"Who Are These People"?

4/16/2017 4:02:19 PM	"Who Are These People"?
isna_la_wica Brantford, ON 63, joined Mar. 2012	Hemant Mehta and Ian Paul both blogged about the statistic (which the BBC also reported on) indicating the percentage of Christians who do not believe Jesus rose from the dead. The former thinks these individuals are confused, while the latter thinks they are non-active Christians. This is probably true of at least some of them. It is indeed possible for people to hold beliefs on one level and yet deny them in practice on another level – as a recent New York Times article about Christians in the American South illustrated. The non-religious who believe that Jesus rose from the dead show that confused atheists also exist – or are they “non-active atheists”? But I suspect that within the statistic are also those liberal Christians who have thought long and hard about the evidence for Jesus having rose from the dead, and have either concluded that the evidence does not allow them to make a historical judgment, or that historical methods cannot answer the question, or who think that Jesus was justified beyond death in a manner that does not require a physical resurrection of the flesh. Far from being confused, such individuals are often able to articulate precisely what their view is, and why they hold it. And so I hope that individuals like Hemant Mehta will not simply ask a rhetorical “Who are you people…?” such as he added to the bar graph. Instead, ask who they are, and then listen to what they think. You may not end up holding the same viewpoint that they do, but the unnecessary sarcasm and dismissiveness might diminish. And what better day to do what I am suggesting above, than Easter? BBC. First the Trinity, then Virgin Birth, and now even the Resurrection? Who are these people? Why do they call themselves Christian? Believing in the Resurrected Christ, is what Christianity is about, no? Meet singles at DateHookup.dating, we're 100% free! Join now!
4/16/2017 4:38:32 PM	"Who Are These People"?
followjesusonly Kingman, AZ 74, joined May. 2012 online now!	Quote from isna_la_wica: Hemant Mehta and Ian Paul both blogged about the statistic (which the BBC also reported on) indicating the percentage of Christians who do not believe Jesus rose from the dead. The former thinks these individuals are confused, while the latter thinks they are non-active Christians. This is probably true of at least some of them. It is indeed possible for people to hold beliefs on one level and yet deny them in practice on another level – as a recent New York Times article about Christians in the American South illustrated. The non-religious who believe that Jesus rose from the dead show that confused atheists also exist – or are they “non-active atheists”? But I suspect that within the statistic are also those liberal Christians who have thought long and hard about the evidence for Jesus having rose from the dead, and have either concluded that the evidence does not allow them to make a historical judgment, or that historical methods cannot answer the question, or who think that Jesus was justified beyond death in a manner that does not require a physical resurrection of the flesh. Far from being confused, such individuals are often able to articulate precisely what their view is, and why they hold it. And so I hope that individuals like Hemant Mehta will not simply ask a rhetorical “Who are you people…?” such as he added to the bar graph. Instead, ask who they are, and then listen to what they think. You may not end up holding the same viewpoint that they do, but the unnecessary sarcasm and dismissiveness might diminish. And what better day to do what I am suggesting above, than Easter? BBC. First the Trinity, then Virgin Birth, and now even the Resurrection? Who are these people? Why do they call themselves Christian? Believing in the Resurrected Christ, is what Christianity is about, no? No, I would say not. At least not what it should be about. It should be about preaching "the gospel of the kingdom" that Jesus preached and which He told His followers to preach. The Resurrection is not the gospel. "And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching *the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people." (Matthew 9:35) "And this gospel of the kingdom* shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." (Mat_24:14)
4/16/2017 4:52:20 PM	"Who Are These People"?
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 65, joined Feb. 2008 online now!	Those are interesting statistics but of course what people think happened, and what really happened, are two different things. If we believe in God---if we believe He created the entire universe---if we believe He created life in the first place---why is it hard to believe that He could raise Himself from the dead? Similarly, why is it hard to believe Jesus was born of a virgin, or to believe in all the other miracles Jesus performed? (Not directed at you, Isna, I know you believe all these things.)
4/16/2017 5:07:33 PM	"Who Are These People"?
followjesusonly Kingman, AZ 74, joined May. 2012 online now!	Ludlow says: "-why is it hard to believe that He could raise Himself from the dead? Similarly, why is it hard to believe Jesus was born of a virgin..." ================================================================================= Again, Ludlow lies by implication and the use of a question. Who said it was "hard"? Just because someone exercises their God given freewill not to believe all the junk you believe doesn't mean it's "hard" for them. You don't respect the freewill to believe or not believe that God gave everyone. I suspect that's because you have given up yours. You don't even respect God enough to obey Him. "Why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?" (Luke 6:46)
4/16/2017 5:19:30 PM	"Who Are These People"?
iam_resurrected Reno, NV 47, joined Jul. 2014	Why does believing that Yahshua came to this world not like the 1,000 mythical pagan virgin birth gods not mean that I am not believing in the Absolute Divinity of Christ Yahshua?
4/16/2017 5:40:37 PM	"Who Are These People"?
isna_la_wica Brantford, ON 63, joined Mar. 2012	Quote from followjesusonly: No, I would say not. At least not what it should be about. It should be about preaching "the gospel of the kingdom" that Jesus preached and which He told His followers to preach. The Resurrection is not the gospel. "And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching *the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people." (Matthew 9:35) "And this gospel of the kingdom* shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." (Mat_24:14) So Urantia denies the Resurrection I see: The Urantia Book 1. The Morontia Transit 189:1.1 (2020.4) At two forty-five Sunday morning, the Paradise incarnation commission, consisting of seven unidentified Paradise personalities, arrived on the scene and immediately deployed themselves about the tomb. At ten minutes before three, intense vibrations of commingled material and morontia activities began to issue from Joseph’s new tomb, and at two minutes past three o’clock, this Sunday morning, April 9, A.D. 30, the resurrected morontia form and personality of Jesus of Nazareth came forth from the tomb. 189:1.2 (2021.1) After the resurrected Jesus emerged from his burial tomb, the body of flesh in which he had lived and wrought on earth for almost thirty-six years was still lying there in the sepulchre niche, undisturbed and wrapped in the linen sheet, just as it had been laid to rest by Joseph and his associates on Friday afternoon. Neither was the stone before the entrance of the tomb in any way disturbed; the seal of Pilate was still unbroken; the soldiers were still on guard. The temple guards had been on continuous duty; the Roman guard had been changed at midnight. None of these watchers suspected that the object of their vigil had risen to a new and higher form of existence, and that the body which they were guarding was now a discarded outer covering which had no further connection with the delivered and resurrected morontia personality of Jesus. Paper 189 - The Resurrection \| Urantia Book \| Urantia Foundation www.urantia.org/urantia-book-standardized/paper-189-resurrection Jesus was Michael, an Angel, and all he was then was a 'teacher"? And being an Angel, a spiritual being, how is it that he could die anyway? Can men, kill angels? You reminded me that J/W`s think he was Michael and Angel as well, so I looked them up and they deny the Resurrection. -Christ is not equal to God because He is a creature. -Christ was first of God's creations -Christ died on a stake, not a cross -Christ was raised from the dead as an immortal spirit person So, that explains some of them. What other group?
4/16/2017 6:22:15 PM	"Who Are These People"?
followjesusonly Kingman, AZ 74, joined May. 2012 online now!	Quote from isna_la_wica: Paper 189 - The Resurrection \| Urantia Book \| Urantia Foundation www.urantia.org/urantia-book-standardized/paper-189-resurrection So Urantia denies the Resurrection I see: Oh no. Absolutely not. You must be confused about something. Paper 189 is all about The Resurrection, as you show above. The Resurrection is not the "gospel," however. Jesus was Michael, an Angel, Oh no. You must be confused about something. Jesus is not/was not, an angel. That's a Jehovah's witness belief, I believe. and all he was then was a 'teacher"? Well, Jesus was always teaching. Do you have some sort of quote? And being an Angel, a spiritual being, Jesus was not an angel. Jesus was always the Son of God, a member of God's divine family. Angels are not that. how is it that he could die anyway? Can men, kill angels? Jesus was not an angel. He was an incarnate Son of God. He allowed men to kill his body in order to show that He would not interfere in their God given freewill to do evil. You reminded me that J/W`s think he was Michael and Angel as well, so I looked them up and they deny the Resurrection. Well, we don't deny the Resurrection. It simply is not "the gospel of the kingdom." There's an entire paper on it in the book. And we don't believe that Jesus was an angel or archangel, whatever the JW's believe, -it has nothing to do with us. Even the bible says that Michael was a prince (the book of Daniel), and princes are the sons of the king. Angels are servants in the king's house. -Christ is not equal to God because He is a creature. -Christ was first of God's creations -Christ died on a stake, not a cross -Christ was raised from the dead as an immortal spirit person Are those JW's views? Interesting, but they are not Urantia Book views. They get their views from the bible. They have their own version. So, that explains some of them. What other group?
