The "Fiscal Cliff"?

12/4/2012 3:35:32 PM	The "Fiscal Cliff"?
nfries88 Newark, NY 29, joined Nov. 2011	(this post has been flagged as inappropriate, sorry.) Meet singles at DateHookup.dating, we're 100% free! Join now!
12/4/2012 5:08:41 PM	The "Fiscal Cliff"?
58dpilot Springdale, AR 62, joined May. 2012	They are raising taxes a lot and not cutting spending, they are increasing spending resulting in an additional trillion in debt for every one of the last 4 years. It is a recipe for disaster. Because they won't balance spending and revenues they are secretly "taxing" everyone. They are printing money like madmen turning out millions of hundred dollar bills as they continue to print 44 cents of every dollar they spend. That results in the secret tax called "inlfation". It is the kind of "tax" for which there are no deductions or relief and it hurts the poor more than anyone. Spending no matter what you call it, be it "stimulus", "compassion", "investment in future technologies", or any other form of camoflage is still spending. Continuing to spend more than you have increases debt to unsustainable levels that cannot be serviced, not ever. No matter what you call it doesn't change the simple fact that when you reach the level where it is not serviceable you go bankrupt. And yes, in spite of a nation's ability to manufacture money out of thin air by simply printing it does not insulate a country from insolvency. At 16 trillion and growing we are probably already insolvent because no one ever had or now has the political guts or will to do what is needed. The 2008 recession is nothing compared to what is coming. It is possible, in fact likely, that it can be much worse than the last time. The scariest part is these people are actually serious. It is mind numbing. Appalling, but not unprecidented. Seems we have to go through it about every 70-80 years. Politicians never learn and the sad part is that real people are the ones that actually pay the price. [Edited 12/4/2012 5:09:42 PM ]
12/4/2012 8:02:24 PM	The "Fiscal Cliff"?
rhw044 Springfield, ME 58, joined Jun. 2012	^^^ Plus; for thecfirstvtime in 30 years we aren't the only fish in a pond of minnows... mainly because WE set up China and others with the factories and means to become our competition. Properly done that could be a good thing. PInstead we gave them the keys to the gold mine, and kept thinking that we'd always be top dog. Now we're starting to see the results.
12/4/2012 8:33:14 PM	The "Fiscal Cliff"?
nfries88 Newark, NY 29, joined Nov. 2011	I am aware of the inflation tax and the foolish attempt at infinitely solvent government through the Federal Reserve's purchase of government bonds with freshly created currency. That is the real fiscal cliff, of course: when we no longer accept this currency as having value en masse. Unfortunately, your post had nothing to do with the content of my original post. I'm beginning to doubt that you actually read the content of my posts, and just assume my ignorance. [Edited 12/4/2012 8:34:37 PM ]
12/5/2012 6:50:07 AM	The "Fiscal Cliff"?
fancyfarm Parsons, TN 59, joined Oct. 2012	You know, this fiscal fiasco has been building for years, its just that O'drama is using it as an excuse to bail out some more buddies . Ad well as destroying life as we know it.
12/5/2012 9:11:09 AM	The "Fiscal Cliff"?
jrbogie1949 Ventura, CA 68, joined Mar. 2009	y2k was building for years and pfffft.
12/5/2012 10:44:40 AM	The "Fiscal Cliff"?
nfries88 Newark, NY 29, joined Nov. 2011	Y2K was stupid to begin with, and was made up by people with no knowledge of computer software. 2038 is when what was suggested with Y2K -- the clock reset due to integer overflow -- would have really happened. But most operating systems have already fixed this by changing the size of the integer that holds date-time information. We now have about a billion years (literally) before this will be a concern again. And if we're even still here, I'm sure we will be using a much larger integer for just about everything by then. [Edited 12/5/2012 10:45:24 AM ]
12/5/2012 11:16:58 AM	The "Fiscal Cliff"?
suds59 Crown Point, IN 68, joined Jan. 2009	as far as i can tell ,going over the cliff will raise the unemployment rate and lower our already questionable credit rating.will this destroy our economy?
