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12/8/2010 5:10:30 PM When was 'hell' created?  

bigd9832
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Someone here claims that 'hell' always existed, like God. So that would put 'hell' on the same level as God, eternal.

I see where the Scriptures say that Heaven and Earth was created.

So when did God make 'hell?'

Or did someone else do it?




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12/8/2010 6:11:09 PM When was 'hell' created?  
needinhelp
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Hell was created, the day that Abel was killed by his brother Cain.

12/8/2010 7:46:48 PM When was 'hell' created?  
rlm68
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Between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2. Lucifer was overseer of first original creation. He lied about God to those human on earth and to 1/3 of God's Angels. As result Lucifer was cast out of heaven and into hell as Satan and then the first creation was destroyed with the Luciferian flood. When you read Genesis 1:2 it speaks about forming land out of the deep. If your God and creating earth for first time you would not completely flood it and say it is good. There are plenty of scripture to verify this taking place in both Old and New Testaments. Im not at a place where I have access to give them.



[Edited 12/8/2010 7:49:04 PM ]

12/8/2010 9:50:56 PM When was 'hell' created?  
onemrmajestic
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THE TESTIMONY OF TRADITION
But someone will say, You ignore entirely the testimony of tradition. But, we reply, of what value is tradition if it contradicts God’s Word? For a teaching to be true it must be according ‘to the law and to the testimony’, for ‘God’s word is truth’. Jesus condemned the religious leaders of his day because they sought to nullify God’s commandments by their tradition, and Paul said: “For God is true, and every man is a liar,” if he contradicts God’s Word.—Isa. 8:20, Dy; Mark 7:9; John 17:17; Rom. 3:4, Cath. Confrat.
The mere fact that some early church “fathers” believed something akin to purgatory does not prove that Jesus and his apostles did, especially in the complete absence of any mention of it in the “New Testament”. Did not Paul warn that there would be a falling away? (Acts 20:29, 30, Cath. Confrat.) Peter spoke of some distorting the Scriptures in his day, and John singled out one that was ambitious.—2 Thess. 2:3-7; 2 Pet. 3:16; 3 John 9, Cath. Confrat.
And where did the church “fathers” get the idea of purgatory since it is not to be found in the Bible? From pagan sources. According to the Catholic Encyclopedia the pagans had a belief similar to purgatory. And Professor Hislop gives proof that the ancient Egyptians, the Greeks and the Romans believed in it, quoting Virgil, Plato and others.
Common sense does not demand a purgatory. Common sense rejects it!

12/10/2010 3:04:14 AM When was 'hell' created?  

bigd9832
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (19,379)
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63, joined Oct. 2007


Quote from needinhelp:
Hell was created, the day that Abel was killed by his brother Cain.


Really? What is the chapter and verse is that in?

Quote from rlm68:
Between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2. Lucifer was overseer of first original creation. He lied about God to those human on earth and to 1/3 of God's Angels. As result Lucifer was cast out of heaven and into hell as Satan and then the first creation was destroyed with the Luciferian flood. When you read Genesis 1:2 it speaks about forming land out of the deep. If your God and creating earth for first time you would not completely flood it and say it is good. There are plenty of scripture to verify this taking place in both Old and New Testaments. Im not at a place where I have access to give them.


AV Gn 1:1 . In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

CLV Gn 1:1 IN A BEGINNING Created by the Elohim were the heavens and the earth.
2 Yet the earth became a chaos and vacant, and darkness was on the surface of the submerged chaos. Yet the spirit of the Elohim is vibrating over the surface of the water.


I see where Haven and Earth are created in Gen. 1:1.

No... I don't see where 'hell' is created.

If there are "plenty of scripture to verify" the creation of 'hell,' then it should be pretty easy to post s few here.

So far, no one has provided Scriptural evidence that 'hell' was created.

I am not sure you are speaking the same language as I am.

I asked when was 'hell' created. I don't see anything in Gen1:2 about Lucifer or angles or even humans. As humans are not mentioned I must assume that they have not as yet arrived.

The question is...

Where in the Scriptures, was 'hell' created?

12/10/2010 7:30:23 AM When was 'hell' created?  
dunrich3
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Book of Genesis: Chapter 1
King James Version
1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
1:10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
1:13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
1:22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
1:23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

12/10/2010 7:35:21 AM When was 'hell' created?  
dunrich3
Over 4,000 Posts! (4,511)
Brantford, ON
62, joined Feb. 2010


I made sure I used the KJV and not some Satanic translation,lol.

The creation story, clearly mentions, even the Moon and Sun, but no Hell.

You know what I think?

Maybe he did it on the 7th day?

He woke up planning a nice day off. Then like Homer Simpson, slapped his head and went. doh! fterall, I am going to create millions of people so I can torture them for all eternity for not learning about my love.

Forgot the most important part, so he sliiped in and made it.

Thats why all the confusion about what day, 6th or 7th. Oh, but you had better do your rest on the right day too, or its Hell for sure!

12/10/2010 8:29:52 AM When was 'hell' created?  
carsonguy1951
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Carson City, NV
64, joined Sep. 2008


Quote from bigd9832:
The question is...

Where in the Scriptures, was 'hell' created?


The Bible does not say when a whole lot of specific things were created.... and picking the one is a question only for sophomoric debate.... Rather like when did you stop beating your wife?

When were comets created? The Bible does not say except that God created everything John 1:3 "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being."

Thus, in John 1, we know who created a place for eternal punishment howbeit not specifically on what day of creation. Again, it is a sophomoric and meaningless debate question.

If God created all things, then He created the place where He sends the souls of those who He judges to be unrighteous or who hate Him or rebel against Him. As stated before, the word "hell" is a convenient catchall word for that place as various scriptures use different words...in Mt 25, it is a place of eternal punishment.

My view, hell is a spiritual place in the way like Heaven is a spiritual place.

I suspect those who are so vocal in denying the existence of the place of torment that our Lord Jesus taught so much about do so out of fear they will find themselves there...

Rather like the man who fuddges or outright lies on his tax return fears a letter from the IRS.

Of course, folks deny eternal punishment just like the person who smokes cigarettes or takes Meth. When starting, those folks will deny they will get addicted and may deny it when they are addicted telling everyone they can quit anytime they like.



[Edited 12/10/2010 8:34:50 AM ]

12/10/2010 2:30:49 PM When was 'hell' created?  
dunrich3
Over 4,000 Posts! (4,511)
Brantford, ON
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My view, hell is a spiritual place in the way like Heaven is a spiritual place.


So, it is not a physical burning place as taught by religious doctrine in so many Churches.

12/10/2010 3:19:55 PM When was 'hell' created?  
needinhelp
Over 4,000 Posts! (5,591)
Jacksonville, FL
60, joined Oct. 2010


Quote from bigd9832:

from needinhelp:
Hell was created, the day that Abel was killed by his brother Cain.


Really? What is the chapter and verse is that in?


You telling me you're that ignorant to know when Abel was killed? Though you was the scholar extraordinaire here since you have 33 copies of the scriptures.

If you believe that hell is the hidden place of the dead, and not a receptical full of fire and torment and punishment, then obviously hell started/was created, the day Abel died, the first death mentioned in scripture, and they buried him.

12/10/2010 3:34:12 PM When was 'hell' created?  
carsonguy1951
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Carson City, NV
64, joined Sep. 2008


Quote from dunrich3:
So, it is not a physical burning place as taught by religious doctrine in so many Churches.


Which churches teach it is a physical place?

Most everyone believes the body returns to the earth...dust to dust and all that goes with that. I would think most churches believe it is the soul that is eternal and subject to punishment.

I know many churches believe that punishment is actual...not metaphoric so perhaps you have confused actual punishment with it being an actual place.

In modern physics, some folks claim that parallel universes can co-exist in the same physical space. Who knows if hell could be co-existing here with us know in such a place....

I have never been taught by anyone in any of the dozens of churches I have attended that hell is in side the center of the earth or that heaven is just to the left of Mars...

12/10/2010 3:47:12 PM When was 'hell' created?  

ludlowlowell
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God must have created Hell about the time that Lucifer and his fellow rebellious angels fell from grace, as Jesus says in Matthew 25:41 "...Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

So many people are perfectly willing to take Jesus at His word whenever He talks about something good and pleasant, like love, peace, brotherhood, Heaven, etc. But whenever He says something a little on the harsh side, you know, kind of like He is Almighty God or something, well, then a lot of people will want to say, oh, Jesus didn't really say that, or, it was mistranslated, or, I don't interpret it that way (these are the same people who sternly insist on the inerrancy of scripture). The reality is that Jesus mentioned Hell more often than He mentioned Heaven.

What church, someone asked, teaches that Hell is a physical place? The Catholic Church, for one, does.

12/10/2010 6:50:36 PM When was 'hell' created?  
dunrich3
Over 4,000 Posts! (4,511)
Brantford, ON
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So, the Catholic Church teaches about a physical, burning Hell?

Not at its earleist years it did not. So, I guess the early church scholars and leaders were not inspired after all?

Many, documnets about Catholic doctrine, omitted any mention of hell as an eternal, burning place.

The Apostles Creed.
The version as we know it today, came into being sometime between 250 AD and 350AD.

It was mostly in Roman type, but some, what is in brackets was in Latin. The Latin was added after , sometime around 359 AD.

"I believe in God the Father Almighty (maker of heaven and earth) and it Jesus Christ his only son our Lord, who was (conceived) by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified (dead) and buried, (He descended into hell). The third day he arose again from the dead; he ascended into heaven and sitteth at the right hand of (God) the Father (Almighty). From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead. I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Holy (Catholic) Church; (the communion of saints) the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body; (and the life everlasting)5. Amen."

