Open Door Policy

2/23/2017 8:48:41 AM	Open Door Policy
isna_la_wica Brantford, ON 63, joined Mar. 2012	Pope FrancisVerified account ?@Pontifex Follow More Jesus entrusted to Peter the keys to open the entrance to the kingdom of heaven, and not to close it. I saw the above twitter message being quoted this morning and found it interesting, so looked into it deeper and ran across this article, below. Do, you agree? I do. Pope Francis teaches that everyone is saved! Wow! (Hold on. Wait a second.) Carl E. Olson By now you've heard about the Pope's astounding remark about the redemption of all men: In the Holy Spirit, every individual and all people have become, through the Cross and Resurrection of Christ, children of God, partakers in the divine nature and heirs to eternal life. All are redeemed and called to share in glory in Jesus Christ, without any distinction of language, race, nation or culture. The Good News which Christ proclaimed and which the Church continues to proclaim, in accordance with the Lord's will, must be preached "to all creation" and "to the ends of the earth". Oops, sorry—that was actually Pope John Paul II, back in 1981 in Manila. Let's see. Hold on a second. Try this: God our Savior…desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, the testimony to which was borne at the proper time. … For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all men. Whoops! That's the Apostle Paul, writing a couple of thousand years ago to Timothy and Titus (1 Tim 2:3-6; Tit 2:11). My apologies. Here goes: But, if Christian precepts prevail, the respective classes will not only be united in the bonds of friendship, but also in those of brotherly love. For they will understand and feel that all men are children of the same common Father, who is God; that all have alike the same last end, which is God Himself, who alone can make either men or angels absolutely and perfectly happy; that each and all are redeemed and made sons of God, by Jesus Christ, "the first-born among many brethren"; that the blessings of nature and the gifts of grace belong to the whole human race in common, and that from none except the unworthy is withheld the inheritance of the kingdom of Heaven. "If sons, heirs also; heirs indeed of God, and co-heirs with Christ." No, no, no. Wrong pope! That was Pope Leo XIII, back in 1891. How embarrassing that I cannot get my quotes right. I'm doing my best, I really am. By his glorious Cross Christ has won salvation for all men. He redeemed them from the sin that held them in bondage. … Created in the image of the one God and equally endowed with rational souls, all men have the same nature and the same origin. Redeemed by the sacrifice of Christ, all are called to participate in the same divine beatitude: all therefore enjoy an equal dignity. You're onto me: that was the Catechism of the Catholic Church (pars 1741, 1934). Ummm. Try this one: Since all men possess a rational soul and are created in God's likeness, since they have the same nature and origin, have been redeemed by Christ and enjoy the same divine calling and destiny, the basic equality of all must receive increasingly greater recognition. Nope, that's Gaudiem et spes, from Vatican II (par 29). Okay, okay, here is what Pope Francis really said, in part, yesterday: “On the contrary, the Lord has created us in His image and likeness, and has given us this commandment in our heart: Do good and do not do evil. The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, what about the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone! And this Blood makes us first class children of God! We are created children in the likeness of God and the Blood of Christ has redeemed us all! And we all have a duty to do good. And this commandment for everyone to do good, I think, is a beautiful path towards peace. If we, with everyone doing his own part; if we do good to others, if we meet there, doing good, and we go slowly, gently, little by little, we will make that culture of meeting: we need that so much. We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good! We shall meet there.” As you can see, he broke radical new ground. No, of course he didn't. But you might not know that by reading articles that state, "Pope Francis rocked some religious and atheist minds today when he declared that everyone was redeemed through Jesus, including atheists." If he indeed "rocked" the minds of some Catholics, it only suggests that they aren't paying attention to Scripture and Church teaching. Take it away, Fr. Dwight Longenecker: Unfortunately for those who wish to paint Pope Francis as a lovable liberal, in fact, the Pope is simply affirming certain truths that any somewhat knowledgable Catholic will uphold. First, that Christ died to redeem the whole world. We can distinguish his redemptive work from the acceptance of salvation. He redeemed the whole world. However, many will reject that saving work. In affirming the universality of Christ’s redemptive work we are not universalists. To say that he redeemed the whole world is not to conclude that all will be saved. Secondly, the Pope is also affirming that all humans are created in God’s image and are therefore created good. Yes, created good, but that goodness is wounded by original sin. Thirdly, he is affirming that all men and women are obliged to pursue what is beautiful, good and true. Natural virtue is possible–even obligatory, but natural virtue on its own is not sufficient for salvation. Grace is necessary to advance beyond natural virtue to bring the soul to salvation. The Pope does not say atheists being good on their own will be saved. He says they, like all men, are redeemed by Christ’s death and their good works are the starting place where we can meet with them–the implication being “meet with them in an encounter that leads eventually to faith in Christ.” Search Results Pope Francis teaches that everyone is saved! Wow! (Hold on. Wait a ... www.catholicworldreport.com/.../pope_francis_teaches_that_everyone_is_saved_wo... Meet singles at DateHookup.dating, we're 100% free! Join now!
