A.E. Knoch denies "born again" applies to Christians

1/31/2017 4:38:12 PM	A.E. Knoch denies "born again" applies to Christians
mindya Vancouver, BC 64, joined Jan. 2009	We have Adolph denying the new birth for us Christians in John: CLV 1 John 5:1 Everyone who is believing that Jesus is the Christ is begotten of God. And everyone who is loving Him Who begets is loving him also who is begotten by Him. Comments 1 John 5: 1 The new birth is confined to the Circumcision, nevertheless, as we also are members of God's family, it should be natural for us to love all who know Him as their Father. In Peter: CLV 1 Peter 1:23 having BEEN regenerated, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, through the word of God, living and permanent. Comments 1 Pet 1:23 Regeneration is a requisite for entrance into the kingdom (Jn.3:3). In spirit, we skip the kingdom and enter the new creation (2Co.5:11), which will not become a physical reality until after the thousand years. This from a Knocherite sums it: The new birth spoken of by the Lord Jesus in John 3 is a reference to the future birth of the nation Israel when she is to be spiritually cleansed and then possess her land forever. Source: http://www.biblestudentsnotebook.com/bsn561.pdf The following is from Adolph's overly wordy and convoluted commentary on the new testament: John 3:1-24 Spiritual regeneration, the one imperative condition, apart from which the kingdom cannot be entered, is utterly beyond his erudition. All that he considered vital was physical relationship with the favored nation. The Lord did not give out regeneration as good news, but as bad news. This is not the gospel, even for the Circumcision. The evangel is always concerned with God and His Christ, never with man and his needs or efforts. Of the latter nothing good can be said, no evangel can be formulated. The new birth is not an evangel in any sense. 1 Peter 1:23-2:20 23 Regeneration is a requisite for entrance into the kingdom (Jn.3:3). In spirit, we skip the kingdom and enter the new creation (2Co.5:11), which will not become a physical reality until after the thousand years. There is a vast difference between the two. Paul does not proclaim the new birth. That is not nearly sufficient to describe the great change necessary for fitting us for our celestial destiny. In the resurrection we shall not only be renewed but changed (1Co.15:52). As at present constituted we could not enter into our celestial allotment. Hence we are the subjects of a radical re-creation. The Circumcision in the kingdom on the earth will need no such great change to adapt them to conditions as they will be in that day, so the figure used of them is that of regeneration. The Lord spoke of the kingdom as "the renascence" (Mt.19:28), during which the old creation will be renewed, the curse removed, the law observed, by a people who have a "change of heart" (Jer.31:36), and the old earth will enjoy its sabbath. So renascence is not the creation of a new man but the regeneration of the old. CLV 1 John 5:1 Everyone who is believing that Jesus is the Christ is begotten of God. And everyone who is loving Him Who begets is loving him also who is begotten by Him. 1 John 5:1 The new birth is confined to the Circumcision, nevertheless, as we also are members of God's family, it should be natural for us to love all who know Him as their Father. I don't think so Adolph... And what a load of convoluted over wordy BS. Meet singles at DateHookup.dating, we're 100% free! Join now!
2/1/2017 3:55:12 PM	A.E. Knoch denies "born again" applies to Christians
mindya Vancouver, BC 64, joined Jan. 2009	Oh, the bigHand really mad now. Reading through the beer goggles again.. Like I said the bigHand can't read at all at all: He quotes Herr. Adolph but misses the first statement CLV 1 John 5:1 Everyone who is believing that Jesus is the Christ is begotten of God. And everyone who is loving Him Who begets is loving him also who is begotten by Him. Adolph's comments 1 John 5: 1 *The new birth is confined* to the Circumcision, nevertheless, as we also are members of God's family, it should be natural for us to love all who know Him as their Father. The new birth is confined to the Circumcision- next the bigHand will be trying to re-educate us on what confined means......... The rest of Herr. Adolph's comments are filler and mush. "You exaggerate your own importance and the importance of this web site. The forums here are used for entertainment value only." More from Herr Adolph: But the more I meditated on the Scriptures, the more perplexed I became. If Paul was sent especially to the nations, why preach from a text in John? I found the new birth to be in the plural in the Original — ye must be born again—and it seemed to indicate the nation of Israel, especially when compared with the ancient prophets. And why does Paul use the far more radical figure of a new creation? "the more perplexed I became" - which didn't improve with the more he wrote. "why does Paul use the far more radical figure of a new creation?**" - if Adolph had figured that simple thing out he could have saved himself a whole lot to time and ink.
2/1/2017 6:24:33 PM	A.E. Knoch denies "born again" applies to Christians
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 64, joined Feb. 2008	I don't know about you guys, but I am not in the habit of following perplexed leaders.
2/3/2017 8:50:07 AM	A.E. Knoch denies "born again" applies to Christians
cupocheer Assumption, IL 68, joined May. 2010
4/10/2017 5:44:00 AM	A.E. Knoch denies "born again" applies to Christians
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	Thanks, Mindya, for pointing this out. This again is the epitomy of false teaching and reminds me of what Jesus said about the Pharisees: Matt 23:13,15,23,24,28 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. 24Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. Being regenerated and born again is for all people, both Jew and Gentile. All the apostles taught it as recorded in the Scriptures, including Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles. It was part of his gospel message to Gentiles as well as Jews! Living in the kingdom of Christ is not just for Jews but Gentiles as well. By rejecting what the Lord and the apostles taught as well as the prophets in the OT concerning regeneration of the Spirit, he is rejecting how one is saved and seeking to keep people from entering into the kingdom. Paul, the apostle to the 'uncircumcised' taught about the validity of the kingdom of God for Gentiles as well as Jews. Here are some examples: Rom 14:17; 1 Cor 4:20; 6:9, 10; 15:24, 50; Gal 5:21; Eph 5:5; Col 1:13; 4:11; 1 Thess 2:12; 2 Thess 1:5; and 2 Tim 4:1, 18. "Several indicate who will not enter God’s kingdom. For example, Paul states that “the unjust will not inherit God’s kingdom” (1 Cor 6:9). Gal 5:21 and Eph 5:5 declare that people who practice ungodly behavior will not have an inheritance in God’s kingdom. In addition, Paul says that those who worked with him were “co-workers for the kingdom of God” (Col 4:11). These verses reveal a strong connection between the kingdom and soteriology." Brian Vickers, “The Kingdom of God in Paul’s Gospel,” The Southern Baptist Journal of Theology, 12.1 (Spring 2008): 57. Matt 7:14-16 But small is the gate and narrow the way that leads to life, and only a few find it. 15Beware of false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them.
4/10/2017 7:39:45 AM	A.E. Knoch denies "born again" applies to Christians
isna_la_wica Brantford, ON 63, joined Mar. 2012	More from Herr Adolph: But the more I meditated on the Scriptures, the more perplexed I became. If Paul was sent especially to the nations, why preach from a text in John? I found the new birth to be in the plural in the Original — ye must be born again—and it seemed to indicate the nation of Israel, especially when compared with the ancient prophets. And why does Paul use the far more radical figure of a new creation? So that is why he refuses to acknowledge that Christ is the temple raised up again in 3 days, and any who do not agree with him on the Temple are not Christian? The following is from Adolph's overly wordy and convoluted commentary on the new testament: Its the special Greek having to be translated into special English, makes more sense if you speak it in a German accent. Try shouting it all out next time, achtung! Seriously, the manual from my 911 was worded strangely and was hard to understand. This mechanic who worked at the Friesenheim dealer , had me rolling on the floor laughing after I told him it was hard to understand. So he took the manual and started shouting it out Hitler style. lol, he was a hoot.
