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3/2/2017 11:49:17 AM Did Jesus, or only Paul, say we needed grace?  

ludlowlowell
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (34,030)
Panama City, FL
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It is often said that Jesus never talked about grace and that the whole concept of grace was invented by Paul. But at Matthew 25:1-13 Jesus Himself says we need grace.

Matthew 25:1-13 is the parable of the ten virgins who went with lamps to meet a bride and groom. Five of the virgins were wise---they brought oil (grace) with them. Five were foolish---they didn't think oil (grace) was necessary. Perhaps they trusted in their own righteousness. Perhaps they were lukewarm and didn't give a flip. When the bridegroom came (the second coming of Christ, for those still alive then, or at our particular judgments, if we pass this life before then) those without oil (grace) were shut out. Oh, they scurried and scurried to find oil (grace) at the last minute, but it was too late (sometimes God does sometime give sinners a chance to repent and gain grace on their deathbeds, but sometimes people die sudden deaths, and sometimes dying sinners are in too much despair to repent).

This parable is clearly about grace and its necessity, and was taught by Jesus, not Paul (Paul did preach grace but Jesus taught it first). Don't ever let anyone tell you that grace is something Paul dreamed up. Matthew 25:1-13 says otherwise.

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3/3/2017 7:10:30 PM Did Jesus, or only Paul, say we needed grace?  

isna_la_wica
Over 4,000 Posts! (7,467)
Brantford, ON
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? John 1:17 ?

New International Version
For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.


John 1:14 NIV

14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

2 Peter 1:2 NIV

2 Grace and peace be yours in abundance through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.

James 4:6 NIV

6 But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says: “God opposes the proud but shows favor to the humble.”

No, it was not invented by Paul.

Not sure what to say about your analogy concerning Mathew 25, for some reason I have been lapse in looking at that in depth. Will have to do some reading on it before commenting.

Matthew 25:1-13 Amplified Bible (AMP)

Parable of Ten Virgins
25 “Then the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins, who took their lamps and went to [a]meet the bridegroom. 2 Five of them were foolish [thoughtless, silly, and careless], and five were wise [far-sighted, practical, and sensible]. 3 For when the foolish took their lamps, they did not take any [extra] oil with them, 4 but the wise took flasks of oil along with their lamps. 5 Now while the bridegroom was delayed, they all began to nod off, and they fell asleep. 6 But at midnight there was a shout, ‘Look! The bridegroom [is coming]! Go out to meet him.’ 7 Then all those virgins got up and put their own lamps in order [trimmed the wicks and added oil and lit them]. 8 But the foolish virgins said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, because our lamps are going out.’ 9 But the wise replied, ‘No, otherwise there will not be enough for us and for you, too; go instead to the dealers and buy oil for yourselves.’ 10 But while they were going away to buy oil, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast; and the door was shut and locked. 11 Later the others also came, and said, ‘Lord, Lord, open [the door] for us.’ 12 But He replied, ‘I assure you and most solemnly say to you, I do not know you [we have no relationship].’ 13 Therefore, be on the alert [be prepared and ready], for you do not know the day nor the hour [when the Son of Man will come].


I should have looked into this better before now.

3/3/2017 7:37:01 PM Did Jesus, or only Paul, say we needed grace?  

isna_la_wica
Over 4,000 Posts! (7,467)
Brantford, ON
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Virgins - Denoting the purity of the Christian doctrine and character. In this parable, the bridegroom is generally understood to mean Jesus Christ. The feast, that state of felicity to which he has promised to raise his genuine followers. The wise, or prudent, and foolish virgins, those who truly enjoy, and those who only profess the purity and holiness of his religion. The oil, the grace and salvation of God, or that faith which works by love. The vessel, the heart in which this oil is contained. The lamp, the profession of enjoying the burning and shining light of the Gospel of Christ. Going forth; the whole of their sojourning upon earth.

Matthew 25:2

mat 25:2

Five of them were wise - Or, provident, f????µ?? - they took care to make a proper provision beforehand, and left nothing to be done in the last moment.

Five were foolish - ?????, which might be translated careless, is generally rendered foolish; but this does not agree so well with f????µ??, provident, or prudent, in the first clause, which is the proper meaning of the word. ????? in the Etymologicon, is thus defined, µ? ???a? t? de??, he who sees not what is proper or necessary. These did not see that it was necessary to have oil in their vessels, (the salvation of God in their souls), as well as a burning lamp of religious profession, Mat 25:3, Mat 25:4.

