Should there be a full torture investigation

4/24/2009 10:30:17 AM	Should there be a full torture investigation
alan272 East Helena, MT 59, joined Feb. 2009	It seems that many people are hesitant about digging deeper into the recent releases of the torture memos because it might lead up to a full investigation including George W. Bush and D*ck Cheney. I don't understand why Americans frown on criminal investigations of their top leaders. Many other countries have put their former Presidents in jail with the recent incarceration of Peru's Alberto Fujimori. If it can be proven that Bush and Cheney gave direct orders to torture these people to desperately find a link between Saddam and Al-Qaeda... Should they be put in prison? Meet singles at DateHookup.dating, we're 100% free! Join now!
4/24/2009 6:17:14 PM	Should there be a full torture investigation
pamela0324 Pasadena, MD 63, joined Nov. 2007	I'm inclined to believe investigations will begin. The allegations have reached almost nuclear strength. I think the momentum is increasing and Congress will move forward with investigations, commissions, whatever they call the efforts. There's no turning back now. That said....we need to know the truth about our leaders, as ugly as it might be. Peace, Pam
4/25/2009 12:48:01 PM	Should there be a full torture investigation
coolchick Woodway, TX 64, joined Nov. 2006	alan! pam! Good thread, alan. Very provocative subject. I agree with Pam that an investigation is inevitable. I'm worried, though, that it may end with no prosecution of individuals - even if the conclusion is that "harsh investigative techniques" were ordered or condoned from the top of the Executive Branch of the federal government. I think back to the pardon that President Ford granted to Richard Nixon. Nixon was caught red-handed ordering criminal acts, but Ford concluded that it would harm the country to prosecute him. I really think it was all about protecting the "sanctity" of the office of the President. I think Ford was dead-wrong, and that Nixon should have faced the full scope of the law. If Nixon would have been prosecuted, I believe it would have had a cleansing effect on our nation. I believe that, because he got away with his criminal acts, a climate of deep distrust and cynicism was created - and pervades American politics to this day. Giving the order, or following the order to torture captured combatants during a time of war is a war crime. The articles of the Geneva Convention are clear about what constitutes torture. Water-boarding, electrocution, and committing acts of depravity are clearly torture. We already have proof that these acts were committed by American military, or by agents acting at the behest of the federal government. We have proof also that some of the prisoners died during or shortly after their "interrogation". The recent release of formerly classified memos takes the paper trail directly to Rumsfeld and Rice. How could President Bush not have known about those directives? But...will the investigative body be brave enough to conclude that war crimes were ordered or committed? Or, will they "pull a Ford" and come up with conclusions that, in the end, "protect the sanctity of the office of the President"? Stay tuned...
4/30/2009 8:28:15 AM	Should there be a full torture investigation
alan272 East Helena, MT 59, joined Feb. 2009	What's interesting with all these documents coming out is how heavily involved D*ck (deadeye) Cheney was involved with the torture approval. He's lashing out now like a cornered animal. He must have manipulated W like a puppet. [Edited 4/30/2009 8:41:24 AM ]
9/9/2009 10:20:23 PM	Should there be a full torture investigation
friedtatersalad Belton, TX 58, joined Feb. 2009	it is a waste of time,after the church commitee hearings the cia was ordered not to assasinate any political or military targets or carry out any wet work .The intellegence community just found the ways to do it outside of congressional oversite,for example a operative is trained to carry out a operation banned by the congress then resigns hires onto the israeli intellegences agency does the job then quits the israelis and comes back to work for the agency.legally it was done by a foriegn government even though the orders came from the white house and the job was done by a former agent ,another tactic is to have outside finance applied, men like howard hughes I use him as a example for it is well documented he funded covert operations for the agency to avoid congressional oversight. Torture is now and has always been a tool of the intellegence operative and will continue to be,if congress intervens it will just be for show and quit meaningless. A person I know went way out of his way to track down operations in the government and he found some interesting things hidden in plain sight,all I could say when he showed me his proof of corruption was what are you gonna do now that you know all this stuff? He winced up his forhead and thought about it and I could see he hadn't thought that far ahead(he thought about it and studied it but to what end)all he could say was be prepared! It's to bad he wasted all that time tracking down facts that people dont want to hear.It is all very interesting but in the end nothing of any real meaning will happen it will be business as usual,the real concern is to keep your nose out of government duties and not get caught up in those actions,life is much simpler and we can sit back and say aw that is so sad and go eat our steak and taters and drink our wine while whatever must be done is done safely out of site and mind.
9/9/2009 11:04:06 PM	Should there be a full torture investigation
coolchick Woodway, TX 64, joined Nov. 2006	friedtaters. What about the moral imperative to take a stand and say our government will not torture prisoners of war? We have an agreement to that on paper, and it's called the Geneva Convention. We got our a** in a crack over this, due to the eight years that George W. Bush ignored the Geneva Convention and approved of torture. It is immoral to continue this practice. There may be some who will try to circumvent, and they can and should be rooted out if they pop up. We also owe it to our service men and women to take the moral high ground here. If we do not treat our prisoners of war humanely, then what right do we have to demand that our sons and daughters be treated humanely if taken prisoner in a theatre of war? It only takes one order to turn things around: Cease and desist from torturing prisoners. Does this mean that our enemies will all suddenly begin treating prisoners more humanely? Of course not, but America still has an obligation to be a shining example for the world. We are still enough of a power that our every move is watched closely from every region of the world. As we return to honoring long-standing agreements and show that we are taking the moral high ground, the hue and cry coming from our enemies will carry less and less weight with those who are looking to see who they want to side with.
