| 10/4/2014 11:49:30 AM |
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bigd9832
Chicago, IL
64, joined Oct. 2007
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All hope abandon ye who enter here. Through me you pass into the city of woe:
Through me you pass into eternal pain: Through me among the people lost for aye.
This is the rendition of Dante's Divine Comedy translated by Rev. H. F. Cary in 1814. Of course this version is not as well known as the more famous...
Abandon hope all ye who enter here.
So are we abandoning ALL hope, or are ALL abandoning hope? Such are the questions that a translator must make decisions on.
Now if you are a Catholic translator then you must consider the many man-made Catholic doctrines before making your decision. In this case, according to the Catholic myth one who is entering this place of "eternal damnation" can not be carrying hope. He faces this punishment for all eternity. How can there be room for hope?
But this is just fiction, and nothing more. What does it matter if we don't get it quiet right? It's not like our "eternal" soul will suffer if this passage is not exactly what the author had in mind.
So are we to take the same attitude toward the Scriptures? Is it important if His words are translated accurately? Do we need this information for some reason? What are the consequences for not getting the Author's thoughts and meanings?
CLV 2Tim 3:16 All scripture is inspired by God, and is beneficial for teaching, for exposure, for correction, for discipline in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be equipped, fitted out for every good act.
Paul knew the importance of His Words. He expressed this importance in his writings to Timothy and the others.
CLV 2Tim 1:13 Have a pattern of sound words, which you hear from me, in faith and love which are in Christ Jesus.
Knoch writes:
The pattern of sound words is one of the most serious needs for the student of the Scriptures. If it was necessary for Timothy to cling to the particular Greek expressions used by the apostle, how much greater is the need for some definite pattern on which to model the words of aversion? How can the English reader hope to fulfill this exhortation when the translations which he uses publicly proclaim their avoidance of any uniformity or pattern in their production? The constant and consistent use of correct terms is one of the greatest possible aids in assimilating and teaching truth. The greatest hindrance is the inconsistent use of inexact terms which have their force nullified by use in incorrect contexts.
Then there are the warnings...
CLV Re 22:18 "I am testifying to everyone who is hearing the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If ever anyone may be appending onto them, God shall be appending onto him the calamities written in this scroll.
19 And if ever anyone should be eliminating from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God shall be eliminating his part from the log of life, and out of the holy city, that is written in this scroll.
It seems that not everyone has the same attitude that Paul and John have about the Scriptures. If you are Catholic then the value of the Scriptures seems to go down in importance. The Catholics seem to value the man-made doctrines of their church more than the divine inspiration of the Scriptures.
Case in point...
CLV Deut 5:8 You shall not make for yourself a carving nor any physical representation of that in the heavens above or that on the earth beneath or that in the waters beneath the earth.
9 You shall not bow yourself down to them, nor be made to serve them, for I, Yahweh your Elohim, am a jealous El, visiting the depravity of the fathers on the sons, on the third and on the fourth generation, to those hating Me,
All the world recognizes this verse as the Second Commandment received by Moses on Mt. Sinai. The day that Moses spoke with God Himself and brought down His Laws.
But if you are Catholic this authority seems to fade in favor of the discussions that men have had over such subjects. The Scriptures and the authority that even Jesus recognized will pass by and bow to the authority of the church.
And so we come to the latest lie from the Catholic camp. This is just another lie in a long list of them. I will not bore you with all of them, but a few. This poster tried to convince us earlier that the word for "church," the Ancient Greek term 'ekklesia,' was only in the Bible three times. When, in fact, it appears 118 times. Another Catholic posted some Modern Greek phrases and tried to have us believe that they were Ancinet Koine Greek. He even said, "Koine Greek doesn't lie." Unfortunately he does.
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| 10/4/2014 11:50:14 AM |
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bigd9832
Chicago, IL
64, joined Oct. 2007
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(cont.)
And the latest lie?
Acts 9:31 (Greek Bible), "ai men oun ekklesiai kath oles tes ioudaias kai galilaias kai samareias eichon eirenen oikodomoumenai kai poreuomenai to phobo tou kuriou kai te paraklesei tou agiou pneumatos eplethunonto" EKKLESIA KATH'OLES.
