Do As the Bereans Did Acts 17:11 and Practice Heb 13:1

5/20/2017 2:00:48 PM	Do As the Bereans Did Acts 17:11 and Practice Heb 13:1
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the Word with all readiness of mind & searched the Scriptures daily to see whether those things were so. Heb 13:1 Let brotherly love continue. http://www.interfaithfamily.com/life_cycle/death_and_mourning/Jewish_Views_on_the_Afterlife.shtml Jewish Views on the Afterlife When Jody Rosenblatt Feld was in high school, a gentile teacher told her Jews don't believe in heaven and hell. Only after a lot of study did she realize that wasn't so. "There is so much material on a Jewish afterlife, heaven and hell," says Rosenblatt Feld, a scholar and teacher. "You'd be amazed to how much there is." Many Jews who grow up in a liberal context were taught that Judaism emphasizes the here & now & that we don't have any notions about the afterlife. "There is some truth in that, but it is not the whole picture," says Conservative Rabbi Rona Shapiro. The website “Judaism 101” still finds it necessary to state that “contrary to popular belief, Judaism does believe in an afterlife”. https://youtu.be/YzFUXKk2B4I Rabbi Friedman on: The Soul And The Afterlife I have shared this before but once again a contemporary Jewish rabbi talks about the reality of an afterlife for the soul for over 40 minutes. Some on here like to make one quote out of context concerning this rabbi. But here you get the whole context. He says some fascinating things about Jewish belief in life after one dies physically. He states that 'when the body & soul separate & go their own ways', the body goes back to dust but that the soul 'GOES BACK TO BEING A SOUL--AMONG SOULS.' He says you can call it heaven or hell but the key point in Judaism, as he understands it, is that after one physically dies, 'you are describing the continued life of the living soul.' Is there life after death? He says, 'What dies is dead, what's alive still lives. Life only knows how to live. Life lives, bodies go back to the dust.' He quotes a poem that describes it well & ends with these lines: 'Life is true & life is real & death is not its goal. From dust you are & to dust you returneth, was never said of the soul.' I agree with much of what he says & so did Jesus. He should know. He experienced it. Paul did too. Some on here have a morbid sense of death & a death wish for everyone. But Jesus came to give 'LIFE & TO GIVE IT ABUNDANTLY!' (John 10:10) Jesus said to those who 'BELIEVE IN HIM,' even as THE SCRIPTURE SAYS, 'Out of our INNERMOST BEING--THE SOUL/SPIRT--FLOW RIVERS OF LIVING WATER! (John 7:37-39) Hallelujah, Lord Jesus. Thank you for the gift of everlasting, unending life from your Spirit, the Spirit of LIFE! We believers LIVE, because He lives, never more to die. (Rev 1:18) So He promises the same to us who have repented & believed in Him: we will NEVER DIE! (John 11:25,26) Martha believed it, I believe it. Rabbi Friedman believes it. Do you believe it? If not repent & believe in the gospel as Jesus preached. Believe it! There is another reality in the invisible spiritual realm, that is just as real as our physical one. Scripture is full of examples of this. To deny the existence of this invisible realm to us living people, is to deny the reality of God existing in this realm & His creating it. It would be to deny the realm where angels have been placed & live & operate. We get various glimpses into this realm but it is not one that we often 'see into.' It does not make it any less real! The soul & spirit are the immaterial; the body is the material. So when Jesus says you 'CANNOT KILL THE SOUL,' He means exactly that. When you die physically, your body goes back to dust but the soul can't be killed, it continues to exist after mortal death. It separates & continues to exist, in the spiritual realm, with other souls who have also departed. The soul is who you are, a living being, a person. It does indeed SEPARATE FROM the body. Our MORTAL bodies are just that: mortal not immortal, corruptible, subject to decay. They only live because the soul/spirit are still living inside it. Rabbi Friedman said it so well & so simply; you cannot mistake it. Jesus did too. The body dies; the soul/spirit do not but continue to consciously exist in the invisible spiritual realm. People like to quote Ezekiel 18 that the soul that sins will die. There is nothing more. The soul extinguishes or gets annihilated. THAT is a false interpretation. That passage is talking about the soul as a PERSON, a man or a father, etc. Read the whole context & the similar passage in Ezekiel 33. Soul in ch. 18 is synonymous with a person. Can a person die? of course! There is no contradiction here with what Jesus taught. Jesus is the truth; what he says is true. Believe it or believe a lie. Rabbi Friedman says the same thing. I would say the same thing. And I believe Scripture is FULL of examples of the same because 'sanctify them in the truth, Your Word is truth!' Jesus also preached about the bad news too & we should all be made aware of that teaching also. SADLY SOME HERE DO NOT BELIEVE WHAT JESUS SAID IS TRUE on both the good news & the bad news. That being said, one also must know about the bad news if we don't repent & put our trust in Jesus & what HE TAUGHT. The Bible is full of the warnings of the prophets & the apostles & Jesus. People persecuted & killed them for warning them. It is no different today. Here is a summary of my Connecting Dots Illustration so far on the reality of the existence of fire in the places where people go after they die & after they are resurrected. This simple, easily understandable act of CORRELATING SCRIPTURES throughout the Bible, is NOT child's play. It is part of Acts 17:11--'noble character of searching the (whole of) Scripture to see if these things are true.' It is also part of 'rightly dividing (cutting a straight furrow in accurately handling) the word of truth.' DOT #1: God is consuming fire. That is the nature of God as He reveals Himself in Scripture. Since God is eternal, since God does not change (Malachi 3:6) & since He is consuming fire, the fire continues forever. (Deut 4:24; Heb 12:29--no definite article—This is God’s nature & closely associated with His glory, His Jealousy [Ex 34:14], His purity & His judgments. This is NOT a fire to get warmed by (Deut 5:5,23-25; Heb 12:18-21) [additional verses: Is 29:6; 30:27,30; 33:14; Ex 24:17; Num 26:10; Ps 18:8; 50:3; Lam 2:3; 2 Sam 22:9; Deut 9:3; Joel 2:5; Judges 6:21, etc.] Lk 12:49,50 I am come to CAST FIRE upon the earth & how I wish it were kindled already! But [now] I have a baptism to undergo & how I am straightened (pressed tightly in a narrow confine) until it is accomplished! (Mt 3:12; Acts 18:5) Meet singles at DateHookup.dating, we're 100% free! Join now!
5/20/2017 2:03:32 PM	Do As the Bereans Did Acts 17:11 and Practice Heb 13:1
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	Gen 3:24 After He expelled the man, the LORD God PLACED CHERUBS at the east end of THE GARDEN OF EDEN, along with a FIERY WHIRLING SWORD, to prevent access to the tree of life. Lev 6:9,12,13; 9:24; 2 Chron 7:1 FIRE will be kept burning on the altar CONTINUALLY. https://www.gotquestions.org/altar-fire.html Deut 4:24 "For YHWH your ELOHIM is CONSUMING FIRE, a jealous God. (Heb 12:29) Deut 9:3 "It is YHWH your ELOHIM who is crossing over before U as CONSUMING FIRE. Lev_10:2 FIRE came out from YHWH & CONSUMED them & they died before YHWH. Ex 24:17 Now the appearance of the GLORY OF YHWH was like CONSUMING FIRE on the top of the mountain in the sight of the people of Israel. Num 11:3 (Deut 9:22) The name of that place was Taberah ['burning, consuming'], because YHWH's FIRE burned among them. Deut 35:14,15 Sinners in Zion are terrified; trembling has seized the godless. "Who among us can live with the CONSUMING FIRE? Who among us can live with CONTINUAL BURNING?" He who walks righteously & speaks with sincerity, he who rejects unjust gain & shakes his hands so that they hold no bribe; he who stops his ears from hearing about bloodshed & shuts his eyes from looking upon evil. (Ps 15) DOT #2 God's consuming fire can exist everywhere in the universe, in both the visible, physical (material) realm & in the invisible, spiritual (immaterial) realm. Scripture shows it exists in both, including the PREPARED spiritual places in the invisible realm called: Sheol aka Abaddon aka the Pit or bottomless pit aka the abyss aka Hades or the temporary hell aka the lower parts of or under the earth. It also includes, in the spiritual realm, in the new heavens & earth, the invisible spiritual place of Gehenna aka Tophet aka Lake of Fire aka the Second Death aka the permanent place of hell aka the fiery furnace. You will notice the difference between the former temporary place (God sends or places them there) vs the latter permanent dwelling (they DEPART FROM GOD & INTO IT &/or are CAST OR THROWN INTO IT). Ps 95:4,5 In His hand ARE the DEPTHS [deep places] OF THE EARTH & the mountain peaks belong to Him. The sea is His, for He MADE IT & His hands formed the dry land. Is 45:7 The One forming light & PREPARING DARKNESS. I Sam 2:8-12 "He raises the poor from the dust, He lifts the needy from the ash heap, to make them sit with nobles & inherit a seat of honor. He keeps the feet of His godly ones, but the wicked ones are SILENCED IN DARKNESS; for not by strength shall a man prevail. Ps 31:17 Let me not be put to shame, O LORD, for I call upon You; let the wicked be put to SHAME, let them BE SILENT IN SHEOL. Isaiah 30:15,27,28,33 “In repentance & rest is your salvation...but U would have NONE of it. ...The Name of YHWH comes...with burning anger & ...smoke...His tongue is CONSUMING FIRE...TOPHETH has LONG BEEN PREPARED; Its PIT of fire has been made deep & wide, the breath of YHWH, like a stream of BURNING BRIMSTONE, sets it ablaze. Gen 1:1 YLT In the beginning of God's PREPARING the heavens & the earth--& DARKNESS is on the face of THE DEEP John 1:3-5 Through Him ALL THINGS WERE MADE; without Him nothing was made that has been made. In Him was life & that life was the light of all mankind. The light shines in the darkness & THE DARKNESS HAS NOT OVERCOME IT. Job 38:1,4,12-14,15,17-20,33,36 "Who is this who gives DARK COUNSEL WITH WORDS, WITHOUT KNOWLEDGE? WHERE WERE U when I founded the earth--when the morning stars sang together--when all the angels of God shout [Complete Jewish Bible--CJB]? Declare, if U have understanding." 12 "Have you commanded the morning since thy days & caused THE DAYSPRING to KNOW HIS PLACE [prophetic--Jesus is the Dayspring, the 'He'--Lk 1:78]; that it (he) might take hold of the ends of the earth, so that the wicked might be shaken out of it? The seal changes LIKE CLAY & they shall stand like a garment. And from the wicked their LIGHT IS WITHHELD & their high arm is broken." [Rashi Commentary on TeNaKh {most influential Middle Age rabbi}: The seal… like clay: The cast of man’s countenance [changes] when he dies & at the resurrection of the dead they will live again & they will stand up in their clothing--see Job 19:23-27]. Notice the prophecy of God talking about dying & rising again & Jesus the Dayspring coming to judge the wicked & sentence them to darkness, their pride broken. The book of Job is FULL of God's revelation, concealed in poetic language in OT but revealed in the NT! 17 Were the GATES OF DEATH revealed to you? And the GATES OF THE SHADOW OF DEATH (CJB--death-like darkness), did you see? [LXX: And do the gates of death open to thee for fear & did the porters of hades quake when they saw thee?] Pulpit Commentary: "By 'the gates of death,' Sheol, the abode of the dead, seems to be intended (comp. Job 10:21, 22; Job 17:16; Ps 9:13). Has Job explored this region & penetrated its secrets? Or is it as unknown to him as to the rest of mankind? The 2nd hemistich - Or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death? - is a mere echo of the first, adding a new idea. Cambridge Bible For Schools & Colleges: 'the gates of death'--Death is personified; it is Sheol, the place of the dead (cf, Job 28:22. "This is a LOWER DEEP than the recesses of the sea; Job & Jonah, no doubt, went down there also." This is Jonah going to Sheol, his body not going through corruption & being raised on the third day; a perfect sign & prophecy of Christ! (Lk 11:29; Mt 12:39; Mk 8:12) God heard Jonah's cry from the depths of Sheol! Benson Commentary: "Hast thou looked into sheol, or hades, the intermediate state, the region of DEPARTED SPIRITS? And dost thou know how the [DEPARTED] SOULS of men are disposed of after death & what are their various states & conditions? Or, hast thou observed & marked the several ways leading to & introducing death? Death is a grand secret. 1st, We know not beforehand when & how & by what means we or others shall be brought to death [Mt 13:39-43; Lk 16:22,23]; by what road we must go the way whence (from where) we shall not return; what disease or disaster will be the door to let us into the house appointed for all living; man knows not his time. 2nd, We cannot describe what death is, how the knot is untied between body & soul, nor how the spirit of a man LEAVES the tenement of CLAY. "Let us make it sure that the gates of heaven shall be opened to us on the other side of death & then we need not fear the opening of the gates of death to receive us, though it is a way we are to go but once. We have no correspondence...with separated souls...We can neither hear from them, nor send to them.
5/20/2017 4:55:45 PM	Do As the Bereans Did Acts 17:11 and Practice Heb 13:1
isna_la_wica Brantford, ON 63, joined Mar. 2012	, have to read it in more depth later, but looks good so far Doc.
5/20/2017 8:15:52 PM	Do As the Bereans Did Acts 17:11 and Practice Heb 13:1
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	Thanks Rich. A lot of work went into these posts, searching out the Scriptures! [unless God infrequently allows us to see in the invisible, spiritual realm--see I Sam 28:3-25 Now Samuel HAD DIED & all Israel lamented him & BURIED HIM in Ramah..."Divine to me...& bring me up whomsoever I tell thee...Bring up Samuel. What do you see? I see divine beings COMING UP OUT OF THE EARTH," the woman answered. What is his FORM? She said, "An old man is coming up & he is wrapped in a mantle (cloak--I Sam 15:27)." And Saul knew that he was Samuel. Notice they are talking to a conscious, actual human being that has died, who is in the immaterial, invisible spiritual realm as a departed soul/spirit, who has a 'spiritual' form without his physical body, that looks like the old bodily form, only a spiritual one. Those who have died & their souls/spirits have departed from their bodies & have gone to sheol/hades/lower parts of the earth have NOT been annihilated or are actually sleeping. When their name is called, they respond, whether here or one of the prophets or apostles or Jesus calling them. He is like those under the altar in Revelation (6:8-11), who are conscious & talking to the Lord Jesus Christ--or like Moses & Elijah, shining brilliantly, being in glory & talking to Jesus in real time about his soon crucifixion. Here again is another aspect to consider. Samuel prophecied that Saul & his sons would be killed the following day & join him in Sheol, in that special compartment of Sheol called the 'garden of Eden' (also called 'paradise' or 'Abraham's bosom' or the 'abode of bliss,' etc.). This place was in the spiritual realm before Adam & Eve sinned -- but after their trespass, it was then cut off from them. It ended up being the place in the spiritual realm where the believing saints went to & confirms what Jesus taught (Lk 16) & the prophet Jeremiah taught & the prophet Ezekiel taught. (see passages following). This is where Abraham, Isaac & Jacob resided. Yet another aspect is revealed here also. Samuel had to be in fellowship with the living God, in order to be able to receive the prophetic word from God concerning Saul & his sons. This occurred WHILE SAMUEL was in that special compartment in Sheol. This occurred AFTER HIS PHYSICAL DEATH AND BURIAL OF HIS BODY. He had to be in communication with God & hear from Him (as he did while living on the earth) in order to be able to predict not only their physical death but exactly where they would come TO when they DEPARTED FROM THEIR BODIES. Again these witnesses of a conscious existence after physical death (Moses, Elijah, Abraham, Samuel, Pharaoh of Egypt, etc.) are just some among many others in Scripture that deny any false teachin such as annihilation or soul sleep or extinction. These people confirm there is a conscious afterlife in the invisible, spiritual realm, when they depart from their physical bodies. People continue conscious existence in a place in the invisible, spiritual realm, that Scripture calls by various names, as I am showing & that competent Bible scholars all the way back to the early church fathers have shown as well. These are not a few isolated verses but a consistent witness from Genesis to Revelation. In this passage the LXX has “a man coming up upright,” a reading possibly due to rabbinic teaching that Samuel came up erect to honour the king, instead of feet foremost as evoked spirits usually did. Rashi Commentary: "And she cried aloud, for she saw him ascending not in the usual manner...for when one conjures up (the dead) through necromancy, they ascend with their feet upward, while this one was ascending with his head upward, in honor of Saul." Ps 82:1,5-7 God presides in the great assembly; he renders judgment among the “the divine beings” ['elohim']. How long will U defend the unjust & show partiality to the WICKED--they know nothing, they understand nothing. They walk about IN DARKNESS; all the FOUNDATIONS OF THE EARTH are shaken. I said, ‘You are “gods” [elohim]; you are all sons of the Most High.’ 7 But U WILL DIE like [any] man; you will fall like every other RULER.” See also Lk 16:22-24 The poor man DIED & was carried by THE ANGELS to ABRAHAM'S SIDE (bosom). The rich man ALSO DIED & WAS BURIED. And IN HADES... Adam Clark's Commentary: --The doors of the shadow of death--tsalmaveth (Heb), the intermediate state, the openings into the place of separated spirits. Here two places are distinguished: maveth--death & tsalmaveth--the shadow of death. It will not do to say, death is the privation of life, for what then would be the shadow of that privation? Chuck Smith's Commentary: ""Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?" God is rebuking Job for talking about things that he doesn"t know anything about. "Have the gates of death been opened to you? Have you been beyond them? Do you know what is there?" You see, Job was saying, "Oh, I wish that I were dead, where all is silent, where there is no memory, where there is no thought. Oh, I wish I were in the oblivion of death. Where man is at rest, where everything is at peace." And God said, "Job, have you been there? Have the gates of death been opened to you? You"re talking about these things, Job, but you don"t know anything about them." That is why it is wrong to use the scriptures out of Job to try to prove the doctrine of soul sleep: when a person dies he is in an unconscious state of waiting, that there is no consciousness or awareness or anything else. That is wrong to conclude those doctrines out of the book of Job, which they usually find their proof scriptures in Job or in Ecclesiastes. [Solomon's teaching about life apart from God 'under the sun'; i.e., life in the land of the living. There is nothing one can do to go back & be able to do all things one did while living on earth, under the sun.] These were things that Job was saying, but God is rebuking him for saying them", not having a correct understanding of them. ------ 19 Declare it — if you have known it all. Where [is] this — THE WAY where light dwelleth? And DARKNESS, where [is] this — IT'S PLACE? Can you take THEM TO their places? Do you know the paths to THEIR DWELLINGS? ...Do you know the ORDINANCES OF HEAVEN; can you place HIS DOMINION UPON THE EARTH? Who placed wisdom in the INWARD PARTS [CJB]? Ps 107:18 Their souls had hated all food & had arrived unto THE GATES OF DEATH. Amos 5:8 Seek Him Who MADE the 7 stars & Orion & turned the SHADOW OF DEATH into morning...(Job 3:5; 10:21,22; 12:22; 16:16; 24:17; 28:3; 34:22; Ps 23:4; 44:19; Jer 13:15-17; Lk 1:79; Mt 4:16) Isaiah 38:10 I said, In the quiet of my days I must depart; I am consigned to enter THE GATES OF SHEOL [LXX: Hades] deprived for the rest of my years. I am deprived the rest of my years. I said, I shall not see again YHWH, YHWH in THE LAND OF THE LIVING. I shall behold man no more with the inhabitants of the world. My home is broken up, and is carried off from me like a shepherd's tent. I rolled up my life like a weaver; He would have cut me loose from the roll. From day to night Thou makest an end of me."
5/20/2017 8:46:12 PM	Do As the Bereans Did Acts 17:11 and Practice Heb 13:1
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	(continued) Ellicott's Commentary: --my home, or habitation . . . as in Ps 49:19 & thus fitting in better with the similitude that follows. The “home” is, of course, the mortal body, as the temporary dwelling-place of the spirit. (Ps 52:5, “He will take U away, even snatching U out of your tent” & Job 21:28, “Is not their tent-cord torn away?” [Heb]) The “shepherd’s tent” is a type of a transitory home or habitation (2Cor 5:1-4). Jamieson, Fausset & Brown Commentary: "departed—is broken up, or shifted, as a tent to a different locality. The same image occurs (2Co 5:1; 2Pet 1:13, 14). He plainly expects to continue existing & not consciously cease to be when in another state; as the shepherd still lives after he has struck his tent & removed elsewhere, [so the analogy is applied to after he dies, once removed from his earthly tent, his mortal body.] Ezek 26:20 For thus says Adonai YHWH: "I WILL bring U down with those who DESCEND INTO THE PIT, THOSE WHO DESCENDED THERE LONG AGO & will make U to DWELL IN THE LOWER PARTS OF THE EARTH, in the PLACES that are desolate FROM OLD. Deut 32:22 For a FIRE has been kindled by My anger: *it burns to lowest [part of] SHEOL. S.O.S 8:6 Cruel as SHEOL is jealousy, its burnings are burnings of FIRE, a flame of YHWH! Rev 20:15 Whoever was NOT found written in the book of life was cast into the LAKE OF FIRE Matt 25:34,41 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are BLESSED by My Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom PREPARED for you since THE CREATION OF THE WORLD...“Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you who are CURSED, INTO THE ETERNAL FIRE PREPARED FOR THE DEVIL & HIS ANGELS. Rev 20:9,10 But FIRE came down from heaven & CONSUMED them. 10And THE DEVIL who had deceived them was THROWN INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE & SULFUR, into which the beast & the false prophet had already been thrown. There they will be TORMENTED DAY & NIGHT FOR EVER & EVER. Notice that two men (the beast & the false prophet) are thrown in the lake of fire as well as the devil. All of them will be tormented day & night for ever & ever. They will NOT be annihilated or completely destroyed or extinguished. As with other people, they now have resurrected bodies that are incorruptible & immortal (I Cor 15). Just as the soul cannot be killed (Mt 10:28), now the resurrected body can't be killed; a person will continue to exist for ever. This is the typical description of what happens to those that are cast or thrown into the lake of fire aka Gehenna of fire. Mt 25:29 And THROW that worthless servant INTO THE OUTER DARKNESS, where there will be weeping & gnashing of teeth. (Mt 22:12-14; Lk 13:28; Mt 8:12) Mt 8:10-13 When Jesus heard this, he was amazed & said to those following Him, “Truly I tell U, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. 11 I say to U that many will come from the east & the west & will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac & Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the children of the kingdom will be THROWN INTO OUTER DARKNESS, where there will be weeping & gnashing of teeth.” 13 Then Jesus said to the centurion, “Go! Let it be done just as you believed it would.” And his servant was healed at that moment. Job 31:12 For it is a FIRE that devours to...ABADDON. (Jewish Encyclopedia: 'the nether world, almost synonymous with Sheol; the realm of destruction.') [Job 26:6; 28:22] Ezek 31:14-18 For they are ALL GIVEN OVER TO DEATH IN THE LOWER PARTS OF THE EARTH, IN THE MIDST of the children of men, with THEM that GO DOWN TO THE PIT. Thus says Adonai YHWH, "On the day when he went DOWN TO SHEOL I caused lamentations...I made the nations quake at the sound of his fall, when I sent him DOWN TO SHEOL WITH THOSE WHO GO DOWN TO THE PIT. Rom 4:25 He was DELIVERED OVER TO DEATH--FOR OUR TRESPASSES... Rev_9:2 He opened THE PIT OF THE ABYSS & there came up a smoke...of a GREAT FURNACE (Lk 8:31; Rom 10:7; Ps 104:6; Rev 9:1,2,11; 11:7; 17:8; 20:1,3) Rev 21:8 ...The unbelieving, abominable, murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters & all liars, will have their part IN THE LAKE WHICH BURNS WITH FIRE & BRIMSTONE; which is the SECOND DEATH. Isa_33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; trembling seizes the godless: "Who among us can dwell with the CONSUMING FIRE...with EVERLASTING BURNINGS?" MT 11:23 And U, Capernaum, will U be lifted up to heaven? No, U will DESCEND into HADES. Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the LIVING God.” Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh & blood, but by My Father in heaven. And I tell U that U are Peter & on THIS ROCK I will build My church, & THE GATES OF HELL (HADES) WILL NOT OVERCOME--IT [not U]. ALL the early church fathers & a majority of later ones, in their commentaries & writings on Mt 16, all stated Peter was NOT the 'rock' that Christ would build His church on but on Peter's CONFESSIONAL BELIEF: 'U are the Messiah, THE Son of the Living God.' This is further confirmed by the gates of Hades not overcoming IT, not U, if it was referring to Peter. This is further confirmed that the myth that Peter is standing by hades or heaven's gates, keeping people from going in or welcoming them, is not true. There is no Scripture telling us this. But EVERYONE who makes the CONFESSION, believing that the Lord Jesus is the Messiah, The Son of the living God, is saved & set free from the power of death to hold us. Upon one's confession of faith--we are transferred out of death & into the unending life of God. (Jn 5:24; 11:26; I Jn 3:14; Rom 6:4,5) Num 14:34 For 40 years--1 year for each of the 40 days U explored the land--U will suffer for your sins & know what it is like to have ME AGAINST U. Then all the TREES OF EDEN...THE WELL-WATERED TREES, were COMFORTED in the earth below...Whom are you thus like in glory & in greatness among the trees of Eden? You shall be brought down with the trees of Eden to the [KJV--nether parts of the earth] world below [NET--lower parts of the earth; NIV--realm of the dead; YLT--the earth, the lower part]. You shall lie among the uncircumcised, with those who are slain by the sword. “This is Pharaoh & all his multitude, declares Adonai YHWH.” 17They too, like the great cedar, had gone down to the realm of the dead...Yet you, too, will be brought down with the trees of Eden to the earth below; you will lie among the uncircumcised, with those killed by the sword. ?‘This is Pharaoh & all his multitudes" declares Adonai YHWH.' Keil & Delitszhe Commentary: (In the midst of the context of the above verse, we find these passages concerning the tree where 'birds of every kind will NEST in it; they will find shelter in the SHADE OF ITS BRANCHES--Ezek 17:22-24; Ezek 31:6 with Mt 13:32; Mk 4:32; Lk 13:19) "The very fact that a distinction is made between trees of the field (Ezek 31:4,5) & trees of Eden in the garden of God (Ezek 31:8,9), shows that the trees are not all regarded here as being in the same sense planted by God. If the garden of God stood for the world, where should we then have to look for the field? (Mt 13:24-32) ...It is the garden of PARADISE in Ezek 31:9,16,18; 28:13. The distinction in Gen 2:8 is the same distinction here. It was not all Eden, but THE GARDEN PLANTED BY YHWH Elohim in Eden, which formed the real paradisaical creation." (to be continued) [Edited 5/20/2017 8:48:48 PM ]
5/21/2017 7:06:49 AM	Do As the Bereans Did Acts 17:11 and Practice Heb 13:1
isna_la_wica Brantford, ON 63, joined Mar. 2012	And God said, "Job, have you been there? Have the gates of death been opened to you? You"re talking about these things, Job, but you don"t know anything about them." That is why it is wrong to use the scriptures out of Job to try to prove the doctrine of soul sleep: when a person dies he is in an unconscious state of waiting, that there is no consciousness or awareness or anything else. That is wrong to conclude those doctrines out of the book of Job, which they usually find their proof scriptures in Job or in Ecclesiastes. [Solomon's teaching about life apart from God 'under the sun'; i.e., life in the land of the living. There is nothing one can do to go back & be able to do all things one did while living on earth, under the sun.] These were things that Job was saying, but God is rebuking him for saying them", not having a correct understanding of them. Caught up with my renovations, so will catch up to day with my studies and your posts, today. lol, rainy and too sore to do any thing else! Looking forward to it Doc.