4/10/2017 9:39:58 AM	A.E. Knoch denies "born again" applies to Christians
isna_la_wica Brantford, ON 63, joined Mar. 2012	If one wants to see Knochs point of view on this, you might find this interesting : Paul's Relation To John, by A. E. Knoch - The Herald Of God's Grace www.theheraldofgodsgrace.org/Knoch/PaulsRelationToJohn.htm
4/10/2017 2:13:06 PM	A.E. Knoch denies "born again" applies to Christians
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	The Apostle Paul's words in Scripture are a correction to Mr. Knoch's 'born again' only for the Jews false teaching. Galatians 4:21-31 YLT Tell me, ye who are willing to be under law, the law do ye not hear? 22for it hath been written, that Abraham had two sons, one by the maid-servant, and one by the free-woman, 23but he who [is] of the maid-servant, according to flesh hath been, and he who [is] of the free-woman, through the promise; 24which things are allegorized, for these are the TWO COVENANTS: one, indeed, from mount Sinai, to servitude bringing forth, which is Hagar; 25for this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and doth correspond to the Jerusalem that now [is], and is in servitude with her children, 26and the Jerusalem above is the free-woman, which is mother of us all, 27for it hath been written, ‘Rejoice, O barren, who art not bearing; break forth and cry, thou who art not travailing, because many [are] the children of the desolate — more than of her having the husband.’ 28And we, brethren, as Isaac, are children of promise, 29but as then he who was BORN ACCORDING TO THE FLESH did persecute him ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT; SO ALSO NOW. 30But what saith the Writing? ‘Cast forth the maid-servant & her son, for the son of the maid-servant may not be heir with the son of the free-woman;’ 31then, BRETHREN, WE are not a maid-servant’s children, but the free-woman’s. Titus 2:1,2,7,8,11-15 YLT And thou — be speaking what doth become the sound teaching...in the teaching uncorruptedness...discourse sound...so that he who is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having nothing evil to say concerning you. For the saving grace of God was MANIFESTED TO ALL MEN, 12teaching us, that denying the impiety and the worldly desires, soberly and righteously and piously we may live in the present age, 13waiting for the blessed hope & manifestation OF THE GLORY OF OUR GREAT GOD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST, 14Who did give Himself for us, that He might ransom us from all lawlessness & might purify to Himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works; 15these things be speaking & exhorting & convicting, with all charge; let no one despise thee! Titus 3:4-8 And when the kindness & the love TO MEN OF GOD OUR SAVIOR did appear 5(not by works that [are] in righteousness that we did but according to His kindness,) He did SAVE US, THROUGH A BATHING OF REGENERATION & A RENEWING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, WHICH HE POURED UPON US RICHLY, through Jesus Christ our Saviour, 7that having been declared righteous by His grace, heirs we may become according to the hope of life age-during. This is a FAITHFUL saying. Paul makes it plain teaching: the NEW BIRTH (in contrast to the old birth), the BORN OF THE SPIRIT IS INDEED FOR THE GENTILES AS WELL AS THE JEWS. He shows that Jacob was spiritually born again, regenerated by God's Spirit vs Esau, born of the flesh & persecuting Jacob. He then shows that they represented TWO COVENANTS, the old & the new. And he shows that the one true gospel was preached to Abraham, who in turn preached it to his descendants--Jacob is born of promise. And what did Paul teach both Jews AND GENTILES was true concerning the 'promise given to Abraham?' Gal 3:14 He redeemed us so that the BLESSING PROMISED to Abraham would COME TO THE GENTILES in Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive THE PROMISE OF THE SPIRIT. Acts 2:33 Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father THE PROMISE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, He has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing & hearing. Mark 1:8 I indeed did baptize you with water, but He shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit.' Acts 15:3,7-11 '...They told how the Gentiles had been converted. After much discussion, Peter got up & addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the GENTILES might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? 11No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.” Here is where the confused Mr. Knoch should have looked to remove any of his confusion & as a result, misinterpret the Scriptures. Here is where his erroneous two gospel false teaching would have stopped! The question Mr. Knoch never asked in his confusion was: which gospel did Peter preach to the Gentiles, the one only about the kingdom of God that ONLY APPLIED TO THE JEWS OR did he preach another gospel only for the Gentiles--and that second supposed gospel he preached was BEFORE it had even been revealed to Paul? There is only 1 true gospel, not two (1 for Jews & 1 for Gentiles) or even up to 7 as a poster on here falsely teaches. It is one gospel described in seven different ways. If there were more than one gospel, then Paul wouldn't have gone to the extreme pronouncement that if any other gospel was preached, that person would be ANATHEMA--CURSED. Gal 1:6-9 YLT I wonder that ye are so quickly removed from Him who did call you in the grace of Christ to another good news; 7that is NOT another, EXCEPT THERE BE CERTAIN WHO ARE TROUBLING YOU & WISHING TO PERVERT THE GOOD NEWS (GOSPEL) OF THE CHRIST. 8but even if we or a messenger out of heaven may proclaim good news to you different from what we did proclaim to you—anathema let him be! 9as we have said before & now say again, If any one to you may proclaim good news different from what ye did receive—anathema let him be! Jesus preached the one true gospel & taught it to His apostles who preached it--including Paul. It is indeed THE GOOD NEWS/GOSPEL OF THE CHRIST! May God be merciful to those who teach a different gospel on here & may they repent & believe in the one true gospel for both Jews & Gentiles & be born again! You must be born again! Born once, die twice (first and second death); born twice die only once.
4/10/2017 3:41:10 PM	A.E. Knoch denies "born again" applies to Christians
isna_la_wica Brantford, ON 63, joined Mar. 2012	Quote from brashdoc: The Apostle Paul's words in Scripture are a correction to Mr. Knoch's 'born again' only for the Jews false teaching. Galatians 4:21-31 YLT Tell me, ye who are willing to be under law, the law do ye not hear? 22for it hath been written, that Abraham had two sons, one by the maid-servant, and one by the free-woman, 23but he who [is] of the maid-servant, according to flesh hath been, and he who [is] of the free-woman, through the promise; 24which things are allegorized, for these are the TWO COVENANTS: one, indeed, from mount Sinai, to servitude bringing forth, which is Hagar; 25for this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and doth correspond to the Jerusalem that now [is], and is in servitude with her children, 26and the Jerusalem above is the free-woman, which is mother of us all, 27for it hath been written, ‘Rejoice, O barren, who art not bearing; break forth and cry, thou who art not travailing, because many [are] the children of the desolate — more than of her having the husband.’ 28And we, brethren, as Isaac, are children of promise, 29but as then he who was BORN ACCORDING TO THE FLESH did persecute him ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT; SO ALSO NOW. 30But what saith the Writing? ‘Cast forth the maid-servant & her son, for the son of the maid-servant may not be heir with the son of the free-woman;’ 31then, BRETHREN, WE are not a maid-servant’s children, but the free-woman’s. Titus 2:1,2,7,8,11-15 YLT And thou — be speaking what doth become the sound teaching...in the teaching uncorruptedness...discourse sound...so that he who is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having nothing evil to say concerning you. For the saving grace of God was MANIFESTED TO ALL MEN, 12teaching us, that denying the impiety and the worldly desires, soberly and righteously and piously we may live in the present age, 13waiting for the blessed hope & manifestation OF THE GLORY OF OUR GREAT GOD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST, 14Who did give Himself for us, that He might ransom us from all lawlessness & might purify to Himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works; 15these things be speaking & exhorting & convicting, with all charge; let no one despise thee! Titus 3:4-8 And when the kindness & the love TO MEN OF GOD OUR SAVIOR did appear 5(not by works that [are] in righteousness that we did but according to His kindness,) He did SAVE US, THROUGH A BATHING OF REGENERATION & A RENEWING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, WHICH HE POURED UPON US RICHLY, through Jesus Christ our Saviour, 7that having been declared righteous by His grace, heirs we may become according to the hope of life age-during. This is a FAITHFUL saying. Paul makes it plain teaching: the NEW BIRTH (in contrast to the old birth), the BORN OF THE SPIRIT IS INDEED FOR THE GENTILES AS WELL AS THE JEWS. He shows that Jacob was spiritually born again, regenerated by God's Spirit vs Esau, born of the flesh & persecuting Jacob. He then shows that they represented TWO COVENANTS, the old & the new. And he shows that the one true gospel was preached to Abraham, who in turn preached it to his descendants--Jacob is born of promise. And what did Paul teach both Jews AND GENTILES was true concerning the 'promise given to Abraham?' Gal 3:14 He redeemed us so that the BLESSING PROMISED to Abraham would COME TO THE GENTILES in Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive THE PROMISE OF THE SPIRIT. Acts 2:33 Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father THE PROMISE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, He has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing & hearing. Mark 1:8 I indeed did baptize you with water, but He shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit.' Acts 15:3,7-11 '...They told how the Gentiles had been converted. After much discussion, Peter got up & addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the GENTILES might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? 11No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.” Here is where the confused Mr. Knoch should have looked to remove any of his confusion & as a result, misinterpret the Scriptures. Here is where his erroneous two gospel false teaching would have stopped! The question Mr. Knoch never asked in his confusion was: which gospel did Peter preach to the Gentiles, the one only about the kingdom of God that ONLY APPLIED TO THE JEWS OR did he preach another gospel only for the Gentiles--and that second supposed gospel he preached was BEFORE it had even been revealed to Paul? There is only 1 true gospel, not two (1 for Jews & 1 for Gentiles) or even up to 7 as a poster on here falsely teaches. It is one gospel described in seven different ways. If there were more than one gospel, then Paul wouldn't have gone to the extreme pronouncement that if any other gospel was preached, that person would be ANATHEMA--CURSED. Gal 1:6-9 YLT I wonder that ye are so quickly removed from Him who did call you in the grace of Christ to another good news; 7that is NOT another, EXCEPT THERE BE CERTAIN WHO ARE TROUBLING YOU & WISHING TO PERVERT THE GOOD NEWS (GOSPEL) OF THE CHRIST. 8but even if we or a messenger out of heaven may proclaim good news to you different from what we did proclaim to you—anathema let him be! 9as we have said before & now say again, If any one to you may proclaim good news different from what ye did receive—anathema let him be! Jesus preached the one true gospel & taught it to His apostles who preached it--including Paul. It is indeed THE GOOD NEWS/GOSPEL OF THE CHRIST! May God be merciful to those who teach a different gospel on here & may they repent & believe in the one true gospel for both Jews & Gentiles & be born again! You must be born again! Born once, die twice (first and second death); born twice die only once. You nailed that Doc, thanks.