2/23/2017 8:56:44 AM	Open Door Policy
isna_la_wica Brantford, ON 63, joined Mar. 2012	I think the door is open. But some simply reject it. In many ways, this reminds me of the by CS Lewis, "The Great Divorce" and his fictitious depiction of the after life in it. The working title was Who Goes Home? but the final name was changed at the publisher's insistence.[citation needed] The title refers to William Blake's poem The Marriage of Heaven and Hell The Great Divorce - Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Divorce " The Marriage of Heaven and Hell (Engraved circa 1790) The Argument Rintrah roars, and shakes his fires in the burden’d air; Hungry clouds swag on the deep. Once meek, and in a perilous path, The just man kept his course along The vale of death. Roses are planted where thorns grow, And on the barren heath Sing the honey bees. Then the perilous path was planted, And a river and a spring On every cliff and tomb, And on the bleachèd bones Red clay brought forth; Till the villain left the paths of ease, To walk in perilous paths, and drive The just man into barren climes. Now the sneaking serpent walks In mild humility, And the just man rages in the wilds Where lions roam. Rintrah roars, and shakes his fires in the burden’d air; Hungry clouds swag on the deep. AS a new heaven is begun, and it is now thirty-three years since its advent, the Eternal Hell revives. And Io! Swedenborg is the Angel sitting at the tomb: his writings are the linen clothes folded up. Now is the dominion of Edom, and the return of Adam into Paradise. See Isaiah xxxiv and xxxv chap. 1 Without Contraries is no progression. Attraction and Repulsion, Reason and Energy, Love and Hate, are necessary to Human existence. 2 From these contraries spring what the religious call Good and Evil. Good is the passive that obeys Reason. Evil is the active springing from Energy. 3 Good is Heaven. Evil is Hell. The Marriage of Heaven and Hell. William Blake. 1908. The Poetical ... www.bartleby.com › Verse › William Blake › Poetical Works 4
2/23/2017 9:34:58 AM	Open Door Policy
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 64, joined Feb. 2008	Catholics make a distiction between redemption and salvation. The whole human race has been redeemed by Christ's Blood, but only faithful followers of Jesus Christ (Catholics in good standing) go to Heaven. "He cannot have God as a Father who does not have the Church as a mother." --St. Cyprian (200-258 a.d.) Having said this, it is true that the Catholic Church does have an open door policy---anyone may join who wishes to fo so. [Edited 2/23/2017 9:36:23 AM ]
2/23/2017 10:01:37 AM	Open Door Policy
kb2222 Jacksonville, FL 77, joined Apr. 2011	The teachings of the church bind the mind of man to the book the church compiled. AS I have said: It should be obvious to all God/Jesus loving and sane people on this site that it is inhumane wickedness to stone and burn people to death at the stake for all sorts of absurd reasons and to slaughter men, women, children, infants and even animals in the name of God. That's not the nature of God that Jesus came into the world and revealed and if you professed Christians can't accept what Jesus revealed you most certainly are NOT His true followers. Christians should be striving to believe as Jesus believed and thus to become more like Him - and this cannot be done without rejecting all scripture in the book the church compiled that is incompatible with His teachings.
