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12/1/2012 8:21:45 AM Welfare Recipients  

nfries88
Newark, NY
28, joined Nov. 2011



All I see is $3 billion robbed from those who rightfully earned it.




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12/5/2012 6:22:45 PM Welfare Recipients  
dawgpaws
Townsend, MA
67, joined Sep. 2012


Yup. It is sickening - referring to corporate welfare.



[Edited 12/5/2012 6:23:30 PM ]

12/5/2012 7:35:05 PM Welfare Recipients  

58dpilot
Springdale, AR
62, joined May. 2012


Government shouldn't be spending anything to help anyone or anything in terms of welfare. The less government we have and the less intrusive it is the better. Politicans promise everything to everyone and attempt to provide it with government. We see the result of that in trillions of unfunded benefits first to government workers and then to 47% of the people in this country that rely on some form of government intervention or assistance in terms of money, food, housing, health care, and other free things like cell phones.

The result is unsustainable debt and long term unfunded obligations that are probably already unserviceable even by our great grandchildren's children. The government isn't helping anyone, they are merely racing us to collapse and eventual destruction just like they have done every 70 to 80 years since this great experiment started. The third round of that is fast approaching. Each depression has been ugly and each worse than the one before it. This one is going to be a real "doozie"!

Sit back and watch and try to enjoy the show. There is nothing anyone can do about it now. We're just going to have to do the best we can to get through it. Shed your dollars and stocks and buy silver and gold, stock up on tangibles, and find a nice, safe, isolated place to ride it out.



12/5/2012 7:54:36 PM Welfare Recipients  
dawgpaws
Townsend, MA
67, joined Sep. 2012


Quote from 58dpilot:
Government shouldn't be spending anything to help anyone or anything in terms of welfare. The less government we have and the less intrusive it is the better. Politicans promise everything to everyone and attempt to provide it with government. We see the result of that in trillions of unfunded benefits first to government workers and then to 47% of the people in this country that rely on some form of government intervention or assistance in terms of money, food, housing, health care, and other free things like cell phones.

The result is unsustainable debt and long term unfunded obligations that are probably already unserviceable even by our great grandchildren's children. The government isn't helping anyone, they are merely racing us to collapse and eventual destruction just like they have done every 70 to 80 years since this great experiment started. The third round of that is fast approaching. Each depression has been ugly and each worse than the one before it. This one is going to be a real "doozie"!

Sit back and watch and try to enjoy the show. There is nothing anyone can do about it now. We're just going to have to do the best we can to get through it. Shed your dollars and stocks and buy silver and gold, stock up on tangibles, and find a nice, safe, isolated place to ride it out.


Typical Libertarian commentary. Here is the deal. The government has been providing for the people since time out of mind. The ancient Celts had "sick maintenance" from the local kings and all the way up to the High King at Tara.

Of all the Libertarians I know who spout this malarky - every single one of them who ended up disabled and in a wheelchair or totally unable to work from some other disability - ended up on SSI (because they wouldn't report income so they didn't pay taxes) and "sucking off the government teat" and I'll be damned if they don't still sing the same tune while taking government money, driving on roads paid for by taxpayers, and so on and so forth. I'm really quite sick of the hypocrisy.

As for depressions, they are worldwide and they have gone back for hundreds of years, well before the Industrial revolution and can't be blamed on our present form of government. They are almost like wave cycles in traffic patterns.

Our unsustainable debt is not from "entitlement programs" it is from unfunded wars. You are either too young or too uninformed to realize that even as short a time ago as the 1960's that it was the county governments who funded getting teeth extracted and other such necessities for the poor. When I was a young social worker in the 1970's I had to help clients go before the county commissioners to get basic health care met when they were too infirm to care for themselves. I realize Libertarians would just as soon we had people wandering starving while wearing rags in order to prove a point, but that point has never existed since man formed societies.

12/5/2012 9:41:51 PM Welfare Recipients  

58dpilot
Springdale, AR
62, joined May. 2012


Quote from dawgpaws:
Typical Libertarian commentary. Here is the deal. The government has been providing for the people since time out of mind. The ancient Celts had "sick maintenance" from the local kings and all the way up to the High King at Tara.

Of all the Libertarians I know who spout this malarky - every single one of them who ended up disabled and in a wheelchair or totally unable to work from some other disability - ended up on SSI (because they wouldn't report income so they didn't pay taxes) and "sucking off the government teat" and I'll be damned if they don't still sing the same tune while taking government money, driving on roads paid for by taxpayers, and so on and so forth. I'm really quite sick of the hypocrisy.

As for depressions, they are worldwide and they have gone back for hundreds of years, well before the Industrial revolution and can't be blamed on our present form of government. They are almost like wave cycles in traffic patterns.

Our unsustainable debt is not from "entitlement programs" it is from unfunded wars. You are either too young or too uninformed to realize that even as short a time ago as the 1960's that it was the county governments who funded getting teeth extracted and other such necessities for the poor. When I was a young social worker in the 1970's I had to help clients go before the county commissioners to get basic health care met when they were too infirm to care for themselves. I realize Libertarians would just as soon we had people wandering starving while wearing rags in order to prove a point, but that point has never existed since man formed societies.


We shall have to disagree my dear. I am pretty hard core when it comes to personal responsibility, life, and death. I've worked since I was 12. I retired last August without Social Security. I spend half my time caring for my mother who is 81 and dying with stage 4 bone cancer. She refused home health assistance and kicked the nurse out. She says she would rather die on her own without strangers poking and prodding her and telling her what to do. I guess that attitude rubbed off on me somewhere during my 61 plus years on this planet.

I don't see other people as anyone I'm responsible for unless I choose to be and deeply resent anyone compelling me to be charitable. It ruins the virtue in it. I am not a socialist on any level. I'm also no stranger to poverty because I have been poor. My first child was born in 1971 and I fed, clothed and housed my family on $127 a month. By the time my family grew to four I was doing it on $366 a month. I lived according to my means and never expected and never accepted any form of government assistance except my soldier's pay (which is a lot less than a comparable government employees compensation without the work, stress, or risk).

I did fight in two of your "unfunded wars" during my military career. I believe all men should spend a little time in the Army and we should bring back the draft. The military does a better job than anyone of turning our youth into strong, confident, productive adults and good citizens. A large part of our problem is all the "guys" we're spawning in these fractured and broken families that never truely become responsible men and women. They breed more like themselves making matters ever worse.

I've lived in countries where people are really hungy. There are no hungry people in America by comparison. Hungry people in America have cell phones, air conditioners, cars, flat screen TV's and PS3 and Nintendo consoles. Hungry people in some places don't have a handful of rice a day, no where to live at all, and no government to protect the rights they don't have. They don't have liberals because they don't have time for them.

You sound like a very nice compassionate lady but your arguments are typically liberal and do not reflect realities. The race of man has managed to evolve and survive for over 4 million years and will continue to for a long time to come regardless of what nature, the environment, religions, societies, politicians, and other trials, tribulations, busybodies, and disasters throw at them. People are a lot tougher than you think and there is nothing wrong with allowing the really weak ones to cul themselves from the gene pool.

But them I'm an old white guy, too. That's scary for some people these days. When I was young back in the late 60's the old white guys of my day were sometimes a little scary to me. They really knew what it took to be responsible and strong. By comparison my generation had it easy. Today's youth is on a cake walk which is fine unless things get really tough. If it does I hope they have the fortitude to somehow make it. I often fear that liberal society hasn't given them to tools.



12/5/2012 10:17:20 PM Welfare Recipients  

nfries88
Newark, NY
28, joined Nov. 2011


Yes, and churches used to burn atheists at the stake. Many modern Christians would love for atheists to shut the hell up, but not that way. Agreeing with the ends (the poor are fed, clothed, and housed) does not make the means appropriate.

12/6/2012 1:11:31 AM Welfare Recipients  

58dpilot
Springdale, AR
62, joined May. 2012


Quote from nfries88:
Yes, and churches used to burn atheists at the stake. Many modern Christians would love for atheists to shut the hell up, but not that way. Agreeing with the ends (the poor are fed, clothed, and housed) does not make the means appropriate.


Church's put up crosses around the place as warnings. It is a simple warning to that Mexican fellow from OBC when here weren't any Mexikins yet. They don't want Heahzuz, "Jesus" to return. That would wreck the racket it is. It is simple...crosses send him the message that if he comes back he will get it again. They are idiots. God freaks are idiots and liberal progressives are idiots. They should embrace one another in their total obsession with insanity. They have that in common, the only difference is that they are just not reading and agreeing on the same fairy tales. Both thrive on fairy tales and senselessness. Knuckleheads all. If the shoe fits, wear it baby girl! But don't expect the carriage to turn into anything but shit in the end. If you do you will be sorely disappointed!

12/6/2012 4:09:08 PM Welfare Recipients  
dawgpaws
Townsend, MA
67, joined Sep. 2012


There are approximately 80 million children (0-17) in the United States today. Approximately 8 million of them are malnourished. In my work I saw infants born to seriously malnourished mothers and those infants came into the world with brain damage. Malnourished children end up developmentally delayed, don't do well in school, and have problems coping as adults due to developmental delays.