The Oldest Credal Statement.

The oldest credal statement by the Church of Rome says that Christ "shall come to judge the quick and the dead," and announces belief in the resurrection of the body. The oldest of the Greek constitutions declares belief in the "resurrection of the flesh, remission of sins, and the aionian life." And the Alexandrian statement speaks of "the life," but there is not a word of everlasting death or punishment in any of them. And this is all that the most ancient creeds contain on the subject.6

In a germinal form of the Apostle's Creed, Irenæus, A.D. 180, says that the judge, at the final assize, will cast the wicked into aionian fire. It is supposed that he used the word aionian, for the Greek in which he wrote has perished, and the Latin translation reads, "ignem aeternum."

As Origen uses the same word, and expressly says it denotes limited duration, Irenæus's testimony does not help the doctrine of endless punishment, nor can it be quoted to reinforce that of universal salvation. Dr. Beecher thinks that Irenæus taught "a final restitution of all things to unity and order by the annihilation of all the finally impenitent"7 --a pseudo-Universalism.

Tertullian's Belief.
Even Tertullian, born about A.D. 160, though his personal belief was fearfully partialistic, could not assert that his pagan-born doctrine was generally accepted by Christians, and when he formed a creed for general acceptance he entirely omitted his lurid theology. It will be seen that Tertullian's creed like that of Irenæus is one of the earlier forms of the so-called Apostles' Creed: 8 " We believe in only one God, omnipotent, maker of the world, and his son Jesus Christ, born of the Virgin Mary, crucified under Pontius Pilate, raised from the dead the third day, received into the heavens, now sitting at the right hand of the Father, and who shall come to judge the living and the dead, through the resurrection of the flesh." Tertullian did not put his private belief into his creed, and at that time he had not discovered that worst of dogmas relating to man, total depravity. If fact, he states the opposite. He says: "There is a portion of God in the soul. In the worst there is something good, and in the best something bad." Neander says that Tertullian "held original goodness to be indelible."

The Nicene Creed.
The next oldest creed, the first declaration authorized by a consensus of the whole church, was the Nicene, A.D. 325; completed in 381 at Constantinopole. Its sole reference to the future world is in these words: "I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world (æon) to come." It does not contain a syllable referring to endless punishment, though the doctrine was then professed by a portion of the church, and was insisted upon by some, though it was not generally enough held to be stated as the average belief.

So dominant was the influence of the Greek fathers, who had learned Christianity in their native tongue, in the language in which it was announced, and so little had Tertullian's cruel ideas prevailed, that it was not even attempted to make the horrid sentiment a part of the creed of the church. Moreover, Gregory Nazianzen presided over the council in Constantinople, in which the Nicean creed was finally shaped--the Niceo-Constantinopolitan creed--and as he was a Universalist, and as the clause, "I believe in the life of the world to come," was added by Gregory of Nyssa, an "unflinching advocate of extreme Universalism, and the very flower of orthodoxy," it must be apparent that the consensus of Christian sentiment was not yet anti-Universalistic.


Cont~d below/

12/10/2010 6:51:02 PM When was 'hell' created?  
dunrich3
Over 4,000 Posts! (4,511)
Brantford, ON
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General Sentiment in the Fourth Century.
This the general sentiment in the church from 325 A.D. to 381 A.D. demanded that the life beyond the grave must be stated, and as there is no hint of the existence of a world of torment, how can the conclusion be escaped that Christian faith did not then include the thought of endless woe? Would a council, composed even in part of believers in endless torment, permit a Universalist to preside, and another to shape its creed, and not even attempt to give expression to that idea? Is not the Nicene creed a witness, in what it does not say, to the broader faith that must have been the religion of the century that adopted it?

It is historical (See Socrates's Ecclesiastical History) that the four great General Councils held in the first four centuries--those at Nice, Constantinople, Ephesus, and Chalcedon--gave expression to no condemnation of universal restoration, though, as will be shown, the doctrine had been prevalent all along.

In the Nicene creed adopted A.D. 325, by three hundred and twenty to two hundred and eighteen bishops, the only reference to the future world is where it is said that Christ "will come again to judge the living and the dead." This is the original form, subsequently changed. A.D. 341 the assembled bishops at Antioch made a declaration of faith in which these words occur: "The Lord Jesus Christ will come again with glory and power to judge the living and the dead." A.D. 346 the bishops presented a declaration to the Emperor Constans affirming that Jesus Christ "shall come at the consummation of the ages, to judge the living and the dead, and render to every one according to his works." The synod at Rimini, A.D. 359, affirmed that Christ "descended into the lower parts of the earth, and disposed matters there, at the sight of whom the door-keepers trembled--and at the last day he will come in his Father's glory to render to every one according to his deeds." This declaration opens the gates of mercy by recognizing the proclamation of the Gospel to the dead, and, as it was believed that when Christ preached in Hades the doors were opened and all those in ward were released, the words recited at Rimini that he "disposed matters there," are very significant.

The Nicene and Constantinopolitan creeds, printed in one, will exhibit the nature of the changes made at Constantinople, and will show that the "life to come" and not the post-mortem woe of sinners, was the chief though with the early Christians. (The Nicene is here printed in Roman type, and the Constantinopolitan in Italic.)

The Niceo-Constantinopolitan Creed.
"We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of (heaven and earth, and) all things visible and invisible, and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds,) only begotten, that is, of the substance of the Father; God of God, Light of Light, very God of Very God, begotten not made; being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made, [transposed to the beginning] the things in heaven and things in earth. Who for us men and for our salvation came down (from heaven) and was incarnate (of the Holy Ghost and the Virgin Mary) and made man (and was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate), and suffered (and was buried), and rose again the third day (according to the Scriptures), who ascended into heaven (and sitteth on the right hand of the Father) and cometh again (in glory) to judge quick and dead (of whose kingdom there shall be no end). And in the Holy Ghost, (the Lord and giver of life, who proceedeth from the Father, who with the Father and the Son, together is worshipped and glorified; who spake by the prophets; in one holy Catholic, Apostolic Church; we acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come.)" 9

This last clause was not in the original Nicene creed, but was added in the Constantinopolitan. The literal rendering of the Greek is "the life of the age about to come."

The first Christians, it will be seen, said in their creeds, "I believe in the æonian life;" later, they modified the phrase "æonian life," to "the life of the coming æon," showing that the phrases are equivalent. But not a word of endless punishment. "The life of the age to come" was the first Christian creed, and later, Origen himself declares his belief in æonian punishment, and in æonian life beyond. How, then, could æonian punishment have been regarded as endless?

The differences of opinion that existed among the early Christians are easily accounted for, when we remember that they had been Jews or Heathens, who had brought from their previous religious associations all sorts of ideas, and were disposed to retain them and reconcile them with their new religion. Faith in Christ, and the acceptance of his teachings, could not at once eradicate the old opinions, which, in some cases, remained long, and caused honest Christians to differ from each other. As will be shown, while the Sibylline Oracles predisposed some of the fathers of Universalism, Philo gave others a tendency to the doctrine of annihilation, and Enoch to endless punishment.

Statements of the Early Councils.
Thus the credal declarations of the Christian church for almost four hundred years are entirely void of the lurid doctrine with which they afterwards blazed for more than a thousand years. The early creeds contain no hint of it, and no whisper of condemnation of the doctrine of universal restoration as taught by Clement, Origen, the Gregories, Basil the Great, and multitudes besides. Discussions and declarations on the Trinity, and contests over homoousion (consubstantial) and homoiousion (of like substance) engrossed the energy of disputants, and filled libraries with volumes, but the doctrine of the great fathers remained unchallenged. Neither the Concilium Nicæum, A.D. 325, nor the Concilium Constantinopolitanum, A.D. 381, nor the Concilium Chalcedonenese, A.D. 451, lisped a syllable of the doctrine of man's final woe. The reticence of all the ancient formularies of faith concerning endless punishment at the same time that the great fathers were proclaiming universal salvation, as appeared later on in these pages, is strong evidence that the former doctrine was not then accepted. It is apparent that the early Christian church did not dogmatize on man's final destiny. It was engrossed in getting established among men the great truth of God's universal Fatherhood, as revealed in the incarnation, "God in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself." Some taught endless punishment for a portion of mankind; others, the annihilation of the wicked; others had no definite opinion on human destiny; but the larger part, especially from Clement of Alexandria on for three hundred years, taught universal salvation. It is insupposable that endless punishment was a doctrine of the early church, when it is seen that not one of the early creeds embodied it" 11
www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html -



[Edited 12/10/2010 6:51:15 PM ]

12/10/2010 7:06:53 PM When was 'hell' created?  
needinhelp
Over 4,000 Posts! (5,591)
Jacksonville, FL
60, joined Oct. 2010


Quote from ludlowlowell:
God must have created Hell about the time that Lucifer and his fellow rebellious angels fell from grace, as Jesus says in Matthew 25:41 "...Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

So many people are perfectly willing to take Jesus at His word whenever He talks about something good and pleasant, like love, peace, brotherhood, Heaven, etc. But whenever He says something a little on the harsh side, you know, kind of like He is Almighty God or something, well, then a lot of people will want to say, oh, Jesus didn't really say that, or, it was mistranslated, or, I don't interpret it that way (these are the same people who sternly insist on the inerrancy of scripture). The reality is that Jesus mentioned Hell more often than He mentioned Heaven.