5/22/2017 8:22:21 AM	Do As the Bereans Did Acts 17:11 and Practice Heb 13:1
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	Glad you got caught up, Rich, in getting the place ready to sell. We aren't getting any younger LOL and those muscles get sore sooner and stay sore longer! Even the most righteous saints of God, at times, question God, especially during trials or periods of silence from God or not fully understanding why God does what He does or allows certain things to happen, EVEN THOUGH THEY KNOW what He said & that He is holy & just & doesn't lie & cannot sin. So we humanistically try to reason things out, questioning God & changing what He said in order to make a 'better' God who is not so wrathful or let sinners off the hook because God couldn't be that cruel to cast people into the Lake of fire for eternity. It isn't until these people FACE GOD DIRECTLY, that they repent & realize they spoke out rashly & inaccurately. Job 42:2-5 Then Job answered YHWH & said: “I know that U can do all things & that no purpose of Yours can be thwarted. ‘Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?’ Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know. ‘Hear & I will speak; I will question U & U make it known to me.’ I had heard of U by the hearing of the ear, but now my eye sees U; therefore I despise myself, & repent in dust & ashes.” Job is a good example. Habakkuk is another. Elijah is another. Moses is another. John the Baptist is another. Though Jesus states that there is no other prophet like John & that he faithfully obeyed God in preparing the way for our Lord Jesus Christ, yet in a moment of despair in his imprisonment, he questions whether Jesus truly is the Messiah & maybe they should look for another. Jesus wasn't acting as they thought He should, to fulfill the requirements of the Messiah. He began to doubt the Suffering Messiah Scriptures in favor of the Conquering Messiah & King for Israel. Such are those, especially in this day & age who have charged God with wrong by putting people in the eternal hell, the Gehenna of fire, the Lake of fire, the Second Death as if they didn't deserve it. The God of the Bible couldn't be that cruel or unjust so they go about adding humanistic teachings, changing the meaning of Biblical words to 'rescue' God so He doesn't look bad. They invent such things as annihilation or extinction or go the opposite pendulum swing to universal salvation. The enemy of our souls is busy with his deception to keep people from the facing the truth, as God has revealed it in His Word. The misunderstanding of the nature of God and the misunderstanding of the nature of man & the misunderstanding of the nature of sin & death has led to these issue today. The devil no longer exists & is a good guy, some even equating him as a brother of Jesus (LDS). The fall of man is a myth (TUB) & there was no rebellion against God nor sin because we all are part of God & are sinless. There is no temporary or eternal hell where people will be punished & held accountable for their own sins, deeds, words, works & choices to reject God & go their own way. Somehow we human beings must rescue them & rescue God, either saving them all, forcing them to accept the God that they have rejected all their lives or annihlating and extinguishing them all, as if that is somehow just. How much punishment does a person need who has taken someone's child & abused them in some way or raped or killed them? How much punishment is needed to repay the unrepentant wicked person for something that is priceless & can never be gotten back, that those who suffered such atrocities have to live with every day of their lives. They never forget; they can't, the pain is so great. How does Jesus view this? (Rev 6:9-11) How much punishment & for how long do you give someone who lies & preaches another gospel & deceives many people, leading many people astray, like the Pharisees & Scribes? (Mt 23) How is this viewed in Scripture? (Gal 1:6-9) What are the two factors that decide the destiny of the ungodly & unbelieving? Two pertinent passages are Revelation 19 & 20 and Matthew 25. People will be standing before the Lord Jesus as He sits on His throne. Does Jesus arbitarily decide their final destination? No. The evidence is weighed for each person by what they have done in this life. The 'BOOKS were opened' & 'the dead were judged ACCORDING TO WHAT THEY HAVE DONE as recorded in the books.' 'I was hungry & you gave Me nothing to eat, I was thirsty & you gave Me nothing to drink, I was a stranger & you did not invite Me in, I needed clothes & you did not clothe Me, I was sick & in prison & you did not look after Me.’“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ 45“He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you DID NOT DO for one of the least of these, you did not do for Me.’ 46“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” Notice the contrast between the works of the sheep & the goats. Notice also the issue of the nature & the duration of what happens to each one. The goats are sent away & go into punishment. The sheep are welcomed into the Christ's kingdom & go into life. The righteous enter into life, into a kingdom that has NO END (Is 9:7; Dan 7:14; Lk 1:33) The unrighteous enter into punishment, in the Lake of fire that also has no end The last factor in the judgment is to look into the BOOK OF LIFE, THE LAMB'S BOOK OF LIFE as to who has this life & who doesn't. Both have resurrected, immortal spiritual bodies now that cannot decay or end & can exist in the spiritual realm, like their souls/spirits. Those who believe have the unending life of God; those who do not believe do not have this life of God. Some will look at the word 'destroy' in Mt 10:28 (Lk 12:5) or Rev 17:8-11 & say that the unbelieving wicked will be 'annihlated' & cease to exist. 'Destroy both soul & body in hell (kai psuchn kai swma apolesai en geennh). Note "soul" here of the eternal spirit, not just life in the body. "Destroy" here is not annihilation, but eternal punishment in Gehenna (the real hell) for which see on "Mt 5:22".' A.T. Robertson, 'Word Pictures in the NT.' The Greek word is 'apollumi', the prefix 'apo' (G575) meaning off or away, denoting separation or departure and 'ollumi' from the base of a related word, 'olethros' (G3639) meaning ruin (prolonged form, to destroy). Thayer's Greek lexicon. TDNT:1/394 also gives the idea of ruin, bringing or rendering something useless, to be lost or perish. It can mean destroy or kill in the physical world, where things or a mortal body is burned up. But Mt 10:28 is talking about a time AFTER someone has physically died, where their soul/spirit is existing in the spiritual realm & when they return to a resurrected immortal (incorruptible, can't decay or be burned up to dust) spiritual body. Here in the Gehenna of fire, a person is brought to ruin & misery, because they can no longer be killed or destroyed & go back to dust. Gen 9:11 "There will never again be a flood to destroy the earth." Was the earth completely annhilated or brought to extinction at the time of the flood? No. But did it bring ruin & misery, causing things to depart from it? Yes.
5/22/2017 8:23:28 AM	Do As the Bereans Did Acts 17:11 and Practice Heb 13:1
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	(continued) The 8th king, the beast, is a man who leads the world astray & puts a mark on people so they cannot sell or buy without it. It says he is going to 'destruction' along with the man called the false prophet. However, in Rev 19:20 & 20:10, these two men are not annihilated at all or brought to extinction, to be no more. But their destruction instead, is to mean they who had all this power & control were suddenly brought to ruin & misery & punishment ('destruction') in the Lake of fire, where they are tormented DAY & NIGHT--FOR EVER & EVER. These are two men, two ungodly human beings cast into the lake of fire & the duration is for eternity. The same occurs to the devil. He was put in the abyss for a 1000 years where the smoke of a great furnace rose up. Was he 'destroyed' or annihilated in the fire? No. He is later cast into the lake of fire and continues to exist there without end. What makes people try & twist the Scripture to say that all other human beings cast into the lake of fire will be extinguished or annihilated & won't experience the same nature & duration there that the previous two human beings were experiencing? They will experience the same thing, day & night without rest. Rev 14:10,11 They will be tormented with burning sulfur..the smoke of their torment will rise for ever & ever. There will be NO REST DAY OR NIGHT for those who worship the beast & its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name. It is something they chose for themselves, something that they did to themselves. God prepared a place, but they chose all their life to turn away from God & His provision in Christ & despite His repeated kindness meant to lead them to repentance & faith in Christ, they refused to repent & provided the very reasons for why they were there. It is indeed sad to watch the unbelieving like this. We were once like that, so we can understand. It breaks one's heart & shows the great necessity & urgency of preaching the gospel to the lost. (to be continued)
5/22/2017 10:12:48 AM	Do As the Bereans Did Acts 17:11 and Practice Heb 13:1
mindya Vancouver, BC 64, joined Jan. 2009	Looks like I need a bump...
5/23/2017 3:01:31 AM	Do As the Bereans Did Acts 17:11 and Practice Heb 13:1
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	Thanks mindya for the bump! I will now address your last two posts, a_nubian. Thanks for the respectful dialogue. Hopefully you read my last posts in ludlow's thread: Is Hell For all Eternity. Also that you have gotten a chance to read my posts here on the existence of the temporary and eternal hells & on God's fire as eternal because God is eternal, doesn't change & His nature is 'consuming fire.' Quote of a_nubian: 3. We would rather believe a lie than believe the truth. I am understanding this to mean that an everlasting fire for the wicked is truth. To not except this truth & teach otherwise would be a lie." You are correct in your understanding on this point as I understand the whole of Scripture as revealed progressively from Genesis to Revelation. It is the ancient, historical teaching that has been passed down to us & which we still have today, though more & more are rejecting it. Quote: "My understanding via the bible is that the unsaved will be held accountable and the God will punish them along with the Satan and his angels in the Lake of Fire. It's the duration that is at question. Will they burn forever or will they by fire be utterly destroyed." The first part of your statement we both agree on. The second part of your statement we both disagree on. The third part is the crux of the matter & you have identified it very well: which one is true according to Scripture? You may have already seen my examples of what the Greek word, 'apolummi' can refer to & the example of two human beings cast into the lake of fire before the devil was, yet they experience torment day & night, without rest and it is also added to make sure you understand the perpetuity of day after day & night after night, without rest, that it is forever & the superlative is added even to that: and ever. They were cast in alive earlier. Yet when the devil is cast in, they are mentioned as STILL being there, STILL experiencing torment, that has continued since they were cast in their alive & it continues day after day, night after night, with no rest. One can try to twist the Scripture to make it not mean what it says: eternal, unending--that it only has a finite ending--or that it means 'complete' or it has 'stopped' when the word complete or stopped is not used in the Scripture in this situation. Now these two humans have been experiencing for awhile the SECOND DEATH, not death as you mention. It is specific in Scripture. The first death is already GONE & its power over mankind at this point. It has finally been defeated. But the Second death hasn't gone nor will it go away; the Lake of fire is unending. Scripture never mentions it as having been defeated or done away with; so when the devil is cast in there, these two are continuing not annihilated. They have not been 'utterly destroyed' as you assert happens to unregenerate human beings that are placed in the Lake of fire. I am glad that you mentioned the term, 'utterly destroyed.' This term is used in the KJV 57X. Each time it is used, it refers to utterly destroying MORTAL HUMAN BEINGS living in the physical realm & cities built in the physical world. It is never applied to anyone existing in the spiritual realm or those who no longer have a mortal body but those that have been resurrected to now have an immortal body that is not subject to decay or being utterly destroyed but continues to exist unending. You can't 'UTTERLY BURN' this body like the former 'MORTAL' body, because it is raised to last eternally, forever. Both unbelievers & believers are resurrected with a body like this. So when eternity or time with no end is applied to these new spiritual bodies existing in the spiritual realm, you can't annihilate them. One needs the word 'utterly' attached to destroy in order to emphasize the false teaching of annihilation. Yet it isn't a biblical application in this situation. The demonic angelic ruler called Death & the demonic angelic ruler of the realm of Hades also named Hades (Rev 6:8) are depicted as riding on horses & are given authority to kill 1/4 of mankind by 4 ways. We also see a demonic prince or ruler over the abyss (or bottomless pit or the great chasm in Luke 16), whose name is called 'Destroyer.' (Rev 9:11). These demonic rulers also go into the Lake of fire, after giving up the dead in them & the demonic angels in them. Notice the equating of 'destroy' (Lk 4:24; Mk 1:24) with 'torment' (Mt 8:29) that the demons Jesus was casting out of people used, not equating it to annihilation. Jonah 2:6 KJV And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD & He heard me; out of the belly of HELL[SHEOL] cried I & Thou heardest my voice. I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou BROUGHT UP--MY LIFE--from CORRUPTION, O LORD my God. JPS Tenakh 1917: 'Out of the belly of the nether-world' NIV: 'the earth beneath barred me in forever.' NET: 'the gates of the netherworld barred me in forever.' One must remember what Jesus taught concerning Jonah's situation. It was a definite SIGN, verifying what He had been saying about Himself, that He must suffer, die, descending to the lower parts of the earth, then be resurrected, not seeing corruption & all this was done in 3 days. He was a clear sign of the gospel message. Jonah died & having departed his body in the belly of the fish, Jonah cried out of Sheol/Hades/hell, the netherworld; the place below the earth where the departed soul/spirit went after physical death. Jesus went there also after He physically died on the cross. It has been described in Scripture as having bars & gates. Jonah stated his body in the belly of the fish was saved from corruption; so was Jesus' body. Jonah experienced affliction & suffering; so did Jesus. Jonah's life, his soul/spirit, was brought up out of Sheol The understanding at that time was that there was no escape from death; once the soul/spirit departed away from the physical, decaying body & went to the nether-world of Sheol/Hades, there it remained, under the power of death (Heb 2:14,15; 2 Tim 1:10). It was a hopeless situation & a real fear people had. Jonah's life (his soul/spirit) is described as being BROUGHT UP out of hell. He isn't being barred in for ever, there actually is escape from death! His language is poetic in his descriptions. But with Christ there is hope, because He stated that the 'gates of Hades will not prevail.'
5/23/2017 3:02:02 AM	Do As the Bereans Did Acts 17:11 and Practice Heb 13:1
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	Here again in Heb 2:14,15 that word 'destroyed' is used, only this time Jesus is going to destroy the devil--'that my means of His death, He might DESTROY him that had the power of death...' FINALLY: the devil is going to be annihilated, utterly destroyed, no more devil, good riddance. Isn't that what destroy is supposedly to mean? Or is he? The devil is a spirit being, dwelling in the spiritual realm. But low & behold, he isn't destroyed at Christ's death but HIS POWER & AUTHORITY have been 'ruined, have been brought to nothing, have been rendered useless.' [actual meaning of destroy] He continues to exist & eventually, he too, is cast into the lake of fire to be tormented day & night, with no rest, forever...and ever. All three are continuing to experience the 'second death' without end. So... If the the same condition applied to the two human beings (who have incorruptible, immortal bodies)--is also applied to the devil--& both are mentioned as being destroyed, what really was destroyed or rendered powerless, since it doesn't mean annihilated? (to be continued)
5/23/2017 8:37:34 PM	Do As the Bereans Did Acts 17:11 and Practice Heb 13:1
isna_la_wica Brantford, ON 63, joined Mar. 2012	Quote from brashdoc: Here again in Heb 2:14,15 that word 'destroyed' is used, only this time Jesus is going to destroy the devil--'that my means of His death, He might DESTROY him that had the power of death...' FINALLY: the devil is going to be annihilated, utterly destroyed, no more devil, good riddance. Isn't that what destroy is supposedly to mean? Or is he? The devil is a spirit being, dwelling in the spiritual realm. But low & behold, he isn't destroyed at Christ's death but HIS POWER & AUTHORITY have been 'ruined, have been brought to nothing, have been rendered useless.' [actual meaning of destroy] He continues to exist & eventually, he too, is cast into the lake of fire to be tormented day & night, with no rest, forever...and ever. All three are continuing to experience the 'second death' without end. So... If the the same condition applied to the two human beings (who have incorruptible, immortal bodies)--is also applied to the devil--& both are mentioned as being destroyed, what really was destroyed or rendered powerless, since it doesn't mean annihilated? (to be continued) Good evaluation concerning Satan, I heard a Preacher once relate him to being like a snake with his head chopped off after his defeat at the cross. Writhing in nervous stimulation even after that head came off. As for life after physical death of the body? Read Luke 16:19-31 , it is clear that Jesus is teaching us that both Lazurus and the rich man, were conscious and aware. This is not a parable. Jesus was very clear every time he spoke one, that he was making up a story. Some try to pass this off as a parable. But in none of his parables, did Jesus actually make up a name. But so what, if it was?Would that negate what Jesus was teaching us? Did he ever make up a story/ parable, that involved a lie? Why would he make up a parable, with out a true point in it? Jesus is very clearly talking about a surviving consciousness after death and before the resurrection. He would not make a parable, that was a lie, even if it was one, which it is not. And then we have confirmation of life after physical death in 2 Corinthians : 5:8Amplified Bible, Classic Edition (AMPC) 8 [Yes] we have confident and hopeful courage and are pleased rather to be away from home out of the body and be at home with the Lord. If the soul dies, or is "sleeping ", then this verse makes no sense. None at all.
5/24/2017 5:07:26 AM	Do As the Bereans Did Acts 17:11 and Practice Heb 13:1
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	Thank you Rich for your insights & for seeing the story of Dives, the certain tormented rich man turned poor & Lazarus, the now comforted poor man turned rich as a true story with eternal truths taught. There is indeed an afterlife, a conscious existence of our souls/spirits that depart from our physical bodies at the time of physical death & enter into the other dimension of God's creation, the invisible spiritual realm, where God exists & dwells as well as the angelic creatures. God has made a place for each to exist, as well as preparing a place for those who have repented & believed (Jn 14). You cannot kill the soul according to Jesus' teaching but you can kill the mortal body. A person is at various times, described in Scripture as a soul that can be killed. The actual soul & spirit are created in the image & likeness of God because God IS SPIRIT, immaterial, invisible. Yet even after physical death we have a spiritual 'form' until we receive our resurrected immortal spiritual bodies. When a person sins & becomes spiritually dead, the soul & spirit become spiritually dead, even though they are conscious & existing. So it depends on what life one is talking about and what death one is talking about. The prophet Samuel, when brought up momentarily from Sheol [in the compartment called paradise aka the garden of God aka Gan Eden aka Abraham's bosom aka abode of bliss, etc.] had a spiritual 'form' when his soul/spirit were made visible in the invisible spiritual realm. He was recognizable, even without his former mortal body. He was not sleeping but resting. There is a difference. He was communicating & was aware by God's will, what was going on with Saul & what would happen to he & his sons on the following day & where they would end up after being physically killed: they would be where Samuel was! And again those below were conscious, communicating souls/spirits existing in the spiritual realm & aware of what had happened to them & yearning for the justice & judgment of God upon those who had murdered them. How much time in the Gehenna of fire aka the Lake of fire aka the SECOND Death is needed to avenge the murder of someone? Can it ever repay in a determined length or short duration of time the price of a single life that was taken? Or the heartache & sorrow for the family members who suffer their whole life on earth due to this atrocity? People often don't think of these things when charging God as wrong or unjust or cruel for bringing eternal punishment to the wicked, who refuse to repent of their wickedness or unbelief. Have you ever watched the Nuremburg trials or watched serial killers, or people cutting off people's heads with swords, etc. & their maintaining their innocence, having no remorse & that what they had done was actually good & right, even a service to God? It is chilling! John 16:1-4 All this I have told you so that you will not fall away. They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are OFFERING A SERVICE TO GOD. They will do such things because they have NOT KNOWN the Father or Me. I have told you this, so that when their time comes you will remember that I warned you about them. Rev 6:9-11 And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God & for the testimony they had upheld. And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy & true, until You judge those who live on the earth & AVENGE OUR BLOOD?” Then each of them was given a white robe & told to REST A LITTLE WHILE LONGER--UNTIL--the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers, were killed, just as they had been killed. Sleeping was a Hebrew & Greek idiom for those who had physically died & departed from their bodies. It was a more comforting term to use to describe the awfulness of physical death. Jesus corrected the disciples when they misunderstood Him about Lazarus being asleep. They thought he meant they could just wake him up & he would be OK. Instead, He told them that Lazarus was actually DEAD. That was the truth, despite using the more comforting idiom, to ease the pain of death. It is bibically OK to use the term sleep but when one does, it is also understood what is really meant when that idiomatic term is used. YOU DON'T JUST WAKE SOMEONE UP FROM SLEEP WHO HAS PHYSICALLY DIED. It doesn't work that way. You can shake the empty, cold, mortal body all you want but it won't wake up. That which was the living human being or person, the alive part has now DEPARTED into the spiritual realm. Now back to addressing a_nubian's posts. I can understand your reluctance to try & grasp the Scriptural teaching of eternal punishment. It is not a subject any of us approaches as something fun or lighthearted. It is a matter of sober reflection. Yet it is mentioned as one of the basic or elementary Christian teachings new or young Christians learn as they grow in their faith toward maturity in Christ. (Heb 6:2) Also this 'burning eternally' is not actual physical flames, in my opinion but burning in the sense of regret, burning in the sense of shame, burning in the sense of placing burning coals on the head of an enemy when you treat them with kindness. The flames from God in the spiritual realm are not like those in the physical realm. This teaching was one I was taught as a young Christian, now almost 44 years ago. It caused within me a great compassion for the lost. My understanding of it hasn't changed but gotten more confirmed, the more I study the Scriptures & understanding the nature of God as holy & understanding the depths of the awfulness of sin. There is indeed an urgency in preaching & living the gospel, working with the Lord in His harvest field. 'The harvest is plentiful but the laborers are few. Pray therefore, the Lord of the harvest to 'thrust out' laborers into His harvest field.' Jn 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son WILL NOT SEE LIFE, for God’s wrath remains on them. You erroneously believe that because the unbelieving dead have their bodies raised in immortality, that they have received eternal life. That is just not the truth according to Scripture. Only through repentance & belief in the gospel & obeying it as an evidence of being regenerated, brings eternal life. Those who do not believe or obey the gospel will NOT see life or experience it. They remain spiritually dead, not having the life of God, though they recieve a new spiritual body that will live on forever, being immortal. They have NOT been transferred out of spiritual death into spiritual life. They have not been transferred into the kingdom of light but remain in the kingdom of darkness under the power of the evil one. Their sin remains as Jesus taught. Their evil deeds remain to be judged impartially & righteously.That is the ONLY basis left for the ungodly to be judged by, since they have rejected Christ & spurned the blood that bought them & outraged the Spirit of grace who continually tried to save them.