12/5/2012 11:38:51 AM	The "Fiscal Cliff"?
nfries88 Newark, NY 29, joined Nov. 2011	Our credit rate is going down regardless. I don't think it will have any appreciable effect on the unemployment rate. The tax hike is not that big, and the spending cuts are not that deep. The real reason it's regarded as a big deal is because it pisses off everyone -- the big spenders and the low taxers. The thing that irritates me is that the proposed solution to the "problem" is the problem itself.
12/5/2012 4:38:20 PM	The "Fiscal Cliff"?
58dpilot Springdale, AR 62, joined May. 2012	Obamacare will take care of increasing the unemployment rate as well as adding to the federal deficit and probably bankrupting the states through increased Medicaid costs. It appears the only workers that won't be harmed are illegals so at least 12 or so million workers might be fairly safe.
12/6/2012 5:22:57 AM	The "Fiscal Cliff"?
fancyfarm Parsons, TN 59, joined Oct. 2012	(this post has been flagged as inappropriate, sorry.)
12/6/2012 10:54:42 AM	The "Fiscal Cliff"?
58dpilot Springdale, AR 62, joined May. 2012	Going over the "Cliff" might not be so bad according to the Congressional Budget Office, but not for the reasons most think. I quote: "CBO projects that the significant tax increases and spending cuts that are due to occur in January will probably cause the economy to fall back into a recession next year, but they will make the economy stronger later in the decade and beyond. In contrast, continuing current policies would lead to faster economic growth in the near term but a weaker economy in later years. Potential policy changes would have different effects on federal borrowing, people’s incentives to work and save, and government investment, all of which would affect the nation’s output and income during the next few years and over the longer term." They also state: "Prolonged increases in debt relative to GDP can cause significant long-term damage to both the government’s finances and the broader economy. Such increases in federal debt would have the following consequences: Higher federal spending on interest payments; A reduction in national saving; Limits on policymakers’ ability to use tax and spending policies to respond to unexpected challenges, such as economic downturns, natural disasters, or financial crises; and An increase in the likelihood of a fiscal crisis, in which investors would lose confidence in the government’s ability to manage its budget, and the government would thus lose the ability to borrow at affordable interest rates." Read the full report yourself at: http://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/cbofiles/attachments/43692-DeficitReduction_print.pdf Their most important conclusion is that if we stay on the path we are on there is no doubt about the fact that the government we will become insolvent and a financial crisis (major depression) will occur within 10 years. On the other hand various economists predict that it won't take 10 years. Milton Friedman recently stated that wealthy people are much better at protecting their income than the government is at taking it so they won't be rescuing the government from it's obligations. Many economists predict we have 3-5 years at best while some believe we won't make it thorough 2013. Time will tell who is right.
12/7/2012 7:41:37 AM	The "Fiscal Cliff"?
fancyfarm Parsons, TN 59, joined Oct. 2012	Quote from jrbogie1949: y2k was building for years and pfffft. While your up there in the most liberal bankrupted state dodging your future blackouts I'll be fishing the great Tennessee river by day, enjoying my lights in the night powered from solar power , washing with rain water. Good luc
12/7/2012 8:31:25 AM	The "Fiscal Cliff"?
jrbogie1949 Ventura, CA 68, joined Mar. 2009	Quote from fancyfarm: While your up there in the most liberal bankrupted state dodging your future blackouts I'll be fishing the great Tennessee river by day, enjoying my lights in the night powered from solar power , washing with rain water. Good luc hey that's great but i'm planning a surfing trip down baja way. never could fish worth a shit.
12/7/2012 8:35:15 PM	The "Fiscal Cliff"?
58dpilot Springdale, AR 62, joined May. 2012	And you sill starve when the hotel can't find food to buy. Good luck. Your state is already bankrupt and the rest of us hope you find nirivana in Baha. Calipornia won't be able to sustain you much longer. They are already insolvent.
12/8/2012 6:41:15 AM	The "Fiscal Cliff"?
jrbogie1949 Ventura, CA 68, joined Mar. 2009	nixon tried to freeze spending and prices to curb inflation back in the early seventies. how did that work out?
12/9/2012 8:53:41 AM	The "Fiscal Cliff"?
