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5/26/2017 3:54:55 PM Which atrocities are worst?  

followjesusonly
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (12,544)
Kingman, AZ
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*
Headlines:

Egypt: At least 28 dead as gunmen fire on bus carrying Coptic Christians

U.S. Airstrike Killed Over 100 Civilians in Mosul, Pentagon Says




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5/26/2017 5:26:53 PM Which atrocities are worst?  
lordclarence
South Yorkshire
United Kingdom
59, joined Mar. 2013


Warfare is a degraded state of human interactions where lots of bad sh*t happens, but by the usual norms of how these things proceed, deliberate killing of civilians is considered worse than the accidental killing of civilians during attacks against military targets. The former condition is often euphemistically termed as collateral damage. According to the account I'm reading, in the Mosul attack the civilian deaths are thought to be the result of a 500 pound American dropped bomb igniting more explosives owned by ISIS.

There was a secondary explosion in the back side of the building that caused the building to collapse. Expert analysis and modeling found that the explosives needed to bring down the building would be more than 4 times what was delivered by the GBU-38.

The U.S. did strike the building and civilians were among the dead. The building was leveled because of explosives that ISIS had put inside. The investigation could not determine whether the civilians were being held hostage in the building nor could it determine definitively whether the building was a storage facility for ISIS explosives or whether it was specifically rigged to collapse.
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/pentagon-officials-say-u-s-airstrike-killed-over-100-civilians-n764541



[Edited 5/26/2017 5:28:54 PM ]

5/26/2017 5:32:38 PM Which atrocities are worst?  
lordclarence
South Yorkshire
United Kingdom
59, joined Mar. 2013


.
Quote from lordclarence:
The former condition is often euphemistically termed as collateral damage

I mean latter.

5/26/2017 6:07:45 PM Which atrocities are worst?  

followjesusonly
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (12,544)
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Quote from lordclarence:
Warfare is a degraded state of human interactions where lots of bad sh*t happens, but by the usual norms of how these things proceed, deliberate killing of civilians is considered worse than the accidental killing of civilians during attacks against military targets. The former condition is often euphemistically termed as collateral damage. According to the account I'm reading, in the Mosul attack the civilian deaths are thought to be the result of a 500 pound American dropped bomb igniting more explosives owned by ISIS.


Yes, yes, I know all that. However, dropping bombs is not "accidental." Dropping bombs is deliberate, rolling the dice and saying, "We don't know who's going to be killed if anyone, maybe innocent women and children, maybe there will be secondary explosions and collateral damage, we just don't know but we're going to drop them anyway. Whatever happens, we'll say it was an accident."

It's like your Manchester bomber, he probably thought, 'I don't know who or how many my bomb is going to kill, but I'm going to do it anyway.' "War is Hell." Maybe if we stopped bombing them in their countries (Mosul? Why don't we get out of their business?), they'd stop bombing you in yours. Who knows? It might be worth a shot, so to speak. Or we can all keep trying to kill our way out of these conundrums. I know, let's all "pray for peace" [sit on our a** and do nothing] as Ludlow suggests.

Ludlow says:
"Yes, I speak for God."

5/26/2017 6:43:52 PM Which atrocities are worst?  
lordclarence
South Yorkshire
United Kingdom
59, joined Mar. 2013


.
Quote from followjesusonly:
Yes, yes, I know all that. However, dropping bombs is not "accidental." Dropping bombs is deliberate, rolling the dice and saying, "We don't know who's going to be killed if anyone, maybe innocent women and children, maybe there will be secondary explosions and collateral damage, we just don't know but we're going to drop them anyway. Whatever happens, we'll say it was an accident."

It's like your Manchester bomber, he probably thought, 'I don't know who or how many my bomb is going to kill, but I'm going to do it anyway.' "War is Hell." Maybe if we stopped bombing them in their countries (Mosul? Why don't we get out of their business?), they'd stop bombing you in yours. Who knows? It might be worth a shot, so to speak. Or we can all keep trying to kill our way out of these conundrums. I know, let's all "pray for peace" [sit on our a** and do nothing] as Ludlow suggests.

Ludlow says:
"Yes, I speak for God."

The Manchester bomber was knowingly targeting civilians - particularly females rather than males, as can be ascertained from the fact that these people are Ariana Grande's typical audience base. Men who set out to deliberately kill women inevitably seem particularly heinous individuals.

