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You say pseudoscience, I say philosophy.
We've reached a stalemate.
Drake equation or not... and I don't give a f**k what you say. The universe is simply oo vast to contain only these nasty critters we're stuck dealing with known as humans.
I know it, YOU know it... we're not talking about your odds at winning blackjack, we're talking near infinte odds... this is fact, not imagination.
9/28/2011 4:21:52 PM |
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brock_hardwood
Fairfield, CA
43, joined Jun. 2010
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"Evolution works very slowly." -> Cambrian explosion.
The Cambrian explosion IS an example of rapid evolution, but in order for it to be an example of evolution that invalidates my original point (man hasn't significantly changed in reasoning abilities within the last 10,000 years) the conditions for it must be the same.
First, we need to take the time to understand why the Cambrian explosion(as well as other examples of punctuated equilibrium) took place in the first place.
Accumulation of Genetic Variation
With every generation, species accumulate genetic variation. Most variation is trivial, some is detrimental, and occasionally some provide a very real advantage. However, the status of the variation is ALWAYS subject to the environment. The accumulation of that variation is slow and arduous and typically doesn't find significant representation within a population unless it provides a present advantage over many generations.
Darwin illustrated genetic diversity very well in the first chapter of his book "On the Origin of Species." Prior to discussing natural selection, he talked about artificial selection. All modern dogs today come from wolves. From within the wolf population, all of the genetic diversity necessary to produce every breed of dog today from the great Dane to Dachshund exits. However, wolves still look like wolves. The reason is simple, the particular collection of attributes most wolves share are the best for its environment.
Rapid Change
What drove rapid change in genetic frequency (which genes variations were more common) was a change in which ones were more beneficial. That occurred by changes in the environment. A collection of attributes that are suited for one environment are not necessarily suited for another... IE a desert environment to a temperate environment, changing vegetation or food sources, etc. These events occur often slowly over time but sometimes they can happen very rapidly.
Fortunately, the slow accumulation of variation prepares populations for this. Many die out and many are replaced, but the tools for survival often exist within the population already. New competitive advantages take hold. New species arrive.
Why your argument is inapplicable
No punctuated equilibrium event has taken place in recent times. Bottom line is that we haven't changed significantly in the last 10,000 years. We have changed some, but nothing outside of normal, slow-going evolution.
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9/28/2011 5:35:39 PM |
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brock_hardwood
Fairfield, CA
43, joined Jun. 2010
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"The pyramids: It doesn't take a degree in rocket science to figure out how to stack heavy rocks onto heavy rocks or to move rocks from one place to another" -> you're correct, it requires a firm understanding of architecture and physics. Nothing requires a degree except employment oppertunities. Although the pyramids and shitloads of other ancient structures still can't be replicated today, logs or no logs, lifting some of the structures into place would have required access to equipment they simply didn't have, not only that but the way in which some of the stones are fused together or cut is completely beyond contemporary methods. There is definate mystery in this realm and some of the strongest evidence for the wild claims at hand.
However I agree completely that advanced beings create advanced structures. But these types of structures aren't meant for office work or as domiciles, they are more like memorials or monuments in most cases, very much like what you see in the contemorary world. And stone is also one of the few things economically ideal for making something which will last for many millenia, and that very much indicates who or what ever built those structures wanted them around for some reason. I don't know about you but I don't care how much someone believes in gods or living deities, you don't build massive monuments as a grave, your slaves would sooner die than serve that purpose, and your jailors would have been over thrown. But still there is no reason to think it was aliens just yet.
There is no reason to think it is aliens at all. NONE!
Architecture
First and foremost, if you want to build a tall structure that reaches "the gods," the pyramid is the SIMPLEST structure to build. Each larger layer beneath serves as the foundation for the one on top of it. It also serves as the scaffolding for the next layer of construction.
Physics
There are three basic problems that need to be overcome in order to build the pyramids. Cutting the stones, moving the stones, and lifting the stones.
Cutting the stones and shaping them were well withing the technological capabilities of the time.
Moving the stones is a little bit harder, but not out of the realm of possible when you have enough people, a river, and a few logs or perhaps even carts...These people were just a smart as us. They were quite capable of figuring things out. Ask yourself this:
If you were tasked with moving the stones and had a month or two to think about it, do you think you could come up with something that works given the labor you had available?? Of course you could.