We do not live in Biafra and I do not accept the concept that any child born here should be so malnourished at birth that they are underweight and have brain damage. This is not "liberal" this is common sense. The kind of common sense that a farmer uses in feeding pregnant cattle sufficient feed so that the offspring are healthy.

I am not about to compare the population of the wealthiest nation in the world to places like North Korea or Bangladesh. Bzzt. Those are not apples and oranges - those are mangos and lamb chops. One thing I know about comparisons (did you ever take statistics?) is that you have to know what you're comparing and remember that correlation does not equate to causation.

I suspect I've seen more gross poverty in America than you ever knew existed, since I deliberately chose to work in the largest poverty pocket in America outside of Appalachia. I've seen people who are a few steps away from starvation - many of them children - children so deprived of food you can see right through the skin to the blood vessels underneath.

Further, I started working when I was 8 years old - in the family business and on the farm. So what? What does that have to do with anything, other than the fact I had the opportunity to do things most city kids never get to do? Does your working early qualify you for sainthood? I don't think so.

I'm not a liberal - in fact - my liberal friends (and I have a number of them) despair of me. My conservative friends feel the same way about me. I am a cultural anthropologist who went into social work. In fact, I think all social workers and helping professionals should study cultural anthro to understand people and their cultures before they get to experiment with live human beings.

You can opt for all the independence you can create, but you are not allowed to apply your draconian standards to others. That is a societal decision and the decision of this society is that we don't turn people out on the streets to die. So my elderly clients I tend to pro bono don't need to worry that I will allow harm to come to them. For a "compassionate" woman I can be a hell on wheels b*tch to anyone who besets these frail old folks I watch over.

You were born to and have chosen to remain in this society so you're going to need to grin and bear it. Thanks so much for caring for your Mother. If you die before she does what happens next? Lingering by the roadside? I don't think so. Our society has laws about protecting our elders.

I do believe military retirement kicks in well before social security. Wish you well on that regard.

The sign below is still correct - corporate welfare is the problem not the poor.

12/6/2012 5:01:12 PM Welfare Recipients  

nfries88
Newark, NY
28, joined Nov. 2011


Quote from dawgpaws:
There are approximately 80 million children (0-17) in the United States today. Approximately 8 million of them are malnourished. In my work I saw infants born to seriously malnourished mothers and those infants came into the world with brain damage. Malnourished children end up developmentally delayed, don't do well in school, and have problems coping as adults due to developmental delays.

Eight million malnourished children? And we need to rely on government violence to feed them? No voluntarily cooperative charity could possibly manage to acquire food for 8 million children and means of distribution to those children?

Oh, please. You're just too lazy to do it yourself, or not lucid enough to realize that you can.

You can opt for all the independence you can create, but you are not allowed to apply your draconian standards to others.

Now this really about says it all. You think I'm an individualist. Because a person who cares about others couldn't possibly disagree with you about anything -- only selfish pricks can do that, right?

Please. I'm not rich (in fact, I'm probably closer to the poverty level than you've ever been), so arguing for tax cuts isn't going to seriously improve my own level of income. I'm eligible for government handouts (but don't take any), so advocating for the elimination of those doesn't help me any. And I already have a feeling I know what your next opinion of me is going to be: no, I am not some corporate shill, ready to get on my knees for the first millionaire who looks at me the right way.

We're all codependent. I eat food that was grown by someone who I'll probably never meet, on a farm in some rural village I'll probably never visit. I buy this with money from my job, which is a small chain of hardware stores owned by a man I've met only twice. I also rent an apartment from this beautiful older woman from the city with that money. And I use it to pay for internet, which is provided by a company I barely communicate with, which I use from a computer composed of parts all over the world. Hell, I am communicating with you via firefox, which is the result of voluntary non-profit cooperation between several individuals spread all around the world, who probably don't even know eachother's full names.

I am an open-source software programmer. I've probably spent an entire year of time writing and debugging software that I never saw a cent for. And people use my programs -- they're not nearly as popular (or generally useful) as firefox, but get used -- and I have no idea who these people are or what they're using my programs for.

So yes, we're interconnected, we're bound to eachother, we're all part of a massive collection of over 6 billion interconnected persons. The difference is, I want things done without guns and prisons; while you do. You're the one applying your draconian standards to others, at the barrel of a gun. I'm not applying my draconian standards to anyone.



[Edited 12/6/2012 5:03:41 PM ]

12/6/2012 8:27:41 PM Welfare Recipients  
dawgpaws
Townsend, MA
67, joined Sep. 2012


Quote from nfries88:
Now this really about says it all. You think I'm an individualist. Because a person who cares about others couldn't possibly disagree with you about anything -- only selfish pricks can do that, right?

Please. I'm not rich (in fact, I'm probably closer to the poverty level than you've ever been), so arguing for tax cuts isn't going to seriously improve my own level of income. I'm eligible for government handouts (but don't take any), so advocating for the elimination of those doesn't help me any. And I already have a feeling I know what your next opinion of me is going to be: no, I am not some corporate shill, ready to get on my knees for the first millionaire who looks at me the right way.

We're all codependent. I eat food that was grown by someone who I'll probably never meet, on a farm in some rural village I'll probably never visit. I buy this with money from my job, which is a small chain of hardware stores owned by a man I've met only twice. I also rent an apartment from this beautiful older woman from the city with that money. And I use it to pay for internet, which is provided by a company I barely communicate with, which I use from a computer composed of parts all over the world. Hell, I am communicating with you via firefox, which is the result of voluntary non-profit cooperation between several individuals spread all around the world, who probably don't even know eachother's full names.

I am an open-source software programmer. I've probably spent an entire year of time writing and debugging software that I never saw a cent for. And people use my programs -- they're not nearly as popular (or generally useful) as firefox, but get used -- and I have no idea who these people are or what they're using my programs for.

So yes, we're interconnected, we're bound to eachother, we're all part of a massive collection of over 6 billion interconnected persons. The difference is, I want things done without guns and prisons; while you do. You're the one applying your draconian standards to others, at the barrel of a gun. I'm not applying my draconian standards to anyone.


Actually, I was responding to Pilot.

And you have no idea of my financial background, so making assumptions on your part isn't a safe thing to do without making an incredible fool of yourself. As you may have noticed, I said clearly that anyone who needs food should seek it out where they can get it.

I'm quite amazed at your crystal ball and mind reading abilities. I suggest you ditch the crystal ball and take another course in cold reads, because you have no idea what I think and your predictions are so far off true I'd laugh only you're not funny - you're defensive and lashing out. It does not become you. Or perhaps that's who you are and it does become you.

What it does appear that you don't get is that charities are overloaded caring for the poor. There is insufficient food to go around these days. Donations are not coming in because society is hurting. It used to be that I took on a family for Thanksgiving and Christmas, but this year I can't manage anything close to that due to family needs. OTOH my brother could feed a small village without flinching, but has the same concept I hear here - I've got mine. I love him dearly, but I consider him lacking in community awareness.

Further, there are areas of the country in which poverty is widespread as is hunger. If there is no base to support local soup kitchens then you don't have them. In fact, where I live the Salvation Army is largely absent, which I really don't get.

No, I don't consider you a corporate shill. I don't know where THAT came from. Feeling defensive, are you?

We are not all "co-dependent." We are all interdependent. Co-dependency past early childhood with Mom and Dad is dysfunction in action.

It is fine if you donate all your software skills, but that's a personal decision, just like my pro bono work. In fact, if I actually got paid for a quarter of what I do I'd be living quite nicely. However, I'm not, so get off your high horse before you splat down on your face in the mud.

BTW, I never use Firefox. Nothing personal.

12/6/2012 10:06:56 PM Welfare Recipients  

nfries88
Newark, NY
28, joined Nov. 2011


Not defensive at all. I have debates with "independent-minded" left-wingers all the time. There is a disturbingly consistent presentation.

1) YOU DISAGREE WITH ME SO YOU ARE A RADICAL INDIVIDUALIST WHO CARES NOTHING ABOUT ANYONE BUT YOURSELF
2) YOU MUST BE RICH AND LOOKING OUT FOR YOUR OWN GREEDY INTERESTS.
3) YOU ARE A CORPORATE SHILL SELLOUT
4) YOU'RE IGNORANT

Generally in that specific order. Maybe you skipped #3, but you definitely hit #1, #2, and #4 there.

I try to just head them off rather than prolong their suffering. Give this a few more bouts and you'll be ready to ignore me, lest you actually start thinking differently from your overlords.

As for your finances, you've worked in child protection, as a military liason, and as a social anthropologist. Unless you're making up your professional past, you've made pretty good money, I know what the government typically pays its social workers and civilian military personnel.



[Edited 12/6/2012 10:08:28 PM ]

12/7/2012 7:25:08 PM Welfare Recipients  
jokethem
Over 4,000 Posts! (6,151)
Kansas City, KS
63, joined Feb. 2012


Obama to Spend $10.3 Trillion on Welfare: Uncovering the Full Cost of Means-Tested Welfare or Aid to the Poor

September 16, 2009


Yea, By my math 10.3 Trillion is a bit more than 3 Billion. Whats your say?



