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1/7/2017 2:54:37 PM Trodden Unter Das Boot  
mindya
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(Luke 21:24 KJV) And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.


(Rev 11:2 KJV) But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.


In the above two verses the Greek word pateo is translated as tread or trodden:

From Strongs we have:

G3961 pateo pat-eh'-o

from a derivative probably of G3817 (meaning a "path");

to trample (literally or figuratively)

KJV --tread (down, under foot).


While the actual definition my not seem to be a big deal at first reading except when we consider that when used by futurist "theologies" it is being wrongly applied.

A typical example from "futurism":

From 70 AD until today, Jerusalem has continued to be under Gentile control. When Jerusalem was captured by Israel in the 1967 War, many Bible students thought the times of the Gentiles were over.


However when we look at the "English - Greek Lexicon" by F. Wilbur Gingrich and Frederick W. Danker for a definition of "pateo" we get some better insight:





g. tread on, trample ( Iambl. , Vi. Pyth. 31, 193) of the undisciplined swarming of a victorious army through a conquered city

And when we compare this "swarming of a victorious army through a conquered city" with Jesus' statement:

(Luke 21:20 KJV) And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

(Luke 21:24 KJV) And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

So we have a better idea of what is meant by the "times of the gentiles", not a domination of Jerusalem by political control by the Gentiles until 1948, 1967 or some other date but a "swarming of a victorious army" in the 1st century AD.

When we compare the history of Jerusalem in the was of 66-70 AD ( 42 months) we find this is precisely what John in his revelation said would happen - "and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months".

This is surely another blow to futurist "theologies".

Another example of pateo in the following:

(Luke 10:19 KJV) Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

I doubt that Jesus was saying that the disciples had control over snakes and scorpions, rather a crushing of them.

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1/7/2017 4:16:22 PM Trodden Unter Das Boot  

looptex1
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Quote from mindya:



(Luke 10:19 KJV) Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

I doubt that Jesus was saying that the disciples had control over snakes and scorpions, rather a crushing of them.

I doubt it also.
I'd bet the serpents and scorpions they were going to thread on were these.

Matt 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Matt 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

And here is the scorpions
Ezekiel 2:6 And thou, son of man, be not afraid of them, neither be afraid of their words, though briers and thorns be with thee, and thou dost dwell among scorpions: be not afraid of their words, nor be dismayed at their looks, though they be a rebellious house.

Now unless scorpions can speak and we don't know it, I'd say he isn't speaking of a natural literal scorpion.

Isn't it just lovely when you can derive the meanings of things just by reading the word.

1/7/2017 4:28:22 PM Trodden Unter Das Boot  
mindya
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It's clearly using figurative language Loop:

(Mat 3:7 KJV) But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

1/7/2017 5:05:49 PM Trodden Unter Das Boot  

ludlowlowell
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Some of Jesus' prohecies were about the events of 70 a.d., some about events far into the future, His second coming, etc. Luke 21:24 obviously falls into the first category.



[Edited 1/7/2017 5:06:14 PM ]

1/7/2017 5:46:32 PM Trodden Unter Das Boot  

looptex1
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Quote from ludlowlowell:
Some of Jesus' prohecies were about the events of 70 a.d., some about events far into the future, His second coming, etc. Luke 21:24 obviously falls into the first category.
any and all prophecies Jesus gave come to pass in that generation.

1/7/2017 6:12:55 PM Trodden Unter Das Boot  
mindya
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Quote from ludlowlowell:
Some of Jesus' prohecies were about the events of 70 a.d., some about events far into the future, His second coming, etc. Luke 21:24 obviously falls into the first category.


So how do you separate 21:24 from 21:27

(Luke 21:27 KJV) And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Where did he give any indication that 21:27 is centuries after the destruction of Jerusalem when it was compassed by armies?

1/7/2017 7:05:26 PM Trodden Unter Das Boot  

isna_la_wica
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Diese römischen Sandalen!


Luke 21:24 Young's Literal Translation
and they shall fall by the mouth of the sword, and shall be led captive to all the nations, and Jerusalem shall be trodden down by nations, till the times of nations be fulfilled.

Something I noticed, the word used for the "sword " is rather specific. Not just a "sword".


? 3162. machaira ?
Strong's Concordance
machaira: a short sword or dagger
Original Word: µ??a??a, a?, ?
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: machaira
Phonetic Spelling: (makh'-ahee-rah)
Short Definition: a sword
Definition: a sword.

