The infinite Universe

4/4/2008 11:47:48 PM	The infinite Universe
dbsuma Lakewood, OH age: 40	I really wish people would stop saying that the universe is infinite. it really isn't. The big bang blew up and all the stars and galaxies flew out into this big ball. Yes, sure it is big, very big, mind bogglingly large but it is not infinite. There are X amount of galaxies and X amount of stars, they could be counted and yes there would be an awful lot of them but any number that can be counted to, no matter how large is not infinite. The universe is in fact finite, it can be defined, Sure not by you or be or anybody who will likely read this message board to tell us exactly how many stars their actually is, but they could be counted, there are a set number of them. Oh yea, sure, while you are counting them, cause it would take such a long time, some would die and others would be born but that's besides the fact. At the present moment there IS a fixed number of galaxies and stars. and the universe is a set distance across in diameter which could be measured by some means. So please stop saying that the universe is infinite because it is NOT, it just isn't.
4/5/2008 5:45:03 PM	The infinite Universe
stedmo Phoenix, AZ age: 52	Its possible that your confusing 'matter' for the universe? space is infinite Infinite nothingness...
4/19/2008 4:19:57 PM	The infinite Universe
jela23 Saint Paul, MN age: 24	I agree with you on the infinate idea. It seems people think if we can't find the end of it then it doesn't end. I don't believe that humans will ever be able to reach the end of it before we go exstinct but I believe there is an end somewhere.
4/21/2008 2:56:01 AM	The infinite Universe
lonewolfslust Oklahoma City, OK age: 26	that is where the term becomes relevant. while the universe may have an end, we will never reach it. for all intents and purposes it is infinite, as it is unfathomably vast. if, at some point, we are able to reach the end of the universe, we will have a more accurate measurement for it's vastness. think of it in less literal terms and more as the only plausible way we have to describe it.
4/25/2008 4:37:50 AM	The infinite Universe
joyschoice North York, ON age: 54	"There are X amount of galaxies and X amount of stars, they could be counted and yes there would be an awful lot of them but any number that can be counted to, no matter how large is not infinite. " While you might be right, it is still not a proven fact that the matter produced by the big bang that created our world is the ONLY matter in infinite space. It may be, or it may not be. We don't know for sure either way, so stating one opinion (that there is a finite amount matter in the infinite space) or the other (that there is an inifinte amount of matter in the infinite space) is really meaningless. True, you have a fifty percent chance of being right, but it's still not a proof or even a basis for stating one is true (finite amount of matter) and the other one is false (infinite amount of matter.)
4/26/2008 12:54:35 AM	The infinite Universe
stedmo Phoenix, AZ age: 52	its always good to have a logical positivist in all this infinite nothingness...
5/2/2008 11:26:11 AM	The infinite Universe
stedmo Phoenix, AZ age: 52	If the doors of perception were cleansed everything would appear to man as it is, finite. —William Blake
8/17/2008 11:17:45 PM	The infinite Universe
ailve Orlando, FL age: 23	Quote from dbsuma: So please stop saying that the universe is infinite because it is NOT, it just isn't. You say this with such certainty, when the worlds top physicists are yet searching for this answer. Hence the reason NASA sent out their WMA Probe. Just because we've counted only X amount of stars, holds no water that the universe is finite. Fact of the matter is, you don't know this answer as no one does.
8/23/2008 3:49:18 PM	The infinite Universe
dbsuma Lakewood, OH age: 40	Quote from stedmo: Its possible that your confusing 'matter' for the universe? space is infinite Infinite nothingness... Is it though? If the universe was not here, would the space in between those stars that do no exist still be there? I'd tend to believe that the only reason space is defined as existing is because the universe is in it. Without matter the empty space becomes nothing, as 0 remains the value of 0. Quote from lonewolfslust: that is where the term becomes relevant. while the universe may have an end, we will never reach it. for all intents and purposes it is infinite, as it is unfathomably vast. if, at some point, we are able to reach the end of the universe, we will have a more accurate measurement for it's vastness. think of it in less literal terms and more as the only plausible way we have to describe it. Yes, I think it is more of a problem with vocabulary as well. Alexander the great set out to conquer the world, little did he know just how much larger was the world then he knew. But in some sense he did conquer the world, the known world of that day. Just as time went by the definition of the world expanded, till we realized that we are just on a little ball floating in space, amidst a huge collection of other worlds, so we needed a new word to describe everything and it became the universe, but that doesn't mean that our definition is any more accurate than Alexander the Greats definition of the world. Quote from joyschoice: While you might be right, it is still not a proven fact that the matter produced by the big bang that created our world is the ONLY matter in infinite space. Even if there was more matter in the universe than produced by OUR big bang, whatever matter may exist elsewhere in other big bangs or leftover from previous local big bangs would still be finite, large but finite. Quote from ailve: You say this with such certainty, when the worlds top physicists are yet searching for this answer. Hence the reason NASA sent out their WMA Probe. Just because we've counted only X amount of stars, holds no water that the universe is finite. Fact of the matter is, you don't know this answer as no one does. LOL, I don't think you understand what we are talking about but pretty sure I'm close to the word limit on posts, so won't expand on further explanation.