The hardest part is lifting the stones, but even that isn't all that daunting. In reality, you only have to lift the stones as high as the stones are tall (near the bottom they are about 6 ft tall, at the top, they are about 2 ft tall). Once again, if you were tasked with figuring that simple task out, do you think you could do it? Of course you could.
Reason???
Why build them anyway? At least from an Alien Astronaut's point a view....Perhaps they pointed to their home? Probably not, since many of the pyramid structures around the world symbolize different constellations. There is really no way of knowing, but I did want to make it clear that the construction is generally DIFFERENT around the globe. It is easy to see they are all pyramids, but a little less obvious that they are each unique.
It is far more rational to realize that they were build by different groups of humans, not the aliens....lol
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9/28/2011 6:11:34 PM |
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brock_hardwood
Fairfield, CA
43, joined Jun. 2010
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And I should have stopped there, but just let me say the last two paragraphs you wrote are complete shit.. come on with those figures, you pulled that straight out of your a** and you know it. But good show man, good to see I'm not the only super geek around.
Actually, the 3.5 billion years of evolution is supported in the fossil record. Common descent is supported by much more evidence than that. Some of the best evidence, namely endogenous retrovirus data within the DNA, has only recently come on to the scene within the last 15 years and is overwhelming evidence of common descent to say the least.
As for One million space traveling civilizations....That was based on an optimistic view of the Drake Equation, but it is absolutely a guess...The 200 billion stars in the milky way is an estimate from astronomy. Even if I guessed a 100 million civilizations in the galaxy that all traveled to the stars, we would still be looking at a best case scenario of a 1 in 2,000 chance of stumbling on our planet. Still, it is a guess. Who knows. I don't. But I do say it for one important reason...My point is that we are a needle in a haystack. There may be ways of improving the odds of finding a habitable planet, but at best, it just decreases the size of the haystack.
I should say this too about the Drake Equation...There are some estimates that suggest we might be the only one in our galaxy or that there may only be 2 or 3 more out there in the sea of 200 billion possible destinations...The Drake Equation is certainly interesting and you probably know about it already, but if not...check it out and google it. Good stuff.
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10/1/2011 1:50:18 PM |
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spacelazorz
Elkhart, IN
36, joined Aug. 2011
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I love your optimism. I'm not so sure it is warranted, but who knows? lol
I'm going to take your response one piece at a time...
Mathematical calculation is NOT evidence, it is at best, analysis of evidence. This leaves us with one question: What is the evidence?
Why are you willing to accept the unverifiable claims of visitation based on the sheer numbers of claims, yet equally unwilling to accept the unverifiable claims of being touched by god by an even larger number of witnesses?
Take more than just a few minutes to think about that.
I don't need but a second. I don't accept any unvarified claims what-so-ever. Obviously you weren't paying very close attention to what I wrote.
As for mathematical calculation being evidence, you're wrong. But I don't recall ever saying that it was either. I will say this though, almost every theory was confirmed into law by way of physical experimentation backed up (and set up) by mathematical calculations.
Now you can trash all over the laws of physics if you like, but you can't trash on math. It's undebunkable, consistent, rock solid. Any imbicile can figure that out. It's logic by definition.
As for the claims of people being touched by god, I've yet to even see a person explain what that means, and even my mother and brother make such retarded claims and when questioned simply say "they can't explain".
You're talking about comparing cases of actual evidence, with cases of obvious insanity. Apples and lead paint friend, they're not even in the same realm. I'm sorry though that you haven't figured out even that much about life though. It's like seeing a 40yr old who still thinks there is a chance that santa might be real.
And to confirm, I don't believe that ancient aliens came to earth, the sources of the supposed evidence itself comes from narcassistic dishonest delusional people to begin with, don't put too much stock into that show, it's just a money scheme.
I think it's possible, and that much of the worlds mysteries could be easily explained by such, but the math doesn't lie, the science doesn't lie, and there is enough evidence of which I haven't bothered to share here that shows that pretty clearly.
But these are my personal opinions, and unless you have something truly interesting to say than I'm not interested in you trying to change them.
But I'll lay out the very simple rules for you to consider:
#1 The universe is vast and natural, and nothing could, would, or did create it.