And checking the verse in the Latin Vulgate, again it is specific on the type of sword.



Luke 21:24 VUL 24 et cadent in ore gladii et captivi ducentur in omnes gentes et Hierusalem calcabitur a gentibus donec impleantur tempora nationum

And again, it refers to a specific sword.

Gladius[edit]

Re-enactor with Pompeii type gladius.
Main article: Gladius
Gladius is the general Latin word for "sword". In the Roman Republic, the term 'Gladius Hispaniensis' (Spanish Sword) referred (and refers today) specifically to the short sword, 50 cm-60 cm (24 inches) long, used by Roman legionaries from the 3rd century BC.
Roman military personal equipment - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_military_personal_equipment

Shorter swords were the main weapon in many of the Roman divisions, and troops with them were quite often used as the shock troops during a siege, First into the City, then the "principles " would follow behind.

There were several different swords used by the Roman Army. And I find it fascinating, that this specific sword is mentioned.

So, this is a specific reference to a "type" of sword, used by the Roman army. No way someone can claim it is a reference to today.

1/7/2017 7:23:41 PM Trodden Unter Das Boot  

ludlowlowell
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Quote from mindya:
So how do you separate 21:24 from 21:27

(Luke 21:27 KJV) And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Where did he give any indication that 21:27 is centuries after the destruction of Jerusalem when it was compassed by armies?


Verse 24 is about the 70 a.d. destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, and verse 27 is about the Second Coming, a furure event. If you notice, all throughout the Gospels Jesus likes to change the subject a lot, and especially when prophesying. He will go back and forth from 70 a.d. stuff to centuries-later stuff.

Why does Jesus change the subject so much? I have a theory about that, and I emphasize that it is my personal opinion only. One, Jesus said a lot of things about a lot of subjects, and the last verse of John says that there aren't enough books in the world to record everything Jesus said, so the Gospel writers quoted one saying of Jesus, then another, leaving out any segway for brevity's sake, so that Jesus was really less of a subject changer than it looks like. Two, Jesus had some things He felt that He needed the people to know, so when someone asked Him a question He would answer that question and go on and answer some unasked questions, just to get the message out. (Maybe that's two theories, not just one theory.)

1/7/2017 8:01:17 PM Trodden Unter Das Boot  
mindya
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I never thought to look at the "sword" in the passage. Interesting for sure.

1/7/2017 8:04:39 PM Trodden Unter Das Boot  

isna_la_wica
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Quote from ludlowlowell:
Verse 24 is about the 70 a.d. destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, and verse 27 is about the Second Coming, a furure event. If you notice, all throughout the Gospels Jesus likes to change the subject a lot, and especially when prophesying. He will go back and forth from 70 a.d. stuff to centuries-later stuff.

Why does Jesus change the subject so much? I have a theory about that, and I emphasize that it is my personal opinion only. One, Jesus said a lot of things about a lot of subjects, and the last verse of John says that there aren't enough books in the world to record everything Jesus said, so the Gospel writers quoted one saying of Jesus, then another, leaving out any segway for brevity's sake, so that Jesus was really less of a subject changer than it looks like. Two, Jesus had some things He felt that He needed the people to know, so when someone asked Him a question He would answer that question and go on and answer some unasked questions, just to get the message out. (Maybe that's two theories, not just one theory.)


That is not accurate at all.

You need to get this book, the 307 questions Jesus asked:

Contrary to some common assumptions, Jesus is not the ultimate Answer Man, but more like the Great Questioner. In the Gospels Jesus asks many more questions than he answers. To be precise, Jesus asks 307 questions. He is asked 183 of which he only answers 3. Asking questions was central to Jesus’ life and teachings. In fact, for every question he answers directly he asks—literally—a hundred. Jesus is the Question considers the questions Jesus asks—what they tell us about Jesus and, more important, what our responses might say about what it means to follow Him. Through Jesus’ questions, he modeled the struggle, the wondering, the thinking it through that helps us draw closer to God and better understand, not just the answer, but ourselves, our process and ultimately why questions are among Jesus’ most profound gifts for a life of faith. A game-changer of a book.
Jesus Is the Question: The 307 Questions Jesus Asked and the 3 He ...
https://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Question-Questions-Asked-Answered/dp/1426755147

1/7/2017 8:05:22 PM Trodden Unter Das Boot  

looptex1
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Quote from ludlowlowell:
Verse 24 is about the 70 a.d. destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, and verse 27 is about the Second Coming, a furure event. If you notice, all throughout the Gospels Jesus likes to change the subject a lot, and especially when prophesying. He will go back and forth from 70 a.d. stuff to centuries-later stuff.