4/17/2017 9:31:21 AM	"Who Are These People"?
isna_la_wica Brantford, ON 63, joined Mar. 2012	Paper 189 - The Resurrection \| Urantia Book \| Urantia Foundation www.urantia.org/urantia-book-standardized/paper-189-resurrection So Urantia denies the Resurrection I see: My bad on that, I meant to explain further but forgot to come back to it before posting. Grand kids are distracting ,lol. Yes, Urantia claims it is a "Resurrection ", but is it? It starts by saying so: "189:1.2 (2021.1) After the resurrected Jesus emerged from his burial tomb," But then goes on and says this: "the body of flesh in which he had lived and wrought on earth for almost thirty-six years was still lying there in the sepulchre niche, undisturbed and wrapped in the linen sheet, just as it had been laid to rest by Joseph and his associates on Friday afternoon". And so the reader thinks and wonders, well then, he was given a re created body?But reading further we see this: "189:1.4 (2021.3) As far as we can judge, no creature of this universe nor any personality from another universe had anything to do with this morontia resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth. On Friday he laid down his life as a mortal of the realm; on Sunday morning he took it up again as a morontia being of the system of Satania in Norlatiadek. There is much about the resurrection of Jesus which we do not understand. But we know that it occurred as we have stated and at about the time indicated. We can also record that all known phenomena associated with this mortal transit, or morontia resurrection, occurred right there in Joseph’s new tomb, where the mortal material remains of Jesus lay wrapped in burial cloths. 189:1.5 (2021.4) We know that no creature of the local universe participated in this morontia awakening. We perceived the seven personalities of Paradise surround the tomb, but we did not see them do anything in connection with the Master’s awakening. Just as soon as Jesus appeared beside Gabriel, just above the tomb, the seven personalities from Paradise signalized their intention of immediate departure for Uversa." In a strange round about way, this actually resembles my own personal view about life after death, and prior to the final stage. But I think there are different dimensions. I really do not think than when we die, we simply become some sort of disembodied spirit, or ghost. We were always meant to be physical beings, its what we were designed to be. So to me, it is not at all out of the realm of possibility that we do exist in an actual physical way after death. Final Resurrection in my opinion, and I am just speculating here , is not just for us, but rather the whole universe and different dimensions of it. Its the way I envision it any way. And its a occupational hazard I guess, but I have to be able to do that. Kingdom of God to me, merges with earth , our bodies in life after death, that dimensional realm , merge once again with our physical that we had here on earth. Summed up best here: Revelation 21:3-4 Amplified Bible (AMP) 3 and then I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “See! The tabernacle of God is among men, and He will live among them, and they will be His people, and God Himself will be with them [a][as their God,] 4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be death; there will no longer be sorrow and anguish, or crying, or pain; for the former order of things has passed away.” Now, I know how much you oppose the concept of a multi verse , Creation. And as for the ones seeking the destruction of every thing, and think some physical city that replaces it all comes down, they foam at the mouth at this. So I stress, this is just my opinion. How ever, it is not contrary to scripture. But to me, being restored, being resurrected? Is not a replacement or a new model, so to speak. It is, the original being restored. Perhaps improved, more sense available. Jesus looked the same , while at the time was different, in ways the witnesses seemed to marvel at. To me? That seems to indicate he had the abilities of a 6 or 7, dimension universe while being here in a 4 dimensional universe. Gods kingdom, come on earth as it is in heaven. So, while Urantia claims it was a "Resurrection", if his original body was still in the tomb? It would be a replacement, a replica. So, that is why I do not think that describes a "Resurrection". {Again I want to stress. This is just my opinion, I am not going to argue any more about expansion of the universe or any thing like it.}
4/17/2017 9:56:26 AM	"Who Are These People"?
isna_la_wica Brantford, ON 63, joined Mar. 2012	I said Jesus was Michael, an Angel, furch Oh no. You must be confused about something. Jesus is not/was not, an angel. That's a Jehovah's witness belief, I believe. OK, I got that wrong. My bad. I said: and all he was then was a 'teacher"? furch Well, Jesus was always teaching. Do you have some sort of quote? That is the impression I got from when you said this: Furch No, I would say not. At least not what it should be about. It should be about preaching "the gospel of the kingdom" that Jesus preached and which He told His followers to preach. The Resurrection is not the gospel. "And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people." (Matthew 9:35) "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." (Mat_24:14) Is that not what you are you are saying? That it is to teach the gospel and Resurrection and the Cross is not part of the Gospel? "gos·pel 'gäsp?l/ noun 1. the teaching or revelation of Christ. "it is the Church's mission to preach the gospel" synonyms: Christian teaching, Christian doctrine, Christ's teaching; the word of God, the good news, the New Testament "the Gospel according to John" 2 the record of Jesus' life and teaching in the first four books of the New Testament." Was the Resurrection an integral part of the Gospel? I think it was for sure. In fact, when Jesus prayed, he did not first pray for peace, for healing, for all the things we pray for. After praising God, his first order of business was, "Thy kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven". And to me, that is exactly what happened with the Resurrection. . John 2:18-22 Amplified Bible (AMP) 18 Then the Jews retorted, “What sign (attesting miracle) can You show us as [proof of] your authority for doing these things?” 19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” 20 Then the Jews replied, “It took forty-six years to build this temple, and You will raise it up in three days?” 21 But He was speaking of the temple which was His body. 22 So when He had risen from the dead, His disciples remembered what He had said. And they believed and trusted in and relied on the Scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken. I do not see how you can remove the Cross and Resurrection from what Jesus taught. Lots of churches do now Days I know. I went to one for a while. All their prayers were for, starving people to get fed, peace, etc, etc. And there is nothing wrong with that, sure. But to me, it was like they were ignoring so much. They wanted people to become "good". But is that, all there is to it all? I get frustrated at Christians who judge people that are not believers. You see it all the time! They claim they are evangelizing for example, when they try and turn Gay people straight. But not one has ever answered this question, if some how you were able to turn every "Gay" straight, how many souls have been "saved"? Or in ht case of my old church, if you got every hungry person fed, and I would say awesome, but how many have been saved in a spiritual sense? To me, you cannot teach the Gospel of Jesus, and ignore the Cross or Resurrection.
4/17/2017 11:12:56 AM	"Who Are These People"?
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 65, joined Feb. 2008 online now!	"And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain." --St. Paul (1 Corinthians 15:14)
4/17/2017 11:23:37 AM	"Who Are These People"?
isna_la_wica Brantford, ON 63, joined Mar. 2012	Quote from ludlowlowell: "And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain." --St. Paul (1 Corinthians 15:14) Good verse. I agree .
4/17/2017 5:25:35 PM	"Who Are These People"?
followjesusonly Kingman, AZ 74, joined May. 2012 online now!	@isna, probably part 1 of Isna: My bad on that, I meant to explain further but forgot to come back to it before posting. Grand kids are distracting ,lol. Yes, Urantia claims it is a "Resurrection ", but is it? Sure it is. It starts by saying so: "189:1.2 (2021.1) After the resurrected Jesus emerged from his burial tomb," Jesus resurrected. It's clear from 189:1.2. But then goes on and says this: "the body of flesh in which he had lived and wrought on earth for almost thirty-six years was still lying there in the sepulchre niche, undisturbed and wrapped in the linen sheet, just as it had been laid to rest by Joseph and his associates on Friday afternoon". The person of Jesus resurrected. His dead human physical body did not. And so the reader thinks and wonders, well then, he was given a re created body? It's a new body called a "morontia" body. It's an intermediate state of being between the physical and the spiritual. It's a natural progression of events. We all will have such a body for a time if we survive to eternal life. Christians hold up John 20:27 to show that Jesus had a physical body, but they NEVER hold up John 20:17, ten verses earlier, where Jesus tells Mary to "touch me not." And He tells her that because His body is not like before. Perhaps she would have gotten an electric shock or simply been freaked out when her hand passed through his body. I don't know. So He told her not to touch Him. Regarding John 20:27, The Urantia Book says it went down this way: 191:5.4 When the Master had so spoken, he looked down into the face of Thomas and said: “And you, Thomas, who said you would not believe unless you could see me and put your finger in the nail marks of my hands, have now beheld me and heard my words; and though you see no nail marks on my hands, since I am raised in the form that you also shall have when you depart from this world, what will you say to your brethren? You will acknowledge the truth, for already in your heart you had begun to believe even when you so stoutly asserted your unbelief. Your doubts, Thomas, always most stubbornly assert themselves just as they are about to crumble. Thomas, I bid you be not faithless but believing—and I know you will believe, even with a whole heart.” It would seem that someone took some liberties at John 20:27 in order to advance an agenda. But reading further we see this: "189:1.4 (2021.3) As far as we can judge, no creature of this universe nor any personality from another universe had anything to do with this morontia resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth. On Friday he laid down his life as a mortal of the realm; on Sunday morning he took it up again as a morontia being of the system of Satania in Norlatiadek. There is much about the resurrection of Jesus which we do not understand. But we know that it occurred as we have stated and at about the time indicated. We can also record that all known phenomena associated with this mortal transit, or morontia resurrection, occurred right there in Joseph’s new tomb, where the mortal material remains of Jesus lay wrapped in burial cloths. 189:1.5 (2021.4) We know that no creature of the local universe participated in this morontia awakening. We perceived the seven personalities of Paradise surround the tomb, but we did not see them do anything in connection with the Master’s awakening. Just as soon as Jesus appeared beside Gabriel, just above the tomb, the seven personalities from Paradise signalized their intention of immediate departure for Uversa." In a strange round about way, this actually resembles my own personal view about life after death, and prior to the final stage. But I think there are different dimensions. I really do not think than when we die, we simply become some sort of disembodied spirit, or ghost. We were always meant to be physical beings, its what we were designed to be. A morontia body is not a disembodied spirit or ghost. It's a real thing, a real body, it's simply not the physical, material as we are now. In fact, I don't even think spirit beings such as angels are "disembodied spirits" either. So to me, it is not at all out of the realm of possibility that we do exist in an actual physical way after death. Final Resurrection in my opinion, and I am just speculating here , is not just for us, but rather the whole universe and different dimensions of it. Its the way I envision it any way. And its a occupational hazard I guess, but I have to be able to do that. Kingdom of God to me, merges with earth , our bodies in life after death, that dimensional realm , merge once again with our physical that we had here on earth. Your identity, what makes you, you, will have a morontia body after death, and then later, a spiritual body. Summed up best here: Revelation 21:3-4 Amplified Bible (AMP) 3 and then I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “See! The tabernacle of God is among men, and He will live among them, and they will be His people, and God Himself will be with them [a][as their God,] 4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be death; there will no longer be sorrow and anguish, or crying, or pain; for the former order of things has passed away.” Now, I know how much you oppose the concept of a multi verse , Creation. ? Who are you talking to? Who opposes "the concept of a multi verse"? I'm not even sure what you mean by a multi verse. So I don't know if I oppose it or not. Maybe you're meaning someone else. And as for the ones seeking the destruction of every thing, and think some physical city that replaces it all comes down, they foam at the mouth at this. You lost me. So I stress, this is just my opinion. How ever, it is not contrary to scripture. But to me, being restored, being resurrected? Is not a replacement or a new model, so to speak. It is, the original being restored. Perhaps improved, more sense available. Jesus looked the same , while at the time was different, in ways the witnesses seemed to marvel at. To me? That seems to indicate he had the abilities of a 6 or 7, dimension universe while being here in a 4 dimensional universe. Gods kingdom, come on earth as it is in heaven. So, while Urantia claims it was a "Resurrection", if his original body was still in the tomb? It would be a replacement, a replica. So, that is why I do not think that describes a "Resurrection". The person of Jesus was resurrected. His dead, old human body is not who Jesus is. Your body is not who you are. {Again I want to stress. This is just my opinion, I am not going to argue any more about expansion of the universe or any thing like it.} Continued in Part 2
4/17/2017 5:29:48 PM	"Who Are These People"?