5/24/2017 5:23:14 AM	Do As the Bereans Did Acts 17:11 and Practice Heb 13:1
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	(continued) Quote: "(Duet 23:3) An Ammonite or Moabite shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to their tenth generation shall they not enter into the congregation of the LORD for ever. Ammonite/Moabite attacked Israel - Punishment - Not allowed to enter Israel's Congregation - Duration 10 generations - For Ever. For the Ammonites and Moablites it was for past iniquities, but yet Ruth being a Moabite joined Israel." 'An Ammonite or Moabite shall not enter.' According to Rashi (one of the top rabbi's in all of Jewish history), “shall not marry an Israelitish woman.” It must be remembered that the children, according to Jewish law, follow the father, not the mother. The case of Ruth would not, therefore, be touched by this precept." Benson Commentary Deut 23:3 An Ammonite or a Moabite — The Jews will have it, that the women of these two nations were not concerned in this law. And that though an Israelitish woman might not marry an Ammonite or Moabite, yet a man of Israel might marry one of their women, after she professed the Jewish religion. For ever—This denotes the perpetuity of this law, that it should be inviolably observed in all succeeding ages. ['Heaven & earth will pass away but My words will not pass away.'] Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible An Ammonite or Moabite shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord--Or marry an Israelitish woman, as Jarchi & so the Targum of Jonathan,"the male Ammonites & Moabites are not fit to take a wife of the congregation of the Lord; ''for the Jews restrain this to men, because it is, as Aben Ezra observes, an Ammonite, not an Ammonitess, a Moabite, not a Moabitess; they allow that females of those nations might be married to Israelites, that is, provided they were proselytesses, as Ruth was.(m) 'Even to their 10th generation, shall they not enter into the congregation of the Lord for ever' --that is, not ONLY to the 10th generation, but for ever. This is evident in Neh 13:1. This law was understood as still in force in Nehemiah's time, which was more than 10 generations [almost 23 generations later] from the making of it. Some Jewish rabbi's think--though now, as these nations are no more a distinct people, they suppose it is no longer binding. (n). (m) Misn. Yebamot, c. 8. sect. 3.((n) Misn. Yadaim, c. 4. sect. 4. Matthew Poole's Commentary: 'For ever'-- So it seems to note the immutability & perpetuity of this law, that it should be inviolably observed in all succeeding ages & not dispensed with for any merit in the persons, or any pretence whatsoever. But why then should this clause be added only here, seeing the foregoing laws are as inviolable as this? It seems therefore to extend the duration of this exclusion of them from the congregation of the Lord beyond what was said at first & to be added by way of aggravation, even to their 10th generation shall they not enter—yea, even for ever, i.e. they shall never enter, as it is expressed, without any mention of the tenth generation, in Nehemiah 13:1, that they shall not come into the congregation of God for ever. Adam Clarke Commentary An Ammonite or Moabite - These nations were subjected for their impiety and wickedness, (see Deut 23:4; and Deut 23:5, to peculiar disgrace, and on this account were not permitted to hold any office among the Israelites. But this did not disqualify them from being proselytes: Ruth, who was a Moabitess, was married to Boaz, and she became one of the progenitors of our Lord. Even to their 10th generation - That is, for ever, as the next clause explains; see Neh 13:1. Wesley's Explanatory Notes: For ever - This seems to note the perpetuity of this law, that it should be inviolably observed in all succeeding ages. John Trapp Complete Commentary: Vs. 3--For ever--This law is perpetual & indispensable. E.W. Bullinger's Companion Bible Notes: Moabite. Hebrew, masculine. Therefore not excluding Ruth the Moabitess proselyte. Mt 1:5. Compare Ruth 1:14-16. I could show more but most all scholars & commentators are in agreement as to the interpretation of the verse & as to the reasons why such a prohibition was given, based on the contextual verses of their wickedness toward Israel. Quote: "Sodom & Gomorrha (Jude 7) Even as Sodom & Gomorrha & the cities about them in like manner...suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. Sodom/Gomorrah wickedness - Punishment - Hail Fire - Duration - until their cities were utterly destroyed leaving no trace- Eternal Fire an eternal consequence." It is important you picked this one. You have assumed that the 'eternal' or ongoing fire--FROM the eternal GOD, who is consuming fire--that started in the physical realm when God physically 'destroyed this place' (Gen 19:12) has stopped. It hasn't. 2 Pet 2:9 Berean Literal Bible "...Then the Lord knows to deliver the devout out of temptation [trials] & to keep the unrighteous being punished unto the day of judgment." (to be continued)
5/25/2017 11:26:55 PM	Do As the Bereans Did Acts 17:11 and Practice Heb 13:1
_ladybug_ Paragould, AR 66, joined Sep. 2013	Thank you Brashdoc for the tremendous love you have for the Almighty. Thank you for posting in the Christian group, sharing Scripture with us with the love, time and dedication you put forth. Though I do read and study Scripture, you always give perspective and truth that brings forth my desire to study deeper into Scripture. I pray others are reading your thread and are inspired to study deeper into Scripture as I am, especially in the evil times we now live in. I have to admit, I come into this Christian group hoping to read and discuss Scripture with other like minded Christians, but sadly, there are but a few here anymore that I find inspired by Scripture and truth. Comes to mind something I read today and have read many, many times before and carries the need as never before with the times in which we live. The Armor of God 10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. 18 And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the Lord’s people. Ephesians 6:10-18 (NIV) Again, thank you, you are a true inspiration to us! God bless you.
5/26/2017 9:26:07 AM	Do As the Bereans Did Acts 17:11 and Practice Heb 13:1
clarity101 Aurora, CO 66, joined Oct. 2008	Quote from _ladybug_: Thank you Brashdoc for the tremendous love you have for the Almighty. Thank you for posting in the Christian group, sharing Scripture with us with the love, time and dedication you put forth. Though I do read and study Scripture, you always give perspective and truth that brings forth my desire to study deeper into Scripture. I pray others are reading your thread and are inspired to study deeper into Scripture as I am, especially in the evil times we now live in. I have to admit, I come into this Christian group hoping to read and discuss Scripture with other like minded Christians, but sadly, there are but a few here anymore that I find inspired by Scripture and truth. Comes to mind something I read today and have read many, many times before and carries the need as never before with the times in which we live. The Armor of God 10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. 18 And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the Lord’s people. Ephesians 6:10-18 (NIV) Again, thank you, you are a true inspiration to us! God bless you. its true lady, astonishing and disappointing, how few of the posters here are actually bible believing christians. i wish the 'monitors' of dh would not allow them here. perhaps if we just block them and they can no longer see our posts, but....... that is not the answer....i know. CHRISTS words should be open for everyone to see and hear. "We need to take a bold stand on the clarity and truthfulness of the Word of God from the very first verse. The superb film 'Is Genesis History?' gives us a tremendous boost in that essential effort." - Ken Ham #1 Christian Documentary of the Year Now available on DVD, Blu-ray, and Video on Demand. isgenesishistory.com
5/26/2017 10:57:52 AM	Do As the Bereans Did Acts 17:11 and Practice Heb 13:1
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 65, joined Feb. 2008	I am a Bible believing Christian. Do you know who put the Bible together in the first place? [Edited 5/26/2017 10:58:53 AM ]
5/26/2017 4:00:52 PM	Do As the Bereans Did Acts 17:11 and Practice Heb 13:1
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	Thank you, ladybug, for your encouraging words, the bump & that you are practicing Acts 17:11 as well & seeing these things are so according to the Scriptures. We indeed need to put on the full armor of God & stand in God's Almighty power & strength. 'The joy of the Lord is our strength.' Hallelujah! Back to showing that a_nubian's rationale for people being exterminated & annihilated in the Lake of fire, the Gehenna of fire is not actually valid or Scriptural. I dealt with the term 'destroy' & what it actually meant in various passages in context, that it didn't mean annihilation but being brought to ruin or rendering something useless. Many more passages could be shown to confirm with the number of ones I have already shown. I have shown the distinction between the fire in the physical realm being different than the fire in the spiritual realm; they are not the same. I have shown that the term, 'utterly destroyed' doesn't apply to after one dies but only before one dies & that it is also another 'emotional' phrase to evoke erroneous teaching. I have also addressed the issue of Rev 20:10 & Jonah in Jonah 2:6 & have also addressed the use of forever in Deut 23:3. I will now finish the issue of Sodom & Gomorrah being eternal fire. It is important you picked this one. It is talked about all through Scripture. You have assumed that the 'eternal' or ongoing fire--FROM the eternal GOD, who is consuming fire--that started in the physical realm when God physically 'destroyed this place' (Gen 19:12) has stopped. It hasn't. It has just changed its application from one realm (visible, physical) to another realm. (invisible, spiritual one) The eternal punishment didn't stop when God PHYSICALLY destroyed the mortal, corruptible bodies of the people & the cities & all they had built & possessed with fire & brimstone. That was only the beginning. God righteously & justly killed the bodies & burned the cities. But as Jesus taught, the souls were not killed along with their mortal bodies. The souls departed those burned bodies & were sent to Sheol/Hades in the invisible, spiritual realm. All through Scripture the prophets & the apostles & Christ repeatedly talk about Sodom & Gomorrah as a clarion warning to us all of the reality of eternal punishment. Ezekiel 16:48-50 "As I live," declares the Lord GOD, "Sodom, your sister & her daughters have not done as U & your daughters have done. Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she & her daughters had arrogance, abundant food & careless ease, but she did not help the poor & needy. [NLT 'suffering outside her door'] 50"Thus they were haughty & committed abominations before Me. Therefore I removed them when I saw it. 2 Pet 2:6-8 If He condemned the cities of Sodom & Gomorrah to destruction, reducing them to ashes as an EXAMPLE OF WHAT IS COMING ON THE UNGODLY; & if He rescued Lot, a righteous man distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless (for that righteous man, living among them DAY AFTER DAY, WAS TORMENTED in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw & heard) Notice in the first Scripture God says he REMOVED these wicked people. Where? Those removed by God in Sodom & Gomorrah & surrounding cities AFTER PHYSICAL DEATH were placed in Sheol or the spiritual abode of the dead where all souls went at that time & they are waiting for the final judgment. Though this is my personal opinion, I believe that some of these wicked people experience the same torments now like invisible, spiritual flames in Sheol/Hades that Dives, the certain rich man, is experiencing. (Luke 16) According to the prophet Exekiel, they committed very similar sins that Dives did. They received their luxurious ease & abundance in their physical life but now torments in the afterlife. Lot is a good example of one who DAY AFTER DAY living there & raising a family went through DAILY TORMENTS IN HIS RIGHTEOUS SOUL while living under the sun, in the land of the living on this earth. What torments he experienced in his soul, in his sufferings on this earth, is what they will receive day after day, night after night, without rest, in not only their souls in Hades, but also their souls/spirits AND RESURRECTED, IMMORTAL SPIRITUAL bodies in the Lake of fire after the final judgment. Now Lot is comforted in Paradise. Can a person's soul be tormented? Yes. Can this torment continue day after day? Yes. As the passage in 2 Peter 2 shows and in Jude 1, God is able to bring comfort to the godly & to bring vengeance & just punishment & payment to those that have hurt the godly & innocent. People committing crimes against humanity do so not once but repeatedly, hurting many people & sometimes for all which a person has worked. Sodom & Gomorrah are spoken of as an example of the punishment that is coming on the ungodly at the final day, from Genesis to Revelation. Both Jude & Peter say that Sodom & Gomorrah have been a historical example to all those down through history since then, as to what is going to happen to those who also live ungodly. What were their sins? Gen 13:13 The men of Sodom were wicked exceedingly & sinners against the LORD. Gen 19:5 "Bring them out to us that we may have relations with them." ...Do not act wickedly. But they said, "Stand aside...This one came in as an alien & already he is acting like a judge; now we will treat you WORSE THAN THEM." So they pressed hard against Lot & came near to break the door. [homosexuality & rape & assault, breaking & entering] Gen_14:21 The king of Sodom said to Abram, Give me the persons & take the goods... Jude 1:7 fornication & going after strange flesh (homosexuality) 2 Pet 2:7 a righteous man distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless Ezek 16:49,50 arrogance, lived for self in luxury & careless ease, not helping the poor & needy, full of pride that God opposes, committing abominations (plural) Deut 32:32 For their vine is of the vine of Sodom & of the fields of Gomorrah; their grapes are grapes of gall, their clusters are bitter. The eternal fire of God did not stop at those physical cities back in Genesis. It continues with those souls now in Hades, like Dives, the certain rich man. And it will continue in the final judgment in the eternal lake of fire, the Gehenna of fire, the place of the Second Death in the spiritual realm. They will continue to suffer the vengeance of eternal fire, not only on earth, not only in Hades but now in the Lake of fire for ever & ever, day after day, night after night, not only experiencing ruin & misery & torments in the soul but also in their now risen, immortal bodies. You don't annihilate something that continues unending. This is why God has not stopped warning us about this consequence of sin & death while we live our lives on this earth.
5/26/2017 5:40:52 PM	Do As the Bereans Did Acts 17:11 and Practice Heb 13:1
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	This is why Sodom & Gomorrah are mentioned all through the Bible as a warning. Are we listening? Are we fearing God, who can bring to ruin & misery both to the soul & to the resurrected immortal body in the Gehenna of fire? People can kill the body but after that can do nothing more, to our soul/spirit, the inner being of who we are, separated from our mortal tent. But God can if we do not repent & trust in Christ & His shed blood to save us from sin, the wrath of God, from the 1st & 2nd death & to give us His eternal life. The power of the first death has been broken by the death, burial & resurrection of Christ. Jesus has set free the righteous dead out of paradise, out of the garden of Eden, out of Abraham's bosom as He has the keys of Hades & Death. However there is another power that has not been removed, that the unrighteous & unbelieving will experience. Rev 20:6 Blessed & holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death HAS NO POWER OVER THEM. How do I know this? When Jesus talks about the final judgment, He mentions the inhabitatns of Sodom & Gomorrah going through that judgment. Did those inhabitants get annihilated when the fire of God reduced their mortal bodies & cities to ash back at the time of Genesis? NO. Those people will be resurrected in immortal bodies & then face the great white throne judgment like all the rest of the ungodly, unbelieving wicked & self-righteous. Their souls/spirits still consciously exist in Hades, as they are resting & waiting for the resurrection & the judgment. Quote of a_nubian: "If all those that end up in the Lake of Fire burn for ever, there is no distinction between those that sinned greatly & those who did not sin as greatly." Again you focus SOLEY on 'burning people eternally' in the Lake of fire, in light of a physical fire that utterly destroys, which the Scripture does not focus on soley. But it does focus on degrees of punishment & some of those as more bearable for some than others. Many people don't realize that there are degrees of punishment in hell, just as there are degrees of reward in heaven. There were degrees of punishment in the Law as well, showing both the holiness of God to hold people accountable but also the justness & mercy of God on degrees of severity punishment for a variety of sins. That there are degrees of punishment is made evident by the following passages. It does talk about a lot of other aspects experienced by those punished that doesn't have to do with fire but has to do with shame, humiliation, angry gnashing of teeth, things gnawing at people LIKE WORMS, torments of the soul, existing in darkness, etc. Mt 10:15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more bearable for the land of Sodom & Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city. Mt 11:23,24 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell [Hades]. For if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. But I say unto you, that it shall be more bearable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee. Mark 6:11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city. Lk_10:12 But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city. Lam 4:5,6 Those who ate delicacies are desolate in the streets; those reared in purple embrace ash pits. For the punishment of the iniquity of the daughter of my people is greater than the PUNISHMENT of the sin of Sodom, that was overthrown as in a moment & no hands were turned toward her. We also see an aspect here in these verses that there are degrees of punishment that the unbelieving will experience in the Lake of fire. It is not an inflammatory 'people burning forever' emphasis but some aspects of the eternal punishment is actually going to be more bearable for some people than for others. Some of Jesus' parables also taught this. Gen 18:17-21,32,33 Then YHWH said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do? ...For I have chosen him, so that he will direct his children & his household after him to keep the WAY of YHWH by doing what is RIGHT & JUST, so that YHWH will bring about for Abraham what He has promised him.” 20Then YHWH said, “The OUTCRY AGAINST Sodom & Gomorrah is SO GREAT AND THEIR SIN SO GRIEVOUS 21 that I will go down see if what they have done is AS BAS AS THE CRYING OUT THAT HAS REACHED ME. If not, I will know.” 22The men turned away & went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before YHWH. 23Then Abraham approached Him & said: “Will U sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24What if there are 50 righteous people in the city? Will you really sweep it away & not spare the place for the sake of the 50 righteous people in it? 25Far be it from U to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, TREATING THE RIGHTEOUS & THE WICKED ALIKE. Far be it from U! Will not the Judge of all the earth DO RIGHT?”...Then he said, “May YHWH not be angry, but let me speak just once more. What if only 10 can be found there?” He answered, “For the sake of 10, I will not destroy it.” Here we see the heart of Abraham & the mercy of God. Do we have the same? Yet recognize the overwhelming wickedness in that whole area: there wasn't even 10 righteous people living in that region. God waited over 900 years before he brought the flood over the whole earth, because 'YHWH saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth & that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.' God waited over 400 years--until the sins of the Amorites had come to full measure (Gen 16:15)--before going before Israel as a 'consuming fire' to remove the people in the promised land. God did everything possible to prevent the exile of the Jews until there was no more remedy. God had delayed His judgment. (2 Chron 36:11-16). But He didn't stop His judgment & punishment once the measure of wrath & sin was made full. God is merciful, God is just & God is holy. He will do what is right & true & impartial, even the punishment of the wicked for eternity. I will deal with your further posts, a_nubian on your rationale for why you think God will not 'burn people forever' as I have time. You continue to focus very narrowly on this inflammatory laden phrase. If you can find that phrase in Scripture, let me know. (to be continued) [Edited 5/26/2017 5:41:20 PM ]
5/27/2017 1:46:35 PM	Do As the Bereans Did Acts 17:11 and Practice Heb 13:1
_ladybug_ Paragould, AR 66, joined Sep. 2013	Hi Clarity! Amen and God bless you for you speak the truth. "astonishing and disappointing, how few of the posters here are actually bible believing christians. i wish the 'monitors' of dh would not allow them here. perhaps if we just block them and they can no longer see our posts, but ....... that is not the answer....i know. CHRISTS words should be open for everyone to see and hear." Praise the Lord for His giving His Church the wisdom needed, through Scripture, to discern who true Bible believing Christians are for we're not to be unequally yoked with unbelievers. I also agree with you, they don't belong, nor should they be allowed to post in the Christian group. They have, as we've seen, a devious agenda. They preach false gospel trying to mislead true Christians down the "wide" and wrong path. They speak untrue words, twist God's Word just enough to make it sound like they're speaking truth, spew hatefulness towards others and try to instigate arguments. They do the work of the evil master. So very sad! I'll speak truth here ... Some can be exasperating at times! WHEW!! LOL Many times I ask myself, what would Jesus do, and many times read Scripture again. Also reminding myself .... The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I REFUSE to allow satan to ruffle me with his devious and evil tricks for Christ Jesus has won the battle over evil and I belong to Christ Jesus! Hallelujah!!! I too have thought about blocking some here, but what good would it do? They just go around the block to read what's posted, and we can do the same. With them posting in the Christian group, we can and must pray for them that the Truth posted/spoken here will remove the blindness within them. The Christian Documentary you speak of sounds interesting, and yes, I'll check it out. Wishing everyone a blessed Memorial Day weekend. Let us all take time to remember the true meaning behind this holiday! [Edited 5/27/2017 1:49:23 PM ]
6/17/2017 6:18:50 AM	Do As the Bereans Did Acts 17:11 and Practice Heb 13:1
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	https://bible.org/article/judgments-past-present-and-future http://www.desiringgod.org/messages/final-judgment http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1822.cfm
6/26/2017 9:41:58 PM	Do As the Bereans Did Acts 17:11 and Practice Heb 13:1
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	‘John Wesley once received a note which said, “The Lord has told me to tell you that He doesn’t need your book-learning, your Greek, and your Hebrew.” Wesley answered “Thank you, sir. Your letter was superfluous, however, as I already knew the Lord has no need for my ‘book-learning,’ as you put it. However—although the Lord has not directed me to say so—on my own responsibility I would like to say to you that the Lord does not need your ignorance, either.”
6/27/2017 9:07:28 PM	Do As the Bereans Did Acts 17:11 and Practice Heb 13:1
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 65, joined Feb. 2008	"Ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ." --St. Jerome "I would rather have compunction for my sins than to know the definition of compunction." --St. Thomas a Kempis Academic knowledge of the faith is important, but not THE most important thing. Those who have great knowledge should not be proud. Those who do not should not be envious (they can always learn more). The more knowledge one has the more that will be expected of him.
6/28/2017 9:07:58 AM	Do As the Bereans Did Acts 17:11 and Practice Heb 13:1
iam_resurrected Reno, NV 47, joined Jul. 2014	[Complete Jewish Bible--CJB] Hebrews 13:1 Let brotherly friendship continue CLV Let brotherly fondness be remaining. KJV Let brotherly love continue. was flipping around the many verses using the CJB and really am enjoying it's view. I am now a big fan of the KJV-CLV-CJB Acts 17:11 11 Now the people here were of nobler character than the ones in Thessalonica; they eagerly welcomed the message, checking the Tanakh every day to see if the things Sha'ul was saying were true. 11 Now these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, who receive the word with all eagerness, examining the scriptures day by day, to see if these have it thus." 11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
6/29/2017 11:13:01 AM	Do As the Bereans Did Acts 17:11 and Practice Heb 13:1
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	Thank you Lud and iam_resurrected. It is nice to see people getting excited about the Word of God and loving one another! I Corinthians 12:31 But earnestly desire the greater gifts. And I will show you a still more excellent way.