9/9/2009 11:59:48 PM	Should there be a full torture investigation
liberal08 Spring, TX 65, joined Feb. 2007	DOJ may have more insight than Congress which is more public and therefor more for show. Bottom line is that those who do not learn from their mistakes are doomed to repeat them. (ANd yes, I know that is not original.)
9/10/2009 7:59:34 PM	Should there be a full torture investigation
zorro932 Middle River, MD 57, joined Jun. 2009	The short answer is yes, there should be an investigation, but I doubt that it will happen. This would take away from what the President is trying to do with both health care and and the economy, and the Republicans would scream that any investigation would be politically motivated. During the Revolution, George Washington went out of his way to make sure British POW's were treated very well. His thought there was no better way to show the spirit of the Revolution, than to treat them as humanely as possible. As a result, Washington's reputation rose quite a bit in the UK once the war was over. We might look a little better in the eyes of the world today if we started treating the current POW's with a little more humanity.
9/11/2009 6:35:47 PM	Should there be a full torture investigation
danguitarman Redding, CA 63, joined Aug. 2007	Very good, Zorro, and I agree. The investigation is happening now and yes, it is DOJ. A lot of career CIA people wouldn't have anything to do with this and they hired OUTSIDE CONTRACTERS to do the torturing for them. That fact makes me sick. It is all going to come out. D*ck Cheney ordered torture of an Iraqui official, a member of the Iraqi government, to make him "confess" of ties between Iraq and Osama Bin Laden that did not exist. This was not torture to protect America. This was torture to obtain LIES. And the motivation for this torture was political, and had nothing to do with protecting our country or our soldiers. The more details we learn, the more sickening it gets.
9/12/2009 1:33:59 PM	Should there be a full torture investigation
coolchick Woodway, TX 64, joined Nov. 2006	1bit2spurs, you are full of chit and insult my intelligence. Of course I remember 9/11. My son joined the Army shortly afterwards. He served two tours of combat duty in Iraq, back in the day when it was going on over there full-blown. I spent two years wondering every day if I was going to get a call informing me that my son was either dead or taken prisoner. When I found out about Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld ignoring the Geneva Convention, and condoning torture of prisoners - I was incensed. I thought, man, if my son is captured he is a goner for sure...because we've shown the enemy that we have no respect for agreements we have signed, and are all for torture and even killing those taken prisoner. I do not have morals because I have a "full belly". It wouldn't matter if my belly was full or if I was starving. My sense of values and morals would be the same. Right is right, and wrong is wrong. 1bit, you fell hook, line & sinker for the Bush regime mantra that all of our enemies were to be lumped into being described as "terrorists". By describing the enemy as "terrorists", they somehow became considered as not worthy of having the Geneva Convention applied to them. Bullshit. What we were fighting in Iraq in the beginning were mostly tribes people who were pissed off that we invaded their country. Then Iran being exporting some combatants to get into the mix. By the time my son finished his last tour of duty over there, it was a full-blown civil war between tribes - with the U.S. occupying forces stuck in the middle. Now the violence has died down quite a bit, but the U.S. is still stuck with being an occupier in a land that we invaded without provocation, and where our armed forcdes will never be wanted. If this country sinks to the level of condoning chopping prisoners heads off because some whackos in another country deal with their prisoners that way, then we have become our own worst enemy.
9/13/2009 12:24:41 PM	Should there be a full torture investigation
coolchick Woodway, TX 64, joined Nov. 2006	(this post has been flagged as inappropriate, sorry.)
9/13/2009 2:36:40 PM	Should there be a full torture investigation
walter555 Albuquerque, NM 60, joined May. 2009	1bit2spurs You're a plant in this thread with a phony profile.
