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4/10/2017 8:35:49 AM Setting The record Straight: Deeds Not Words  

isna_la_wica
Over 7,500 Posts!! (7,832)
Brantford, ON
63, joined Mar. 2012


There are 7 types of lies.

1.Error—a lie by mistake. The person believes they are being truthful, but what they are saying is not true.
2.Omission – leaving out relevant information. Easier and least risky. It doesn’t involve inventing any stories. It is passive deception and less guilt is involved.
3.Restructuring—distorting the context. Saying something in sarcasm, changing the characters, or the altering the scene.
4.Denial—refusing to acknowledge a truth. The extent of denial can be quite large—they may be lying only to you just this one time or they may be lying to themselves.
5.Minimization—reducing the effects of a mistake, a fault, or a judgment call.
6Exaggeration—representing as greater, better, more experienced, more successful.
7.Fabrication—deliberately inventing a false story.
Know When Someone is Lying: 7 Types of Lies | The Fast Track
www.quickbase.com/blog/know-when-someone-is-lying-7-types-of-lies


A lot of these are used to promote false doctrines. We see it all the time, a person will use a verse with out it being in context, to push their agenda.

Yes, I said this:


ISNA
So, yea, yea, yea, Islam is more violent than Christianity. I am the first to admit that! But, so what? What difference does it mean?


And one poster is starting threads only based on that. But he omits the following and takes that completely out of context, here is the rest, but6 in context :

So, yea, yea, yea, Islam is more violent than Christianity. I am the first to admit that! But, so what? What difference does it mean?

Let me explain. Mohammed taught division, "us" against "them", "male" against "female", true "believer " against "infidel". Christ on the other hand, taught unity. He taught, there is no 'male or female, no Jew or Gentile , no free man or slave.

So, does that mean that Christianity is inherently "better' than Islam? Not at all, for we get back to 'perception " again. Unfortunately we have Christians who perceive their Religion in the light of previous ones. "The Replacements" for the ones that were "special" and better than "them" and invoke God for their wars and even in Nationalistic fervor extend it even to their kingdoms on earth. {Its why it is waste of time, trying to get them to de-materialize their favourite prophecy stuff.

These are the Fundamentalists in Christianity. Yes, I admit that what Christ taught, is way different than what Mohammed taught in many ways, {although some sharing is found with in all Religions}. But any difference? Is negated because of their perception. They perceive their Christianity, is an Islamic fashion. And mean while, some Muslims rightly or wrongly, actually, perceive their Religion in a way closer to what Christ taught!

And so we have the strange phenomenon of chickens, walking and quacking like a Duck.

Deeds, not words, is what we were taught by Christ.


Obviously he is just trying to damage a reputation, so has to resort to lies .

I actually volunteer for Kurdish groups fighting ISIS, albeit, from the safety of my home here. I do press stuff for them.

"Words not Deeds"? Seems to be hard for big nose to understand.



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4/10/2017 8:53:03 AM Setting The record Straight: Deeds Not Words  

isna_la_wica
Over 7,500 Posts!! (7,832)
Brantford, ON
63, joined Mar. 2012


Is the CLNT an Accurate Translation?

We must take a closer look at the concordant method. At first sight it sounds good and right that all Greek (or Hebrew) words should be translated consistently into English, but in fact this concept is deeply flawed. The idea that any given Greek word should always where possible be translated by the same English word sounds good, but it runs totally contrary to the way languages actually work.

Individual words in any language represent areas of meaning rather than pin-points. The area of meaning covered by a word in any given language hardly ever corresponds exactly to the area covered by a similar word in another language. You only have to look in any foreign language dictionary to get this point. Any French dictionary will give several French words for one English word and conversely several English words for one French word. The most accurate translation of any given word will vary according to its context. The same thing of course is true with English and Greek (or Hebrew).

Knoch of course knew this and frequently had to use two or more different English words for a single Greek word.

Logos in Greek is most commonly equivalent to the English word word. But its meaning is much wider. The lexicon gives reason, discourse, doctrine, instruction and several other words, any of which might be the best translation of logos in a given context. To insist it must be translated by the same English word every time it occurs results in inaccurate and bad translation. In fact Knoch uses four different English words - word, expression, account and matter - to translate logos, demonstrating the impossibility of using one English word for each Greek word, but still not accurately conveying the full range of the meaning of logos in English.