What church, someone asked, teaches that Hell is a physical place? The Catholic Church, for one, does.


Try this instead: The place that Jesus referred to is a place called Tartarus, and its description can be found only in the book of 2nd Peter.

(2 Peter 2:4-10) 4 Certainly if GOD did not hold back from punishing the angels that sinned, but, by throwing them into Tartarus, delivered them to pits of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment; 5 and he did not hold back from punishing an ancient world, but kept Noah, a preacher of righteousness, safe with seven others when he brought a deluge upon a world of ungodly people; 6 and by reducing the cities Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them, setting a pattern for ungodly persons of things to come; 7 and he delivered righteous Lot, who was greatly distressed by the indulgence of the law-defying people in loose conduct— 8 for that righteous man by what he saw and heard while dwelling among them from day to day was tormenting his righteous soul by reason of their lawless deeds— 9 GOD knows how to deliver people of godly devotion out of trial, but to reserve unrighteous people for the day of judgment to be cut off, 10 especially, however, those who go on after flesh with the desire to defile [it] and who look down on lordship....


Rbi8 p. 1575 4D “Tartarus”

4D “Tartarus”

2Pe 2:4—“By throwing them into Tartarus”
Gr., Tartarosas; Lat., detractos in Tartarum; Syr., agen ’enun beThachthayatha’
“Tartarus” is found only in 2Pe 2:4. It is included in the Greek verb tartaroo, and so in rendering the verb, the phrase “by throwing them into Tartarus” has been used.

In the Iliad, by the ancient poet Homer, the word tartaros denotes an underground prison as far below Hades as the earth is below heaven. Those confined in it were not human souls, but the lesser gods, spirits, namely, Cronus and the other Titans who had rebelled against Zeus (Jupiter). It was the prison established by the mythical gods for the spirits whom they had driven from the celestial regions, and it was below the Hades where human souls were thought to be confined at death. In mythology tartaros was the lowest of the lower regions and a place of darkness. It enveloped all the underworld just as the heavens enveloped all that was above the earth. Therefore, in pagan Greek mythology tartaros was reputed to be a place for confining, not human souls, but Titan spirits, and a place of darkness and abasement.

In Job 40:15 (40:20, LXX) we read concerning Behemoth: “And when he has gone up to a steep mountain, he causes joy to the quadrupeds in the deep [?? t? ta?t??? (“in the tartarus”)].” In Job 41:31, 32 (41:23, 24, LXX) we read concerning Leviathan: “He makes the deep boil like a brazen caldron; and he regards the sea as a pot of ointment, and the lowest part of the deep [t?? d? t??ta??? t?? ?ß?ss?? (“the tartarus of the abyss”)] as a captive: he reckons the deep as his range.” The use of tartaros in these verses in LXX makes it plain that the word was used to signify a low place, yes, the “lowest part” of the abyss. Compare 2Pe 2:4 ftn.

The inspired Scriptures do not consign any human souls to tartaros but consign there only spirit creatures, namely, “the angels that sinned.” Their being cast into tartaros denotes the deepest abasement for them while they are still living. This serves as punishment for their sin of rebellion against the Most High God. The apostle Peter associates darkness with their low condition, saying that God “delivered them to pits of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment.” 2Pe 2:4.

The pagans in their mythological traditions concerning Cronus and the rebellious Titan gods presented a distorted view regarding the abasement of rebellious spirits. In contrast, Peter’s use of the verb tartaroo, “cast into Tartarus,” does not signify that “the angels that sinned” were cast into the pagan mythological Tartarus, but that they were abased by the Almighty God from their heavenly place and privileges and were delivered over to a condition of deepest mental darkness respecting God’s bright purposes. Also they had only a dark outlook as to their own eventuality, which the Scriptures show is everlasting destruction along with their ruler, Satan the Devil. Therefore, Tartarus denotes the lowest condition of abasement for those rebellious angels.

In the inspired Scriptures, Tartarus bears no relationship to Hades, which is the common grave of the human dead. The sinful angels and the dead human souls are not associated together in tartaros as a place of eternal conscious torment of creatures. Tartarus will pass away when the Supreme Judge destroys the rebellious angels presently in that condition of abasement.

12/10/2010 7:20:24 PM When was 'hell' created?  
carsonguy1951
Over 1,000 Posts (1,792)
Carson City, NV
64, joined Sep. 2008


I can honestly say that I have "talked" (actually typed) more about hell in the last few weeks on this forum that the entire 40+ years of my active Christian life.

Other than the notion that Jesus lied in Luke 16 or Mt 25... this whole matter really has little or no part in my daily faith.

In speaking about the creeds, I really only honor the original creed developed in Ecumenical Councils, the Nicene Creed.

Dun is right, it really does not speak much about hell....and it does not need to as it is the statement of faith for a Christian.

Those who believe in Christ are not going to hell, so why should a creed even address it? No good reason that I know of.

So other than my profound belief that Jesus did not and would not teach anything using bogus concepts he knew were false.... I will do my best to leave this discussion to others.

12/10/2010 8:45:39 PM When was 'hell' created?  

walt_oftheearth
Over 4,000 Posts! (6,770)
Avondale, AZ
61, joined Feb. 2008


I don't know if hell is a physical or spiritual place. All I know is when I read the end of Revelation chapter 20, I see God's final act dealing with the effects and aftermath of rebellion. It reads "death and hell were cast into the lake of fire."

I then turn the page to Revelation 21 & 22 and read about a New Jerusalem coming down from God out of heaven, where there "will be no more pain," and what the life of the redeemed will be like.

A place of eternal torment can't exist if the inspired word states "there shall be no more pain."

12/10/2010 8:51:08 PM When was 'hell' created?  
carsonguy1951
Over 1,000 Posts (1,792)
Carson City, NV
64, joined Sep. 2008


Quote from walt_oftheearth:
I then turn the page to Revelation 21 & 22 and read about a New Jerusalem coming down from God out of heaven, where there "will be no more pain," and what the life of the redeemed will be like.

A place of eternal torment can't exist if the inspired word states "there shall be no more pain."


No more pain for those who have been redeemed in the New Jerusalem..... It does not address what is or is not happening in the Lake of Fire.



[Edited 12/10/2010 8:57:03 PM ]

12/10/2010 8:57:44 PM When was 'hell' created?  
needinhelp
Over 4,000 Posts! (5,591)
Jacksonville, FL
60, joined Oct. 2010


Quote from carsonguy1951:
No more pain for those in the New Jerusalem..... It does not address what pain might be elsewhere or not.


I suggest you take a good long serious look at Revelation and understand what its talking about.

Revelation 21:1-5 21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea is no more. 2 I saw also the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.” 5 And the One seated on the throne said: “Look! I am making all things new.” Also, he says: “Write, because these words are faithful and true.”

For the record, there is only one place where mankind dwells, and that's the earth ... it clearly states that GOD will wipe out tears, death, mourning, outcry, and pain from the human family.

12/10/2010 9:06:56 PM When was 'hell' created?  
carsonguy1951
Over 1,000 Posts (1,792)
Carson City, NV
64, joined Sep. 2008


Once again, whatever the New Jerusalem is like.....the interpretation of "no more pain" must also agree with Jesus in Mt 25:46 where He says...

"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

So in my book, if I am to believe Jesus promises eternal life, I must also believe Jesus promises eternal punishment.

The only way to discount what Jesus said is to believe He is a liar...a teller of totally bogus stories in order to deceive. I can't go there.

Perhaps the eternal punishment is to be eternally dead.... but it is just as possible the eternal punishment is to be eternally in the Lake of Fire.

Revelations clearly says that for those in the New Jerusalem, there will be no pain.

It simply does not say that there is no more pain elsewhere. It just doesn't say or at least I don't know where it says it.

If it does, bring it up.



[Edited 12/10/2010 9:09:53 PM ]

12/10/2010 9:09:42 PM When was 'hell' created?  
jonsey61
Pipestone, MN
54, joined Dec. 2008


Hell was created for the devil and his angles, like some others posted.

hell is torment 2 thessalonians: 8 In the flaming fire, taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that they obey not the gosple of are Lord Jesus Christ.Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power.

12/10/2010 9:17:34 PM When was 'hell' created?  

walt_oftheearth
Over 4,000 Posts! (6,770)
Avondale, AZ
61, joined Feb. 2008


I think Malachi 4 may help us here, comparing scripture with scripture...

Malachi 4
The Great Day of God

1 “For behold, the day is coming,
Burning like an oven,
And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble.
And the day which is coming shall burn them up,”
Says the LORD of hosts,

“ That will leave them neither root nor branch.
2 But to you who fear My name
The Sun of Righteousness shall arise
With healing in His wings;
And you shall go out
And grow fat like stall-fed calves.
3 You shall trample the wicked,
For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet
On the day that I do this,”
Says the LORD of hosts.

Stubble, ashes, feel no pain. The punishment (effect) will be everlasting, but not the process.

It would malign the character of God to hold a belief that He would somehow make it possible for a being to survive eternally, while writhing in pain in flames of fire. Clearly, the above passage helps us understand, God would not do such a thing.



[Edited 12/10/2010 9:18:54 PM ]

12/10/2010 9:20:49 PM When was 'hell' created?  
carsonguy1951
Over 1,000 Posts (1,792)
Carson City, NV
64, joined Sep. 2008


My read of 2 Thessalonians 1:7-8 is that the angles from heaven come in flaming fire... I can't see where it says what that flaming fire is.... It is not clear if fire is the retribution to those who do not know God etc,

It is clear that they bring retribution and that penalty is eternal....not temporary or with a second chance or a last final answer...