Why does Jesus change the subject so much? I have a theory about that, and I emphasize that it is my personal opinion only. One, Jesus said a lot of things about a lot of subjects, and the last verse of John says that there aren't enough books in the world to record everything Jesus said, so the Gospel writers quoted one saying of Jesus, then another, leaving out any segway for brevity's sake, so that Jesus was really less of a subject changer than it looks like. Two, Jesus had some things He felt that He needed the people to know, so when someone asked Him a question He would answer that question and go on and answer some unasked questions, just to get the message out. (Maybe that's two theories, not just one theory.)

How much dope did you have to smoke to come up with that? you've been talking with fjo and it's beginning to show.

The whole conversation was about "the end"
There was no changing of subjects or answering unasked questions.

1/7/2017 8:07:03 PM Trodden Unter Das Boot  

isna_la_wica
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Quote from mindya:
I never thought to look at the "sword" in the passage. Interesting for sure.


Actually, I am looking up other passages that people say are about today, and see if things specific to Romans back then are mentioned.

1/7/2017 8:21:25 PM Trodden Unter Das Boot  
mindya
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So what yer saying Lud is:

21:24 70 AD.
21:27 some time in the indefinite future.
21:32 back to 70 AD.

(Luke 21:32 KJV) Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

Really?

1/7/2017 8:28:13 PM Trodden Unter Das Boot  

isna_la_wica
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Eleven words,{ 3 Greek and 8 in Hebrew } from scripture were translated into "sword";

In the YLT, "sword " occurs: 421 times in 380 verses in the YLT.

And yes, the 11 words, do differ from each other in specific ways. I think I am correct, the "Sword " mentioned is specific to Roman Troops .

Sword, in Hebrew :

Strong's Hebrew Lexicon Search Results


Result of search for "sword":
19 'ibchah ib-khaw' from an unused root (apparently meaning to turn); brandishing of a sword:--point.

1300 baraq baw-rawk' from 1299; lightning; by analogy, a gleam; concretely, a flashing sword:--bright, glitter(-ing sword), lightning.
2719 chereb kheh'-reb from 2717; drought; also a cutting instrument (from its destructive effect), as a knife, sword, or other sharp implement:--axe, dagger, knife, mattock, sword, tool.
4380 mkerah mek-ay-raw' probably from the same as 3564 in the sense of stabbing; a sword:--habitation.
5084 nadan naw-dawn' of uncertain derivation; a sheath (of a sword):--sheath.
6609 pthikhah peth-ee-khaw' from 6605; something opened, i.e. a drawn sword:--drawn sword.
7524 retsach reh-tsakh from 7523; a crushing; specifically, a murder-cry:--slaughter, sword.
7973 shelach sheh'-lakh from 7971; a missile of attack, i.e. spear; also (figuratively) a shoot of growth; i.e. branch:--dart, plant, X put off, sword, weapon.

Greek :

Strong's Greek Lexicon Search Results


Result of search for "sword":
645. apospao ap-os-pah'-o from 575 and 4685; to drag forth, i.e. (literally) unsheathe (a sword), or relatively (with a degree of force implied) retire (personally or factiously):--(with-)draw (away), after we were gotten from.

3162. machaira makh'-ahee-rah probably feminine of a presumed derivative of 3163; a knife, i.e. dirk; figuratively, war, judicial punishment:--sword.
4501. rhomphaia hrom-fah'-yah probably of foreign origin; a sabre, i.e. a long and broad cutlass (any weapon of the kind, literally or figuratively):--sword.
Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon
www.eliyah.com/lexicon.html


This cannot be for any thing other than the weapon used by Roman Troops, and so far, I cannot find them being used by Romans past 108 AD. Still working on that.

1/7/2017 8:46:09 PM Trodden Unter Das Boot  
mindya
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I'm still looking - nothing conclusive yet - hey macarena...

1/7/2017 9:01:26 PM Trodden Unter Das Boot  
mindya
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Liddell Scott Jones lexicon ain't much help:




1/7/2017 9:03:19 PM Trodden Unter Das Boot  

isna_la_wica
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Quote from mindya:
I'm still looking - nothing conclusive yet - hey macarena...