7/1/2017 11:26:16 AM	Do As the Bereans Did Acts 17:11 and Practice Heb 13:1
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	Back to showing that a_nubian's rationale for people being annihilated in the Lake of fire, the Gehenna of fire is not valid or Scriptural. In previous posts here & in the thread, 'Is Hell For All Eternity,' I already dealt with the term 'destroy' & what it actually meant in MANY passages in context, that it didn't mean annihilation or extinction but being brought to ruin or rendering something or someone useless to continuing to do what they previously did. Many more additional passages could be shown to confirm with the number of ones I have already shown. I have already shown the distinction between the fire in the physical realm being different than the fire in the spiritual realm; they are not the same. (2 different realms, 2 different effects) I have shown that the term, 'utterly destroyed' doesn't apply to AFTER one dies but only before one PHYSICALLY dies & that it is ALSO another 'emotionally laden' phrase to evoke erroneous teaching, like the original question. ('Why does God need to burn people 'Forever' for 20, 30, 70, etc. years of life? I want to know the rational for it.) I have also addressed the issue of Rev 20:10 & Jonah in Jonah 2:6 & have also addressed the use of forever in Deut 23:3. I have already dealt with Sodom & Gomorrah in previous posts as well. Did the righteous Judge of all the earth do right in His initial physical judgment of Sodom & Gomorrah? (Gen 18:23-25) Yes. Is the Righteous Judge of all the earth doing right in his present judgment & torments of those who died there & their immaterial souls/spirits are now in the temporary abode of the dead souls/spirits in Sheol/Hades (Ezek 16:48-50), like Dives the rich man of Luke 16? Yes. Rationale: the righteous saints are CONTINUING in THEIR torments AFTER PHYSICAL DEATH (beyond their earthly lives), from what the wicked did to them, looking forward to Jesus' righteous judgment, vengeance & repaying them. Jesus had to tell them TO REST again & be patient while they waited for it to come as other saints were experiencing the same thing. Revelation 6:9-11 And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld. 10And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy & true, until You judge those who live on the earth” & avenge our blood? Then each of them was given a white robe & told to rest a little while longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers, were killed, just as they had been killed. Even for the righteous, they experience their torments received from the wicked beyond their physical lives. So yes, eternal punishment & torment & anguish goes beyond physical death for the righteous as well as the unrighteous. It is only when the new heavens & earth come & the New Jerusalem that the righteous will no longer shed tears or suffer; only the unrighteous will experience that continuation in the lake of fire. Saul disturbed Samuel's rest in Sheol when God allowed Samuel to speak to Saul while he was in the spiritual realm, in Sheol. This was unique, not the norm but it again shows the righteous experience disruption of their resting after physical death & are CONSCIOUS & waiting until the final judgment. Is the Righteous & impartial Judge of all the earth doing right in his future judgment of these same people at the great white throne when they stand before Him in IMMORTAL, resurrected bodies re-united with their souls/spirits & are cast into the lake of fire, the Gehenna of fire, to be tormented day & night, for ever and ever? Yes. Can people experience torment day after day? Yes. Righteous Lot did. (2 Pet 2:6-8) Those who worship the beast & receive his mark will experience torment without rest day or night. Rev 14:9-11 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” Some try to say they are annihilated & it is only their smoke that rises for ever & ever. However, read it again! That is NOT what Scripture says there. The context then continues in the next verse that THEY The Time Frame, day after day, night after night, day & night that continues its duration (for ever & ever) simply means the time continues day after day, night after night. day or night; they refer to the same continuous duration. The additional time frame (not RESULT) is added for the unrighteous: this continuation continues day & night forever & ever. The righteous' joy & life continues day after day forever & ever. One assumes that the 'eternal' or ongoing fire--FROM the eternal GOD, who is consuming fire--that started in the physical realm when God physically 'destroyed this place' (Gen 19:12) has stopped. It hasn't. It has just changed its application from one realm (visible, physical) to another realm. (invisible, spiritual one) The eternal punishment didn't stop when God PHYSICALLY destroyed the mortal, corruptible bodies of the people & the cities of Sodom & Gomorrah & all they had built & possessed with fire & brimstone. That was only the beginning. God righteously & justly killed the bodies & burned the cities. But as Jesus taught, the souls were not killed along with their mortal bodies. The souls departed those burned bodies & were sent to Sheol/Hades in the invisible, spiritual realm. All through Scripture the prophets & the apostles & Christ repeatedly talk about Sodom & Gomorrah as a clarion warning to us all of the reality of eternal punishment. Death is NOT the opposite of eternal life. Eternal death is the opposite of eternal life. Physical death is the opposite of physical life. Rev 20:15 - Those wicked & unbelieving did NOT have eternal life; they were not found in the Lambs book of LIFE. They continued to experience eternal death. Only those who repent & believe in Christ have eternal life & their names are found in the Lamb's book of life. They have passed out of death & into life, transferred out of the kingdom of darkness & into the kingdom of God's Son, that kingdom of light & life. (to be continued with a bump)
7/1/2017 1:53:01 PM	Do As the Bereans Did Acts 17:11 and Practice Heb 13:1
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 65, joined Feb. 2008	Brashdoc's beliefs are in line with Catholic teaching on this one.
7/3/2017 12:06:48 PM	Do As the Bereans Did Acts 17:11 and Practice Heb 13:1
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	(continued) Gen 3:22 The LORD God said, "Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good & evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand & "take also of the tree of life & eat & live for ever..." Last argument & rationale for why the lost will not burn forever: 1. From the Tree of Life Adam & Eve could sustain eternal life. After the fall, they were denied access to the Tree of Life. (Gen 3:24) Logic would dictate then that all of Adam & Eve's descendants, prior to the Flood would not be allowed access to the Tree of Life. Without access to the Tree of Life all have died." 2. Access to the Tree of Life is made available for the righteous IN the New Jerusalem [out of heaven & onto the earth] (Rev 2:7 & 22:14) [WHEN the new heavens & earth exist.] Why the Lost Will Not Burn Forever 1. As you read the aforementioned verse, at the beginning of humanity's creation, eternal eternal life was connected to the Tree of Life. Once the Redeemed ARE IN HEAVEN they will be allowed to have access to the Tree of Life. That Tree of Life is located in God's Holy City, the New Jerusalem. 2. The Lost are on the outside of the Holy City. Therefore the Lost will Never have access to the Tree of Life. 3. If God said Adam & Eve had "taken also of the tree of life & eat & live for ever"; logic would dictate that the same would hold true for the Lost outside of the city. 4. Conclusion: this is why the Lake of Fire will Consume the Lost. Several points need to be made that 'destroys' ('renders useless) the above argument. 1. Scripture is understood in a spiritual sense through revelation & enlightenment by God, not understood in a humanistic logical sense through reasoning & worldly wisdom. (I Cor 2:1-16; I Cor 14:29-33; Lk 24:25-32,44-49; Jn 11:17-27; 14:18-29; 16:4-15, etc.) Jn 11:25,26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in Me, though he die, yet will he live & everyone who lives & believes in Me WILL NEVER DIE. Do you believe this?” "The Communists had their Manifesto. The Maoists had their Little Red Books. The Muslims have their Koran. But only the Bible contains the writings taught not by human wisdom but by the Spirit of God (1 Cor 2:13). Only the Bible reveals "what no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man conceived, what God has prepared for those who love him" (1 Cor 2:9). The Christian manual of operation is unique because it reveals "the things of the Spirit of God"—things from God that man can't find out on his own, things that are often very foreign to our way of thinking. And therein lies a great problem." John Piper (more thoughts: http://www.desiringgod.org/messages/how-the-spirit-helps-us-understand) Rev 20:6 Blessed & holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death HAS NO POWER OVER THEM. 2. The human logic of the above argument states that believers will not have access to the tree of life UNTIL the new heavens & new earth & when the New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven onto the earth. Therefore (conclusion) until THEN believers don't experience or have then unending spiritual life of God because they have not yet eaten from the Tree of Life. Is that Scriptural? NO! We don't wait until then to experience in a loving relationship the fellowship of God & His unending spiritual life. (here's a short excerpt from the website explanation on what is experiencing the unending life of God: http://www.awmi.net/reading/teaching-articles/eternal_life/ ) "He who has the Son HAS LIFE." "Someone might say, “Eternal life is living forever.” But that’s not it. No one ceases to exist when they die. Everyone lives forever in either heaven or hell. “Well then, eternal life must be living forever in heaven instead of hell.” That’s not it either. Eternal life is a present-tense possession. (Jn 3:36) It’s not something that begins when we get to heaven. There are many scriptures that speak of everlasting or non-ending Divine life as something we possess in this life & beyond (Jn 4:14; 5:24; 6:27; 6:40,47; I Jn 5:11-13). "So, the question remains, “What is everlasting life?” This is very important. John 3:16 says this is the reason why Jesus came [& died on a cross & rose again]. Many people have mistakenly thought that the goal of salvation is the forgiveness of sin to avoid hell. That’s not what John 3:16 is saying. If that’s all there is to salvation, that’s more than any of us deserve, and it would still be worth preaching. But salvation is much, much more than getting our sins forgiven so we can go to heaven instead of hell." "Let me say it this way. If all you did was ask Jesus to forgive your sins so you wouldn’t perish in hell, then you are missing out on eternal life. Sin was a barrier that stood between us & a holy God. It had to be removed. That’s exactly what Jesus did...Sin is no longer standing between God & man (2 Cor. 5:17). But to what does that entitle us, as believers? Sure, it entitles us to live forever with God...That’s wonderful. But there are tremendous benefits right here, right now, on earth. God's unending spiritual life is one of those benefits. Jesus defined eternal life for us in John 17:3. Eternal life is personally knowing God, [experiencing His unending life & having fellowship & a relationship with Him--Jn 14:7; I Jn 1:1-4, etc]." Many people believe Jesus died to forgive their sins, but they still don’t have a close, personal, intimate relationship with their Father God. They think that is reserved for heaven. They are content to muddle through life singing songs about how, when we all get to heaven, what a day that will be. That is not to take anything away from heaven, but we are supposed to have eternal life (close, intimate, personal relationship with God our Father and Jesus Christ His Son) right now. It’s not “pie in the sky by and by” but rather “steak on your plate while you wait.” Andrew Wommack Jesus never KNEW those who are the wicked, who don't believe in Him. He did not give them His life; they do not have nor have seen nor experienced the unending LIFE of God. They don't know the Son or the Father. They only have & will only experience unending spiritual death. (Mt 7:23; Lk 13:27; Mt 25:11-13, Jn 1:10; 3:36; 8:19,55; 15:21; 16:3 etc.) All people (believers & unbelievers will be resurrected in immortal bodies. Unbelievers in their immortal (existing unending) bodies will then face the great white throne judgment. Their souls/spirits still presently & consciously exist in Hades, as they are resting & waiting for the resurrection into new immortal (cannot corrupt or do away with) bodies & the judgment. You cannot bring to extinction or annihilation a body that is no longer corruptible and that continues unending. They KEY is in both words: ETERNAL AND LIFE. One speaks of duration, the other in God's gift to those who repent & believe in Christ. Job 13:6-12 "Please hear my argument And listen to the contentions of my lips. 7"Will you speak what is unjust for God, And speak what is deceitful for Him? 8"Will you show partiality for Him? Will you contend for God? Will it be well when He examines you? Or will you deceive Him as one deceives a man? "He will surely reprove you If you secretly show partiality. "Will not His majesty terrify you, And the dread of Him fall on you? "Your memorable sayings are proverbs of ashes, Your defenses are defenses of clay. (to be continued)
7/3/2017 5:53:50 PM	Do As the Bereans Did Acts 17:11 and Practice Heb 13:1
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 65, joined Feb. 2008	But the lost WILL burn forever. Jesus said so. See the parable of Lazarus and the ich man.
7/5/2017 1:53:41 PM	Do As the Bereans Did Acts 17:11 and Practice Heb 13:1
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	(continuing) Quote (Lud): "But the lost WILL burn forever. Jesus said so. See the parable of Lazarus and the rich man." You are good at stating something, Lud, but you don't know your Bible. Show me in any verse in the passage in Luke 16. of Lazarus & Dives, the certain rich man, that Jesus actually said that the lost will burn forever. Hades there is the temporary abode of the souls/spirits of people who have physically died. It is not the eternal abode, either for the righteous or unrighteous. I continue to show from Scripture that the argument that the lost will not burn forever is unscriptural in many ways. The lost will experience, without rest day or night for ever and ever punishment, shame, darkness, etc. That it describes this punishment, as including fire, is true but fire in the spiritual realm, after the resurrection, in the new heavens & earth is described DIFFERENTLY as to its effects than in the old physical realm. I first need to make some clarifications. First of all, the term, 'burn forever' is not used in Scripture for people but refers to God & His holy & righteous anger. The unrighteous will experience torments & shame & punishment & some of those will be LIKE FIRE that burns but a soul/spirit does not burn up like a fire that consumes a physical body or physical matter. Also the resurrected bodies of both the righteous & the unrighteous are immortal; they no longer are subject to corruption, decay nor will they turn back into dust if flames are experienced. They continue to last for ever & ever, unending spiritual bodies. There is no scriptural verses that uses that specific term, 'burn forever' concerning people. It is an inflammatory human term. If you can find any verse or verses that use this term, please let me know. Jer 17:4-6 U will let go of your inheritance which I gave U & I'll make U serve your enemies in a land that U don't know. For U HAVE MADE MY ANGER START TO BURN LIKE A FIRE THAT WILL NEVER BE PUT OUT [FOREVER]." Thus says the LORD, "Cursed is the man who trusts in mankind & makes flesh his strength & whose heart turns away from YHWH. For he will be like a bush in the desert & will not see when prosperity comes, but will live in stony wastes in the wilderness, a land of salt without inhabitant. Jer 15:14 I will make U serve your enemies in a land that U know nothing about. For MY ANGER IS LIKE A FIRE THAT WILL BURN against [upon] U." Psalm 89:45-48 You have covered him with shame. Selah. How long, O LORD, will this last? Will U remain HIDDEN FOREVER? Will Your ANGER CONTINUE TO BURN LIKE FIRE? Remember how short my span of life is! How empty & futile U have made this human existence. No man can live on without experiencing death, or deliver his soul from the power of Sheol. (Selah) Ps 79:4-7 We have become a reproach to our neighbors, a scoffing & derision to those around us. How long, O LORD? Will You be angry forever? Will Your jealousy burn like fire? Pour out Your wrath upon the nations which do not know You & upon the kingdoms which do not call upon Your name; for they have devoured Jacob & laid waste his habitation. Deut 29:20 "The LORD shall never be willing to forgive him, but rather the anger of the LORD & His jealousy will burn against that man & every curse which is written in this book will rest on him & YHWH will blot out his name from under heaven. Jer 21:12 O house of David, thus says YHWH: "Administer justice every morning; And deliver the person who has been robbed from the power of his oppressor, That My wrath may not go forth like fire And burn with none to extinguish it, Because of the evil of their deeds. Malachi 4:1,2 Look, because the day has come, burning like a furnace & all the proud & every wicked doer, will be stubble & the day that is coming will set them on fire," says the LORD Almighty. "Not a root or a branch will be left to them. Job 18:12-14 His strength is famished & calamity is ready at his side. His skin is devoured by disease, the firstborn of death [Targum: angel of death] will devour his strength. He is torn from the security of his tent & they march him before the king of terrors [ruler of the abode of the dead]. Job 15:21 "Sounds of terror are in his ears; while at peace--the Destroyer comes upon him. Jer 5:28,29 They are fat, they are sleek, They also excel in deeds of wickedness; They do not plead the cause, the cause of the orphan, that they may prosper n& they do not defend the rights of the poor. Shall I not punish these people?' declares YHWH. Isaiah 14:3 And it will be in the day when the LORD gives you rest from your pain & turmoil & harsh service in which you have been enslaved, The soul indeed thirsts, but not like the physical body thirsts. There are many more but I will stop here and allow these verses to be considered. I will then deal with Gen 3:22 on my next post, that will further render useless the argument that the lost will not suffer punishment day after day, night after night, day & night, etc. for ever and ever, unending but instead will be annihilated or completely destroyed or exterminated from existence. This cannot happen to a resurrected spiritual, immortal body of the lost nor can their soul/spirit be killed or destroyed by annihilation (as I have already proven by many verses, refuting those verses given as proof for this false assumption & conclusion. (to be continued)
7/6/2017 4:09:12 PM	Do As the Bereans Did Acts 17:11 and Practice Heb 13:1
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 65, joined Feb. 2008	Luke 16:19:26, part of the Lazarus-rich man parable, specifically says that Hell is forever. Also, the following passages say that Hell is forever: Isaiah 66:22-24, Daniel 12:1-2, Matthew 18:6-9, Matthew 25:31-46, Mark 9:42-48, 2 Thessalonians 1:5-18, Jude 7, Jude 13, Revelation 14:9-11, and Revelation 20:14-15. If Hell is only temporary, then it is not Hell, but Purgatory. Do you believe in Purgatory?
7/9/2017 6:12:33 PM	Do As the Bereans Did Acts 17:11 and Practice Heb 13:1
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	Quote: "Luke 16:19:26, part of the Lazarus-rich man parable, specifically says that Hell is forever. Also, the following passages say that Hell is forever: Isa 66:22-24, Dan 12:1-2, Mt 18:6-9, Mt 25:31-46, Mark 9:42-48, 2 Thess 1:5-18, Jude 1:7,13, Rev 14:9-11 & Rev 20:14-15. If Hell is only temporary, then it is not Hell, but Purgatory. Do you believe in Purgatory? Luke 16:19,26 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple & fine linen & fared sumptuously every day...And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Nowhere in these two passages you quote state that hell is forever. The intermediate hell mentioned here is Hades, synonymous with the OT intermediate state of hell called Sheol. The eternal place of hell is called the Gehenna of fire or the Lake of fire. That is the eternal place of hell where all resurrected unbelievers are cast into. Second, the issue I quoted you on was not that the eternal hell, Gehenna of fire or Lake of fire, the Second Death is eternal but the inflammatory statement of God needing to burn people forever. The phrase 'burning people forever' is not found in Scripture nor is it scriptural that God 'NEEDS' to burn people forever. That is attributing blasphemy to the holy, just & impartial judge of the whole earth. I think you agree that people are the ones that choose to disobey God & not believe Him. What they are judged for are their very own evil words & evil deeds. God only carries out the sentence & penalty for their own evil wrongdoing. Isa 66:22-24 Only vs 24 talks about fire not being quenched nor their worm dying concerning the bodies of those who live only for themselves & not God. This is after the new heaven & earth are brought into existence. It does NOT SAY they 'are burning forever' nor does it say 'their carcasses' are burned UP forever, only that the carcasses, the bodies of the resurrected unbelieving, living for themselves, don't decay anymore, so the symbolic expression is used that these bodies continue to experience the 2nd death without decaying, being annihilated or burned up. They in the spiritual realm, in the new heavens & earth, do experience 'spiritual' flames that can't be put out or the symbolic worms without dying on their bodies. Yet they don't have actual 'physical' worms eating away their immortal bodies. It is symbolic for 'like effects' but in a spiritual sense in the spiritual realm. Since these resurrected bodies in the new heavens & earth are immortal & are not subject to decay & turning back to dust, these flames are not like flames in the old physical earth. That they experience torment without decaying seems to be true. That they experience punishment & burning shame & regret & gnashing their teeth seems true. But burning in actual physical flames like in the old earth is just not what is described in the Bible. One experiences the 'effect' like flames in various ways in the OT, which I have repeatedly shown in other posts & threads. Daniel 12:2 Talks about some being resurrected to everlasting shame, disgrace & contempt. No burning forever is mentioned here. But there are 'painful effects' experienced: everlasting shame, everlasting disgrace, evelasting contempt. Mt 18:9-6 talks about the contrast of the consequences of offending innocent people & living a sinful lifestyle vs. those that will enter into life. The offenders of God do NOT, after they have died, enter into life, the life of God, in His kingdom; they are spiritually dead. Their destination is described as being cast into the eternal fire, the Gehenna of fire. The context goes through vs 14, talking about those who 'perish' or are destroyed but not in a physical sense of annihilation but in a spiritual sense of well being. Is there an actual physical lake of fire in the spiritual realm, where spiritual beings such as demonic spirits are cast into or resurrected spiritual bodies of unbelievers are cast into? No. It is not a physical lake but a spiritual place where the spiritual effects or torments are like or similar to the effects of flames in a physical world. There is suffering, experiencing various pains. There are many examples I have already shared but this one seems to show how it applies. Rom 12:18-21 If it is possible on your part, live at peace with everyone. Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but leave room for God’s wrath. For it is written: “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” On the contrary, “If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him a drink. For in so doing, you will heap burning coals on his head.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. When you treat your enemies with kindness when they treat you harshly, it is LIKE HEAPING BURNING COALS UPON THEIR HEADS! They REALLY DO EXPERIENCE A BURNING FOR SURE. Since no real burning coals are placed on their head & burning, how is the EFFECTS of kind acts then, acting like burning coals, on an avowed enemy, when he is treating you harshly & bringing pain into your life? When you can answer this question, you can understand the flame-like effects experienced by the unbelievers in the Gehenna of fire, the Lake of fire--in immortal bodies--in the spiritual realm. They have chosen to exist spiritually dead apart from God in their trespasses & sins. So God gives them their wish & just penalty for what they have said, done & not done. Mark 9:42-48 This is a similar passage to the Mt 18 one & it quotes Is 66:24. Here is mentions the eternal hell or Gehenna that has a fire that does not end, so it shows the duration of this fire as not stopping or ongoing. However, Jesus gives another illustration that is used in this passage to describe this type of fire in the spiritual realm after the resurrection & judgment of unbelievers. He says, everyone will be 'salted with fire.' By putting salt on a wound, the pain experienced is 'LIKE FIRE' in its effects but it is not actually 'flaming up in flames' when the salt is applied. It is symbolic again of the 'effects' that feel like fire burning. Also it shows what 'destroy' actually means as well. It doesn't mean annihilation but loss of well being. If salt loses its saltiness, what good is it? It's been rendered useless; losing the effectiveness it once had. usefulness it once had. Again if you can understand this illustration of Jesus, you will again be growing in spiritual understanding of the 'flame-like effects' the unbelieving will be experiencing in the spiritual realm in immortal spiritual bodies. 2 Thess 1:5-18 Here is another obvious contrast between the righteous & the wicked. Is God just & fair & impartial & holy & righteous to give us everlasting life in His presence--in light of our mere short-term, only 70 years or less of existence on this earth--in our temporary sufferings, trials & persecutions at the hands of evil doers? Yes he is. Is God any less the same things for giving eternal punishment to those wicked evildoers who caused all this suffering over & over again to people & to God Himself on this earth? Yes He is. People choose this. (continued)
7/9/2017 6:13:24 PM	Do As the Bereans Did Acts 17:11 and Practice Heb 13:1
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	They chose to follow Satan & his demonic forces instead of God. They chose to disobey & harm others. They chose to take away the very precious lives of people, who suffer their whole life because of this tremendous loss. How can you measure this loss? Is the punishment just. Yes. They have defied the Holy God, saying He will not repay, He doesn't see, there will be no accounting for the evil we have done. Jesus said He 'never knew' these people. They were not God's children but children of the devil, following Him. They will experience the same eternal punishment that the one they follow experiences. Demonic spiritual beings & resurrected spiritual unbelieving beings will experience the same everlasting punishment. God 'will pay back trouble to those who trouble you.' It doesn't say here either that 'God needs to burn people forever.' Instead, it says, "He will punish those who do not know God & do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction & shut out from the presence of the Lord & from the glory of His might." God makes us worthy of His calling on this time on this earth for eternity. Unbelievers also make themselves worthy of His eternal punishment because of their evil time on this earth. God is impartial & just & holy & true in both of these. Jude 1:7,13 Just as Sodom & Gomorrha & the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication & going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever. This passage again shows some contrasts. How is the fire described as eternal for those who were consumed by physical fire in their mortal bodies & dwellings & cities? Those were all burned up at that time in history & turned to ashes & lava rock. Is God going to take those ashes & lava rock & keep them for eternity? Obviously not. A person is NOT their body; the person (soul/spirit) is HOUSED in a temporary tent or outer dwelling. It won't last. It is mortal. So if someone wanted to believe in annihilation, this would supposedly be it. If a person is only their mortal body & all that a person is, is that body, when it dies & goes to dust in the flames, that is it; they are no more. But that is NOT what Scripture teaches about those who died in Sodom & Gomorrah. The unending soul/spirit of each person killed there continues on after physical death in Sheol/Hades/intermediate hell for the unbelieving, waiting until the resurrection of the immortal bodies to be judged, so they can be re-united with these new immoral spiritual bodies fit for dwelling in the new heavens & earth. Thus the EFFECTS of the physical fire experienced in the physical realm continues into the spiritual realm but with different effects since it can't burn UP these new bodies like the old ones & turn them to ash. Suffering, shame & darkness will be experienced for spiritual beings in immortal spiritual bodies. The two passages in Revelation, 14:9-11 & Rev 20:14-15 talk about being cast into the Lake of fire (& brimstone), the Second Death. Only the first one talks about suffering the torments of eternal fire. Again consider how fire torments someone in the physical realm & then how can God's quenchless fire torment someone in the spiritual realm. The torments in both are real, but the effects are different in each realm. No. I don't believe any of the prophets nor apostles nor Christ taught there is a purgatory; it is an unscriptural, man-made doctrine. Even the great theologian, Thomas Aquinas admitted this as well as a number of Catholic apologists today. The only passage some Catholics twist to try & make purgatory is I Cor 3:10-15. However, the context destroys this false teaching of purgatory. This is standing BEFORE the judgment or 'bema' seat of Christ ALREADY. There is no time for a purgatory, the judgment has ALREADY COME as you stand before Christ. This alone destroys this false teaching of man & the Catholic magesterium's private interpretation. All go to one place, Sheol/Hades then are judged. Eccl 3:20 All go to the same place. All came from the dust & all return to the dust. Gen 37:35 "Surely I will go down to Sheol in mourning for my son." Eccl 6:6 Even though he should live a thousand years twice over, yet enjoy no good—do not all go to the one place? Eccl 9:2,3,10 It is the same for all. There is one fate for the righteous & for the wicked; for the good, for the clean & for the unclean; for the man who offers a sacrifice and for the one who does not sacrifice. As the good man is, so is the sinner; as the swearer is, so is the one who is afraid to swear. 3This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that there is one fate for all men. Furthermore, the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil and insanity is in their hearts throughout their lives. Afterwards they go to [realm of] the dead. [Sheol] Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going. Isa 38:10,18 I said, "In the middle of my life I am to enter the gates of Sheol; I am to be deprived of the rest of my years.For Sheol cannot thank You, Death cannot praise You; Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Your faithfulness." Job 30:23 I know you will bring me down to death, to the place appointed for all living. Job 3:5.11,19 "Let darkness & the shadow of death stain it. "Why did I not die from the womb? Why did I not give up the spirit when my mother bore me? The small & the great are there; the slave is free from his master." Isa 5:14-16 Therefore Sheol has enlarged its throat & opened its mouth without measure; And Jerusalem's splendor, her multitude, her din of revelry & the jubilant within her, descend into it. So the common man will be humbled & the man of importance abased, the eyes of the proud also will be abased. But YHWH of hosts will be exalted in judgment, And the holy God will show Himself holy in righteousness. Isa 14:9 "Sheol from beneath is excited over you to meet you when you come; It arouses for you the spirits of the dead, all the leaders of the earth." Ps 55:15 Let death come upon them quickly & they shall descend alive to Sheol because evil is within them.