The same is true of tenses of verbs. The Greek present tense sometimes correspond to the simple English present, I walk, and sometimes to the continuous, I am walking. To translate it always by the continuous, I am walking, even though it may remove translator’s bias, is inaccurate translation.

All this has two consequences. One is that Knoch frequently has to break his basic rule. The other is he frequently uses English words which are less accurate translations of Greek words than those he would have used if he were not trying to stick to his rules. The result is that the CLNT has minor inaccuracies in almost every sentence.

The CLNT looks surprisingly like the work of a foreign speaker of English. A foreigner often thinks in his own language and translates word for word and tense for tense into English. (English speakers speaking foreign languages usually do much worse!) This is almost exactly what Knoch has done! He is effectively thinking in Greek and translating word for word into English. Foreigners who speak English in this way are not good speakers of English. Most of the time we can understand what they are saying, but they are not accurate and they are often unclear. If you doubt what I am saying, just read one sentence of the CLNT and see! We are not talking about serious errors such as may be found in some other translations. Rather it is minor errors of accuracy and clarity that occur in almost every sentence. The Bible's best known verse comes across as: “For thus God loves the world, so that He gives His only-begotten Son, that everyone who is believing in Him should not be perishing, but may be having life eonian”.

Is the CLNT free from Bias?

Knoch’s other aim was to make a translation that was free from any bias, including of course his own. Excellent though his intentions were, there are at least three areas where the CLNT reflects Knoch’s personal opinions and is therefore not free from bias.

Area 1: Choice of the best English word to translate a given Greek word.

Knoch himself decides what is the best English word for a given Greek word. This sounds like a very obvious statement, but it is easy simply to miss the implications. 90% of the time another translator might agree with him, but certainly not 100%.

An obvious example is the Greek word aion. Knoch has decided that eon is the best English word to translate it. Other translators would not agree. They might chose age or ever as the best translation of aion. Or they might say it needed several different English equivalents according to its context.

I am not saying that Knoch was right or wrong to choose the word eon. What I am saying is that the choice of the English word eon was Knoch’s personal opinion, rather than being the one correct translation.

Area 2: Choice of whether one English word is sufficient to translate a given Greek word.

Knoch accepts that some Greek words need more than one English word to translate them according to their context. John 3: 8 is a clear example. The Greek word p?e?µa (pneuma) occurs twice in this verse. The CLNT translates it: “The blast (p?e?µa) is blowing where it wills, and the sound of it you are hearing, but you are not aware whence it is coming and where it is going. Thus is everyone who is begotten by the water and the spirit (p?e?µa).” (I’ve inserted the word p?e?µa.)

However in the case of aion Knoch decided that aion could always be translated by the one English word eon, but that p?e?µa needed 2 words. Other translators, as I have said, believe that aion must be translated by ever or age or world according to its context. Again we have Knoch’s personal opinion, rather than the one correct translation.

The whole subject of the translation of a??? and a?????? is such a major feature of the CLNT and so critical that I have added a specific section “???? and a??????” at the end of this writing.

Area 3: When Knoch decides that more than one English word is needed for a given Greek word, he decides which English word to use in each case.

For example Knoch agrees with everyone else that the Greek preposition e? (en) must sometimes be translated as in, and sometimes as with. He translates Matthew 9: 10 as “in (e?) the house” and Luke 22: 49 as “smiting with (e?) a sword”. Obviously he is correct to do so. The problem comes with Mark 1: 8. The CLNT has “I indeed baptise you in (e?) water”. The KJV has: “I indeed have baptized you with (e?) water.” Both of these are valid translations. Of other translators, some agree with Knoch and have “in water”, and some agree with the KJV and have “with water”. Obviously some people believe in baptism by immersion and would prefer in, while others believe in baptism by sprinkling or pouring and would prefer with. The Greek here is ambiguous and both translations are equally valid.

Once again, rather than having the one correct unbiased translation, we have Knoch’s opinion in favour of in water. Some other Bible translations actually put both in and with, and allow the reader to make up his own mind. That is clearly a true unbiased approach .
The Concordant Literal New Testament - Bible Studies for Growth in God
www.growthingod.org.uk/concordant-new-testament.htm


Alternative truth translation ?



[Edited 4/10/2017 8:53:21 AM ]

4/10/2017 11:29:47 AM Setting The record Straight: Deeds Not Words  
mindya
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (23,722)
Vancouver, BC
65, joined Jan. 2009


Nothing new with the biglet taking posts out of context...