#2 The universe is so vast and evolution so natural that intelligent life actually capable of intersteller travel at a resonable rate of time is as likely as me getting married to a 10 tomorrow.
I guess this is what I would call a gut instinct, or a head instinct. It's all about odds, there is no question intelligent life occured somewhere else in the cosmos... we're here aren't we? Don't be so arrogant to think you're the only one.
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10/1/2011 1:56:45 PM |
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spacelazorz
Elkhart, IN
36, joined Aug. 2011
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There is no reason to think it is aliens at all. NONE!
There is no reason to think it couldn't have been either.
For someone so obviously aware of scientific methods, you sure to lack imagination and also seem awfully confused about my position on the subject.
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10/2/2011 8:09:39 PM |
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brock_hardwood
Fairfield, CA
43, joined Jun. 2010
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I don't need but a second. I don't accept any unvarified claims what-so-ever. Obviously you weren't paying very close attention to what I wrote.
As for mathematical calculation being evidence, you're wrong. But I don't recall ever saying that it was either. I will say this though, almost every theory was confirmed into law by way of physical experimentation backed up (and set up) by mathematical calculations.
Now you can trash all over the laws of physics if you like, but you can't trash on math. It's undebunkable, consistent, rock solid. Any imbicile can figure that out. It's logic by definition.
As for the claims of people being touched by god, I've yet to even see a person explain what that means, and even my mother and brother make such retarded claims and when questioned simply say "they can't explain".
You're talking about comparing cases of actual evidence, with cases of obvious insanity. Apples and lead paint friend, they're not even in the same realm. I'm sorry though that you haven't figured out even that much about life though. It's like seeing a 40yr old who still thinks there is a chance that santa might be real.
And to confirm, I don't believe that ancient aliens came to earth, the sources of the supposed evidence itself comes from narcassistic dishonest delusional people to begin with, don't put too much stock into that show, it's just a money scheme.
I think it's possible, and that much of the worlds mysteries could be easily explained by such, but the math doesn't lie, the science doesn't lie, and there is enough evidence of which I haven't bothered to share here that shows that pretty clearly.
But these are my personal opinions, and unless you have something truly interesting to say than I'm not interested in you trying to change them.
But I'll lay out the very simple rules for you to consider:
#1 The universe is vast and natural, and nothing could, would, or did create it.
#2 The universe is so vast and evolution so natural that intelligent life actually capable of intersteller travel at a resonable rate of time is as likely as me getting married to a 10 tomorrow.
I guess this is what I would call a gut instinct, or a head instinct. It's all about odds, there is no question intelligent life occured somewhere else in the cosmos... we're here aren't we? Don't be so arrogant to think you're the only one.
It seems obvious now that neither one of us read what the other wrote very carefully. So let me list what I think we agree on, after taking the time to read your other posts.
1. The Ancient aliens theory is most likely garage.(trivial or bogus evidence)
2. Intelligent life somewhere else in the universe is likely.(Drake equation, although many coefficients are unknown)
3. God does not exist.(I killed him! lol)
4. We don't need to invent alternative ridiculous theories to explain our own existence.(Biology, evolutionary theory, and research into the study of abiogenesis)
5. You are not getting married to a 10 tomorrow. (Just a little bit of humor for you! lol)
As for math being or not being evidence...It would appear that we are simply arguing over the definition of the word "evidence." I think we probably agree here as well, but didn't realize it earlier. My position is exactly what I stated earlier. "Evidence" in general terms is the observations or the data, nothing more or less. Some evidence can easily be described by mathematical formulas, but strictly speaking, the formulas themselves are not the evidence. They are called laws and if they are ever contradicted by evidence, the would need to be modified or abandoned.
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10/3/2011 12:29:31 PM |
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brock_hardwood
Fairfield, CA
43, joined Jun. 2010
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I think we agree on most things(as I stated in my previous post), so while my response is to you, it is also meant for others to read as well. Some of my explanations are probably unnecessary if I were just talking to you, so don't interpret them as a challenge to you. I simply want to ensure that all that read it will understand the points made.
There is no reason to think it couldn't have been either.
For someone so obviously aware of scientific methods, you sure to lack imagination and also seem awfully confused about my position on the subject.
