For Christians or Non: A Bite of The Apple

8/18/2013 3:16:07 AM	For Christians or Non: A Bite of The Apple
barnswallow2 Bryson City, NC 64, joined Aug. 2013	Let's assume for a moment that a child could live comfortably in the womb indefinitely, without being born. What would be the ramifications of a child never being born??? ... ... ... Having given that some thought, NOW consider the following question: What if Adam and Eve had never left the Garden of Eden??? Within the realm of Judeo-Christianity, this Old Testament story of creation has always been interpretted and taught by church leaders as the story of original SIN. BUT, perhaps it should be re-interpretted and presented as The Story of Original BIRTH! Now, back to the original questions: What if... Meet singles at DateHookup.dating, we're 100% free! Join now!
8/18/2013 7:41:27 AM	For Christians or Non: A Bite of The Apple
cupocheer Assumption, IL 68, joined May. 2010	Quote from barnswallow2: Let's assume for a moment that a child could live comfortably in the womb indefinitely, without being born. What would be the ramifications of a child never being born??? ... ... ... Having given that some thought, NOW consider the following question: What if Adam and Eve had never left the Garden of Eden??? Within the realm of Judeo-Christianity, this Old Testament story of creation has always been interpretted and taught by church leaders as the story of original SIN. BUT, perhaps it should be re-interpretted and presented as The Story of Original BIRTH! Now, back to the original questions: What if... ~~OP~~ Begging your patience, please --- Did you actually say ASSUME? Why, yes, you did. Therefore, there is no answer to your assumed question, is there? Ramifications wouldn't exist if the child were never born because you have already ASSUMED that the child could survive in the womb, indefinitely. Moot questions. Now let's look at SIN ------- Being born does not carry the stigmata of sin into this world ... all are born INTO sin. Let's not blame or blemish the children for being born.
8/18/2013 10:02:10 AM	For Christians or Non: A Bite of The Apple
barnswallow2 Bryson City, NC 64, joined Aug. 2013	Sorry, cupocheer, but you've missed the whole point...much less the second one. Try again. ...or perhaps I should say think again. It also appears that you have blocked me from your site, as you have been the only response thus far. Anyone can sling mud and then run away. And in your self-righteous arrogance, you've immediately identified yourself as another one of the millions of Americans who are nothing more than Modern Day Pharisees. Glad you're here, cupocheer. Hope you come back soon. But come in with an open heart, And show not your own moon. Now, back to the original 2 questions... (and Yo to Rigpa and your wonderful curiosity! Respectfully, Amanneh
8/18/2013 11:31:01 AM	For Christians or Non: A Bite of The Apple
usillygoose Cicero, IL 42, joined Nov. 2012	Quote from barnswallow2: Let's assume for a moment that a child could live comfortably in the womb indefinitely, without being born. What would be the ramifications of a child never being born??? ... ... ... Interesting indeed. I guess the ramifications would be that the child would become a parasite and feed off the host until it dies, ending all life as we know it. I'm sure the child (parasite) would be comfortable, but I am not so sure about the host. Now, If Adam and Eve never left Eden, then sin (as taught in scripture)would not have existed. The apple was never in scripture. It was only described as a tree that bears fruit. Regardless, if they followed Gods one and only rule, they wouldn't have been thrown out of Eden. Although it's likely that their children (or their childrens, children) would have ate from the tree eventually and they would have passed "sin" down threw their generations.
8/18/2013 11:34:46 AM	For Christians or Non: A Bite of The Apple
usillygoose Cicero, IL 42, joined Nov. 2012	LOL... Cup don't get offended that easily. She has her profile set to invisible. Only friends can access it. Maybe when she goes visible again, you can ask her to be your friend.