......................




4/10/2017 2:59:48 PM Setting The record Straight: Deeds Not Words  

followjesusonly
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (13,613)
Kingman, AZ
75, joined May. 2012


And don't forget this monstrosity of Genesis:

CLV(i) 1 1Created by the Elohim were the heavens and the earth. 2 Yet the earth became a chaos and vacant, and darkness was on the surface of the submerged chaos. Yet the spirit of the Elohim is vibrating over the surface of the water. 3 And saying is the Elohim, "Become light!" And it is becoming light. 4 And seeing is the Elohim the light, that it is good.

Who can read that? Compared to:

Gen 1:1  In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2  And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Gen 1:3  And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Gen 1:4  And God saw the light, that it was good:

Quote from isna_la_wica:
The Concordant Literal New Testament - Bible Studies for Growth in God
www.growthingod.org.uk/concordant-new-testament.htm


Alternative truth translation ?


4/10/2017 3:33:11 PM Setting The record Straight: Deeds Not Words  

brashdoc
Over 2,000 Posts (3,486)
Chehalis, WA
65, joined Aug. 2008


I enjoyed your post, Rich, very much. The first part about lying was really good. The second part from Robert Beecham was excellent and I was going to post some of that that myself, after having read it several days ago. Here is his testimony:

I was born in 1942 and soon after baptized (by force without my consent!) into the Church of England. I was educated at Winchester College where I specialized in Latin, Greek and Math and then at Cambridge Univ. where I studied engineering. (Later I taught myself Hebrew.) I experienced a new birth when I was 18 & a few years later an infilling of the Holy Spirit. I have no official theological qualifications & do not now belong to any sect or denomination! In 1968 I went to Nepal as a missionary & met & married Daphne. We returned to England with 2 children in 1973. Here is some further things he said:

A. E. Knoch, I believe, was an honest & sincere lover of Scripture & a seeker after truth. He was also a gifted linguist and scholar. He saw some of the limitations of his approach to translation, but not sufficiently clearly. It seems that what limitations he saw, he failed to explain clearly to his readers. The CLNT is not the one & only unbiased, reliable version of the Scriptures in English that some of its advocates think it to be.
Much of its English is so unnatural & obscure that it can only be understood by people who are already familiar with the Bible in more normal English.

Here is an excellent post another excellent post by him.

'Aheeown', 'Aheeownios' and Olam

The CLNT has been called the Universalists’ Bible. This is because the traditional translations of 'eis aheeowna' (for ever) & 'aheeownios (eternal) which imply unending punishment for unbelievers, are replaced by, for the eon & eonian, which allows for Universal Reconciliation.

Can aheeown be translated eon & aheeownios be translated eonian in all contexts? In the following verses it is blatantly obvious that they can’t:

Jn 13:8 “Under no circumstances shouldst Thou be washing my feet for the eon!” The correct meaning is totally obvious: “You will never wash my feet”. For the eon is nonsense!

Mark 11:14 (barren fig tree) “By no means may anyone still be eating fruit of you for the eon”. Perhaps that fig tree will start bearing fruit again when the eon finishes! Obviously the correct translation is something like: “May no one ever eat fruit from you again!”

Heb 11:3 All other translators agree that in this context 'aheeonace' should be translated worlds or universe. The HSBC says, “By faith we understand that the universe was created by God’s command”. Knoch puts, “By faith we are apprehending the eons to adjust to a declaration of God”. Creation is reduced from the creation of the universe, which totally fits the context (a walk through the book of Genesis), to creation of eons, which is totally irrelevant to the context.

John 17:3 “This is 'aheeownios' life: that they may know You, the only true God & the One You have sent — Jesus Christ.” The meaning, as I understand it, is a spiritual life that we receive when we put our faith in Jesus & has an eternal & unending quality. Knoch translates this eonian life, by which he understands life throughout some future eon. This is a huge reduction of the real meaning.

Jn 6:51: “If anyone should be eating of this Bread, he shall be living for the eon.” Jesus was offering immediate spiritual life, not physical life at some unknown future time.

Rom 16:26 speaks of the “aheeownios God”. Knoch translates this eonian God. The word eonian is utterly irrelevant to the context, almost meaningless & reduces God from being eternal & beyond time to merely a designer of time periods.