4/14/2017 3:10:06 PM	A.E. Knoch denies "born again" applies to Christians
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	I do not doubt that A.E. Knoch was a sincere man in spending most of his life studying the Word of God but he was sincerely wrong on many things that have done harm to others & his basic heretical beliefs biased his CLV translation. I have already posted on some who are fluent in the Biblical languages that knew him & how they have pointed some of these things out. Now I have found another person who was intimately acquainted with the Concordant Publishing Concern fellowship as he spent the better part of 10 years of his life living under the teachings of Mr. Knoch & those that associated with him. That is a LONG TIME to participate in & become familiar with not only the teachings & method of translation but the practical outworking in a person's life of those distorted teachings. Mike's testimony & website shows he appears to be a sincere man like Mr. Knoch, who has also studied the Scripture for many years. While I don't agree with some of his teachings that are contrary to the ancient historical, orthodox Christian teachings passed down to all the saints (like Mr Knoch), he gives us an eye-witness insider's view. One thing stood out to me in glaring hi-beam headlights as I read his 10 year long in-depth story: A.E. Knoch effectively said Jesus' teachings were 'a GREAT DISAPPOINTMENT' & the apostles' teachings (all the books of the NT except Acts & Paul's writings!) did NOT APPLY TO CHRISTIANS; they ONLY applied to Jews & wouldn't be in effect or useful UNTIL the 1000 year reign of Christ! He taught the false teaching that God has two administrations: one that applies to the Jews only & one for the Gentiles only. Thus he came up with more than one gospel, one for the kingdom of God Jews & one for the church & the additional false teaching that the bride of Christ & the body of Christ, they are not the same! And this effectively cuts out all of the OT too, for Christians, since it applied to the Law & to the Jews--other than prophecy. He was a modern day MARCION! (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcionism) Marcion was a wealthy shipowner who went to Rome in about 140AD & within 4 years he was excommunicated for his heretical teachings & for carving up the recognized NT Bible at that time, basically leaving a small portion of the gospel of Luke & the epistles of Paul (even carved some of these up). Mr. Knoch was also excommunicated--from the Plymouth Brethren--for his heretical teachings. He started out well but soon departed from the faith 'once for all delivered to the saints.'(Jude 1:2) I John 2:18,19,22-24 Children, it is the last hour & just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared...They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us...This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. 23Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. 24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard SINCE THE BEGINNING. If what you heard since the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son AND in the Father. Here is Mike's testimony: I too, was once a Pentecostal & I was as sincere when I had that experience as I am now. It was nonetheless a demonstration of the flesh which had no affect upon the heart. Yet it was all of God & has been used for my good in the long run & I thank Him for placing me in a Pentecostal home as a youth, taking me from that into the super law abiding World Wide Church Of God, with its weekly sabbath & annual holy days, clean & unclean meats, no mixing of fabrics & all the rest of the law of Moses, which none of us really kept. Peter saw this along with Paul, but it was a long process despite what Mr. A.E. Knock taught. Act 15 does not prove two administrations; it does prove that the holy spirit does not give us more than we are able to bear. What Acts 15 demonstrates is that Peter & Paul were both much further along than were the other apostles & elders. [Read Acts 15:6-10] This was years after Christ's resurrection & it serves only to demonstrate the truth of these words of our Lord the night of His apprehension by the Jews: John 16:12 "I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now." "You cannot bear them now," nor will you be able to bear them for many years to come. Mr. Knoch calls Christ's words "a practical disappointment" as I will quote below. But for now, just consider what the Jewish, supposedly "apostle to the circumcision," is telling James & all Jews in this 15th chapter of Acts. "No difference between us & them?" Would Peter say that if he believed in two administrations? No, "He is not [even] a Jew which is one outwardly" as far as God is concerned. [read Romans 2:28,29] Nevertheless, the Holy Spirit saw fit to give me over to Mr. A.E. Knoch's 'no law at all' heresy for THE BETTER PART OF 10 YEARS OF MY LIFE from about roughly 1985 through 1995.
4/14/2017 5:41:55 PM	A.E. Knoch denies "born again" applies to Christians
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	(continued) 1Cor 9:21 "To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law." There is Paul's doctrine concerning law. That is not Mr. Knoch's 'no law at all' doctrine. Those years in that fellowship were the VERY LOWEST PART OF MY SPIRITUAL WALK. It was the opposite end of the pendulum from the law abiding WCG & at the time it was very appealing to me. I was no longer under the law & I was following Mr. Knoch's advice to "revel in my freedom from the law." This is the man who teaches & I quote, "Christ's words are not for Gentile Christians, only Paul's writings are for us." What does Paul have to say to Mr. Knoch? Here it is: 1Tim 6:3-5 If any man teach otherwise & consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ & to the doctrine which is according to godliness; he is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions & STRIFES OF WORDS, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds & destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness; from such WITHDRAW thyself. It is Paul who tells us these things & it is Paul who Mr. Knoch ignores when he tells us that "Christ's words are not for us as Gentile Christians." Christ's words are "wholesome words which have a doctrine that is according to godliness." So says Paul while under the inspiration of God's Holy Spirit. Mr. Knoch teaches us to simply ignore our flesh. Here is what Paul teaches: Titus 3:8 [This is] a faithful saying & these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good & profitable unto men. Mr. Knock was so sold out to his own false doctrine on the Biblical approach to the subject of works that he went to the extreme of breaking his own rule of one English word for one Greek word when it came to the Greek word for works. The Greek word for 'works' is 'ergon.' Whenever Mr. Knoch came across that word in Paul's writings he deliberately translated it as "ideal acts." But when he came across that word 'ergon' in any of the writings of the other apostles he would translate it as 'works.' This was especially true of the book of James which Mr. Knoch wants you & me to believe teaches salvation by works only. That is a blatant lie. James, like Christ & Paul, eventually came to see that salvation was by grace through faith" & James never once says that salvation was by grace only, as Mr. Knoch insists. James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith & I have works. Shew me thy faith without thy works & I will shew thee my faith by my works. And that is exactly what Paul also taught: Eph 2:8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith & that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God; not of [our] works, lest any man should boast. For we are HIS WORKMANSHIP, created IN Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. THAT is Paul's approach to this subject of works. Does it sound like Paul taught us to simply ignore the need for works? Here is about as clear as anyone can get on this: Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear & trembling. Show me anywhere in any Concordant publication where anyone ever admonishes one to "work out your own salvation, with fear & trembling." You will not find it; instead what you will find is Christ's words will "prove to be a practical disappointment." What you will find is "Christ's words are for His future kingdom... the way to deal with your flesh is to ignore it." All these are quotes from Mr. Knoch's Commentary On The NT. Never will Mr. Knoch tell those who are in His charge to "be careful to maintain good works." Here is the right Biblical balance given this subject in God's own Word. Just look at the very next verse in Phil 2:13 "For it is God which worketh in you both to will & to do of [His] good pleasure." So we are to acknowledge that our willing & our doing is all of God. That willing & doing includes "exhort one another to love & good works." Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love & to good works Mr. Knoch would of course deny that the book of Hebrews is for us, affirming that we are not Israelites or Hebrews--but look at the very next verses after telling the Gentile Ephesians that we are saved by grace through faith: [Read Ephesians 2:11-22] "In time past Gentiles--of twain one--You also--fellowcitizens..." Where in all of Scripture is there so much as a hint of two administrations? It is only in the book of Acts, which expressly demonstrates a progressive understanding of the "Many things which you cannot bear now." I have posted many exchanges on iswasandwillbe.com concerning Mr. Knoch's doctrines. I never knew Mr. A. E. Knoch. I have nothing personally against him. I feel sure he was a very good & sincere man. But so too was President Andrew Jackson whose philosophy was that 'The only good Indian is a dead Indian.' These are Mr. Knoch's own perverse words:
4/14/2017 5:53:22 PM	A.E. Knoch denies "born again" applies to Christians
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	(conclusion) "The Beatitudes will find their fulfillment in the kingdom of the heavens, when Messiah comes again & establishes His millennial reign. Till then MOST OF THEM PROVE TO BE A PRACTICAL DISAPPOINTMENT. The merciful often do not obtain mercy. The meek do not receive an allotment in the land or the earth. Not only that, but they never shall. A meek unbeliever will receive no allotment whatever. A meek believer is promised every blessedness among the celestials (Eph. 1:3). It would be a BITTER DISAPPOINTMENT to him to have an allotment on the earth or in the land of Israel. There is NO HAPPINESS in this beatitude for us." (Concordant Commentary on the NT, A. E. Knoch 1968) What utter heresy to which I again refer to the apostle Paul's inspired words: 1Tim 6:3-5 If any man teach otherwise & consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ & to the doctrine which is according to godliness; 4 he is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions & strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, 5 perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds & destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such WITHDRAW THYSELF.