58dpilot Springdale, AR 62, joined May. 2012	There is only one thing that can be frozen or trimmed to improve the economy. That is the size, influence, scope, and benevolence of government. Currently more than 1 in 5 people employed in the USA is a government worker. That is way too many. When the number of people that are dependent on government assistance are added to the number of "over paid and over compensated" civilian government workers we arrive at a point where there are only two people working to support one. That is clearly unsustainable and tweaking it and applying "bandaid" solutions is no help. Add unfunded pension obligations of all of these public sector employees and the economy is past any reasonable hope of sustainability. These are a simply unavoidable facts. Without fundamental and radial changes in these dynamics, going bankrupt and into a very painful depression will reset the system. After 20 or so years of rebuilding and reconciliation we can start the whole cycle again. What fun!
12/10/2012 6:47:55 AM	The "Fiscal Cliff"?
fancyfarm Parsons, TN 59, joined Oct. 2012	You must ne a nut case, I am not to blame for the waste that the government consistently lies about. We vote someone in a seat to represent us then they go to d c to eat up 18 dollar muffins . How the he'll is that our fault. Iv been screeming about this craps for years. From the janitor to the president, once on the payroll they know they are protected so there is no incentive not to take advantage of free money. They sweep their lies under the carpet and just go on like nothing is wrong. It boils my blood. I'm considering just selling my equipment and going home to live off the land, just to stop paying tens of thousands of tax I pay.
12/10/2012 11:35:00 AM	The "Fiscal Cliff"?
58dpilot Springdale, AR 62, joined May. 2012	(this post has been flagged as inappropriate, sorry.)
12/10/2012 8:52:54 PM	The "Fiscal Cliff"?
58dpilot Springdale, AR 62, joined May. 2012	People are not psychologically prepared to deal with the imminent problems we are facing. The current system is so fragile that if any or two of the following becomes an acute problem the lights will go out. World debt is unsustainable, soures of plentiful clean water are disappearing, overpopulation and energy demands are more difficult to meet every day, "Climate Change" is real regardless of whether it is because of environmental advocates ideas about pollution or a natural cycle, terrorists are pursuing and will use nuclear devices (Iran), and governments are failing on every level. Any of these or any combination of them can put the lights out quickly and for a long time. The only good part of all this is that we are probably not talking about the end of the human race but we are facing the end of an age. The age where we squander resources and live beyond our means is coming to a close. Soon we will follow Rome. Overpopulation is putting severe worldwide strain on water and food. Our wasteful use of resources is not sustainable in the absence of alternative sources of energy. Centralization of food production that requires it travel thousand of miles from where it's made to your table will create shortages when the trucks stop. Government power is becoming more centralization as national governments grab more and more and that degrades it's ability to respond properly and in a timely way to crisis. One stinking terroist nuke set off in the US or mideast can bring it all to a quick head. There will be a lot of deaths when this system comes crashing down but the human race won't be going extinct. There is hope in decentralization and localization of resources. People are going to have to produce food locally, organize their communities for mutual support and defense, and care for one another. Big cities will go first followed by blue states because they are most dependent on the this precarious mess of a system. They'll be followed by larger cities in blue states. Larger communities will see cullings because they can't sustain themselves. We are already seeing this with municipal bankruptcies. The most successful communities will be those with populations of hundreds up to perhaps a couple or maybe even a few thousand if they are communities that can sustain themselves locally. If you live anywhere but in a reasonably self-sufficient community capable of feeding it's own people with local resources you should think about moving to one. Industrious people always welcome other productive people. The normal human tendency to ignore what isn't comfortable will doom many. By the time they see reality it will be much too late for them. The kinds of collapse we face will happen overnight or at best over a few days. When the crap hits the fan it will be too late if you are not well ahead of the game. Even if you are trapped take heart. The survivors won't live worse; but they will live differently, perhaps even better in many ways than before. I'm not going to edit so I apologize for any misspellings or typos.
12/14/2012 11:39:10 AM	The "Fiscal Cliff"?
jokethem Kansas City, KS 63, joined Feb. 2012	so is there some great reason we should not go over the cliff? Come on, we are all adults here and who have lived through many years and many administration of these DC clowns. We will not go over the cliff. A deal will be struck at the eleventh hour of the eleventh day. The bluff BS here is just for those ignotant people who don't have a clue how politics work.
12/14/2012 1:21:43 PM	The "Fiscal Cliff"?
