to us egoic people? they would look disconnected from the physical world, so since each sense is a different consciousness, couldn't this also count for the savant type behavior, since one that is say egoic in tactile consciousness, they would become what would look to us like almost obsessed with texture, and isn't there a sort of group for each sense regarding autism? so that say one might be auditory and tactile affected, and not hearing, or sight? and wouldn't this also suggest that overloading the deficient senses while limiting or completely disallowing the dominant ones, might balance the senses ? do you know if this has been studied? or tried? as a treatment? like in Rain man, he would have been a visual savant because he was proficient at order, and it was visual, same with the mathmatician guy they did the movie about, and the musical ones, arent they almost blind in some cases? just curious,lol

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