[Edited 12/7/2012 7:26:31 PM ]

12/7/2012 8:23:19 PM Welfare Recipients  

58dpilot
Springdale, AR
62, joined May. 2012


It is simple. People need to be responsible for themseles. We have a socialologist here that disagrees. That is no new relelation as that is how her education indoctrinated her. We have people that take are of themselves, and we have helpless people, too. My question is simple and fundamental. What makes it so important to care for people that are simply a drag on the rest of us especially when survival is the point? Where does one draw the line between those that can and those that can't? Fundamentally who deserves to make it and surive? In the proteo days of "Lucy", who survived? Who are we to to upset the balance of nature? Who are we to go against the will of God and the universe? Who are we? Are we so signified that we think we can change the natural balance of eveolution? Somebody tell me. I'm very weary of giving my life's blood to people that obviously don't deserve it and simply breed more entitlement. Anyoneo care to explain why I should?

12/8/2012 10:07:40 AM Welfare Recipients  
jokethem
Over 4,000 Posts! (6,151)
Kansas City, KS
63, joined Feb. 2012


just an opinion. I wish the government would not subsidize private companies but I would rather the gov subsidize a company that produces jobs and taxes than to subsidize private citizens that just suck up taxes and the countries wealth.

12/8/2012 11:03:35 AM Welfare Recipients  
dawgpaws
Townsend, MA
67, joined Sep. 2012


Quote from nfries88:

As for your finances, you've worked in child protection, as a military liason, and as a social anthropologist. Unless you're making up your professional past, you've made pretty good money, I know what the government typically pays its social workers and civilian military personnel.

I never worked for the military - I worked for the state. I also worked for the Salvation Army - and then tend to pay starvation wages. You are making incredible presumptions. That's okay. Just keep making them. You don't know nearly what you believe you do - which is one for the reasons I find American Libertarianism so incredibly weird.

12/8/2012 11:04:47 AM Welfare Recipients  
dawgpaws
Townsend, MA
67, joined Sep. 2012


Quote from jokethem:
just an opinion. I wish the government would not subsidize private companies but I would rather the gov subsidize a company that produces jobs and taxes than to subsidize private citizens that just suck up taxes and the countries wealth.

Instead we subsidize companies that send jobs off shore. Stop subsidizing any company that off-shores jobs.

12/8/2012 11:53:28 AM Welfare Recipients  
jokethem
Over 4,000 Posts! (6,151)
Kansas City, KS
63, joined Feb. 2012


Quote from dawgpaws:
Instead we subsidize companies that send jobs off shore. Stop subsidizing any company that off-shores jobs.


Not all companies send jobs overseas. And if you want to go there, than do this, go to any "American" made car dealership, and look at the new car sticker. Um, not much of this so called american made car is actually made in america and our current president tsaw fit to subsidize them. One more since you bring it up, Check out GE, where did theyjust last year send their Medical Research headquarters? And if I'm not mistaken the person who runs GE is also our current presidents Job Czar and GE was also sibsidized. How many of those jobs did those even those two examples produce for the american working class while being subsidized?

Understand you are trying to make a point with a double edged sword. I agree with you that not only companies who send work overseas as well as companies that don't need to stop being subsidized. However, let go one step more. Why do companies send our jobs over? Because it is cheaper labor, less retrictions AND less taxes. If you want to stop sibsidizing, first lower corp taxes to below the rest of the world. Become more reasonable with all the restrictions companies have to work under, and (not to dog the unions)get your labor cost more reasonable. Did you know that "union" labor ADDS nearly 1/3 to the shelf cost of a finished produce cost?

Also my guess is, in the big sceme of things, few companies send jobs overseas. While I think you have an idea of what your talking about, there is plenty you are not taking into your equation.

12/8/2012 12:03:55 PM Welfare Recipients  
dawgpaws
Townsend, MA
67, joined Sep. 2012


Quote from 58dpilot:
It is simple. People need to be responsible for themseles. We have a socialologist here that disagrees. That is no new relelation as that is how her education indoctrinated her. We have people that take are of themselves, and we have helpless people, too. My question is simple and fundamental. What makes it so important to care for people that are simply a drag on the rest of us especially when survival is the point? Where does one draw the line between those that can and those that can't? Fundamentally who deserves to make it and surive? In the proteo days of "Lucy", who survived? Who are we to to upset the balance of nature? Who are we to go against the will of God and the universe? Who are we? Are we so signified that we think we can change the natural balance of eveolution? Somebody tell me. I'm very weary of giving my life's blood to people that obviously don't deserve it and simply breed more entitlement. Anyoneo care to explain why I should?


You never heard me say, "People need not be responsible."

If my education in Idaho - which is full of people who are so conservative that they make Ron Paul look like Ted Kennedy - is liberal then so be it.

Okay, a child falls in the water, drowns, is rescued and has brain damage. When do we execute that child as unfit to live? Are you willing to be the person killing everyone you think is a drain on society?

Oddly enough, there is an industry of people who care for others and make salaries and pay taxes and contribute to society. But I don’t suppose you thought of that.

Further, if you’re going to cite ancient hominids, maybe you should look closer than Lucy since she was not human. We were not “human” until Homo sapiens sapiens came into the picture about 200k years ago.

By that time we have evidence in both the Cro-Magnon and Neanderthal lines that there were terribly disabled individuals who were cared for by the group for many years. Oops, guess they didn't kill the halt and the lame - they actually and cared for them.

What you are touting is Eugenics. Modern Eugenics came from Britain and the US and Nazi Germany used our methods to kill disabled, mentally ill, and "immoral" people. Through this Liberal (yes, Liberal) creation of Eugenics, we helped create the death camps in Europe. It was pretty much the end of Eugenics in the US - it is a discredited theory.

I grew up in a very conservative farming community. If the neighbor sustained losses we helped him. The only way human kind became dominant was by being interdependent. Not co-dependent – interdependent. Mountain men did not build cities and create culture. People who were reliant on each other did.

I'm in a very conservative group of folks (which has far too many radical Libertarians for my taste, but they do learn over time) which cleaves together and we do care for the halt and the lame among us - although the disabled Libertarians among us do depend on SSI and SSDI since they are in wheelchairs. We would disagree with killing them as a drain upon society.

You don’t have to do anything. Really. Don’t give your blood. But don’t use Veteran’s benefits either because those are paid for by taxes. Don’t drive on roads paid for by taxes. Don’t use anything you did not create with your own hands without any input from anyone else – not even buying the seed to grow the crops. I do not believe that all you folks who tout doing it all on your own ever did so except between your ears.

John Donne said it best:

No man is an island,?
Entire of itself.?
Each is a piece of the continent,?
A part of the main.?
If a clod be washed away by the sea,?
Europe is the less.?
As well as if a promontory were.?
As well as if a manor of thine own?
Or of thine friend's were.
Each man's death diminishes me,?
For I am involved in mankind.?
Therefore, send not to know?
For whom the bell tolls,?
It tolls for thee.


12/8/2012 4:06:21 PM Welfare Recipients  

nfries88
Newark, NY
28, joined Nov. 2011


Quote from dawgpaws:
I never worked for the military - I worked for the state. I also worked for the Salvation Army - and then tend to pay starvation wages. You are making incredible presumptions. That's okay. Just keep making them. You don't know nearly what you believe you do - which is one for the reasons I find American Libertarianism so incredibly weird.


Then tell me, how much did you make at the Salvation Army? Since you seem to believe a person can't eat healthy with $4/day budgeted towards food (which I know to be false), I'd bet you were making the equivalent of $10/hr and seriously believe that's "starvation wages".

I do presume -- quite a bit. And I'm generally correct in my presumptions. But I don't presume anything to the scale that you do. I presume about individuals, especially those who are already following common and predictable behavior, not about the whole of civilization. To do that would be simple absurd.



[Edited 12/8/2012 4:09:17 PM ]

12/8/2012 4:49:44 PM Welfare Recipients  
dawgpaws
Townsend, MA
67, joined Sep. 2012


Quote from nfries88:
Then tell me, how much did you make at the Salvation Army? Since you seem to believe a person can't eat healthy with $4/day budgeted towards food (which I know to be false), I'd bet you were making the equivalent of $10/hr and seriously believe that's "starvation wages".

I do presume -- quite a bit. And I'm generally correct in my presumptions. But I don't presume anything to the scale that you do. I presume about individuals, especially those who are already following common and predictable behavior, not about the whole of civilization. To do that would be simple absurd.


You presume I can eat the same food that you do, which I can't - because of physical health reasons. Nor can my adult daughter. Nor can many people.

My elderly clients can't eat on $4 a day either. They have extremely specialized needs regarding what they can and can't eat. One poor woman almost bled to death from attempting to combine cheap foods with blood thinners - her legs went entirely black. It was hair-raising when I saw her. I was not representing her regarding her food and health care, but I was appalled and was beating the bushes for alternatives for her. You can't wring more from SNAP benefits than can be wrung - even if you're in your 90's.