8/26/2008 2:13:43 AM	The infinite Universe
ailve Orlando, FL age: 23	Quote from dbsuma: LOL, I don't think you understand what we are talking about but pretty sure I'm close to the word limit on posts, so won't expand on further explanation. Ooo, nice response. For a guy who works in manufacturing you're pretty sure of yourself when it comes to physics. What'd you catch a couple episodes on the BBC about stars and come up with your dictation here? The universe that we know of now may be finite in that everything which exists is finite; however space, time are infinite in size, or theorized to be. The universe has been expanding for billions of years. How can you possibly make such little ignorant assumptions about it and pawn them off as factual evidence. Newton extrapolated some revolutionary theories but even he was wrong. It's your kind of thinking why man created the concept of god. Look how well that's turned out for everyone. How about we wait for people who actually do research in this field to answer these questions with time, method and documentation. If the LHC eludes the hidden particle of dark matter, that should spark some insight into the unknown. Or should we keep playing this game and pretend you're opinions are truth.
9/3/2008 9:44:54 PM	The infinite Universe
dbsuma Lakewood, OH age: 40	Quote from ailve: Ooo, nice response. For a guy who works in manufacturing you're pretty sure of yourself when it comes to physics. What'd you catch a couple episodes on the BBC about stars and come up with your dictation here? The universe that we know of now may be finite in that everything which exists is finite; however space, time are infinite in size, or theorized to be. The universe has been expanding for billions of years. How can you possibly make such little ignorant assumptions about it and pawn them off as factual evidence. Newton extrapolated some revolutionary theories but even he was wrong. It's your kind of thinking why man created the concept of god. Look how well that's turned out for everyone. How about we wait for people who actually do research in this field to answer these questions with time, method and documentation. If the LHC eludes the hidden particle of dark matter, that should spark some insight into the unknown. Or should we keep playing this game and pretend you're opinions are truth. LOL, what as delightful piece of comedic genius you have created for us. LOL, the man argues that the universe is infinite and sighting proof of this is a NASA probe counting the number of stars in his infinite universe...... LOL don't you find that a little bit of a contradiction? But again I think the problem of miscommunication is in definitions or lack there of. I am defining the Universe as the global cluster of Galaxies created out of the big bang, while you are defining the universe as the space that cluster is located in. Can we agree that the cluster if finite? Is that too much to ask? But again I argue that both space and time are the result of matter. Without matter in the universe, does the space really exist? Time is a man made measurement of chronological events, with no matter or energy in the universe or any events taking place, does time really exist in an empty universe? In both cases I'd argue no. that if you drained all the energy and matter out of the universe that the universe would not exist, by definition, granted by my definition of the universe. I'd tend to believe that the empty space around this global cluster is like an event horizon without anything on the other side and once the universe is no longer present then the space is not present either. As far as my credentials, I'm a certified genius, or at least I was before soaking my brain in beer for 14 years, now I'm merely gifted but still smarter than a good 85% of the population. I haven't watch TV in years, PBS, the BBC which we wouldn't get here or otherwise. The only use my TV set gets is from movies that I might rent or buy, which is where this post originated from. From the movie "A beautiful mind", in which the girl asks how big is the Universe. The main character answers "infinite", then she response "How do you know", he answers "I don't". But it isn't infinite. If you define the universe as the matter expelled from the big bang then it is not infinite. It can be counted. Sure not by you or me or a NASA probe but the amount of atoms, galaxies and Stars in the universe at any given time is a set number and not infinite. You want to argue that the universe is not the universe but all the space around the universe that might go on and on infinitely, which I'd argue that is not the case and even if the empty space that the universe is in does go on forever that fact is marginally irrelevant, since it is also empty. What would be really cool is if they found another one of these global clusters created by some other big bang somewhere else, then you'd have a more plausible argument but besides only one report of questionable source, no such thing has ever been found. So we are left with the idea that our "universe" (global cluster) is the only "universe" (sum of all matter), in the "universe" (empty space). That maybe that this empty space might, might, might be infinite but that matter in the global cluster is not infinite. I don't know how many times I can restate the obvious. What we really need are an expansion of vocabulary on this issue. Please don't be angry just cause you don't know what you are talking about. Just bow to my greatness and praise me as your intellectual master. [Edited 9/3/2008 9:47:38 PM]
9/4/2008 9:42:13 AM	The infinite Universe