8/18/2013 6:34:44 PM	For Christians or Non: A Bite of The Apple
cupocheer Assumption, IL 68, joined May. 2010	Quote from barnswallow2: Sorry, cupocheer, but you've missed the whole point...much less the second one. Try again. ...or perhaps I should say think again. It also appears that you have blocked me from your site, as you have been the only response thus far. Anyone can sling mud and then run away. And in your self-righteous arrogance, you've immediately identified yourself as another one of the millions of Americans who are nothing more than Modern Day Pharisees. Glad you're here, cupocheer. Hope you come back soon. But come in with an open heart, And show not your own moon. Now, back to the original 2 questions... (and Yo to Rigpa and your wonderful curiosity! Respectfully, Amanneh ...and so you continue on to spread lies, sir? I have never blocked you, barnswallow. Nor do you have me blocked (for the moment). I don't sling mud, either -- but you sure do (reference attached quote). I label you a LIAR, sir -- by quoting your own fictitious words. Don't blemish the children for being born INTO sin. Questions are moot, especially when uttered by a liar. 'nuff said
8/18/2013 6:35:03 PM	For Christians or Non: A Bite of The Apple
cupocheer Assumption, IL 68, joined May. 2010
8/18/2013 7:32:43 PM	For Christians or Non: A Bite of The Apple
barnswallow2 Bryson City, NC 64, joined Aug. 2013	Welcome in, M'Ladycup! Seriously. Glad we're talkin'. I have presented 2 questions. One cannot lie when questioning What if...?, as it is not a statement or assertion. So I cannot be a LIAR. A liar is manipulative, not to be trusted. I can assure you I am not nor wish to be as the mudded words you sling at me, dear one. But I would much rather you be slinging mud than non-existent. Glad you're hangin' around. But there is clearly something about which you think I'm lying. So I will continue to listen to and honor your questions or assertions. A good being would never do less. And BTW, what was the name of the tree, M'lady? The one that bore fruit in the Garden. It had a name. What was the name of the tree of Edenfruit? I will share more of my apple/fruit with you then, meaning my own thoughts about my own questions. I am a seeker of Truth, M'Ladycup, as I think you are in your own realm. We share the life called Nature, and we both honor and learn from it as it feeds us. Namaste,M'Lady. Respectfully, Amanneh
8/18/2013 8:20:07 PM	For Christians or Non: A Bite of The Apple
barnswallow2 Bryson City, NC 64, joined Aug. 2013	I forgot to add, in response to your other assertions, Lady cupocheer, that I don't believe in nor accept the concept of Sin. What good Father would condemn his young child for being curious in the absence of experience? A good father loves and is patient, not condemning, angry, or tossing his children into the street and abandoning them. The Dept. of Social Services and Child Protective Services would have his butt in court overnight! And as for children, I love children, both the big ones and the little ones. I have no children of my own, so I enjoy the presence of little ones around me. They teach me about listening and I show them love and understanding of a good man, as if they are my children at that moment, whether from the moment of birth or a toddler, 8 y.o., or teen. I think the historical figure of Jesus of Nazareth felt this, and Siddhartha knew this joy of being with children because he had his own. I have nor feel any malice toward children, M'Lady. I was a child once myself, of course, and a molested one at that. Bottom line: no sin, no malice Now, about that fruit tree...
8/18/2013 10:39:55 PM	For Christians or Non: A Bite of The Apple
usillygoose Cicero, IL 42, joined Nov. 2012	Quote from barnswallow2: Now, about that fruit tree... What about it?
8/18/2013 11:49:49 PM	For Christians or Non: A Bite of The Apple
cupocheer Assumption, IL 68, joined May. 2010	Namaste
8/19/2013 8:50:06 AM	For Christians or Non: A Bite of The Apple
kashum Boiling Springs, PA 53, joined Sep. 2012	A cage, no mater how gilded, is still a cage.
8/19/2013 1:57:15 PM	For Christians or Non: A Bite of The Apple
barnswallow2 Bryson City, NC 64, joined Aug. 2013	BTW, sillygoose, thanks for the encouraging input on cupocheer. And hey, cupo !