Generally, when someone makes a demand for that type of information (my finances) I tell them to go stick their head where the sun don't shine since it is intrusive, rude, and ignorant. However, I got to wondering just how much I did get so I did the math. At the time I worked for the Army I made $8.72 an hour working a 40 hour week - anything over 40 hours was not compensated - I was salaried - and I was the sole support of a family of three including a seriously disabled child. However, this is the last bit of information on my former finances you'll ever get.

Healthy arrogance is only a good thing if there is some sort of base supporting it. Yours does not appear to be healthy nor well based.

I make presumptions based upon world outlook - such as the radical Libertarian stance in America. I know all too many Libertarians. The European ones are fine. The non-radicals are fine. The radicals frustrate me with their inability to think outside the box they've put themselves in. (sigh)

12/8/2012 5:00:10 PM Welfare Recipients  
dawgpaws
Townsend, MA
67, joined Sep. 2012


Quote from jokethem:
Not all companies send jobs overseas. And if you want to go there, than do this, go to any "American" made car dealership, and look at the new car sticker. Um, not much of this so called american made car is actually made in america and our current president tsaw fit to subsidize them. One more since you bring it up, Check out GE, where did theyjust last year send their Medical Research headquarters? And if I'm not mistaken the person who runs GE is also our current presidents Job Czar and GE was also sibsidized. How many of those jobs did those even those two examples produce for the american working class while being subsidized?

Understand you are trying to make a point with a double edged sword. I agree with you that not only companies who send work overseas as well as companies that don't need to stop being subsidized. However, let go one step more. Why do companies send our jobs over? Because it is cheaper labor, less retrictions AND less taxes. If you want to stop sibsidizing, first lower corp taxes to below the rest of the world. Become more reasonable with all the restrictions companies have to work under, and (not to dog the unions)get your labor cost more reasonable. Did you know that "union" labor ADDS nearly 1/3 to the shelf cost of a finished produce cost?

Also my guess is, in the big sceme of things, few companies send jobs overseas. While I think you have an idea of what your talking about, there is plenty you are not taking into your equation.


You might be surprised. When my book got picked up by an international publisher owned by a European company my acquisition editor was in the US, Copy editor was in Canada and the managing editor back here. It all went fairly well until they send the book to India for what amounts to typesetting. OMG! The galleys were dreadful. I bucked and fumed and in the end when the book came out it was missing material and had material not belonging to me inserted in it. I am one unhappy camper, but my contract doesn't give me much wiggle room. If I publish again I'll go the route of the new options of self-publication.

When Romney was governor he outsourced state jobs to India - it was a mess. We don't need call centers in India to handle American governmental functions. That really finished him with me - and I voted for him for governor. Not to start a political argument, but to point out how much is outsourced.

Before you kvetch at the unions, be aware that all those 3rd world countries are unionizing as fast as they can because of the wild abuses going on there. And god bless 'em. Just call me "Union Girl" because I used to work for a union and I have been in mostly unionized workplaces in my life.

Of course there is cheaper labor and less restrictions - and we regularly impose life-endangering work on people we can't see. Like Walmart just did in a factory fire were a lot of folks were killed.

But more than that - we should ask:
Do you like a 40 hour week? Yes - thank the unions for that.
Like two days a week off? Yes - thank the unions for that.
Like the concept of a lunch hour and breaks? Yes - thank the unions for that.
And so on and so forth
Much of what unions have gotten us are things we now take for granted - like having holidays off - with pay.

I do my darndest to by local, buy union, buy American. Sometimes it means doing without - fortunately, I live a very frugal life.

12/8/2012 5:07:40 PM Welfare Recipients  

nfries88
Newark, NY
28, joined Nov. 2011


You made $0.30/hr less on "starvation wages" than I do, but had the benefit of working more hours. And from the way you're talking about it, this doesn't sound recent. Given the tendency of prices to rise, you most likely made more than me in terms of genuine purchasing power if this is correct.

Granted, I have the benefit of having no dependents, but you also made more (not inflation adjusted) than best friend who has a child and is the primary provider (his girlfriend does work part-time) does presently.

Also, I work 6 days a week, and average about 35 hours each week. So apparently the unions didn't do much for me. That said, I actually differ from libertarians and the right on the issue of unions: they are a generally good thing, even if some specific unions are more 'oppressive' (for lack of a more appropriate term coming to mind) to those they represent than the employers themselves.



[Edited 12/8/2012 5:10:59 PM ]

12/8/2012 6:41:45 PM Welfare Recipients  
dawgpaws
Townsend, MA
67, joined Sep. 2012


Quote from nfries88:
You made $0.30/hr less on "starvation wages" than I do, but had the benefit of working more hours. And from the way you're talking about it, this doesn't sound recent. Given the tendency of prices to rise, you most likely made more than me in terms of genuine purchasing power if this is correct.

Granted, I have the benefit of having no dependents, but you also made more (not inflation adjusted) than best friend who has a child and is the primary provider (his girlfriend does work part-time) does presently.

Also, I work 6 days a week, and average about 35 hours each week. So apparently the unions didn't do much for me. That said, I actually differ from libertarians and the right on the issue of unions: they are a generally good thing, even if some specific unions are more 'oppressive' (for lack of a more appropriate term coming to mind) to those they represent than the employers themselves.


It was not recently, however, the same wage structure applies today. It is not uncommon to be paid less than $10 an hour for professional work in non-profits.

I doubt that there is parity since it was in Alaska during a time of high inflation. We paid more for a gallon of milk there at that time than it costs in the stores here right now. The lower 48 is mostly very inexpensive to live in by comparison. That being said, I'd go back in a heartbeat and move in with my old roommate again. The kind of work I've done has been high stress and sometimes high profile, but never well paid.

12/8/2012 10:07:50 PM Welfare Recipients  
jokethem
Over 4,000 Posts! (6,151)
Kansas City, KS
63, joined Feb. 2012


Quote from dawgpaws:
You might be surprised. When my book got picked up by an international publisher owned by a European company my acquisition editor was in the US, Copy editor was in Canada and the managing editor back here. It all went fairly well until they send the book to India for what amounts to typesetting. OMG! The galleys were dreadful. I bucked and fumed and in the end when the book came out it was missing material and had material not belonging to me inserted in it. I am one unhappy camper, but my contract doesn't give me much wiggle room. If I publish again I'll go the route of the new options of self-publication.

When Romney was governor he outsourced state jobs to India - it was a mess. We don't need call centers in India to handle American governmental functions. That really finished him with me - and I voted for him for governor. Not to start a political argument, but to point out how much is outsourced.

Before you kvetch at the unions, be aware that all those 3rd world countries are unionizing as fast as they can because of the wild abuses going on there. And god bless 'em. Just call me "Union Girl" because I used to work for a union and I have been in mostly unionized workplaces in my life.

Of course there is cheaper labor and less restrictions - and we regularly impose life-endangering work on people we can't see. Like Walmart just did in a factory fire were a lot of folks were killed.

But more than that - we should ask:
Do you like a 40 hour week? Yes - thank the unions for that.
Like two days a week off? Yes - thank the unions for that.
Like the concept of a lunch hour and breaks? Yes - thank the unions for that.
And so on and so forth
Much of what unions have gotten us are things we now take for granted - like having holidays off - with pay.

I do my darndest to by local, buy union, buy American. Sometimes it means doing without - fortunately, I live a very frugal life.



Will address the rest later but just to inform you I too was union. Teamsters 696 in Topeka Ks, for nearly 20 years including an office holder. So I know unions. What I told you about unions labor adding 1/3 cost to the final product is not opinion of mine, it is FACT.

12/8/2012 10:44:43 PM Welfare Recipients  
jokethem
Over 4,000 Posts! (6,151)
Kansas City, KS
63, joined Feb. 2012


Quote from dawgpaws:
You might be surprised. When my book got picked up by an international publisher owned by a European company my acquisition editor was in the US, Copy editor was in Canada and the managing editor back here. It all went fairly well until they send the book to India for what amounts to typesetting. OMG! The galleys were dreadful. I bucked and fumed and in the end when the book came out it was missing material and had material not belonging to me inserted in it. I am one unhappy camper, but my contract doesn't give me much wiggle room. If I publish again I'll go the route of the new options of self-publication.

When Romney was governor he outsourced state jobs to India - it was a mess. We don't need call centers in India to handle American governmental functions. That really finished him with me - and I voted for him for governor. Not to start a political argument, but to point out how much is outsourced.

Before you kvetch at the unions, be aware that all those 3rd world countries are unionizing as fast as they can because of the wild abuses going on there. And god bless 'em. Just call me "Union Girl" because I used to work for a union and I have been in mostly unionized workplaces in my life.

Of course there is cheaper labor and less restrictions - and we regularly impose life-endangering work on people we can't see. Like Walmart just did in a factory fire were a lot of folks were killed.