followjesusonly Kingman, AZ 74, joined May. 2012 online now!	Part 2 I said Jesus was Michael, an Angel, furch Oh no. You must be confused about something. Jesus is not/was not, an angel. That's a Jehovah's witness belief, I believe. OK, I got that wrong. My bad. I said: and all he was then was a 'teacher"? furch Well, Jesus was always teaching. Do you have some sort of quote? That is the impression I got from when you said this: Furch No, I would say not. At least not what it should be about. It should be about preaching "the gospel of the kingdom" that Jesus preached and which He told His followers to preach. The Resurrection is not the gospel. "And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people." (Matthew 9:35) "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." (Mat_24:14) Is that not what you are you are saying? That it is to teach the gospel and Resurrection and the Cross is not part of the Gospel? The Resurrection and the Cross are part of the Christian gospel ABOUT Jesus. Yes. But the Resurrection and the Cross are not "The Gospel of the kingdom" that Jesus preached and which He told His followers to preach. The Resurrection and the Cross are "the gospel ABOUT Jesus," from Paul and others, -they are not "the gospel OF Jesus" from Jesus. "gos·pel 'gäsp?l/ noun 1. the teaching or revelation of Christ. "it is the Church's mission to preach the gospel" synonyms: Christian teaching, Christian doctrine, Christ's teaching; the word of God, the good news, the New Testament "the Gospel according to John" 2 the record of Jesus' life and teaching in the first four books of the New Testament." Was the Resurrection an integral part of the Gospel? It's an integral part of the Christian gospel ABOUT Jesus. Yes. The #1 definition you have above is "the teaching or revelation of Christ." Let's shorten that to "the teaching ... of Christ." The Resurrection is the teaching ABOUT Christ. I think it was for sure. All Christians will say that. It's what they've been taught. In fact, when Jesus prayed, he did not first pray for peace, for healing, for all the things we pray for. After praising God, his first order of business was, "Thy kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven". And to me, that is exactly what happened with the Resurrection. . I don't think Jesus prayed that prayer. He simply gave it to the apostles. They wanted Him to give them a specific prayer and He did so. Yes, when we are resurrected we will be just like Jesus when He was resurrected, in the same form. But that's not the gospel of the kingdom that Jesus preached and which He said to preach to all the world. John 2:18-22 Amplified Bible (AMP) 18 Then the Jews retorted, “What sign (attesting miracle) can You show us as [proof of] your authority for doing these things?” 19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” 20 Then the Jews replied, “It took forty-six years to build this temple, and You will raise it up in three days?” 21 But He was speaking of the temple which was His body. 22 So when He had risen from the dead, His disciples remembered what He had said. And they believed and trusted in and relied on the Scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken. I do not see how you can remove the Cross and Resurrection from what Jesus taught. I have never said anything about removing the Cross and the Resurrection from what Jesus taught. All I am saying is that the Cross and the Resurrection are not the gospel of the kingdom that Jesus preached in this verse "And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, " (Matthew 9:35) nor is it the gospel of the kingdom that Jesus referred to in this verse: Mat_24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world... Christians have never preached the gospel of the kingdom that Jesus told them to preach. Instead, they have preached the gospel that Paul told them to preach, or risk being "accursed." (Gal_1:8) Lots of churches do now Days I know. I went to one for a while. All their prayers were for, starving people to get fed, peace, etc, etc. And there is nothing wrong with that, sure. But to me, it was like they were ignoring so much. They wanted people to become "good". But is that, all there is to it all? I get frustrated at Christians who judge people that are not believers. You see it all the time! They claim they are evangelizing for example, when they try and turn Gay people straight. But not one has ever answered this question, if some how you were able to turn every "Gay" straight, how many souls have been "saved"? Or in ht case of my old church, if you got every hungry person fed, and I would say awesome, but how many have been saved in a spiritual sense? To me, you cannot teach the Gospel of Jesus, and ignore the Cross or Resurrection. I do not advocate "ignoring" the Cross or the Resurrection. But they are simply not the gospel of the kingdom that Jesus preached. Nor are they "the gospel OF Jesus." They are the gospel ABOUT Jesus. It's like Wallace and Gromit and "The Wrong Trousers." Jesus didn't come here to preach ABOUT Jesus. Here are a few short excerpts from The Urantia Book on "the gospel of the kingdom." 142:7.4 [Jesus] next explained that the “kingdom idea” was not the best way to illustrate man’s relation to God; that he employed such figures of speech because the Jewish people were expecting the kingdom, and because John had preached in terms of the coming kingdom. Jesus said: “The people of another age will better understand the gospel of the kingdom when it is presented in terms expressive of the family relationship—when man understands religion as the teaching of the fatherhood of God and the brotherhood of man, sonship with God.” 193:0.4 The gospel of the kingdom is concerned with the love of the Father and the service of his children on earth. 194:0.4 The gospel of the kingdom is: the fact of the fatherhood of God, coupled with the resultant truth of the sonship-brotherhood of men. Christianity, as it developed from that day, is: the fact of God as the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ, in association with the experience of believer-fellowship with the risen and glorified Christ. -The Urantia Book
4/17/2017 7:46:40 PM	"Who Are These People"?
isna_la_wica Brantford, ON 63, joined Mar. 2012	A morontia body is not a disembodied spirit or ghost. It's a real thing, a real body, it's simply not the physical, material as we are now. In fact, I don't even think spirit beings such as angels are "disembodied spirits" either. Like I said, in a round about way, its similar to what I think. ? Who are you talking to? Who opposes "the concept of a multi verse"? I'm not even sure what you mean by a multi verse. So I don't know if I oppose it or not. Maybe you're meaning someone else. You, you or KB went at me on the BBT thread when I talked about it. Not going there again. I am stating my opinion and made sure I worded it as such. Me And as for the ones seeking the destruction of every thing, and think some physical city that replaces it all comes down, they foam at the mouth at this. Furch You lost me. That was not for you, at least I think. Its for the LaHaye , Van Impe etc, bunch . Cannot remember exactly, but do not think Urantia teaches that. The Resurrection and the Cross are part of the Christian gospel ABOUT Jesus. Yes. But the Resurrection and the Cross are not "The Gospel of the kingdom" that Jesus preached and which He told His followers to preach. The Resurrection and the Cross are "the gospel ABOUT Jesus," from Paul and others, -they are not "the gospel OF Jesus" from Jesus. We will always argue about that. 1 Peter 2:24 Young's Literal Translation (YLT) 24 who our sins himself did bear in his body, upon the tree, that to the sins having died, to the righteousness we may live; by whose stripes ye were healed, All Christians will say that. It's what they've been taught. Nope. I threw all I had learned out and was an Agnostic and some times Atheist for almost 40 years. Sorry, but you can not claim I was brain washed. I don't think Jesus prayed that prayer. He simply gave it to the apostles. They wanted Him to give them a specific prayer and He did so. Yes, when we are resurrected we will be just like Jesus when He was resurrected, in the same form. But that's not the gospel of the kingdom that Jesus preached and which He said to preach to all the world. Jesus did not pray that? Or if he taught it, it does not mean he meant it? Why, does Urantia says that?
4/17/2017 9:29:44 PM	"Who Are These People"?
