So Many Ancient Manuscripts

3/11/2017 12:22:02 PM	So Many Ancient Manuscripts
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 64, joined Feb. 2008	"The Bible is the sole rule of faith," Protestants insist. "Oh, just look it up in the Bible," they say. "Check the plain words of scripture." But which Bible? Translated from which ancient Greek manuscript? There are all kinds of ancient Greek manuscripts still extant (no originals), and these manuscripts are all different. Some say one thing, others something else. Which are the true ones, which ones not? How do translators handle this problem? Some, if they come across a passage that is different in the ancient manuscripts, will go by whatever the majority of the manuscripts say, which poses a problem---St. Jerome and other ancient translators had manuscripts not available to modern translators, and vice versa. Other translators just ho by their personal beliefs---if they believe in the Trinity and the divinity of Christ, for instance, they will gravitate to the manuscripts that emphasize these doctrines, and if they don't believe, they will look for manuscripts that support their point of view. "I just go by the Bible" begs the question which Bible, which translation. Since only a few of us can be scholars of ancient Greek, and since even the scholars vehemently disagree with each other, what is the ordinary Christian to do? "Oh, the Holy Spirit tells me what it means," it is often said. Okay, why then are there thousands of denominations, each one claiming to be guided by the Holy Spirit, each one teaching something different from the one down the street. Jesus knew all this would happen (all time is present to God, and Jesus is God), and Jesus did not want to leave us orphans, so Jesus established His Church, the Catholic Church, and gave the Church infallible teaching authority, so we could know what various passages from the Bible mean, and not have to guess, and not have to play amateur ancient Greek scholar. And down through the centuries, the remarkable thing is that the Church never changes her core teachings. While Protestant denominations change to fit ever-changing public opinion (they used to say racism and slavery were okay but contraception wasn't, now they say just the opposite), the core teachings of the Catholic Church, teachings about God, Jesus, the Trinity, Mary, the papacy, the Church, the Mass, the Eucharist, the saints, Confession, Purgatory, the moral code---these are the same in the first century, the third century, the eighth century, the seventeenth century, the twenty-first century, all centuries. No, not every Catholic in history has been perfect. Not every priest has been perfect. Not even every pope has been perfect, not even the first pope. But the TEACHINGS of the Catholic Church ARE perfect, and they stay the same, century after century. Meet singles at DateHookup.dating, we're 100% free! Join now!
3/11/2017 12:48:32 PM	So Many Ancient Manuscripts
cupocheer Assumption, IL 68, joined May. 2010	I gotta pee!
3/11/2017 12:56:37 PM	So Many Ancient Manuscripts
karrpilot Oswego, IL 53, joined Jul. 2009	And so little time. I guess I don't have that problem. Working 50 hours a week, and then getting called in on the weekend will do that to a guy. Try it sometime.
3/11/2017 1:11:54 PM	So Many Ancient Manuscripts
kb2222 Jacksonville, FL 76, joined Apr. 2011	Practically everything you said is a lie, Ludlow. Jesus didn't found the Catholic church and He didn't make popes infallible teachers which any fool should be able to see for it was dozens of popes who taught that it was righteous and just to torture and burn to death at the stake untold thousands of their brethren calling them witches and heretics for a THOUSAND years for as you say because they wouldn't accept the "peace and love" of the Catholic church. Jesus didn't instruct His followers to unquestionably accept any book later compiled by the RCC. Indeed, Jesus sent into the world the Holy Spirit of truth, the spirit of the son as His REPLACEMENT TEACHER WHICH YOU AND THOSE LIKE YOU REJECT when the voice that speaks within conflicts with church dogma about the book they compiled. And that is exactly why you so-called Christians to this day PRETEND not to know it is horrible inhuman wickedness to stone and burn your brethren to death at the stake if they don't agree with you. You don't know as you claim that Jesus "sends thousands of people to Hell every day without batting an eye" Ludlow. You don't know or don't care whether actions are righteous or wicked as long as they are attributed to God/Jesus in the book the church compiled. For you and your corrupt church to still be teaching that it was righteous and just to stone and burn people to death at the stake for all those absurd reasons and that is what Jesus ordered man to do is nothing but sick inexcusable blasphemous satanic teaching and its utterly despicable that you and your historically murderous Catholic church continue to do so unashamedly. You do Satan's work of deceiving your brethren, Ludlow, and it appears you are incorrigible.