2/23/2017 10:54:28 AM	Open Door Policy
isna_la_wica Brantford, ON 63, joined Mar. 2012	Quote from kb2222: The teachings of the church bind the mind of man to the book the church compiled. AS I have said: It should be obvious to all God/Jesus loving and sane people on this site that it is inhumane wickedness to stone and burn people to death at the stake for all sorts of absurd reasons and to slaughter men, women, children, infants and even animals in the name of God. That's not the nature of God that Jesus came into the world and revealed and if you professed Christians can't accept what Jesus revealed you most certainly are NOT His true followers. Christians should be striving to believe as Jesus believed and thus to become more like Him - and this cannot be done without rejecting all scripture in the book the church compiled that is incompatible with His teachings. Not talking about the Church, rather about what Francis is saying ere. I am not a Roman Catholic KB. Pope FrancisVerified account ?@Pontifex Follow More Jesus entrusted to Peter the keys to open the entrance to the kingdom of heaven, and not to close it. I actually looked up Urantia and their views of redemption, in paper 89. Maybe there are other papers that deal with that? Not really sure what they are saying. But I think, it says no redemption is necessary. 8. Redemption and Covenants 89:8.1 (982.5) Sacrificial redemption and temple prostitution were in reality modifications of human sacrifice. Next came the mock sacrifice of daughters. This ceremony consisted in bloodletting, with dedication to lifelong virginity, and was a moral reaction to the older temple harlotry. In more recent times virgins dedicated themselves to the service of tending the sacred temple fires. * 89:8.2 (982.6) Men eventually conceived the idea that the offering of some part of the body could take the place of the older and complete human sacrifice. Physical mutilation was also considered to be an acceptable substitute. Hair, nails, blood, and even fingers and toes were sacrificed. The later and well-nigh universal ancient rite of circumcision was an outgrowth of the cult of partial sacrifice; it was purely sacrificial, no thought of hygiene being attached thereto. Men were circumcised; women had their ears pierced. 89:8.3 (983.1) Subsequently it became the custom to bind fingers together instead of cutting them off. Shaving the head and cutting the hair were likewise forms of religious devotion. The making of eunuchs was at first a modification of the idea of human sacrifice. Nose and lip piercing is still practiced in Africa, and tattooing is an artistic evolution of the earlier crude scarring of the body. 89:8.4 (983.2) The custom of sacrifice eventually became associated, as a result of advancing teachings, with the idea of the covenant. At last, the gods were conceived of as entering into real agreements with man; and this was a major step in the stabilization of religion. Law, a covenant, takes the place of luck, fear, and superstition. 89:8.5 (983.3) Man could never even dream of entering into a contract with Deity until his concept of God had advanced to the level whereon the universe controllers were envisioned as dependable. And man’s early idea of God was so anthropomorphic that he was unable to conceive of a dependable Deity until he himself became relatively dependable, moral, and ethical. 89:8.6 (983.4) But the idea of making a covenant with the gods did finally arrive. Evolutionary man eventually acquired such moral dignity that he dared to bargain with his gods. And so the business of offering sacrifices gradually developed into the game of man’s philosophic bargaining with God. And all this represented a new device for insuring against bad luck or, rather, an enhanced technique for the more definite purchase of prosperity. Do not entertain the mistaken idea that these early sacrifices were a free gift to the gods, a spontaneous offering of gratitude or thanksgiving; they were not expressions of true worship. 89:8.7 (983.5) Primitive forms of prayer were nothing more nor less than bargaining with the spirits, an argument with the gods. It was a kind of bartering in which pleading and persuasion were substituted for something more tangible and costly. The developing commerce of the races had inculcated the spirit of trade and had developed the shrewdness of barter; and now these traits began to appear in man’s worship methods. And as some men were better traders than others, so some were regarded as better prayers than others. The prayer of a just man was held in high esteem. A just man was one who had paid all accounts to the spirits, had fully discharged every ritual obligation to the gods. 89:8.8 (983.6) Early prayer was hardly worship; it was a bargaining petition for health, wealth, and life. And in many respects prayers have not much changed with the passing of the ages. They are still read out of books, recited formally, and written out for emplacement on wheels and for hanging on trees, where the blowing of the winds will save man the trouble of expending his own breath. I am only quoting the part 8, but have my copy of it open. I my self do not really subscribe to the doctrine of inherited sin. We sin all by our selves. reading #2 in that paper, its hard to determine if sin even exists, they keep going on about the history of it and such. Am I interpreting it properly, that : A] Sin is only a perception? And : B] No redemption is required then?