4/14/2017 6:18:54 PM	A.E. Knoch denies "born again" applies to Christians
isna_la_wica Brantford, ON 63, joined Mar. 2012	One thing stood out to me in glaring hi-beam headlights as I read his 10 year long in-depth story: A.E. Knoch effectively said Jesus' teachings were 'a GREAT DISAPPOINTMENT' & the apostles' teachings (all the books of the NT except Acts & Paul's writings!) did NOT APPLY TO CHRISTIANS; they ONLY applied to Jews & wouldn't be in effect or useful UNTIL the 1000 year reign of Christ! He taught the false teaching that God has two administrations: one that applies to the Jews only & one for the Gentiles only. That explains why following his view of prophecy seems to be "essential". So, the Cross had no meaning at all to us? If that is case, its even worse than others who at least give it the status of being a "step", anyway. This morning I tried to read the following : The Doctrine Of The Triune God \| Concordant Publishing Concern concordant.org/expositions/god-and-christ/doctrine-triune-god/ And: The Virgin Birth, by Adolph E. Knoch - The Herald Of God's Grace www.theheraldofgodsgrace.org/Knoch/TheVirginBirth.htm I failed. I have no idea what he is blathering about. Studying capacitance of a motor for my Engineers exam was more exciting ( pun intended mindya). He goes off in tangents and one is left with more questions after than before. Rather convoluted thinking. Its worse reading than Urantia. And both tend to explain too much, which we were taught back in schools for interrogation back in the 70`s, as being a sign of covering something up.
4/14/2017 7:21:46 PM	A.E. Knoch denies "born again" applies to Christians
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 64, joined Feb. 2008	Nothing that Jesus said applied to the Jews only. Hesus was introducing the New Covenant, intended for the whole world, and everything Jesus said applied to the whole world, including the need to be born again. Being born again does not mean having an emotional experience at an altar call. Being born again means being baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
4/15/2017 9:58:50 AM	A.E. Knoch denies "born again" applies to Christians
isna_la_wica Brantford, ON 63, joined Mar. 2012	Quote from ludlowlowell: Nothing that Jesus said applied to the Jews only. Hesus was introducing the New Covenant, intended for the whole world, and everything Jesus said applied to the whole world, including the need to be born again. Being born again does not mean having an emotional experience at an altar call. Being born again means being baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. No, its not a ritual, and H2O cannot wash away sins of the soul. An Alter call? I imagine is accepting Christ, Baptism acknowledgment . John 3 Amplified Bible (AMP) The New Birth 3 Now there was a certain man among the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler (member of the Sanhedrin) among the Jews, 2 who came to Jesus at night and said to Him, “Rabbi (Teacher), we know [without any doubt] that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs [these wonders, these attesting miracles] that You do unless God is with him.” 3 Jesus answered him, “I assure you and most solemnly say to you, unless a person is born again [reborn from above—spiritually transformed, renewed, sanctified], he cannot [ever] see and experience the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter his mother’s womb a second time and be born, can he?” 5 Jesus answered, “I assure you and most solemnly say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot [ever] enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh [the physical is merely physical], and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not be surprised that I have told you, ‘You must be born again [reborn from above—spiritually transformed, renewed, sanctified].’ 1 Peter 1:23 Amplified Bible (AMP) 23 for you have been born again [that is, reborn from above—spiritually transformed, renewed, and set apart for His purpose] not of seed which is perishable but [from that which is] imperishable and immortal, that is, through the living and everlasting word of God. Romans 6:4 Amplified Bible (AMP) 4 We have therefore been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory and power of the Father, we too might walk habitually in newness of life [abandoning our old ways]. You and many, will never accept the following though: Romans 6:6 Amplified Bible (AMP) 6 We know that our old [a]self [our human nature without the Holy Spirit] was nailed to the cross with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin. Romans 10:9-10 Amplified Bible (AMP) 9 because if you acknowledge and confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord [recognizing His power, authority, and majesty as God], and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart a person believes [in Christ as Savior] resulting in his justification [that is, being made righteous—being freed of the guilt of sin and made acceptable to God]; and with the mouth he acknowledges and confesses [his faith openly], resulting in and confirming [his] salvation.
4/15/2017 10:06:04 AM	A.E. Knoch denies "born again" applies to Christians
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	Amen Lud & Rich. We must be born again as the Bible teaches it not as A.E. Knoch's 'disappointing false teaching. Great verses, Rich!
4/15/2017 12:14:07 PM	A.E. Knoch denies "born again" applies to Christians
isna_la_wica Brantford, ON 63, joined Mar. 2012	Quote from brashdoc: Amen Lud & Rich. We must be born again as the Bible teaches it not as A.E. Knoch's 'disappointing false teaching. Great verses, Rich! I have an idea. mindya :This from a Knocherite sums it: Knocherite: The new birth spoken of by the Lord Jesus in John 3 is a reference to the future birth of the nation Israel when she is to be spiritually cleansed and then possess her land forever. Lets all move to Israel? I loved Tel Aviv when I was there in the 70`s, we could ride Bikes there all year long, and I have never been any where else in the world with so many beautiful and fun ladies. And then we can be born again one day! And the Coffee was really good. Its there for the first time I had Aribica beans that came from kenya. 42 years later, they are still my favourite. I remember the first time I saw them in a store here back in the 80`s. I got so excited ! lol, my poor ex thought I was nuts. I bought a pond, then we had to go find a store that sold bean grinders . Seriously though. 1 Peter 1:18-20 Amplified Bible (AMP) 18 For you know that you were not redeemed from your useless [spiritually unproductive] way of life inherited [by tradition] from your forefathers with perishable things like silver and gold, 19 but [you were actually purchased] with precious blood, like that of a [sacrificial] lamb unblemished and spotless, the priceless blood of Christ. 20 For He was [a]foreordained (foreknown) before the foundation of the world, but has appeared [publicly] in these last times for your sake - so, this verse should read not "the sake of you", but for the sake of Israel? Why does it not say that then? -why then does it say "you", in other words to the reader? If you think about it, then Knoch nor the Knocherite should even read the Bible then. Since it is only for Jews. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ephesians 1:4-5 Amplified Bible (AMP) 4 just as [in His love] He chose us in Christ [actually selected us for Himself as His own] before the foundation of the world, so that we would be holy [that is, consecrated, set apart for Him, purpose-driven] and blameless in His sight. In love 5 He predestined and lovingly planned for us to be adopted to Himself as [His own] children through Jesus Christ, in accordance with the kind intention and good pleasure of His will— If Christ only came for Israel ? - why does this say "us", and not Israel? - why would this be true, even before the nation of Israel existed? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Galatians 4:4-5 Amplified Bible (AMP) 4 But when [in God’s plan] the proper time had fully come, God sent His Son, born of a woman, born under the [regulations of the] Law, 5 so that He might redeem and liberate those who were under the Law, that we [who believe] might be adopted as sons [as God’s children with all rights as fully grown members of a family] - what law? Roman ? Nope. - so if Christ only came for Israel, why are we not told this ? ----------------------------------------------- 1 John 4:14 Amplified Bible (AMP) 14 We [who were with Him in person] have seen and testify [as eye-witnesses] that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world. - so this verse should not read "world", but rather "Israel"? ------------------------------------------------ And of course we have this verse : John 3:16 Amplified Bible (AMP) 16 “For God so [greatly] loved and dearly prized the world, that He [even] gave His [One and] [a]only begotten Son, so that whoever believes and trusts in Him [as Savior] shall not perish, but have eternal life. - "world" not Israel. ---------------------------------------------- In a way, they do not recognize the Cross at all really, if you think about it. [Edited 4/15/2017 12:15:02 PM ]
4/15/2017 1:06:43 PM	A.E. Knoch denies "born again" applies to Christians
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 64, joined Feb. 2008	Didn't Jesus command the apostles to go to the whole world and announce the Good News?
4/15/2017 1:21:25 PM	A.E. Knoch denies "born again" applies to Christians
isna_la_wica Brantford, ON 63, joined Mar. 2012	Quote from ludlowlowell: Didn't Jesus command the apostles to go to the whole world and announce the Good News? Yes, and they did. Why?
4/15/2017 2:29:27 PM	A.E. Knoch denies "born again" applies to Christians
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 64, joined Feb. 2008	Because salvation, and all the other things of the gospel, are for all peoples, not just the Jews.
4/15/2017 4:20:43 PM	A.E. Knoch denies "born again" applies to Christians
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	Romans 1:16,17 YLT For I am not ashamed of the GOOD NEWS OF THE CHRIST, for it is the power of God to salvation to EVERYONE who is believing, BOTH to Jew first AND to Greek (Gentile believing world). Romans 2:9-11 But because of your stubbornness & unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath & REVELATION of the righteous judgment of God, WHO WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory & honor & immortality, eternal life; but to those who are selfishly ambitious & do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath & indignation. There will be tribulation & distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first AND ALSO of the Greek, but glory & honor & peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first AND ALSO to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God. I'm sure with Mr. Knoch's consistent false teaching about the 2 administrations & 2 gospels (one to Jews separately & another to the Gentiles separately), he would want to ignore that the gospel of the Christ, what Jesus taught & the 12 apostles taught, was salvation for EVERYONE both to the Jew first & also to the Greek (Gentiles). ONE GOSPEL UNDER ONE ADMINISTRATION FOR THE SALVATION OF EVERYONE: WHO IS BELIEVING!