I can only guess, as we are not given much information as to the origin of this rendition of this verse. The words in upper case suggest that this is a part that has been somehow missing or ignored. "EKKLESIA KATH'OLES"
Now the word "EKKLESIA" I do recognize. It is the Ancient Greek term that is often translated as "church." Not necessarily the best rendering but at least it is a common term.
However, the word "KATH'OLES" in have never seen before. Not in any of the 4 Ancient Koine Greek manuscripts that are considered the oldest and most complete in the world today.
Here is the Ancient Greek text for Acts 9:31. Now my eyes are not what they used to be, but I fail to see the word "KATH'OLES" in any way, shape, or form in this verse. Can anyone point it out?
Now if we are not able to find this word "KATH'OLES" anywhere in the Ancient Greek text, that means that someone at some point added it to the text. My question is, was it added hundreds of years ago by the Catholic church, or added as recently as a few days ago?
Next we are told...
The term "Catholic", derived from the Greek word ?a??????? (katholikos), which means "universal" or "general", was also used to describe the Church in the early 2nd century. The term katholikos is equivalent to ?a????? (katholou), a contraction of the phrase ?a?' ???? (kath' holou) meaning "according to the whole". Thus the full name Catholic Church roughly means "universal" or "whole" church. END QUOTE
from CAF..............................................................................
Now sure what all the dots are for.
I do have some problems with these statements.
One of the major problems effecting Early Christianity was that it was outlawed by the Roman government. Rome had decided that Christianity was more than just a nuisance and declared it illegal to collect and hold Christian materials. Anyone doing so would have been fed to the lions or crucified.
It is believed by some scholars that much of the four gospels were taken down from stories passed on by Christian Jews as much as 100 years after Jesus left.
And yet here the Catholic church has magically been able to preserve these documents despite the fact that so many have lost their lives for such an act. I find it hard to believe that these documents could be genuine. Perhaps there is a reason why no one is allowed in the Vatican Library.
Now this poster tells us by the little phrase at the end ("END QUOTE") that this materiel was quoted from some source. However she fails to give us the source of the quote. Where does it come from? Did she pull it out of her a$$?
Now this next part is priceless...
I'm not going to get into a contentious argument over whether the Church above is the Church of today, but Catholic certainly is in the Bible. It means Universal.
Essentially this statement removes all responsibility from the shoulders of this poster. She feels she has no obligation to back up what she has said and if proven wrong refuses to discuss it.
Way to go deneez!
No one can ever accuse her of lying or misrepresenting Scripture as long as she refuses to discuss it. I just wonder how God see this.
Perhaps the Greek scholar you enjoy arguing with already knew that and is pulling your chain.
Or not. I've got an idea. But I'll keep it to me-self.
It is obvious that she has decided to keep much of this information to herself. So far she has refused to answer questions like...
What Bible is this from? How old is it?
What was the source of the "quote" posted here?
__________________________________________________________
This is from a Catholic source called the Advent, a Catholic Encyclopedia. It gives us the word "katholou" (but not "KATH'OLES") and describes where it comes from...
The word Catholic (katholikos from katholou — throughout the whole, i.e., universal) occurs in the Greek classics, e.g., in Aristotle and Polybius, and was freely used by the earlier Christian writers in what we may call its primitive and non-ecclesiastical sense.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03449a.htm
It says "in Aristotle and Polybius, and was freely used by the earlier Christian writers."
It does not say, however, that this word was used in the Scriptures.
It is a good thing she is not discussing this bit of fantasy.
It is easy for someone without any affiliation to any church to stand behind a rock and throw shots at you. You've aligned yourself with this Church, being neither hot nor cold...which is why some of the things brought forth from the both of them make me want to vomit.
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| 10/4/2014 1:15:09 PM |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
64, joined Feb. 2008
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Does all this pertain to the Eastern Orthodox as well? They believe everything Catholics do, except for yhe pope.
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| 10/4/2014 2:59:35 PM |
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bigd9832
Chicago, IL
64, joined Oct. 2007
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Does all this pertain to the Eastern Orthodox as well? They believe everything Catholics do, except for yhe pope.
Now why would the ORTHODOX church add the word CATHOLIC to the Bible? There is only one suspect here.
Also, it seems the Orthodox church has maintained the same 10 Commandments that the rest of the world keeps. Only the Catholic church has changed them.