58dpilot Springdale, AR 62, joined May. 2012	Quote from jokethem: so is there some great reason we should not go over the cliff? Come on, we are all adults here and who have lived through many years and many administration of these DC clowns. We will not go over the cliff. A deal will be struck at the eleventh hour of the eleventh day. The bluff BS here is just for those ignotant people who don't have a clue how politics work. I give it 50/50. After talking to my financial advisor and additional careful consideration going over this "cliff" is not such a bad thing. It will cause taxes will go up for everyone and Medicaid and other "welfare" minded programs will lose funding. When you really think about it, it acutally accomplishes two things that must happen if any kind of real economic recovery is to begin. The government nees more revenue and it also needs to reduce spending. Going over the "cliff" accomplishes both.
12/15/2012 8:35:52 PM	The "Fiscal Cliff"?
rhw044 Springfield, ME 58, joined Jun. 2012	At some point things have got to start going the other way and we'll be forced to change our spending habits ... The longer we wait the more painful it's going to be. I take real exception though to comments from here and other places about SS being an "entitlement"; it was originally established as a funded mandate as a supplementary income for people who got too old to work regularly. Besides, I and most others have been paying for it all our lives, and if the money hadn't been "lent" for other purposes it would still be there. Having said that I would gladly increase my eligibility age or perhaps forgo collecting at all... if doing so would truly bring us back on an even keel. Instead though the powers that be would simply say " Here's more money that we can fritter away", on whatever special interest group supported their campaign.
12/16/2012 11:57:52 AM	The "Fiscal Cliff"?
jazminx2 Ossining, NY 40, joined Jan. 2010	SS for people below age is an entitlement, not to mention states like maine where welfare and EBT are pandemic- THATS an entitlement.
12/16/2012 3:01:14 PM	The "Fiscal Cliff"?
rhw044 Springfield, ME 58, joined Jun. 2012	Boy my state is really getting slammed this week in the forums... maybe I should move to New York. (There was a time when I was ready to move to Tupper Lake... beautiful country out there.) [Edited 12/16/2012 3:01:58 PM ]
12/16/2012 3:07:31 PM	The "Fiscal Cliff"?
rhw044 Springfield, ME 58, joined Jun. 2012	I guess having lived here all my life I didn't realise it was any different anywhere else. Yet word seems to be getting out... some minister from down south (Tennessee)just loaded a group of refugees into his van, brought them up here and dumped them; my parent's church is now doing their best to get them settled in.
12/21/2012 12:05:10 PM	The "Fiscal Cliff"?
58dpilot Springdale, AR 62, joined May. 2012	Allons! That is the motto of the 11 ACR, "Let's go!". Let's go over the "cliff". Because the world didn't end at 5 am today we have to do it sometime, why not now? What democrats are willing to accept at this point doesn't address the real problem. The problem isn't revenue where money is taken out of the private sector and given to government. Each day the government collects 5 billion dollars and spends 11 billion dollars. As long as that is the case there is not enough money to feed them if they take it all. The problem is spending. Until the government learns to live withing "it's means" in a reasonable way there is no solution. Coninuing to kick the can down the road is not a solution and never was. It is what got us in the mess we are in now. Going over the "Cliff" will force Congress to do something more fair and responsible. It is also important to remember that they have all of 2013 to actually set the tax code for the year. Letting January 1st pass without a deal isn't anything they can't fix by the time you actually have to pay up by April 15, 2014. Until then it is just political theater. The game isn't over until the clock runs out.
12/21/2012 12:59:36 PM	The "Fiscal Cliff"?
jrbogie1949 Ventura, CA 68, joined Mar. 2009	i'm giving this y2k, fiscal cliff, and all the other end of the world, sky is falling crap one more chance. if the mayan predictions come true and the world does end today i'll worry about this fiscal cliff bullshit. wait........that didn't come out quite right.......uh, maybe i........ah hell............
12/21/2012 5:53:09 PM	The "Fiscal Cliff"?
58dpilot Springdale, AR 62, joined May. 2012	The Mayan's just got the date a little wrong. It was actually November 6th when Obama was re-elected!
12/24/2012 3:12:23 PM	The "Fiscal Cliff"?
cupocheer Assumption, IL 68, joined May. 2010
12/25/2012 8:45:30 PM	The "Fiscal Cliff"?
suds59 Crown Point, IN 68, joined Jan. 2009	these people would not be include in"Profiles in Courage"
12/30/2012 11:42:00 AM	The "Fiscal Cliff"?
