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3/24/2017 4:15:28 PM I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and  
freegratis
Irving, TX
50, joined Dec. 2011


Jehovah Witnesses and the scholars they use love these verses from Revelation 1:17-18.

Maybe we need some more scholars to decipher who can call Himself:
The Alpha and The Omega
The First and The Last
The Beginning and The Ending

I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen.

Only ONE can be First.

Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one!

As a side note: It is a beautiful harmonic to me -- the harmony of the gospel -- good news; that this is in The First and The Last chapters of Revelation.

I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.

For those who like odd renderings:
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Origin and the Consummation.
Revelation 22:13

Who is clearly God the Father; and who is clearly God the Son?

If I were Greek, I might only use the phrase The Alpha and The Omega.

As Doctor Beverly Crusher in Home Soil said to the Computer: Disregard incongruity and theorize as to source.

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3/24/2017 5:14:42 PM I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and  

ludlowlowell
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (34,030)
Panama City, FL
64, joined Feb. 2008


I'm quite sure everyone currently participating in the Groups/Christians forum believes that Jesus is the Alpha and Omega. I certainly do. But I'm not sure what your point is.

3/27/2017 4:40:01 PM I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and  
freegratis
Irving, TX
50, joined Dec. 2011


Quote from ludlowlowell:
I'm quite sure everyone currently participating in the Groups/Christians forum believes that Jesus is the Alpha and Omega. I certainly do. But I'm not sure what your point is.


I guess everyone you don't have blocked believes.

Yes, that is the point: Jesus claims to be the Alpha and the Omega.

Your otherwise bestest buddy is going around quoting JW sites and conveniently omits "in spirit and in truth" in John 4:24, and probably also forgets that Romans 8:26 is quite personable and not merely a force.

God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

To Lud's bestest buddy,
Believe the force Luke, He is not inanimate.

Disregard incongruity and theorize as to source.
Disregard no mention of the phrase and theorize as to source. -- Merry Christmas is not in the bible either, but the concept is there.

3/28/2017 3:26:27 AM I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and  

ludlowlowell
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (34,030)
Panama City, FL
64, joined Feb. 2008


The Holy Spirit is definitely a Person, and the Third Person of the Holy Trinity. Ifvtge Jehovah's Witnesses think He is just a force they are very, very wrong.

3/28/2017 9:10:30 AM I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and  
cupocheer
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (252,263)
Assumption, IL
68, joined May. 2010


Does it really matter what the Jehovah Witness believes?

Isn't it more important what we, as true Christians, believe what Jesus Christ teaches?

3/28/2017 11:08:54 AM I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and  

iam_resurrected
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (20,363)
Reno, NV
46, joined Jul. 2014


Quote from ludlowlowell:
The Holy Spirit is definitely a Person, and the Third Person of the Holy Trinity. Ifvtge Jehovah's Witnesses think He is just a force they are very, very wrong.







How is the Holy Ghost a separate entity of GOD?

if there were 3 separate beings then the first commandment is a lie (have no other gods before ME (singular).

Elohim :
In the Hebrew Bible Elohim, when meaning the God of Israel, is mostly grammatically singular. Even in Genesis 1:26 "Then God said (singular verb), 'Let us make (plural verb) man in our image, after our likeness'", Elohim is singular

so, "let us (is not trinity) but a reference that the angels are made in the image of God as are humans.

let me ask you something.
Does God have an image?

according to Genesis 1:26 our image and the angels images are to the LIKENESS of God's image.
So, God appears to be similar to us as we are to Him being created in His IMAGE.

even the flesh body of Jesus had both invisible God and Holy Spirit.
how could Paul conclude in Colossians that when "invisible God" looks at Himself he SEES Himself as Christ the Anointed...unless...Jesus had not the Spirit and holy Spirit of God?

in Ezekiel and Revelations they both describe ONE GOD on ONE THRONE.
Ezekiel calls him the "Ancient One", and in Revelations Christ calls Himself : 8
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.


Bible is specific that there is only ONE GOD, ONE FAITH, ONE WAY.

3/28/2017 11:45:23 AM I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and  

ludlowlowell
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (34,030)
Panama City, FL
64, joined Feb. 2008


There is only one God but there are three Persons in the godhead. See Colossians 2:9.

3/28/2017 1:37:53 PM I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and  

iam_resurrected
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (20,363)
Reno, NV
46, joined Jul. 2014


for God to be ALL KNOWING, ALL POWERFUL, AND ALL SEEING means these are manifestations of the ONE GOD.
God while in heaven and everywhere is with us also by His Holy Sprit.
this is EXTENSION and THOUGHT is the "higher reasoning".
but all come from ONE BODY called God.