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| 10/4/2014 3:45:35 PM |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
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How does the Church do it, you ask? Century after century goes by and she teaches the same doctrines, century in and century out. Protestants---they change their teachings every time popular opinion changes. One century they're against divorce and remarriage; the next century they're for it. One century they're for slavery; the next century they're against it. One century they're against contraception--the next century they're for it. Flip flop flip flop flip flop.
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| 10/4/2014 7:14:14 PM |
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bigd9832
Chicago, IL
64, joined Oct. 2007
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ludlow...
This thread is about the lie that was told under one of your threads. It is not a menagerie of commercials for the Catholic church.
There is no reason for you to go OFF TOPIC.
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| 10/5/2014 7:11:39 AM |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
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Bigd, your own personal belief system is different from Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, fundamentalist Protestant, and mainline Protestant. But the Catholic faith is the only one you criticize. Occasionally you mentiin these others but at least 90% of time you target the Catholic Church. Why don't you start a "Get Ready for the Next Mainline Protestant Lie" thread? They, too, reject your theories about Heaven, the divinity of Christ, the divinity of the Holy Spirit, and the Trinity.
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| 10/5/2014 9:22:51 AM |
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bigd9832
Chicago, IL
64, joined Oct. 2007
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Bigd, your own personal belief system is different from Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, fundamentalist Protestant, and mainline Protestant. But the Catholic faith is the only one you criticize.
You exaggerate your own importance and the importance of this web site. The forums here are used for entertainment value only. There is nothing that will be said here that comes in front of the queen, or in your case the "pope."
This is your little world. Perhaps this is all you know of the discussions on Christianity. Perhaps it is time for you to spread your wings a bit and fly the nest.
Occasionally you mentiin these others but at least 90% of time you target the Catholic Church. Why don't you start a "Get Ready for the Next Mainline Protestant Lie" thread? They, too, reject your theories about Heaven, the divinity of Christ, the divinity of the Holy Spirit, and the Trinity.
I have discussed my beliefs and some of the problems of many of the major Christian religions in the past. If you viewed my posts from the beginning you might see that. It's only recently that I have been on this Catholic rampage.
But let us look at the origins of Christianity for a moment. You claim that Christianity began with the Catholic church. That the Bible was first produced by the Catholic church. Yet I maintain that some of the greatest lies were started by the Catholic church as well. It was the Catholic church that made some of the biggest blunders. Not to mention how these "religious and holy" men tried (and succeeded, I might add) to take over the political agenda of Europe.
Some of the greatest lies created by the Catholic church are...
Immortality of the soul
hell
purgatory
trinity
veneration of Mary
And now this latest lie about having the word "catholic" in the Scriptures.
They, too, reject your theories about Heaven, the divinity of Christ, the divinity of the Holy Spirit, and the Trinity.
Now honestly, do you think I care who doesn't agree with me? My relationship is with God, not men. God speaks to me and has led me since I was a teen. Those who know His voice will recognize it in my work.
Everyone will eventually have to learn this stuff. If not in this life then in the next. Ignore it at your own risk.
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| 10/5/2014 11:15:39 AM |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
64, joined Feb. 2008
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If you don't care who disagrees with you why the constant drumbeat against Catholicism? Others believe in the immortality of the soul. Your Eastern Orthodox buddies believe in the veneration of Mary.
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| 10/5/2014 11:39:32 AM |
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bigd9832
Chicago, IL
64, joined Oct. 2007
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ludlow...
I have exposed the truth. I don't aim that at anyone. It is what it is. And I do NOT tell people what to believe.
I do blame the Catholic church for starting many of these lies. And perpetuating them.
I don't care how many people have swallowed the BS about the Immortality of the soul. It makes no difference. God wants His truth be known. He has revealed Himself to us with the Scriptures. That is His chosen media. Not the church.
Honestly ludlow. You need to get out more. Talk to some people. Try to understand a little more than you own little world.
Take a tip from Paul...
CLV 1Cor 9:19 For, being free out of all, I enslave myself to all, that I should be gaining the more.
20 And I became to the Jews as a Jew, that I should be gaining Jews; to those under law as under law (not being myself under law), that I should be gaining those under law;
21 to those without law as without law (not being without God's law, but legally Christ's), that I should be gaining those without law.
22 I became as weak to the weak, that I should be gaining the weak. To all have I become all, that I should undoubtedly be saving some.