ailve Orlando, FL age: 23	1. WMAP Probe does not count stars. Do some reading for a change. http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/ 2. All your statements are conjectures based loosely on other theories. No facts. No methodology. Just your opinions which you pass off as truth. 3. You're looking at everything in black & white. What if the universe isn't just matter or spacetime? What if everything is interwoven, which makes up the known universe? We know so little about it, yet "you know so much". Grow up, you're 40, it's about time. 4. This entire topic; I have never stated any rebuttal to your definition of the universe, or have you not noticed. This is because there are NO CONCLUSIVE REPORTS TO SUPPORT ANY RESPONSE AS FACT. The distinction between theory and factual evidence makes all the difference and you my friend are one arrogant-minded cynic. Time to open a new frame of reference and admit you are as clueless as the next. God was invented out of mankind's ignorance and fear -- an easy explanation to "understand" our environment. Our in-ability to cope with reason as it seems. Your blatant remarks exemplify this exact trait, or flaw I should say. Like I stated previously, how about we give it time before making such accusations about our existence and what makes up the universe ... or we should all just go on reading the bible. I'm done with this topic as I'm sure you are. No point regurgitating our limited knowledge any longer. Respond however you like but don't expect a response. [Edited 9/4/2008 9:44:25 AM]
9/6/2008 9:29:18 PM	The infinite Universe
dbsuma Lakewood, OH age: 40	Quote from ailve: 1. WMAP Probe does not count stars. Do some reading for a change. http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/ 2. All your statements are conjectures based loosely on other theories. No facts. No methodology. Just your opinions which you pass off as truth. 3. You're looking at everything in black & white. What if the universe isn't just matter or spacetime? What if everything is interwoven, which makes up the known universe? We know so little about it, yet "you know so much". Grow up, you're 40, it's about time. 4. This entire topic; I have never stated any rebuttal to your definition of the universe, or have you not noticed. This is because there are NO CONCLUSIVE REPORTS TO SUPPORT ANY RESPONSE AS FACT. The distinction between theory and factual evidence makes all the difference and you my friend are one arrogant-minded cynic. Time to open a new frame of reference and admit you are as clueless as the next. God was invented out of mankind's ignorance and fear -- an easy explanation to "understand" our environment. Our in-ability to cope with reason as it seems. Your blatant remarks exemplify this exact trait, or flaw I should say. Like I stated previously, how about we give it time before making such accusations about our existence and what makes up the universe ... or we should all just go on reading the bible. I'm done with this topic as I'm sure you are. No point regurgitating our limited knowledge any longer. Respond however you like but don't expect a response. OMG, I've meet people like you. Mostly girls, that state one thing then a paragraph later totally contradict themselves, like you mind is just operating on stream of consciousness and logic is just some illusion that avoids you. But I love it, seriously, I find simple confused minds easy playthings to dissect. You proudly State "All your statements are conjectures based loosely on other theories. No facts. No methodology. Just your opinions which you pass off as truth." of which I'm having a very time finding any theories or conjectures that I've presented other than the universe is not infinite. But then in the next line to dispute my alleged theorizing you launch into a grand smattering of theories of you own. "What if the universe isn't just matter or spacetime? What if everything is interwoven, which makes up the known universe?" For a person who seems so opposed to "theories and conjecture" you seem to do an awful lot of it yourself, laughably one paragraph after you have scolded me for allegedly doing so. Quote from ailve: This entire topic; I have never stated any rebuttal to your definition of the universe, or have you not noticed. This is because there are NO CONCLUSIVE REPORTS TO SUPPORT ANY RESPONSE AS FACT. OMG, this is so much fun, thankyou. OK, well you ought to rebut my definition of the universe, because without it you argument, which I'm still a little unclear on, has no basis. If you know what your argument is, you really should think about trying to present it. Personally I think that you just clicked on this link and threw out any old response and now are frantic to try and cover up the fact that you have stepped in a big pile of shit and keep trying to underline a rather confused argument, in order to cover your tracks. There is not shame in admitting that you have no idea what the hell you are talking about or that you have made an error is some sense. I know you are male and young and a extreme conviction to your own opinion is a matter of pride. But if you are totally wrong or just make no f**king sense, it doesn't make you look any more right, just more confused. Besides the point, I never knew that common logic needed "CONCLUSIVE REPORTS" to support them. I generally assumed that logic came pre-installed in every human brain. Apparently I was mistaken. [Edited 9/6/2008 9:30:37 PM]
9/6/2008 9:29:25 PM	The infinite Universe
