Looking for Intelligent Life in these Forums

11/21/2011 3:45:01 PM	Looking for Intelligent Life in these Forums
begbear1952 Easley, SC 65, joined Jan. 2010	In attempting to have intelligent conversations with neo-atheists in the Religion forum for the past year, I discovered that those who call themselves "atheists" there consistently lack even the most rudimentary knowledge of science. They apparently did not know what a peer reviewed article was until I told them. Once I taught them what it was, they showed that they never even heard of critiquing such an article. They didn't have the concept - it was totally alien to them. Is there really as big a gap as there appears to be between the promulgated atheist education/intelligence and the actual thing? I began to suspect that the "atheists" in the religion forum might have been just the "finished seconds" who got invited to leave this forum, so I came here to see for myself. All I've seen so far is pretty much cheap trashy religion-bashing. Is that all you guys have going on here?? Meet singles at DateHookup.dating, we're 100% free! Join now!
11/21/2011 7:54:48 PM	Looking for Intelligent Life in these Forums
umnowellmaybe Austin, TX 58, joined Nov. 2011	No! If you wait around a bit, patiently, you will find someone comes along to display an impressive knack for accusatory condescension. That's something more, and well worth waiting to see!!!
11/21/2011 9:37:57 PM	Looking for Intelligent Life in these Forums
begbear1952 Easley, SC 65, joined Jan. 2010	I see. Should I start it, just to, say, prime the pump?
11/30/2011 1:46:02 AM	Looking for Intelligent Life in these Forums
adolphjesus Ocala, FL 35, joined Nov. 2011	Ah, religious people in an atheism forum...now there's ultimate intelligence there, how about going back to your goddamn cave begbear, nobody cares about your pretentious blubberings, well, smart people anyway.
11/30/2011 1:20:28 PM	Looking for Intelligent Life in these Forums
thepanderer Laconia, NH 31, joined Nov. 2011	Begbear, something I realized a long time ago is that atheism does not constitute intellectual. You might consider atheists to be more enlightened than theists, and I'd normally agree with you, but understand that a lot of atheists came to their decision as an emotional decision- sometimes as irrationally as many theists' decision to become religious! It is frustrating, because I hope to find like-minded folk, to discuss logic and the internal fallacies of the bible. But often I'm confronted with emotional people who were shunned or hated by the church, or lost a loved one, or had some other need and started to believe that jesus/god/zeus/cthulhu wasn't doing it for them and maybe religion wasn't right. There people out there with a dedication to objective reality, with a dedication to science, independent verification, and logical consistency. These people are few and far between, in real life and online. I haven't met many people who reject religion from a logical basis. You can read my ramblings on the topic though on my blog: http://explaingod.blogspot.com
11/30/2011 2:13:38 PM	Looking for Intelligent Life in these Forums
begbear1952 Easley, SC 65, joined Jan. 2010	I appreciate the candor, Panderer. You expressed some thoughts & some suspicions that had been running through my mind for some time. What I've concluded through observation is that the underpinnings of atheism is emotion, and to a great extent, hurt and disappointment. People react to hurt and disappointment in a lot of different ways. I have no complaint about how anyone reacts to their pain & disappointment, as long as it does not cause harm or problems to anyone else. If somebody wants to wrap himself up in an Atheist Cocoon, it's no skin off my back, until he starts trying to ram his gibberish down my child's throat, then we are going to have words. Otherwise, maybe an Atheist Cocoon is what some folks need as a route of transformation, you know, caterpillar into butterfly. But I don't seem to see any transformation taking place. All I see is increasingly more angst, bitterness, and a wound that increasingly festers. If that's where somebody wants to stay, hey, that's their choice, and I can't stop them. But if they start telling me that they are more intelligent & better educated than me, at the same time they're trying to spew their own bitterness all over me, then they've just laid a topic on the table for discussion, so we'll have a discussion. But it won't be based on the World Inside the Atheist Cocoon. I don't live there, and I don't care to know what it's like in there. So anyway, enough of that rant. I came here out of curiosity, because for the past year or more, I've been listening to atheists rant over in the Religion forum. I've asked them questions, but instead of answering me they just block me, and talk behind my back about what a horrible person I am. Is that science?? It doesn't look like science to me, and I've been around a fair number of scientists doing their work. It looks to me more like a glob of unresolved emotional entanglement, and anything BUT the superior intellect, superior education, they keep claiming. So I'm just little old me, going around asking questions, because I am naturally curious. I did check out your blog, thought, and I am duly impressed. Your thought process is a welcome breath of fresh air, compared to what I've read here in these forums for a year. You laid out the facts, including your own experiences, and you raised very reasonable questions. You have obviously pressed for the answers to those questions, and having not reached an answer, you formulated your own. Some of your words were compelling, such as these: But instead of knowing that Christ was with me, I was left with a rather confused feeling. Did it work? Was I saved? Do I know Christ now? Did I do something wrong? I know the torture of those types of questions, because I had very similar questions as a teen. They can be terribly painful and confusing, and I think you did a great job of articulating them. I cannot give you an answer but I can tell you this - my