2/23/2017 11:23:51 AM	Open Door Policy
isna_la_wica Brantford, ON 63, joined Mar. 2012	Quote from ludlowlowell: Catholics make a distiction between redemption and salvation. The whole human race has been redeemed by Christ's Blood, but only faithful followers of Jesus Christ (Catholics in good standing) go to Heaven. "He cannot have God as a Father who does not have the Church as a mother." --St. Cyprian (200-258 a.d.) Having said this, it is true that the Catholic Church does have an open door policy---anyone may join who wishes to fo so. How does the Catholic Church, define it self? 748 "Christ is the light of humanity; and it is, accordingly, the heart-felt desire of this sacred Council, being gathered together in the Holy Spirit, that, by proclaiming his Gospel to every creature, it may bring to all men that light of Christ which shines out visibly from the Church." 135 These words open the Second Vatican Council's Dogmatic Constitution on the Church. By choosing this starting point, the Council demonstrates that the article of faith about the Church depends entirely on the articles concerning Christ Jesus. The Church has no other light than Christ's; according to a favorite image of the Church Fathers, the Church is like the moon, all its light reflected from the sun. Note, that it is not the "church" that resembles the Sun ( we could use Son here)and produces the "light", rather it is reflective of the Moon. So be careful not to blur that line, and make it idolatrous. For if you worship the moon, instead of the Son, well you catch my drift. Redemption comes form the Son, not the church. The Church is supposed to reflect it. 749 The article concerning the Church also depends entirely on the article about the Holy Spirit, which immediately precedes it. "Indeed, having shown that the Spirit is the source and giver of all holiness, we now confess that it is he who has endowed the Church with holiness." 136 The Church is, in a phrase used by the Fathers, the place "where the Spirit flourishes." 137 And so we have the above clarification of what was mentioned above and also that the Catholic Church acknowledges that. 750 To believe that the Church is "holy" and "catholic," and that she is "one" and "apostolic" (as the Nicene Creed adds), is inseparable from belief in God, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. In the Apostles' Creed we profess "one Holy Church" (Credo . . . Ecclesiam), and not to believe in the Church, so as not to confuse God with his works and to attribute clearly to God's goodness all the gifts he has bestowed on his Church. 138 Read that carefully: I stress:"Ecclesiam), and not to believe in the Church, so as not to confuse God with his works and to attribute clearly to God's goodness all the gifts he has bestowed on his Church." In other words, do not confuse the moon with being the sun. The moon, gets its light( blessings) from the Sun. Have you read Lumen Gentium"? In the section "The Constitution of the Church" the assessment reads: "The Catholic Church professes that it is the one, holy catholic and apostolic Church of Christ; this it does not and could not deny. But in its Constitution the Church now solemnly acknowledges that the Holy Ghost is truly active in the churches and communities separated from itself. To these other Christian Churches the Catholic Church is bound in many ways: through reverence for God's word in the Scriptures; through the fact of baptism; through other sacraments which they recognize." 5. The non-Christian may not be blamed for his ignorance of Christ and his Church; salvation is open to him also, if he seeks God sincerely and if he follows the commands of his conscience, for through this means the Holy Ghost acts upon all men; this divine action is not confined within the limited boundaries of the visible Church." 6 Again, that analogy about the Sun ( Son), and Moon (church) has meaning to this. The Moons light does not just shine on some people in who inhabit the same geographic location. And you seem to imply that it does Lud. If you claim, it only shines on Roman Catholics, then you are implying, the sun is the church, and not the moon. And we get back to this: "Ecclesiam), and not to believe in the Church, so as not to confuse God with his works and to attribute clearly to God's goodness all the gifts he has bestowed on his Church." Maybe you are not implying that? But when you say Catholic and negate the Roman part in front? Are you saying all Catholics are Roman? [sorry, I forgot to cite where I quoted from: CCC - PART 1 SECTION 2 CHAPTER 3 ARTICLE 9 PARAGRAPH 3 www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm And Religious Tolerance} My apologies, I took some from one or the other. - [Edited 2/23/2017 11:26:15 AM ]