We have an election for Prime Minister going on at present. Jeremy Corbyn, the Labour candidate, who attained the leadership role in an extraordinary grass roots led manner, and is considered extremely left wing and unlikely to do well, made a speech yesterday arguing that the risks from terrorism could be reduced if foreign policy was conducted very differently, with Britain refraining from using its forces in situations where clear benefits to the cause of increased peace cannot be achieved. But detractors are painting him as an appeaser of terrorists. I'm agnostic and undecided on this. Needless to say, the Murdoch controlled media that will probably determine the result of the election would like Britain to remain America's lapdog and doing whatever the Military Industrial Complex™ deems the correct and necessary military behaviours, but it's nice to hear a dissenting view.



[Edited 5/26/2017 6:46:40 PM ]

5/27/2017 9:59:13 PM Which atrocities are worst?  
asanb
Over 4,000 Posts! (5,455)
Sanbornton, NH
61, joined Jul. 2012


There is national Karma and there is personal Karma. Those who commit these atrocities will suffer, just as those who order the act, and to some extent the nation that supports idiots who prefer violence over diplomacy. A soldier following orders is less indebted than the war mongering leader. And Karma is incurred by sins of omission, Those who don't bother to take an interest in what is done in their name and live under it's shadow will have the ground sink around them also.

5/29/2017 1:42:45 AM Which atrocities are worst?  

followjesusonly
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (12,544)
Kingman, AZ
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Quote from asanb:
There is national Karma and there is personal Karma. Those who commit these atrocities will suffer, just as those who order the act, and to some extent the nation that supports idiots who prefer violence over diplomacy. A soldier following orders is less indebted than the war mongering leader. And Karma is incurred by sins of omission, Those who don't bother to take an interest in what is done in their name and live under it's shadow will have the ground sink around them also.


There is no such thing as Karma, and there is no universe mechanism by which it would work. No Karma, no reincarnation. Just wishful thinking.

5/29/2017 6:24:27 AM Which atrocities are worst?  
lordclarence
South Yorkshire
United Kingdom
59, joined Mar. 2013


.
Quote from followjesusonly:
There is no such thing as Karma, and there is no universe mechanism by which it would work. No Karma, no reincarnation. Just wishful thinking.

The same could be said of Christianized eternal hellfire and annihilationist visions of an afterlife - and the afterlife idea in general.



[Edited 5/29/2017 6:25:07 AM ]

5/29/2017 2:46:03 PM Which atrocities are worst?  

followjesusonly
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (12,544)
Kingman, AZ
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Quote from lordclarence:
.
Quote from followjesusonly:
There is no such thing as Karma, and there is no universe mechanism by which it would work. No Karma, no reincarnation. Just wishful thinking.

The same could be said of Christianized eternal hellfire and annihilationist visions of an afterlife - and the afterlife idea in general.


No disagreement here (that the same could be said). However I don't believe in "Christianized eternal helllfire" and I'm not sure what "annihilationist visions of an afterlife" is. It can't be much of an afterlife if one is annihilated. Maybe that outcome, if it is one, is the exception rather than the rule. Let's hope. LOL. Further, at least in the Christian paradigm belief there is a "person in charge" of the system, God, making it work. What person or mechanism makes reincarnation and Karma work in asanb's belief? Does asanb even believe in a God? Has he said? I don't know. Maybe I missed it. All I know of him from what he has said is that he follows gurus and he eschews books. I think he said he shoots varmints with a 22 rifle from his porch in the woods too, but maybe I'm not remembering that correctly.

That would be a good new thread: "What makes Karma and reincarnation work?"

5/30/2017 10:27:50 AM Which atrocities are worst?  
lordclarence
South Yorkshire
United Kingdom
59, joined Mar. 2013


.
Quote from followjesusonly:
It can't be much of an afterlife if one is annihilated.

True. Christian annihilationism is a more humane belief option than Lud's favourite of eternal hellfire, in which the dead are resurrected to face Judgement with those that pass the test getting to live forever in heaven or on a renewed earth while those failing to pass muster by accepting Jesus as their personal Saviour or during their earthly lives failing to have presented the approved prosocial behaviours towards those less fortunate are subjected to a second death that results in their staying dead permanently. The UB presents a wordy, bureaucratic version of the doctrine with its "personality extinction" idea.

Maybe that outcome, if it is one, is the exception rather than the rule. Let's hope. LOL. Further, at least in the Christian paradigm belief there is a "person in charge" of the system, God, making it work. What person or mechanism makes reincarnation and Karma work in asanb's belief?