But more than that - we should ask:
Do you like a 40 hour week? Yes - thank the unions for that.
Like two days a week off? Yes - thank the unions for that.
Like the concept of a lunch hour and breaks? Yes - thank the unions for that.
And so on and so forth
Much of what unions have gotten us are things we now take for granted - like having holidays off - with pay.

I do my darndest to by local, buy union, buy American. Sometimes it means doing without - fortunately, I live a very frugal life.




First let me say congrats on your book deal. Ok now that the nice nice is out of the way let get into the mud.
"...life endangering work...Like Walmart just did in a factory fire... *BS!* mama. Yes Walmart did buy from this company in Bangladash but is Walmart the ONLY company throughout this wide world who bought from this sweat shop? No! Try these companies also: Disney, Old Navy, Spalding, Sears. Lets throw these in also, Gucci, The Gap, H&M, and 66 other western companies and world wide. Oh, and as a side note, there is some question as to marine uniforms found at the fire site. And if I'm not mistaken, the US Marines are owned by the US Government. So please stop with your onesided talking points and bumper stickers. What you stated here about walmart being responcable for the death of those workers just because walmart bought from them is plan grade A bull crap.

As for what "we" have recieved thanks to the union, so fricking what, that was 50 years ago AND don't forget mama, there were companies who agree to these benefits. It is NOT like these benefits just magicly appeared just because of the union. A person who is smart enough to write a book should also be smart enough to know there is two parts to every story.

Once more, "buy american"? Try finding and buying an American Made" car.

12/8/2012 11:00:46 PM Welfare Recipients  
jokethem
Over 4,000 Posts! (6,151)
Kansas City, KS
63, joined Feb. 2012


@dawg, I sure hope you put more research into your book subject than you did in your last post to me. BTW, what is your books subject?

I was not trying to be mean but I am sick of narrow minded, onesided, uneducated/unresearched people (not saying you are) dumping on Walmart and/or any corp. There are so many people on here and out there that simply close their eyes to what could be and in most cases, what is the truth and what is bumper stickers for a policial party or thought. I have nothing for Walmart but I have everything against people who refuse to use their own brain.

12/8/2012 11:06:29 PM Welfare Recipients  
jokethem
Over 4,000 Posts! (6,151)
Kansas City, KS
63, joined Feb. 2012


Quote from nfries88:
Yes, and churches used to burn atheists at the stake. Many modern Christians would love for atheists to shut the hell up, but not that way. Agreeing with the ends (the poor are fed, clothed, and housed) does not make the means appropriate.




oh whaaaaaa. In my history book it was witches that got burned on the cross. Are you now changing history? Um, I must be more modern than the modern christians you speek of. I personally would like to see atheist tarred and feathers, ran over by a steam roller and than burned.

12/8/2012 11:09:12 PM Welfare Recipients  

nfries88
Newark, NY
28, joined Nov. 2011


Quote from dawgpaws:
It was not recently, however, the same wage structure applies today. It is not uncommon to be paid less than $10 an hour for professional work in non-profits.

I doubt that there is parity since it was in Alaska during a time of high inflation. We paid more for a gallon of milk there at that time than it costs in the stores here right now. The lower 48 is mostly very inexpensive to live in by comparison. That being said, I'd go back in a heartbeat and move in with my old roommate again. The kind of work I've done has been high stress and sometimes high profile, but never well paid.


Oh, it was in Alaska? That might have been a legitimate starvation wage then, Alaska and Hawaii are particularly expensive places to live. I was assuming you were in one of the other 48 states.

12/9/2012 9:21:57 AM Welfare Recipients  

58dpilot
Springdale, AR
62, joined May. 2012


The fundamental problem doesn't lie exclusively with welfare recipients. They are only part of the problem. The whole problem isn't the unions, nor is it "corporate welfare". The fundamental problem is government trying to do too much for too many.

Welfare is a trap. It's recipients are given just enough to make working less attractive than sitting.

Unions had their day and may have helped foster things like a 40 hour work week, reformed child labor laws, and argued for benefits but they have become burdomsome, counter productive, and greedy.

As far as corporate welfare goes one can easily add tax loopholes, government grants and loans, and various other forms of favored status to the list.

All of these things have one thing in common. It is government. Government tries to do too much for too many and in the end actully does more harm than good.

A few examples include the the following:

It is a fact that unfunded liabilities with regard to unionized public sector employee benefits and retirements will bankrupt states and in a practical sense already has. The private sector cannot produce enough wealth to cover those liabilities even if taxed at 100%. Government's protection of the unions that perpetrate this madness is destructive.

Welfare recipients cannot afford to get off programs because there are no jobs that can provide the current level of benefits they enjoy especially given the social conditions they are bound to. People currently on welfare would have to make at least $10-12 an hour with medical benefits provided at no cost to equal what they already receive free. There are not enough jobs to accomplish that if you could get them to actually get one.

Welfare is only one unfunded assistance program among many that together cost as much as the funded programs social security and medicare combined.

Government tries to choose winners and losers in the marketplace while farmers lobby for agricultural subsidies and other groups lobby for and win their own benefits from the national treasury. In the meantime corporations go overseas in search of cheap labor, fewer restictions and government rules, lower operating costs, and favorable tax environments.

People make people, parents make responsible people, business does business, a free society promotes freedom and they all do it naturally and well without government's guidling hand. Our problem isn't lazy people, it a government that promotes laziness and punishes those that are industrious.

The best solution is to get the government off people's backs. Everyone's back, including those on welfare.

12/10/2012 5:21:04 PM Welfare Recipients  
dawgpaws
Townsend, MA
67, joined Sep. 2012


Quote from jokethem:
@dawg, I sure hope you put more research into your book subject than you did in your last post to me. BTW, what is your books subject?

I was not trying to be mean but I am sick of narrow minded, onesided, uneducated/unresearched people (not saying you are) dumping on Walmart and/or any corp. There are so many people on here and out there that simply close their eyes to what could be and in most cases, what is the truth and what is bumper stickers for a policial party or thought. I have nothing for Walmart but I have everything against people who refuse to use their own brain.


It is a book/workbook on how to pass the essay portion of the Mass bar, which is the 3rd hardest bar in the US - New York is 2nd, and the hardest is California with the Baby Bar and the three day bar. Mass is looking at going to a 3 day bar. My writing partner and I sell more copies overseas in Canada, South Africa, (old British Commonwealth) and Oz than anywhere else because it is a very well-crafted book that is apparently very helpful in those bar venues. The law is obviously different, but the thought process to apply it is the same.

However, it is an exceedingly small market and an almost unheard of book except among people who struggling to pass this high stakes test. I also do bar prep. Most of my students have failed at least twice and are at varying stages of desperation. If they do what I tell them to they pass. If they blow me off, they don't. It is pretty simple - do the work and learn the material or pay $800 (or more) to take the test again.

As to dumping on corporations - generally, I do. They are soulless creations beholding to shareholders and have no morals because they are not human, although they have been granted citizenship status by the Courts (starting out with a notation from a court reporter that grew into the obscenity of corporate citizenship of today). One of the courses I used to teach prep for in law school was Business Associations (Corporations, Partnerships, etc.) and I came to loath just about everything except a sole proprietorship or flow through partnerships. Even closed corporations can be horribly corrupt. Individuals can be corrupt too, but you can send a human being to jail - try sending Arthur Anderson to jail. Only a few of the really corrupt people in corporations ever take a dive.

My ethics come from my background. My Dad was in the FBI and later a judge. I tend to be a law and order sort of person with a few notable exceptions.

As to individual research on issues, I'd have to go back and look. And tonight is not the night I'm going to do it. Two deliberately rugged days at the gym and a hard run (literally) with the dog and I'm dead on my feet tonight. Tomorrow is another day.

G'night, sleep tight, and if you've bedbugs ... I don't do tort law.

12/10/2012 5:36:34 PM Welfare Recipients  
dawgpaws
Townsend, MA
67, joined Sep. 2012


Quote from 58dpilot:

Unions had their day and may have helped foster things like a 40 hour work week, reformed child labor laws, and argued for benefits but they have become burdomsome, counter productive, and greedy.


A note before I stagger off to bed...

I worked for SEIU Local 888, Charlestown. My membership were often mentally disabled floor washers and lunch ladies. I used to be the call in-line for issues for the entire state. I've had to deal with PITA managers who were more like Stalin than you'd like to imagine. To your comment about unions - I will simply respond to the heaping pile of steaming dung you put out with the commentary that you have no freaking idea what you are talking about.

You go work for a union for a few years - especially a public employee based union - where they can't strike. Where a diabetic woman illegally terminated for being drunk when they knew she was diabetic - she was having blood sugar problems. Where we arbitrated (and won) against a major metro area for holding file clerks to the same standard as uniformed police officers. We have gotten huge judgments when the actions of public employers were so egregious that people lost their homes. And it could have been avoided by a common sense approach.

Yes, I had a few members who were problem people, but we also dealt managerial bullies who should have been terminated for their abusive tactics. Ultimately, we won more than we lost and mostly what we won was the rights of workers not to be abused.

Okay - enough - I've had it for now.

May not be around for awhile - I've got people coming out my ears for the next two days.