That is true. There is no reason to think it couldn't have been. My statement: "There is no reason to think it is aliens at all. NONE!" Doesn't imply that at all. My statement simply means that there isn't sufficient evidence to justify an outrageous theory(IE ancient aliens theory, etc) in the first place. That does not mean it can't be true. That statement would require proof on my part as well.
This isn't about creativity or imagination. Facts lead to hypothesis, not the other way around. It simply isn't good enough to make up a hypothesis strictly from imagination, and then quest to find things that support it. That leads to pseudoscience. That leads to "wishful interpretations" of facts that have far better explanations and more rational conclusions. We have seen that in great abundance with the Ancient Aliens Theory, ghost hunters, and the like. In terms of a "God-Did-It theory" I like to explain it this way to christian missionaries when they come to my door..."Imagine waking up in the middle of a field with amnesia, that is, no memory of anything you currently know...What would be the evidence of god's existence and how would you conclude the nature of that god? The point of the question is to challenge the idea that the bible is a valid source of information in the first place, by pointing out that evidence doesn't point to it at all or any other holy book for that matter. I then talk about naturalistic explanations which DO have physical objective evidence, and that not understanding something does not lead to any conclusion.
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10/5/2011 12:20:33 PM |
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spacelazorz
Elkhart, IN
36, joined Aug. 2011
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It simply isn't good enough to make up a hypothesis strictly from imagination, and then quest to find things that support it. That leads to pseudoscience.
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10/5/2011 12:25:12 PM |
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spacelazorz
Elkhart, IN
36, joined Aug. 2011
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(this post has been flagged as inappropriate, sorry.)
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10/8/2011 1:27:01 PM |
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brock_hardwood
Fairfield, CA
43, joined Jun. 2010
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Here's the limitations.
God doesn't exist, because what kind of c*nt makes a huge universe for a single lame a** planet full of dipshits?
Being that god does not exist, life MUST form naturally... to think earth is the only place is to be a complete f**king dipshit.
end of theory, hypothosis... whatever you call it, it's plain to understand. simple, and I'm not writing science books here, I'm making speculation about very obvious things that must be fact... if not fact... more amazing, more important, more impossible than normal truth.
punch holes in it genius. and although I take EVERYTHING as a challenge, I have respect for my competitors.
We agree that there is no god. However YOUR rationale for that conclusion is just plan stupid. (Quoting you: "God doesn't exist, because what kind of c*nt makes a huge universe for a single lame a** planet full of dipshits?") You preclude several possibilities...1) that God didn't create multiple civilizations, 2) There aren't multiple gods, each creating there own civilization, 3) That God isn't ACTUALLY a c*nt that did exactly what you said.
Your second point is almost OK, but you are still required to prove that there is no god in order for it to be valid, which you failed to do in point 1. (Quoting you: "Being that god does not exist, life MUST form naturally") A better statement would be: If life was not created, it must form naturally. But even that statement isn't the best. It precludes unconsidered alternative explanations.
Your third point, that life actually exists elsewhere, is an assertion without any evidence. (Quoting you: "life MUST form naturally... to think earth is the only place is to be a complete f**king dipshit") None of this is to say that they can't exist, just that you haven't demonstrated it. Also, it may not be as easy as you think. This planet has existed for 4.5 billion years, and yet intelligent life capable of comprehending what is necessary for space travel or communication has only existed for a little bit more than 1 million years. Furthermore, our planet isn't going to last forever. Our sun will ultimately consume us (as it becomes a red giant) in about a billion years or so. Of course, there are meteors and comets that can wipe us out as well, not to mention our own capacity to destroy ourselves. If civilizations do come into existence, they maybe very short lived.
With all that said, my worst criticism still remains: Your argument is circular logic that boils down to this:
a. The universe is filled with life-> Therefore God does not exist
b. God does not exist -> Therefore the universe is filled with life.
Point 'a' is the reason for point 'b' and point 'b' is the reason for point 'a.' Your position is just as ridiculous as religion.
[Edited 10/8/2011 1:27:45 PM ]
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10/25/2011 8:35:05 PM |
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petrojl
Cedar, MN
52, joined Aug. 2011
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Earlier quote...