4/15/2017 6:10:46 PM	A.E. Knoch denies "born again" applies to Christians
isna_la_wica Brantford, ON 63, joined Mar. 2012	Quote from ludlowlowell: Because salvation, and all the other things of the gospel, are for all peoples, not just the Jews. Romans 1:16,17 YLT For I am not ashamed of the GOOD NEWS OF THE CHRIST, for it is the power of God to salvation to EVERYONE who is believing, BOTH to Jew first AND to Greek (Gentile believing world). Romans 2:9-11 But because of your stubbornness & unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath & REVELATION of the righteous judgment of God, WHO WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory & honor & immortality, eternal life; but to those who are selfishly ambitious & do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath & indignation. There will be tribulation & distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first AND ALSO of the Greek, but glory & honor & peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first AND ALSO to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God. I'm sure with Mr. Knoch's consistent false teaching about the 2 administrations & 2 gospels (one to Jews separately & another to the Gentiles separately), he would want to ignore that the gospel of the Christ, what Jesus taught & the 12 apostles taught, was salvation for EVERYONE both to the Jew first & also to the Greek (Gentiles). ONE GOSPEL UNDER ONE ADMINISTRATION FOR THE SALVATION OF EVERYONE: WHO IS BELIEVING Aye, and the NT is for all, not just what Paul wrote. Galatians 3:28 Amplified Bible (AMP) 28 There is [now no distinction in regard to salvation] neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you [who believe] are all one in Christ Jesus [no one can claim a spiritual superiority]. Romans 12 Amplified Bible (AMP) 4 For just as in one [physical] body we have many parts, and these parts do not all have the same function or special use, 5 so we, who are many, are [nevertheless just] one body in Christ, and individually [we are] parts one of another [mutually dependent on each other]. All I can say is Amen and thank you Lord.
5/3/2017 2:49:23 PM	A.E. Knoch denies "born again" applies to Christians
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	As we can see from the many posts so far, A.E. Knoch is being shown to be biased in his translation of the CLV as well as promoting heretical teachings contrary to the ancient historical Christian body of truth passed down to us. It hasn't changed. It is as Jude says, 'the faith ONCE FOR ALL' delivered to the saints for which we are to contend. Another poster deliberately didn't put the right words in a search on the Concordant Publishing Concerns website where Mr. Knoch says the good news of regeneration is bad news & proudly trumpeted, 'Nothing found' as if it wasn't there & implied I was lying again (he uses lying like emptying a machine gun)talking in thin air. Such are the unreliable, false teachers on here, who try to conceal the false teaching of 'another Jesus, another spirit & another gospel (2 Cor 11:4). To see how simple it is, just go to the website & put in for the search, just two words, 'bad news.' The first thing that pops up is the gospel of John. Click on more & scroll down to the passage on John 3 & being born again (on p. 143 of Knoch's Commentary on the NT). Here is what you find: "The Lord did not give out regeneration as good news, but as BAD NEWS. This is NOT THE GOSPEL, even for the Circumcision. The evangel is always concerned with God and His Christ, never with man and his needs or efforts. OF THE LATTER NOTHING GOOD CAN BE SAID, NO EVANGEL ['GOSPEL'] CAN BE FORMULATED. THE NEW BIRTH IS NOT AN EVANGEL IN ANY SENSE. It makes a demand he has no means of meeting...A new birth will fit them for a life on earth DURING THE MILLENIAL EON [NOT NOW]." To show even more bias in promoting false teaching on his CLV translation, here is yet another mature elder, well versed in the Scriptures,examining the CLV. (he is from my home state & my brother is familiar with this local church where he is an elder) He even states he was willing to give it the benefit of the doubt on it being unbiased UNTIL HE EXAMINED IT. Here are only one of his many examination remarks as a sample. In John 1:1,2 Mr. Knoch renders "PROS" (Gk.) as "towards" and not as "with" as all other English translators. Where as, Bauer, Arndt & Ginrich in their work, 'A Greek English Lexicon of the NT & Other Early Christian Literature' gives the English "with" as the equivalent word for "PROS" when its usage is in reference to being "IN COMPANY" (Mt.13:56 ; Mk.6:3 ; 9:19 ; 14:49 ; Lk. 9:41 ; Jn. 1:1 ; 1Th. 3:4 ; 2Th. 2:5 ; 3:10 ; 1Jn. 1:2.) You might ask, why this insistence to go in opposition to all other translators? Here are Mr. Knoch's own words: ""We do NOT apologize for using this connective here. The Greek pros ALWAYS HAS THIS MEANING & is changed in translation only to conform with English idiom. VERY LITTLE OF VITAL SIGNIFICANCE can be extracted from 'with.' Not so with 'toward.' It explains the relation of the Logos to God." This fits with Mr. Knoch's stated purposes I got off his website (Concordant Publishing Concern): " The word Concordant means "agreement" and "consistent". You do not have to wonder about how we translate the words, we have a built-in & easy way for you to see how we do it. Throughout the Concordant Publishing Concern's translation, every word is analyzed and a single English word is assigned to each Hebrew word as its STANDARD (synonyms or idiomatic variants are used where necessary, for the sake of good diction). We seek to determine how we may best translate these same Scriptures, striving to do so objectively, accurately, and consistently. Our translation principles, both of vocabulary and grammatical analysis, govern all that we do. So in the above illustration Mr Knoch makes it clear: the Greek word 'PROS' ALWAYS HAS THE MEANING OF 'TOWARD.' So when the CLV was examined as to the use of PROS in the 52 times it is used in reference to being 'in company,' we would have expected it to be translated every time as 'TOWARD' but it wasn't. In fact 42 times it is translated as 'WITH!' It is only translated 'TOWARD' 10 times and guess what? Those 10 times deal directly with being 'IN COMPANY' with God. Why you might ask. Here again is Mr. Knoch's reasoning for NOT translating 'PROS' in John 1:1 as 'the Word was with God' (in company with 'the God.'): "No single object can be with itself. One statement implies a difference, the other identity." In other words, he is saying that the verse makes no sense to him because it would mean that the ONE "single object", God, was made up of TWO persons, God & the Word. They would be in company with ONE ANOTHER & IN RELATIONSHIP WITH ONE ANOTHER. This he will not have. He will not accept it. Not because of the Greek but because of his prejudice toward false teaching beliefs. (Christ is only a created being & not God & their is no Trinity) He sees what it says but will not accept it and goes about to find a way to have it say differently. Knoch, I believe, is just playing with the language here. In this context "PROS", in the Greek mind of John’s day, would convey relationship. It would not be stressing the significance of the etymological origin but the historical significance the word had developed to denote when its usage was in the context of "in company". To translate "PROS" into English as "toward" would not convey the Greek thought in this instance. It also must be true to the intent of the author. What was John’s intent? He states the Son is in the bosom of the Father, close to the Father's heart. In English we would not describe this relationship as "toward" one another but as "with" one another. John, also, states that our Fellowship is with the Father & the Son [I Cor 1:9; 2 Jn 1:1-4]. In English we would describe this relationship as "with" them & not "toward" them, as Knoch does. Like I’ve already said, he chooses "with" over "toward", except when it has to do with the Lord’s relationship and ours with the Father. Again this one example out of many demonstrates plainly that Mr. Knoch will CONSISTENTLY break his own strict 'consistent' translation principles (in this case FORTY-TWO TIMES!) & then only narrowly uses 'toward' 10 times on one specific subject--to seek to deny the Deity of Christ & the relationship of the Trinity as 3 persons yet one God by nature. One should avoid this translation in my opinion at all costs. Like I said before, the top 10 sites that people use online for Bible study (like bible study tools, biblehub, etc.) do not include the CLV as a translation NOR Mr. Knoch's Commentary. My fan who follows me around made a big deal out of it being in e-Sword. However, it isn't an online Bible study website but a downloadable Bible program & people can make a module of their own & upload it on the download site to add to e-Sword if someone WANTS TO DO THAT. Evidently someone from CPC did just that. Of the top one's listed for download, the CLV is the 210th on the list, with just 3810 downloads for a program used worldwide.
5/4/2017 12:59:09 PM	A.E. Knoch denies "born again" applies to Christians
isna_la_wica Brantford, ON 63, joined Mar. 2012	Again this one example out of many demonstrates plainly that Mr. Knoch will CONSISTENTLY break his own strict 'consistent' translation principles (in this case FORTY-TWO TIMES!) & then only narrowly uses 'toward' 10 times on one specific subject--to seek to deny the Deity of Christ & the relationship of the Trinity as 3 persons yet one God by nature. Matthew 13:56 CLV(i) 56 And his sister, are they not all with us? Whence, then, has this one all these? Matthew 13:56-58 Young's Literal Translation (YLT) 56 and his sisters -- are they not all with us? whence, then, to this one all these?' ? 4159. pothen ? Strong's Concordance pothen: from where Original Word: p??e? Part of Speech: Adverb, Interrogative Transliteration: pothen Phonetic Spelling: (poth'-en) Short Definition: whence Definition: whence, from what place. ? 4214. posos ? Strong's Concordance posos: how much? how great? Original Word: p?s??, ?, ?? Part of Speech: Correlative Or Interrogative Pronoun Transliteration: posos Phonetic Spelling: (pos'-os) Short Definition: how much, how great, how many Definition: how much, how great, how many. OK, the above is the example where he uses the right word. Now, compared to John 1:1-2: John 1:1-2 CLV(i) 1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was toward God, and God was the word. " 2 This was in the beginning toward God. John 1:1 Young's Literal Translation In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God;2 this one was in the beginning with God; ? 746. arché ? Strong's Concordance arché: beginning, origin Original Word: ????, ??, ? Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine Transliteration: arché Phonetic Spelling: (ar-khay') Short Definition: ruler, beginning Definition: (a) rule (kingly or magisterial), (b) plur: in a quasi-personal sense, almost: rulers, magistrates, (c) beginning. ----------------------- I am not getting the ""PROS" (Gk.)", stuff the same as you Doc, must be doing something wrong. But no matter what Lexicon I use, or which Translation of concordance I use and check? I do not get any thing even near to "to wards". So, one can see that the CLV differs from any other and changes the whole meaning of the word. Say, any one know what site is best for AE Knochs concordance? And Doc, any chance you have a list of the 42 verses that he changed? I would really like to know how many verses and which ones, he changed to deny the Trinity. Like, this is worse than the JW translation, from what I can see so far.