12/10/2012 9:04:00 PM Welfare Recipients  

58dpilot
Springdale, AR
62, joined May. 2012


Quote from dawgpaws:
A note before I stagger off to bed...

I worked for SEIU Local 888, Charlestown. My membership were often mentally disabled floor washers and lunch ladies. I used to be the call in-line for issues for the entire state. I've had to deal with PITA managers who were more like Stalin than you'd like to imagine. To your comment about unions - I will simply respond to the heaping pile of steaming dung you put out with the commentary that you have no freaking idea what you are talking about.

You go work for a union for a few years - especially a public employee based union - where they can't strike. Where a diabetic woman illegally terminated for being drunk when they knew she was diabetic - she was having blood sugar problems. Where we arbitrated (and won) against a major metro area for holding file clerks to the same standard as uniformed police officers. We have gotten huge judgments when the actions of public employers were so egregious that people lost their homes. And it could have been avoided by a common sense approach.

Yes, I had a few members who were problem people, but we also dealt managerial bullies who should have been terminated for their abusive tactics. Ultimately, we won more than we lost and mostly what we won was the rights of workers not to be abused.

Okay - enough - I've had it for now.

May not be around for awhile - I've got people coming out my ears for the next two days.


If you go lookinig for the kind of problems you describe, and apparently you have made a career of it, you can find them. Regardless, the problems you describe are not pandemic across every industry, town, city, country, state or the Nation as a whole. The squeaky wheel gets the grease, but not all wheels are squeaky and some don't need grease at all.

Just like you have to sift through tons of dirt to find a sinle nugget of gold or precious stone, if you look hard enough you can find a hard luck case or two among people. While their mumbers are growing for a variety of reasons that have mostly to do with either government meddling or themselves, the reality is that the most people don't have the kinds of problems you are so concerned with.

Maybe what some of these needy people need is to learn how to not be so needy....kind of like that part where you teach them to fish rather than feed them for free.

12/12/2012 2:51:26 AM Welfare Recipients  
jokethem
Over 4,000 Posts! (6,151)
Kansas City, KS
63, joined Feb. 2012


Quote from 58dpilot:
If you go lookinig for the kind of problems you describe, and apparently you have made a career of it, you can find them. Regardless, the problems you describe are not pandemic across every industry, town, city, country, state or the Nation as a whole. The squeaky wheel gets the grease, but not all wheels are squeaky and some don't need grease at all.

Just like you have to sift through tons of dirt to find a sinle nugget of gold or precious stone, if you look hard enough you can find a hard luck case or two among people. While their mumbers are growing for a variety of reasons that have mostly to do with either government meddling or themselves, the reality is that the most people don't have the kinds of problems you are so concerned with.

Maybe what some of these needy people need is to learn how to not be so needy....kind of like that part where you teach them to fish rather than feed them for free.




True it takes little to come up with a person real or not to make a point. Only is the above case herstory of this poor woman reminds me of politicians. "Just last month I talked with Joe from Texas and his wife and twenty kids..."

Sure there can be and are bad managers but there also bad union folks. I supervised the vice president of teamsters local 696 during the last 8 years. This guy brought so much bad light from his fellow public employees upon the union that even the union wished they could get him out of office. Well in time, he took care of that himself. He got himself fired. So while she can come up with ONE persons story, so can I and with a little research, she can find out just who this person is other just Joe from Texas.

12/12/2012 9:28:30 AM Welfare Recipients  

58dpilot
Springdale, AR
62, joined May. 2012


For many collecting disability has become a career. In the last 50 years the number of people on SSI disability has grown from 455,000 to 8.6 million. Currently 5.6% of adults are collecting it at a cost of $130 billion a year. That doesn't count the children receiving benefits.

Because in recent years the government has relaxed standards and now readily accepts unverifiable aliments like mood disorders, depression, back, knee, and joint pain 50% of disability payments are going to people with ailments doctors cannot observe or disprove. At the same time malpractice liability concerns prevent doctors from weeding out the malingerers.

Between 2010 and 2011 1,730,00 new jobs were created and and 790,000 people were added to the SSI disability rolls. This phenomenon indicates that many people are "gaming" or simply defrauding the system. In tough economic times where we face mountains of unsustainable debt we cannot afford to pay millions of people healthy enough to do honest work to sit on their asses.



[Edited 12/12/2012 9:30:14 AM ]

12/21/2012 5:09:06 PM Welfare Recipients  
cupocheer
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (252,270)
Assumption, IL
68, joined May. 2010


for every dollar of social welfare funds which go to help the country's poor ... how many more social welfare dollars go to the rich, governing classes (because they are the truly big welfare recipients)?

12/21/2012 5:56:12 PM Welfare Recipients  

58dpilot
Springdale, AR
62, joined May. 2012


Well darn...this cliff is a b*tch. The child deduction goes back to $1500, how is "mom" gonna afford a newer car with what she gets back next year? Better goet a good one this year, honey....or better yet, a responsible husband rather than the several that spawned the illigitmates you are saddled with.


12/21/2012 11:18:22 PM Welfare Recipients  
jokethem
Over 4,000 Posts! (6,151)
Kansas City, KS
63, joined Feb. 2012


@ cup. Good question cup. Please infor us. Now a question for you. How many welfare dollars that go to help the poor of this country, employ people helping to keep employed people from joining the poor?



[Edited 12/21/2012 11:19:31 PM ]

12/24/2012 6:09:35 AM Welfare Recipients  

tonyzero
Over 1,000 Posts (1,381)
Mountain Home, ID
96, joined Apr. 2010


Quote from 58dpilot:
For many collecting disability has become a career. In the last 50 years the number of people on SSI disability has grown from 455,000 to 8.6 million. Currently 5.6% of adults are collecting it at a cost of $130 billion a year. That doesn't count the children receiving benefits.

Because in recent years the government has relaxed standards and now readily accepts unverifiable aliments like mood disorders, depression, back, knee, and joint pain 50% of disability payments are going to people with ailments doctors cannot observe or disprove. At the same time malpractice liability concerns prevent doctors from weeding out the malingerers.

Between 2010 and 2011 1,730,00 new jobs were created and and 790,000 people were added to the SSI disability rolls. This phenomenon indicates that many people are "gaming" or simply defrauding the system. In tough economic times where we face mountains of unsustainable debt we cannot afford to pay millions of people healthy enough to do honest work to sit on their asses.

Sorry, you're using the wrong statistics for Supplemental Security Income. There are 4.5 million on those roles.
Social Security Disability is a different program altogether and far more difficult to prove eligibility.
For the SS Disability program, there has to be 'verifiable' proof of a medical condition from a medical professional/and or professionals. In addition, the benefits from SSDI are based on a person's payroll tax deductions over a lifetime as the SS Retirement is. If there's no job history, there's no benefit. Those of us on SSDI have paid into the system.
In addition, the rise in disability claims is understandable considering the baby boomers aging and physical damage from decades of labor manifesting.
SSDI is not a 'welfare' program but a 'paid for' entitlement.
On the other hand, the SSI benefit is a form of welfare.

12/24/2012 6:30:59 AM Welfare Recipients  

tonyzero
Over 1,000 Posts (1,381)
Mountain Home, ID
96, joined Apr. 2010


Quote from 58dpilot:
Government shouldn't be spending anything to help anyone or anything in terms of welfare. The less government we have and the less intrusive it is the better. Politicans promise everything to everyone and attempt to provide it with government. We see the result of that in trillions of unfunded benefits first to government workers and then to 47% of the people in this country that rely on some form of government intervention or assistance in terms of money, food, housing, health care, and other free things like cell phones.

The result is unsustainable debt and long term unfunded obligations that are probably already unserviceable even by our great grandchildren's children. The government isn't helping anyone, they are merely racing us to collapse and eventual destruction just like they have done every 70 to 80 years since this great experiment started. The third round of that is fast approaching. Each depression has been ugly and each worse than the one before it. This one is going to be a real "doozie"!

Sit back and watch and try to enjoy the show. There is nothing anyone can do about it now. We're just going to have to do the best we can to get through it. Shed your dollars and stocks and buy silver and gold, stock up on tangibles, and find a nice, safe, isolated place to ride it out.

So what portion of every federal tax dollar is spent on 'welfare'?

Again, your statistics on the 47% don't bear out.
They are the people that don't pay any federal income tax, and many aren't on the government assistance doles. Senior on SS. Students in college. The working poor, and the just plain old poor. Also thousands of the rich elite.

12/24/2012 10:39:08 AM Welfare Recipients  

jrbogie1949
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (13,851)
Ventura, CA
68, joined Mar. 2009


Quote from dawgpaws:
A note before I stagger off to bed...

I worked for SEIU Local 888, Charlestown. My membership were often mentally disabled floor washers and lunch ladies. I used to be the call in-line for issues for the entire state. I've had to deal with PITA managers who were more like Stalin than you'd like to imagine. To your comment about unions - I will simply respond to the heaping pile of steaming dung you put out with the commentary that you have no freaking idea what you are talking about.