I notice a similar sword, very short, was the one used by Peter to cut the High Priests ear off.

John 18:10 Young's Literal Translation
Simon Peter, therefore, having a sword, drew it, and struck the chief priest's servant, and cut off his right ear -- and the name of the servant was Malchus --

? 3162. machaira ?
Strong's Concordance
machaira: a short sword or dagger
Original Word: µ??a??a, a?, ?
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: machaira
Phonetic Spelling: (makh'-ahee-rah)
Short Definition: a sword
Definition: a sword.

Kinda ironic in a way.

Malchus was a slave or servant of the High Priest , and he was brought down by Peter who so many think represented Rome. Almost prophetic in a way of what would come, eh>

1/7/2017 9:05:03 PM Trodden Unter Das Boot  

ludlowlowell
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Quote from mindya:
So what yer saying Lud is:

21:24 70 AD.
21:27 some time in the indefinite future.
21:32 back to 70 AD.

(Luke 21:32 KJV) Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

Really?


That's exactly what I'm saying. If Jesus apparently is changing the subject back and forth, it may be that He, at the time, spoke at length about what would happen in a.d. 70, then spoke at length about what would happen at the end of the world, and Luke, who got all of this second hand (he was not an eyewitness, remember), kind of jumbled bits and pieces from both talks.

1/7/2017 9:15:02 PM Trodden Unter Das Boot  

looptex1
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Quote from ludlowlowell:
That's exactly what I'm saying. If Jesus apparently is changing the subject back and forth, it may be that He, at the time, spoke at length about what would happen in a.d. 70, then spoke at length about what would happen at the end of the world, and Luke, who got all of this second hand (he was not an eyewitness, remember), kind of jumbled bits and pieces from both talks.
well, what about Matt and mark?
They give the same story and the same details.

1/7/2017 9:28:17 PM Trodden Unter Das Boot  
mindya
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Quote from ludlowlowell:
That's exactly what I'm saying. If Jesus apparently is changing the subject back and forth, it may be that He, at the time, spoke at length about what would happen in a.d. 70, then spoke at length about what would happen at the end of the world, and Luke, who got all of this second hand (he was not an eyewitness, remember), kind of jumbled bits and pieces from both talks.


There is no end of the world - Jesus spoke of the end of the age.

So show us in this how Jesus skips from 70 AD, then to the indefinite future and back to 70 AD and what would his purpose be and how the disciplse would understand that he was doing so.

(Luke 21:20 KJV) And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

(Luke 21:21 KJV) Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

(Luke 21:22 KJV) For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

(Luke 21:23 KJV) But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

(Luke 21:24 KJV) And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

(Luke 21:25 KJV) And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

(Luke 21:26 KJV) Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

(Luke 21:27 KJV) And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

(Luke 21:28 KJV) And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

(Luke 21:29 KJV) And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;

(Luke 21:30 KJV) When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.

(Luke 21:31 KJV) So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

(Luke 21:32 KJV) Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

1/7/2017 9:30:07 PM Trodden Unter Das Boot  

ludlowlowell
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Same explanation. Even the eyewitness Matthew might have jumbled two conversations for brevity's sake.

St. Augustine and other Fathers of the Church taught that Matthew was written before the other Gospels. Perhaps Mark and Luke, because they were not eyewitnesses, copied from Matthew, who was, perhaps with Matthew's permission. Who knows? This certainly doesn't mean the Gospels of Mark and Luke aren't inspired, but remember Mark and Luke were not eyewitnesses and had to get their information from people who were.

Once again I emphasize that this is my personal opinion only, not a Catholic doctrine, and I might be wrong.

1/7/2017 10:11:02 PM Trodden Unter Das Boot  
mindya
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It's too bad that woman Fatimah with the 3 kids didn't get an update on Luke 21:24 - 34.

1/7/2017 10:54:16 PM Trodden Unter Das Boot  

ludlowlowell
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Quote from mindya:
It's too bad that woman Fatimah with the 3 kids didn't get an update on Luke 21:24 - 34.


What has the one have to do with the other? How do these two things contradict each other?

1/7/2017 10:56:03 PM Trodden Unter Das Boot  

isna_la_wica
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I noticed that the Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary, links verse 20 to the flight from Pella.