2/23/2017 11:28:44 AM	Open Door Policy
kb2222 Jacksonville, FL 77, joined Apr. 2011	Quote from kb2222: The teachings of the church bind the mind of man to the book the church compiled. AS I have said: It should be obvious to all God/Jesus loving and sane people on this site that it is inhumane wickedness to stone and burn people to death at the stake for all sorts of absurd reasons and to slaughter men, women, children, infants and even animals in the name of God. That's not the nature of God that Jesus came into the world and revealed and if you professed Christians can't accept what Jesus revealed you most certainly are NOT His true followers. Christians should be striving to believe as Jesus believed and thus to become more like Him - and this cannot be done without rejecting all scripture in the book the church compiled that is incompatible with His teachings. Quote from isna_la_wica: Not talking about the Church, rather about what Francis is saying ere. I am not a Roman Catholic KB. I understand. My post was initiated in opposition to Ludlow posting... "He cannot have God as a Father who does not have the Church as a mother." In any case, what are your thoughts in regard to what I said, isna?
2/23/2017 11:38:51 AM	Open Door Policy
kb2222 Jacksonville, FL 77, joined Apr. 2011	Quote from isna_la_wica: I am only quoting the part 8, but have my copy of it open. I my self do not really subscribe to the doctrine of inherited sin. We sin all by our selves. reading #2 in that paper, its hard to determine if sin even exists, they keep going on about the history of it and such. Am I interpreting it properly, that : A] Sin is only a perception? And : B] No redemption is required then? Well, I think it can be truthfully said that sin is indeed a perception of God which God desires man to share and reframe from doing. Here is a UB quote for your hopefully edification. 4. Evil, Sin, and Iniquity 148:4.1 (1659.8) It was the habit of Jesus two evenings each week to hold special converse with individuals who desired to talk with him, in a certain secluded and sheltered corner of the Zebedee garden. At one of these evening conversations in private Thomas asked the Master this question: “Why is it necessary for men to be born of the spirit in order to enter the kingdom? Is rebirth necessary to escape the control of the evil one? Master, what is evil?” When Jesus heard these questions, he said to Thomas: 148:4.2 (1660.1) “Do not make the mistake of confusing evil with the evil one, more correctly the iniquitous one. He whom you call the evil one is the son of self-love, the high administrator who knowingly went into deliberate rebellion against the rule of my Father and his loyal Sons. But I have already vanquished these sinful rebels. Make clear in your mind these different attitudes toward the Father and his universe. Never forget these laws of relation to the Father’s will: 148:4.3 (1660.2) “Evil is the unconscious or unintended transgression of the divine law, the Father’s will. Evil is likewise the measure of the imperfectness of obedience to the Father’s will. 148:4.4 (1660.3) “Sin is the conscious, knowing, and deliberate transgression of the divine law, the Father’s will. Sin is the measure of unwillingness to be divinely led and spiritually directed. 148:4.5 (1660.4) “Iniquity is the willful, determined, and persistent transgression of the divine law, the Father’s will. Iniquity is the measure of the continued rejection of the Father’s loving plan of personality survival and the Sons’ merciful ministry of salvation. 