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1/8/2017 8:14:14 PM |
John the Elijah - dispensational confusion/contradiction |
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mindya
Vancouver, BC
64, joined Jan. 2009
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Dispensationalism is a mass of confusion and contradiction.
Dr. Thomas Ice is a writer and promoter of the pre-trib dispensational view - I have a few of his books.
This from his website:
http://www.pre-trib.org/articles/view/elijah-is-coming
I've just picked out parts of the discussion here to show how the dispensationalists twist or ignore scripture that does not fit with their presuppositional "theological" ideology.
Elijah is Coming.
Elijahs Future Ministry:
Malachi clearly teaches that Elijah will make a visit during the tribulation to the nation of Israel (Mal. 4:5). Elijah will be joined by Moses, as the two from the past who appeared at Christs transfiguration (Matt. 17:3). It should be noted that the verse preceding the Elijah prophecy says the following:
Remember the law of Moses My servant, even the statutes and ordinances which I commanded him in Horeb for all Israel (Mal. 4:4). Thus, even in the Malachi prophecy about Elijah coming, Moses is mentioned in the context, which provides support for the notion that Moses is one of the two witnesses in Revelation 11 along with Elijah.
Malachi 4:5-6 foretells of an important role that Elijah will play in relation to the nation of Israel. Such language teaches that Elijah will play a future role during the tribulation in the conversion of the nation of Israel, before the second coming of Christ.
Since Malachi's prophecy makes it clear that Elijah will play a role in end-time events, it is almost certain that this return of Elijah during the tribulation will be as one of the two witnesses spoken of in Revelation 11:3.
Supposition that one of the two witnesses in revelation is Elijah - I suppose John should have named them.
There are some who teach that the ministry of John the Baptist was a fulfillment of the prediction of the coming of Elijah from Malachi 4:5 at Christ's first coming. This is not the case. John the Baptist fulfilled a different prediction, that of Malachi 3:1 and Isaiah 40:3-5.
Yet, John the Baptist was said to be a forerunner, who would come in the spirit and power of Elijah (Lk. 1:17). Christ told His disciples concerning John the Baptist if you care to accept it, he himself is Elijah, who was to come (Matt. 11:14).
But Israel did not accept Jesus as their Messiah at His first coming and therefore the kingdom did not arrive. In fact, when John the Baptist was asked directly, Are you Elijah? He clearly said, I am not (John 1:21). Thus, because of Israel's rejection, John the Baptist was John the Baptist (My messenger) and not Elijah. So Elijah is still to come.
True John never claimed to be Elijah or the Christ.
"Christ told His disciples concerning John the Baptist if you care to accept it, he himself is Elijah, who was to come (Matt. 11:14)"
I guess they could care to not accept it!!
But that is not what Christ claimed further on:
(Mat 17:10 KJV) And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
(Mat 17:11 KJV) And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
(Mat 17:12 KJV) But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
(Mat 17:13 KJV) Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.
But I say unto you, That Elias is come already.
Tommy Ice makes no mention of the above exchange between Jesus and the disciples, I guess hopes his readers will accept at face value his interpretation that the real Elijah has yet to come - the same thinking that the scribes had - "Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?".
The scribes thought that Elijah was to appear literally, but that is not what Jesus stated in Matt 17:10-12 "That Elias is come already"
It is quite clear that Jesus considered the prophecy regarding "Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the Lord. (—Malachi 4:5)" to be figurative and not literal.
He gave no indication or teachings that a literal Elijah would appear in the future to the disciples. There is no second coming of Elijah.
In fact it clear that they understood the John the Baptist was fulfilling the Elijah role:
(Mat 17:13 KJV) Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.
(Mal 3:1 KJV) Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
(Mal 4:5 KJV) Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
Thomas Ice claims that Elijah will appear in the future because John the Baptist did not fulfill the role as per Mal 4:5
Jesus clearly states that John was fulfilling the role of the messenger of Mal 3:1
(Luke 7:27 KJV) This is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face,which shall prepare thy way before thee.
On what basis do dispensationalists differentiate between the messenger in Mal 3:1 and Elijah in Mal 4:5 when Jesus stated "That Elias is come already":
But Israel did not accept Jesus as their Messiah at His first coming and therefore the kingdom did not arrive....
Thus, because of Israel's rejection, John the Baptist was John the Baptist (My messenger) and not Elijah. So Elijah is still to come.
"And not Elijah" - That's quite a leap and contradicts what Jesus stated and just the opposite.
Dispensationalists...pfft..
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1/8/2017 8:54:57 PM |
John the Elijah - dispensational confusion/contradiction |
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isna_la_wica
Brantford, ON
63, joined Mar. 2012
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Funny, I read some stuff about John The Baptist last night in regards to this.