3/11/2017 2:14:12 PM	So Many Ancient Manuscripts
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 64, joined Feb. 2008	The Holy Spirit leads all to the Catholic Church. Listen to him.
3/11/2017 7:03:02 PM	So Many Ancient Manuscripts
kb2222 Jacksonville, FL 76, joined Apr. 2011	What a sick perverted liar you are.
3/11/2017 8:54:19 PM	So Many Ancient Manuscripts
slowpoke7 Hendersonville, TN 76, joined Feb. 2011
3/11/2017 9:09:13 PM	So Many Ancient Manuscripts
share_n_love Fort Wayne, IN 61, joined Dec. 2012	Quote from ludlowlowell: The Holy Spirit leads all to the Catholic Church. Listen to him. .....but .
3/13/2017 5:56:01 PM	So Many Ancient Manuscripts
kb2222 Jacksonville, FL 76, joined Apr. 2011	Quote from kb2222: Practically everything you said is a lie, Ludlow. Jesus didn't found the Catholic church and He didn't make popes infallible teachers which any fool should be able to see for it was dozens of popes who taught that it was righteous and just to torture and burn to death at the stake untold thousands of their brethren calling them witches and heretics for a THOUSAND years for as you say because they wouldn't accept the "peace and love" of the Catholic church. Jesus didn't instruct His followers to unquestionably accept any book later compiled by the RCC. Indeed, Jesus sent into the world the Holy Spirit of truth, the spirit of the son as His REPLACEMENT TEACHER WHICH YOU AND THOSE LIKE YOU REJECT when the voice that speaks within conflicts with church dogma about the book they compiled. And that is exactly why you so-called Christians to this day PRETEND not to know it is horrible inhuman wickedness to stone and burn your brethren to death at the stake if they don't agree with you. You don't know as you claim that Jesus "sends thousands of people to Hell every day without batting an eye" Ludlow. You don't know or don't care whether actions are righteous or wicked as long as they are attributed to God/Jesus in the book the church compiled. For you and your corrupt church to still be teaching that it was righteous and just to stone and burn people to death at the stake for all those absurd reasons and that is what Jesus ordered man to do is nothing but sick inexcusable blasphemous satanic teaching and its utterly despicable that you and your historically murderous Catholic church continue to do so unashamedly. You do Satan's work of deceiving your brethren, Ludlow, and it appears you are incorrigible. Quote from Ludlow: The Holy Spirit leads all to the Catholic Church. Listen to him. You are so corrupt you can't honestly respond to what I say, Ludlow. All you can do is post another short dismissive distraction. What a perverted sick man you are.