followjesusonly Kingman, AZ 74, joined May. 2012 online now!	Me A morontia body is not a disembodied spirit or ghost. It's a real thing, a real body, it's simply not the physical, material as we are now. In fact, I don't even think spirit beings such as angels are "disembodied spirits" either. Like I said, in a round about way, its similar to what I think. Me ? Who are you talking to? Who opposes "the concept of a multi verse"? I'm not even sure what you mean by a multi verse. So I don't know if I oppose it or not. Maybe you're meaning someone else. You, you or KB went at me on the BBT thread when I talked about it. Not going there again. I am stating my opinion and made sure I worded it as such. I remember the thread but I have never used the word "multiverse" as far as I know. I don't know what a multiverse is. Isna prev And as for the ones seeking the destruction of every thing, and think some physical city that replaces it all comes down, they foam at the mouth at this. Furch You lost me. That was not for you, at least I think. Its for the LaHaye , Van Impe etc, bunch . Cannot remember exactly, but do not think Urantia teaches that. Well, we could start a thread about it. Me, prev The Resurrection and the Cross are part of the Christian gospel ABOUT Jesus. Yes. But the Resurrection and the Cross are not "The Gospel of the kingdom" that Jesus preached and which He told His followers to preach. The Resurrection and the Cross are "the gospel ABOUT Jesus," from Paul and others, -they are not "the gospel OF Jesus" from Jesus. We will always argue about that. 1 Peter 2:24 Young's Literal Translation (YLT) 24 who our sins himself did bear in his body, upon the tree, that to the sins having died, to the righteousness we may live; by whose stripes ye were healed, I don't follow Peter. I follow Jesus only. Me, prev All Christians will say that. It's what they've been taught. Nope. I threw all I had learned out and was an Agnostic and some times Atheist for almost 40 years. Sorry, but you can not claim I was brain washed. I never said you were brainwashed, but, you cannot "un-know" what you have been taught even if you set it aside for some atheist and agnostic years. When you stepped back in it's just like putting on an old pair of shoes, some of the old teachings are easy to re-adopt. Me, prev I don't think Jesus prayed that prayer. He simply gave it to the apostles. They wanted Him to give them a specific prayer and He did so. Yes, when we are resurrected we will be just like Jesus when He was resurrected, in the same form. But that's not the gospel of the kingdom that Jesus preached and which He said to preach to all the world. Jesus did not pray that? Or if he taught it, it does not mean he meant it? Why, does Urantia says that? Both the bible and The Urantia Book say that. Luk 11:1 And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples. Luk 11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. Luk 11:3 Give us day by day our daily bread. Luk 11:4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil. -King James ====================================== THE BELIEVER’S PRAYER 144:3.1 But the apostles were not yet satisfied; they desired Jesus to give them a model prayer which they could teach the new disciples. After listening to this discourse on prayer, James Zebedee said: “Very good, Master, but we do not desire a form of prayer for ourselves so much as for the newer believers who so frequently beseech us, ‘Teach us how acceptably to pray to the Father in heaven.’” 144:3.2 When James had finished speaking, Jesus said: “If, then, you still desire such a prayer, I would present the one which I taught my brothers and sisters in Nazareth”: 144:3.3 Our Father who is in heaven, Hallowed be your name. Your kingdom come; your will be done On earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our bread for tomorrow; Refresh our souls with the water of life. And forgive us every one our debts As we also have forgiven our debtors. Save us in temptation, deliver us from evil, And increasingly make us perfect like yourself. 144:3.4 It is not strange that the apostles desired Jesus to teach them a model prayer for believers. John the Baptist had taught his followers several prayers; all great teachers had formulated prayers for their pupils. The religious teachers of the Jews had some twenty-five or thirty set prayers which they recited in the synagogues and even on the street corners. Jesus was particularly averse to praying in public. Up to this time the twelve had heard him pray only a few times. They observed him spending entire nights at prayer or worship, and they were very curious to know the manner or form of his petitions. They were really hard pressed to know what to answer the multitudes when they asked to be taught how to pray as John had taught his disciples. 144:3.5 Jesus taught the twelve always to pray in secret; to go off by themselves amidst the quiet surroundings of nature or to go in their rooms and shut the doors when they engaged in prayer. 144:3.6 After Jesus’ death and ascension to the Father it became the practice of many believers to finish this so-called Lord’s prayer by the addition of—“In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.” Still later on, two lines were lost in copying, and there was added to this prayer an extra clause, reading: “For yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory, forevermore.” 144:3.7 Jesus gave the apostles the prayer in collective form as they had prayed it in the Nazareth home. He never taught a formal personal prayer, only group, family, or social petitions. And he never volunteered to do that. -The Urantia Book
4/18/2017 1:50:05 AM	"Who Are These People"?
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	Galatians 1:6-9,11,12 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are TURNING TO A DIFFERENT GOSPEL—which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you INTO CONFUSION & are trying to PERVERT the gospel OF CHRIST. 8But even if we or an ANGEL from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse! I want you to know, brethren, that THE GOSPEL I PREACH is not of human origin. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I RECEIVED IT BY REVELATION FROM JESUS CHRIST. I Cor 15:1-4 Now, brethren, I want to remind you of THE GOSPELv I PREACHED to you, which you RECEIVED & on which you have taken your stand. By THIS GOSPEL U R SAVED, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For WHAT I RECEIVED I PASSED ON TO U AS OF FIRST IMPORTANCE: that Christ DIED FOR OUR SINS according to THE SCRIPTURES, that he was buried, that HE WAS RAISED ON THE THIRD DAY according to THE SCRIPTURES...And IF CHRIST HAS NOT BEEN RAISED, THEN OUR PREACHING IS USELESS & SO IS YOUR FAITH. More than that, we are then found to be FALSE witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that He raised Christ from the dead. But He did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is FUTILE; you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are LOST. Romans 10:2,3,8-10 I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness of God & SOUGHT TO ESTABLISH THEIR OWN, they did not SUBMIT to God’s righteousness...The word is near you; it is in your mouth & in your heart,” that is, THE MESSAGE CONCERNING FAITH THAT WE PREACH: If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord” & believe in your heart that GOD RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD YOU WILL BE SAVED. For IT IS WITH THE HEART THAT YOU BELIEVE & ARE JUSTIFIED & it is with your mouth that you profess your faith & are saved.
5/1/2017 12:55:01 PM	"Who Are These People"?
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	"These people" are the ones of the 'great falling away/apostacy/great rebellion/great revolt' time predicted by the Apostle Paul. This period of time occurs PRIOR to the revealment of the 'man of sin/man of lawlessness/I am God counterfeit' the final antichrist. This Christ imposter will be seen & known around the world prior to Jesus physical return to the earth in judgment of those trying to destroy Israel & the national repentance of that nation. 2 Thess 2:1-12 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ & our gathering together to Him, 2 so that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either BY A SPIRIT or A MESSAGE (WORD) or A LETTER (EPISTLE) AS IF FROM US [conterfeit apostolic one] to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3LET NO ONE IN ANY WAY DECEIVE U, for it WILL NOT COME UNLESS the great apostasy comes first AND the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. 5Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? 6And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. 7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. 8Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness. I have never seen such a wholesale apostacy and falling away of people once thought to be contenders of the faith ONCE FOR ALL DELIVERED TO THE SAINTS. All the ancient, historical, FOUNDATIONAL (Heb 5:11-6:2) truths consistently taught since the time of Christ (Christ's Deity & Messiahship, the Trinity, the physical resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ, the Bible is God's Word, the reality of the coming judgment of the earth by fire (first judgment was by a worldwide floos which also isn't believed anymore) & the unending punishment of the wicked & unbelieving in hell aka gehenna aka lake of fire. This great falling away will result in the latter part being the fullness of this apostacy in revolting against Christians. Much blood will be shed for those who testify that homosexuality, adultery & pedophilia is sin & that Jesus Christ is 'the only name under heaven given among men by which we MUST be saved' & NO ONE 'comes to the Father except THROUGH Him, demonstrating the Father isn't the Son & vice versa. The flood of satanic cults, false teachers & heretical teachers & false apostolic letters & writings during the first four centuries are being revived in our day & age & going far beyond. The new Bible being touted includes ALL THESE gnostic & counterfeit apostiic writings being found. Jesus being married & having children is finding a new re-surgence. Supposed Christian leaders are now teaching false doctrines & falling away (presemt head of the SBC, the 'Bible answer man' and so many more. There have been more false predictions of the coming of Christ in the last 2 centuries than in all of time before that. As Paul stated above, Christ will NOT physically return to judge the earth & establish an earthly kingdom centered in Israel UNTIL: 1) the great apostacy/revolt/falling away occurs 2) man of sin, lawlessness, blasphemy APPEARS & leads the world in worshipping him as god 3) the Jewish temple will be rebuilt obviously, for him to set himself up IN THE TEMPLE as the supposed god above all gods. (Notice: this is not the final eternal kingdom of the Son & His Father that Jesus talked about: 'My kingdom is not of this world' the one that comes down out of heaven in the new heavens & earth in which righteousness dwells with no death, etc.) Paul taught those he wrote to & to us not to be ALARMED or shaken in our faith. Christ has not returned yet, despite all the false prophets & teachers who have taught this. Jesus taught us the same. Matt 7:13-23 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. 15“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. 21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ Matt 24:4,10-15 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. 15“So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’a spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand. Mark 13:19-23 For in those days there will be tribulation UNMATCHED SINCE the beginning of God’s creation UNTIL NOW & NEVER WILL BE SEEN AGAIN. 20If the Lord had not shortened those days, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, whom He has chosen, He has shortened themAt that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There He is!’ do not believe it. 22For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and wonders that would deceive even the elect, if that were possible. 23So be on your guard; I have told you everything in advance. Luke 18:8 Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on earth?”
5/1/2017 12:55:23 PM	"Who Are These People"?
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	continued... It is only going to get worse. 2 Tim 2:15-18 Make every effort to present yourself approved to God, an unashamed workman who accurately handles the word of truth. 16But avoid godless & empty (worthless) chatter, which will only lead to more ungodliness, 17and the talk of such men will spread like GANGRENE. Among them are Hymenaeus & Philetus, 18who have DEVIATED FROM THE TRUTH. They say that THE RESURRECTION HAS ALREADY OCCURRED & they UNDERMINE the faith of some. 2 Tim 3:12-14 Indeed, all who desire to live godly lives in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, 13while evil men & imposters go FROM BAD TO WORSE, DECEIVING & BEING DECEIVED. 14But as for you, continue in the things you have learned and firmly believed, since you know from whom you learned them. DHU Christian only section is just a microcosm of what is happening worldwide. It is rampant with false teachers & deceivers, the tares among the wheat. Stay strong in your faith once for all delivered to the saints. Walk in the grace in which we now stand, build ourselves up in our most holy faith & in the love of our Lord. Let the love of the brethren continue! Hallel YAH!
5/1/2017 2:46:54 PM	"Who Are These People"?
isna_la_wica Brantford, ON 63, joined Mar. 2012	There have been more false predictions of the coming of Christ in the last 2 centuries than in all of time before that. I had a long talk with some door knockers J/Ws just yesterday. And I brought up all the failed prophecies that have been made by that group. They were well prepared and even carried I pads so they could get the right "cover story". I could not help but smile at it all. They took that the wrong way of course, perhaps thinking i was glad to hear the lies. It was kinda funny, in a sad way. When I made it clear, they were not at all speaking the gospel, they then accused me of being a "cafeteria " Christian. That term has been used on here before. I laughed ad said, yes, that is true! I pick what I follow from Scripture, and do not drink the kool aid so many find out side of Scripture or even false Denominational translations. Its sad, that the biggest enemies of the Gospel, claim they are Christian.