7/9/2017 7:37:49 PM	Do As the Bereans Did Acts 17:11 and Practice Heb 13:1
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 65, joined Feb. 2008	The passages I quoted all prove that Hell is eternal. If there is a gulg that seperates the rich man from Heaven which he cannot cross, that obviously means he is in Hell forever.
7/9/2017 9:27:45 PM	Do As the Bereans Did Acts 17:11 and Practice Heb 13:1
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	I must admit Lud, the Catholic Catechism is very confusing on the issue of hell, and most Catholic theologians agree with me. When I go to the Catholic Answers website this is some of the confusing definitions. Let’s start by defining what Catholics mean by hell. The Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) offers the following explanation: We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves . . . To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him forever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell." (CCC 1033) So the first definition says 'hell' is a STATE OF BEING--separated from God & the blessed, not a place one goes to after one dies. The writer then states: This definition presumes what Christians—indeed, most anyone who believes in God—agree on: that the true life & happiness for which we were created can be found only in God’s presence. Separation from God means the loss of that life & happiness & thus results in suffering. This is one reason why hell is ALWAYS DEPICTED AS A PLACE--of torment. There lies the great confusion: first hell is STATE OF BEING; now hell is 'ALWAYS A PLACE. It cannot be a state of being and at the same time be a place the unbelieving find themselves in. Then the writer explains further that 'HELL IS A CHOICE.' Now we have 3 DIFFERENT definitions for hell. Which one is it really? Such is the confusion of Catholic dogma. Then to bring even greater confusion, the writer continues to state: "God did not create hell so much as he allowed for its possibility." Did God create hell or didn't He? Apparently, according to Catholic dogma, God didn't create hell but simply left the possibility for someone to choose the state of being they define as hell by choosing separation from God's Presence through committing mortal sin. Apparently people don't go to hell, a place, but simply exist in a state of being. Yet then the writer quotes again! "God predestines no one TO GO TO HELL... (CCC 1037) Now hell is not a state of being but once again is a PLACE ONE CAN ACTUALLY GO TO, although God doesn't predestinate anyone to GO THERE. My head is spinning round & round now in its confusion. This is like someone sitting on the fence, saying first it is this and then saying no, it is now this, back & forth. First its a state of being, then it is a place one goes to, then it is neither of these but it is a choice one makes. Then he writes the following. To sum up: "Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire." The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs. (CCC 1035) NOW I am totally drowning in confusion! Hell was originally defined as a state of being, being separated from God. Here this state is now defined as the state of mortal sin. Then it switches & continues to once again refefine hell as a PLACE one descends INTO. In this place one descends into, now called hell, there people suffer the punishments of hell, defined as 'eternal fire.' Yet in the very next sentence it states the 'chief' punishment is not eternal fire but eternal separation from God. This is truly a form of doublemindedness or triple mindedness or quadruple mindedness. James 1:5-7 If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you. 6But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. 7That person should not expect to receive anything from the Lord. 8Such a person is double-minded and unstable in all they do. I Cor 14:33 For God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.
7/9/2017 10:56:09 PM	Do As the Bereans Did Acts 17:11 and Practice Heb 13:1
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 65, joined Feb. 2008	Catholic theologians have always been divided as to whether Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory are actual places, or merely states of being. I tend to the former position myself but that is just an opinion. If they are actual places that doesn't mean that they aren't states of being as well---jails, hospitals, mansions, Cadillacs---when one is in one of these one is both in a place and a state of being. In a theater, restaurant, bar, home, playground---the place makes the state of being. But the notion of Hell for eternity---actual place or state of being---that is a bedrock Catholic doctrine. If a Catholic denies this doctrine he is guilty of heresy. To your credit, Brashdoc, you research the fathers of the Church---you might check Origen, and find out why Origen was never declared a saint.
7/15/2017 12:46:24 PM	Do As the Bereans Did Acts 17:11 and Practice Heb 13:1
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	Thanks for your opinion & clarifications, Lud. What helps to clear up the misconception of state of being vs place is that the Scripture defines the state of being of a person or human as either lost or saved; the spiritual state. Heaven & hell are the places one goes to or enters into or cast into, DEPENDING on one's state of being--those saved by repentance & faith become spiritually born again & are redeemed by the precious blood of the promised Messiah, enter into the manifested presence of God. Those that remain in a spiritually dead & lost condition, who fall short of the glory of God & don't have their names written in the Lamb's book of life, enter into the Gehenna of fire, the Lake of fire, the Second Death, the eternal hell. Heaven is where God dwells, His throne is there. It is a definite place in the spiritual realm. Heaven is NOT a state of being, although ideas of feeling 'heavenly' are simply metaphorical in trying to describe what it is LIKE 'IN HEAVEN,' not heaven itself. The same is true for hell. It is a place where the unsaved & lost will go after being judged. I will not get into the various places that the term hell covers (sheol, hades, tartarus, the pit, lower parts of the earth, etc.) nor what hell is LIKE, as I have done that extensively already in numerous threads & posts. Getting back to a_nubian's final point of his incorrect phraseology & conclusion that people won't burn for eternity, that they are annihilated & that is the Gen 3:22 passage. Gen 3:22-24 YAHWEH ELOHIM said, “Look, the man has become like one of us knowing good & evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand & take also of the tree of life, eat & live forever” therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken. He drove out the man & at the east of the garden of Eden He placed the cherubim & a flaming sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life. https://bible.org/seriespage/4-fall-man-genesis-31-24 Bob Deffinbaugh If the fall of man were to have occurred in our times, one can hardly conceive of the consequences. I would imagine that the American Civil Liberties Union would immediately file suit—against God and in defense of Eve and her husband (the order of the two is not accidental), Adam. The suit would probably be pressed on the grounds of an illegal eviction. “And after all,” we would be told, “this alleged sinful act was performed in the privacy of the garden, and by two consenting adults.” But most of all we would be told that the crime (if indeed there was one) and the punishment were totally out of proportion. Could God really be serious in what this account claims to report? Because of a mere bite of some ‘forbidden fruit’ the man and woman are evicted and will suffer a lifetime of consequence? And more than this, that due to this one act the whole world and all mankind continue to suffer the evils about us? Those who do not take the Bible seriously or literally have little difficulty here. They simply write off the third chapter of Genesis as a myth. To them it is merely a symbolic story which endeavors to account for things as they are. The details of the fall present no problems for they are not fact, but fiction. Christians have tended to console themselves with the reminder: the fall was long ago & far away, so we do not tend to face the issues that glare at us from this passage. Why did Adam get the blame when Eve did all the talking? Furthermore, we must give thought to the severity of the consequences of man’s partaking of the forbidden fruit in the light of what seems, at first TO US, to be a trifling matter. What was so evil about THIS SIN that brought about such a harsh response from God & such horrible, immediate consequences & such impact from lasting punishments? In Genesis ch. 1 & 2 we read of a perfect creation which received God’s approval as being ‘good’ (1:10,12,18,21). In ch. 4 we find jealousy & murder. In the following chapters mankind goes from bad to worse. WOW! WHAT HAPPENED? Genesis 3 answers this question. It is vital because it explains the world & society as we observe it today. It challenges us to consider whether or not we continue to ‘fall’ as did Adam & his wife. It does depict the entrance of sin into the human race & the severity of the consequences of man’s disobedience. But beyond man’s sinfulness & the just penalties, there is the revelation of the grace of God. He seeks out the sinner & provides him with a covering for sin. He promises a Savior through whom this whole tragic event will turn into triumph & salvation. The serpent suddenly appears in verse one rudely and without introduction. Adam, Eve & the garden we are prepared to find, for we've already seen them. The serpent is said to be one of God’s creatures, therefore, we must take this creature literally. While it was an actual snake, later revelation informs us that the beast was being used by Satan, who is described as a dragon & serpent from of old (cf. II Cor 11:3; Rev 12:9; 20:2). We may wish to know answers to questions pertaining to evil's origin, but Moses had no intention of supplying them here. The point God wishes to make is we are sinful. To pursue more distant causes removes our responsibility for sin from the focus of our attention. Notice especially the approach which Satan takes here. He does not come as an atheist, or as one who would initially challenge Eve’s faith in God. Very often it is as an “angel of light” (II Cor 11:14). Satan often stands behind the pulpit, holding a Bible in his hand. The wording of Satan’s inquiry is significant. The word ‘indeed’ (verse 1) is dripping with innuendo. The effect of it is this: “Surely God could not have said this, could He?” Also the word God (“Has God said,” (verse 1) is interesting. Moses has been using the expression “the LORD God,” Yahweh Elohim: “Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made” (Gen 3:1). But when Satan referred to the Lord God it was merely God. This omission is indicative of Satan’s rebellious attitude toward almighty God. Satan’s initial approach is to deceive, not deny; to cause doubts, not disobedience. Satan came to Eve as an inquirer. He deliberately distorted the command of God, but in such a way as to imply, “I may be wrong here, so correct me if I am mistaken.” Now Eve should have never begun this conversation. It was a complete overturn of God’s chain of authority. That chain was Adam, Eve, creature. Adam & Eve were to express God’s rule over His creation (1:26). Eve would no doubt have rebuked such a conversation if it were not for the manner in which it was initiated by Satan. Had Satan begun to challenge the rule of God or Eve’s faith in Him, her choice would have been an easy one. But Satan erroneously stated God’s command. He stated the question so as to appear that he was misinformed & needed to be corrected. Few of us can avoid the temptation of telling another that they are wrong. And wonder of wonders, Eve has begun to walk the path of disobedience while supposing that she was defending God to the serpent. (to be continued) [Edited 7/15/2017 12:47:09 PM ]
7/15/2017 12:57:26 PM	Do As the Bereans Did Acts 17:11 and Practice Heb 13:1
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	Did you notice that Satan has not mentioned either the tree of life or the tree of the knowledge of good & evil? What a subtle attack! His question brought the forbidden tree to the center of Eve’s thinking, but without any mention of it. She brought it up. By his question Satan not only engaged Eve in dialogue, but he has also taken her eyes off of the generous provisions of God & caused her to think only of God’s prohibition. Satan does not wish us to ponder the grace of God, but to grudgingly meditate upon His denials. And this is precisely what has imperceptibly taken place in Eve’s thinking. Eve has revealed her change of attitude by several ‘Freudian slips.’ While God said, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely” (2:16), Eve said, “From the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat” (3:2). Eve omitted “any” & “freely,” the two words which emphasized the generosity of God. Likewise Eve had a distorted impression of the severity of God in prohibiting the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good & evil. She expressed God’s instruction in these words: “You will not eat from it or touch it, lest you die” (3:3). But God had said, “But from the tree of the knowledge of good & evil you will not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die” (2:17). ('in dying U will die') While exaggerating the prohibition to the point where even touching the tree was evil, Eve had unconsciously downplayed the judgment of God by omitting the word ‘surely’ & by failing to report that death would come on the day of the offense. In other words, Eve emphasized God’s severity, but underestimated the fact that judgment would be executed SURELY [definitely] & start (as) soon (as the forbidden fruit was eaten). Satan’s first attack on the woman was that of a religious seeker, in an effort to create doubts about the goodness of God & to fix her attention on what was forbidden as opposed to all that was freely given. The 2nd attack is bold & daring. Now in place of deception & doubt there is denial & 'the lie', followed by the slander of God’s character: “And the serpent said to the woman, ‘You surely will not die!’” (Gen 3:4). [The father of lies told the biggest lie in recorded history & mankind has been believing 'THE LIE' ever since. We may wonder at Satan’s dogmatic denial, but it is my opinion that this is precisely what weakened Eve’s opposition. How could anyone be wrong who was so certain? Many today, my friend, are convinced more of the dogmatic tone of a teacher than they are by the doctrinal truthfulness of his teaching. Dogmatism is no assurance of doctrinal accuracy. Satan’s fatal blow is recorded in vs 5: “For God knows that in the day U eat from it your eyes will be opened & U will be like God, knowing good & evil” (Gen 3:5). Many have tried to determine precisely what Satan is offering in vs 5. “Your eyes will be opened,” Satan assures them. In other words, they are living in a state of incompletion, of inadequacy. But once the fruit is eaten, they would enter into a new & higher level of existence: they would become “like God.” [They would be able then to determine, by themselves, what is good & what is evil, measuring by their own standards, not Gods.] As I understand Satan’s assertion, it is deliberately elusive & vague. This would stimulate the curiosity of Eve. To know ‘good AND evil’ may be to know everything. But how could Eve possibly grasp the specifics of the offer when she did not know what ‘evil’ was. Satan, I believe, leaves Eve with her thoughts at this point. His destructive seeds have been planted. While she has not yet eaten the fruit, she has already begun to fall. She has entered into a dialogue with Satan & now she is entertaining blasphemous thoughts about God’s character. She is seriously contemplating disobedience. Sin is not instantaneous, but sequential (James 1:13-15) & Eve is well on her way. Notice that the tree of life is not even mentioned or considered. Here before Eve were the two trees, the tree of life & the tree of the knowledge of good & evil. Seemingly it was not a choice between the one or the other. She only saw the forbidden fruit. It, alone, appeared to be ‘good for food & a delight to the eyes’ (vs 6) Yet in 2:9 we were told that all the trees had these features in common. But Eve had eyes only for what was forbidden. And this tree offered some mysterious quality of life (& wisdom like God's) which appealed to the woman. Satan lied outright in assuring Eve she would not die, but he simply failed to tell her the fine print in his promise of what the forbidden fruit would offer. Having studied that tree for some time (I would imagine), she finally determined that the benefits were too great to pass up on & the consequences were unreasonable & therefore unlikely. The time became ripe & with Adam with her, she ate of the fruit & gave some to Adam & he also ate. I can well imagine Adam would want to know two things. First, does she feel any better—that is, did the fruit have any beneficial effect on her. Secondly, did it have any detrimental effect. After all, God had said that they would die that very day. Had she found the fruit pleasurable & as yet sensed no immediate harmful effect or suddenly died, Adam would surely be inclined to follow his wife’s example. What a tragic error! Verses 7 & 8 are particularly informative, because they instruct us that sin has its consequences as well as its punishment. God has not yet prescribed any punishment for the sins of Adam & Eve & yet the consequences are inseparably coupled with the crime. The consequences of sin mentioned here are shame & separation. The nakedness which Adam & Eve shared without guilt was now a source of shame. Sweet innocence was lost forever. Remember, there was no man in the garden but the two of them. But they were ashamed to face each other without clothing. Not only could they not face each other as they had before, but they dreaded facing God. When He came to have sweet fellowship with them, they HID themselves in FEAR. God had said that they would die in the day that they ate the forbidden fruit. Some have puzzled over this promise of judgment. While the process of physical death began on that fateful day, they did not die physically THAT DAY. [But God doesn't lie; they died THAT VERY DAY--SPIRITUALLY.] Let us recall that spiritual death is separation from God: And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power (II Thess 1:9). Isn’t it amazing that the spiritual death of Adam & Eve occurred immediately—that is, there was now a spiritual separation from God. And this separation was not one imposed by God; it was initiated by men. Physical separation from God came later. (to be continued)
7/19/2017 5:28:29 PM	Do As the Bereans Did Acts 17:11 and Practice Heb 13:1
prophetic774 Winter Haven, FL 67, joined Feb. 2011	JESUS SAYS, "MY MOTHER AND BROTHERS ARE THOSE WHO HEARS GOD'S WORD AND PUTS IT INTO PRACTICE!" {Luke 8:21} Psalm 119 has 176 verses praising the Word of God. The Old Testament had 613 laws and the New Covenant of Jesus and His love has about 400 commands which Psalm 119 also applies to. Some of my favorite verses is Psalm 119 are: 119:105: Your Word is a Lamp to my feet and a Light for my path. 119:97: Oh how I love your law, I meditate on it all day long. 119:148: My eyes stay open through the watches of the night, that I meditate on your promises. 119:164: Seven times a day I praise you for your righteous laws. 119:16: All your Words are true; all your righteous laws are eternal. 119:169: Give me understanding according to your Word. 119:2: Blessed are those who keep His statues and seek Him with all your heart. 119:11: I have hidden your Word in my heart that I might not sin against You. 119:28: Strengthen me according to your Word. Deut 18:17-19: The Lord says, "I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put My words in His mouth, and He will tell them everything I command Him. If anyone does not listen to My words that the Prophet speaks in My Name, I Myself will call Him to account." John 14:23,24: Jesus says, "If anyone loves Me, He will OBEY MY TEACHING! My Father will love Him, and we will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me will not obey My teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent Me." Revelation 1:1-3: The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants what must take place. He made it known by sending His angel to His servant John, who testifies to everything he saw--that is, the WORD OF GOD and the testimony of Jesus Christ. Blessed is the one who reads the WORDS OF THIS PROPHECY, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it!! Revelation 22:16,18,19: "I, Jesus. have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the Churches.... I warn everyone who hears the WORDS OF THE PROPHECY OF THIS BOOK: If anyone ADDS anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this Book {Including ETERNAL HELL} And if anyone TAKES WORDS AWAY** from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the Tree of Life and in the Holy City {The New Jerusalem}, which are described in this book." THE GREAT COMMISSION: Matthew 28:18-20: Jesus says, “All authority in heaven and on EARTH has been given to Me {Not some RC Pope}. Therefore go and make disciples of ALL NATIONS...teaching them to OBEY EVERYTHING* I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very END OF THE AGE!” I Peter 1:23-25: You have been BORN AGAIN THROUGH THE LIVING AND ENDURING WORD OF GOD!! All men are like grass, and all their glory is like the flowers of the field, the grass withers and the flowers fall, but the WORD OF THE LORD STANDS FOREVER. And this is the WORD that was preached to you. Matthew 24:35: Jesus says, Heaven and earth will pass away, but MY WORDS WILL NEVER PASS AWAY!" I John 2:3-5: We know we have come to know Him {Jesus} if we obey His commands. The man who says, "I know Him," but does not do what He commands is a liar and the truth is not in him. But if anyone OBEYS HIS WORD, God's love is truly made complete in him! Matthew 4:4: Jesus says, "Man does not live on bread alone, but on EVERY WORD FROM THE MOUTH OF GOD!" Matthew 7:24,26: Jesus says, "Everyone who hears these WORDS OF MINE and PUTS THEM INTO PRACTICE is like a wise man who built his house on a Rock... But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand." Luke 8:21: Jesus says, "My mother and brothers are those who hears GOD'S WORD and PUTS THEM INTO PRACTICE!" James 1:22,25: Do not merely listen to the WORD, and so deceive yourselves. DO WHAT IT SAYS... The man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, BUT DOING IT, he will be blessed in what he does. Matthew 13:23: Jesus says, "But the one who received the seed that fell on good soil is the man who hears the WORD AND UNDERSTANDS IT. He produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown." John 15:1,2,5,16: Jesus says, "I am the True Vine and my Father is the Gardener. He cuts off every branch in Me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit He prunes so that it will be even more fruitful!... This is to my Father's glory that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be My disciples!... You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit--fruit that will last!" Luke 8:15: Jesus says, "But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the WORD, retain it, and by perseverance produce a crop." John 17:17: Jesus prays to His Father, "Sanctify them by the Truth, YOUR WORD IS TRUTH!" Acts 20:32: Paul says, "Now I commit you to God and to the WORD OF HIS GRACE, which can build you up and give you an inheritance among all those who are sanctified!" Romans 10:17: Consequently, FAITH COMES FROM HEARING THE MESSAGE, and the message is heard THROUGH THE WORD OF CHRIST! James 1:18; He chose to give us BIRTH THROUGH THE WORD of Truth!! I Corinthians 15:2: By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the WORD preached to you. Otherwise you have believed in vain! 2 Corinthians 2:17: Unlike so many, we do not peddle the WORD OF GOD for profit! 2 Corinthians 4:2: We do not use deception, nor do we distort the WORD OF GOD! Ephesians 1:`13: You also were included in Christ WHEN you heard the WORD of Truth, the gospel of your salvation. Ephesians 2:17: Take the sword of the Spirit, which is the WORD OF GOD! Colossians 1:25: I have become its servant by the commission God gave to me to present to you the WORD OF GOD IN ALL ITS FULLNESS! Colossians 3:16: Let the WORD OF CHRIST dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom! I Thessalonians 2:13: We thank God continually because, when you received the WORD OF GOD, which you heard from us, you received it not as the word of men, but as it actually is, the WORD OF GOD! 2 Timothy 2:15: Do your best to present yourselves to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who CORRECTLY HANDLES THE WORD of truth! 2 Timothy 3:15,16: 4:1,2: You have known the HOLY SCRIPTURES,which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. ALL SCRIPTURE IS GOD-BREATHED and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of His appearing and His kingdom, I give you this charge: PREACH THE WORD!! {WHICH IS THE ENTIRE NEW COVENANT AND NEW TESTAMENT**!!}
7/19/2017 9:20:48 PM	Do As the Bereans Did Acts 17:11 and Practice Heb 13:1
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	TY, prophetic, for showing the importance of not only knowing but putting into practice the Word of God. The topic though is more on nobly searching the Scriptures to show that annihilation is not a biblical teaching but a man-made one. People will suffer punishment without end in the Gehenna of fire, the Lake of fire, the hell of fire, the Second Death. I will continue my thoughts on Genesis 3 by Bob Deffinbaugh, culminating in showing how Gen 3:22 is talking about God not wanting Adam & Eve to partake of the tree of life and end up living forever in a state of SPIRITUAL DEATH WITH NO REMEDY. God's plan was to bring the Messiah into the world as a man, so that people might repent & believe in Him and receive as a gift the LIFE OF GOD that is unending. People could then be regenerated, MADE ALIVE when their state of being under sins is SPIRITUALLY DEAD & LOST with no hope in this world. continuing & concluding on Genesis 3-- I must digress to say that the spiritual death experienced by Adam & his wife is the same as that of today. It is the alienation of man from God. And it is that which man himself chooses. It is his preference, [asserting his independence from God & relying upon his own wisdom & the humanistic reasoning that God's consequences & punishments for sin are unreasonable & they haven't offended God by wrongdoing]. Hell is God’s giving men both what they want & prefer & what they deserve (cf. Rev 16:5-6). The separation which Adam and Eve brought about is that which God seeks to bridge. God sought out man in the garden. While Satan’s question was designed to bring about the fall of man, God’s questions seek his reconciliation and restoration. Notice that no questions are asked of the serpent. There is no intention of restoration for Satan. His doom is sealed. Take note also of the order or sequence here. The fall was in this order: serpent, Eve, Adam. This is the opposite of God’s chain of command. While God questioned in the order of authority (Adam, Eve, snake), He sentenced in the order of the fall (snake, Eve, Adam). The fall was, in part, the result of the reversal of God’s order. Adam is first sought by God with the question, “where are you?” (vs 9). Adam reluctantly admitted his shame & fear, probably hoping that God would not press him on this issue. But God probed more deeply, seeking an admission of wrongdoing: “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?” (vs 11). Thrusting at least a part of the responsibility back upon the Creator, Adam blurted out, “The woman whom Thou gavest to be with me, she gave me from the tree & I ate” (vs 12). Both Eve and God must share in the responsibility for the fall, Adam implied. His part was mentioned last & with as little detail as possible. And so it will always be with those who are guilty. We always find mitigating circumstances. All the ways of a man are clean in his own sight, but the Lord weighs the motives (Proverbs 16:2). Then Eve is questioned, “What is this you have done?” (verse 13). Her response was little different (in essence) than her husband’s: “The serpent deceived me, and I ate” (verse 13). It was true, of course. The serpent did deceive her (I Timothy 2:14), and she did eat. The guilt of both, while a feeble effort to excuse or at least diminish human responsibility was made, had been clearly established. Such must always be the case, I believe. Before punishment can be meted out, the wrong-doing must be proven and acknowledged. Otherwise punishment will not have its corrective effect on the guilty. The penalties are now prescribed by God, given in the order of the events of the fall. The Serpent Sentenced (vss. 14-15) The serpent is first addressed and his punishment established. The creature, as the instrument of Satan, is cursed and subject to an existence of humiliation, crawling in the dust (verse 14). Verse 15 addresses the serpent behind the serpent, Satan, the deadly dragon: “And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; … ” (Rev 12:9). There is to be, first of all, a personal animosity between Eve and the serpent: “And I will put enmity between you and the woman” (verse 15). Such enmity is easy to comprehend. But this opposition will broaden: “And between your seed and her seed” (verse 15). Here, I believe God refers to the battle of the centuries between the people of God and the followers of the devil (cf. John 8:44ff). Finally, there is the personal confrontation between the seed58 of Eve, the Messiah, and Satan: “He shall bruise you on the head, and you shall bruise him on the heel” (verse 15). In this confrontation Satan will be mortally wounded while the Messiah will receive a painful, but not fatal wound. How beautifully this prophecy portrays the coming Savior, Who will reverse the events of the fall. This is that of which Paul wrote in retrospect in the fifth chapter of Romans: (to be continued)
7/19/2017 10:17:00 PM	Do As the Bereans Did Acts 17:11 and Practice Heb 13:1
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of Adam’s offense, who is a type of Him who was to come. But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. And the gift is not like that which came through the 1 who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from 1 transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. For if by the transgression of the 1, death reigned through the 1, much more those who receive the abundance of grace & of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ (Rom 5:14-17). While the prophecy of vs 15 is somewhat veiled, it becomes more & more evident in the light of subsequent revelation. It comes as little surprise, then, to learn that the Jews, according to the Targum, regarded this passage as Messianic. It is only fitting that since Satan attacked mankind through the woman that God would bring about man’s salvation & Satan’s destruction through her. This has already been revealed to Satan in vs 15. Every child born to woman must have troubled Satan. While salvation would come through the birth of a child, it would not be a painless process. Woman’s sentence comes at the center of her existence. It deals with the bearing of her children. But in the midst of her labor pains she could know that God’s purpose for her was being realized & that, perhaps, the Messiah would be born through her. In addition to labor pains, the woman’s relationship to her husband was prescribed. Adam should have led & Eve should have followed. But such was not the case in the fall. Therefore, from this time on women were to be ruled by men: “Yet your desire shall be for your husband & he shall rule over you” (vs 16). Several things must be said concerning this curse. First, it is one which is for all women, not just Eve. Just as all women must share in the pains of childbirth, so they must be subject to the authority of their husbands. This does not in any way imply any inferiority on the part of women. Neither does it justify the restriction of voting rights or withholding equal pay, etc. Just as Eve’s punishment related to the center of her life, so is the case with Adam. He had been placed in the garden, now he will have to earn a living from the ground “by the sweat of his brow” (vss 17-19). You will notice that while the serpent is cursed, it is only the ground which is cursed here & not Adam or Eve. God cursed Satan because He does not intend to rehabilitate or redeem him. But already the purpose of God to save men has been revealed (vs 15). Not only will Adam have to battle the ground to earn a living, he will eventually return to dust. Spiritual death has already occurred (vss 7-8). Physical death has begun. Apart from the life which God gives, man will simply (slowly) return to his original state—dust (cf. 2:7). Adam’s response to God’s penalties and promise is revealed in vs 20: “Now the man called his wife’s name Eve, because she was the mother of all the living.” I believe this act evidenced a simple faith on the part of Adam. He accepted his guilt and punishment, but focused upon the promise of God that through the offspring of woman the Savior would come. Eve’s salvation (and ours as well!) would come through her submission to her husband and through the bearing of children. Adam’s naming the woman, Eve, which means ‘living’ or ‘life’ showed that life would come through Eve. God is not just a God of penalties, but of gracious provision. Thus, He made for Adam and his wife garments from the skins of animals to cover their nakedness. A veiled prophecy of redemption through the shedding of blood is not, in my opinion, an abuse of this verse. A Severe Mercy (3:22-24) Satan’s promise had, in a backhanded way, come true. Adam and Eve had, in a sense, become like God in the knowing of good and evil (verse 22). But there is a great difference as well as some similarity. Both man and God knew good and evil, but in a vastly different way. Perhaps the difference can best be illustrated in this way. A doctor can know of cancer by virtue of his education and experience as a doctor. That is, he has read of cancer, heard lectures on cancer, and seen it in his patients. A patient, also, can know of cancer, but as its victim. While both know of cancer, the patient would wish he had never heard of it. Such is the knowledge which Adam and Eve came to possess. God had promised salvation to come in time through the birth of Messiah, who would destroy Satan. Adam and Eve might be tempted to gain eternal life through the eating of the fruit of the tree of life. They had chosen knowledge OVER LIFE. Now, as the Israelites too late tried to possess Canaan (Num 14:39-45), so fallen spiritually dead man might attempt to gain unending existence through the tree of life in the garden. It would seem that had Adam & Eve eaten of the tree of life they would have lived in the state of spiritual death & separation forever (vs 22). This is the reason God sent them OUT of the garden (vs 23). In vs 24 the ‘sending out’ of the two is more dramatically called ‘driving out.’ Stationed at the entrance of the garden are the cherubim & the ever turning, flaming sword. “How cruel & severe,” some would be tempted to protest. In today’s legal jargon, it would probably be called ‘cruel & unusual punishment.’ But stop & think a moment, before you speak rashly. What would have happened had God not driven this couple from the garden & banned their return? I can answer it in one word—HELL--with no provision of escape from it. Hell is giving men both what they want AND what they deserve (cf. Rev 16:6) forever. Hell is spending eternity in sin, separate from God. II Thess 1:9 And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord & from the glory of His power. God was merciful & gracious in putting Adam & Eve out of the garden. He kept them from eternal punishment with no remedy of escape, had they eaten from the free of life. Their salvation would not come in a moment, but in time, not easily, but through pain—but it would come. They must trust Him to accomplish it through the promise of THE SEED of the woman. Gal 3:16 Scripture does not say "& to seeds," meaning many people, but "& to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ. I cannot help but think of Paul’s words when I read this chapter, “Behold then the kindness AND severity of God” (Rom 11:22). There is sin & there is judgment. But the chapter is interlaced with grace. God sought out the sinners. He sentenced them as well, but with a promise of salvation to come. And keeping them from hell on earth, He provides them with a covering for the time & full redemption in time. What a Savior! Repent & believe in the Savior & follow Him!