Going to have to try and find it again. Something about Baptism being changed after the ascension. I meant to look it up in better detail , showing that the status of Gods kingdom had changed.
Going to have to try and find it again.
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1/8/2017 8:56:24 PM |
John the Elijah - dispensational confusion/contradiction |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
64, joined Feb. 2008
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St. John the Baptist, pray for us.
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1/8/2017 8:59:28 PM |
John the Elijah - dispensational confusion/contradiction |
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mindya
Vancouver, BC
64, joined Jan. 2009
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Lud this ain't about having saints pray for anybody - stick to the topic.
Funny, I read some stuff about John The Baptist last night in regards to this.
Going to have to try and find it again. Something about Baptism being changed after the ascension. I meant to look it up in better detail , showing that the status of Gods kingdom had changed.
Going to have to try and find it again.
Ok...never heard of this baptismal change - but then maybe..
[Edited 1/8/2017 9:01:07 PM ]
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1/8/2017 9:11:48 PM |
John the Elijah - dispensational confusion/contradiction |
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isna_la_wica
Brantford, ON
63, joined Mar. 2012
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Lud this ain't about having saints pray for anybody - stick to the topic.
Funny, I read some stuff about John The Baptist last night in regards to this.
Going to have to try and find it again. Something about Baptism being changed after the ascension. I meant to look it up in better detail , showing that the status of Gods kingdom had changed.
Going to have to try and find it again.
Ok...never heard of this baptismal change - but then maybe..
Found it, I messed that up for sure.
But there is a lot of other stuff on the eschatology in regards to John the Baptist. You will like it.
the Baptist,
So called after the identifying feature of his ministry. The first announcement of the gospel began and ended with baptism. John came baptizing as a way to prepare men for Christ, and the Lord’s final instruction to his disciples when he ascended into heaven was to continue the work of preaching and baptizing in his name (Matt. 28:19; Mk. 16:15, 16). John’s baptism called men to repentance and to believe on the Messiah to come, but did not evoke any name over the subject. In contrast, Christian baptism evokes the name of Jesus over the subject for remission of sins (Acts 2:38; 8:16; 10:48; 19:5; 22:16). Following Jesus’ ascension, those baptized with the baptism of John were charged to be re-baptized in Jesus’ name (Acts 19:1-5). The word “baptize” is from the Greek baptizw, and means to dip repeatedly, to immerse, submerge; to cleanse by dipping or submerging.[2]Accordingly, the examples of baptism we find in the New Testament involve immersing the repentant believer in water.[3] Precedent for baptism may be found in the Old Testament and its many washings to purify the flesh, but whose real purpose stood as object lessons regarding the holiness of God and man’s defilement from sin. The priests, upon their first consecration to office, and the high priest, before entering into the Holy of Holies, were to wash their flesh in water (Ex. 30:20; 40:12; Lev. 8:6; 16:4); and for defilement associated with the generation of children, men and women were to bathe in water (Lev. 15:5, 21). Naaman, to be cleansed from his leprosy, was told by Elisha to dip himself seven times in the Jordan (II Kng. 5:10, 14). Josephus reports that the Essenes required those who sought entrance into their order to undergo purification by bathing in cold water.[4] But there is no scriptural or period evidence that would allow us to conclude there was a general practice among the Jews, which required the baptism of proselytes for admission into the covenant community.[5] Indeed, the very fact that Josephus mentions the practice among the Essenes shows that it was unique to that sect and not common to the Jews as a whole. Hence, John’s baptism marked the dawn of a new day and the sunset of circumcision as the rite of passage into the assembly of God’s people.
The Eschatology of John the Baptist: Commentary on ... - PreteristCentral
preteristcentral.com/The%20Eschatology%20of%20John%20the%20Baptist%20-%20...
[Edited 1/8/2017 9:12:38 PM ]
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1/8/2017 11:16:24 PM |
John the Elijah - dispensational confusion/contradiction |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
64, joined Feb. 2008
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Funny, I read some stuff about John The Baptist last night in regards to this.
Going to have to try and find it again. Something about Baptism being changed after the ascension. I meant to look it up in better detail , showing that the status of Gods kingdom had changed.
Going to have to try and find it again.
The Catholic Church, for one, teaches that post-ascension Christian Baptism is theologically and fundamentally very different from John's baptism. John's baptism was symbolic only, a baptism of repentance. John did not baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. John's baptism did not wash away sin, but Christian Baptism, as now done, and done since Jesus instructed the apostles to do it that way in the next-to-the-last verse in Matthew, does. John's baptism was by full immersion; in Jesus' Baptism, so long as some water runs down the forehead, that is sufficient. When a person is baptized with Jesus' Baptism, in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, that person is born again, and the Holy Spirit comes to live in that person's soul.