148:4.6 (1660.5) “By nature, before the rebirth of the spirit, mortal man is subject to inherent evil tendencies, but such natural imperfections of behavior are neither sin nor iniquity. Mortal man is just beginning his long ascent to the perfection of the Father in Paradise. To be imperfect or partial in natural endowment is not sinful. Man is indeed subject to evil, but he is in no sense the child of the evil one unless he has knowingly and deliberately chosen the paths of sin and the life of iniquity. Evil is inherent in the natural order of this world, but sin is an attitude of conscious rebellion which was brought to this world by those who fell from spiritual light into gross darkness. 148:4.7 (1660.6) “You are confused, Thomas, by the doctrines of the Greeks and the errors of the Persians. You do not understand the relationships of evil and sin because you view mankind as beginning on earth with a perfect Adam and rapidly degenerating, through sin, to man’s present deplorable estate. But why do you refuse to comprehend the meaning of the record which discloses how Cain, the son of Adam, went over into the land of Nod and there got himself a wife? And why do you refuse to interpret the meaning of the record which portrays the sons of God finding wives for themselves among the daughters of men? 148:4.8 (1660.7) “Men are, indeed, by nature evil, but not necessarily sinful. The new birth — the baptism of the spirit — is essential to deliverance from evil and necessary for entrance into the kingdom of heaven, but none of this detracts from the fact that man is the son of God. Neither does this inherent presence of potential evil mean that man is in some mysterious way estranged from the Father in heaven so that, as an alien, foreigner, or stepchild, he must in some manner seek for legal adoption by the Father. All such notions are born, first, of your misunderstanding of the Father and, second, of your ignorance of the origin, nature, and destiny of man. 148:4.9 (1660.8) “The Greeks and others have taught you that man is descending from godly perfection steadily down toward oblivion or destruction; I have come to show that man, by entrance into the kingdom, is ascending certainly and surely up to God and divine perfection. Any being who in any manner falls short of the divine and spiritual ideals of the eternal Father’s will is potentially evil, but such beings are in no sense sinful, much less iniquitous.
2/23/2017 12:40:52 PM	Open Door Policy
isna_la_wica Brantford, ON 63, joined Mar. 2012	Will answer this right now, have to come back later to the passage you quoted, I need to read hard copies to understand better, and want to look stuff. So, what do I think of this? Quote from kb2222: The teachings of the church bind the mind of man to the book the church compiled. AS I have said: It should be obvious to all God/Jesus loving and sane people on this site that it is inhumane wickedness to stone and burn people to death at the stake for all sorts of absurd reasons and to slaughter men, women, children, infants and even animals in the name of God. That's not the nature of God that Jesus came into the world and revealed and if you professed Christians can't accept what Jesus revealed you most certainly are NOT His true followers. Christians should be striving to believe as Jesus believed and thus to become more like Him - and this cannot be done without rejecting all scripture in the book the church compiled that is incompatible with His teachings. Not sure if this is the answer you are looking for. But I think much of Christianity has been sidetracked , by wanting to be the replacements for the "chosen " people found in the Old Testament. With their hard and fast rule that every thing in the "Bible" is inerrant, then they trap them selves into thinking they have to replace what once was. They do this in a lot of ways, like when they claim Jesus was simply the replacement of goats and sheep to be slaughtered for their sins. Paul states this in Hebrews even: Hebrews 10:4 ? New International Version It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. But in a way, it is like Captain Obvious telling us what we already know if we have commonsense. Like, how can slicing a lambs throat take away sin. But I do not blame the "book" for that. I kinda would word this differently, you said: "The teachings of the church bind the mind of man to the book the church compiled." I think its more like: The teachings of the church, perverted the way we treat Scripture,and bound the mind to its doctrines .And what is in the book gets perverted and stuff read into it. I`ll use Genesis chapter 3 as an example. It is used to validate the doctrine of the total depravity of man,or as its called now days, "Original sin". Talk to 9 out of 10 Christians, and they bring chapter 3 up, to validate that doctrine. But "sin" is not even mentioned in the chapter. in, does not even enter Scripture till Cain killed Abel. My point is, it is not the books fault that we mis use it, read our selves into it trying to replace something that never had meaning to God in the first place. No, I do not think God wants us to kill , no God does not want a kingdom like nationalism breeds, no God does not want us to torture in his name. But such a large chunk of Christianity think they replaced the Jews, and became the 'special me`s of God?Then they have are stuck, justifying actions in the O/T attributable to God in their Bible is inner ant philosophy. I do not even need the extremes like you mentioned, to stop and think, this is not Gods nature. Read about the Exodus, god delivered the Israelis from slavery. Then read Kings chapter 5 on how Solomon built the Temple. He used 130,000 slaves to build the thing. God delivered people from slavery,just so they could turn around and use slaves, to honor God? I find that incredulous. But I do not blame the book.If we read that stuff in the proper context, and not in the context that we replace the Jews, and that Jesus "replaced" animal sacrifice,then we can see what Jesus delivered us from. religion that promotes that stuff. Heck, its Religion that put him on the Cross, and we want to be the replacements for them? Just never made sense to me.
2/23/2017 1:27:18 PM	Open Door Policy
kb2222 Jacksonville, FL 77, joined Apr. 2011	@ isna_la_wica I don't blame the book (Bible) either, isna. The book didn't write itself. The blame lies with the church on combining the OT of the Jews with the NT of Jesus into a single book and proclaiming it ALL no matter what it says or what Jesus taught to be Gods Holy inerrant word. Not sure if this is the answer you are looking for. No, actually it wasn't. What I wanted to know was if you had any specific and substantive disagreement with what I said?
2/23/2017 2:04:31 PM	Open Door Policy
followjesusonly Kingman, AZ 74, joined May. 2012	isna_la_wica: I actually looked up Urantia and their views of redemption, in paper 89. Maybe there are other papers that deal with that? < Yes, I think so. Try this, Paper 188: section 4. MEANING OF THE DEATH ON THE CROSS isna_la_wica: Not really sure what they are saying. But I think, it says no redemption is necessary. < Redemption from what? From the clutches of the Devil? isna_la_wica: I my self do not really subscribe to the doctrine of inherited sin. We sin all by our selves. < Agreed. isna_la_wica: reading #2 in that paper, its hard to determine if sin even exists, they keep going on about the history of it and such. < I think that's all about how mankind got the views it has, the pre-historic history of it. Yes, sin exists. isna_la_wica: Am I interpreting it properly, that : A] Sin is only a perception? < No, I don't think it's only a perception. isna_la_wica: And : B] No redemption is required then?< Redemption from what? Paper 188: section 4. MEANING OF THE DEATH ON THE CROSS
2/23/2017 2:20:05 PM	Open Door Policy
followjesusonly Kingman, AZ 74, joined May. 2012	Quote from ludlowlowell: (via isna's post) Catholics make a distiction between redemption and salvation. The whole human race has been redeemed by Christ's Blood, but only faithful followers of Jesus Christ (Catholics in good standing) go to Heaven. Catholic insanity. "He cannot have God as a Father who does not have the Church as a mother." --St. Cyprian (200-258 a.d.) One-liner opinion from some dead Catholic named Cyprian who was not a saint when and if he ever said it. Having said this, it is true that the Catholic Church does have an open door policy---anyone may join who wishes to fo so. You are a sick Catholic man. Lud. All churches and religions have an open door policy. Anyone who wishes to join the Mormons or the Jehovah's Witnesses is free to do so.