"Luke 21:20
And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
20, 21. by armies—encamped armies, that is, besieged: "the abomination of desolation" (meaning the Roman ensigns, as the symbols of an idolatrous, pagan, unclean power) "spoken of by Daniel the prophet" (Da 9:27) "standing where it ought not" (Mr 13:14). "Whoso readeth [that prophecy] let him understand" (Mt 24:15).
Then … flee, &c.—Eusebius says the Christians fled to Pella, at the north extremity of Perea, being "prophetically directed"; perhaps by some prophetic intimation still more explicit than this, which still would be their chart."

1/7/2017 11:14:57 PM Trodden Unter Das Boot  
mindya
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Quote from isna_la_wica:
I noticed that the Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary, links verse 20 to the flight from Pella.



"Luke 21:20
And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
20, 21. by armies—encamped armies, that is, besieged: "the abomination of desolation" (meaning the Roman ensigns, as the symbols of an idolatrous, pagan, unclean power) "spoken of by Daniel the prophet" (Da 9:27) "standing where it ought not" (Mr 13:14). "Whoso readeth [that prophecy] let him understand" (Mt 24:15).
Then … flee, &c.—Eusebius says the Christians fled to Pella, at the north extremity of Perea, being "prophetically directed"; perhaps by some prophetic intimation still more explicit than this, which still would be their chart."


Adam Clarke basically says the same:

Verse 15

The abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel - This abomination of desolation, St. Luke, ( Luke 21:20, Luke 21:21), refers to the Roman army; and this abomination standing in the holy place is the Roman army besieging Jerusalem; this, our Lord says, is what was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, in the ninth and eleventh chapters of his prophecy; and so let every one who reads these prophecies understand them; and in reference to this very event they are understood by the rabbins.

The Roman army is called an abomination, for its ensigns and images, which were so to the Jews. Josephus says, (War, b. vi. chap. 6), the Romans brought their ensigns into the temple, and placed them over against the eastern gate, and sacrificed to them there.

The Roman army is therefore fitly called the abomination, and the abomination which maketh desolate, as it was to desolate and lay waste Jerusalem; and this army besieging Jerusalem is called by St. Mark, Mark 13:14, standing where it ought not, that is, as in the text here, the holy place; as not only the city, but a considerable compass of ground about it, was deemed holy, and consequently no profane persons should stand on it.




[Edited 1/7/2017 11:15:33 PM ]

1/8/2017 1:59:23 AM Trodden Unter Das Boot  

looptex1
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Quote from ludlowlowell:
Same explanation. Even the eyewitness Matthew might have jumbled two conversations for brevity's sake.

St. Augustine and other Fathers of the Church taught that Matthew was written before the other Gospels. Perhaps Mark and Luke, because they were not eyewitnesses, copied from Matthew, who was, perhaps with Matthew's permission. Who knows? This certainly doesn't mean the Gospels of Mark and Luke aren't inspired, but remember Mark and Luke were not eyewitnesses and had to get their information from people who were.

Once again I emphasize that this is my personal opinion only, not a Catholic doctrine, and I might be wrong.
so it is your opinion, that the bible has jumbled up messes In it?
Rather than all scripture is inspired and profitable?

1/8/2017 2:28:28 AM Trodden Unter Das Boot  

ludlowlowell
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The truths in the Bible are there. The Bible, properly translated and interpreted, contains no error on matters of faith or morals, and we can be sure that Jesus is quoted correctly throughout. But maybe the Gospel wtriters did some sloppy editing here and there.

1/9/2017 4:52:48 PM Trodden Unter Das Boot  
mindya
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Quote from ludlowlowell:
The truths in the Bible are there. The Bible, properly translated and interpreted, contains no error on matters of faith or morals, and we can be sure that Jesus is quoted correctly throughout. But maybe the Gospel wtriters did some sloppy editing here and there.


It makes sense when viewed from the full preterist perspective.

1/9/2017 6:54:24 PM Trodden Unter Das Boot  

ludlowlowell
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Much of what Jesus prophesied was about the events of 70 a.d., true, but not everything. He has certainly not returned in clouds of glory, dor instance.

1/9/2017 8:21:47 PM Trodden Unter Das Boot  

looptex1
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Then apparently you think he lied

1/10/2017 12:49:34 PM Trodden Unter Das Boot  

ludlowlowell
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No, Jesus did not lie. When did Jesus lie, or when did I say Jesus lied?