I'm not familiar with all the details of asanb's belief system but it sounds like a form of Hinduism, so I expect Brahman is the principal deity to which souls are ascending through a process of purifying themselves by working off bad karma and becoming progressively more godlike in a series of incarnations. It seems likely to me that the UB author was himself influenced by Indian religion and/or New Age literature, hence use of terms like "ascension" and "cosmic consciousness". The UB has departed souls or spirits embarking on a so-called "universe career" directed at fusing with the deity, but instead of successive cycles of birth, death and rebirth, the UBites, after a stint in the Mansion worlds (an idea improvised from a verse where Jesus says his father has many mansions), go through a cycle of learning "spiritual" stuff at a succession of "spiritual" universities located on a succession of other planets - presumably until they're "spiritual" enough to join the UB god at his luxury pad in Paradise. The whole thing seems loosely based on the Protestant work ethic of doing one's best to get ahead and earn that promotion. So it's a slightly more square idea that the Hindu one, but not all that much different in my opinion. And probably not what the historical Jesus believed. So it hardly seems fair for you to sneer and condemn it as unworkable rubbish.

5/30/2017 1:26:47 PM Which atrocities are worst?  

rey2140
Sullivan, OH
48, joined Sep. 2013


Karma is nothing more than a word to describe the effects of choices made in a lifetime.
The effects of karma can be immediate or a next lifetime.
An example of immediate karma could be any decision made, and the effect of that decision is felt in the present life.
An example of next lifetime karma can be lifetime lifestyles that are deemed maybe not good, and there is no sense to make it right before death, the effects will catch up in the next life til learning to overcome is matured.

This is as short answered I could make it.

5/30/2017 3:08:57 PM Which atrocities are worst?  

followjesusonly
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (12,544)
Kingman, AZ
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Quote from lordclarence:
.
Quote from followjesusonly:
It can't be much of an afterlife if one is annihilated.

True. Christian annihilationism is a more humane belief option than Lud's favourite of eternal hellfire, in which the dead are resurrected to face Judgement with those that pass the test getting to live forever in heaven or on a renewed earth while those failing to pass muster by accepting Jesus as their personal Saviour or during their earthly lives failing to have presented the approved prosocial behaviours towards those less fortunate are subjected to a second death that results in their staying dead permanently. The UB presents a wordy, bureaucratic version of the doctrine with its "personality extinction" idea.


The Urantia Book does have "personality extinction" but it's more self-inflicted suicide than anything. It has nothing to do with "those failing to pass muster by accepting Jesus as their personal Saviour or during their earthly lives failing to have presented the approved prosocial behaviours towards those less fortunate are subjected to a second death."

And please, don't conflate the Christian slogan of "accepting Jesus as your personal savior" with The Urantia Book. Nor is there any time limit ("during their earthly life" as you said) put on any of this in The Urantia Book. IN FACT, there is no such time limit in the bible either as far as I can see. The time limit, "during their earthly life," is a DOCTRINE OF MEN.

196:0.13 Jesus does not require his disciples to believe in him but rather to believe with him, believe in the reality of the love of God and in full confidence accept the security of the assurance of sonship with the heavenly Father.

5/30/2017 3:12:07 PM Which atrocities are worst?  

followjesusonly
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (12,544)
Kingman, AZ
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Quote from rey2140:
Karma is nothing more than a word to describe the effects of choices made in a lifetime.
The effects of karma can be immediate or a next lifetime.
An example of immediate karma could be any decision made, and the effect of that decision is felt in the present life.
An example of next lifetime karma can be lifetime lifestyles that are deemed maybe not good, and there is no sense to make it right before death, the effects will catch up in the next life til learning to overcome is matured.

This is as short answered I could make it.


It's good.

5/30/2017 8:22:25 PM Which atrocities are worst?  
lordclarence
South Yorkshire
United Kingdom
59, joined Mar. 2013


.
Quote from followjesusonly:
The Urantia Book does have "personality extinction" but it's more self-inflicted suicide than anything. It has nothing to do with "those failing to pass muster by accepting Jesus as their personal Saviour or during their earthly lives failing to have presented the approved prosocial behaviours towards those less fortunate are subjected to a second death."

And please, don't conflate the Christian slogan of "accepting Jesus as your personal savior" with The Urantia Book.