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1/8/2017 11:58:53 PM |
John the Elijah - dispensational confusion/contradiction |
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mindya
Vancouver, BC
64, joined Jan. 2009
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Thomas Ice:
Yet, John the Baptist was said to be a forerunner, who would come in the spirit and power of Elijah
(Luke 1:17 KJV) And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.
This is precisely what Malachi stated "Elijah" would do:
(Mal 4:5 KJV) Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
(Mal 4:6 KJV) And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
T. Ice:
Elijah will come before the great and terrible day of the Lord for the purpose of restoring the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers
Ice is talking in the above about a literal future coming of Elijah.
So what we have is John coming to "to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children" and the literal future Elijah coming "for the purpose of restoring the hearts of the fathers to their children".
A double application?
More like doublespeak
This is dispensational desperation at it's best.
(Isa 40:3 KJV) The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
(Isa 40:4 KJV) Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:
I'm guessing that because John as the voice did not literally landscape the land with a bulldozer that John will have to come again to do some physical landscaping...
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1/9/2017 12:03:10 PM |
John the Elijah - dispensational confusion/contradiction |
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mindya
Vancouver, BC
64, joined Jan. 2009
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(Mal 4:5 KJV) Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
(Acts 2:16 KJV) But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
(Acts 2:17 KJV) And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
(Acts 2:18 KJV) And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
(Acts 2:19 KJV) And I will show wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
(Acts 2:20 KJV) The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
Malachi said that Elijah would appear before the "great and dreadful day of the LORD". We have Peter quoting the prophet Joel before "that great and notable day of the Lord come".
The similar description of these two prophetic days can not be understated of ignored - both are dealing with the same "day".
Peter is stating that Joel's prophecy is "in the last days" would be the when "great and notable day of the Lord (would) come"
Italics my insertion in the above.
The writer of Hebrews tells us the Christ appeared in the "last days":
(Heb 1:2 KJV) Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
John states well after Peter spoke of being in the "last days" that his readers were in the last hour:
1 Jo 2:18 (Young's Literal) Little youths, it is the last hour; and even as ye heard that the antichrist doth come, even now antichrists have become many -- whence we know that it is the last hour.
"Little yutes"...
If the last hour was upon John's readers this is irrefutable evidence that John the "Elijahist" appeared "before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD".
We need not "look for another".
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1/9/2017 10:18:04 PM |
John the Elijah - dispensational confusion/contradiction |
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looptex1
Chatsworth, GA
49, joined Jun. 2008
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I'd say Jesus was pretty clear about the matter.
John was "he that would come"
To keep looking for another is to doubt jesus.
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1/9/2017 11:19:31 PM |
John the Elijah - dispensational confusion/contradiction |
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mindya
Vancouver, BC
64, joined Jan. 2009
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I'd say Jesus was pretty clear about the matter.
John was "he that would come"
To keep looking for another is to doubt jesus.
There is not one mention of Elijah returning after that by Jesus, the apostles or in the letters:
The assumption is that because Elijah prayed for fire from heaven that he is one of the two witnesses of the book of revelation.
(Rev 11:5 KJV) And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
"out of their mouth" is not "heaven" and is more likely figurative of the preaching the word.
(Rev 11:2 KJV) But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
(Rev 11:3 KJV) And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
42 months (2300 days) is precisely the length of the Jewish/Rome war of 66-70 AD
If Elijah is supposedly one of the witnesses who is the other old testament prophet that "brought" down fire from "heaven"?
The idea is built on the flimsiest speculation.
Jesus said John was Elijah:
But I say unto you, That Elias is come already.....Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.
I don't see how it gets any clearer other than it conflicts with a held doctrine built on a
presupposition
noun
a thing tacitly assumed beforehand at the beginning of a line of argument or course of action.
Christ is described as "out of his mouth went a sharp two edged sword"
(Rev 1:16 KJV) And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp two edged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
(Heb 4:12 KJV) For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
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2/3/2017 8:51:13 AM |
John the Elijah - dispensational confusion/contradiction |
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cupocheer
Assumption, IL
68, joined May. 2010
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2/5/2017 5:26:45 PM |
John the Elijah - dispensational confusion/contradiction |
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mindya
Vancouver, BC
64, joined Jan. 2009
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5/30/2017 9:06:09 AM |
John the Elijah - dispensational confusion/contradiction |
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cupocheer
Assumption, IL
68, joined May. 2010
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(this post has been flagged as inappropriate, sorry.)
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