5/1/2017 10:06:50 PM	"Who Are These People"?
followjesusonly Kingman, AZ 74, joined May. 2012 online now!	Quote from isna_la_wica: I had a long talk with some door knockers J/Ws just yesterday. And I brought up all the failed prophecies that have been made by that group. They were well prepared and even carried I pads so they could get the right "cover story". I could not help but smile at it all. They took that the wrong way of course, perhaps thinking i was glad to hear the lies. It was kinda funny, in a sad way. When I made it clear, they were not at all speaking the gospel, they then accused me of being a "cafeteria " Christian. That term has been used on here before. I laughed ad said, yes, that is true! I pick what I follow from Scripture, and do not drink the kool aid so many find out side of Scripture or even false Denominational translations. Its sad, that the biggest enemies of the Gospel, claim they are Christian. Lud uses that a lot, "cafeteria " Christian, he says, if you don't agree with his sect's doctrines. In a way, everyone, every Christian, is a "cafeteria " Christian. Everyone picks and chooses what he or she believes. Just because someone buys into the entire program that some sect is offering, be it Cathlick or Jehovah's Witness or Mormon or whatever, doesn't mean that person is any less of a "cafeteria " Christian. But it's a good cheap shot to throw out there, along with the word "cult." Don't like what someone believes because it's not what YOU believe? Just label their beliefs a cult and be done with it.
5/2/2017 7:50:01 AM	"Who Are These People"?
isna_la_wica Brantford, ON 63, joined Mar. 2012	Quote from followjesusonly: Lud uses that a lot, "cafeteria " Christian, he says, if you don't agree with his sect's doctrines. In a way, everyone, every Christian, is a "cafeteria " Christian. Everyone picks and chooses what he or she believes. Just because someone buys into the entire program that some sect is offering, be it Cathlick or Jehovah's Witness or Mormon or whatever, doesn't mean that person is any less of a "cafeteria " Christian. But it's a good cheap shot to throw out there, along with the word "cult." Don't like what someone believes because it's not what YOU believe? Just label their beliefs a cult and be done with it. I have never figured out how one can totally believe every thing a particular church says. I am the same with Politics though, even though I am a member of a party and am active in it, it does not mean I agree with it on every issue. We seem to have turned it into a "team sport". Hey, I like my Blue Jays, Maple Leafs and Toronto Wolf Pack. But that is for fun, not on something serious. I laugh when I look up 'statements " and "beliefs" for various denominations. Just the baptismal alone staggers the imagination. To be baptized alone in the one, you take a vow saying you agree with a 25 point statement of doctrine ! And included in it? Is even acknowledging their modern day prophet , and version of prophecy ! How, can any one agree with all the doctrines of a church? If one doers, they are obviously putting their faith in that organization. For even the Apostles admitted to being unsure of some stuff and expressed doubts. Two of my favourite Christian authors are CS Lewis and NT Wright. But even them, I cannot say are 100% right on every thing. And they were the first to admit that about them selves. That is why I like the quote, "In Essentials Unity, In Non-Essentials Liberty, In All Things Charity". And that is what I use when I define a "cult", or "cultist". If one insists that in all things, their particular doctrines or favourite "team", is "essential"? Then who are they following, a denomination / school of Philosophy or Christ? Did John the Baptist , ask Jesus 25 questions before he baptized him? Did he baptize him into the membership of a church, sect or denomination? Nope. Its one reason, I like Baptists so much. Even though I disagree with them a lot. They do not mix up the "essentials " with all the other stuff, as cults do. My Dad was a fill in at his church. He and the Pastor there disagreed on a lot of subjects, mostly on prophecy. Yet they were the closest of friends. Both had farms, and they would help each other out. I used to laugh so hard. Be up at the farm, and they would spend hours reading their Bibles and arguing their perspective views on prophecy. Yet still be of one accord. They understood, about what is essential and what is not. I would laugh, because I would drive the 3 hours back home, come on here? And the same stuff they argued about? Was all of a sudden , essential ! So that is what I call a cult or cultist. One who drinks all the kool aid any one church or group puts out . Its why I attend the Church I do. They accept all, and have an open communion.
5/2/2017 12:08:08 PM	"Who Are These People"?
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 65, joined Feb. 2008 online now!	If we do not accept all of tge teachings of our Holy Mother the Catholic Church, we in effect accept none of them, because we show we have a lack of faith in the Church Jesus founded. Outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation.
5/2/2017 12:33:32 PM	"Who Are These People"?
followjesusonly Kingman, AZ 74, joined May. 2012 online now!	* The ROBOT speaks: "If we do not accept all of tge teachings of our Holy Mother the Catholic Church, we in effect accept none of them, because we show we have a lack of faith in the Church Jesus founded. Outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation." ============================================================================== Jesus didn't found your sect. Stop lying, to yourself and everyone else. You're hurting yourself and your sect. No one listens to anything you have to say. The [Catholics] follow the principle that when one lies, one should lie big, and stick to it. They keep up their lies, even at the risk of looking ridiculous. -Joseph Goebbels
5/2/2017 12:46:58 PM	"Who Are These People"?
followjesusonly Kingman, AZ 74, joined May. 2012 online now!	This is a good read. It describes the Catholic church and the Jehovah's Witness organizations perfectly. Re: the religions of authority 155:5.8 Until the human race progresses to the level of a higher and more general recognition of the realities of spiritual experience, large numbers of men and women will continue to show a personal preference for those religions of authority which require only intellectual assent, in contrast to the religion of the spirit, which entails active participation of mind and soul in the faith adventure of grappling with the rigorous realities of progressive human experience. 155:5.9 The acceptance of the traditional religions of authority presents the easy way out for man’s urge to seek satisfaction for the longings of his spiritual nature. The settled, crystallized, and established religions of authority afford a ready refuge to which the distracted and distraught soul of man may flee when harassed by fear and tormented by uncertainty. Such a religion requires of its devotees, as the price to be paid for its satisfactions and assurances, only a passive and purely intellectual assent. 155:5.10 And for a long time there will live on earth those timid, fearful, and hesitant individuals who will prefer thus to secure their religious consolations, even though, in so casting their lot with the religions of authority, they compromise the sovereignty of personality, debase the dignity of self-respect, and utterly surrender the right to participate in that most thrilling and inspiring of all possible human experiences: the personal quest for truth, the exhilaration of facing the perils of intellectual discovery, the determination to explore the realities of personal religious experience, the supreme satisfaction of experiencing the personal triumph of the actual realization of the victory of spiritual faith over intellectual doubt as it is honestly won in the supreme adventure of all human existence—man seeking God, for himself and as himself, and finding him. Never can the religions of authority come to unification. Human unity and mortal brotherhood can be achieved only by and through the superendowment of the religion of the spirit. Racial minds may differ, but all mankind is indwelt by the same divine and eternal spirit. The hope of human brotherhood can only be realized when, and as, the divergent mind religions of authority become impregnated with, and overshadowed by, the unifying and ennobling religion of the spirit—the religion of personal spiritual experience. 155:6.9 The religions of authority can only divide men and set them in conscientious array against each other; the religion of the spirit will progressively draw men together and cause them to become understandingly sympathetic with one another. The religions of authority require of men uniformity in belief, but this is impossible of realization in the present state of the world. The religion of the spirit requires only unity of experience—uniformity of destiny—making full allowance for diversity of belief. The religion of the spirit requires only uniformity of insight, not uniformity of viewpoint and outlook. The religion of the spirit does not demand uniformity of intellectual views, only unity of spirit feeling. The religions of authority crystallize into lifeless creeds; the religion of the spirit grows into the increasing joy and liberty of ennobling deeds of loving service and merciful ministration. -The Urantia Book
5/29/2017 3:16:20 PM	"Who Are These People"?
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/why-did-god-forbid-one-tree-in-eden http://blog.adw.org/2014/04/for-worldly-sorrow-brings-death-a-meditation-on-the-sad-end-of-judas-and-what-might-have-been/ http://blog.adw.org/2014/04/for-worldly-sorrow-brings-death-a-meditation-on-the-sad-end-of-judas-and-what-might-have-been/ This article shows what it means to be lost (perish), what worldly sorrow is vs godly sorrow and the life of Judas Iscariot. Judas did NOT feel separation from God according to Scripture. He felt GUILTY & had feelings of regret & remorse for betraying an innocent man & returned the money he had paid to betray Christ, the price one would pay for a slave. But he didn't change his mind, which is true repentance. Mt 27:3-5 When Judas, who had betrayed Him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was filled with remorse & returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests & elders. “I have sinned by betraying innocent blood,” he said. “What is that to us?” they replied. “You bear the responsibility. So Judas threw the silver into the temple & left. Then he went away & hanged himself. Mk 14:21 The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born.” As a result of his guilt & remorseful feelings--that wouldn't go away--he went & hanged himself. He didn't turn to Jewish animal sacrifice to appease the guilt of his sins which Jewish people did. He didn't turn to Christ as Peter did, who repented & was used mightily by the Lord to further His kingdom & the early church. He didn't even turn to the heavenly Father, that Jesus taught the disciples to pray to in His name. He turned to himself & there was no answer nor relief. He also was a thief & frequently stealing out of the money bag & then to cover up--acted self-righteously in condemning a woman for using costly ointment--on Jesus' body. The guilt of being a thief must have also entered into his remorse, as he THREW the 30 pieces of silver into the temple & left, evidently disgusted-- with the covetousness associated with the love of money--that had made a RUIN of his life. In Mt 27 the word used for 'repent' for Judas is not the normal Greek word used for repentance, metanoia. Here it has the same prefix meta (afterwards) but the main root is not the word for mind but 'melo' the word for care or concern. So the normal word for repent means to 'think afterwards' while this term regret or remorse means to 'care or be concerned afterwards.' The first one brings GODLY sorrow leading to salvation, while the second brings worldly sorrow only after the fact & doesn't lead to salvation. He didn't go to the very One who could forgive sins. He had watched many people repent & be forgiven of their sins by the Lord Jesus Christ. He had preached this as an apostle sent out. Judas knew THE WAY to forgiveness & salvation yet he chose not to truly repent & turn to Christ to be saved. His guilt due to worldly sorrow did not lead to true repentance which in turn opened the door to faith & salvation. The other thing important in our confession in order to be saved is that Judas said 'he betrayed an innocent MAN, innocent blood!' Judas did not believe Jesus was the Lord & Savior of the world. Judas did not believe that Jesus was God manifest in the flesh, THE only begotten Son of God. Judas did not believe Jesus to be the true Messiah. His dashed hope was in a man he had hoped would deliver Israel from Roman oppression. Guilt & a dashed hope in just a man led to his committing suicide. It did not lead to salvation. Another factor to keep in mind is that Judas was given the same title as the antichrist of 2 Thess 2, the 'son of perdition [DESTRUCTION]' & the 'man of sin' & the 'beast' that leads the world astray to worhip him as God in Revelation. The word perdition is none other than the SAME Greek word used for 'DESTROY' in Mt 10:28 & none other than the SAME word used in Jn 3:16 & other places: PERISH. It is also translated as 'LOST' in other passages. Here is what the Hebrew & Greek scholar, W.E. Vines has to say in His Expository Dictionary of Old & NT Words concerning this Greek word, 'apollumi.' Destroy, Destroyer, Destruction, Destructive Verb,G622, apollumi, apo away & ollumi ruin] a strengthened form of ollumi, signifies