7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire,

8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

9These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,


12/10/2010 9:37:47 PM When was 'hell' created?  
carsonguy1951
Over 1,000 Posts (1,792)
Carson City, NV
64, joined Sep. 2008


Quote from walt_oftheearth:
Stubble, ashes, feel no pain. The punishment (effect) will be everlasting, but not the process.

It would malign the character of God to hold a belief that He would somehow make it possible for a being to survive eternally, while writhing in pain in flames of fire. Clearly, the above passage helps us understand, God would not do such a thing.


Your take is a possible one.....it is possible that the eternal punishment is eternal death.

But I disagree concerning your judgment of the character of God.... or at least what you think malign's His character. The same argument is made my everyone who thinks a loving God would not do this or that.

'A loving God would not....", kill the first born male child of every household if they didn't put lambs blood on the door posts.... The boys who were killed did nothing wrong, it was the Pharaoh's choice.... and God hardened Pharaoh's heart ta boot.

I should think that many would say it would malign God's character to slaughter innocent young men or babies because of the hard heart God gave Pharaoh?

"A loving God would not.....", prevent every adult (except the 2 spies) over the age of 20 from entering into the promised land after God led them out of Egypt....making them wander around in the desert for 40 years punishing everyone for the disobedience of a relative few. 2 Spies vote yes, 10 Spies vote no....the people agree with the 10 and zap, 40 more years of wondering to die in the desert.

God tells us His ways are not our ways.... so I am not sure we get to decide what would malign or not malign His Character.



[Edited 12/10/2010 9:43:16 PM ]

12/10/2010 9:47:22 PM When was 'hell' created?  

walt_oftheearth
Over 4,000 Posts! (6,770)
Avondale, AZ
61, joined Feb. 2008


What scriptures I learned early in life were in the KJV and the words "consider" and "place" came to mind. Here is a passage in Psalms which also seems to indicate when teh wicked are destroyed, that will be it for them. ....

"Evildoers shall be cut off;
But those who wait on the LORD,
They shall inherit the earth.
For yet a little while and the wicked shall be no more;
Indeed, you will look carefully for his place,
But it shall be no more
. ~ Psalm 37:9-11 (New King James Version)

12/10/2010 10:38:36 PM When was 'hell' created?  
pac57
Clovis, NM
58, joined Nov. 2010


Is it possible that we assume that because the devil and his angels are to be tormented day and night forever and ever...that humans that are cast into the lake of fire will also be tormented likewise. My own understanding is that maybe the devil can be...because he is of the spirit realm....we are not. We are humans. Are we given that eternal spirit before resurrection?? Or is that the gift we receive if we are deserving. If you cast a human into the fire...it is destroyed...burns up...is no more. Ashes. The second death. If the devil is a spirit...from the spirit realm...along with his angels who are spirits...would he not suffer eternal punishment having the earth removed from his power... he being bound up in fire...watching it be returned to the God who created it.......to be a virtual paradise as God intended. I believe nothing goes forth from Gods mouth that does not return to Him fulfilled. He intended us to live in peace on this Earth, and I believe we will if we follow Him. And, that He will reside with us...live with us. The Earth was intended to stand to time indefinate...to never be removed. It will be made new, and the meek shall inheret the Earth. Just my thoughts here.

12/10/2010 10:56:44 PM When was 'hell' created?  
carsonguy1951
Over 1,000 Posts (1,792)
Carson City, NV
64, joined Sep. 2008


Quote from walt_oftheearth:

"Evildoers shall be cut off;
But those who wait on the LORD,
They shall inherit the earth.
For yet a little while and the wicked shall be no more;
Indeed, you will look carefully for his place,
But it shall be no more
. ~ Psalm 37:9-11 (New King James Version)


I think this Psalm simply speaks about the wicked being dead....and his place or his estate is no more.

Folks while they live have power, and some have evil power....Folks are afraid of evil people, that is until they are dead.

A king was all powerful. So if you said something bad about a King, he could just order your head cut off...such as Herod did to John the Baptist. Hitler could order the extermination of millions of Jews. Once dead....his power was gone...his place was gone.

Yet as soon as Herod was dead, so was his evil power, no one is afraid of him....it is no more he is no more. Go looking for him and there is nothing.

12/11/2010 12:10:05 AM When was 'hell' created?  
onemrmajestic
Over 4,000 Posts! (4,939)
Seattle, WA
57, joined Oct. 2009


Quote from needinhelp:
I suggest you take a good long serious look at Revelation and understand what its talking about.

Revelation 21:1-5 21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea is no more. 2 I saw also the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.” 5 And the One seated on the throne said: “Look! I am making all things new.” Also, he says: “Write, because these words are faithful and true.”

For the record, there is only one place where mankind dwells, and that's the earth ... it clearly states that GOD will wipe out tears, death, mourning, outcry, and pain from the human family.



if i didn't know better, you would make a good witness for Jehovah. So come over to the faith that is the most united in Jehovah, be one more of Jehovah's Witness's.



[Edited 12/11/2010 12:10:28 AM ]

12/11/2010 12:23:36 AM When was 'hell' created?  

bigd9832
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (19,379)
Chicago, IL
63, joined Oct. 2007


Quote from needinhelp:
Try this instead: The place that Jesus referred to is a place called Tartarus, and its description can be found only in the book of 2nd Peter.


Actually, I have brought this word 'tartarus' up before in my thread "There is no hell in the Scriptures."

Yes, tartarus is mentioned only in 2 Peter, and relate only to angels, not humans. Observe...

CLV 2Pt 2:4 For if God spares not sinning messengers, but thrusting them into the gloomy caverns of Tartarus, gives them up to be kept into/for chastening judging;

YLT 2Pt 2:4 For if God messengers who sinned did not spare, but with chains of thick gloom, having cast them down to Tartarus, did deliver them to judgment, having been reserved


This is pretty specific punishment actually. Messengers in your KJV are angels. The problem with the KJv is you can't make this distinction. All it says is 'hell.'

And if tartarus is 'hell' then why is hades and gehenna also translated as 'hell?'

Still, no answer to the question.

Quote from ludlowlowell:
God must have created Hell about the time that Lucifer and his fellow rebellious angels fell from grace, as Jesus says in Matthew 25:41 "...Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels."


CLV Mt 25:41 "Then shall He be declaring to those also out/at His left, Go from Me, you cursed, into the fire eonian, made ready for the Adversary and his messengers.

YLT Mt 25:41 Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers


This is actually the closest thing to 'hell' being created in the Scriptures. There are two problems with this idea.

First, He says this is prepared for messengers (angels) and the Adversary. Not humans.

Secondly, the term 'Aion' in Ancient Greek signifies that the fire mentioned is not eternal, but lasts only for an age. That is, and age, like a time period that does come to an end.

***************************************************

Well, I see alot of chatter, but I still don't see a clear definition of when/where 'hell' was created.

So, I have to assume that it was not created, and therefore, does not exist.

12/11/2010 8:43:53 AM When was 'hell' created?  
dunrich3
Over 4,000 Posts! (4,511)
Brantford, ON
62, joined Feb. 2010


I find Isaiah 8-10, very facinating.


Isaiah 14:8-10 (New King James Version)
8 Indeed the cypress trees rejoice over you,
And the cedars of Lebanon,
Saying, ‘Since you were cut down,
No woodsman has come up against us.’
9 “ Hell from beneath is excited about you,
To meet you at your coming;
It stirs up the dead for you,
All the chief ones of the earth;
It has raised up from their thrones
All the kings of the nations.
10 They all shall speak and say to you:

‘ Have you also become as weak as we?
Have you become like us?

Especially verse 9 and how different Translations word it so differently from each other.

New International Version (©1984)
The grave below is all astir to meet you at your coming; it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you--all those who were leaders in the world; it makes them rise from their thrones--all those who were kings over the nations.
New Living Translation (©2007)
"In the place of the dead there is excitement over your arrival. The spirits of world leaders and mighty kings long dead stand up to see you.

English Standard Version (©2001)
Sheol beneath is stirred up to meet you when you come; it rouses the shades to greet you, all who were leaders of the earth; it raises from their thrones all who were kings of the nations.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"Sheol from beneath is excited over you to meet you when you come; It arouses for you the spirits of the dead, all the leaders of the earth; It raises all the kings of the nations from their thrones.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Sheol below wakes up to meet you when you come. It wakes up the ghosts of the dead, all who were leaders on earth. It raises all who were kings of the nations from their thrones.

King James Bible
Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet [thee] at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, [even] all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

American King James Version
Hell from beneath is moved for you to meet you at your coming: it stirs up the dead for you, even all the chief ones of the earth; it has raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

American Standard Version
Sheol from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming; it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

Bible in Basic English
The underworld is moved at your coming: the shades of the dead are awake before you, even the strong ones of the earth; all the kings of the world have got up from their seats.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Hell below was in an uproar to meet thee at thy coming, it stirred up the giants for thee. All the princes of the earth are risen up from their thrones, all the princes of nations.

Darby Bible Translation
Sheol from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming, stirring up the dead for thee, all the he-goats of the earth; making to rise from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

English Revised Version
Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

Webster's Bible Translation
Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

World English Bible
Sheol from beneath has moved for you to meet you at your coming. It stirs up the dead for you, even all the rulers of the earth. It has raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

Young's Literal Translation
Sheol beneath hath been troubled at thee, To meet thy coming in, It is waking up for thee Rephaim, All chiefs ones of earth, It hath raised up from their thrones All kings of nations.