dbsuma Lakewood, OH age: 40	Quote from ailve: there are NO CONCLUSIVE REPORTS TO SUPPORT ANY RESPONSE AS FACT. Again I'm a little confused as to what the hell you are talking about. But then again it is I that might be mistaken. I always thought that words should be arranged in a clear concise manner to present a sentence structure that might be readily understood, which those words giving meaning to one another. Though I never intended this to become a debate, I welcome it, so please do tell me as to why I would or even could offer "CONCLUSIVE REPORTS" to support your or anyone else's response as fact. It is your job to support your own response to my post, not mine, nor can I somehow psychically predict what your response might be before you have left it, and very much trouble trying to determine what it is after you have already done so. You sentence just makes no sense. Did you know that? Or are you just randomly tapping at those little buttons on your keyboard and any words that might form out of those random impacts are just a coincidence. Quote from ailve: The distinction between theory and factual evidence makes all the difference and you my friend are one arrogant-minded cynic. Time to open a new frame of reference and admit you are as clueless as the next. God was invented out of mankind's ignorance and fear -- an easy explanation to "understand" our environment. Our in-ability to cope with reason as it seems. Your blatant remarks exemplify this exact trait, or flaw I should say. Like I stated previously, how about we give it time before making such accusations about our existence and what makes up the universe ... or we should all just go on reading the bible. Well a fairly long paragraph for you, I hope you didn't have any trouble writing it. I suggest that it is you that is having a difficulty with "theory and fact", I merely stated the universe is not infinite, that there are a set number of galaxies in the universe, just as there are a set numbers of apples on any given tree. We say that the universe is infinite cause is sounds clever and people always say it, but once you logically analyze it, that assumption is blatantly false. I'm not saying that there might not be other apple trees some place else, nor that the air around the apple tree does not exist, just that the one apple tree that we happen to live in is finite. There, I hope I have dumbed it down for you enough, after all, I know you are American. But you are right about one thing, I am an arrogant cynic, so points for that at least. As for your comments on god, let us go threw it together. ailve: "God was invented out of mankind's ignorance and fear" - TRUE ailve: "an easy explanation to "understand" our environment." - TRUE ailve: "Our in-ability to cope with reason as it seems." - false DBSUMA EDIT "Our in-ability to cope with the unknown as it seems." - TRUE It was not in their inability to cope with reason they had trouble with, but factors and variables of their lives they had no control over nor understood. Reason would require some bases of understanding those things. Which came, eventually, slowly over time, piece by piece, threw the ages. And if I really do have to dumb it down again, kindergartners must first learn the alphabet before they can use it to spell words. Infants must first learn to crawl before they can walk. The gods were abstract intellectual tools of ancient man to help him understand his environment better. A working model, a poor working model but a working model none the less that was expanded on continuously until it was not longer needed. We don't need the rain god anymore because we understand how the weather works. True enough, some believed that the gods were more important than the attributes they held, since the idea of gods lasted so long and became an establishment in itself, but if anyone is cast in the role of an ancient priest it is you for insisting that I do not contradict dogma and me playing the role of the heretic. ailve: "Like I stated previously, how about we give it time before making such accusations about our existence and what makes up the universe ... or we should all just go on reading the bible." Give what time? The magical NASA information fairies to deliver us a pot of knowledge for consumer use? Our civilization is kept in place by preventing the common mans access to information and wealth, if you are trusting the same power structure to deliver that to you that also has a vested interest in keeping it from you, then you are never going to find it. And again your logic is typically backwards, it is not I who is adhering to traditional thinking, so your analogy of reading the bible is baseless, without merit and I'd suggest a poor attempt to gain support for your argument, whatever that might be, because this is the Atheist Forum. Like a priest reaching for a crucifix to keep the vampires at bey. I think it is you that are the primitive man who doesn't understand the world around him in this exchange and has to keep reaching for support from outside sources, such as NASA and Atheism, even lacking any proper counter presentation to my post. I'm not sure what you argument even is, surely not based on my words, I you sure you are responding to the right post? I mean I commend you for the attempt to joust with me, but I have plainly delivered the golden chalice to the masses, you have taken exception to this, so I brandished my blade and you drew a rubber chicken from your bag of tricks. I ask again, do you even know what the hell you are talking about or did you think that it just might be fun to post with all the "hep" intellectual atheist types and now are embarrassed that I turned your malformed suburban middle class republican America logic or lack there of, into Swiss cheese? [Edited 9/6/2008 9:33:01 PM]
9/10/2008 1:12:58 PM	The infinite Universe
stedmo Phoenix, AZ age: 52	I'd like to expand on this subject but I can see there is no finiteness to it

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