You go work for a union for a few years - especially a public employee based union - where they can't strike. Where a diabetic woman illegally terminated for being drunk when they knew she was diabetic - she was having blood sugar problems. Where we arbitrated (and won) against a major metro area for holding file clerks to the same standard as uniformed police officers. We have gotten huge judgments when the actions of public employers were so egregious that people lost their homes. And it could have been avoided by a common sense approach.

Yes, I had a few members who were problem people, but we also dealt managerial bullies who should have been terminated for their abusive tactics. Ultimately, we won more than we lost and mostly what we won was the rights of workers not to be abused.

Okay - enough - I've had it for now.

May not be around for awhile - I've got people coming out my ears for the next two days.



sheesh, marsh, a diabetic who gets drunk is too dumb to work.

12/24/2012 3:12:44 PM Welfare Recipients  
cupocheer
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (252,270)
Assumption, IL
68, joined May. 2010




12/24/2012 4:40:43 PM Welfare Recipients  
rhw044
Springfield, ME
58, joined Jun. 2012


Quote from jrbogie1949:
sheesh, marsh, a diabetic who gets drunk is too dumb to work.

She probably wasn't drunk... low blood sugar will make her seem that way.
Also their breath can smell "fruity" like they've been drinking wine... I don't recall the exact reason/symptom of that.

It's amazing what you learn from a simple first aid course.

12/24/2012 5:20:48 PM Welfare Recipients  

jrbogie1949
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (13,851)
Ventura, CA
68, joined Mar. 2009


i'd think that if she wasn't drunk marsh wouldn't have said she was drunk. did your first aid class suggest that drinking alcohol by diabetics was advisable?

12/24/2012 6:10:41 PM Welfare Recipients  
cupocheer
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (252,270)
Assumption, IL
68, joined May. 2010


drinking alcohol, by diabetics, is not advisable as alcohol converts rapidly to sugar and can cause a diabetic to go into diabetic coma ..................... as for using the term "drunk" ...it does not have to mean that one has become intoxicated by alcoholic spirits or drugs ... but may just be a slang expression for feeling like being in an "alcoholic stupor" ..... diabetics (hypo and hyper) use the term "drunk" with regularity for their feeling of "diabetic stupor". tyvm [physicians also use the term "drunk" in regards to this diabetic condition]

12/24/2012 6:56:00 PM Welfare Recipients  
rhw044
Springfield, ME
58, joined Jun. 2012


Quote from jrbogie1949:
i'd think that if she wasn't drunk marsh wouldn't have said she was drunk. did your first aid class suggest that drinking alcohol by diabetics was advisable?



I don't see where she said the woman was drunk; I can see how you might read it that way though.
Where a diabetic woman illegally terminated for being drunk when they knew she was diabetic - she was having blood sugar problems


12/24/2012 7:39:42 PM Welfare Recipients  
cupocheer
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (252,270)
Assumption, IL
68, joined May. 2010


hmmmmmm .... again .... if some says they are drunk (and they are diabetic) they usually, always, state that they need to eat something or get something to balance their blood sugar (because they want others to know they are not "drunk drunk" but having a blood sugar emergency) .................... if someone only said they were "drunk" ... even if they were a known diabetic they probably were drunk and not suffering a blood sugar imbalance

12/24/2012 7:53:20 PM Welfare Recipients  
rhw044
Springfield, ME
58, joined Jun. 2012


Quote from cupocheer:
hmmmmmm .... again .... if some says they are drunk (and they are diabetic) they usually, always, state that they need to eat something or get something to balance their blood sugar (because they want others to know they are not "drunk drunk" but having a blood sugar emergency) .................... if someone only said they were "drunk" ... even if they were a known diabetic they probably were drunk and not suffering a blood sugar imbalance
Good point... but would you please read the post in question before you comment on it? It makes for much more relevant dialog... just saying.

Or read what I snipped; the woman in question had a low blood sugar reaction yet was fired for being drunk.

12/24/2012 8:31:26 PM Welfare Recipients  
cupocheer
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (252,270)
Assumption, IL
68, joined May. 2010


I understand that, RH ... tyvm ... I was playing devil's advocate AND brainstorming at the same time.

If the woman was fired because she was DRUNK or having a DIABETIC emergency it is easy enough for her to prove either status by simply going to the closest emergency room and having blood work drawn up. (If she was having a diabetic emergency she needed to go straight to her ER or Dr, anyway, before she went into a coma.)

Depending on the outcome of the blood work ... if it was a diabetic emergency she was suffering with ... and they fired her for being "intoxicated" (drugs or alcohol) ... then she has a good case for a 'wrongful termination' lawsuit against the employer.

Do you know if the woman sued her former employer?

12/26/2012 6:23:42 PM Welfare Recipients  

58dpilot
Springdale, AR
62, joined May. 2012


There is a new word to decribe the current state of events. Ineptocracy. The biggest problem with allowing welfare to be carried out by the state instead of private charities, is that there is a substantial disconnect between the recipients of charity and those who make the donations.

Thus, there is no gratitude and no intermediary who can remind the beneficiaries of the hard work and good heart of those who are providing their bounty. Rather, the government fosters a sense of "entitlement", which is rapidly followed by unceasing and increasing demands for more and more free stuff by the recipients instead of resolution to get out and improve their own situation.

It is a state where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing where the members of society least likely to sustaion themselves or succeed are rewarded with good and services paid for by the confiscated weallth of a diminishing mumber of producers.

This new "deal" has been growing in depth and breadth for many years and has reached the point that it is unsustainable my any reasonable measure. It is only a matter of time before it collapses and the time is probably closer than most think.

12/31/2012 4:08:12 PM Welfare Recipients  
cupocheer
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (252,270)
Assumption, IL
68, joined May. 2010




1/2/2013 2:10:51 PM Welfare Recipients  

58dpilot
Springdale, AR
62, joined May. 2012


They put a bandaid on it. There is no salvation in that. Extend unemployment? Just kicking the can further down the road until we won't be able to find it. People need to do what they can. Those that unfortunately rely on government to feed them will soon find the trough empty. That's when reality sets in. Ready for it?

1/2/2013 3:16:01 PM Welfare Recipients  
jokethem
Over 4,000 Posts! (6,151)
Kansas City, KS
63, joined Feb. 2012


another question to ask is why are we (this country) Always in a crisis mode? We still have three more crisis to work through coming up in the next few months?

1/3/2013 12:25:17 AM Welfare Recipients  

58dpilot
Springdale, AR
62, joined May. 2012


Depends on your definition of "welfare". Corporate welfare can be something like the Solyndra giveaway and some think of certain business tax deductions as corporate welfare. Subsidies for ethanol producers could be another form of "Corporate welfare" perhaps. I think the the kind being discussed is when an individual person gets a government check for nothing because they are poor or whatever. When you take special interests, etc., into account there is some welfare for almost everybody. Child tax credits are a form of "welfare" if you want to see it that way. These different ideas about what welfare "is" are exactly what make it difficult to debate. It's hard to get people to stay on the topic because they all have different and various ideas and opinions about what it is.

"When basic concepts by postulation are taught without their precise technical meanings they degenerate into vague, mushy verbalism."



1/4/2013 9:57:43 PM Welfare Recipients  
cupocheer
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (252,270)
Assumption, IL
68, joined May. 2010


Who is "WE", please? And then I will tell YOU that the social fund from which welfare funds are drawn is a self-supporting trust (in a manner of speaking). Look it up!

1/5/2013 8:22:04 AM Welfare Recipients  

molark
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (16,971)
Chicago, IL
95, joined Oct. 2012


Quote from 58dpilot:
It is simple. People need to be responsible for themseles. We have a socialologist here that disagrees. That is no new relelation as that is how her education indoctrinated her. We have people that take are of themselves, and we have helpless people, too. My question is simple and fundamental. What makes it so important to care for people that are simply a drag on the rest of us especially when survival is the point? Where does one draw the line between those that can and those that can't? Fundamentally who deserves to make it and surive? In the proteo days of "Lucy", who survived? Who are we to to upset the balance of nature? Who are we to go against the will of God and the universe? Who are we? Are we so signified that we think we can change the natural balance of eveolution? Somebody tell me. I'm very weary of giving my life's blood to people that obviously don't deserve it and simply breed more entitlement. Anyoneo care to explain why I should?


The government needs a better welfare program.

After World War II, government welfare help millions of vets obtain housing, education and job training. They were able to build the suburbs of new buildings outside the cities. The car industry fired up.

My dad was eventually able to buy a house, with my ma also working, on Chicago's South Side. The Lake Meadows housing project development soon moved us house. Indirectly, with GI funds dad was able to get a house on the West Side black ghetto. With those funds, he took up auto repair courses.

William Levitt, early real estate mongrel, created the pattern of the new white suburb that was filled with houses essentially obtained by the GI Bill. Levitt's suburb pattern, started in Long Island, NYC, grew to cover all America.

My dad couldn't move to the suburbs and obtain a house. Our government was not then strong enough to break the racist no-negro covenant clauses in all of Levitt's contracts.

As well, the construction unions made sure they did not hire negroes for work.