3/28/2017 2:29:53 PM I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and  
cupocheer
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (252,263)
Assumption, IL
68, joined May. 2010


Quote from ludlowlowell:
The Holy Spirit is definitely a Person, and the Third Person of the Holy Trinity. Ifvtge Jehovah's Witnesses think He is just a force they are very, very wrong.


LUD,

God the Father
The Son
And The Holy Spirit

are NOT "PEOPLE".

"PEOPLE" are humans.

The Trinity can't be human because the Trinity is Holy, sinless.

The Trinity is "better" than humanity.

Hence the reason God, working in His Godly was, made it possible for the Messiah (Gods Chosen One), Jesus Christ to come to earth as a human. So Jesus would be equal to humankind.

My God -- think about what you are believing, please.

We wouldn't have a chance in hell of being redeemed for eternity of the Trinity was no better than humankind.

All would have been for naught.

My heart bleeds tears of sorrow that anyone calling themselves a Christian, or any other devout believer, would believe that the Trinity is no better than humanity.

Bless them Lord if they believe this heresy. They known not what they believe they believe. Amen.

3/28/2017 4:50:25 PM I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and  

ludlowlowell
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (34,030)
Panama City, FL
64, joined Feb. 2008


The Son is people but the Father and the Holy Spirit are not.

What I said was that there are Three Persons, Three Divine Persons, not three human persons, in the Godhead. At least that's what I meant.

3/28/2017 6:15:34 PM I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and  
cupocheer
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (252,263)
Assumption, IL
68, joined May. 2010


Lud, God is the GODHEAD. (And if you read the bible very carefully... well.... I won't go there just yet.)

Jesus said "Where you see me you see the Father, also."

God is Jesus & the Holy Spirit. Not a "three person" concept but a single entity concept with unimaginable powers.

God said "I am the I Am". That is a one entity concept.

The Trinity is the totality of the one entity GODHEAD.

3/28/2017 6:46:30 PM I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and  

ludlowlowell
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (34,030)
Panama City, FL
64, joined Feb. 2008


You're basically right, Cup, but there are Three Distinct Persons there. Not three Gods, Three Persons in One God, or the Godhead if you prefer that term.

3/28/2017 7:43:57 PM I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and  
cupocheer
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (252,263)
Assumption, IL
68, joined May. 2010


I'm not saying "multiple Gods", LUD.

There is ONLY ONE God for all earth -- and the universe He created.

Your term of use "person" equates to saying 3 individual "persons" ---

God IS NOT a person (He, actually, is NOT a HE per se -- He is an all inclusive THEY (HE & SHE) or Adam & Eve would not have been noted as being created/made in His image.

God is ONE --- that one has three distinct functions: Father, Son, Holy Spirit. All inclusive. One Supreme Spiritual Entity. NOT a "person". A GOD.

Try this analogy:

I am a WOMAN
I am a MOTHER
I am a GRAND-MOTHER

I am ONE person with multiple distinct areas of expertise.

I am NOT a God. I am human.

God is not human; He is the I Am (everything). [A spiritual essence, force, power humans do not have access to, therefore, may not have the capability of understanding in earthly terms.]

3/28/2017 8:28:15 PM I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and  

ludlowlowell
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (34,030)
Panama City, FL
64, joined Feb. 2008


One God. Three Persons. You're right, God is not a Person, He is Three Persons. But He is only One God.

Some people have used the triangle as an analogy---one triangle, three sides. Others, supposedly St. Patrick among them, used the three-leaf clover (shamrock) as an analogy---one leaf, three protrusions.



[Edited 3/28/2017 8:28:45 PM ]

3/28/2017 8:30:12 PM I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and  
cupocheer
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (252,263)
Assumption, IL
68, joined May. 2010


You mean -- one stem -- 3 leaves -- don't you?

3/29/2017 1:06:09 AM I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and  

ludlowlowell
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (34,030)
Panama City, FL
64, joined Feb. 2008


I guess I do.

3/29/2017 8:33:20 AM I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and  
cupocheer
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (252,263)
Assumption, IL
68, joined May. 2010


ummm....

3/29/2017 10:26:11 AM I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and  
freegratis
Irving, TX
50, joined Dec. 2011


Quote from iam_resurrected:
How is the Holy Ghost a separate entity of GOD?

if there were 3 separate beings then the first commandment is a lie (have no other gods before ME (singular).