Matthew 25:4

mat 25:4

Took oil in their vessels - They not only had a sufficiency of oil in their lamps, but they carried a vessel with oil to recruit their lamps, when it should be found expedient. This the foolish or improvident neglected to do: hence, when the oil that was in their lamps burned out, they had none to pour into the lamp to maintain the flame.

Matthew 25:5

.

Matthew 25:6

mat 25:6

At midnight there was a cry - The Jewish weddings were generally celebrated in the night; yet they usually began at the rising of the evening star; but in this case there was a more than ordinary delay.



Matthew 25:7

mat 25:7

Trimmed their lamps - ???sµ?sa?, adorned them. I have seen some of the eastern lamps or lanthorns, the body of which was a skeleton of wood and threads, covered with a very thin transparent membrane, or very fine gauze, and decorated with flowers painted on it. It is probable that the nuptial lamps were highly decorated in this way; though the act mentioned here may mean no more than preparing the lamps for burning.



mat 25:8

Our lamps are gone out - Sße????ta?, are going out. So then it is evident that they were once lighted. They had once hearts illuminated and warmed by faith and love; but they had backslidden from the salvation of God, and now they are excluded from heaven, because, through their carelessness, they have let the light that was in them become darkness, and have not applied in time for a fresh supply of the salvation of God.

A Jewish rabbin supposes God addressing man thus: - I give thee my lamp, give thou me thy lamp; if thou keep my lamp I will keep thy lamp; but if thou extinguish my lamp I will extinguish thy lamp. That is, I give thee my Word and testimonies to be a light unto thy feet and a lanthorn to thy steps, to guide thee safely through life; give me thy Soul and all its concerns, that I may defend and save thee from all evil: keep my Word, walk in my ways, and I will keep thy Soul that nothing shall injure it; but if thou trample under foot my laws, I will cast thy soul into outer darkness.

Matthew 25:9

mat 25:9

Lest there be not enough for us and you - These had all been companions in the Christian course, and there was a time when they might have been helpful to each other; but that time is now past for ever - none has a particle of grace to spare, not even to help the soul of the dearest relative! The grace which every man receives is just enough to save his own soul; he has no merits to bequeath to the Church; no work of supererogation which can be placed to the account of another.

Go ye rather to them that sell, and buy - By leaving out the particle de, but, (on the indisputable authority of ABDGHKS, and HV, of Matthai, with sixteen others, the Armenian, Vulgate, and all the Itala but one), and transposing a very little the members of the sentence, the sense is more advantageously represented, and the reading smoother: Rather go to them that sell, and buy for yourselves, lest there be not enough for us and you. Beza, Mill, Bengel, and Griesbach, approve of the omission of the particle de.

Matthew 25:10

mat 25:10

While they went to buy, the bridegroom came - What a dismal thing it is, not to discover the emptiness of one's heart of all that is good, till it is too late to make any successful application for relief! God alone knows how many are thus deceived.

And they that were ready - They who were prepared - who had not only a burning lamp of an evangelical profession, but had oil in their vessels, the faith that works by love in their hearts, and their lives adorned with all the fruits of the Spirit.

The door was shut - Sinners on a death-bed too often meet with those deceitful merchants, who promise them salvation for a price which is of no value in the sight of God. Come unto me, says Jesus, and buy: there is no salvation but through his blood - no hope for the sinner but that which is founded upon his sacrifice and death. The door was shut - dreadful and fatal words! No hope remains. Nothing but death can shut this door; but death may surprise us in our sins, and then despair is our only portion.

Matthew 25:11

mat 25:11

Afterwards came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord - Earnest prayer, when used in time, may do much good: but it appears, from this parable, that there may come a time when prayer even to Jesus may be too late! - viz. when the door is shut - when death has separated the body and the soul.

Matthew 25:12

mat 25:12

I know you not - As if he had said, Ye are not of my company - ye were neither with the bride nor the bridegroom: ye slept while the others were in procession. I do not acknowledge you for my disciples - ye are not like him who is love - ye refused to receive his grace - ye sinned it away when ye had it; now you are necessarily excluded from that kingdom where nothing but love and purity can dwell.