5/5/2017 7:43:59 AM	A.E. Knoch denies "born again" applies to Christians
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	I sent you a message on it, Rich.
5/6/2017 10:10:37 AM	A.E. Knoch denies "born again" applies to Christians
isna_la_wica Brantford, ON 63, joined Mar. 2012	Quote from brashdoc: I sent you a message on it, Rich. Thank you Sir !
5/10/2017 6:07:11 PM	A.E. Knoch denies "born again" applies to Christians
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	Another note about my favorite fan who continues to follow me around like a puppy dog, lying about me DELIBERATELY, quoting me out of context so he can say how WRONG I am about A.E. Knoch or that I am a German or Jew hater. Of course there is not a shred of proof of this. But it doesn't stop him from slandering me. Nazi's & their propaganda machine did that same thing. Wondering if his ancestry is German? He has gone from just ridicule & denigration to outright slander now. He keeps getting worse with very little content of truth. His newest post of 'his misinformation' is just one more example of so many I have exposed. Why does he go to such great lengths to deliberately twist what i say & then allow himself to be blatantly exposed for his deception? I suspect he believes people are not intelligent enough to see through his charades. But I suspect the real reason is to try & divert other readers from the truth of what I & other competent people are saying & warning others about this false teacher, Mr. Knoch. Take away his heretical teachings & translation & my favorite fan's belief system falls like tumbling dominoes. Here is what he did once again. He left out the right quote, twisted another quote, then added yet another quote to show nothing was supposedly said. Anyone can expose him like i do if he pulls this stuff on you. He twists my quote referring to Hebrew words--which I quoted to simply SHOW his methods of translation--but making it look like I applied it to the discussion on the Greek word, 'pros.' I didn't. He then quotes under another category the wrong Knoch quote (he substituted it not I) & shows what I supposedly said isn't there & in conclusion, I am wrong. Wow. The actual discussion & quote specifically CONCERNING 'PROS' was PRIOR to all this in my post & he conveniently SKIPPED it in his new thread. So he gives the impression that I am stupid quoting something about Hebrew words & then have a discussion on a Greek word. It was just the opposite. The actual Knoch quote on the Greek word 'PROS' comes from the Concordant article: 'Christ & Deity: Christ Compared With Deity.' It is exactly the same one-- that the competent bible teacher I was quoting used--when examining & exposing Mr Knoch's clear bias & error. How can you find the right quote? Easy. Just google part of the quote (I just put in: 'We do not apologize for using this connective here. The Greek 'pros' always has this meaning') & it takes you right to the correct article it is found in. Scroll down & you find the correct quote in context at the Concordant website under the sub-heading, 'God was the Word'. Mr Knoch also appears to want to 'hide' some of his teaching, scattering a topic under various, seemingly unrelated categories you wouldn't suspect. In one word: CONFUSING. 'God is not the author of confusion but of peace.' Also notice the blatant 'SLANDER' he makes against all the other biblically fluent Bible translators down through history up until his time (thus my favorite fan follows in his footsteps, in the same spirit). Thus Mr. Knoch proudly sets himself up as the only one who translates it correctly. This alone is like a huge full building flashing neon warning sign. Here is Mr. Knoch's in context quote: " In their anxiety to buttress the doctrine of the deity of Christ, men have not hesitated to corrupt the translations of Holy Writ & support their perversions by the authority of traditional scholarship. This is especially the case with the opening sentences in John’s account of our Lord’s life. The usual rendering is absolutely incomprehensible, though acclaimed by the followers of tradition. “The Word was with God, and the Word was God” is not a revelation. It is an obscuration. No single object can be with itself." "John was a minister of the Circumcision (Gal.2:9). He wrote for the Jews. This introduction is intended to bridge the gap between the previous revelation in the Hebrew Scriptures & the incarnation of Christ. The Word became flesh. This Logos, or EXPRESSION OF GOD, was seen in the theophanies of the God of Israel in ancient times. The verbs are in the past." "Then the Word was 'toward' God. We do NOT APOLOGIZE for using this connective here. The Greek PROS ALWAYS has this meaning & is changed in translation only to conform with English idiom. VERY LITTLE OF VITAL SIGNIFICANCE can be extracted from WITH. Not so with TOWARD. It explains the relation of the Logos to God." Notice the slander he makes toward all other translators: they are 'anxious;' i.e., fretful worriers with no trust. They do not 'HESITATE to corrupt the translations of Holy Writ.' Their 'usual rendering is absolutely incomprehensible.' Their rendering, 'the Word was WITH God & the Word was God' IS NOT A REVELATION; IT IS AN OBSCURATION.' [root: dark cover; keep from being seen; conceal, difficult to understand, uncertain & not important.] Thus he leaves us only with himself, to really determine what 'Holy Writ' is. Without him interpreting, translating & changing the Scriptures to regain the truth., we all are left confused, incomprehending a corrupt Scripture, it being totally obscured from us. Notice the clear ABSENCE or mention of the Holy Spirit in all this discussion. I can understand why the Holy Spirit left this man to his own devices & turned him over to selfish ambition, to which Scripture refers below. The fruit above is mirrored in the text below. James 3:9-16 With the tongue we praise our Lord & Father & with it we CURSE HUMAN BEINGS, who have been made in God’s likeness. Out of the SAME MOUTH come praise & cursing. My brethren, this should NOT be. Can both fresh water & salt water flow from the same spring? My brethren, can a fig tree bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Neither can a salt spring produce fresh water. 13Who is wise & understanding among you? Let them show it by their good life, by deeds done in the HUMILITY that comes from wisdom. But if you harbor bitter ENVY & SELFISH AMBITION in your hearts, do not BOAST about it or DENY THE TRUTH. Such “wisdom” does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic. For where you have envy & selfish ambition, there you find DISORDER & every EVIL practice. So many things can be pointed out in just this short passage alone but time does not allow me to deal with all of them. He starts with stating: "John was a minister of the Circumcision (Gal.2:9). He wrote for the Jews."