23 Now all am I doing because of the evangel, that I may be becoming a joint participant of it.
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| 10/5/2014 12:59:56 PM |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
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If I understand you, your belief system is that the souls of the virtuous sleep until the return of Christ, and after that they inherit a glorified earth. So at least those people have immortaity of the soul. But the not-virtuous, what happens to them when they pass this life?
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| 10/5/2014 2:11:39 PM |
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bigd9832
Chicago, IL
64, joined Oct. 2007
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These people have no soul. When Jesus returns He will raise the dead and give all mankind a new body. A bloodless, soulless body. A body that is not subject to death and decay, like this one is.
So you know what the soul is? I mean, according to the Scriptures.
The Earth will no be glorified. We will have to work on the Earth until it is like Heaven. Jesus will be here guiding us.
And what happens to the those who do not make the cut?
CLV Jn 5:29 and those who do good shall go out into a resurrection of life, yet those who commit bad things, into a resurrection of judging.
The Second Resurrection.
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| 10/5/2014 3:52:49 PM |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
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The souls of the just will wander around like zombies with no soul? And what happens to the reprobate after the second ressurection? And how come nobody seems to know all this except you?
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| 10/5/2014 4:48:39 PM |
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bigd9832
Chicago, IL
64, joined Oct. 2007
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The souls of the just will wander around like zombies with no soul?
It is very obvious that you do not understand the nature of death as described in the Scriptures.
Tell me, what happens to the light when a light bulb is disconnected from it's source of electricity.
And what happens to the reprobate after the second ressurection?
Have you never read the Book of Revelation? That event marks the Day of God. The end of the Lord's Day and Jesus' reign on Earth.
CLV Re 20:11 And I perceived a great white throne, and Him Who is sitting upon it, from Whose face earth and heaven fled, and not place was found for them.
12 And I perceived the dead, the great and the small, standing sight before the throne. And scrolls were opened. And another scroll was opened which is the scroll of life. And the dead were judged by that which is written in the scrolls in accord with their acts.
13 And the sea gives up the dead in it, and death and the unseen give up the dead in them. And they were condemned, each in accord with their acts.
14 And death and the unseen were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death--the lake of fire.
15 And if anyone was not found written in the scroll of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.
And how come nobody seems to know all this except you?
There is a whole big world out there lud. More than you can imagine by hangin gout here in DHland. There are lots of people who know this stuff. You just never met them.
And you have to ask yourself why? Why would someone with this much knowledge want to hang out with you? What do you have to offer? All you do is quote Catholic doctrine. Anyone can look that up on the web. No one needs you for that.
Do you know what Knoch calls this type of research. Panhandling. It's like the prospectors of the days of old lookin for gold. Every now and then they would find a nugget. And that's how it's done, one nugget at a time.
Let me know when you are serious about understanding what the soul is.
Oh, and by the way, there are a few people I have run into here in DHland that do know this stuff. I guess you just weren't paying attention.
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| 10/5/2014 5:31:37 PM |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
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By "second resurrection" you are describing the second coming of Christ. Okay, now we're getting somewhere. That lake of fire Jesus spoke of here---if that's not Hell, what is it?
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| 10/6/2014 2:24:10 AM |
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bigd9832
Chicago, IL
64, joined Oct. 2007
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By "second resurrection" you are describing the second coming of Christ. Okay, now we're getting somewhere. That lake of fire Jesus spoke of here---if that's not Hell, what is it?
The "second Resurrection" is not when Jesus comes. The first Resurrection is when Jesus comes. The Second Resurrection is at the end of the Millennium.
Jesus comes
He destroys all governments
He Resurrects the dead
Gives all Mankind new bodies
The He puts those who do not make the cut back to sleep
The Millennium - 1000 years, just as the name suggests.
During this time we will be working with Jesus to make Earth like Heaven.
The above describes the Lord's Day.
CLV 1Cor 15:25 For He must be reigning until He which should be placing all His enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy is being abolished: death.
27 For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him.
28 Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.
Is this much clear?
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| 10/6/2014 10:36:56 AM |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
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So those who do not make the cut just sleep forever? The lake of fire in Revelation----what is that all about?
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| 10/6/2014 5:15:59 PM |
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bigd9832
Chicago, IL
64, joined Oct. 2007
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So those who do not make the cut just sleep forever? The lake of fire in Revelation----what is that all about?
No. I didn't say that.
Please refrain from putting word in my posts.
I asked if you got it so far.