Matthew 25:13

mat 25:13

Watch therefore - If to watch be to employ ourselves chiefly about the business of our salvation, alas! how few of those who are called Christians are there who do watch! How many who slumber! How many who are asleep! How many seized with a lethargy! How many quite dead!
Commentary on the Bible by Adam Clarke: Matthew ... - Sacred Texts
www.sacred-texts.com/bib/cmt/clarke/mat025.htm


Actually, after reading a few commentaries, I think you correct in saying the oil can represent Grace. Some like Jerome refer to it is as "knowledge", some as the 'Holy Spirit" , and Adam CLarke here as "Salvation" which is, Grace accepted when you think about it.

So, I would say, you are correct . Going to do some more reading.

3/3/2017 9:18:42 PM Did Jesus, or only Paul, say we needed grace?  

ludlowlowell
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (34,030)
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Isna, would you agree that this shows that grace is not just something Paul invented, but that it was taught by Jesus Himself?



[Edited 3/3/2017 9:19:20 PM ]

3/3/2017 9:32:07 PM Did Jesus, or only Paul, say we needed grace?  

isna_la_wica
Over 4,000 Posts! (7,467)
Brantford, ON
63, joined Mar. 2012


Quote from ludlowlowell:
Isna, would you agree that this shows that grace is not just something Paul invented, but that it was taught by Jesus Himself?


Jesus may not have used the word "Grace", but he revealed it.

He revealed it when he told the paralyzed man, his sins were forgiven.

Matthew 9:2 Amplified Bible (AMP)

2 They brought to Him a man who was paralyzed, lying on a stretcher. Seeing their [active] faith [springing from confidence in Him], Jesus said to the paralytic, “Do not be afraid, son; your sins are forgiven [the penalty is paid, the guilt removed, and you are declared to be in right standing with God].”

And when he said:

Luke 23:34 Amplified Bible (AMP)

34 [a]And Jesus was saying, “Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing.” And they cast lots, dividing His clothes among themselves.

So, yes, I would say Jesus taught it, in words and deeds.

3/3/2017 10:02:25 PM Did Jesus, or only Paul, say we needed grace?  

ludlowlowell
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (34,030)
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64, joined Feb. 2008


Okay. Anybody else?

Actually, this was more or less aimed at Tnteacher, who insists that the whole concept of grace was invented by Paul, whom he considers to be a tare. I wanted to show him differently.

Isna, do you find any discrepancies between Jesus' teachings and Paul's teachings?

3/4/2017 12:41:52 AM Did Jesus, or only Paul, say we needed grace?  

isna_la_wica
Over 4,000 Posts! (7,467)
Brantford, ON
63, joined Mar. 2012


Quote from ludlowlowell:
Okay. Anybody else?

Actually, this was more or less aimed at Tnteacher, who insists that the whole concept of grace was invented by Paul, whom he considers to be a tare. I wanted to show him differently.

Isna, do you find any discrepancies between Jesus' teachings and Paul's teachings?


No, none, nada.

Its why I have inteacher blocked.

We have many witnesses of "acts", that Jesus did, from many people.

But Paul is a witness for Jesus in a very personal way, not just his miracles.It is through Paul, that we see how Saul was changed and became born again as Paul. We see Jesus "revealed " in Paul.

And for me? What a blessing Pauls testimony is . A man completely changed, who struggled and fought his own battle as he admitted even though he never says what it is,, and then grew and matured in Christ.

Jesus revealed Grace in Saul/ Paul, and he is the best witness to it all.

To deny Paul, and his message of Grace, received through Christ? Would deny then what Grace has for us. And it would be a waste of time even being here and talking about Christ, for it is by what Paul teaches, that we come to Christ our selves.

3/4/2017 12:50:38 AM Did Jesus, or only Paul, say we needed grace?  

ludlowlowell
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Yep, that's the way I see it.

3/4/2017 8:17:31 AM Did Jesus, or only Paul, say we needed grace?  
cupocheer
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GRACE is "the grace of God"

"The grace of God" is salvation.

"Salvation" is a 'gift from God'.

There is no cost to receive a "gift".

Grace, from God, is forgiving god wrongs committed without paying a price for the forgiveness.

"Ask -- and ye shall receive."

3/4/2017 4:06:19 PM Did Jesus, or only Paul, say we needed grace?  

ludlowlowell
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (34,030)
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Yep, I agree with Cupocheer's post, too.

3/16/2017 10:10:57 PM Did Jesus, or only Paul, say we needed grace?  
cupocheer
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (252,267)
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Get Ready

5/30/2017 8:54:34 AM Did Jesus, or only Paul, say we needed grace?  
cupocheer
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Assumption, IL
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