7/21/2017 3:02:20 PM	Do As the Bereans Did Acts 17:11 and Practice Heb 13:1
prophetic774 Winter Haven, FL 67, joined Feb. 2011	WHEN WILL THE LOST BE JUDGED AND SENT TO HELL? John 12:48: Jesus says, “There is a Judge for the one who rejects Me and does not accept My words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the LAST DAY!!” 2 Thess 1:1,6-10: ‘To the CHURCH* of the Thessalonians…God is just; He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen WHEN the Lord Jesus is REVEALED {See I Peter 1:13} from heaven in blazing fire…. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting DESTRUCTION and shut out from the presence of the Lord ON THE DAY HE COMES to be glorified in His holy people!!” {THE LAST DAY-See Rev 20:11-15} Matt 25:31-34,41: Jesus says, “WHEN the Son of Man comes in His glory,{On the Last Day} and all the angels with Him {See Matt 24:29-31}, He will sit on His throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate the people one from another……He will put His sheep on His right and the goats on the left. THEN the King {Jesus} will say to those on His right, “Come you who are blessed by My Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the worlew Heaven and a New Earth, the home of righteousness!!.. THEN He will say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire!” John 5:28,29: Jesus says, “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming {The Last Day} when ALL {Both OT & NT Saints} who are in their graves will hear His voice and come out—those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.” Daniel 12:1b,2,7b: “There will be a time of distress {The Great Tribulation} such as not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time {The Last Day} your people--EVERYONE whose name is found written in the Book {Both OT & NT Saints}—will be delivered. Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt…It will be for a time. times and half a time {1260 days-Rev 12:6,14, or 42 {30-day} months-Rev 13:5-{Not 7 years} ALL these things will be COMPLETED. Actually there are many similarities between Revelation 20:11-15 and the Judgment of ALL* the lost in Matthew 25:31-46 on the Day that Jesus comes again: Matthew 25:31-34,41,46: “WHEN the Son of Man {The Lamb} comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, He will sit on HIS THRONE in Heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him and He will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on His right and the goats on the left.” “THEN the King will say to those on the right, “Come you who are blessed by My Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.” {The New Jerusalem with its New Heaven and New Earth—See Rev 21:1-5 & 2 Peter 3:10-13} “*THEN He will say to those on His left, “Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.” ....”THEN they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” Matthew 13:40-43: Jesus says, “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the END OF THE AGE. The Son of man will send out His angels, and they will weed out of His kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. **THEN the righteous will shine like the sun in the Kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
7/21/2017 3:11:21 PM	Do As the Bereans Did Acts 17:11 and Practice Heb 13:1
prophetic774 Winter Haven, FL 67, joined Feb. 2011	Is the SDA, Louie and Urantia correct when they claim their is no eternal torment in hell for unbelievers but that they will be completely annihilated???? SEVEN times in the NT Jesus stated that there would be WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH in hell!!! In Matthew 8:12; 13:42,50; 22:13; 24:31; 25:30 an Luke13: 28!! Matthew 13:40-43: Jesus says, "So it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH!! Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who as ears ,let him hear!!" INTERESTING QUESTION: How will the lost weep and gnash their teeth in eternal hell if they will be ANNIHILATED?? 666 is called the Beast 36 {6X6} times in Revelation and he will rule every nation tribe and language during the 42 month Great Tribulation just before the Resurrection of Jesus on the Last Day.. {See Rev 13:5-8} Revelation 19:20; 20:10: But, the beast will be captured, and with him the False Prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf {See Rev 13:11-18}. With these signs he will delude those who receive the mark of the Beast and worship his image. The two of them were will be thrown ALIVE into the fiery lake of burning sulfur!!...And the Devil, who deceived them, will be thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the Beast and the False Prophet had been thrown. They will be TORMENTED DAY AND NIGHT FOR EVER AND EVER!! Revelation 14:9-11: A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the Beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury , which has been thrown full strength into the cup of His wrath. He will be TORMENTED with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their TORMENT rises FOR EVER AND EVER. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the Beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name!!" Revelation 22:16,18,19: "I Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony FOR THE CHURCHES!...I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book. If anyone ADDS anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book {Including eternal torment in hell}. And if anyone TAKES WORDS AWAY** {like the SDA, Louie and Urantia} from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the Holy City {The New Jerusalem}, which are described in this book!!"
7/23/2017 5:11:01 PM	Do As the Bereans Did Acts 17:11 and Practice Heb 13:1
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	Thank you, prophetic, for showing that unbelievers/the wicked will indeed be judged & all thrown into the Gehenna of fire, the Lake of fire, the hell of fire, for ever & ever, even the Second Death, which has no ending or cessation. Also that they will NOT be annihilated as I have shown step-by-step in examining Scripture, that it is a false teaching. The biggest refutation of it, is the resurrection of all bodies of both believers & unbelievers. They are raised spiritual bodies that will not decay, be corrupted or annihilated because they have been raised IMMORTAL SPIRITUAL BODIES. (see I Cor 15). When the resurrected wicked go into eternal punishment, eternal destruction, eternal shame, eternal disgrace and all other terms used to describe the duration and state of being they have chosen for themselves, they will suffer torments day & night, day after day, for ever & ever. The fire in the spiritual realm in Gehenna is not like the fire in the physical realm. It cannot consume or annihilate their immortal spiritual bodies; so much of the torment comes from regrets & continued anger toward God & living in the realm of the accusations of the spiritual forces of darkness. Just as the devil & the demons accused the saints day & night (notice the similarity of terms), so now that will continue in Gehenna, in the Lake of fire, day & night, day after day, for ever & ever. Some punishment will be more bearable (Mt 10:15; 11:22-24; Lk 10:12-14; James 1:7; etc.) just as the eternal rewards will be differentiated. (I Cor 3:11-15; Mk 10:30; Mt 10:41, etc.) I have dealt with all these things in detail in this thread & several others. There is someone on here who has repeated his favorite mantra: 'there is no hell...there is no hell...there is no zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. Somehow he thinks that repeating it in enough threads & saying it over & over will somehow make it true. It doesn't. And if he tries to quote Mr. Strong over & over again, which he tries & does, he conveniently leaves out the parts of Mr. Strong's definitions that he doesn't agree with: like the parts where Mr. Strong calls Gehenna 'hell,' showing it to be equative & also a legitimate translated word in English. Or when he says that Gehenna in the NT is used FIGURATIVELY of Jesus of the ancient valley of Gehinnom, representing a place in the spiritual realm where people go to in eternal punishment, not the ancient physical valley. A.T. Robertson fully agrees as well, the great Greek scholar. Gesenius, the great Hebrew scholar mentions hell as a legitimate translation for sheol. A.E. Vine, a recognized & respected scholar of both Greek & Hebrew does the same. Mr. Vine does make a distinction between the intermediate 'hell' that translates sheol & hades & the permanent eternal hell that is the Gehenna of fire, the Lake of fire, the Second Death. I would agree with him that for some it might be unclear in someone's mind at first until this is pointed out. I listed post after post of multitudes of Hebrew & Greek scholars & commentators that fully agreed there is a hell, it is a legitimate English translation & saying it is not fictitious or saying it doesn't exist. To believe it doesn't exist is definitely dangerous for one's spiritual well being. It is a legitimate English translation of sheol, hades, tartarus & Gehenna, when clarified. I have shown in multitudes of Scriptures the different names used in Scripture for the place of departed souls/spirits after physically dying, both intermediately & eternally. I have done the same for the multitude of 'conditions' that the soul/spirit/resurrected bodies experience there. They are conscious, can speak, etc. & that their punishment is just & impartial, that people are judged by their own evil works done apart from God & by what they did in this life, in sinning, whether by thought, word or deed. Since they rejected God's salvation & sought to establish their own righteousness, they will get what they deserve & wanted. Their choices will lead to this. God simply records all these & pronounces sentence & separation from His 'MANIFESTED' Presence of light into the darkness. Here again is a summary of my Connecting Dots Illustration so far on the reality of the existence of fire in the places where people go after they die & after they are resurrected. This simple, easily understandable act of CORRELATING SCRIPTURES throughout the Bible, is NOT child's play. It is part of Acts 17:11--'noble character of searching the (whole of) Scripture to see if these things are true.' It is also part of 'rightly dividing (cutting a straight furrow in accurately handling) the word of truth.' Prior to connecting the dots illustration, to get the in-depth points I have made so far on the topic of the nature of God & His character--in dealing with sinful humanity in rebellion against Him & faithful, obedient people--see the threads below. Scripture describes what happens to people AFTER THEY DIE & AFTER THEY ARE RESURRECTED. It also describes the places they go to & the conditions within those places. One also needs to define what happens to the material & immaterial parts of man that separate when a person physically dies. One also needs to describe the difference between fire in the physical realm and fire in the spiritual realm. We cannot talk about God--Who He is & what He is like--without talking about His wrath. In Scripture we first 'define' it, then 'describe' it, then understand how to be 'delivered' from it. The 1st aspect is: it is deserved . The 2nd is that sometimes—not always—it is delayed. The 3rd is the certainty of it's coming (Ps 7:11,12; Rom 2:4,5). And the 4th aspect is: there IS deliverance from it through repentance & confessing the Lord Jesus in one's life, evidenced by a valid living faith day by day, expressing itself through love. To see the Biblical God as HE reveals Himself in Scripture, is quite shocking. It exposes our 'false' gods. We do NOT determine who God is & how He should think & act; we submit to a holy & righteous God as HE truly is revealed in the WHOLE OF SCRIPTURE, loving Him with our whole being & loving our neighbor as ourselves in the power of the Holy Spirit. Our God is justified & impartial in His anger & carries it out righteously & blamelessly. It is WE who have PROVOKED Him to righteous anger & bring on ourselves recompense. DOT #1: God is consuming fire. That is the nature of God as He reveals Himself in Scripture. Since God is eternal, since God does not change (Malachi 3:6) & since He is consuming fire, the fire continues forever. (Deut 4:24; Heb 12:29--no definite article—This is God’s nature & closely associated with His glory, His Jealousy [Ex 34:14], His purity & His judgments. This is NOT a fire to get warmed by (Deut 5:5,23-25; Heb 12:18-21) [additional verses: Is 29:6; 30:27,30; 33:14; Ex 24:17; Num 11:3; 26:10; Ps 18:8; 50:3; Lam 2:3; 2 Sam 22:9; Deut 9:3; Joel 2:5; Judges 6:21, Deut 4:24; Lev 10:2; etc.] Lk 12:49,50 I am come to CAST FIRE upon the earth & how I wish it were kindled already...[Mt 3:12; Acts 18:5] Gen 3:24; Deut 35:14,15 Sinners in Zion are terrified; trembling has seized the godless. "Who among us can live with the CONSUMING FIRE? Who among us can live with CONTINUAL BURNING?" Lev 6:9,12,13; 9:24; 2 Chron 7:1 FIRE will be kept burning on the altar CONTINUALLY. https://www.gotquestions.org/altar-fire.html (to be continued)
7/24/2017 11:34:04 AM	Do As the Bereans Did Acts 17:11 and Practice Heb 13:1
prophetic774 Winter Haven, FL 67, joined Feb. 2011	DOES THE PRECIOUS BLOOD OF CHRIST HAS TO BE SPILLED OVER AND OVER AGAIN TO ATONE FOR OUR SINS?? The Apostle Peter wrote in I Peter 1:17-19: For you know it was not with perishable things such as silver and gold that you were REDEEMED from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, but with the PRECIOUS BLOOD OF CHRIST, a Lamb without blemish or defect!! Isaiah 53:5,6: But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and BY HIS WOUNDS WE ARE HEALED. We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all!! I Peter 2:24,25: He Himself bore our sins in his body on a tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness, BY HIS WOUNDS WE ARE HEALED!. For you were like sheep going astray , but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls! The apostle John wrote in I John 2:1,2: But if anybody does sin, we have One who speaks in our defense--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. HE IS THE ATONING SACRIFICE FOR OUR SINS. And not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world! I John 4:10: This is love; not that we loved God, but that He loved us, and sent His Son as AN ATONING SACRIFICE FOR OUR SINS*! Revelation 22:16,18,19: "I, Jesus. have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the Churches.... I warn everyone who hears the words of this prophecy of this Book: If anyone ADDS* anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this Book {Including ETERNAL HELL} And if anyone TAKES WORDS AWAY from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the Tree of Life and in the Holy City {The New Jerusalem}, which are described in this book." Revelation 1:5: From Jesus Christ, to Him who loves and has FREED US FROM OUR SINS BY HIS BLOOD!! Which follow Jesus only and Ludlow totally disagree with and commits the unpardonable sin of TAKING WORDS AWAY from the book of Revelation!! Revelation 5:9: "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because You were slain and WITH YOUR BLOOD purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation!!" Ephesians 1:3-8; 11; 19-23: Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with EVERY spiritual blessing in Christ. For He chose us in Him before the creation of the world to be holy and BLAMELESS in His sight. In love He predestined us to be adopted as His sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with His pleasure and will--to the praise of His GLORIOUS GRACE, which He has freely given us in the One He loves. In Him we have REDEMPTION THROUGH HIS BLOOD, the forgiveness of sins. in accordance the riches of God's grace that He lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding.....In Him we were also CHOSEN having been predestined according to the plan of Him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of His will!!.....That power is like the working of His mighty strength, which He exerted in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the PRESENT AGE but also in the one to come. And God paced ALL THINGS under His feet and appointed Him {Not a pope}to be the *HEAD* over everything for the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills everything in every way!! Ephesians 2:4-10: Because of His great love for us, God,, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is BY GRACE you have been saved! And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages He might show the incomparable riches of His grace, expressed in His kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is BY GRACE you have been saved, through faith-- and this NOT FROM YOURSELVES, it is the GIFT of God--NOT BY WORKS, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do! Ephesians 6:7,8: Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not men, because you know that the Lord will REWARD** everyone for whatever good he does! SALVATION IS 100 PERCENT FREE AND REWARDS ARE 100 PERCENT EARNED!!