5/10/2017 6:08:18 PM	A.E. Knoch denies "born again" applies to Christians
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	(continued) Yet it doesn't say John was a minister to the Circumcision in that passage. No mention of minister & no mention of circumcision. Second, he is quoting a passage WITH a historical timeframe. The only 'established church' was the one AT Jerusalem, until Barnabas went & got Saul to help him disciple both Jewish & Gentile converts in the newly growing local church AT Antioch. Remember, it had been 15 years since Paul first saw Peter in Jerusalem right after his conversion. During that 15 years Paul had been out in the wilderness, then was sent by the brethren in Damascus to his home town of Tarsus, where he stayed almost 12years until Barnabas came & got him from Tarsus. The only main ministry Paul had up until then was in Antioch in seeking to grow a church there of BOTH JEWS & GENTILES. That is where these Judaizers came to stir up trouble & thus the gathering in Jerusalem. Mr. Knoch then uses the illogical fallacy of 'extrapolation' to imply the Apostle John 'WROTE FOR THE JEWS.' This is again promoting his two administrations false teaching. John didn't write his gospel, epistles & Revelation until DECADES after this & after Paul's martyrdom! John's main home base decades after this was in EPHESUS, an established Gentile church. Revelation is written to 7 Gentile churches primarily established by Paul! Back in Acts 15, John's main base was in establishing the primarily Jewish Christian church in Jerusalem, along with Peter & James, the brother of Jesus. However, Peter left Jerusalem to preach to the Diaspora. John left Jerusalem to base his home in & preach to those in Ephesus. It was after THIS much later time, that John then wrote his books of the Bible to the UNITED CHURCHES IN CHRIST, both Jew & Gentile in the one new man, the assembly of the saints in the Spirit. Churches all over the Roman empire had been established FOR MANY YEARS when John wrote. They were not considered circumcised & uncircumcised, they were united in Christ. The distinction was no longer there at the time the Apostle John wrote. The Body of Christ has changed, matured, developed. The enemies of the church were not Jew vs Gentile but heresies of the likes of the Gnostics & Nicolaitans. This Mr. Knoch ignores & disregards in his subborn insistence of a different gospel for the circumcised Jews & a different gospel for the Gentiles. Also keep in mind that though the apostles agreed AMONG THEMSELVES at the time of Acts 15, that the 3 in Jerusalem would go to the Jews & Paul & his fellow workers would go preach to the Gentiles, that didn't remain that way over time as I stated above. Also the first to preach to Gentiles & Samaritans was Jesus! Then it was Peter. Then it was Barnabas. And finally it was Paul. Also when Paul traveled to preach the one gospel (described with different words but still only one gospel) he FIRST started preaching to the Jews in the synagogues, as was his custom. He had a heart for his lost brethren & this never left him. As Jesus said, salvation comes or issues forth from the Jews and Paul also said the one gospel is salvation for the Jews FIRST & also to the Gentiles. He also sets people up by substituting the word EXPRESSION for WORD. In his continuing discussion he uses EXPRESSION more & more, hardly mentioning the Word. He get people deceived into thinking the Word is just an expression of God NOT A PERSON, the Lord Jesus Christ. And the expression is not God, only a representation of how God reveals Himself. Thus he steers people away from the truth that Jesus is of the same substance as the Father & is in relationship WITH the Father not merely an 'object' You think I am making this substitution up? Here is Mr Knoch quoted again in the sub-section of 'Christ & Deity' called 'The Word of God': "While it is not vital, it will be helpful to use the word “Expression” IN PLACE OF “Word.” The THEME of the passage is God’s EXPRESSION--the means of His manifestation or revelation." The connective 'WITH'--ORDINARILY SIGNIFIES NEARNESS & ASSOCIATION. THIS IS THE THOUGHT USUALLY FOUND IN THE EXPRESSION “with God.” We propose to show, however, that THIS IS NOT THE CASE IN THE PROLOGUE TO JOHN'S GOSPEL. It is not that the EXPRESSION was near God or in association with God, but that it directed toward God." Do you see what he is doing. He is getting your focus away from the theme of the passage on the uniquess of Jesus Christ & his nearness to & association WITH His Father, his being in the very bosom of the Father, very near to the Father's heart & affection! Nowhere in Scripture is the term, EXPRESSION, ever used of Jesus Christ to turn the person of Christ into some OBJECT of expression, devoid of any nearness or association with His Father, which is precisely what the prologue of the gospel of John does & what was his true intent. His statement above: "No single object can be with itself" shows his heretical beliefs of no Trinity & Jesus isn't God; thus he EXCLUDES ANY ACCEPTANCE of 'with' God in this specifically chosen passage (even though it is the NORMAL, USUAL translation of the Greek by his own admission). Yet it plainly show that what he calls 'a single object' is none other than the living Word of God, the Lord Jesus Christ, A PERSON in very close association WITH another Person, His Father. It is not some substituted 'expression' but two Persons in close relationship with one another. the Son can be WITH the Father & has been since eternity past & continues into eternity future. He deliberately CHANGES the normal usual translation based on his own heretical belief. He changes the Scripture. Here is how a heretic thinks & acts, adding to or taking away from or changing the Scriptures, to his own destruction. He wouldn't dare translate the 'Word' with the substitute phrase 'EXPRESSION', for then he would be totally naked & exposed in his complete bias & distortion of Scripture. So he subtlely REPLACES it instead in people's minds & uses repetition as the method to try & sway people away from what the Scripture normally & usually means. If you use it enough & say it enough, soon people may start to believe it. That is how propogandists do it & our heretic is a great propogandist it seems. In addition he tries to 'poison' the minds of his readers against ALL THE FORMER translators of Scripture as those terrible 'corrupters of Holy Writ.'He then holds out himself as the lone & ONLY hope for accurately translating & 'REGAINING' the Scriptures back to what they really mean. Much, much more could be said but I will stop here. I now understand how the early church fathers felt in dealing with the myriad of false teachers & their writings in the early centuries of Christianity. And why Jude, the brother of Jesus, exhorts us to 'contend for the faith once for all delivered to the saints.' And why we must 'be strong in the Lord & in the strength of His might' putting on the 'whole armor of God' & fighting the 'good fight of faith.'
5/10/2017 9:21:59 PM	A.E. Knoch denies "born again" applies to Christians
isna_la_wica Brantford, ON 63, joined Mar. 2012	Nazi's & their propaganda machine did that same thing. Wondering if his ancestry is German? Doubtful, at least Germans will fight, that guy is scared to fight. So he resorts to his distorting what others write from safety .He is all bark, no bite, a Chihuahua
5/11/2017 10:55:13 AM	A.E. Knoch denies "born again" applies to Christians
isna_la_wica Brantford, ON 63, joined Mar. 2012	As we can see from the many posts so far, A.E. Knoch is being shown to be biased in his translation of the CLV as well as promoting heretical teachings contrary to the ancient historical Christian body of truth passed down to us. It hasn't changed. It is as Jude says, 'the faith ONCE FOR ALL' delivered to the saints for which we are to contend. Quite amazing really. All these latter day sects, discovering that for 2,000 plus years, a great conspiracy was on going! And the 'real truth" was hidden until they came around in the 1800`s or in Knoch`s case, the 1900`s and discovered it. And what a Conspiracy it has been, enough to make a pot smoking , tin hatter Illuminati follower blush! Hundreds of Translators, over 20 centuries, co - ordinate a complex conspiracy , involving at a minimum 3 different languages. Thousands of different denominations, theologians, teachers and millions of those who studied Scripture. And we all kept quiet, and hid the true Gospel until they came along. And here I thought the OJ Conspiracy theory stretched the seams of credibility till it was bursting ! Now, why would we do that? Just to invent the Trinity? Pray tell, what benefit would there be, in any possible way? These twits make no sense at all. The doctrine of the Trinity gives no body extra power, money, what ever. But that is what they claim.
5/22/2017 10:14:34 AM	A.E. Knoch denies "born again" applies to Christians
mindya Vancouver, BC 64, joined Jan. 2009	bump for doc....
5/22/2017 9:14:58 PM	A.E. Knoch denies "born again" applies to Christians
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	http://www.theheraldofgodsgrace.org/Knoch/refuted1.htm This is an article refuting Mr Knoch's refutation of A.W. Pink's article entitled "Universalism Refuted, Eternal Punishment Established From the Scriptures.' Sounds like the tactics of my favorite fan on here & the lone fan of Mr. Knoch, who continually ridicules me & quotes me out of context & distorts what I say, sometimes making it look like I am saying just the opposite. Watch as Mr. Knoch does the same things as my favorite fan on here, ridiculing & denigrating one of the most influential Christian writers & teachers of the 20th century. I will also include the comments of the writer of this article, pointing out the lack of the fruit of the Spirit & Mr. Knoch's errors. 