I'm aware that the UB rejects the Jesus as sin sacrifice idea, but it does do a bureaucratically detailed version of Christian annihilationism. At least the judicial process is detailed. There appears to be no actual contact between the offender and the celestial legal system during the offending phase. Which seems poor. Even an overdue library book would be expected to merit some kind of contact with the borrower before a fine is imposed, but there's no mention here of any warnings being issued before sentence is passed. Am I correct in thinking the bolded section means the accused person, instead of croaking and waking up in the "mansion worlds" with the good guys, will "stay in their grave", KB style, until the end of a planetary dispensation, whatever that is. And this is a version of the soul sleep doctrine that also appears in 7th Day Adventism? Is the "end of as planetary dispensation" analogous to what the Bible describes as the Resurrection?

(37.1) 2:3.3 Cessation of existence is usually decreed at the dispensational or epochal adjudication of the realm or realms. On a world such as Urantia it comes at the end of a planetary dispensation. Cessation of existence can be decreed at such times by co-ordinate action of all tribunals of jurisdiction, extending from the planetary council up through the courts of the Creator Son to the judgment tribunals of the Ancients of Days. The mandate of dissolution originates in the higher courts of the superuniverse following an unbroken confirmation of the indictment originating on the sphere of the wrongdoer’s residence; and then, when sentence of extinction has been confirmed on high, the execution is by the direct act of those judges residential on, and operating from, the headquarters of the superuniverse.

( 37.2) 2:3.4 When this sentence is finally confirmed, the sin-identified being instantly becomes as though he had not been. There is no resurrection from such a fate; it is everlasting and eternal. The living energy factors of identity are resolved by the transformations of time and the metamorphoses of space into the cosmic potentials whence they once emerged. As for the personality of the iniquitous one, it is deprived of a continuing life vehicle by the creature’s failure to make those choices and final decisions which would have assured eternal life. When the continued embrace of sin by the associated mind culminates in complete self-identification with iniquity, then upon the cessation of life, upon cosmic dissolution, such an isolated personality is absorbed into the oversoul of creation, becoming a part of the evolving experience of the Supreme Being. Never again does it appear as a personality; its identity becomes as though it had never been. In the case of an Adjuster-indwelt personality, the experiential spirit values survive in the reality of the continuing Adjuster.


Quote from followjesusonly:
Nor is there any time limit ("during their earthly life" as you said) put on any of this in The Urantia Book. IN FACT, there is no such time limit in the bible either as far as I can see. The time limit, "during their earthly life," is a DOCTRINE OF MEN.

My interpretation is that a person is selected for "personality extinction" during their earthly life and is then denied an immediate continuation of life after death in the Mansion Worlds. Instead of this, they face what appears to be a period of soul sleep followed by the UB equivalent of an eventual resurrection for judgement.

196:0.13 Jesus does not require his disciples to believe in him but rather to believe with him, believe in the reality of the love of God and in full confidence accept the security of the assurance of sonship with the heavenly Father.

Isn't that one of those "thought gems" the UB author has purloined from a 20th century author?

Ah, thought so.





[Edited 5/30/2017 8:24:24 PM ]

5/30/2017 9:14:41 PM Which atrocities are worst?  
asanb
Over 4,000 Posts! (5,455)
Sanbornton, NH
61, joined Jul. 2012


Quote from followjesusonly:
No disagreement here (that the same could be said). However I don't believe in "Christianized eternal helllfire" and I'm not sure what "annihilationist visions of an afterlife" is. It can't be much of an afterlife if one is annihilated. Maybe that outcome, if it is one, is the exception rather than the rule. Let's hope. LOL. Further, at least in the Christian paradigm belief there is a "person in charge" of the system, God, making it work. What person or mechanism makes reincarnation and Karma work in asanb's belief? Does asanb even believe in a God? Has he said? I don't know. Maybe I missed it. All I know of him from what he has said is that he follows gurus and he eschews books. I think he said he shoots varmints with a 22 rifle from his porch in the woods too, but maybe I'm not remembering that correctly.

That would be a good new thread: "What makes Karma and reincarnation work?"


Sant Mat, Rhada Suami. look it up.

5/30/2017 9:21:36 PM Which atrocities are worst?  
asanb
Over 4,000 Posts! (5,455)
Sanbornton, NH
61, joined Jul. 2012


Karma:

http://www.ruhanisatsangusa.org/pdf/WOL-MOD.pdf

Surat Shabd Yoga:

http://www.ruhanisatsangusa.org/pdf/SuratShabdYoga.pdf