Elohim :
In the Hebrew Bible Elohim, when meaning the God of Israel, is mostly grammatically singular. Even in Genesis 1:26 "Then God said (singular verb), 'Let us make (plural verb) man in our image, after our likeness'", Elohim is singular

so, "let us (is not trinity) but a reference that the angels are made in the image of God as are humans.

let me ask you something.
Does God have an image?

according to Genesis 1:26 our image and the angels images are to the LIKENESS of God's image.
So, God appears to be similar to us as we are to Him being created in His IMAGE.

even the flesh body of Jesus had both invisible God and Holy Spirit.
how could Paul conclude in Colossians that when "invisible God" looks at Himself he SEES Himself as Christ the Anointed...unless...Jesus had not the Spirit and holy Spirit of God?

in Ezekiel and Revelations they both describe ONE GOD on ONE THRONE.
Ezekiel calls him the "Ancient One", and in Revelations Christ calls Himself : 8
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.


Bible is specific that there is only ONE GOD, ONE FAITH, ONE WAY.


That is the point for our finite minds to try to grasp.

There is ONE GOD.
Yet there are these attributes that we recognize as three distinct beings in a Godhead.

You just said yourself, "in Revelations Christ calls Himself : 8
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
"

Everyone knows that the ONE GOD is the the Alpha and Omega, the Almighty.

3/29/2017 12:34:06 PM I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and  

ludlowlowell
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (34,030)
Panama City, FL
64, joined Feb. 2008


Good point, Freegratis. How could Jesus be the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end, if He were not God?

3/29/2017 2:40:16 PM I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and  
cupocheer
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (252,263)
Assumption, IL
68, joined May. 2010


Had Jesus been the Alpha & Omega then he wouldn't have been crucified. But God, in his unlimited power, could be crucified as a human in the form of Jesus Christ.

3/29/2017 2:44:10 PM I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and  

ludlowlowell
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (34,030)
Panama City, FL
64, joined Feb. 2008


Why is it that the man who is the alpha and the omega can't be crucified?

3/29/2017 2:54:16 PM I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and  
cupocheer
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (252,263)
Assumption, IL
68, joined May. 2010


Well -- If the Alpha is the beginning and the Omega is the ending then if the Alpha was crucified the Omega ended at crucifixion death. Therefore, since Jesus' physical body died and was replaced by his spiritual body, again, the Omega couldn't be killed.

And when God said he was the first and the last he was admitting he was the ONLY.

JESUS is not dead. Jesus lives and when we believe in him so shall we live eternally. Amen.

3/29/2017 5:11:16 PM I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and  
freegratis
Irving, TX
50, joined Dec. 2011


Quote from cupocheer:
Had Jesus been the Alpha & Omega then he wouldn't have been crucified. But God, in his unlimited power, could be crucified as a human in the form of Jesus Christ.


cupocheer,
Who is speaking in Revelation 22:12-13?
12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”

3/29/2017 5:22:07 PM I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and  

ludlowlowell
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (34,030)
Panama City, FL
64, joined Feb. 2008


Cup does have a point. The Catholic Church explains it this way: Jesus has two natures, divine and human. Since God can't suffer and God can't die, Jesus suffered and died in His human nature only. And Jesus is alpha and omega, beginning and end, in His divine nature only.

3/29/2017 6:15:46 PM I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and  
cupocheer
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (252,263)
Assumption, IL
68, joined May. 2010


@freegratis...

Revelation 22:7
I AM coning soon...

Revelation 22:12
I AM coming soon...
I AM the Alpha and Omega...
...the First and the Last...
...the Beginning and the End

Revelation 22:16
I, Jesus....
I AM the Root and the Offspring of David....
...the bright Morning Star.

Revelation 22:20
I AM coming soon.


Exodus 3:14
I AM WHO I AM (God to Moses)

3/30/2017 8:13:46 PM I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and  

ludlowlowell
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (34,030)
Panama City, FL
64, joined Feb. 2008


"I am who am", God said to Moses. What does this mean? It means that God is the only Being in the universe Who exists self-sufficiently. The rest of the universe depends on God for its existence, including of course the human race. After God said this to Moses the Jews did their best not to use the phrase "I am".

But then came Jesus, Who said "I am" all the time! "I am the gate", "I am the door", "I am the good shepherd", "I am the vine", "I am the way, the truth, and the life". Then the clincher: John 8:58: "Before Abraham was ever made, I am."

When the Jewish leaders heard Jesus say this last, they knew what He meant. That's why they took up stones to stone Him (verse 59, the very next verse). They knew He was claiing to be God and they considered it to be blasphemy. Had Jesus not actually been God they would have been quite right.

5/30/2017 8:42:30 AM I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and  
cupocheer
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (252,263)
Assumption, IL
68, joined May. 2010