to destroy utterly;" in Middle Voice, "to perish." THE IDEA IS NOT EXTINCTION BUT RUIN--LOSS--NOT OF BEING BUT OF WELL-BEING. This is CLEAR FROM IT USE, as, e.g., of the marring of wine skins, Luke 5:37; of lost sheep, i.e., lost to the shepherd, metaphorical of spiritual destitution, Lk 15:4,6, etc.; the lost son, Lk 15:24; of the perishing of food, Jn 6:27; of gold, 1 Pet 1:7. So of persons, Mt 2:13, "destroy;" Mt 8:25, "perish;" Mt 22:7 & 27:20; of the loss of well-being in the case of the unsaved hereafter, Mt 10:28; Lk 13:3,5; Jn 3:16 (Jn 3:15 in some mss.); Jn 10:28; Jn 17:12; Rom 2:12; 1 Cor 15:18; 2 Cor 2:15, "are perishing;" 2 Cor 4:3; 2 Thess 2:10; James 4:12; 2 Pet 3:9. See DIE, LOSE, MARRED, PERISH. Mt 27:20 But the chief priests and elders persuaded the multitude that they should ask Barabbas & DESTROY Jesus. I Cor 8:7,8 Be careful, however, that your freedom does not become a STUMBLING BLOCK to the weak. So this weak brother, for whom Christ died, is DESTROYED by your knowledge. Rom 14:13-15 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any STUMBLING BLOCK or obstacle in the way of a brother or sister...U are no longer ACTING IN LOVE. Do not by your eating DESTROY SOMEONE FOR WHOM CHRIST DIED...Do not DESTROY the work of God for the sake of food. Again one of many verses demonstrating that translating destroy as annihilation is NOT biblical or Scriptural. Jesus was not annihilated. Neither are weak brothers & sisters in Christ. Their faith is wounded & being ruined. But physical death of Christ did render his mortal, physical body useless for a period of 3 days. Again just like every other person whose physical mortal body is 'destroyed,' it is obviously NOT annihilated because that mortal body returned to dust will be resurrected. It won't be annihilated but CHANGED into an immortal spiritual body, one that continues unending & living in the spiritual realm along with the unending soul/spirit that after physical death was existing conscious & then was returned from Hades back into the newly resurrected body of that person. http://studybible.info/vines/ Here is a website near the bottom that gives both the preface & the forward to it that you will find very intersting. Enjoy & enjoy using this wonderful Bible study tool for great understanding of the original languages & usages in the translated English Scriptures. I have already shown that the term destroy & destruction used of the beast, the final antichrist, does NOT MEAN annihilate at all but simply means 'to bring to ruin' to be 'lost' & to bring to a point of their former power & influence 'being useless.' He & the false prophet, two men & the devil are not annihlated in the Lake of fire! Now we know what happened to Judas Iscariot as well, also being a 'son of destruction' a son of perdition. [Edited 5/29/2017 3:19:07 PM ]
5/29/2017 3:20:11 PM	"Who Are These People"?
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	(continued) Jesus Himself said it would have been better if he had never been born. Judas FULFILLED prophetic Scripture as to being lost, one who perished one who was destroyed--BUT NOT ANNIHILATED. In the two Psalms (Acts 1:15-26) that Peter quotes, he directly attributes them to Judas Iscariot by the Holy Spirit. Here is the prophetic context of both, not only of Judas but the whole context is the prophetic things that would happen to the Messiah in His sufferings before & during His crucifixion. Many are familiar to you from the NT. Ps 69:19-28 You know my reproach & my shame & my dishonor; my adversaries [enemies, foes] are all known to you. Reproaches have broken my heart, so that I am in despair. I looked for pity, but there was none & for comforters, but I found none. They also gave me gall for my food & for my thirst they gave me sour wine [vinegar] to drink. 22 Let their table before them become a snare & a retribution & a trap & a stumbling block. Let their eyes be darkened, so that they cannot see & make their loins tremble continually. 24Pour out your indignation upon them & let your burning anger overtake them. 25May their camp be a desolation; let no one dwell in their tents. For they persecute him whom you have struck down & they recount the pain of those you have wounded. Add to them punishment upon punishment; may they have no acquittal from you. [Hebrew may they not come into your righteousness] Let them be blotted out of the book of life [the living]; let them not be enrolled [listed, written] among the righteous. Ps 109:1-8 Be not silent, O God of my praise! For wicked & deceitful mouths are opened against me, speaking against me with lying tongues. They encircle me with words of hate, & attack me without cause. In return for my love they accuse me but I give myself to prayer. They reward me evil for good, & hatred for my love. 6Appoint a wicked man against him; let an accuser stand at his right hand. When he is tried, let him come forth guilty; let his prayer be counted as sin! 8May his days be few; may another take his office! As one can see Judas was one of the enemies of the Lord, one of the wicked & deceitful mouths against Him. He is prophetically shown to be one of those whose dwelling place or camp would be one of desolation. Punishment would be added upon punishment, no acquittal is given because they will not enter into God's righteousness. Here again is the similar prophetic word to all those cast into the Gehenna of fire, the Lake of fire, under the POWER of the Second Death--their names are blotted out of the Book of Life--their names are not found there; their names are not found written & listed among the righteous. Judas Iscariot is shown to be one who does not have eternal life. He is not listed among those who are living or alive, in the Book of Life. He hasn't seen life nor experienced the eternal life of God that is given as a free gift to those who truly repent, with a change of mind not just feelings of remorse & entrust themselves to a faithful Creator & Savior & Lord. He will be resurrected with an immortal body like all others, both saved & unsaved & face the great white throne judgment. He will go to destruction, to ruin, like the beast & the false prophet who are not annihilated. Judas will not be annihilated either. Their resurrectred bodies CAN'T BE ANNIHILATED, they are immortal now.
5/30/2017 12:15:34 AM	"Who Are These People"?
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 65, joined Feb. 2008 online now!	Any person, once a Catholic, who leaves the Church for another religion, commits the same sin as Judas Iscariot.
5/30/2017 11:43:50 AM	"Who Are These People"?
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	Rich, I'm sure you enjoyed some of the conversations your dad had with his friend on prophecy. I had a friend like that for a number of years & we would discuss prophecy a lot, go have a meal at various restaurants & often get others in the conversation. Over time we had the privilege of leading a chinese man to the Lord, whom his wife had been praying for, for a long time. I miss those times talking about the Scripures after the restaurant closed. My friend has now passed out of this world & is in the presence of the Lord now in Paradise. He used to see many things in cloud formations & I used to get a kick out of looking at clouds with him & seeing various things in them. God uses clouds & mentions them throughout the Bible. Lud gives a good illustration of the Roman Catholic church. If you don't believe in one dogma you are guilty of not believing in them all; it is the same thing. That is a great parallel to being under the law of God, which their doctrine of salvation is like. If you break one command before God, you are guilty of breaking all of them. Such is a work-based salvation. All other people are judged to be unsaved outside the Catholic church. So says Lud, although the hierarchy of Catholic leadership would differ with that. There is old school Catholicism & new school Catholicism. Catholicism isn't as nice & tidy as Lud would make us think. No one who will boast before the Lord. All mouths will be shut & recognize there is salvation in no one else; for their is no other name under heaven given among men by which we MUST be saved. James 2:8-11 If you really keep the royal law stated in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. 9But if you show FAVORITISM, YOU SIN & are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10Whoever keeps the whole Law but stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it...you have become a lawbreaker. If you break one Catholic 'law' you have become a Catholic breaker. If you leave the Catholic church for another religion, you are destined for the Gehenna of fire. You cannot find salvation in any other except through the Catholic church. Now Lud is defining all other followers of Christ in Christiandom, outside of the Roman Catholic church as having no salvation & of a 'different' religion. For one who professes to follow Christ, he is not believing what Jesus & Scripture teach. Rom 3:19,20 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced & the whole world held accountable to God. For no one will be justified in His sight by the works of the law, because the knowledge of sin comes through the law. Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. Lk 9:49,50 “Master,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in Your name & we tried to stop him, because he does not accompany us.” “Do not stop him, Jesus replied, “for whoever is not against you is for you.” Mk 9:38-41 John said to Him, “Teacher, we saw someone else driving out demons in Your name & we tried to stop him, because he does not accompany us.” But Jesus replied, “Do not stop him. No one who performs a miracle in My name can turn around & speak evil of Me. For whoever is not against us is for us. Indeed, if anyone gives you even a cup of water because you bear the name of Christ, truly I tell you, he will never lose his reward. Mk 5:18-20 As He was getting into the boat, the man who had been possessed by the demons begged to go with Him. But Jesus would NOT allow him. “GO HOME TO YOUR OWN PEOPLE, He said, “& tell them how much the Lord has done for you & what mercy He has shown you.” So the man went away and began to proclaim THROUGHOUT THE DECAPOLIS how much Jesus had done for him. And everyone was amazed. 2 Chron 13:12 "Now behold, God is with us AT OUR HEAD & His priests with the signal trumpets to sound the alarm against you. O sons of Israel, do not fight AGAINST the LORD God of your fathers, for you will not succeed." Eph 5:22-24 Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23For the husband is head of the wife, just as CHRIST IS THE HEAD OF THE CHURCH, His body, of which He is the Savior. 24Now as THE CHURCH SUBMITS TO CHRIST, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. 3 John 1:9-11 I have written to the church about this, but Diotrephes, who loves to be first, will not accept our instruction. So if I come, I will call attention to his MALICIOUS SLANDER AGAINST US. And unsatisfied with that, he refuses to welcome the brothers & forbids those who want to do so, even putting them out of the church. Beloved, do not imitate what is evil, but what is good. The one who does good is of God; the one who does evil has not seen God. The Catholic church now presumes to hold the whole world accountable to itself & not to God. Those outside the circle of Christ & the apostles were recognized as being a part of the church of Christ & recognized as such. The have usurped the headship of Christ over his church & replaced Him with a man. Protestants do the same when they place a pastor or reverend OVER THE CHURCH as the head. Christ instructed his apostles to have a PLURALITY of leadership, not one at the head. Both Protestants and Catholics are GUILTY of the error of the Nicolaitans. ('power or authority over the laity.') Lk 11:27,28 As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, “Blessed is the mother who gave you birth & nursed you.” He replied, “Blessed RATHER are those who hear the word of God & obey it.” What Lud forgets is the order of the Great Commission. It was to start first in Jerusalem & then spread to all the nations. The church that Jesus established AT THE BEGINNING was IN JERSUALEM FOR ALMOST 20 YEARS! There was no other church being built. It was only after the first council IN JERUSALEM that the Gentiles were recognized as being saved by grace through faith just like the Jewish Christians (Acts 15). The first established Jew & Gentile church was at Antioch not Rome! Thus began the establishment of THE CHURCH AT...(name location); only one church, but in many locations; not just Rome. Revelation 1:9-11 I, John, your brother & companion in the suffering & kingdom & patient endurance that are ours in Jesus, was on the island of Patmos because of the word of God & the testimony of Jesus. On the Lord’s Day I was in the Spirit & I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet, which said: “Write on a scroll what you see & send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea.” Not one word is mentioned about THE CHURCH AT ROME. If Rome was the only church that Jesus established, why would it be left out of Scripture, yet seven other churches are mentioned with one of the most treasured Scripture unfolding the prophecy of what will come upon the earth? This is now at the END of the 1st century, too! The Apostles did NOT recognize the church at Rome as the only church Jesus Christ founded. THAT is true historical record & the record of Scripture; no supreme Roman Catholic church CONTROLLING things. No sir! Jesus Christ is building his worldwide one church & it isn't the Roman Catholic church, which is only one of many local churches that comprise the whole body of believers.