No punctuated equilibrium event has taken place in recent times. Bottom line is that we haven't changed significantly in the last 10,000 years. We have changed some, but nothing outside of normal, slow-going evolution.
On this point while true, I believe that we would see significant change if/when humankind leaves the confines of Earth, mostly due to change in conditions involving gravity. While our evolution has always been at Earth's standard 1G, imagine humans born to low gravity or even zero G. While we still don't know the effects or yet if a successful birth could happen in these conditions, the change would be radically quick. If a human was born on the moon and raised there without ever touching Earth or raised to accept 1G, that person may never be able to visit Earth without becoming an invalid here. It would be in effect 7 times the gravity they were raised in. But, they would be like masters of a low gravity condition and would have a different type of body mass. Humans would have to adjust quickly. We do know that zero G causes atrophy of muscle tissue in Earth bound humans. The question is would we evolve to cope with low gravity? Or, would we always have to replicate that comfort of 1G?
Oh, and here is a copy of the Drake Equation...
N = R* fp ne fl fi fc L
where,
N = The number of communicative civilizations
R* = The rate of formation of suitable stars (stars such as our Sun)
fp = The fraction of those stars with planets. (Current evidence indicates that planetary systems may be common for stars like the Sun.)
ne = The number of Earth-like worlds per planetary system
fl = The fraction of those Earth-like planets where life actually develops
fi = The fraction of life sites where intelligence develops
fc = The fraction of communicative planets (those on which electromagnetic communications technology develops)
L = The "lifetime" of communicating civilizations
Frank Drake's own current solution to the Drake Equation estimates 10,000 communicative civilizations in the Milky Way. Dr. Drake, who serves on the SETI League's advisory board, has personally endorsed SETI's planned all-sky survey.
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10/26/2011 10:55:22 AM |
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gjlover
Grand Junction, CO
54, joined Aug. 2010
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The reason we have not evolved much in the last 10,000 years is we are pretty good at being humans and have no need to evolve physically.
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10/31/2011 6:53:50 PM |
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williamironhand
Aurora, CO
32, joined Oct. 2011
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heres a thought, what if insted of aliens makeing us smarter, what if we where the super power thousands of years ago and simply killed off most of our population some how. if we nuked ourselves right now and less than one percent survived, how much of our current history and technology do you think would survive a hundred years even. the survivors would tell stories about flying cars(airplanes),miraculus healings, and these stories would change over time to become miths told by people who have no notion what any of it was to begin with. for all we know we are stuck in a loop that never ends. rise of man fall of man rise again and fall again...
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11/19/2011 7:57:23 PM |
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blueeyeddevil7
Port Orchard, WA
47, joined Nov. 2011
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Check out the writings of Zecharia Sitchin (*12 panet, cosmic code, book of Enki etc) - it's teh BEST scholerly info on Ancient Astronaut theires, all derived directly form the (Sumerian) Cunieform Tablets.
Also check out Coast to Coast AM Radio (http://www.coasttocoastam.com/) = the worlds #2 radio show, and tehy have REGULAR shows on ancient astronaut/alien theories etc, feeaturing teh top minds in teh feild !
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11/19/2011 7:59:42 PM |
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blueeyeddevil7
Port Orchard, WA
47, joined Nov. 2011
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Is this an alien skull?
November 18, 2011 Could a strange mummified skull found in Peru be the remains of an extraterrestrial? Anthropologists are baffled by the bizarrely shaped head, which is nearly as large as its body. According to Renato Davila Riquelme of the Privado Ritos Andinos museum in Cusco, three experts who have investigated the remains conclude that it is 'not a human being.'
http://www.coasttocoastam.com/article/is-this-an-alien-skull
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11/19/2011 8:19:28 PM |
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blueeyeddevil7
Port Orchard, WA
47, joined Nov. 2011
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...and to the question of HOW ancient indiginous peoples moved large stones and created some of the worlds mysterious monuments, one need to look no further than Florida and the Coral Castle -
http://youtu.be/amXsPcD7g5g
one man built all this, and claimed to have re-discoverd the science used by the Egyptians etc.... and obvoiusly he discovered SOMETHING to be able to single-handedly build this incredible site !
...SO it is possible to make these monuments with out "Divine" intervention .
+ sorry for my spelling, I suck at spelling, ha ha.