8/19/2013 3:38:18 PM	For Christians or Non: A Bite of The Apple
barnswallow2 Bryson City, NC 64, joined Aug. 2013	Beautiful and poignant respone, kashim. I've been struck by the comments on this thread, thusfar, as they have offered other perspectives I hadn't considered. I also misunderstood the "block sender" thing and apparently blundered into inadvertently deleting a few of the posts. (Sorry cupo and sillygoose. My goof. ) Back to discussion. As my own thinking has led, if a child never leaves the womb, i.e. if never born, it never gets to experience life, neither being loved or loving, never able to grow physically, mentally, emotionally, psychologically, or spiritually. Its Soul is never born into this world, it never has the opportunity to develop and explore and lose the self in finding Self, and the child never has the opportunity to even be introduced to God--however defined--on this earth, nor the opportunity to grow to become more like God him/herself. If the child is never born, it cannot further God in any way. And likewise with Adam and Eve. If they had never left the Garden of Eden, they would never have experienced this Life on Earth. If they had never left Eden, if they had never been born, they would never have been able to grow and mature into the fullness of That Which Is Greater Than Ourselves, and the seeds of Truth, Love, and Peace would never have been sown. As, such, I am of the position that the Creation Story of the Christian Bible is not the story of original sin, but a story of original Birth, where curiosity about The Tree of Knowledge and Life was crucial in the choice to be born, and to becoming able to Seek Life and Knowledge. Curiosity is the only true enemy of ignorance. Adam and Eve had to leave the gilded cage of Eden to find Life, not remain in ignorance. What truly good earthly father or mother would punish or abandon a child for normal, healthy curiosity, or want his/her children to remain at home forever? Adam, Eve, Siddhartha all had to leave, be Born, in order to live and find Life. Thank you, kashim, in your wisdom.
8/19/2013 6:04:03 PM	For Christians or Non: A Bite of The Apple
mdennis Columbus, NJ 69, joined Jun. 2013	Quote from barnswallow2: Let's assume for a moment that a child could live comfortably in the womb indefinitely, without being born. What would be the ramifications of a child never being born??? ... ... ... Having given that some thought, NOW consider the following question: What if Adam and Eve had never left the Garden of Eden??? Within the realm of Judeo-Christianity, this Old Testament story of creation has always been interpretted and taught by church leaders as the story of original SIN. BUT, perhaps it should be re-interpretted and presented as The Story of Original BIRTH! Now, back to the original questions: What if... Hi barns and Any One Else, What you have done in setting up your hypothetical is to place a lifelong burden on Eve. Your hypothetical punishes her. Regards, Michael
8/19/2013 11:28:46 PM	For Christians or Non: A Bite of The Apple
redeamed1 Edmonds, WA 56, joined Jan. 2013	Quote from barnswallow2: I forgot to add, in response to your other assertions, Lady cupocheer, that I don't believe in nor accept the concept of Sin. What good Father would condemn his young child for being curious in the absence of experience? A good father loves and is patient, not condemning, angry, or tossing his children into the street and abandoning them. The Dept. of Social Services and Child Protective Services would have his butt in court overnight! And as for children, I love children, both the big ones and the little ones. I have no children of my own, so I enjoy the presence of little ones around me. They teach me about listening and I show them love and understanding of a good man, as if they are my children at that moment, whether from the moment of birth or a toddler, 8 y.o., or teen. I think the historical figure of Jesus of Nazareth felt this, and Siddhartha knew this joy of being with children because he had his own. I have nor feel any malice toward children, M'Lady. I was a child once myself, of course, and a molested one at that. Bottom line: no sin, no malice Now, about that fruit tree... Hi Barnswallow, Thanks for letting me attempt to answer your question. Now i am a christian and try to act like one sometimes. So forgive me in advance if i fall short. You ask a legitimate question. In short, what i hear is, what father would condemn a poor innocent child, with the original sin Doctrine? Hope that suffices your question? God condemns sin. Even the sin of a child who is not born, by foreknowledge. Knowing the child will come out of the womb. I know your question didnt provide it would come out of the womb, so your answer still lies in the FOREKNOWLEDGE of God. (to wit: God knows the end from the begining) Yet i find it terrible and inhuman you would keep the child in the womb, so that the child will never grow to hear the good news, and hope, that Jesus died for her/his sins.That even though God confines all under original sin, this is to find his enemies. The other side of the coin is, God so loved the world he sent his son to die in their place for sin, so that they could be pardoned. Why you would keep that poor innocent baby in the womb to never hear the whole message is beyond me and you should be ashamed, nevertheless i forgive you because you did it in ignorance. Let the child out, that it may come under and be confined to origianl sin like all mankind, so they it may also choose to accept the love of God also throught Jesus, the messiah and saviour who died in her place. God bless you Barnswallow.