Not drawing any conclusions or quoting them in order to argue. Just to point out that the dead, were definately intersted in the events of the Cross. It affected them is some way and might be a clue as to the procalmation, made by Christ.

Also, that switching words, from Sheoul to Hell, means thhat we really need to understand where the word Hell came from.

You may disagree with me about my conclusions about punishment , sure.

But I think its time, that Christians quit using Hell as if it is part of the original scriptures.

Just think about it first, the next time you want to proclaim it as taught in so many doctrines. Afterall, it is very important.

12/11/2010 9:31:22 AM When was 'hell' created?  
rlm68
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (18,110)
Aurora, CO
47, joined Apr. 2010


Jews and Muslims are alike in many ways. They only accept Jesus as a prophet, they believe each one will get a free ride to heaven based upon their acceptance of their version of God, and both refuse to accept they are wrong.

One fact that is definite. If they don't accept Jesus they will learn what hell is. Now without argument if hell is eternal fire or just separation the TRUTH is that anytime your forced to be away from God is death forever.

Without Jesus this is what Jews, Muslims, JWs, Mormons and whoever refuse to accept Jesus as God and your only source to forgiveness and salvation will end up with....DEATH ETERNAL without God.



[Edited 12/11/2010 9:34:36 AM ]

12/11/2010 9:53:32 AM When was 'hell' created?  

bigd9832
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (19,379)
Chicago, IL
63, joined Oct. 2007


(this post has been flagged as inappropriate, sorry.)

12/11/2010 9:57:39 AM When was 'hell' created?  

bigd9832
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (19,379)
Chicago, IL
63, joined Oct. 2007


Quote from rlm68:
One fact that is definite. If they don't accept Jesus they will learn what hell is. Now without argument if hell is eternal fire or just separation the TRUTH is that anytime your forced to be away from God is death forever.


Actually, this is not a 'fact' at all.

The term 'hell' did not exist when the Scriptures were written.

And your conclusion about the Jews going to a 'hell' is certainly not in harmony with the Scriptures...

AV Re 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: [and there were] sealed an hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

CLV Re 7:4 And I hear the number of those sealed: a hundred forty-four thousand. Sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel are:


Maybe you need to go back and read that part again?

Now let's see, is it possible that rlm68 might just answer the question listed here in the title?

Or was this yet another attempt to sway us from the point here?



[Edited 12/11/2010 9:59:14 AM ]

12/11/2010 10:11:52 AM When was 'hell' created?  
rlm68
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (18,110)
Aurora, CO
47, joined Apr. 2010


Quote from bigd9832:
Actually, this is not a 'fact' at all.

The term 'hell' did not exist when the Scriptures were written.

And your conclusion about the Jews going to a 'hell' is certainly not in harmony with the Scriptures...

AV Re 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: [and there were] sealed an hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

CLV Re 7:4 And I hear the number of those sealed: a hundred forty-four thousand. Sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel are:


Maybe you need to go back and read that part again?

Now let's see, is it possible that rlm68 might just answer the question listed here in the title?

Or was this yet another attempt to sway us from the point here?



You are twisted.

Those 144,000 are Jews at 3 1/2 year mark of Tribulation who refuse to accept the Anti-Christ as the Messiah and accept that Jesus was the Messiah. This is why they will be resurrected and saved.

I'm speaking about the millions of Jews now but I'm sure you knew that. You have a tendacy to keep TRUTH hushed and lies alive.

12/14/2010 11:29:58 AM When was 'hell' created?  
ready_to_rock1
Over 2,000 Posts (2,046)
Effingham, IL
55, joined Nov. 2010


When was 'hell' created?

Depends on which thread on the Christian DH Forums ya open up!

12/14/2010 3:49:13 PM When was 'hell' created?  

bigd9832
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (19,379)
Chicago, IL
63, joined Oct. 2007


Quote from rlm68:
You are twisted.


Ah yes. Yet another loving christian who is spreading the agape love of Christ to all those who do not see things his own way. I have said it before and I will say it again.

Whoever wrote that song "They Will Know We Are Christians By Our Love" has never visited Date Hookup, and certainly has never met me. rlm68, soon to be 69.

Quote from rlm68:
Those 144,000 are Jews at 3 1/2 year mark of Tribulation who refuse to accept the Anti-Christ as the Messiah and accept that Jesus was the Messiah. This is why they will be resurrected and saved.
I'm speaking about the millions of Jews now but I'm sure you knew that. You have a tendency to keep TRUTH hushed and lies alive.


I see. Of course you can back this up with Scripture.

So you think these Jew are the ones who kept the truth hushed and the lies alive?

Lies like these the doctrine of hell? Something that the Jews do not hold to be true.

I wonder who the liars really are?

And so far, no one has come up with any Scriptures to verify that 'hell' was ever created by God.

Now I see where it says that Heaven was created. I see where it says the Earth was created. I even see where man was created.

I do not see where it says that 'hell' was created.

Maybe someone forgot to write it down? Oh, sorry, this is the Word of God, right? I would think that if He created 'hell,' that He would want us to know where it fits into His plans.

You mean to tell me that all the christians here, who supposedly read the Bible, not one person can show when Hell was created?


12/14/2010 4:10:39 PM When was 'hell' created?  
mindya
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (22,323)
Bird in Hand, PA
63, joined Jan. 2009


GEHENNA - Courtesy Binford Tools

By : Kaufmann Kohler Ludwig Blau

ARTICLE HEADINGS:
Nature and Situation.
Judgment.
Sin and Merit.


Nature and Situation.

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (So?ah 22a); according to Gen. R. ix. 9, the words "very good" in Gen. i. 31 refer to hell; hence the latter must have been created on the sixth day. Yet opinions on this point vary. According to some sources, it was created on the second day; according to others, even before the world, only its fire being created on the second day (Gen. R. iv., end; Pes. 54a). The "fiery furnace" that Abraham saw (Gen. xv. 17, Hebr.) was Gehenna (Mek. xx. 18b, 71b; comp. Enoch, xcviii. 3, ciii. 8; Matt. xiii. 42, 50; 'Er. 19a, where the "fiery furnace" is also identified with the gate of Gehenna). Opinions also vary as to the situation, extent, and nature of hell. The statement that Gehenna is situated in the valley of Hinnom near Jerusalem, in the "accursed valley" (Enoch, xxvii. 1 et seq.), means simply that it has a gate there. It was in Zion, and had a gate in Jerusalem (Isa. xxxi. 9). It had three gates, one in the wilderness, one in the sea, and one in Jerusalem ('Er. 19a). The gate lies between two palm-trees in the valley of Hinnom, from which smoke is continually rising (ib.). The mouth is narrow, impeding the smoke, but below Gehenna extends indefinitely (Men. 99b). According to one opinion, it is above the firmament, and according to another, behind the dark mountains (Ta'an. 32b). An Arabian pointed out to a scholar the spot in the wilderness where the earth swallowed the sons of Korah (Num. xvi. 31-32), who descended into Gehenna (Sanh. 110b). It is situated deep down in the earth, and is immeasurably large. "The earth is one-sixtieth of the garden, the garden one-sixtieth of Eden [paradise], Eden one-sixtieth of Gehenna; hence the whole world is like a lid for Gehenna. Some say that Gehenna can not be measured" (Pes. 94a). It is divided into seven compartments (So?ah 10b); a similar view was held by the Babylonians (Jeremias, "Hölle und Paradies bei den Babyloniern," pp. 16 et seq., Leipsic, 1901; Guthe, "Kurzes Bibel-wörterb." p. 272, Tübingen and Leipsic, 1903).

Because of the extent of Gehenna the sun, on setting in the evening, passes by it, and receives from it its own fire (evening glow; B. B. 84a). A fiery stream ("dinur") falls upon the head of the sinner in Gehenna (?ag. 13b). This is "the fire of the West, which every setting sun receives. I came to a fiery river, whose fire flows like water, and which empties into a large sea in the West" (Enoch, xvii. 4-6). Hell here is described exactly as in the Talmud. The Persians believed that glowing molten metal flowed under the feet of sinners (Schwally, "Das Leben nach dem Tode," p. 145, Giessen, 1892). The waters of the warm springs of Tiberias are heated while flowing past Gehenna (Shab. 39a). The fire of Gehenna never goes out (Tosef., Ber. 6, 7; Mark ix. 43 et seq.; Matt. xviii. 8, xxv. 41; comp. Schwally, l.c. p. 176); there is always plenty of wood there (Men. 100a). This fire is sixty times as hot as any earthly fire (Ber. 57b). There is a smell of sulfur in Gehenna (Enoch, lxvii. 6). This agrees with the Greek idea of hell (Lucian, ????e?? ?st???a?, i. 29, in Dietrich, "Abraxas," p. 36). The sulfurous smell of the Tiberian medicinal springs was ascribed to their connection with Gehenna. In Isa. lxvi. 16, 24 it is said that God judges by means of fire. Gehenna is dark in spite of the immense masses of fire; it is like night (Yeb. 109b; comp. Job x. 22). The same idea also occurs in Enoch, x. 4, lxxxii. 2; Matt. viii. 12, xxii. 13, xxv. 30 (comp. Schwally, l.c. p. 176).