58dpilot Springdale, AR 62, joined May. 2012	My bet is that they will come up with some interim deal that simply kicks the can further down the road. I believe that because any REAL solution will be very, very painful for a lot of people in a very real way and politicians will avoid that at all costs. It kind of doesn't matter because at some point in the near future insovency will catch up with us in a disaterous way. Either way they go about it there will be great pain. One way to look at the situation brings an old saying to mind, "Do you cut off the dogs tail an inch at a time or wait and do it all at once?". I'm guessing they'll forge on ineffectually until it doesn't matter.
12/31/2012 11:12:40 PM	The "Fiscal Cliff"?
cupocheer Assumption, IL 68, joined May. 2010
1/2/2013 2:07:38 PM	The "Fiscal Cliff"?
58dpilot Springdale, AR 62, joined May. 2012	I am vindicated. Now we'll see what comes. I suspect they will continue to apply bandaids to a sucking chest wound and as a result the patient will die.
1/3/2013 12:30:13 AM	The "Fiscal Cliff"?
58dpilot Springdale, AR 62, joined May. 2012	There is no painless way to retire the national debt. None. Time is not on anybody's side either. We go through this every 70-80 years and get crushed every time. So what's new? We're gonna get crushed no matter what so the best solution is to be ready for that. It just isn't gonna happen without a lot of pain and those that feel it the most will be those that have the least, just like every other time we went through this crap. It's almost as regular as a clockwork.
1/4/2013 9:59:20 PM	The "Fiscal Cliff"?
cupocheer Assumption, IL 68, joined May. 2010	A "fiscal cliff" has all come about because only government officials faulted with mismanagement? Is that correct? Whom is it that elected those government officials? hmmmmmmmmmmmm .........
1/5/2013 7:28:34 AM	The "Fiscal Cliff"?
molark Chicago, IL 96, joined Oct. 2012	Imagine the point of coming to the limit of the debt and China demands full payment. Is this possible? No. Not in our time or 100 years, I doubt it. Our economy will remain essential to the world economy, do matter the debt. There is no debt problem. As long as corporations like Apple, Microsoft, Oracle, GM, JPMorgan, you know the top ten, are able to hide billions of tax dollars overseas... As long as we have the growning gap of economic inequality allowing the rich to keep billions in taxes, then Cities like Stockton, San Bernardino, CA; Harrisburg and Scranton, Pa; will not be able to hire police, will have to fire teachers while big neighboring corporation and rich people continue to evade taxes. We will let these cities go bankrupt and reduce their services. The solution is a simple accounting one. It is something Germany did after World War I. It's something our major banks are doing now. These banks are holding the underwater accounts of 2 million depressed homeowners, for what? The banks created the debt, then they should release the debt and we start over. Watch and see if the balance sheets don't get wiped out to zilch in favor of the rich with the poor hanging on their homes and their dear lives with inflated credit scores and interest points for more people to pocket profit. This is about to happen now. This is why it will take a major crack on this system to redistribute that income no matter what short term losses or tax increases there will be. It will all balance out. This is what the health care plan does. It is one of a seismic resettling operation. This will be seem as the insurance companies are finally forced to show their policies in a competitive scheme. Market adjustments will then have to be made for translucence and better competition - the kind people pine on.
1/5/2013 10:56:05 AM	The "Fiscal Cliff"?
58dpilot Springdale, AR 62, joined May. 2012	I predict "Obamacare" will collapse on itself. With an already weak economy, rediculous deficits, unprecidented national debt, a shrinking job market that "affordable health care" will cause to expand it will bring about an inevitable economic collapse. It is the final nail in the coffin. One thing this guy is right about is that we will see a complete readjustment (massive recession or full fledged depression) soon. Perhaps he's clairvoyant?
1/5/2013 2:18:22 PM	The "Fiscal Cliff"?
molark Chicago, IL 96, joined Oct. 2012	Perhaps this guy is finally glad that changes are occurring and readjustments are being made.