BTW, I object to your use of the word "forever." The Bible rarely uses that term. In Ancient Greek eternity is ALWAYS expressed in the negative. "Without end" might be an example. The Ancient Greek term 'aion' is often mis-translated as forever. The reality is much different...
G165 aion ahee-ohn'
from the same as G104;
properly, an age; by extension, perpetuity (also past); by implication, the world; specially (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future). Compare G5550.
That's why Young's uses the word "age"...
YLT Jn 8:52 The Jews, therefore, said to him, 'Now we have known that thou hast a demon; Abraham did die, and the prophets, and thou dost say, If any one may keep my word, he shall not taste of death--to the age!
In the Hebrew they have a phrase based on this same word. 'olam' also means age. They say, "For the age and beyond."
There is so many misconceptions based on this wrong translation of the words 'olam' and 'aion.'
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| 10/6/2014 9:15:34 PM |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
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"Forever" and "without end" are the same thing, no?
I'm still curious about what happens to the reprobate after they finish sleeping. Do they just cease to exist? And tell me about that lake of fire we find in Revelation.
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| 10/6/2014 9:25:19 PM |
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bigd9832
Chicago, IL
64, joined Oct. 2007
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"Forever" and "without end" are the same thing, no?
Probably. But neither of them can be accurately translated from 'olam' or 'aion.' Those words don't mean "forever," but "age."
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| 10/6/2014 9:43:12 PM |
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bigd9832
Chicago, IL
64, joined Oct. 2007
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So, according to the Scriptures, what is the soul?
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| 10/7/2014 9:05:47 AM |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
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Answer my two questions first and I will be happy to answer yours.
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| 10/7/2014 11:12:24 AM |
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bigd9832
Chicago, IL
64, joined Oct. 2007
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I am not playing your game.
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| 10/7/2014 12:11:49 PM |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
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Do you have to make it up as you go?
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| 10/7/2014 6:43:29 PM |
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bigd9832
Chicago, IL
64, joined Oct. 2007
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Nope. I used the Scriptures. Everything I say I can back up in the Book.
But I still can't find...
trinity
pope
purgatory
mother of God
Just to name a few.
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| 10/7/2014 8:16:21 PM |
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wayn49
Birmingham, AL
55, joined Feb. 2011
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"Forever" and "without end" are the same thing, no?
I'm still curious about what happens to the reprobate after they finish sleeping. Do they just cease to exist? And tell me about that lake of fire we find in Revelation.
they sleep till the resurrection. then they will be judged and every knee will confess. and fire comes down from heaven and devours them and the devil along with his evil angels and the beast and false prophet will be cast into that lake of fire. i know revelation uses the term forever and ever. but i believe that means the effects of the fire are everlasting not the fire itself. that is why i do not believe in purgatory. because once you die thats it. then our fate is sealed forever. and purgatory is not found in the bible
at least this is how i see this when i read it
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| 10/8/2014 9:52:28 AM |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
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Outside the Chuch everybody has their own opinion.
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| 10/8/2014 12:04:10 PM |
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bigd9832
Chicago, IL
64, joined Oct. 2007
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Outside the Chuch everybody has their own opinion.
The church is corrupt and therefore not a very good source of information.
The Scriptures will verify what wayne and I have said.
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| 10/8/2014 12:23:22 PM |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
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Yes, the Church is made up of sinners. After all we are all sinners. The scriptures were written by such sinners as David, Moses, Solomon, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, Paul, Jude, and James, but God still made them inerrant as they wrote. Why can't God make sinful popes inerrant as well?
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| 10/8/2014 12:25:38 PM |
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bigd9832
Chicago, IL
64, joined Oct. 2007
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How can a pope be sinful and infallible? It makes no sense.
The Catholic church is corrupt.
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| 10/8/2014 12:34:55 PM |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
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How can Paul, writing his epistles, be sinful and inerrant? It can be done. God is quite powerful.
Still waiting to hear you explain what that lake of fire is all about.
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| 10/8/2014 12:40:16 PM |
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bigd9832
Chicago, IL
64, joined Oct. 2007
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How can Paul, writing his epistles, be sinful and inerrant? It can be done. God is quite powerful.
Are you trying to put words in my keyboard again? I never said Paul was sinful, or inerrant. You sure do like to make assumptions.
Still waiting to hear you explain what that lake of fire is all about.