In the OT Knoch translates the Hebrew word olam as eon or eonian without a shred of evidence for so doing, apart from the fact that it is used in similar ways to heeown' and 'aheeownios' in the LXX & NT. He translates Psalm 41:13 as “Blessed be Yahweh Elohim of Israel from the eon & unto the eon”. Again this is close to nonsense & a definite reduction from “Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting & to everlasting.” This is not perfect sense in English, but is much closer to the meaning of the Hebrew.

Knoch’s “consistent” translation of 'aheeown' & 'aheeownios' & olam has two effects. The first is to produce much that is close to nonsense. The second & more damaging effect is to reduce things that are essentially eternal to much more limited durations.

Knoch has written books on the subject of eons & of course his handling of the words a??? and a?????? totally supports HIS VIEW. Many other people, including myself, have very different views. I have written two articles, 'Aheeown' & ?lam & The Hidden Aeonian Realm which clarify what I have written above & give a completely different interpretation of the words 'aheeown, aheeownios' and olam.

Like Knoch I totally believe in Universal Reconciliation, but not based on translating 'Aheeown' as an eon and 'aheeownios' as eonian.

Even Young's Literal Translation doesn't do what Mr, Knoch does & agrees with Mr. Beecham above.

Deut 33:27 A habitation is the ETERNAL God & beneath are arms age-during. And He casteth out from thy presence the enemy & saith, `Destroy!'

Rom_1:20 for the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world, by the things made being understood, are plainly seen, both His eternal power & Godhead--to their being inexcusable.

I Chron 28:9 `And thou, Solomon, my son, know the God of thy father, and serve Him with a perfect heart, and with a willing mind, for all hearts is Jehovah seeking, and every imagination of the thoughts He is understanding; if thou dost seek Him, He is found of thee & if thou dost forsake Him, He casteth thee off FOR EVER. (see also Ex 15:18; Numbers 24:20; Job 36:7; Psalm 9:5; 16:11; 21:4; Ps 52 and so on)

Mr. Young doesn't have a problem with with verses stating God is eternal or a problem with the English translated word, 'Godhead.' He also doesn't have a problem saying God will cast off wicked people for ever who forsake & reject Him.

And the third part about the poster on here. He has done that to me many times. Pray.



[Edited 4/10/2017 3:34:55 PM ]

4/10/2017 3:39:08 PM Setting The record Straight: Deeds Not Words  

isna_la_wica
Over 7,500 Posts!! (7,832)
Brantford, ON
63, joined Mar. 2012


Quote from followjesusonly:
And don't forget this monstrosity of Genesis:

CLV(i) 1 1Created by the Elohim were the heavens and the earth. 2 Yet the earth became a chaos and vacant, and darkness was on the surface of the submerged chaos. Yet the spirit of the Elohim is vibrating over the surface of the water. 3 And saying is the Elohim, "Become light!" And it is becoming light. 4 And seeing is the Elohim the light, that it is good.

Who can read that? Compared to:

Gen 1:1  In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2  And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Gen 1:3  And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Gen 1:4  And God saw the light, that it was good:

Quote from isna_la_wica:
The Concordant Literal New Testament - Bible Studies for Growth in God
www.growthingod.org.uk/concordant-new-testament.htm


Alternative truth translation ?


Good example.

We have all these experts on Islam here. I wonder, did big Pinocchio ever serve ? Has he ever volunteered to fight radical Islam? Has he ever been embedded with Muslim Soldiers?

He claims to ba an expert on them, he even think he can tell others about bombs. He must have been a bomb tech, I guess.

Well these guys are experts, they are on the front line fighting ISIS, and they put out this letter after the London attack:

Open Letter from the Brits on the front line fighting ISIS:

An Open Letter from British Fighters Against the Islamic State

We are some of an increasing number of British nationals fighting in Syria and Iraq as volunteers with local forces against the Islamic State.

We wish first and foremost to express our sorrow and anger at the recent terrorist attack in Westminster, London, and to convey our sincerest and most heartfelt condolences to the victims and their families. We know only too well what is to lose friends, to treat those horrendously wounded, to pull the dead and dying from the rubble.

We also wish to express sympathy and solidarity with the many ordinary Muslims going to work and school today feeling that they are under special scrutiny, and fearful of what this might mean for them. We share their fear, and we urge anyone who might be tempted to take against ordinary Muslim people to think again. If you associate them with the Islamic State, you are giving such groups exactly what they want: a greater and more violent gap between the Muslim world and ours.