9/16/2009 12:52:00 AM	Should there be a full torture investigation
friedtatersalad Belton, TX 58, joined Feb. 2009	jumping in here but not to deep,one bit two spurs made some great points and so did coolchick,but the truth to me is we should be free to say what we want no matter that evokes anger,this somehow justifies the sacrifice of our young,it is when we dont fight the points that the truth is lost and the efforts become meaningless. while our democracy is a work in progress and we should seek the moral high ground,I agree with spurs that there are some times when the truth must be relative to our actions in regards to security(wow what a muddy mess I just made), we fought Iran by proxy through Iraq at the same time we furnished Iran missles to use against Iraq.(remember Iran contra and oli north) Where is that moral High ground? After the first Gulf war we destroyed sadams chemical stockpile at el kimishia and it was recorded by the soldiers, ordered to do it as proof that it was illigal US chemical weapons we supplied that were destoyed,It was on aired on 60 minutes years ago.It was proof positive the weapons used on iran by sadam were american made in violation of many treaties dating back to the first world war. Where was the moral high ground. where any changes made? Did any one go to prison? No the secretary of defense became vice president and the matter disappeared in hearings never to reapear in any real meaningful way. I Dont like terrorism the very vagueness of the term makes my blood boil,when the israelis wanted freedom and nationhood from england there act of terrorism were called military action but hiding bombs and attacking civilians wasnt very heroic to me. when we send million dollar cruise missle to blow up camels or beduins in the desert it seems kinda cowardly to me,not very heroic. When the bushes called for bin ladens head for insulting the bushes long before 911 and the saudis allowed the agency to poison him destroying his kidneys(he is now and will be for the rest of his life on dialisis from this failed assaination)is it so hard to understand that he is fighting for his very life against a vast politcal industrial complex, leaving no recourse but to turn our own weapons against us(the same way the israelis did against the british)instead of suing for peace we attack like a bully who got a black eye from a little child,unconcerned about the rest of the worlds children opinion of us(at our own peril I might suggest) [Edited 9/16/2009 12:54:34 AM ]
9/16/2009 1:17:20 AM	Should there be a full torture investigation
friedtatersalad Belton, TX 58, joined Feb. 2009	At the same time young men,like cool chicks son are in harms way we must justify there lifes given in blind faith to our way of life even though most only vaugly understand the principles of governence. No life is meaningless! Torture is ugly on one blog spot we debated torture most did not understand what it was ,one young man seemed to think that you torture get a answer and stop,he didn't realize the subtleties or realities of dental drills, porcupine quills and electric thrills,he didnt understand once started the torure must continue till the subject is incoherent and unable to lie, this process can take months. I for one dont want my son to rape another man, I dont want him to beat a restrained person,or drill holes in his teeth,or hold a blow torch to his feet,or even throw someone out of a helicopter.What we are told is torture is a sugar coated version of what really goes on in closed rooms and dungeons.I dont want anyone who I must share a society with ,taking another human so far from aceptable behavior then repeating this behavior not only to one person but hundreds. The enemy will torture!The enemy will not respect a people who show no respect, we must not mistake their war tactics with uncivil behavior. Like spurs said we can watch american citizens being beheaded with pocket knifes, I still can remember the sound of that mans cut throat screaming protest without a voice as he died. so to me it is not a question of who initiated what! but of how are we going to extracate our people from this mess and avoid future unconventional military attacks like we saw on 911. I worked and for nearly a year everyday my heart felt fear for a young man I knew who volunteered,I remembered when he was a baby feeding him singing him to sleep and with tears in my eyes I worked silently and hoped for him a safe return, I thought about how much I loved his mother and worried for her. like spurs said the picture is to big to make about partisan politics,it's about young men and woman fighting and dieing,it is about human decency ,it is about understanding freedom,it is about tomorow today and yesterday,and when you are standing over that young persons casket,if torture would have saved his or her life you would scream why not, unless it was your child being tortured and then you would scream stop and wonder why! I repeat myself There will be investigations just like el kimishia but in the end it will be words,nothing will undo the torture nothing will raise the dead. [Edited 9/16/2009 1:22:08 AM ]
9/16/2009 1:27:36 AM	Should there be a full torture investigation
friedtatersalad Belton, TX 58, joined Feb. 2009	I know I am all over the place with my statements,because I cant find the truth in a single idea or principle,I wish it were that easy but my mind is open and I will not close it for any goverment or party.
9/16/2009 9:23:01 PM	Should there be a full torture investigation
coolchick Woodway, TX 64, joined Nov. 2006	friedtater, you are thinking deep thoughts, and I'm listening. I get the feeling you may have experienced much in the military. Is that true? Yes, the U.S. supplied weapons to Saddam and he didn't stay the grateful dog. So, we invaded his country and saw that he met his fate at the gallows. Yes, we have not caught Osama Bin Laden, although we continue to sacrifice our sons and daughters on the alter of war in a strange, strange land. Yes, we have many skeletons in our closets. We lost the moral high ground for eight years. We tortured, and also exported torture to other countries so it wouldn't look we have getting all crazy with it on our turf. But, we must turn it around, we must be determined to now take and hold the moral high ground. I do think we can make a difference by returning to common decency. Sure, war is hell, but when the battle is over, you don't abuse and degrade your prisoners. We have a President now who says we will no longer torture. We should not measure ourselves against terrorists and others who torture. We should measure ourselves against what we know to be the honor and decency we can aspire to.
9/20/2009 5:36:57 PM	Should there be a full torture investigation
danguitarman Redding, CA 63, joined Aug. 2007	FriedTaterSalad You are making a difference now. You are educating all of us. Ignorance often appears to be clarity. In your confusion is wisdom. Do not despair. Remember that we are living in a joyous moment of history when the American people elected their first black President. Change is happening and it can't be stopped. The good old boys have lost their control of this country and they know it. The Cold Warriors are gone from power. We need this investigation. Whenever our government engages in this kind of behaviour it is imperative that we draw a line between good and evil and we declare that we are the good guys, and the evildoers are punished. As a nation, its our chance to repent.

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