5/30/2017 11:45:29 AM	"Who Are These People"?
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	(conclusion) But hey, such is the actual true historical record, the one true church of God in the Spirit. Pope John II told Billy Graham, "We are brothers!" Such is the true record of the Catholic hierarchy, not what Lud says; as the apostles in Jerusalem offered Paul & Barnabas the 'right hand of fellowship.' Anyone studying the true historical record of the church, especially as found in the Scriptures will indeed depart from the Roman Catholic church and embrace the true catholic church, the one that the head of the church, Jesus Christ is continuing to build. I Cor 12:13-31 For by ONE SPIRIT WE WERE ALL BAPTIZED INTO ONE BODY—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and ALL were made to drink of one Spirit. 14For the body does not consist of one member but of many. 15If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body. 16And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body. 17If the whole body were an eye, where would be the sense of hearing? If the whole body were an ear, where would be the sense of smell? 18But as it is, God arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose. 19If all were a single member, where would the body be? 20As it is, there are many parts,e yet one body. 21The eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you,” nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” 22On the contrary, the parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23and on those parts of the body that we think less honorable we bestow the greater honor, and our unpresentable parts are treated with greater modesty, 24which our more presentable parts do not require. But God has so composed the body, giving greater honor to the part that lacked it, 25that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. 26If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together. 27Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. 28And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31But earnestly desire the higher gifts. And I will show you a still more excellent way. [love]
5/30/2017 12:02:54 PM	"Who Are These People"?
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 65, joined Feb. 2008 online now!	Pray for truth and pray for light. "To be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant." --Cardinal John Henry Newman (a convert from Protestantism)
5/30/2017 4:28:51 PM	"Who Are These People"?
followjesusonly Kingman, AZ 74, joined May. 2012 online now!	* Ludlow says: "Pray for truth and pray for light." Translation: Sit on your butt and do nothing. Expect God to solve your problems while you just "pray" about them. That's what Satan wants. If you're sitting on your butt doing nothing, you're not solving your problems. That's why Ludlow says, "Pray for peace." Pray to Mary, perhaps. Satan loves that stuff. Ludlow quoting Cardinal John Henry Newman: "To be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant." Assertions "R" Us: The Catholic church. Ludlow: --Cardinal John Henry Newman (a convert from Protestantism) Cardinal John Henry Newman, a probable homosexual with his girlfriend Ambrose St. John. "It's not unreasonable to think he might have been homosexual," says the Rev. James Martin, a Jesuit priest and author of My Life with the Saints. "His letters and his comments on the death of one of his close friends are quite provocative."
6/14/2017 5:49:21 PM	"Who Are These People"?
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	Acts 1:21,22 Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus was living among us, beginning from John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become A WITNESS WITH US OF HIS RESURRECTION.” Acts 2:29-33,37,38 “Fellow Israelites, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay. God has raised this Jesus to life & WE ARE ALL WITNESSES OF IT. Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear." “Brothers, what shall we do?” Peter replied, “Repent & be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Acts 3:13-16,18-24 The God of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus. You handed him over to be killed & you disowned him before Pilate, though he had decided to let him go. You disowned the Holy & Righteous One and asked that a murderer be released to you. You killed the author of life, but God raised Him from the dead. WE ARE WITNESSES OF THIS. By faith in the name of Jesus, this man whom you see & know was made strong. It is Jesus’ name & the faith that comes through Him that has completely healed him, as you can all see. this is how God fulfilled what he had foretold through all the prophets, saying that his Messiah would suffer. Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord & that he may send the Messiah, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus. Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets. For Moses said, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you. Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from their people.’“Indeed, beginning with Samuel, all the prophets who have spoken have foretold these days. Acts 4:2 They were greatly disturbed because the apostles were teaching the people, proclaiming in Jesus THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD.
6/17/2017 6:31:05 AM	"Who Are These People"?
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	The early church and the authority of Scripture http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/sola-scriptura-earlychurch.html
6/18/2017 9:49:49 PM	"Who Are These People"?
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 65, joined Feb. 2008 online now!	Jesus is truly and literally riden from the dead.
6/18/2017 9:54:57 PM	"Who Are These People"?
followjesusonly Kingman, AZ 74, joined May. 2012 online now!	* Ludlow says: Jesus is truly and literally riden from the dead. ridden has two "d"s, Lud.
6/18/2017 11:05:47 PM	"Who Are These People"?
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 65, joined Feb. 2008 online now!	That should be, risen from the dead.
7/15/2017 1:02:14 PM	"Who Are These People"?
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	bump
8/29/2017 1:47:15 PM	"Who Are These People"?
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	We don't work FOR our salvation, we work OUT our salvation as God's workmanship. It is His work not ours; we are a vessel, simply hearing His Voice & doing the work He has called each one of us to accomplish, that no other person is called to do. If we die daily, bearing our cross daily, who is living in us? Christ! It can't be earned; it isn't achieved by works but by God's mercy & grace by means of our living faith. We GROW UP INTO our salvation, going from babies in the faith to a mature person, being conformed to Christ's image, going daily from one degree of glory to another--Christ IN U, the hope of glory! Salvation is a free gift, given to us by God; it can't be earned. If it is by works, then it is no longer grace. Salvation is NOT OF OURSELVES! How many times does Scripture have to repeat these truths before a person will believe it? Works can only be good if God is doing them, because only God is good. Unless a person is God's workmanship, all works are evil, done in the flesh. If we die, we are not doing the works, God is in and through us. It is His grace, His power, His Word, His love that our living faith is being expressed in & through. And I read through the book of James again. What a wonderful letter it is. Many things can be observed as I read through it once again. The first thing observed: the writer of this letter identifies who he is: James, a servant of God & of the Lord Jesus Christ... He is a servant of BOTH God the Father (2:9; & also 1:17,27) AND the LORD Jesus Christ. Second, I observe WHO the letter is being written to: the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting. Third, I observe this time in reading through the book of James that the word PERFECT (perfected, perfection) stands out & is mentioned repeatedly: 6X in 5 chapters. "The TRYING (testing with the goal of approval--by means of various temptations) of your faith worketh patience. 4But let patience have her PERFECT WORK, SO that ye may be PERFECT & entire, wanting nothing." "Every good gift & every PERFECT GIFT is from above..." "But whoso looketh into the PERFECT LAW OF LIBERTY & CONTINUES..." Seest thou how faith wrought with his works & by works was faith made PERFECT?" "If any man offend not in word, the same is a PERFECT MAN & able also to bridle THE WHOLE BODY." Fourth, in reading again the epistle of James, I notice how many times the word TEMPT (tempting, temptation(s), tempted, etc.) is repeated: 7X! Fifth, a theme of 'patient endurance' flavors all 5 chapters of the book of James. So what James is writing about is written specifically for those who are Jewish, with direct lineage to one of the 12 tribes of Israel. He is writing to Jewish Christians, familiar with the TeNaKh, the OT of the Scriptures & the Law of Moses (Torah) & the Prophets & the Psalms or Writings. He will speak to them as a Jew & as those familiar with the Jewish Scriptures. He is not writing to Gentiles Christians. He is writing to those belonging to one of the 12 tribes in the Diaspora (Greek word for scattered...). So one asks, does Scripture talk about a Diaspora & when did this happen? The Scripture tells us when this scattering occurred in the early church, which was Jewish. Acts 8:1,2 And Saul was consenting to his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against THE CHURCH WAS WAS IN JERUSALEM & they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea & Samaria, EXCEPT the apostles. I again notice that in this scattering, the apostles were not driven out of Jerusalem but stayed there. James was one of the apostles, so we can assume he wrote this letter from Jerusalem & that this letter was written EARLY in the history of the church of Jesus Christ that He founded & that He is building. As we look at the history of this in Acts, recognize that according to Jesus Christ, the one church that Jesus is building, STARTED IN JERUSALEM not Rome. It is not the Roman Catholic church that Jesus was building. People forget the timetable & direction of the building of His church on earth. Jesus TOLD US how it would happen! We so easily FORGET in the confusion of man-made traditions & teachings. What Jesus spoke is the TRUTH. Anything apart from this is man-made teachings. Acts 1:1-8 In my former book, Theophilus, I wrote about all that Jesus BEGAN to do & to teach 2until the day He was taken up to heaven, after GIVING INSTRUCTIONS through the Holy Spirit TO THE APOSTLES He had chosen. 3After His suffering, He presented Himself to them & gave many convincing proofs that He was ALIVE. He appeared to them over a period of 40 days & spoke about the KINGDOM OF GOD. 4On one occasion, while He was eating with them, He gave THEM IS COMMAND: “Do NOT leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which U have heard Me speak about. 5For John baptized with water, but in a few days U will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.” 6Then they gathered around Him & asked Him, “Lord, are U AT THIS TIME going to restore THE KINGDOM TO ISRAEL?” 7He said to them: “It is not for U to know THE TIMES OR DATES the Father has set by His own authority. 8But U will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on U & U will be My witnesses in JERUSALEM--& in ALL JUDEA--& SAMARIA & to the ends of the earth.” They were to be His witnesses first in Jerusalem. The church had to be established first in Jerusalem and matured before they were to be sent out further. And they did. When it came time by the Father's authority & timetable, a persecution arose & a scattering of the saints in the church established in Jerusalem occurred--to the outer regions of Judea & even as far as Samaria & beyond. Everywhere the saints from the church established in Jerusalem went in this scattering--they preached the gospel. Notice that all Judea & Samaria are Jewish people! They preached the gospel to Jewish descendants, not Gentiles. This has not occurred yet, except in isolated circumstances. Many of these are what are called Hellenistic Jews (Hellenistic referring to the Greek empire that ruled over the Jewish nation before the Roman empire & thus most spoke & understood & wrote in Greek. But--the apostles REMAINED IN JERUSALEM. They didn't scatter or leave Jerusalem, including Peter. Peter did not go to Rome. No church congregation was established in Rome yet. There was only one local church & that church was in Jerusalem & it was the saints in this church that were scattered. The apostles were not scattered, preaching the gospel; they REMAINED in Jerusalem, FOLLOWING THE LORD'S COMMAND! It was only after this that the apostles went out to verify & confirm what the scattered Jewish Christians had done in preaching the gospel & converting Jewish descendants & bringing people into the faith once for all delivered to the saints. More on this later.