2 Tim 2:24,25 CLV "Now the Lord's slave ought not to be fighting, but to be gentle to all, apt to teach, bearing with evil, in meekness training those who are antagonizing, if perchance in time God may give them repentance to come into a realization of the truth. "We cannot help a feeling of sorrow that these brethren, whom God has used for the truth, should FALL SO FAR from the STANDARD SET in the second quotation." Watch as the article unfolds & Mr Knoch does the exact same thing of which he ACCUSES Pink & Gabelein! What hypocrisy! This is typical of Mr. Knoch & my favorite fan. The above quote makes it look like these two have fallen from grace! They have really fallen a long ways. Also note the CLV translation above: 'in meekness TRAINING THOSE WHO ARE ANTAGONIZING.' Now Mr Knoch has Christians supposedly training unbelieving false teachers! There is no such teaching in Scripture! Christians do not teach nonchristians or false teachers; they rebuke them & correct them. In meekness yes, but they do not train them; they train disciples, as Jesus trained His disciples. But they don't train false teachers. Such is the CLV translation, much harder to read than the KJV with its antiquated language & much more disjointed. No wonder so few people use it. Only one sentence later he viciously again attacks Mr. Pink, slandering & condemning this godly man, who had great compassion for the lost, as he demonstrated repeatedly in his life. "The spirit which pervades the article is but a REFLEX of the doctrine which it teaches. Those who do not hesitate to consign the majority of mankind to endless torture NATURALLY are not tender of the feelings of any of God's creatures." Notice the vituperative manner he uses when he states: the spirit which PERVADES the article: i.e., not of the Spirit of God obviously. is but a REFLEX of the doctrine--it is simply an involuntary knee-jerk reaction those who do not hesitate--implies they eagerly jump forward to damn people these godly teachers of Scripture NATURALLY ARE NOT TENDER of any feelings of others We are barely into the article & this is the multi-faceted ad hominem attack! Does this sound like a man who is NATURALLY TENDER to the feelings of his fellow creatures & these two brothers in Christ, in his own words? Obviously not. Is he supposedly 'in meekness training those who are antagonizing?' Obviously not. The hypocrisy is so evident & we have just began this article. It gets worse. "As God gains so few they care little about convincing or convicting those they deem in error. Let us not judge these brethren too harshly." they care little--again--judgmental character assassination of people who cared greatly too harshly--such a patronizing phrase, these poor people, they can't help themselves; it just comes NATURALLY to them. "If we believed as they do, we should probably pursue the same course. We would gladly omit the offensive terms in the following quotations, But they are so interwoven that it is difficult to do so, and we may be misjudged." *...we may be misjudged. Such patronizing words again, placing themselves proudly above these two men, looking down on them in their condescension & condemnation. What he doesn't include in this supposed refuting of Mr. Pink is the PURPOSE for the article in exposing the CLV and Condordant Publishing Concern & warning people to steer clear of this dangerously heretical false teacher. Here is what the writer of this article DOES INCLUDE. "That this article is not the ordinary kind, but is considered crushing & conclusive by the editor of 'Our Hope' [periodical] is evident from his editorial concerning it. After suggesting that we believe the lie of the serpent "Ye shall not surely die" (though we teach that the unbeliever dies twice), he continues": "The article in this issue by Mr. A.W. Pink is an excellent one. It completely annihilates the inventions of old, restated & dished up in the `Concordant Version of the Bible,' by a Mr. Knoch in Los Angeles. We understand that some believers on the coast have listened to these miserable perversions of the faith. We hope the article will be used IN THEIR DELIVERANCE." Continuing on with Mr. Knoch's condemnations: "We cannot bear to be classed with those who, according to their reputed teaching, dishonor our Saviour, and our God." "In it he denies the solemn truth that we are living in an era when men turn away from the truth (2 Tim. 4:4). As he does not believe God's express declarations as to this matter, we find him continually turning away from the Scriptures themselves to find some human authority on which to lean. The tradition of the elders is, to him, the voice of God." "The 1611 translation of the Bible does not "affirm the everlasting punishment of those who die in their sins." This is said of the nations at the left hand of the Son of Man when He comes in His glory (Matt.25:31-46), not of untold billions "who die in their sins." "Those who degrade the word of God below the words of men, or so PERVERT THE WORD OF GOD as to apply a statement made to a particular class at a special time to all men at all times, DESERVE TO BE IN DARKNESS." I must stop here. Do you see what Mr. Knoch has done? He has condemned Mr. Pink of teaching on eternal punishment of the wicked IN DARKNESS, and yet, turns around and says these men who teach this 'DESERVE TO BE IN DARKNESS! And he doesn't even understand what he has just done in HIS condemnation or the hypocrisy of it! I have to add one more, as to the arrogant pride of this man & his ego-centricity: "Seeing that the Scriptures plainly teach that this economy will end in apostasy, THE PRESUMPTION IS THAT ALL DOCTRINES WHICH ARE COMMONLY RECEIVED THROUGHOUT CHRISTIANDOM--ARE FALSE." Only his translation is the pure one, superceding all others; only his pure doctrines (totally contrary to the ancient historical teachings of Christianity that have been passed down to us by the prophets, the apostles & Christ Jesus Himself) are the correct ones & all others ARE APOSTATE TEACHINGS! This is the core issue of all cults & Mr. Knoch is not lacking in making this known. Please read the rest of the article & the author's further exposure & rebuttal of Mr. Knoch. I can't write anymore right now. As Mr. Gabelein stated, 'these perversions of the faith' become blatantly obvious the more one reads what Mr. Knoch taught contrary to almost every teaching of Christianity. Others can feel free to read the article & quote this article & expose even more.
5/26/2017 11:31:30 AM	A.E. Knoch denies "born again" applies to Christians
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	Quick note on my favorite friend following my posts around, vainly trying to discredit me in his multitude of new threads he starts, at least one or two a week. Now he says he has proof positive that my beliefs are not Scripture based. Really? Let's examine briefly what I said & what he said & see which one matches up with Scripture. What I said: Jesus said you cannot kill the soul. What he said: "Of course, we all know Jesus NEVER said you "cannot kill the soul." Here is what his almost solitary, favorite Bible he quotes says: Mt 10:28(CLV) [Jesus speaking]: "And do not fear those who are killing the body, YET ARE NOT ABLE TO KILL THE SOUL. Yet be fearing Him, rather, Who is able to destroy the soul as well as the body in Gehenna." When you compare over 60 translations of the Bible in e-Sword Bible program, almost everyone says the same thing: Jesus DID TEACH you are not able to kill the soul. ASV (2015): Be not afraid of them that kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul ESV: And do not fear those who kill the body but CANNOT KILL THE SOUL. ALT: "And stop fearing the ones killing the body, but are not able to kill the soul. ERV: "Don't be afraid of people. They can kill the body, but they cannot kill the soul. NIV: Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. So, according to Scripture, WE ALL KNOW JESUS DID ACTUALLY & TRUTHFULLY SAY YOU CANNOT, YOU ARE NOT ABLE TO KILL THE SOUL. So much for: "Proof positive that bashingdoc's beliefs are not Scripture-based. Proof positive." He actually reinforced what I posted about the parallel passages in Ezekiel 18 & 20 & 33 & their showing the meaning of: 'the soul that sinneth, it shall die.' In the passage he quotes from Ezekiel 18 (only 3 verses though), it shows that the term, 'the soul that sins' is interchangeable with the son that sins or the father that sins or the righteous MAN that sins or the wicked MAN that sins, etc. The soul is equated with being a person, a human being, such as a father or a sin. When a person sins, that person will die. That is taught from Genesis to Revelation. The apostle James says similar: James 5:20 "Let him know that the one having brought back A SINNER from the error of his way will save HIS SOUL FROM DEATH & will cover over a multitude of sins. James 1:21 Therefore, get rid of all moral filth & every expression of evil & humbly receive the word planted in you, which can save your souls. Jesus & James make a DISTINCTION between a person described as a soul that sins & the person HAVING a soul (as well as having a spirit & a body also) & that soul that a person HAS, IT CAN BE SAVED FROM DEATH. Born once, die TWICE. Born twice, die only once. If you are only physically born, when you sin, you become spiritually dead & if you die physically, your sins remain & you remain spiritually dead. You will not only face the first death, physical death but you will face the power of SECOND DEATH over them, in the lake of fire, the Gehenna of fire. But if one is born twice, once physically, once spiritually & regenerated & given eternal life, the very life of God, then they only experience physical death, not spiritual death. And he is right about my SUMMARIZING Mr. Knoch's words as 'REALLY BAD NEWS & DISAPPOINTING.' What Mr. Knoch actually said if I was quoting him rather than summarizing him from his own teachings was: "The Lord did not give out regeneration as good news, but as BAD NEWS. This is not the gospel, even for the Circumcision. The evangel is always concerned with God and His Christ, never with man and his needs or efforts. Of the latter NOTHING GOOD can be said, NO EVANGEL (i.e., good news) can be formulated. The new birth is not an evangel IN ANY SENSE." "The Beatitudes will find their fulfillment in the kingdom of the heavens, when Messiah comes again and establishes His millennial reign. Till then most of them PROVE TO BE A PRACTICAL DISAPPOINTMENT. The merciful often do not obtain mercy. The meek do not receive an allotment in the land or the earth. Not only that, but they never shall. A meek unbeliever will receive no allotment whatever. A meek believer is promised every blessedness among the celestials (Eph. 1:3). It would be a BITTER DISAPPOINTMENT to him to have an allotment on the earth or in the land of Israel. There is no happiness in this beatitude for us." So if I summarized Mr Knoch's teaching as 'really bad news' my emphasis was on what he actually said in the above quote, that regeneration is not good news but bad news, that this isn't the gospel, even for Jews. The new birth, as Jesus & Paul & Peter & James & Jeremiah the prophet & Ezekiel the prophet & Isaiah the prophet taught IS NOT AN EVANGEL (GOOD NEWS) in ANY SENSE. If that isn't summarized as really bad news, I don't know what is. It is the opposite of what the whole of Scripture teaches. So yes, Mr. Knoch did not actually say 'really bad news' as I summarized his whole teaching but you can see he did say the good news of regeneration, being born again by the Spirit--AS BAD NEWS, not an evangel IN ANY SENSE! So if he insists I misquoted A.E Knoch (when I summarized it) as saying 'really bad news' then it is true he didn't actually say those 3 words but as I have shown, the summary of what he actually said shows it doesn't change his false teaching. I also said a 'GREAT DISAPPOINTMENT' & 'DISAPPOINTMENT' in summarizing Mr. Knoch. As I have shown, Mr. Knoch actually said, 'a practical disappoint' & a 'bitter disappointment.' So I admit he didn't actually say a 'great' disappointment but again anyone can see my summary isn't even as forceful as what Mr. Knoch actually said about the beatitudes as not being applicable to us or the Jews until after the Millenium. It is not only a great disappointment in summary but a practical & a bitter disappointment in Mr. Knoch's own words. It doesn't change his false teaching. But I have to clap for him too. He did do a great job of answering a certain TUB person's questions & his list of supposed OT commands of a fictitious cruel god he had made up that has no resemblence to the one true God of both the OT & the NT. I won't dialogue with this person, he is so caustic & aspersive in his denunciations of Christians, the Bible & almost every major ancient Christian teaching passed down to us. I commend him for taking on this vile, maligning individual. This individual blew him off & castigated him like everyone else on here. [Edited 5/26/2017 11:32:47 AM ]
5/30/2017 8:36:37 AM	A.E. Knoch denies "born again" applies to Christians
cupocheer Assumption, IL 68, joined May. 2010

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