Just because your own interpretation of scripture might be different from someone elses's doesn't mean that the other person is lying, or insincere, or hasn't read the Bible. It just means that that other person has a different interpretation than yours, that's all.

1/10/2017 1:05:19 PM Trodden Unter Das Boot  

looptex1
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I didn't say lied lud.

If he didn't return in clouds of glory, then he lied.

He told them, some of them, would not die till they saw the son of man coming.

Have all those men died?
Yes
Then we have to conclusions.
either he came and they saw it before they died,
Or he lied.

1/10/2017 3:32:15 PM Trodden Unter Das Boot  

ludlowlowell
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When Jesus told the members of tge Sanhedrin "And you shall see the Son of man...coming with the clouds of heaven" (Mark 14:62), by "you" Jesus did not mean the members of tge Sanhedrin personally. He was speaking to the whole human race. It would be like a financial expert telcongressional committee "One day you will see the Social Security system collapse", the expert means that one day the country will see it, not that all the members of the committee will personally see it.

1/10/2017 3:37:21 PM Trodden Unter Das Boot  

looptex1
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Quote from ludlowlowell:
When Jesus told the members of tge Sanhedrin "And you shall see the Son of man...coming with the clouds of heaven" (Mark 14:62), by "you" Jesus did not mean the members of tge Sanhedrin personally. He was speaking to the whole human race. It would be like a financial expert telcongressional committee "One day you will see the Social Security system collapse", the expert means that one day the country will see it, not that all the members of the committee will personally see it.
nice try lud.

Some of YOU standing here shall not taste of death

Now explain please how the whole human race is standing there.

This aught to be good..

1/10/2017 7:08:07 PM Trodden Unter Das Boot  

ludlowlowell
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Please tell me the scripture reference to that.

1/10/2017 7:22:33 PM Trodden Unter Das Boot  

looptex1
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Quote from ludlowlowell:
Please tell me the scripture reference to that.
Matt 16:28
Mark 9:1
Luke 9:27
That is the verses that say "shall not taste of death"
This does not include the verses saying "this generation shall not pass"

1/10/2017 8:04:26 PM Trodden Unter Das Boot  
mindya
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(Mat 16:28 KJV) Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

(Mat 17:1 KJV) And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,

1/10/2017 8:34:35 PM Trodden Unter Das Boot  

ludlowlowell
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The coming of the Kingdom ogf God---Jesus' Mystical Body the Catholic Church---is different from His second coming, a coming on clouds of glory.

Jesus never left earth, but Jesus ascended into Heaven and is coming again. Is this a contradiction? No, because Jesus spiritually, invisibly, never left. He is present in the Church, present in the Holy Eucharist, and present in the hearts and souls of those who believe. Persons who are in the state of grace have, not just the Holy Spirit living in their souls, but the Father and Son as well. Of course, since Jesus is God, He is present everywhere, so Jesus is still with us in that sense.

But Jesus, walking around in a physical body that people could see with their own eyes, in that sense Jesus did leave when He ascended into Heaven, and one day---maybe 10,000 years from now, maybe tomorrow---He will return in a visible way, a way that all in the whole world will see, and on clouds of glory.

1/10/2017 9:01:21 PM Trodden Unter Das Boot  

looptex1
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You definitely don't know the scriptures.

Your making up your belief as you go.

Oh, and btw, there was 10 days after he ascended before the holy spirit returned.

That's why he told them to tarry at Jerusalem

1/10/2017 9:03:52 PM Trodden Unter Das Boot  
cupocheer
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^ correct


And Lud only recites posted Catholic rhetoric from the www, repeatedly. He doesn't know what he is talking about.

He posts what others are talking about.

1/11/2017 2:52:41 AM Trodden Unter Das Boot  

ludlowlowell
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Quote from looptex1:
You definitely don't know the scriptures.

Your making up your belief as you go.

Oh, and btw, there was 10 days after he ascended before the holy spirit returned.

That's why he told them to tarry at Jerusalem


I don't make up stuff as I go. I explain Catholic doctrine. And it is true that the Holy Spirit came ten days after Jesus ascended, but that doesn't change the fact that a person in the state of grace, at least since Pentecost, has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

2/3/2017 8:51:40 AM Trodden Unter Das Boot  
cupocheer
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5/30/2017 9:04:02 AM Trodden Unter Das Boot  
cupocheer
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