8/29/2017 3:30:12 PM	"Who Are These People"?
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 65, joined Feb. 2008 online now!	Peter said he was in Babylon. Among Christians "Babylon" was a code word for Rome, a place of debauchery just like ancient Babylon. Also, there are historical sources outside the Bible that say Peter went to Antioch, where he was that city's first bishop, then on to Rome, where he was that city's first bishop.
8/30/2017 8:13:54 AM	"Who Are These People"?
isna_la_wica Brantford, ON 63, joined Mar. 2012	Excellent post Doc. I like how you show that the introduction, who a letter is being written to etc. is so important. It is something Lloyd Jones stresses in the series of books based on his sermons regarding Romans stresses. Its something I admit I tended to gloss over in the past. Been a while since I read James. Good idea, I think I shall re read it tonight.
8/30/2017 12:49:58 PM	"Who Are These People"?
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 65, joined Feb. 2008 online now!	It is good that you should read James. James emphasizes the importance of good works. James refutes those who say, "Oh, I'm saved because I believe, now I don't have to do anything". No wonder Martin Luther called James "an epistle of straw" and tried to kick it out of the Bible.
8/30/2017 4:07:18 PM	"Who Are These People"?
isna_la_wica Brantford, ON 63, joined Mar. 2012	Quote from ludlowlowell: It is good that you should read James. James emphasizes the importance of good works. James refutes those who say, "Oh, I'm saved because I believe, now I don't have to do anything". No wonder Martin Luther called James "an epistle of straw" and tried to kick it out of the Bible. You should read James .
8/30/2017 5:23:32 PM	"Who Are These People"?
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 65, joined Feb. 2008 online now!	Quote from isna_la_wica: You should read James . I have, many times.
8/31/2017 12:42:53 AM	"Who Are These People"?
looptex1 Chatsworth, GA 49, joined Jun. 2008	Quote from isna_la_wica: You should read James . He can't understand it without the catholics telling him what they privately interpret it to meam. He can read it 100 times, and he still would know anymore than a Muslim does about it.
8/31/2017 7:30:51 AM	"Who Are These People"?
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 65, joined Feb. 2008 online now!	It's obvious what James means. James, unlike much of the Bible, needs no interpretation. James says good works are necessary for salvation, faith by itself is not enough, people should confess their sins to priests, and priests are required to anoint sick people, an anointment which, if the recipient is sorry for his sins, will result in the person's sins to be forgiven. Looptex and others, why do you suppose Martin Luther did his best to have James thrown out of the Bible?
8/31/2017 2:41:27 PM	"Who Are These People"?
followjesusonly Kingman, AZ 74, joined May. 2012 online now!	Ludlow says: It's obvious what James means. James, unlike much of the Bible, needs no interpretation. James says good works are necessary for salvation, faith by itself is not enough, people should confess their sins to priests, and priests are required to anoint sick people, an anointment which, if the recipient is sorry for his sins, will result in the person's sins to be forgiven. You are a very sick Catholic man, Lud. "I will forever be dependent on the [Catholic] Church my mother. I go along in obedience. The Catholic Church speaks for God. The [Catholic] Church ordered heretics tortured and burned at the stake because the heretics opposed the [Catholic] Church's message of love and peace. Executing someone per God's commandment is not murder. Outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation. Only one mortal sin is enough to send a soul to Hell forever. If we want to be saved we must confess our sins to a validly ordained Catholic priest. Infant Baptism, Heaven, Hell, Purgatory, devotion to Mary, and prayers to the saints are all in the Bible. The gospel is the whole package of Jesus' teaching, including Holy Eucharist, the founding of the Church, the divinity of Christ, devotion to the Blessed Mother, Heaven, Hell, Purgatory, and indulgences. Jesus called His diciples to believe in the Catholic Church. It's the truth. I've studied this stuff for years. Devotion to Mary is necessary for salvation. Devotion to Mary is mandatory. Mary is queen of Heaven and sovereign mistress of the angels for one reason and one reason only: God appointed her to that office. I can prove that Mary is the Queen of Heaven. The Catholic Church says so, and the Church is infallible about things like this. The Bible came from the Church. The Church came from Jesus. Jesus came from Mary. Everything we have we got through Mary. Mary is queen of the universe. I recommend that people pray to Mary or one of the saints. Let the prayer life have some variety. "Hail holy queen, mother of mercy, our life, our sweetness, and our hope. To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we lift up our mourning and weeping in this valley of tears. Turn, then, o gracious mother, thine eyes of mercy toward us, and, after this our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, o loving, o sweet Virgin Mary." "Immaculate Mary, your praises we sing. You reign now in splendor with Jesus our King." To reject the Catholic Church is to reject God. The Catholic Church speaks for God. Yes, I speak for God." -Ludlow the Scrupulous
8/31/2017 3:05:37 PM	"Who Are These People"?
isna_la_wica Brantford, ON 63, joined Mar. 2012	Well, Lud will not be with us on this thread any longer. I blocked him.
8/31/2017 9:56:34 PM	"Who Are These People"?
followjesusonly Kingman, AZ 74, joined May. 2012 online now!	Thank you.
9/1/2017 8:22:30 PM	"Who Are These People"?
isna_la_wica Brantford, ON 63, joined Mar. 2012	Ill deal with his comment even though he is no longer here. Lets look at the passage closely : James 2 Faith and Works 14 What is the benefit, my fellow believers, if someone claims to have faith but has no [good] works [as evidence]? Can that [kind of] faith save him? [No, a mere claim of faith is not sufficient—genuine faith produces good works.] 15 If a brother or sister is without [adequate] clothing and lacks [enough] food for each day, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace [with my blessing], [keep] warm and feed yourselves,” but he does not give them the necessities for the body, what good does that do? 17 So too, faith, if it does not have works [to back it up], is by itself dead [inoperative and ineffective]. 18 But someone may say, “You [claim to] have faith and I have [good] works; show me your [alleged] faith without the works [if you can], and I will show you my faith by my works [that is, by what I do].” 19 You believe that [g]God is one; you do well [to believe that]. The demons also believe [that], and shudder and bristle [in awe-filled terror—they have seen His wrath]! 20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish [spiritually shallow] person, that faith without [good] works is useless? 21 Was our father Abraham not [shown to be] justified by works [of obedience which expressed his faith] when he offered Isaac his son on the altar [as a sacrifice to God]? 22 You see that [his] faith was working together with his works, and as a result of the works, his faith was completed [reaching its maturity when he expressed his faith through obedience]. 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and this [faith] was credited to him [by God] as righteousness and as conformity to His will,” and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man (believer) is justified by works and not by faith alone [that is, by acts of obedience a born-again believer reveals his faith]. 25 In the same way, was Rahab the prostitute not justified by works too, when she received the [Hebrew] [h]spies as guests and protected them, and sent them away [to escape] by a different route? 26 For just as the [human] body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works [of obedience] is also dead. Who is James talking to? Is he talking about Salvation? Verse 14 tells us :14 What is the benefit, my fellow believers, if someone claims to have faith but has no [good] works [as evidence -He is talking about those who say they are Christian. Not that they are Christians. - in fact, the Bible is clear that our works are not even from us! : "Ephesians 2:8-9Amplified Bible (AMP) 8 For it is by grace [God’s remarkable compassion and favor drawing you to Christ] that you have been saved [actually delivered from judgment and given eternal life] through faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [not through your own effort], but it is the [undeserved, gracious] gift of God; 9 not as a result of [your] works [nor your attempts to keep the Law], so that no one will [be able to] boast or take credit in any way [for his salvation]. I could go on, but am tired and have a long drive tomorrow. So Ill be back to this later.

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