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12/2/2011 10:45:21 PM |
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style_and_charm
Fort Worth, TX
27, joined Nov. 2011
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Erich von daniken is my inspiration.
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12/3/2011 11:14:31 PM |
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jaysnewports
Reading, PA
40, joined Oct. 2011
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Interesting topic...
I saw something that suggests that the drawings of the Incas with ancient astronauts could have been time travelers.
Time travelers is another compelling topic!
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12/4/2011 6:20:52 PM |
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duchessa
Yonkers, NY
64, joined Aug. 2008
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Interesting topic...
I saw something that suggests that the drawings of the Incas with ancient astronauts could have been time travelers.
Time travelers is another compelling topic!
You are talking about the Nazca Lines.
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12/4/2011 6:27:34 PM |
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duchessa
Yonkers, NY
64, joined Aug. 2008
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12/7/2011 7:28:41 PM |
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anddyyy
Rupert, WV
25, joined Dec. 2011
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wow! i finally found someone who thinks like me! lol! it would make so much more sense if he was and alien. think about it every time they discused about flying chariots that would totally answer it . then i rember when i was about 8 years old the preacher didnt say that when joana was swalowed by the whale that their was bronze lining in the whale . i never understood until a year ago. it was a U.S.O. unidentified submerged object. which that makes more sense. lol! i hope to talk to u later.
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12/8/2011 8:31:28 PM |
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duchessa
Yonkers, NY
64, joined Aug. 2008
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@ anddyyy
Welcome to the Atheist Chat....
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12/10/2011 9:45:40 PM |
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7prolegend305
Hialeah, FL
26, joined Dec. 2011
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Ya need a miracle thats all I have to say any question about anything ask me il be here to help you out with anything peace.
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12/10/2011 9:48:05 PM |
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7prolegend305
Hialeah, FL
26, joined Dec. 2011
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Bronze lineing tell me were in the scripture of the bible you got that from
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2/19/2012 8:40:30 PM |
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thebowlingking
Columbia, MO
33, joined Nov. 2011
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mexico had a strong sense of aliens thats y they cut out each other hearts to gave to there gods back then watch that mel gisbson movie they showed that time whats the name started with a AP something i cant remember
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2/19/2012 11:54:22 PM |
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tubalcain1492
Alabaster, AL
34, joined Feb. 2012
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I have been studying the theory for many years. I think it makes a lot more sense than god created Adam and Eve blah blah blah.
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2/20/2012 2:30:35 AM |
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n8tiv3
Saint Paul, MN
39, joined Dec. 2011
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They have many name's they are all one in the same... Look into Saturn the plant!!! The things they do not talk about, and what they do talk about on the Televi;sion ? Look into symbolism, words and there terminology.
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2/20/2012 8:07:18 PM |
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himynameisrj
Sacramento, CA
30, joined Dec. 2011
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i like this group
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2/20/2012 9:40:51 PM |
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duchessa
Yonkers, NY
64, joined Aug. 2008
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mexico had a strong sense of aliens thats y they cut out each other hearts to gave to there gods back then watch that mel gisbson movie they showed that time whats the name started with a AP something i cant remember
Be a little specific here...we don't want those against the Mexicans to believe the removal of hearts takes place in present times.
The ones who removed the hearts were the Aztecs.
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2/20/2012 9:52:55 PM |
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thebowlingking
Columbia, MO
33, joined Nov. 2011
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Be a little specific here...we don't want those against the Mexicans to believe the removal of hearts takes place in present times.
The ones who removed the hearts were the Aztecs.
aztecs was what i meant but i couldnt remember how to spell it
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2/20/2012 10:23:40 PM |
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duchessa
Yonkers, NY
64, joined Aug. 2008
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aztecs was what i meant but i couldnt remember how to spell it
Don't you have spell check?
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2/21/2012 3:05:36 PM |
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krazytallblondy
Enterprise, AL
30, joined Feb. 2012
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The theory is very plausible to me. It makes more sense than anything any religion has come up with.
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2/21/2012 6:34:47 PM |
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duchessa
Yonkers, NY
64, joined Aug. 2008
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The theory is very plausible to me. It makes more sense than anything any religion has come up with.
Religion doesn't care for "sense"...it goes against the principles of manipulation and of keeping people stupid.
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