1/5/2013 2:29:07 PM	The "Fiscal Cliff"?
piscesheart Ocean City, MD 54, joined Dec. 2011	Quote from rhw044: ^^^ Plus; for thecfirstvtime in 30 years we aren't the only fish in a pond of minnows... mainly because WE set up China and others with the factories and means to become our competition. Properly done that could be a good thing. PInstead we gave them the keys to the gold mine, and kept thinking that we'd always be top dog. Now we're starting to see the results. Here's a great article on how china manipulates it's currency. http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2012/10/china_currency_manipulation_how_does_it_harm_the_u_s_and_what_can_we_do.html China Cheats china smokes more cigarettes then the USA. and they smoke 'our' cigarettes. next time they play with their currency we play with exports. as for the fiscal cliff, i think we are headed towards economic collapse if not sooner then later.
1/5/2013 5:51:24 PM	The "Fiscal Cliff"?
58dpilot Springdale, AR 62, joined May. 2012	I agree 100%. Without great "pain", especially for people that receive free stuff from the government there is no doubt about an economic collaapse. It is only a matter of when. I'm afraid that time is soon. Certainly less than 3 years.
1/5/2013 7:04:25 PM	The "Fiscal Cliff"?
cupocheer Assumption, IL 68, joined May. 2010
1/5/2013 11:11:54 PM	The "Fiscal Cliff"?
molark Chicago, IL 96, joined Oct. 2012	No one receives free stuck but the corporate predators. There will be no doomsday unless you read comic books. There is no fiscal cliff.
1/6/2013 10:14:50 AM	The "Fiscal Cliff"?
58dpilot Springdale, AR 62, joined May. 2012	If you really believe that I fear you are uninformed, possibly delusional. History repeats itself with respect to financial booms and busts about evary 80 years. It's a simple fact. Anyone that "thinks" there is no "cliff" or believes that current policies are sustainable is sadly misinformed or doesn't understand the reality of economics. All of this has been discussed before and I'm not going to rehash it, anyone interested can look at earlier posts and see the details. What people "think" about economic conditions is not important. "Thinking" rather than "knowing" and "understanding" is always dangerous. The truth always comes out eventually. All you have to do is wait and see. There is no need to get impatient about it either. The year 2013 will be revealing. The five factors important in any economy will balance. When they do look out!
1/9/2013 11:19:22 AM	The "Fiscal Cliff"?
58dpilot Springdale, AR 62, joined May. 2012	You missed some important points. As an economy we have never run deficits anything like those we have today. The recessions you mention are one of the results of that kind of mismanagement. Government borrowing results in inflation regardless of the government's policies and measurements that misrepresent it like the consumer price index. During WWII government spending exceeded GDP. Converting from wartime to a peacetime economy generated sufficient revenue growth to service that debt. However, since the early 60's government spending has continued to increase each year until we find ourselves at the point that it again exceeds GDP. Because this is not due to a single emergency event and it has become a matter of policy that has no end there is no way to gererate sufficient revenue to repay it. Without drastic cuts in government spending no correction is possible. When the ability to effectively service debt is lost insolvency results. Today, for every $100 the government spends it prints $44 out of thin air. That is a reason for having a debt ceiling. It is to control runaway inflation. Merely printing additional currency causes inflation. Inflation degrades the value of monitary investments and devalues savings and investments. That causes those investments to become worthless. The resulting level of inflation can easily lead to insovency and a complete collapse of the monetary system and economy. I would not put too much faith in our leaders to avoid such a thing. After all they are politicians. They are not businessmen nor are they clairvoyant. The behavior of many of them indicates they are not only irresponsible, but stupid. They have wrecked the country before and seem committed to doing it again. To illustrate this I used to buy savings bonds monthly. When I started in the late 80's and early 90's they matured (doubled in value) in an average of about 7 years. I bught a $100 bond for $50 each month with a deduction from my Army pay. I checked online with the US Treasurey the other day and some of the bonds I bought in 1991, 22 years ago, have not matured. The net result is that investing in government paper resulted in a significant loss. I should have been buying gold and silver Eagles.
1/9/2013 11:09:25 PM	The "Fiscal Cliff"?
58dpilot Springdale, AR 62, joined May. 2012	The point remains. It is already too late. Making it worse doesn't really matter much except in the short term. You can rest assured that our "leaders" know it. They are just too cowardly to give in. It's like a card game where the other guy has a royal flush in spades. They know it but will continue to raise just to keep the game going regardless of the ultimate consequences. They are like the Hollywood actors they are so cozy with. They just keep pretending that things are different than they really are.

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