7/24/2017 1:47:15 PM	Do As the Bereans Did Acts 17:11 and Practice Heb 13:1
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	(continued) Num 11:3 (Deut 9:22) The name of that place was Taberah ['burning, consuming'], because YHWH's FIRE burned among them. DOT #2 God's consuming fire can exist everywhere in the universe, in both the visible, physical (material) realm & in the invisible, spiritual (immaterial) realm. Scripture shows it exists in both, including the spiritual places God has made & PREPARED in the invisible realm called: Sheol aka Abaddon aka the Pit or bottomless pit aka the abyss aka Hades or the temporary hell aka the lower parts of or under the earth. It also includes, in the spiritual realm, in the new heavens & earth, the invisible spiritual place of Gehenna aka Tophet aka Lake of Fire aka the Second Death aka the permanent place of hell aka the fiery furnace. You will notice the difference between the former intermediate place (sent or placed there) vs the latter permanent dwelling (they DEPART FROM GOD & GO INTO IT &/or are CAST OR THROWN INTO IT). Dot #3: Does the Scriptures teach, that people are in these places in the invisible spiritual realm that God has prepared beforehand & that there are conditions that are both pleasant & unpleasant (including fire), depending on who is in there & where they are located? Yes Who is the best authority in answering this question? Jesus is. Why? 1) Jesus as the Creator of all things, both visible & invisible, created & prepared all these places & the conditions found in each one. (John 1:1-18; Col 1:15-17) 2) Jesus is the Word of God. All the treasures of wisdom & understanding are found in Him. 2) Jesus physically died (understands what happens at death & afterwards) & his soul/spirit departed from his dead body Jesus committed His spirit to the Father. The Father then, like every other human being, sent His Son to descend into the spiritual abode or place of the dead. He preached to the demonic spirits in prison, triumphing over them & death (I Cor 15:55,56)--through the cross. (Col 2:15) He also rose out from among the dead, conquered the power of death & the devil & gained the keys to Death & Hades (Rev 1:18) & binding & loosing things in the heavenly realms (Mt 16:19; 18:18) & the keys to the Davidic kingdom. He will bring about the resurrection of the dead bodies (I Cor 15) & will establish a 1000 year old earthly kingdom centered in Israel & then an unending spiritual kingdom out of heaven & coming down to a new earth & new heavens. 3) Jesus is the holy, just & impartial Judge of the living & the dead. 4) Jesus by Nature is God & Man, Knowing the End from the Beginning & Can Relate With Our Condition All At The Same Time. He is the truth, thinks it, speaks the truth, lives the truth. Scripture is progressive in its unfolding & we learn from seeing the whole counsel of God. On this whole subject of DEATH & JUDGMENT, we need to go back to Genesis & work our way foward, examining verse after verse that talks about. John 1:3-5; I Sam 2:8-12; Ps 31:17; Gen 1:1 YLT In the beginning of God's PREPARING the heavens & the earth--& DARKNESS is on the face of THE DEEP. Is 45:7; Ps 95:4,5 ...the DEPTHS of the earth; the One forming light & PREPARING DARKNESS. Isaiah 30:15,27,28,33 “In repentance & rest is your salvation...but U would have NONE of it. ...The Name of YHWH comes...with burning anger & ...smoke...His tongue is CONSUMING FIRE...TOPHETH has LONG BEEN PREPARED; Its PIT of fire has been made deep & wide, the breath of YHWH, like a stream of BURNING BRIMSTONE, sets it ablaze. Job 38:1,4,12-14,15,17-20,33,36 "Who is this who gives DARK COUNSEL WITH WORDS, WITHOUT KNOWLEDGE? WHERE WERE U when I founded the earth--when the morning stars sang together--when all the angels of God shout [Complete Jewish Bible--CJB]? Declare, if U have understanding." 12 "Have you commanded the morning since thy days & caused THE DAYSPRING to KNOW HIS PLACE [prophetic--Jesus is the Dayspring, the 'He'--Lk 1:78]; that it (he) might take hold of the ends of the earth, so that the wicked might be shaken out of it? The seal changes LIKE CLAY & they shall stand like a garment. And from the wicked their LIGHT IS WITHHELD & their high arm is broken." 17 Were the GATES OF DEATH revealed to you? And the GATES OF THE SHADOW OF DEATH (CJB--death-like darkness), did you see? [LXX: And do the gates of death open to thee for fear & did the porters of hades quake when they saw thee?] [Rashi Commentary on TeNaKh {most influential Middle Age rabbi}: The seal… like clay: The cast of man’s countenance [changes] when he dies & at the resurrection of the dead they will live again & they will stand up in their clothing--see Job 19:23-27]. Notice the prophecy of God talking about dying & rising again & Jesus the Dayspring coming to judge the wicked & sentence them to darkness, their pride broken. The book of Job is FULL of God's revelation, concealed in poetic language in OT but revealed in the NT! Pulpit Commentary: "By 'the gates of death,' Sheol, the abode of the dead, seems to be intended (comp. Job 10:21, 22; Job 17:16; Ps 9:13). Has Job explored this region & penetrated its secrets? Or is it as unknown to him as to the rest of mankind? The 2nd hemistich - Or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death? - is a mere echo of the first, adding a new description in referring to the same place. Cambridge Bible For Schools & Colleges: 'the gates of death'--Death is personified; it is Sheol, the place of the dead (cf, Job 28:22. "This is a LOWER DEEP than the recesses of the sea; Jonah went down there." This is Jonah going to Sheol, his body not going through corruption & being raised on the third day; a perfect sign & prophecy of Christ! (Lk 11:29; Mt 12:39; Mk 8:12) God heard Jonah's cry from the depths of Sheol! He was conscious. Benson Commentary: "Have U looked into sheol, or hades, the intermediate state, the region of DEPARTED SPIRITS? And do U know how the [DEPARTED] SOULS of men are placed or ordered after death & what are their various states & conditions? Or, have U observed & marked the several ways leading to & introducing death? (to be continued)
7/24/2017 3:30:33 PM	Do As the Bereans Did Acts 17:11 and Practice Heb 13:1
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	Death is a grand secret. [Mt 13:39-43; Lk 16:22,23] Let us make it sure that the gates of heaven shall be opened to us on the other side of death & then we need not fear the opening of the gates of death to receive us. Dot#4: Scripture teaches there are two classes of people & that each one has a separate identity & judgment & location after their judgment. BY FAITH IN the Lord Jesus Christ (Rom 5:1-3) we have: been justified by His blood (vs 9) & have peace with the Father; we have standing access into His grace (vs 2); joy in our hope of sharing in God's glory & in the endurance of our sufferings that results in proven character(vs 3); power & salvation through Him from God's wrath while still powerless & sinners (vs 9); been reconciled to the Father by the death of His Son & even more will be saved by the life of Christ & even more from that we rejoice in the Father's received reconciliation. 1. Though God Wills It, Not All Will Be Saved(Mt 7:14,21,22; 22:14; Lk 13:22-28; Rom 9:27) 2. Though God Wills It, Not All Will Come to the Knowledge of the Truth (2 Tim 3:7) 3. Though God Wills It, Not All Will Repent But Perish (Lk 13:3,5; Mt 21:32; Rom 1:32; 2:4,5,8) 4. Though God Wills It, Not All Will Enter the Kingdom of the Father & The Lamb (James 4:12; Jn 1:4; 5:40; I Cor 6:9; Heb 5:9: I Cor 15:50; Mt 25:46; Jn 3:5; Mt 18:3; Mk 10:15; Mt 25:30; Mt 10:33; Jn 3:36; Mt 10:28; Lk 12:5; Mt 5:20; Mt 16:25,26; Ps 49:7,8; Mt 15:3ff, 13; Lk 8:11,12; Heb 4:1-3,6; Lk 20:15-18; Mt 23:13,33; Mt 7:21-23; Jn 6:39,40; Mt 18:8 (Mk 9:33ff); Mt 8:11,12; Mt 25:10-13; Lk 13:25-28; Gal 4:29,30) 5. Though God Wills It, There Is A Consistent Teaching from Genesis to Revelation of Two Classes of People: Believer VS Unbelievers (Jn 3:12-21; I Pet 2:7-9); The Wicked Vs The Righteous (Gen 18:25; Mal 3:18; Ps 7:8,9); The Ungodly Vs The Godly (Titus 2:12; Ps 1:1-6; ; Those Born of the Spirit Vs Those Born Of The Flesh (Jn 3:3-8; Gal 4:21-31); The Vessels of Wrath Vs Vessels Of Mercy (Rom 9:21-23), Illegitimate Vs Legitimate Children of God (Heb 12:4-11); Etc. Dot#5: Scripture teaches that the duration of the punishment for the spiritually dead wicked & unbelieving & the duration of the life of the righteous & believers in the Lord, the Son of God & Messiah are the same: they both will exist in immortal resurrected bodies for ever & ever, for eternity, their duration being without end, either in punishment & excluded from God's presence & glory (no name in the Book of Life) or in the Lamb's Book of Life & in the presence of the manifested glory of God. [God infrequently lets us to see into the invisible, spiritual realm--see I Sam 28:3-25,27 ...What is his FORM? She said, "An old man is coming up & he is wrapped in a mantle (cloak)." And Saul knew that he was Samuel. Notice they are talking to a conscious, human being that died, who is in the immaterial, invisible spiritual realm as a departed soul/spirit, who becomes 'observable' & has a recognized 'spiritual' form without his physical body, that is similar in appearance to the old bodily form. Samuel prophecied that Saul & his sons would be killed the following day & join him in Sheol, in that special compartment of Sheol called the 'garden of Eden' where believing saints went. (also called 'paradise' or 'Abraham's bosom' or the 'abode of bliss,' etc.). It was cut off from Adam & Eve but placed here. It confirms what Jesus taught (Lk 16) & Jeremiah & Ezekiel. This is where Abraham, Isaac & Jacob resided. Also Samuel had to be in fellowship with the living God, in order to be able to receive the prophetic word from God concerning Saul & his sons. This occurred WHILE SAMUEL was in Sheol & AFTER HIS PHYSICAL DEATH & BURIAL. He predicted not only their physical death but exactly where they, as an immaterial soul/spirit would come TO when they DEPARTED FROM THEIR BODIES. These witnesses of a conscious existence after physical death (Moses, Elijah, Abraham, Samuel, Pharaoh of Egypt, etc.) are just some among many in Scripture that deny any false teaching such as annihilation or soul sleep or extinction. These people confirm there is a conscious afterlife, when they depart from their physical bodies & exist in a place in the invisible, spiritual realm, that Scripture calls by various names, as I am showing & that competent Bible scholars all the way back to the early church fathers have shown as well. These are not a few isolated verses but a consistent biblical witness throughout. Ps 107:18; Amos 5:8 Seek Him Who MADE the 7 stars & Orion & turned the SHADOW OF DEATH into morning...(Job 3:5; 10:21,22; 12:22; 16:16; 24:17; 28:3; 34:22; Ps 23:4; 44:19; Jer 13:15-17; Lk 1:79; Mt 4:16) Isaiah 38:10,11 I said, In the quiet of my days I must depart; I am consigned to enter THE GATES OF SHEOL [LXX: Hades] deprived for the rest of my years. I am deprived the rest of my years. I said, I shall not see again YHWH, YHWH in THE LAND OF THE LIVING. I shall behold man no more with the inhabitants of the world. My home is broken up, and is carried off from me like a shepherd's tent. Ellicott's Commentary: --my home, or habitation--Ps 49:19. The “home” is, of course, the mortal body, as the temporary dwelling-place of the spirit. (Ps 52:5, “He will take U away, even snatching U out of your tent” & Job 21:28, “Is not their tent-cord torn away?” The “shepherd’s tent” is a type of a transitory home or habitation (2Cor 5:1-4). Ezek 26:20 For thus says Adonai YHWH: "I WILL bring U down WITH those who DESCEND INTO THE PIT, those who descended there LONG AGO & will make U to DWELL in the LOWER PARTS OF THE EARTH, in the PLACES that are desolate FROM OLD. Just as the soul cannot be killed (Mt 10:28), now the resurrected body can't be killed; a person will continue to exist for ever in a 'ruined' or futile state, apart from the life, presence & glory of God. They fall short of it due to their own actions & choices, to live apart from God. They are lost & remain spiritually dead. This is the typical description of what happens to those that are cast or thrown into the lake of fire aka Gehenna of fire, the hellfire or hell of fire. Job 31:12 For it is a FIRE that devours to...ABADDON. (Jewish Encyclopedia: 'the nether world, almost synonymous with Sheol; the realm of destruction.') [Job 26:6; 28:22] How much punishment does a person need who has taken someone's child & abused them in some way or raped or killed them? How much punishment is needed to repay the unrepentant wicked person for something that is priceless & can never be gotten back, that those who suffered such atrocities have to live with every day of their lives--suffering torment & loss. (to be continued)
7/26/2017 9:37:22 AM	Do As the Bereans Did Acts 17:11 and Practice Heb 13:1
prophetic774 Winter Haven, FL 67, joined Feb. 2011	(this post has been flagged as inappropriate, sorry.)
7/26/2017 1:48:28 PM	Do As the Bereans Did Acts 17:11 and Practice Heb 13:1
prophetic774 Winter Haven, FL 67, joined Feb. 2011	WHAT CAN SAINTS EXPECT IN THE FIRST WEEK OF THE 1260-DAY GREAT TRIBULATION?? According to Revelation 13:5,7,8: The Beast {666} will have authority over EVERY tribe people nation and language in the world for 42 months {1260 days} and everyone whose name is not written in the Lamb's Book of Life will worship 666. 666 is called “THE BEAST” 36 {6x6} times in Revelation . Question: How will the Beast {Nero Caesar-666} and His False Prophet {Obama?} gain control of every nation of the world in the first week of the 1260-day Tribulation?? According to Daniel 7:24b a Roman King will subdue 3 kings. Rev 6:8; “There before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, {666} and Hades {The False prophet who will cause people to go to hell or hades with the mark of 666} was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.” NOTE: China, India and Russia are 3 kingdoms that make up a fourth of the earth! Rev 13:4: Men worshiped the dragon {Satan} because he had given authority to the Beast {666} and they also worshiped the beast and asked, “Who is like the Beast? Who can make war against him?” Immediately after miraculously conquering 3 kingdoms or one fourth of the earth 666 will appoint 10 kings who had never before ruled over the 10 most powerful kingdoms of the earth. Rev 17:12-14: The 10 horns you saw {On 666} are 10 kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but will give their authority as kings along with the Beast {666}. They have one purpose and will give their authority to the Beast {666}. They will make war against the Lamb but the Lamb will overcome them {On the Last Day} because He is King of kings and Lord of lords.” {See Rev 19:20,21} The following 10 powerful nations have OVER 50% OF THE WORLD'S POPULATION and ABOUT 70% OF THE WORLD'S MILITARY POWER and certainly have the military, political and “religious” power to control and rule all the nations of the world: #1. United States #2. Russia #3. China {1.3 Billion} #4. Great Britain #5. France #6. India {1.1 Billion} #7. Germany #8. Japan #9. Brazil #10. Egypt. Brazil borders every nation in South America except for Chile. Egypt is the university, intellectual and theological center of Islam. And then 666 will have “authority over every tribe, people, language and nation” as per Rev 13:7b, from his headquarters in the evil city on 7 hills or Rome. The idea that 666 will choose a European Union of 10 nations with about 5 % of the world's population and about 10 % of the world's military power to control the world just because these nations are close to Rome is just an idea which is not supported by God's Word. Revelation 13:14-17: “He {The False Prophet-Obama??} will deceive the inhabitants of the earth. He will order them to set up an image in honor of the Beast {666} who was wounded by the sword {On June 9th AD 68} and yet lived {Nero Caesar?}. He will have power to give breath to the image of the first Beast {666}, so that it could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed.” “He {The False Prophet-Obama?} will force everyone... to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast {NERO CAESAR?} or the number of his name 666. Since these 2 world-wide laws: To worship the statue of 666 {Possibly on TV} or be killed; and not being able to buy or sell anything; there will be a huge falling away among most of the people who claim to be Christians but are not the Called, the Chosen and the Faithful {See Revelation 17:14}. Moses and Elijah will begin their 1260-day testimony {Rev 11:3} 3 1/2 days before the coming of 666 & the 1260-day Great Tribulation and 1263 1/2 days before the Last Day. {**THE FIRST END-TIME EVENT*} Moses and Elijah will certainly warn God's saints of the coming of 666 and his False Prophet. In Matthew 24:3,9-13: The disciples asked Jesus, “What will be the sign of your Coming and the end of the age?? Jesus answered….. {During the 1260-day Great Tribulation} “Then YOU* will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and YOU will be hated by all nations BECAUSE OF ME. At that time many will turn away from the Faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of MOST will grow cold, but he {The Called, Chosen & Faithful—Revelation 17:14} who stands firm to the END will be saved.” Rev 2:10: Jesus says, “Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the Crown of Life!” God will miraculously take care of His Faithful and Courageous Tribulation Saints {Just as he took care of the Israelites for 40 years in the Wilderness} even though they won’t be able to buy or sell anything as per Rev 13:17a. {See Matthew 6:25-34 where storing up items are forbidden} There are a few Post-Tribbers such as Jim Bakker who are teaching that we should store up at least a year's supply of food for the Great Tribulation which is a direct contradiction to God's Word in Matthew 6:25-34. God's NT saints will go through the Great Tribulation without suffering the wrath of God, as did the OT saints in Egypt when God sent many horrific plagues on Egyptians because of Pharoah. Matthew 6:31-34: Jesus says, “Do not worry, saying, “What shall we eat?” or “What shall we drink?” or “What shall we wear?” For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. But seek first His Kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. Therefore, do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own!” Luke 21”12-17: Jesus says, They will lay hands on you and persecute you. They will deliver you to prisons, and you will be brought before kings and governors, and all on account of My Name. This will result in your being witnesses to them. But make up your mindnot to worry beforehand how you will defend yourselves. For I will give you words and wisdom that none of your adversaries will be able to resuist or contradict. You will be betrayed even by parents, brothers, relatives and friends. And they will put some of you to deah. All men will hate you because of Me. Matthew 24:23-25: Jesus says, “At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. See, I have told you ahead of time.” {See Rev 13:14,15 and 2 Thess 2:9-12} I Peter 1:13: “Therefore, prepare your minds for ACTION, and set your hope FULLY on the grace to be given YOU when Jesus Christ is REVEALED. And so those who love Jesus and obey His commands will be ready for the 1260-day coming Great Tribulation which may be very very close!!
7/27/2017 10:08:55 AM	Do As the Bereans Did Acts 17:11 and Practice Heb 13:1
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	Thanks, Prophetic, on thoughts on the Great Tribulation. Even in the midst of God pouring out His wrath on the ungodly & blasphemers, we recognize the mercy of God in this that He has WAITED over 2000 YEARS before finally releasing it. How merciful God is to wait THAT LONG & bear with the evil, violence & wickedness of man against Himself & other human beings. Why? The Apostle Peter tells us. 2 Peter 3:8-10 Beloved, do not let this one thing escape your notice: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years & a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow to fulfill His promise as SOME understand slowness, but is LONGSUFFERING with you, NOT wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come TO REPENTANCE. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodiesb will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be burned up. So let us keep on preaching the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ to the lost & perishing & pray for their repentance, so we might be in line with God's heart before the full measure of sin is reached [Gen 15:16; Is 65:7; 2 Chron 36:15,16; Mt 7:2; Mk 4:24; Is 47:9; etc.), when there is no more remedy or recourse but the judgment & wrath of God brought to reality. 'It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God!' I am finishing up on my connecting the dots illustration, on God's nature as consuming fire & His righteous unending judgment of the unbelieving, spiritually dead wicked & the unending eternal life & glory of the saints, the faithful believers & followers of the Lord. Deut 32:22: S.O.S 8:6; Rev 20:15; Is 33:14; Ezek 31:14-18; Mt 11:23; Rom 4:25; Rev_9:2 He opened THE PIT OF THE ABYSS & there came up a smoke...of a GREAT FURNACE (Lk 8:31; Rom 10:7; Ps 104:6; Rev 9:1,2,11; 11:7; 17:8; 20:1,3); Rev 21:8 ...The unbelieving, abominable, murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters & all liars, will have their part IN THE LAKE WHICH BURNS WITH FIRE & BRIMSTONE; which is the SECOND DEATH. Matt 8:10-13; 25:29,34,41; Rev 20:9,10 Notice that 2 men are thrown in the lake of fire as well as the devil. All of them will be tormented day & night for ever & ever. They will NOT be annihilated, utterly or completely destroyed or extinguished. As with other people, they now have resurrected bodies that are incorruptible & immortal (I Cor 15). Ezek 31:16-18 Then all the TREES OF EDEN...the well-watered trees, were COMFORTED in the earth below...Whom are U thus like IN GLORY [Lk 9:30] & in greatness among the trees of Eden? You shall be brought down with the trees of Eden to the [KJV--nether parts of the earth] world below [NET--lower parts of the earth; NIV--realm of the dead; YLT--the earth, the lower part]. You shall lie among the uncircumcised, with those who are slain by the sword. “This is Pharaoh & all his multitude, declares Adonai YHWH.” "The very fact that a distinction is made between trees of the field (Ezek 31:4,5) & trees of Eden in the garden of God (Ezek 31:8,9), shows not all regarded here as being in the same sense planted by God. If the garden of God stood for the world, where should we then have to look for the field? (Mt 13:24-32) ...It is the garden of PARADISE in Ezek 31:9,16,18; 28:13. The distinction in Gen 2:8 is the same distinction here. It was not all Eden, but THE GARDEN PLANTED BY YHWH Elohim in Eden, which formed the real paradisaical creation." Keil & Delitszhe Commentary That which the wicked made, in their judgment on the righteous, will return to them in just measure, with the choice they have made to live their lives without God. The 'certain' rich man, Dives, never cried out to God when he cried out in the torments in Hades. Those in the great tribulation do not repent when God judges them, but instead continue to blaspheme Him & gnash their teeth at him. Thus will continue their behavior in the Lake of fire. The actual soul & spirit are created in the image & likeness of God because God IS SPIRIT, immaterial, invisible. Yet even after physical death we have a spiritual 'form' until we receive our resurrected immortal spiritual bodies. When a person sins & becomes spiritually dead, the soul & spirit become spiritually dead, even though they are conscious & existing. So it depends on what life one is talking about & what death one is talking about. Spiritual death is the opposite of spiritual life & physical death is the opposite of physical life. See John 16:1-4; Rev 6:9-11. Have you ever watched the Nuremburg trials or watched serial killers, or people cutting off people's heads with swords, etc. & their maintaining their innocence, having no remorse [seared consciences--& that what they had done was actually good & right, even a service to God? It is chilling! "Vengeance is mine, I will repay", says the LORD. The saints suffer even after their physical death in Rev 6. YOU DON'T just wake someone up from SLEEP WHO HAS PHYSICALLY DIED. It doesn't work that way. You can shake the empty, cold, mortal body all you want. That which was the physically living human being or person, has now DEPARTED into the spiritual realm. (to be continued) [Edited 7/27/2017 10:10:13 AM ]
7/27/2017 10:58:11 AM	Do As the Bereans Did Acts 17:11 and Practice Heb 13:1
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 65, joined Feb. 2008	When the Antichrist comes Protestants will be fooled by him worse than Catholics will. The Antichrist will be a powerful attractive charismatic preacher who will seem very holy and who will quote scripture all over the place. Faithful Catholics who are well instructed and grounded in the faith will hear the Antichrist speak and will say, "oh, no matter how glib he is, no matter how eloquent, learned, and persuasive he is, what he preaches is against Catholic doctrine, so it must be false."