I already told you I am not playing your game. So I guess you will be waiting for a very long time. Perhaps even as long as it takes for hell to freeze over, if I believed there was a "hell."
Good luck with that.
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| 10/8/2014 1:00:43 PM |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
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Then I will say it--Paul was both sinful and inerrant. According to many secular sources, Saul, as he was known then, fathered an illegitimate child at age 17. Also, he resisted the Holy Spirit for several years until the Lord literally knocked him off his horse. And Paul was inerrant when writing his epistles, which now make up a huge part of the New Testament.
Matthew fleeced people when he was a tax collector and later abandoned Jesus when Jesus was arrested. Matthew was still inerrant when he wrote his Gospel.
John, with inordinate ambition, wanted special places for himself and his brother James. God still made him inerrant when he wrote his Gospel.
Jude and James abandoned the Lord when He was arrested. But God still made them inerrant when they wrote their epistles.
We are all sinners. If only the perfect could teach, interpret scripture, or write scripture, there wouldn't be any scripture.
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| 10/8/2014 1:57:19 PM |
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bigd9832
Chicago, IL
64, joined Oct. 2007
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Paul changed and so did Matthew.
There is no evidence to suggest that the men who run the Catholic church are different.
The church is corrupt.
Just look at how they are trying to manipulate the Bible by adding the word "catholic."
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| 10/8/2014 2:20:08 PM |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
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The bishop and martyr Ignatius of Antioch was using the term "Catholic Church" circa 110 ad, almost 300 years before the Catholic. Church put the Bible together.
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| 10/9/2014 12:07:59 AM |
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bigd9832
Chicago, IL
64, joined Oct. 2007
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The Catholic church is corrupt. Their information has been tainted. Anyone can use the Scriptures, as they were intended, to see the corruption and folly of their man made doctrines.
CLV 2Ti 3:16 All scripture is inspired by God, and is beneficial for teaching, for exposure, for correction, for discipline in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be equipped, fitted out for every good act.
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| 10/9/2014 7:10:23 AM |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
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If it weren't for the Catholic Church, you wouldn't have a II Timothy to quote from.
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| 10/9/2014 12:11:53 PM |
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bigd9832
Chicago, IL
64, joined Oct. 2007
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I still don't believe that.
No matter how many times you repeat it.
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| 10/9/2014 2:21:45 PM |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
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Have you read the Wikipedia article "Synod of Hippo"? If you would you would see that the Catholic Church put the New Testament together.
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| 10/9/2014 11:57:23 PM |
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bigd9832
Chicago, IL
64, joined Oct. 2007
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Pope Innocent I - 405 A.D. wrote his own canon. He was an "infallible" pope, right?
That would render the Wikipedia article "Synod of Hippo" wrong.
Wrong, just like you ludlow.
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| 10/10/2014 7:11:16 AM |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
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I checked some Wikipedia articles, and apparently Pope Innocent I's canon was the same as the canon adopted at Hippo. Do you have different information? Did Innocent add any books, or leave any of them out? If so, which ones?
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| 10/10/2014 12:55:44 PM |
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bigd9832
Chicago, IL
64, joined Oct. 2007
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Pope Innocent 1 wanted to omit the Book of Hebrews.
But I posted that way back in July in the thread "Where Did the Bible Come From?"
I have said it before and I will say it again. ludlow, you don't pay attention to what is being said here.
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| 10/10/2014 2:44:24 PM |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
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No, Bigd, I don't read every post on DH, I sure don't. Ididn't think I had to ("Thou shalt read every post on DH is not in MY Bible--maybe it's in the CLV).
I checked out that business of Pope Innocent leaving out Hebrews. Innocent wrote a letter to Exsuperius, bishop of Toulouse, in the year 405. In some extant copies it says that there are 14 epistles of Paul in the New Testament; in some it says 13. No extant copy of Innocent's specifically says that Hebrews should be left out, and Paul's epistles are not listed by name. Scholars believe that copyists may have inadvertantly left ot an "i" while copying Innocent's letter.
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| 10/10/2014 8:41:43 PM |
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bigd9832
Chicago, IL
64, joined Oct. 2007
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And because you say so we are just supposed to roll over?
I don't think so.
You will have to provide some kind of documentation, least someone accuses you of making this up.
I have already posted some documentation when I posted that way back in July in the thread "Where Did the Bible Come From?"
To quote yourself... "it is in Wiki so it is true."