The familiar sounds of hate and bigotry are sounding again – on social media, and in the more guarded mainstream press – where the intent is nonetheless clear. Hate crimes will spike again. There are calls to demolish mosques. The fact that local Muslims raised thousands for victim support, in the immediate aftermath of the attack, is easily drowned out by the bandwagon. The EDL have called a snap demonstration, eager to make hay from the suffering of innocent people.

For all the sound and fury, we don’t remember seeing anyone from Britain First, EDL, UKIP, or their like, by our side in battle. Which is a good thing, because we wouldn’t have tolerated them.

Our ranks are made up of Kurds, Arabs, Yezidis, Brits, Yanks, Canadians, Aussies, Asians, Europeans – Muslims, Christians, Alevis, atheists – too many faiths and races to list. A multi-ethnic, multi-faith entity, standing united against hate and extremism. The majority are, in fact, Muslims, and not only are we proud to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with them – the truth is, we can’t do this without them.

The only way to defeat the Islamic State, and groups like it, is with ordinary, moderate Muslims on side. The only way to defeat hate and extremism is to not give in to it.

Don’t stand with Britain First, the EDL, UKIP or those who talk and think like them. Stand with us.

Signed,

British fighters of the YPG

Joe Akerman

Aiden Aslin

Mark Ayres

Botan England

Macer Gifford

John Harding

Jac Holmes

Steve Kerr

Jim Matthews

Tom Mawdlsey

Ozkan Ozdil

Shaun Pinner

Joe Robinson

Josh Walker
KOM news


Maybe bigP should go over there, and straighten those guys out?

These DH experts on Muslims, read some silly web site and then think they are expert. But they ignore that there are more Muslims fighting Isis than with them. They spit on the Muslims that are fighting and on the ones that have paid the ultimate price in their service.

I said, what difference does it make if a person is not a Christian? He has not answered that. These Bible passages order us to treat refugees properly.

"So I will come to put you on trial. I will be quick to testify against sorcerers, adulterers and perjurers, against those who defraud laborers of their wages, who oppress the widows and the fatherless, and deprive the foreigners among you of justice, but do not fear me,” says the Lord Almighty. (Malachi 3:5)

“As for the foreigner who does not belong to your people Israel but has come from a distant land because of your name— for they will hear of your great name and your mighty hand and your outstretched arm—when they come and pray toward this temple, then hear from heaven, your dwelling place. Do whatever the foreigner asks of you, so that all the peoples of the earth may know your name and fear you, as do your own people Israel, and may know that this house I have built bears your Name. (1 Kings 8:41-44)

For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’ (Matthew 25:25-36)

For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself." (Galatians 5:14)

He asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”

In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him. The next day he took out two denarii and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’

“Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?”

The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.”

Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise." (Luke 10:29-37)

The "expert " on here though thinks that is wrong.



4/10/2017 4:14:21 PM Setting The record Straight: Deeds Not Words  

isna_la_wica
Over 7,500 Posts!! (7,832)
Brantford, ON
63, joined Mar. 2012


Thanks Doc, I have been trying to find more about Robert Beecham . I was not getting a lot of hits.

So I appreciate your contribution Sir.

4/10/2017 5:54:21 PM Setting The record Straight: Deeds Not Words  
mindya
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (23,722)
Vancouver, BC
65, joined Jan. 2009


Quote from isna_la_wica:





4/11/2017 7:20:49 AM Setting The record Straight: Deeds Not Words  

isna_la_wica
Over 7,500 Posts!! (7,832)
Brantford, ON
63, joined Mar. 2012


Deeds not words, is so alien to some, they actually build their salvation on them.

Left with out scripture for almost 2,000 years, until a guy comes along and claims it was all wrong? And that if you do not use his Translation, with special Greek, you are lost?

That is the story this Knoch-ist is trying to sell.

How much different is that, to the other cults who claim there was a 1800 year gap, in the Gospel and it was "hidden", until they the "remnants ' came around.{ Change that "remnants " to what ever the Mormons and JW`s call them selves}.

So many teach that they alone have the "truth". So, God did not tell the world all those centuries, till they came along? My, how special they must think they are ! Wow, no one could handle the "truth" till they came along.

They are truly, "special me" , lets give them a gold star!