7/29/2017 12:50:16 PM	Do As the Bereans Did Acts 17:11 and Practice Heb 13:1
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	Thanks, Lud, for your comments on the great tribulation and the final antichrist. Mt 24:23-27 At that time, if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe it. 24For false Christs & false prophets will appear & perform great signs & wonders that would deceive even the elect, if that were possible. 25See, I have told you in advance. So if they tell you, ‘There He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. For just as the lightning comes from the east & flashes as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. The issue isn't so much on the doctrines, Lud, but on the miraculous signs & wonders that people will attribute to God & not the power of the devil. But it does teach in Scripture, that the whole world follows him, it is that astounding & deceptive. People cannot buy or sell without the mark. I just saw where a global company is now inserting micro implants under the skin of the hand of all their employess. They truly can't buy or sell or receive payment unless they do so. We are getting closer, so stay alert, for just as a thief in the night, the Lord will return, when we least expect it. But though others will say they are the Messiah, like this final antichrist, no one will miss the true Messiah when He comes as it will be a major flash all across the sky all over the world. He will come with His saints from heaven to judge the earth & bring the wrath of God upon the unbelieving. Back to topic. Then Abraham said, “May YHWH not be angry, but let me speak just once more. What if only 10 can be found there [Sodom]?” He answered, “For the sake of 10, I will not destroy it.” Here we see the heart of Abraham & the mercy of God. Do we have the same? Yet recognize the overwhelming wickedness in that whole area: there wasn't even 10 righteous people. God waited over 900 years before he brought the flood over the whole earth, because 'YHWH saw at the end that the wickedness of man was great in the earth & that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.' God waited over 400 years--until the sins of the Amorites had come to full measure (Gen 16:15)--before going before Israel as a 'consuming fire' to remove the people in the promised land. God did everything possible to prevent the exile of the Jews until there was no more remedy. God had delayed His judgment. (2 Chron 36:11-16). But He didn't stop His judgment & punishment once the measure of wrath & sin was made FULL. God is merciful, just & holy. He will do what is right, true & impartial, even the punishment of the wicked for eternity. On this whole subject of DEATH, we need to go back to Genesis & work our way foward. The living God created the heavens & the earth, things both visible & invisible, things in the spiritual realm that exist & things in the physical realm that exist & those which exist in both. God lives in the invisible realm as well as the spirit beings, but can manifest in the physical universe. Ps 5:6 Their INWARD PART is nothing but wickedness...their throat an open sepulchre. Acts 7:51 You stiff-necked people with UNCIRCUMCISED HEARTS & EARS! You always RESIST THE HOLY SPIRIT, just as your fathers did. Jer 4:4 "CIRCUMCISE YOURSELVES TO YHWH & remove the foreskins OF YOUR HEART, Men of Judah & inhabitants of Jerusalem, or else My wrath will go forth LIKE FIRE & BURN WITH NONE TO QUENCH IT, because of the EVIL OF YOUR DEEDS." (Jer 9:25,26; Deut 10:16; 30:6) I Pet 3:4 But let it be the HIDDEN PERSON of the HEART, in that which is NOT CORRUPTIBLE, the beauty of a gentle & quiet SPIRIT. Ps 51:6 Behold, U desire truth in the INWARD PARTS & in the HIDDEN PART U shall make me to know wisdom. Eph 3:16 I pray that out of the riches of His glory, He may strengthen you with power through His Spirit IN YOUR INNERMOST BEING... I Thess 5:23 May the God of peace Himself sanctify you WHOLLY & may your spirit AND soul AND body BE PRESERVED ENTIRE, without blame, AT THE COMING of our Lord Jesus Christ. Romans 7:21-23 So this is the principle I have discovered: when I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in MY INNER BEING [person, man] I delight in God’s Law. But I see another law at work IN MY BODY, warring against the law of my mind & HOLDING ME CAPTIVE to the law of sin that dwells within me. Rom 2:29 No, a man is a Jew because he is one INWARDLY & circumcision is a matter of the HEART, IN THE SPIRIT, not IN THE WRITTEN LAW. Such a man's praise does not come from men, but from God. (Gal 5:6; Col 2:11) 2 Cor 5:16,17 So from now on we regard no one ACCORDING TO THE FLESH. Although we once regarded Christ in this way, WE DO SO NO LONGER. Therefore IF anyone is IN Christ, he is a NEW CREATION. The old has passed away. Behold, the new has come! 3:10,11 Do not lie to one another, since U have PUT OFF THE OLD MAN with his deeds & have PUT ON THE NEW MAN who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him. Eph 4:22,23 You were TAUGHT TO PUT OFF your former way of life, YOUR OLD MAN, which is being CORRUPTED by its deceitful desires; TO BE RENEWED IN THE SPIRIT OF YOUR MINDS & to PUT ON THE NEW MAN, CREATED TO BE LIKE GOD in true righteousness & holiness. (James 1:21; I Peter 2:1,2; 4:3,4; Col 3:8,9; Eph 4:17-25) Gal 6:15 For neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything. What counts is a NEW CREATION. (Gal 5:6 Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. All that matters is faith expressed through love.) [I Cor 7:19 Circumcision is nothing & uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God's commandments is what matters.] Is 65:17 "For behold, I create new heavens & a new earth & the former things will not be remembered or COME TO MIND. 2 Cor 4:16 Therefore we do not despair, but even if our outer body is wearing away (decaying), our INNER PERSON (man) is BEING RENEWED DAY BY DAY. Our 'inner man' (soul & spirit) is what is made in God's likeness & image. God is spirit. Our heavenly Father does not have a physical body. He is invisible unless He chooses to manifest or reveal His Presence by spiritual or physical means such as a cloud covering His glory or a pillar of fire, or the wind, etc. Our inner man is invisible like God & is our means of communicating with God in the spiritual realm. Both dimensions or realms are just as real. Our 'outer man' is our physical bodies wonderfully made out of dust from the ground, into flesh & bones & a circulatory & a genetical system that still boggles the minds of scientists. It is finite, made to live & adapt in the physical realm. God created man in His own image, in God's likeness (Gen 5:1), as a spiritual being or person & housed it in a physical body made from dust. In Gen 2:7 we have one of the most unique & amazing passages in all of Scripture that progressively unfolds throughout the rest of Scripture & boggles our minds as to how our Creator I AM made us. (2 B continued) [Edited 7/29/2017 12:52:01 PM ]
7/29/2017 1:00:13 PM	Do As the Bereans Did Acts 17:11 and Practice Heb 13:1
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	YHWH Elohim formed man. In Gen 1 it was all Elohim. In Ch. 2 it is all YHWH Elohim; YHWH our Elohim. YHWH denotes that He alone has His being of Himself & that He gives being to all creatures & things. I AM the eternally existing One. Here the all powerful, eternally existing, living Maker reveals Himself in a different way by a different name for a special creative act--and for what purpose? RIGHTEOUS RELATIONSHIP...FELLOWSHIP WALKING IN GOD'S LIFE & LIGHT I Jn 1:1-10; I Cor 1:9 'It is NOT good for man to be ALONE.' We are created & called into fellowship with the Father & the Son & the Holy Spirit & with each other. Our joy becomes full, complete when we are in RIGHT relationship with God & with others. This revealed relational God who inhabits eternity, who is from everlasting to everlasting: FORMED man in all his members & put in man's heart & mind the concept of 'eternity in the midst of his awareness of a time-framed, matter & space continuum.' (Eccles 3:1-14) vs 14 "I perceived that whatever God does ENDURES FOREVER; nothing can be added to it, nor anything taken from it. God has done it, so people fear before Him. This Hebrew word 'jitzer' translated in English as FORMED, is uniquely used of the creation of man & no other creature. It implies a gradual process or work, using precision & exactness. Read Psalm 139 to see the detail our Savior used in making us. In Jewish thought, the metaphor is that of the potter shaping & molding the clay, into a beautiful & useful vessel or re-shaping & forming it again if it is spoiled or rebels against the Potter's purposes & becomes broken beyond repair or remedy. (Jer 18:1-12) We have been studying both the inner & outer man for thousands of years & we still find ourselves groping to explain things sometimes. God 'reveals' what we need to know in His Word, though one must truly search diligently & we will never fully fathom it's depths & heights. As the Apostle Peter says concerning some of the writings of the Apostle Paul, "His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant & unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction." (2 Pet 3:16) Trust God to reveal in His timing & in His ways what we need to know as we diligently seek the Lord & be patient. God knows what we need & what we need to know. YHWH Elohim formed MAN...aw dawm...a person, a human being, often called a soul in general terms, a unique autonomous 'self' . Out of 'nothing' a MAN was formed from aw dawma...dust, dirt, earth. Out of this man came a woman & out of them came the whole human race, in the likeness of ADAM. (Gen 5:3 He had a son in his own likeness...image.) And breathed into his nostrils THE BREATH OF LIVES (literally--in the plural in Hebrew!) physical life = physical breath from God, breathing air through our nostrils. As long as we draw breath, we live physically. This same breath is given to other creatures as well. spiritual life = spiritual breath from the God Who IS SPIRIT--creating a spirit within us, so we might experience SPIRITUAL LIFE IN RIGHT RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD & OTHERS. This is the mystery that God progressively reveals in the Scriptures, of both lives. Meyer's Commentary: He breathed into his nostrils — And thereby into his head & WHOLE man. The breath of life — Hebrew, the soul of LIVES, that is, BOTH natural & spiritual, both temporal & eternal life. It is sufficiently implied here that the soul of man is of a quite different nature & higher origin than the souls of beasts. (to be continued)
7/30/2017 9:35:24 PM	Do As the Bereans Did Acts 17:11 and Practice Heb 13:1
prophetic774 Winter Haven, FL 67, joined Feb. 2011	ARE DREAMS VISIONS AND REVELATIONS FROM GOD STILL NEEDED?? Revelation 1:1-3: The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants what must take place. He made it known by sending His angel to His servant John, who testifies to everything he saw--that is, the WORD OF GOD and the testimony of Jesus Christ. Blessed is the one who reads the WORDS OF THIS PROPHECY, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it!! Revelation 22:16,18,19: "I, Jesus have sent My angel to give this testimony for the churches... I warn everyone who reads the words of this prophecy of this book. If anyone ADDS anything to them God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone TAKES WORDS AWAY from this book of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the Tree of Life and in the Holy City, which are described in this book!!" I Corinthians 13:8-10: But where are there are prophecies, they will CEASE, where there are tongues, they will be *STILLED; .. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when COMPLETENESS COMES, what is in part DISAPPEARS!! Before the New covenant was COMPLETED* with Revelation in AD 96 there was a need for the early church to have dreams, visions and revelations from God. Once the perfect Word of God was completed and distributed to all the churches there was no longer any need for dreams, visions and revelations from God; since God's Perfect Word ANSWERS EVERY QUESTION AND PROBLEM WE MAY HAVE!! JESUS SAYS, "MY MOTHER AND BROTHERS ARE THOSE WHO HEARS GOD'S WORD AND PUTS IT INTO PRACTICE!" {Luke 8:21} Psalm 119 has 176 verses praising the Word of God. The Old Testament had 613 laws and the New Covenant of Jesus and His love has about 400 commands which Psalm 119 also applies to. Some of my favorite verses is Psalm 119 are: 119:105: Your Word is a Lamp to my feet and a Light for my path. 119:97: Oh how I love your law, I meditate on it all day long. 119:148: My eyes stay open through the watches of the night, that I meditate on your promises. 119:164: Seven times a day I praise you for your righteous laws. 119:16: All your Words are true; all your righteous laws are eternal. 119:169: Give me understanding according to your Word. 119:2: Blessed are those who keep His statues and seek Him with all your heart. 119:11: I have hidden your Word in my heart that I might not sin against You. 119:28: Strengthen me according to your Word. Deut 18:17-19: The Lord says, "I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put My words in His mouth, and He will tell them everything I command Him. If anyone does not listen to My words that the Prophet speaks in My Name, I Myself will call Him to account." John 14:23,24: Jesus says, "If anyone loves Me, He will OBEY MY TEACHING**! My Father will love Him, and we will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me will not obey My teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent Me."
7/30/2017 9:36:58 PM	Do As the Bereans Did Acts 17:11 and Practice Heb 13:1
prophetic774 Winter Haven, FL 67, joined Feb. 2011	(this post has been flagged as inappropriate, sorry.)
8/1/2017 12:10:19 AM	Do As the Bereans Did Acts 17:11 and Practice Heb 13:1
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	Thanks, Prophetic on the thoughts on the importance of the Scriptures. I would, however, differ with you that God no longer uses visions & dreams. Various missionaries attest to God using these & miraculous miracles in areas of the world where they don't have the Bible yet, especially in their own language. Brother Andrew said when he smuggled in Bibles to USSR that God would use dreams to tell others who were the genuine believers vs the spies. I have had a vision before & a word of knowledge (Spirit gives as He wills). I would also disagree with your interpretation of I Cor 13:10 that the 'completeness' (several modern versions change 'perfect' to completeness because they interpret it as the 'completed canon' of Scripture, which is not mentioned in any of the context. But it is talking about growing up & becoming a fully mature man in terms of TIME. Also even in the context--if we have ALL KNOWLEDGE in the written Scriptures--it is nothing without the more excellent way of LOVE. TELEION (TELEIOS) (G5046): having attained the end or purpose, complete, perfect; subst[tantive] to teleion what is perfect Ro 12:2; perh[aps] 1 Cor 13:10 (Bauer, Danker, Arndt, Gingrich) Brought to its end, finished; wanting nothing necessary to completeness; perfect...to teleion, substantively, that which is perfect...the perfect state of all things, to be ushered in by the return of Christ from heaven 1 Cor 13:10 Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers (10) That which is perfect--This verse shows, by the emphatic "then," that THE TIME WHEN the gifts shall cease is the end of this dispensation or the end of this age. The imperfect shall not cease until the perfect is brought in. (See Ephesians 4:11-13) Pulpit Commentary Vs 10. - That which is in part shall be done away - It will be lost in perfectness when we have at last attained to "the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ" (Eph 3:14). Eph 4:11-16 And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherdsc and teachers,d 12to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood,e to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, 14so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. 15Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, 16from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love. Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible (10) But when that which is perfect is come--When perfect knowledge of God, of Christ & of the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven shall take place; which will not begin of this life, but in that which is to come. So the Jews say that at the resurrection, upon the reunion of the soul & body, "the children of men shall attain to 'perfect knowledge,' which is what the apostle refers to here. A number of well-known evangelical Bible teachers (e.g., Wayne Grudem, John Piper, D.A. Carson, Matt Chandler, etc.) interpret the above passage this way: “The spiritual gifts of tongues, prophecy & knowledge will cease when the perfect comes. The perfect is the coming of Christ & the future state, not the completed Bible. Thus the NT teaches that the revelatory gifts of tongues, prophecy & knowledge will continue in the church until Christ returns.” I agree with them. (see Gen 6:9; 17:1; I Kings 11:4; 2 Chron 16:9; Job 1:1,8; 2:3; 36:4; Ps 19:7; 37:37; 101:6; Lk 1:3; etc.) Ps 138:8 The LORD will perfect that which concerneth me... Prov 4:18 But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more & more unto the PERFECT DAY. Luke 6:4 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master. Eph 4:13,14 Till we all come in the unity of the faith & of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a PERFECT MAN, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ; so that we may LONGER BE CHILDREN... Heb 13:21 Make you perfect in every good work to do His will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever & ever. Amen. Col 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man & teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus. Jas_1:2-4 Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, 3for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing. Col 4:12 Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand PERFECT & COMPLETE in all the will of God. I John 3:2,3 Beloved, we are now children of God & what we will be has not yet been revealed. We know that WHEN CHRIST APPEARS, we will be like Him, for we will see Him as He is. 3And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure. Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, so that they without us should not be made perfect. Heb 12:22-24 But you have come to Mount Zion & to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem & to innumerable angels in festal gathering & to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven & to God, the judge of all & to the spirits of the righteous MADE PERFECT & to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant & to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel. As mentioned, "the perfect" is often taken by non-charismatics as being the completion of the canon This interpretation is possible, based on one of the meanings of teleion ("perfect, perfection, completion"). However, this interpretation seems foreign to the immediate context. As the Expositor's Bible Commentary notes: "It is difficult to prove the cessation of these gifts at the end of the first century AD by taking 'teleion' to refer to a completion of the canon at that time, since that idea is completely extraneous to the context. While teleion can & does refer to something completed at some time in the future, the time of that future completion is not suggested in v. 10 as being close." It seems more likely Paul is referring to a time of spiritual completion--either when he dies & goes to be with Christ, or at the resurrection following Christ's 2nd Coming. "But it seems that the perfect thing Paul has in mind must be the eternal state--"face to face" in vs 12 can best be explained as being with God in the new heavens & new earth. It is only in glory that we will know as we are known." John MacArthur "But in heaven, faith will be swallowed up in actual sight & hope in enjoyment. There is no room to believe & hope, when we see & enjoy. But there, love will be made perfect. There we shall perfectly love God. And there we shall perfectly love one another. Blessed state! How much surpassing the best below! Matthew Henry
8/1/2017 12:59:42 PM	Do As the Bereans Did Acts 17:11 and Practice Heb 13:1
prophetic774 Winter Haven, FL 67, joined Feb. 2011	ARE DREAMS VISIONS AND REVELATIONS FROM GOD STILL NEEDED?? Revelation 1:1-3: The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants what must take place. He made it known by sending His angel to His servant John, who testifies to everything he saw--that is, the WORD OF GOD and the testimony of Jesus Christ. Blessed is the one who reads the WORDS OF THIS PROPHECY, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it!! Revelation 22:16,18,19: "I, Jesus have sent My angel to give this testimony for the churches... I warn everyone who reads the words of this prophecy of this book. If anyone ADDS anything to them God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone TAKES WORDS AWAY from this book of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the Tree of Life and in the Holy City, which are described in this book!!" I Corinthians 13:8-10: But where are there are prophecies, they will CEASE, where there are tongues, they will be *STILLED; .. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when COMPLETENESS COMES, what is in part DISAPPEARS!! Before the New covenant was COMPLETED* with Revelation in AD 96 there was a need for the early church to have dreams, visions and revelations from God. Once the perfect Word of God was completed and distributed to all the churches there was no longer any need for dreams, visions and revelations from God; since God's Perfect Word ANSWERS EVERY QUESTION AND PROBLEM WE MAY HAVE!! Of course the Charismatics disagree with this. They even believe that Mark 16:17,18 is a part of God's Word although almost all Bible scholars agree these words were not found in the earliest inspired manuscripts!! Mark 16:17,18: Jesus said, "And these signs will accompany those who believe: In My name they will drive out demons, they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands;{???} and when they drink deadly poison,{???} it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well." And the Roman Catholics disagree since they believe Mary and Roman Catholic prophets have given special new revelations about the future??? JESUS SAYS, "MY MOTHER AND BROTHERS ARE THOSE WHO HEARS GOD'S WORD AND PUTS IT INTO PRACTICE!" {Luke 8:21} Psalm 119 has 176 verses praising the Word of God. The Old Testament had 613 laws and the New Covenant of Jesus and His love has about 400 commands which Psalm 119 also applies to. Some of my favorite verses is Psalm 119 are: 119:105: Your Word is a Lamp to my feet and a Light for my path. 119:97: Oh how I love your law, I meditate on it all day long. 119:148: My eyes stay open through the watches of the night, that I meditate on your promises. 119:164: Seven times a day I praise you for your righteous laws. 119:16: All your Words are true; all your righteous laws are eternal. 119:169: Give me understanding according to your Word. 119:2: Blessed are those who keep His statues and seek Him with all your heart. 119:11: I have hidden your Word in my heart that I might not sin against You. 119:28: Strengthen me according to your Word. Deut 18:17-19: The Lord says, "I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put My words in His mouth, and He will tell them everything I command Him. If anyone does not listen to My words that the Prophet speaks in My Name, I Myself will call Him to account." John 14:23,24: Jesus says, "If anyone loves Me, He will OBEY MY TEACHING**! My Father will love Him, and we will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me will not obey My teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent Me."
8/1/2017 1:02:03 PM	Do As the Bereans Did Acts 17:11 and Practice Heb 13:1
prophetic774 Winter Haven, FL 67, joined Feb. 2011	GOD'S WORD {CONTINUED} THE GREAT COMMISSION: Matthew 28:18-20: Jesus says, “All authority in heaven and on EARTH has been given to Me {Not some RC Pope}. Therefore go and make disciples of ALL NATIONS...teaching them to OBEY EVERYTHING* I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very END OF THE AGE!” I Peter 1:23-25: You have been BORN AGAIN THROUGH THE LIVING AND ENDURING WORD OF GOD!! All men are like grass, and all their glory is like the flowers of the field, the grass withers and the flowers fall, but the WORD OF THE LORD STANDS FOREVER. And this is the WORD that was preached to you. Matthew 24:35: Jesus says, Heaven and earth will pass away, but MY WORDS WILL NEVER PASS AWAY!" I John 2:3-5: We know we have come to know Him {Jesus} if we obey His commands. The man who says, "I know Him," but does not do what He commands is a liar and the truth is not in him. But if anyone OBEYS HIS WORD, God's love is truly made complete in him! Matthew 4:4: Jesus says, "Man does not live on bread alone, but on EVERY WORD FROM THE MOUTH OF GOD!" Matthew 7:24,26: Jesus says, "Everyone who hears these WORDS OF MINE and PUTS THEM INTO PRACTICE is like a wise man who built his house on a Rock... But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand." Luke 8:21: Jesus says, "My mother and brothers are those who hears GOD'S WORD and PUTS THEM INTO PRACTICE!" James 1:22,25: Do not merely listen to the WORD, and so deceive yourselves. DO WHAT IT SAYS... The man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, BUT DOING IT, he will be blessed in what he does. Matthew 13:23: Jesus says, "But the one who received the seed that fell on good soil is the man who hears the WORD AND UNDERSTANDS IT. He produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown." John 15:1,2,5,16: Jesus says, "I am the True Vine and my Father is the Gardener. He cuts off every branch in Me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit He prunes so that it will be even more fruitful!... This is to my Father's glory that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be My disciples!... You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit--fruit that will last!" Luke 8:15: Jesus says, "But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the WORD, retain it, and by perseverance produce a crop." John 17:17: Jesus prays to His Father, "Sanctify them by the Truth, YOUR WORD IS TRUTH!" Acts 20:32: Paul says, "Now I commit you to God and to the WORD OF HIS GRACE, which can build you up and give you an inheritance among all those who are sanctified!" Romans 10:17: Consequently, FAITH COMES FROM HEARING THE MESSAGE, and the message is heard THROUGH THE WORD OF CHRIST! James 1:18; He chose to give us BIRTH THROUGH THE WORD of Truth!! I Corinthians 15:2: By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the WORD preached to you. Otherwise you have believed in vain! 2 Corinthians 2:17: Unlike so many, we do not peddle the WORD OF GOD for profit! 2 Corinthians 4:2: We do not use deception, nor do we distort the WORD OF GOD! Ephesians 1:`13: You also were included in Christ WHEN you heard the WORD of Truth, the gospel of your salvation. Ephesians 2:17: Take the sword of the Spirit, which is the WORD OF GOD! Colossians 1:25: I have become its servant by the commission God gave to me to present to you the WORD OF GOD IN ALL ITS FULLNESS! Colossians 3:16: Let the WORD OF CHRIST dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom! I Thessalonians 2:13: We thank God continually because, when you received the WORD OF GOD, which you heard from us, you received it not as the word of men, but as it actually is, the WORD OF GOD! 2 Timothy 2:15: Do your best to present yourselves to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who CORRECTLY HANDLES THE WORD of truth! 2 Timothy 3:15,16: 4:1,2: You have known the HOLY SCRIPTURES,which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. ALL SCRIPTURE IS GOD-BREATHED and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of His appearing and His kingdom, I give you this charge: PREACH THE WORD!! {WHICH IS THE ENTIRE NEW COVENANT AND NEW TESTAMENT**!!}
8/1/2017 2:16:10 PM	Do As the Bereans Did Acts 17:11 and Practice Heb 13:1
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 65, joined Feb. 2008	Scripture indeed is very important, but remember who put the scripture together in the first place (the Catholic Church).
8/2/2017 1:17:53 AM	Do As the Bereans Did Acts 17:11 and Practice Heb 13:1
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	Please do not 'spam' my thread, Prophetic. You already posted the same posts earlier, without any new comments. That is inappropriate and your posts have been flagged. If you desire to comment further with new posts or comment on my differing with what you wrote, then that would be appropriate. Please stay on topic. Thanks. Thanks for sharing your opinion, Lud, which I & many millions disagree. Please refrain from repeating this statement also as it is a form of spamming as well, so we can stick to the topic of the thread. The topic is examining the Scriptures (Acts 17:11) to see if my connecting the dots illustration on the reality of places in the SPIRITUAL REALM after one physically dies where people go to (heaven with paradise, hades and gehenna or the lake of fire), showing there is comfort for the believers there & punishment, torments, shame & spiritual fire for the unbelieving. Death is a difficult subject to discuss but it is a necessary one, as we all will face it & some of us sooner than later & we should know what the Scriptures teach about what death is, how it came about, where we go when we die & what happens afterwards. Heb 10:27 It is appointed unto men to die ONCE & after that comes judgment. There are no second chances, there are no reincarnations, death is appointed for all. It is inescapable unless a miracle occurs by God, to postpone it. Death came into the world through one man, Adam. Escape from death & the 2nd death & being made alive when dead in our trespasses & sins is made available through one, the Lord Jesus Christ. Repentance & faith in His being able to save & forgive & regenerate & baptize us in the Holy Spirit, is necessary to be set free from the law of sin & death & the 2nd Death. Back to the topic & conclusions on my connecting the dot illustration of 5 points & the reality of both spiritual life & physical life & spiritual death & physical death & what happens afterwards. Recap: Gen 2:7 And breathed into his nostrils THE BREATH OF LIVES (it is in the plural!) physical life = physical breath from God, breathing air through our nostrils. As long as we draw breath, we live physically. This same breath is given to other creatures as well. spiritual life = spiritual breath from the God Who IS SPIRIT; & creating a spirit within each person, so we might experience SPIRITUAL LIFE IN RIGHT RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD & OTHERS. This comes through spiritual regeneration, being born again of God, FROM ABOVE. This is the mystery that God progressively reveals in the Scriptures. When we sin, we die spiritually, just as Adam & Eve did when they disobeyed God's commandment at the beginning. We become spiritually dead in our trespasses & sins (Eph 2:1-4), even though we walk about physically alive. We are now under the law of sin & death. (Gen 2:17 vs the lie, Gen 3:1-4; Ex 10:17; Luke 9:60; Rom 5:12; 6:16; 8:2; I Cor 15:56; James 1:5; Eph 2:1-10; John 8:31-36; etc.) But when regenerated, we are set free from that law & now come under the Law of the Spirit of life & in Christ, we are set free from having to sin & cross over from spiritual death & into spiritual life, the very life of God. Amen! John 3:36 He who has faith in the Son has eternal life; but he who has not faith in the Son will NOT SEE LIFE, but God's wrath remains on him. The wicked & unbelieving are UNDER a number of things: under the law of sin & death (Rom 8:2) under law not grace (I Tim 1:6-9) under the wrath of God (John 3:36; Eph 4:2) under the bondage to sin (John 8:34) under condemnation for their unbelief & spiritually dead in their habitually practiced trespasses & sins (John 3:14-21; Eph 4:1-4; Luke 9:60) The believer is not under any of these but has been set free! Hallelujah! John 5:24-29 Truly, truly I tell U, whoever hears My word & believes Him who sent Me HAS eternal life & will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. 25Truly, truly I tell you, a time is coming AND HAS NOW COME--when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God & those who hear will live. 26For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man. 28“Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned. You will notice the following observations in the above passage: Double emphatic--truly, truly--pay extra attention to these foundational truths I speak!! Whoever (anyone) who hears (& thus understands) & believes what I am saying & what the Father has testified concerning Me as the Savior & Lord of life--at that moment of believing faith & confession--POSSESSES ETERNAL LIFE. Those who hear & believe & presently possess eternal life will NOT come into the judgment (of condemnation, for those who do not believe), since they are no longer UNDER CONDEMNATION. (John 3:14-21) Those who hear, believe, presently possess eternal life & are no longer under the judgment of condemnation are the ones who have CROSSED OVER FROM SPIRITUAL DEATH IN UNBELIEF & by believing have been regenerated & made ALIVE--given spiritual life--the very life of God. Scripture states this another way: by grace through faith we have been DELIVERED & TRANSFERRED out of the kingdom or dominion of darkness, following the devil as children of wrath--and have been transferred into the kingdom of God, the kingdom of life & light--into the kingdom of the Father's beloved Son! (Col 1:12,13) Again Jesus reiterates the double emphatic--pay very close attention to the contrast of vs 25 with vs 28 One talks about the present tense (vs 25): the time has now come when this is presently happening--vs--the time will come in the future at the resurrection (vs. 28) (continued)

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