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| 10/11/2014 7:21:10 AM |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
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See www.bibleresearcher.com/innocent.
[Edited 10/11/2014 7:22:50 AM ]
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| 10/11/2014 7:57:41 AM |
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bigd9832
Chicago, IL
64, joined Oct. 2007
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See www.bibleresearcher.com/innocent.
Here is the information I got from that web site...
404 Error File Not Found
The page you are looking for might have been removed,
had its name changed, or is temporarily unavailable.
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| 10/11/2014 11:34:30 AM |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
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I just pulled it up on my computer. By the way it's in both Latin and English.
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| 10/11/2014 11:59:33 AM |
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bigd9832
Chicago, IL
64, joined Oct. 2007
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I am getting the same error message...
404 Error File Not Found
The page you are looking for might have been removed,
had its name changed, or is temporarily unavailable.
But if this is true history, there must be other sources.
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| 10/11/2014 12:11:27 PM |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
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Try simply, "letter if innocent". I just got it that way with no problem.
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| 10/11/2014 12:13:44 PM |
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bigd9832
Chicago, IL
64, joined Oct. 2007
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I tried the wen site that you posted.
If I did get something, how will I know if it is what you are using?
You have to give us the correct URL.
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| 10/11/2014 5:25:52 PM |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
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I've got this funny funny feeling that if you really wanted to find it you could have found it by now.
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| 10/11/2014 7:12:32 PM |
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bigd9832
Chicago, IL
64, joined Oct. 2007
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I am sure everyone says that when they present bogus information.
The Catholic church is corrupt.
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| 10/12/2014 8:15:24 PM |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
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Show me where I'm bogus on this issue---show me a canon Pope Innocent or any other pope made that specifically leaves out Hebrews.
Martin Luther left Hebrews out of his Bible, along with Revelation and James. Where's your criticism of Luther, and the Lutheran church?
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| 10/12/2014 11:32:00 PM |
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bigd9832
Chicago, IL
64, joined Oct. 2007
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I didn't get any info from that bogus web site. Maybe you picked on that doesn't work and then made up a story about it.
Now I am not sure if this is what you did. And I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. But I will not accept information that you cannot back up.
I have already posted an article from Wiki which said that your Pope Innocent removed the Book of Hebrew from the list.
If you are going to participate in these debates you need to pay attention to what is being said.
By the way, did you know they made him a saint? Many web sites describe him as the most corrupt pope ever.
The Catholic church is corrupt.
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| 10/13/2014 8:19:08 AM |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
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Pope Innocent's letter does not mention Hebrews by name. Luther trying to throw out Hebrews, James, and Revelation is well recorded history.
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| 10/13/2014 10:18:03 AM |
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bigd9832
Chicago, IL
64, joined Oct. 2007
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It is enough to show that the Catholic church had not stopped working on the canon. That it was still being worked on. And that the Catholics could not agree on a canon for generations.
It proves that the canon of "Synod of Hippo" was not the final canon, and not ratified by the Catholic church.
It also opens the door for others to have come up with the first canon, perhaps Constantine. Two Ancient Greek manuscripts predate the Latin versions and show no signs of Catholic influence. And yet these two manuscripts include all the books in our NT today.
Something smells fishy here.
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| 10/13/2014 12:18:06 PM |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
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Are those ancient Greek manuscripts the Codex Alexandrius and the Codex Sinaiticus?
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| 10/13/2014 3:46:16 PM |
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bigd9832
Chicago, IL
64, joined Oct. 2007
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Yes. Do you have them?
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| 10/13/2014 4:11:33 PM |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
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Well, I did some checking, and I found that the Codex Siniaticus dates from the fourth century, making it older than the Council of Hippo, but it contains 75 books, to include Shepherd of Hermas and the Epistle of Barnabus, two books the Council of Hippo decided not to include in the canon. The Codex Alexandrius has 78 books in its canon, including III and IV Maccabres, I and II Clement, and a book called Marcellinus. This manuscript came from the 400s, making it newer than tbe Council of Hippo.
Both cases, wrong canon.
[Edited 10/13/2014 4:12:24 PM ]
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| 10/13/2014 4:16:32 PM |
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bigd9832
Chicago, IL
64, joined Oct. 2007
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Actually I have them both and they both have the same books that every other Bible has. in the NT, of course.
Where are you getting your information from?
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