dad addressed those very questions from the pulpit, because he knew that people suffered needlessly from those types of questions. So I'll leave it at this - those questions are very legitimate questions, and I respect you for asking them honestly, and especially laying them out there for everybody to see. That requires some courage. I'll tell you more, if you are interested. With the threat of hell hung above me and a set of instructions to "accept Christ" that never seemed to work for me, I was stressed, confused, and depressed. I know that feeling also. I grew up in a denomination that believed an individual's experience with God happened in the personal emotions, and when you are "right with God," the proof is in your emotions. You are happy, Wheee! In reality, that belief represents profound emotional immaturity. The mature individual does not guide his life by his feelings. My dad used to use the metaphor of the train, saying that the engine represents your thinking, and what you know. The caboose represents your feelings, and they follow along in the same path as your thinking. Years later I encountered that exact same principle in studying Rational Emotive Therapy or RET (known now as REBT, Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy) developed by pioneering psychologist Albert Ellis. So the thing that happened for me is that my science-based university studies confirmed my religious upbringing over a long period of time. This whole notion that "science disproves religion" simply is not true, not in my case anyway. I find the notion that "science disproves religion" to be extremely shallow, superficial, and profoundly emotionally immature - plus not in line with reality as most of us know it. What is true is that good science runs counter to BAD religion. What do I mean by BAD religion? Probably most of you already know, but it is extraordinarily well documented in a book by Father Leo Booth titled, "When God Becomes A Drug." Booth was a Catholic priest who admits that he used to get drunk off the power to condemn people. (I'm over-simplifying to make the point.) Booths personal journey illustrates the difference between unhealthy BAD religion and healthy happy religion that is long on forgiveness & short on condemnation. In short, Booth used to be a jerk. A sorry-@ssed jerk. A sorry-@ssed Catholic PRIEST jerk - and I've met a lot of Protestant clergy just like him. In the case of Booth and a lot of others, having a real encounter with God is not getting Shazzam'd, or zapped on the head and changed in an instant. Rather, it is a long, slow growth process, like maturing physically. Somebody unfortunately fed you a load of beans with this "instant grace" bullcrap, because, although grace is instant and eternal, the human response to it is not. It is slow and gradual. In fact, I might go so far as to say that the type of questioning you are doing fits very well with my understanding of how God works in an individual. I'll bet that if I met some of your peers who were boo-hooing at the altar, none of them would have as much depth and intellectual integrity as you do. What is it to be sorry enough? This question would torture me for a good portion of my childhood. That is an agonizing question, and I don't even want to go there right now. I will say, however, thanks for your honesty, and thanks for directing me to your blog. I appreciate the mental hard work you are doing, and I'd be glad for the change for some intellectual exchange with you any time. You da man.
11/30/2011 2:59:36 PM	Looking for Intelligent Life in these Forums
thepanderer Laconia, NH 31, joined Nov. 2011	Thanks for checking out my blog. Maybe I'm not understanding you properly, but from the looks of what you wrote, it seems you're trying to characterize atheism as being upset with jesus. I want to clarify that this is not what atheism is- only that my experience with trying to find other like minded intellectuals has turned up a lot of misguided atheists. It seems to me, despite your profile stating atheist, that you believe in god, or are searching for the answers to the type of questions I posed on my blog. The questions I posed were to demonstrate the harmful and damaging qualities of religion, and what caused me to start asking the real questions. Make no mistake, I no longer ask those questions. Given the context of what I've learned since my de-conversion, I find those questions to be nonsensical.
12/1/2011 12:23:18 AM	Looking for Intelligent Life in these Forums
begbear1952 Easley, SC 65, joined Jan. 2010	Quote from thepanderer: Thanks for checking out my blog. My pleasure. Maybe I'm not understanding you properly, but from the looks of what you wrote, it seems you're trying to characterize atheism as being upset with jesus. I was expressing essential agreement with this statement of yours: a lot of atheists came to their decision as an emotional decision It seems to me, despite your profile stating atheist, that you believe in god I lied. The questions I posed were to demonstrate the harmful and damaging qualities of religion, and what caused me to start asking the real questions. It demonstrates the harmful and damaging qualities of UNHEALTHY religion - which apparently you have never had the privilege of observing. Make no mistake, I no longer ask those questions. Given the context of what I've learned since my de-conversion, I find those questions to be nonsensical. Regardless of how you want to label those questions, they are destructive & harmful. [Edited 12/1/2011 12:23:36 AM ]
12/1/2011 12:29:43 AM	Looking for Intelligent Life in these Forums
begbear1952 Easley, SC 65, joined Jan. 2010	Quote from adolphjesus: Ah, religious people in an atheism forum...now there's ultimate intelligence there Yes indeedy, it is, isn't it? I got the idea from your atheist peers over in the religion forum. Why don't you run along over there and tell them that the atheists and believers are now in full agreement that they are stupid for hanging out in the religion forum, there's a good boy.

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