It is assumed that there is an angel-prince in charge of Gehenna. He says to God: "Put everything into my sea; nourish me with the seed of Seth; I am hungry." But God refuses his request, telling him to take the heathen peoples (Shab. 104). God says to the angel-prince: "I punish the slanderers from above, and I also punish them from below with glowing coals" ('Ar. 15b). The souls of the sons of Korah were burned, and the angel-prince gnashed his teeth at them on account of their flattery of Korah (Sanh. 52a). Gehenna cries: "Give me the heretics and the sinful [Roman] power" ('Ab. Zarah 17a).

Judgment.

It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B. M. 83b). To every individual is apportioned two shares, one in hell and one in paradise. At death, however, the righteous man's portion in hell is exchanged, so that he has two in heaven, while the reverse is true in the case of sinners (?ag. 15a). Hence it would have been better for the latter not to have lived at all (Yeb. 63b). They are cast into Gehenna to a depth commensurate with their sinfulness. They say: "Lord of the world, Thou hast done well; Paradise for the pious, Gehenna for the wicked" ('Er. 19a).

cont. next post.



[Edited 12/14/2010 4:13:59 PM ]

12/14/2010 4:10:56 PM When was 'hell' created?  
mindya
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There are three categories of men; the wholly pious and the arch-sinners are not purified, but only those between these two classes (Ab. R. N. 41). A similar view is expressed in the Babylonian Talmud, which adds that those who have sinned themselves but have not led others into sin remain for twelve months in Gehenna; "after twelve months their bodies are destroyed, their souls are burned, and the wind strews the ashes under the feet of the pious. But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b). The felicity of the pious in paradise excites the wrath of the sinners who behold it when they come from hell (Lev. R. xxxii.). The Book of Enoch (xxvii. 3, xlviii. 9, lxii. 12) paraphrases this thought by saying that the pious rejoice in the pains of hell suffered by the sinners. Abraham takes the damned to his bosom ('Er. 19a; comp. Luke xvi. 19-31). The fire of Gehenna does not touch the Jewish sinners because they confess their sins before the gates of hell and return to God ('Er. 19a). As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al.). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17).
(see image) Valley of Ge-Hinnom.(From a photograph by Bonfils.)The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b). Enoch also holds (xlviii. 9) that the sinners will disappear like chaff before the faces of the elect. There will be no Gehenna in the future world, however, for God will take the sun out of its case, and it will heal the pious with its rays and will punish the sinners (Ned. 8b).

Sin and Merit.

It is frequently said that certain sins will lead man into Gehenna. The name "Gehenna" itself is explained to mean that unchastity will lead to Gehenna (; 'Er. 19a); so also will adultery, idolatry, pride, mockery, hypocrisy, anger, etc. (So?ah 4b, 41b; Ta'an. 5a; B. B. 10b, 78b; 'Ab. Zarah 18b; Ned. 22a). Hell awaits one who indulges in unseemly speech (Shab. 33a; Enoch, xxvii.); who always follows the advice of his wife (B. M. 59a); who instructs an unworthy pupil (?ul. 133b); who turns away from the Torah (B. B. 79a; comp. Yoma 72b). For further details see 'Er. 18b, 101a; Sanh. 109b; ?id. 81a; Ned. 39b; B. M. 19a.

On the other hand, there are merits that preserve man from going to hell; e.g., philanthropy, fasting, visiting the sick, reading the Shema' and Hallel, and eating the three meals on the Sabbath (Gi?. 7a; B. B. 10a; B. M. 85a; Ned. 40a; Ber. 15b; Pes. 118a; Shab. 118a). Israelites in general are less endangered (Ber. 10a) than heretics, or, according to B. B. 10a, than the heathen. Scholars (?ag. 27a; comp. Men. 99b and Yoma 87a), the poor, and the pious (Yeb. 102b) are especially protected. Three classes of men do not see the face of hell: those that live in penury, those suffering with intestinal catarrh, and those that are pressed by their creditors ('Er. 41b). It would seem that the expressions "doomed to hell" and "to be saved from hell" must be interpreted hyperbolically. A bad woman is compared to Gehenna in Yeb. 63b. On the names of Gehenna see 'Er. 19a; B. B. 79a; Sanh. 111b; et al.

Bibliography: Winer, B. R. i. 491;
Hamburger, R. B. T. i. 527-530;
Hastings, Dict. Bible, ii. 343-346;
H. Guthe, Kurzes Bibelwörterb. pp. 271-274, Tübingen and Leipsic, 1903;
G. Brecher, Das Transcendentale, etc. pp. 69-73, Vienna, 1850;
A. Hilgenfeld, Jüdische Apocalyptik, Index, Jena, 1857;
F. Weber, Jüdische Theologie, pp. 336 et seq.;
E. Stave, Der Einfluss des Parsismus auf das Judenthum, pp. 153-192 et seq., Haarlem, 1898;
James, Traditional Aspects of Hell, London, 1903.K. L. B.

from:
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=115&letter=G&search=hell

12/14/2010 4:18:18 PM When was 'hell' created?  

bigd9832
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CLV Gn 1:30 And for all land life, and for every flyer of the heavens, and for every moving animal on the land, which has in it a living soul, all green herbage is for food. And coming is it to be so.
31. And seeing is the Elohim all that He had made, and, behold, it is very good. And coming is it to be evening and coming to be morning, the sixth day.

CLV Gn 2:1 And finished are the heavens and the earth and all their host.
2. And finishing is the Elohim, on the sixth day, His work which He does. And ceasing is He on the seventh day from all His work which He does.
3. And blessing is the Elohim the seventh day, and hallowing it, for in it He ceases from all His work, which the Elohim creates to make.


These are the verses that your atricle mentioned, right?

I am sorry, but I do not see the term 'hell' created here. If I am missing it, please point it out to me.

Honestly mindya, you don't need a long drawn out article to answer a simple question.

The question is simpley, is there a Scripture that tells us when 'hell' was created?

If you think there is, then just post it here.

But quite dancing around the question.

12/14/2010 4:25:46 PM When was 'hell' created?  
mindya
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Quote from bigd9832:
Honestly mindya, you don't need a long drawn out article to answer a simple question.

The question is simply, is there a Scripture that tells us when 'hell' was created?

If you think there is, then just post it here.

But quit dancing around the question.


Well, as you are quite aware the question has many opinions - I just posted something that is loaded with opinions from many sources including Jewish.

If you don't wish to read the article and glean information from it that's your prerogative.

PS this seems rather "demanding" of you.



[Edited 12/14/2010 4:26:30 PM ]

12/14/2010 4:50:05 PM When was 'hell' created?  

bigd9832
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The question has only two options. Let me show you...

AV Gn 1:1 . In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

CLV Gn 1:1 IN A BEGINNING Created by the Elohim were the heavens and the earth.

YLT Gn 1:1 . In the beginning of God's preparing the heavens and the earth


See?

No muss. No fuss. Straight question, and a straight answer.

The fact is that God never did create a 'hell.' And since He didn't create a 'hell,' it just doesn't exist.

Which means that the King James version is mistranslating the term sheol, hades, gehennah and tartarus.

Is that pretty simple or what?

If there is a Scripture that shows us that 'hell' was created, let us see it here.

The question still remains…

Where in the Scritpures, was 'hell' created.

So far, the answer is NOWHERE.

12/14/2010 4:58:23 PM When was 'hell' created?  
mindya
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Quote from bigd9832:
The question has only two options. Let me show you...

AV Gn 1:1 . In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

CLV Gn 1:1 IN A BEGINNING Created by the Elohim were the heavens and the earth.

YLT Gn 1:1 . In the beginning of God's preparing the heavens and the earth


See?

No muss. No fuss. Straight question, and a straight answer.

The fact is that God never did create a 'hell.' And since He didn't create a 'hell,' it just doesn't exist.

Which means that the King James version is mistranslating the term sheol, hades, gehennah and tartarus.

Is that pretty simple or what?

If there is a Scripture that shows us that 'hell' was created, let us see it here.

The question still remains…

Where in the Scritpures, was 'hell' created.

So far, the answer is NOWHERE.


Well, it don't see it quite as "straight forward" as you do. There is ambiguity, esp with the KJV - I'm in agreement with you in that.

(Mat 25:41 KJV) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Mat 25:41 (CLV) "Then shall He be declaring to those also at His left, 'Go from Me, you cursed, into the fire eonian, made ready for the Adversary and his messengers.

You tell me which fire this above relates to and maybe we can define things a little better.

When was this fire created, prepared or made ready?

12/14/2010 5:21:19 PM When was 'hell' created?  

bigd9832
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Quote from mindya:
Well, it don't see it quite as "straight forward" as you do. There is ambiguity, esp with the KJV - I'm in agreement with you in that.

(Mat 25:41 KJV) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Mat 25:41 (CLV) "Then shall He be declaring to those also at His left, 'Go from Me, you cursed, into the fire eonian, made ready for the Adversary and his messengers.

You tell me which fire this above relates to and maybe we can define things a little better.

When was this fire created, prepared or made ready?


It says that this fire was prepared for the Adversary and his angels/messengers.

It doesn't say anything about humans going there.

Knock says...

The Slanderer and his messengers will be the chief instigators of the fearful anit-Semitic outbreak of the end time. It will be the greatest of all pogroms, and men will be urged on by malignant spirit powers to do all that is possible to exterminate the people who refuse to worship Satan's christ or to bow down to his image. Being superhuman, the wild beast and false prophet will have their portion in the Lake of Fire into which the Slanderer is cast more than a millennium later.

12/14/2010 6:54:45 PM When was 'hell' created?  
ready_to_rock1
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Quote from bigd9832:
The question has only two options. Let me show you...