8/22/2013 1:17:40 PM	For Christians or Non: A Bite of The Apple
barnswallow2 Bryson City, NC 64, joined Aug. 2013	Quote from mdennis: Hi barns and Any One Else, What you have done in setting up your hypothetical is to place a lifelong burden on Eve. Your hypothetical punishes her. Regards, Michael Michael, glad you've joined us! Fill me/us in on your comment about Eve. I'm intrigued and eager! Tim & the birds
8/22/2013 2:12:24 PM	For Christians or Non: A Bite of The Apple
mdennis Columbus, NJ 69, joined Jun. 2013	Quote from barnswallow2: Michael, glad you've joined us! Fill me/us in on your comment about Eve. I'm intrigued and eager! Tim & the birds Hi Tim, The Birds and Any One Else, I've never been pregnant but from what I've heard from those who have been it's not the most pleasant of experiences. Spiritually and emotionally it may very well be but physically....that's another matter. The normal pregnancy of nine months is bad enough....but how long did Eve supposedly live? Even if we assign a modern lifespan to Eve...that's quite a long time to be pregnant. Of course there is the other matter...since Eve was not immortal the unborn child would eventually die. Regards, Michael
8/22/2013 2:17:24 PM	For Christians or Non: A Bite of The Apple
barnswallow2 Bryson City, NC 64, joined Aug. 2013	And welcome to you, too, redeamed1 ! No you did not fall short anywhere. Your courage and curiosity prevent that. I heartily applaud your reference to God's foreknowledge and omniscience. Implicit in your assertions is the suggestion that God knew beforehand that Eve and Adam would take "a bite of the apple" from the Tree of Life and Knowledge. So God Him/Herself found it important that his children not remain in the womb of Eden. What loving father would want his children to remain in the womb? And to leave the womb one must be born. God knew Adam and Eve must be born, and not remain in darkness and ignorance. A child does not have the ability to "sin" in the womb, nor the ability to do so for some period of time after leaving it. There was no sin committed in the womb of Eden. As such, I assert that the Creation Story of Genesis is not a story of original sin, but of original birth. Not a story of the first sin, but of the first birth! In considering this, both the Old Testament and the New Testament of the Christian Bible thus open with birth, new life. That being said, redeamed1, I must inquire how you define "sin." And ITM, glad you jumped in. More that I'll respond to later. Tim and the swallows
8/22/2013 2:25:49 PM	For Christians or Non: A Bite of The Apple
barnswallow2 Bryson City, NC 64, joined Aug. 2013	And welcome to you, too, redeamed1 ! No you did not fall short anywhere. Your courage and curiosity prevent that. I heartily applaud your reference to God's foreknowledge and omniscience. Implicit in your assertions is the suggestion that God knew beforehand that Eve and Adam would take "a bite of the apple" from the Tree of Life and Knowledge. So God Him/Herself found it important that his children not remain in the womb of Eden. What loving father would want his children to remain in the womb? And to leave the womb one must be born. God knew Adam and Eve must be born, and not remain in darkness and ignorance. A child does not have the ability to "sin" in the womb, nor the ability to do so for some period of time after leaving it. There was no sin committed in the womb of Eden. As such, I assert that the Creation Story of Genesis is not a story of original sin, but of original birth. Not a story of the first sin, but of the first birth! In considering this, both the Old Testament and the New Testament of the Christian Bible thus open with birth, new life. That being said, redeamed1, I must inquire how you define "sin." And ITM, glad you jumped in. More that I'll respond to later. Tim and the swallows

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