2/23/2017 11:24:04 PM	Open Door Policy
isna_la_wica Brantford, ON 63, joined Mar. 2012	P2016:7, 188:4.2 Jesus desired to live a full mortal life in the flesh on Urantia. Death is, ordinarily, a part of life. Death is the last act in the mortal drama. In your well-meant efforts to escape the superstitious errors of the false interpretation of the meaning of the death on the cross, you should be careful not to make the great mistake of failing to perceive the true significance and the genuine import of the Master's death. In a way, I agree with some points here. Death is a part of life, and his death was important but the emphasis needs to be more attached to his Resurrection, is what I think. P2016:10, 188:4.5 The animal nature -- the tendency toward evil-doing -- may be hereditary, but sin is not transmitted from parent to child. Sin is the act of conscious and deliberate rebellion against the Father's will and the Sons' laws by an individual will creature. I agree with this. P2017:1, 188:4.6 Jesus lived and died for a whole universe, not just for the races of this one world. While the mortals of the realms had salvation even before Jesus lived and died on Urantia, it is nevertheless a fact that his bestowal on this world greatly illuminated the way of salvation; his death did much to make forever plain the certainty of mortal survival after death in the flesh. In a "round about way, I believe something similar. But I tend to view it more in a way of dimensions rather than other planets. That is the way of view death as well and after life. Many seem to think, pre Cross, people reached God through sacrificing animals, and after, from the sacrifice of Jesus. But that makes no sense. How can we meet pre cross people over the spilled blood of Sheep? And how, can one be compared to the other? It is not an equal value. Where we "meet" is at the Cross, and Jesus died and was then resurrected. It is in Resurrection where we meet. And with Resurrection time has not the same meaning to us now in this 4 dimensional , dimension. ( world) P2017:2, 188:4.7 Though it is hardly proper to speak of Jesus as a sacrificer, a ransomer, or a redeemer, it is wholly correct to refer to him as a savior. He forever made the way of salvation (survival) more clear and certain; he did better and more surely show the way of salvation for all the mortals of all the worlds of the universe of Nebadon. The sacrifice , I think, comes from him becoming human and subjecting him self to the same things as we are. Death/ executed, by the hands of us humans, insisted on by his own Religion. Redemption, is related to reconciliation I think, bringing us back to what God had designed us for in the first place. The one who knew no sin, took on the sin of the world unto his own shoulders. Notice I use singular there and not plural as in sins. I think there is significance in that, but am tired right now, so will leave it at that. And when he took the sin of the world onto him self, well that is for those who had died before, and after the Cross. Corinthians 5:19 New International Version that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. P2017:5, 188:4.10 Neither do genuine believers trouble themselves so much about the future punishment of sin. The real believer is only concerned about present separation from God. True, wise fathers may chasten their sons, but they do all this in love and for corrective purposes. They do not punish in anger, neither do they chastise in retribution. Agreed.
2/24/2017 3:25:50 PM	Open Door Policy
kb2222 Jacksonville, FL 77, joined Apr. 2011	@ isna_la_wica Quote from kb2222: The teachings of the church bind the mind of man to the book the church compiled. AS I have said: It should be obvious to all God/Jesus loving and sane people on this site that it is inhumane wickedness to stone and burn people to death at the stake for all sorts of absurd reasons and to slaughter men, women, children, infants and even animals in the name of God. That's not the nature of God that Jesus came into the world and revealed and if you professed Christians can't accept what Jesus revealed you most certainly are NOT His true followers. Christians should be striving to believe as Jesus believed and thus to become more like Him - and this cannot be done without rejecting all scripture in the book the church compiled that is incompatible with His teachings. Well, do you have any specific and substantive disagreement with what I said, isna_la_wica?

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