AV Gn 1:1 . In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

CLV Gn 1:1 IN A BEGINNING Created by the Elohim were the heavens and the earth.

YLT Gn 1:1 . In the beginning of God's preparing the heavens and the earth


See?

No muss. No fuss. Straight question, and a straight answer.

The fact is that God never did create a 'hell.' And since He didn't create a 'hell,' it just doesn't exist.

Which means that the King James version is mistranslating the term sheol, hades, gehennah and tartarus.

Is that pretty simple or what?

If there is a Scripture that shows us that 'hell' was created, let us see it here.

The question still remains…

Where in the Scritpures, was 'hell' created.

So far, the answer is NOWHERE.


LMAO! I have the answer, there is no answer!
Everything written in the Bible is to be understood and taken by each individual and their own way of thinking.
That is why it is called FAITH.

12/14/2010 9:12:56 PM When was 'hell' created?  
mindya
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Quote from bigd9832:
It says that this fire was prepared for the Adversary and his angels/messengers.

It doesn't say anything about humans going there.

Knock says...

The Slanderer and his messengers will be the chief instigators of the fearful anit-Semitic outbreak of the end time. It will be the greatest of all pogroms, and men will be urged on by malignant spirit powers to do all that is possible to exterminate the people who refuse to worship Satan's christ or to bow down to his image. Being superhuman, the wild beast and false prophet will have their portion in the Lake of Fire into which the Slanderer is cast more than a millennium later.


"It doesn't say anything about humans going there."

If the whole passage is taken into consideration it seems to me that it does speak of humans going there.

Knoch's take is interesting but does it do justice to the full passage that surrounds Mat 25:41?

Preamble to 25:41:

(Mat 25:31-34 KJV) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

(Mat 25:41 KJV) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

It seems to me these "goats" on the left hand end up in the same fire?

What/who are these goats? Grass nibbling critters?

12/14/2010 9:19:51 PM When was 'hell' created?  

bigd9832
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Quote from mindya:
It seems to me these "goats" on the left hand end up in the same fire?
What/who are these goats? Grass nibbling critters?


What are the goats?

That is a good question.

It seems that He was careful not to call them humans.

12/14/2010 9:42:23 PM When was 'hell' created?  
mindya
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(Mat 25:42 KJV) For I was an hungered, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting (aionios) punishment: but the righteous into life eternal (aionios).

Seems to me we are dealing with two types of people here represented by sheep and goats. I.E. I am the good shepherd - My sheep etc.

As for "aionios" being eternal or a "span" of time - do the righteous get life only for a span of time?

12/14/2010 10:47:18 PM When was 'hell' created?  

bigd9832
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Quote from mindya:
As for "aionios" being eternal or a "span" of time - do the righteous get life only for a span of time?


The span of time has already been measured in the Book of Revelations...

AV Re 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

AV Re 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.

CLV Re 20:4 And I perceived thrones, and they are seated on them, and judgment was granted to them. And the souls of those executed because of the testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who/any do not worship the wild beast no/or its image, and did not get the emblem on their forehead and on their hand--they also live and reign with Christ a thousand years.

CLV Re 20:5 (The rest of the dead do not live until the thousand years should be finished.) This is the former resurrection.


So I will ask you the same question I asked qualiteee.

How long is Christ's Reign?

Will Jesus Christ Reign until? This implies that His reign will be over. Finished. Done.

AV 1C 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

CLV 1C 15:25 For He must be reigning until He which should be placing all His enemies under His feet.

AV 1C 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

CLV 1C 15:28 Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.


Or does Christ reign forever? His reign will never end.

AV Re 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

CLV Re 11:15 And the seventh messenger trumpets. And loud voices occurred in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of this world became our Lord's and His Christ's, and He shall be reigning into/for the eons of the eons! Amen!"


Which is it? It can't be both. He is either reigning forever or until He finishes His job.

Doesn't this show an obvious flaw in the translating?

12/14/2010 11:05:55 PM When was 'hell' created?  
mindya
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Quote from bigd9832:
Which is it? It can't be both. He is either reigning forever or until He finishes His job.

Doesn't this show an obvious flaw in the translating?


Not at all, what I think is happening is mixing of different topics. Yes Christ does reign till "his enemies" are subdued and then hands over the kingdom. But is that a spiritual reign or a physical? Opinions are divided on this - each maintaining the correctness of their position.

Paul also uses the term "(aion)"

(Eph 2:7 KJV) That in the ages (aion) to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

aion is used here by Paul, but can we be certain that he meant a series of ages or just one age to come? This is were doctrinal differences appear. Then it gets messy. You, me or anybody cannot state anything really definitive in my opinion. Its open to context and interpretation. Trying to tie it to the book of Revelation is difficult at its best.

I'm not even sure if Paul had any concept of the "thousand year reign of Christ". He seems to fully expect the return of Jesus during or shortly after his life.

I would not be dogmatic on this at all.


However, this is not associated with "eternal" life - mixing the two and ignoring the context is were the error lies in my opinion.

12/14/2010 11:20:30 PM When was 'hell' created?  
rlm68
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Quote from rlm68:
Between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2. Lucifer was overseer of first original creation. He lied about God to those human on earth and to 1/3 of God's Angels. As result Lucifer was cast out of heaven and into hell as Satan and then the first creation was destroyed with the Luciferian flood. When you read Genesis 1:2 it speaks about forming land out of the deep. If your God and creating earth for first time you would not completely flood it and say it is good. There are plenty of scripture to verify this taking place in both Old and New Testaments. Im not at a place where I have access to give them.



Isaiah 14

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.


Isaiah speaks about this but this took place between Genesis 1:1 - 1:2

12/15/2010 12:58:27 AM When was 'hell' created?  

bigd9832
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Quote from mindya:
Not at all, what I think is happening is mixing of different topics. Yes Christ does reign till "his enemies" are subdued and then hands over the kingdom. But is that a spiritual reign or a physical? Opinions are divided on this - each maintaining the correctness of their position.


Christ's Reign is only one reign. Just one. It is His role as Messiah. It is what was predicted by Israel for thousands of years.

Of course it is physical. It is predicted as Physical.

King of Kings. Lord of Lords. These are physical governments that He will reign over.

He also resurrects all to be judged by Him. Physical.

What is a 'spiritual' reign?

12/15/2010 1:01:07 AM When was 'hell' created?  

bigd9832
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Quote from rlm68:
Isaiah 14
Isaiah speaks about this but this took place between Genesis 1:1 - 1:2


rlm68...

What are you talking about?

This thread is on "When was 'hell' created?"

Do you have an answer to that question?

Can you show us in the Scriptures that 'hell' was created?

If not then get off the air waves here.

12/15/2010 3:09:51 PM When was 'hell' created?  
dunrich3
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Oh, Hell
By James Whitcomb Reilly

Oh Hell--just what is meant by this word Hell.
They say sometimes it's cold as Hell,
Sometimes they say it's hot as Hell.
When it rains they say it's Hell they cry,
And it's Hell when it's dry.

They hate like Hell to see it snow,
It's a Hell of a wind when it starts to blow.
Now how in the world can anyone tell,
What in the Hell they mean by this word Hell.

This mad life is Hell they say,
When he comes in late, there's Hell to pay.
When she starts to yell it's a Hell of a note,
And it's Hell when the kids you have to tote.

It's Hell when the doctor sends you his bills,
For a Hell of a lot of trips and pills.
And when you get this you will know real well,
Just what is meant by this word Hell.

Hell yes, Hell no, and oh Hell too,
The Hell you don't and the Hell you do.
And what Hell of a Hell it is,
The Hell with yours and the Hell with His.

Now where in the Hell and oh Hell where,
And what the Hell do you think I care.
But the Hell of it is it's sure as Hell,
That we don't know what in the Hell is Hell.
www.what-the-hell-is-hell.com/Hellphrases.htm

Heck, we do not even know when it was created.

Matthew 25:41 (King James Version)

41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

This is the only referance I could find about, a place being prepared. Yet, who is it for?

It is prepared for devil and his Angels.

I honestly, have no clue about the devil though. The word devil comes from the word diablo.

"for the devil d?aß??? diabolo 1228 slanderous, accusing falsely from diaballó (from biblos.com)

Strongs says this ":


"accuse.

From dia and ballo; (figuratively) to traduce -- accuse.

see GREEK dia

see GREEK ballo

d?eß???? (dieblethe) - 1 Occurrence"

I just thought I would double check, as I know many mistakingly call Lucifre Satan, so I was curious. Have no idea, what all this means.

But, the reference I could find, about the creation of Hell was the above verse, which mentions preparation of a place.

12/15/2010 9:46:21 PM When was 'hell' created?  

bigd9832
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (19,379)
Chicago, IL
63, joined Oct. 2007


Quote from dunrich3:
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
This is the only referance I could find about, a place being prepared. Yet, who is it for?
It is prepared for devil and his Angels.
I honestly, have no clue about the devil though. The word devil comes from the word diablo.


In the Greek and Hebrew this all get pretty complex. But then, what would you expect from the 'other side?'

There is...

The Adversary (diabolos)
Demon (daimonion)
Satan (Satanas)
The Tempter (peirazo)

Hairy goat idols (sa`iyr)
Demons (shed)
Lucifer - Son of the Morning Star (heylel)

That ancient serpent, the Slanderer and Satan” (Rev.20:2) is not known by name, but by descriptive, terms and titles. He is not the only adversary or the only slanderer, but he is the chief adversary of God and Christ, and the supreme Slanderer of God and man. He is the leader of the opposition in the divine government. It is his function to test and call in question, to thwart and to destroy every move made by God in His administration of the universe.