Stop right there. Construction unions also continue the same policy today.

Chicago black ghettos were essentially created by the FHA following decades' old mortgage broker policies of not allowing blacks mortgage insurance to move out the ghetto. Hence they constrained the movement of lots of folks around concentrated, over-populated islets of poverty around which there was better housing.

This point remains underscore today. Control black movement, housing and life with discriminatory bank mortgage policies.

Those islets are poverty from where people couldn't escape were firetraps. They eventually lead to crime and such, perpetuating more crime, fulfilling your desired stereotype of the lazy, dangerous black. Thye firetaps were very profitable for insurance companies and predator landlords.

Working blacks like my dad became more determine to move out. As government policy began to change and control the financial predators, my dad was able to move out. He and those who were able to move out of this self-perpetuating yoke of poverty for the benefit of profit are, today, my heroes.

So when you criticize welfare, when you criticize too much government, you forget that some of us need that government to keep the playing field level and American.

But even today, look at the news. Wells Fargo and HSBC sued for continued redlining, discriminatory mortgage policies against blacks and Hispanics. They were sued for charging the poor an impossible bunch of conflicting fees. All the major banks have been sued. Don't you read the news? This stuff came out monthly in 2012.

The speculative move for profit on the mortgage monies of the poor is what had ignited the economic fall. And the government is quietly getting back at the banks by suing them for billions with "no-fault" clauses to avoid the embarrassment of the stench of an unregulated American capitalism gone naked and wild.

And you talk about less government to watch over these critters? To make sure there is fair distribution of the benefits of our country?

You talk about debt - trillions of debt created by the mortgage banking speculators on the backs of the poor after Bush relieved tax burden on the rich.

This year, more banks will be sued for their predator policies.

I have known the racist housing patterns they have created and have kept installed for profit.

And you will say we don't need government? One bank took the bonds of a whole Alabama city and speculated them in the housing market scams. Can you believe that? The city suing the bank now?

Give me a break. There ain't do debt. Forget that phony debt holding up ill-gotten profit. You can't keep squeezing money from collapsed people's hopes.

We don't need a wise, strong government? Finally lead by an intellectual of compassion and due strength?

1/5/2013 10:45:14 AM Welfare Recipients  

58dpilot
Springdale, AR
62, joined May. 2012


You were doing pretty well and had me hooked until you got to this point:

Quote: "So when you criticize welfare, when you criticize too much government, you forget that some of us need that government to keep the playing field level and American."

Life, liberty, productivity, and equal rights do not require a "level playing field". Artificially creating one restricts and retards growth and development for everyone.

Quote: "The speculative move for profit on the mortgage monies of the poor is what had ignited the economic fall. And the government is quietly getting back at the banks by suing them for billions with "no-fault" clauses to avoid the embarrassment of the stench of an unregulated American capitalism gone naked and wild."

Capitalism is what built the country pure and simple. Without it there wouldn't be an America.

Quote: "And you talk about less government to watch over these critters? To make sure there is fair distribution of the benefits of our country?"

Fair distribution? Redistribution of wealth is simply stealing by using the government like a gun. Socialism doesn't work. Winston Churchill described it as a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, it's inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.

Quote: "You talk about debt - trillions of debt created by the mortgage banking speculators on the backs of the poor after Bush relieved tax burden on the rich."

and: "Give me a break. There ain't do debt. Forget that phony debt holding up ill-gotten profit. You can't keep squeezing money from collapsed people's hopes."

Here's a little enlightenment for you. The mortgage banking "crisis" was just the tip of the iceberg. It wasn't' caused by greedy banks, it was created by forced lending to low income people that never wouild have qualified in the first place. Thanks goes to Barney Frank for that. It was government meddling that set the stage for it.

What hurts people most is the secret tax the government levies on everyone when they simply print money to pay for things. Currently they are printing 44 cents of every dollar they spend. They collect 56 cents in revenue but spend a dollar. That devalues currency and ultimately causes inflation. Government intervention and regulation also affects prices. When more government creates more cost to business, business passes those costs to consumers by raising prices, repackaging products, and a variety of other means.

At the current rate of inflation the cost of things you need every day is increasing at 25-30% a year in spite of the government's use of the consumer price index to measure inflation. Compare what you paid for a pound of hamburger a year ago to what you must pay today. It is up from about $2.48 a pound to $3.78. Bread is up from a buck and a quarter to well over a two dollars. Milk went from $2.28 to $3.68. TV's, computers, and most other electronics have gone down in price. Averaged it appears inflation is pretty flat, but you don't buy TV's, cars, washers and dryers, refrigerators, and computers every day. You do buy food every day.

This secret tax caused by government spending beyond the revenues it collects hurts people. Does a rich guy care? Will doubling food prices hurt him? Not a bit. He can afford it easily. It does hurt the poorest among us the most.

Collecting more and asking people that have more than someone else to contribute more isn't the answer to anything. Increasing taxes and government revenue is not the solution when the problem is spending.

The current administration doesn't have single leader in it that ever signed the front of a paycheck. How is having an "intellectual" in office is supposed to help? Thomas Sowell said it best, "The more I study the history of intellectuals, the more they seem like a wrecking crew, dismantling civilization bit by bit - replacing what works with what sounds good."

We are seeing that now. It all sounds good but it isn't going to work, it is completely unsustainable, and is and will continue to do more harm than good. Don't believe it? Well, time will tell. We'll be lucky to get through 2013 unless we can rid ourselves of intellectual drivel and start doing what works.

1/5/2013 2:23:16 PM Welfare Recipients  

molark
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (16,971)
Chicago, IL
95, joined Oct. 2012


Quote from 58dpilot:


Here's a little enlightenment for you. The mortgage banking "crisis" was just the tip of the iceberg. It wasn't' caused by greedy banks, it was created by forced lending to low income people that never wouild have qualified in the first place. Thanks goes to Barney Frank for that. It was government meddling that set the stage for it.


Many points to comment on, but let me get this one first.

As so enlightened I am happy there is a government that will see to it that poor people get the opportunity to have affordable housing and that there be none of the racism I mapped for you or the predatory practices or mortgage brokers or bankers.

The place where this happens is America.

I think that's clear. Period.

1/5/2013 6:03:58 PM Welfare Recipients  

58dpilot
Springdale, AR
62, joined May. 2012


Quote from molark:
Many points to comment on, but let me get this one first.

As so enlightened I am happy there is a government that will see to it that poor people get the opportunity to have affordable housing and that there be none of the racism I mapped for you or the predatory practices or mortgage brokers or bankers.

The place where this happens is America.

I think that's clear. Period.


When did government providing people with "affordable" or any housing become the role of government? When did getting anything for free become a human right? When did "charity" become law? Racism is not a government issue either, it is a social issue.

What you are talking about is socialism. Our current president is a socialist democrat. A man with grand ideas but no practical experience with anything important. That is the worst kind of leader to have especially when the country is in crisis.

The credit cards are maxed out, there is more debt than can ever be paid and this bozo the clown wants to dig in deeper. You can raise all the fuzzy, feel good, socialist/communist ideas you want and it doesn't change the facts. The nation is in decline and with continued government meddling it will fail.

No poor person ever gave anyone a job or created any of the wealth that this government is so adept at redistributing. They are an expense that is at the point where it has finally killed the goose that lays the golden eggs. Without a goose there are no more eggs so what they gonna do then?

It's simple. They will starve. But the goose has some eggs hidden. When people that can't or won't take care of themselves pass on some of those will hatch again and we can start this grand old experiment over.



[Edited 1/5/2013 6:05:04 PM ]

1/5/2013 6:43:43 PM Welfare Recipients  
jokethem
Over 4,000 Posts! (6,151)
Kansas City, KS
63, joined Feb. 2012


Quote from molark:
Many points to comment on, but let me get this one first.

As so enlightened I am happy there is a government that will see to it that poor people get the opportunity to have affordable housing and that there be none of the racism I mapped for you or the predatory practices or mortgage brokers or bankers.

The place where this happens is America.

I think that's clear. Period.



Sir, normally I would agree that it is a ggod thing that poor people are helped and even by the government. But, it is not the poor in alot of cases that are being helped. It is the scammers, the users, the takers. I know this for a fact because I have two daughters who are "free, white and 21", to use a phrase, that have lived for many years this very way, on the back of the government. They are both very abled boddied, no children, smart. A great many of their friends are living much the same.

You are old enough to remember that welfare was a block of cheese, a tin of Civil Defense crackers and a tube of balonia. Then evolved that you had to work for the local government or on some public project to get a welfare check, then you had to be going to school or looking for work to recieve. What do you have today? Sign your name on the dotted line and step up to the payment window. Are times better now? Do people now have more respect for themselves and others? Do welfare parents today raise their babies to NOT live the same way?

1/12/2013 5:17:24 AM Welfare Recipients  

cdukshnow
Over 4,000 Posts! (5,405)
La Mesa, CA
49, joined Mar. 2010


So you are saying that all these rich people are on welfare?

Have you any unbiased stats to back that? I'd love to see links.

Thom