12/15/2010 10:05:12 PM When was 'hell' created?  
mindya
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (22,323)
Bird in Hand, PA
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More copy and paste from Binford for AL's consideration:

ABRAHAM'S BOSOM, GEHENNA, AND TARTUROS: WHAT ARE THEY?

Abraham's bosom was a Hebrew idiom for a place where the souls of the righteous dead would reside as they awaited the resurrection.

The simple fact of the matter is that Abraham's bosom was a Hebrew idiom which spoke of a place of rest and repose that the righteous dead went, and the Greek conception of Hades has historically been a locality that received into itself all the dead, but it was divided into two regions - a place of torment, and the other a place of blessedness.

The expression "Abraham's Bosom" occurred in a few Jewish writings. One of these places is found in 4 Macc. 13:16, and yet another in the Talmudic tractate "Qiddushin, on Betrothal" 72b, 1st line (references given in "The Life And Times Of Jesus The Messiah", by Alfred Edersheim).

Gehenna

It is important for the Christian to understand that Jesus' reference to Gehenna as a place of torment wasn't exclusively a teaching that Jesus taught. The teaching of a place of punishment called Gehenna was a common teaching among the Jewish people even prior to the birth of Jesus.

The following is a quotation from the Jerusalem Targum (Jewish commentary) on Genesis 3:24:

Two thousand years before the world was made, God created the Law and Gehenna, and the Garden of Eden. He made the Garden of Eden for the righteous, that they might eat of the fruits thereof, and delight themselves in them, because in this world they had kept the commandments of the law, but for the wicked He prepared Gehenna, which is like a sharp two-edged destroying sword. He put within it sparks of fire and burning cols, to punish the wicked in the world to come, because they had not observed the commandments of the law in this world, for the law is the tree of life.

The Jewish encyclopedia has this to say about "Gehenna" or Gehinnom:

"The rabbis were divided as to the place of this Gehinnom, some placing it in the heavens. The form of punishment inflicted on the wicked is not clearly defined in the Talmud but is principally associated with fire."

From the time immediately before Christ, two rabbinic schools taught about the state of the dead.

The school of Shammai arranged all mankind into three classes: The perfectly righteous, who are "immediately written and sealed to eternal life;" The perfectly wicked, who are "immediately written and sealed to Gehenna"; and the intermediate class, "who go down to Gehinnom, and moan, and come up again." (Rosh haShanna 16b, and 17a).

Concerning the sinners of Israel and the Gentiles, the school of Hillel says

That they are tormented in Gehenna for twelve months, after which their bodies and souls are burnt up and scattered as dust under the feet of the righteous; but it significantly excepts from this number certain classes of transgressors "who go down to Gehinnom and are punished there to ages of ages".

From these two rabbinical schools of thought we can see that even before Christ, the concept of Gehenna as a place of torment and punishment after the death of an individual was extant, these two schools represented the theological teaching in the time of Christ and his apostles. There were many other places in rabbinical writings which are concurrent with the time of Jesus, where Gehenna is referred to as a place of punishment and torment for the souls of the dead.

As we can see from these few instances that there were definite differences of opinion as to what Gehenna was, or where it was, but the fact remains that the teaching of Gehenna was not unique to Jesus' ministry. Jesus' teachings were designed to clear up misconceptions people might have about a certain thing, as His discourse in Matthew 5 shows.

Now, understanding that the teaching of Gehenna was a prevalent teaching in Jesus' day, and that it was NOT exclusive to Jesus' ministry we can see that He was making a clear and concise point in Matthew 5 concerning the wicked heart of men and the Righteous Judgment of God upon that wickedness, and plainly warning His listeners to do what they could to avoid that terrible place known as Gehenna.

Mat 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into Gehenna.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into Gehenna.


TARTAROS

2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to tartaros, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

In classical Greek literature, Tartaros is mentioned in several places, and most generally it is used to denote a place where the wicked gods or angels of Greek mythology were cast into by Jupiter.

Peter used the term Tartaros, as it was a familiar term to the Greek speaking world, as a place where some angels who sinned were reserved unto judgment. Both Peter and Jude 1:6 mentions these angels, and refers to them being confined to chains of darkness until the Judgment day.

The interesting thing is that contextually, both these passages seem to infer that false teachers and false prophets will also find their place in Tartaros.

2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

Adapted from:

http://crosscountry4jesus.com

12/15/2010 10:25:37 PM When was 'hell' created?  
carsonguy1951
Over 1,000 Posts (1,792)
Carson City, NV
64, joined Sep. 2008


From Wiki...

Judaism

In First Temple Judaism, Sheol in the Hebrew Old Testament, or Hades in the Septuagint, is primarily a place of "silence" to which all men go. However during, or before, the exile in Babylon ideas of activity of the dead in Sheol began to enter Judaism.[6][7]

During the Second Temple period the concept of a Bosom of Abraham first occurs in Jewish papyri which refer to the "Bosom of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob" [8]. This reflects the belief of Jewish martyrs who died expecting that: "after our death in this fashion Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob will receive us and all our forefathers will praise us" (4 Maccabees 13:17)[9]. Other early Jewish works adapt the Greek mythical picture of Hades to identify the righteous dead as being separated from unrighteous in the fires by a river or chasm. In the pseudepigraphical Apocalypse of Zephaniah the river has a ferryman equivalent to Charon in Greek myth, but replaced by an angel. On the other side in the Bosom of Abraham : "You have escaped from the Abyss and Hades, now you will cross over the crossing place... to all the righteous ones, namely Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Enoch, Elijah and David" [10]. In this myth Abraham was not idle in the Bosom of Abraham, he acted as intercessor for those in the fiery part of Hades.[11].

The pseudepigraphic Book of Enoch describes travels through the cosmos and divides Sheol into four sections: for the truly righteous, the good, the wicked awaiting judgment at the resurrection, and the wicked that will not even be resurrected. However, since the book is pseudepigraphic to the hand of Enoch, who predates Abraham, naturally the character of Abraham does not feature.

Later rabbinical sources preserve several traces of the Bosom of Abraham teaching.[12][13]

In kiddushin 72b, rabbi Adda bar Ahavah of the third century, is said to be "sitting in the bosom of Abraham," Likewise "In the world to come Abraham sits at the gate of Gehenna, permitting none to enter who bears the seal of the covenant" according to Rabbi Levi in Genesis Rabba 67.[14]

Rabbi Abraham Geiger suggested that the parable of Lazarus in Luke 16 preserved a Jewish legend and that Lazarus represented Abraham's servant Eleazar [15]

12/15/2010 10:28:15 PM When was 'hell' created?  

bigd9832
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (19,379)
Chicago, IL
63, joined Oct. 2007


Quote from mindya:
Abraham's bosom was a Hebrew idiom for a place where the souls of the righteous dead would reside as they awaited the resurrection.
The simple fact of the matter is that Abraham's bosom was a Hebrew idiom which spoke of a place of rest and repose that the righteous dead went, and the Greek conception of Hades has historically been a locality that received into itself all the dead, but it was divided into two regions - a place of torment, and the other a place of blessedness.


So you have found an obscure reference to Abraham's Bosom.

Are you suggesting that this is 'hell?

According to your article, it says the dead are there to await resurrection. So right off the bat, this place is not meant to be eternal. Right?

The Jews do not have a 'hell.' So you are accepting the Jewsih beleifs, which do not include a 'hell' into your christian beleifs?

I don't see this as a place of eternal falmes and torment.

I don't see this as Scriptural either, as it conflicts with the ideas of Sheol that are in the OT.

Obsucre, but intersting.

Thanks.

Maybe we should have posted it under the Abraham's Bosom thread?

12/15/2010 10:49:37 PM When was 'hell' created?  
mindya
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (22,323)
Bird in Hand, PA
63, joined Jan. 2009


"Maybe we should have posted it under the Abraham's Bosom thread?"

I guess it could have, its more of a compilation.

I can't type too much as I'm still suffering from spending the morning trying to sort out two confused posters.

I can use the mouse to c&p and search. I switched to "mousing" with my left hand last year after developing "mouse elbow" in my right.

The thread title has hell in '...' as we know in the KJV it is a "coverall" term so posting on Gehenna etc is within the scope of the thread is it not?

12/15/2010 10:57:54 PM When was 'hell' created?  
rlm68
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (18,110)
Aurora, CO
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Quote from bigd9832:
rlm68...

What are you talking about?

This thread is on "When was 'hell' created?"

Do you have an answer to that question?

Can you show us in the Scriptures that 'hell' was created?

If not then get off the air waves here.



Colossians 1:16

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, ((visible and invisible)), whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:


((visible and invisible))
Jesus created HELL that is why HE can describe as HE did in the 4 Gospels. He cast Lucifer and 1/3 of the fallen angels into hell and that is why HE will cast sinners into it as well..

This once again took place in Genesis 1:1 - 1:2

12/15/2010 10:59:15 PM When was 'hell' created?  
dunrich3
Over 4,000 Posts! (4,511)
Brantford, ON
62, joined Feb. 2010


I can't type too much as I'm still suffering from spending the morning trying to sort out two confused posters.


Good luck with the hands, mine were completly seized after smashing my wrists back in 02. Its rough.

But as for your arrogant statement that you sorted out 2 confused posters?

Quite the legend you are in your own mind.



[Edited 12/15/2010 10:59:28 PM ]