3/13/2017 7:31:00 PM	So Many Ancient Manuscripts
isna_la_wica Brantford, ON 63, joined Mar. 2012	How do translators handle this problem? Some, if they come across a passage that is different in the ancient manuscripts, will go by whatever the majority of the manuscripts say, which poses a problem---St. Jerome and other ancient translators had manuscripts not available to modern translators, and vice versa. Other translators just ho by their personal beliefs---if they believe in the Trinity and the divinity of Christ, for instance, they will gravitate to the manuscripts that emphasize these doctrines, and if they don't believe, they will look for manuscripts that support their point of view. Augustine made a similar argument to Jerome as you are making. He was quite up set, that Jerome thought it was important to do a better translation and was working on one based on Hebrew rather than the Greek. Correspondence of Augustine and Jerome concerning the Latin Translation of the Bible An interesting episode in the history of Bible translation was the exchange of letters between Augustine (Bishop of Hippo) and Jerome, concerning Jerome's new Latin translation of the Old Testament. Up to that time all Latin versions had been based upon the Greek version (called the translation of "the Seventy" or the Septuagint). But Augustine had learned that Jerome was now making a translation from the Hebrew, which differed in many places from the Septuagint. (Jerome had previously translated from the Septuagint, but after 390 he began to translate direct from the Hebrew. See the history of Jerome's work in the article by S. Angus on this site). Augustine calls upon Jerome to justify this departure from the customary text, tells of a disturbance which has arisen on this account, and urges him to reconsider. Jerome replies with characteristic vigor. Correspondence of Augustine and Jerome concerning the Latin ... www.bible-researcher.com › Ancient Versions › Latin Their correspondence is an interesting read, check out their letters at that site. Jerome him self, would disagree with you Lud. "The Scriptures are shallow enough for a babe to come and drink without fear of drowning and deep enough for theologians to swim in without ever reaching the bottom'. St. Jerome It is important to me. But unlike so many, do not believe these modern day prophets. So am quite happy, swimming down and down even if I never reach bottom.
3/13/2017 8:02:44 PM	So Many Ancient Manuscripts
indianadave1951 Mishawaka, IN 66, joined Dec. 2010	When a Old Testament scribe or priest would copy the scriptures there were a number of rules that he had to follow: 1. He had to have an open scroll of the book he's copying. 2. He reads one line at a time then writes it down pronouncing it as he wrote. 3. He rereads the original scroll and then reads the new copy. 4. He then counts how many words the original sentence/phrase had and counts what he copied (the numbers have to match) 5. When finished with a particular scroll he recruits three other scribes to check his work. 6. When writing Jahweh's name he: a. Empties and cleans the writing utensil b. He washes his hands c. Picks up the cleaned "pen" and proceeds 7. If a mistake is made in writing a word he lets it dry, removes the original ink and rewrites the word. 8. If he mis-writes Yahweh's name he is not allowed to erase his name. The entire scroll is taken out and buried. He starts over. 9. The same combination of chemicals are used to make the ink. These are the major rules for the old testament. Making a change would be near impossible with the above rules. Though the New Testament writers understood these practices I'm sure when copying the New Testament writings some of the same practices were incorporated. [Edited 3/13/2017 8:04:00 PM ]
3/13/2017 8:21:27 PM	So Many Ancient Manuscripts
cupocheer Assumption, IL 68, joined May. 2010	Thank you, Dave. If I may supplement your wonderful post.... this scribes were soooooo meticulous they even had the same number of letters and words on the same lines, and same number of lines as the original antiquity they were working from. Thank you for sharing your info.
3/13/2017 9:38:47 PM	So Many Ancient Manuscripts
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 64, joined Feb. 2008	Isna, if St. Jerome said that,I do indeed disagree with him. The scriptures are not shallow, they are very deep, sometimes with all kinds of subtle meanings. Quite often, because a person lacks knowledge of one book of the Bible, that person misunderstands something that he reads in another book. Peter speaks of unlearned and unstable people wresting with scriptures to their destruction. The scriptures are not always clear. We are in dire need of the teaching authority ("magisterium") of the Church. "Oh, I just read the scripture and the Holy Spirit tells me what it means" does not work. This absurdity, a total misunderstanding of what the Holy Spirit does, has resulted in modern Protestantism---thousands of denominations, each teaching something different than the next one, each one teaching something different as soon as the church changes pastors. Solid faith becomes impossible---all the Christian is left with is a collection of human opinions, either his or his pastor's.
3/13/2017 10:08:38 PM	So Many Ancient Manuscripts
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 64, joined Feb. 2008	Dave, I did not know about those safeguards, but even with those safeguards copiers made errors, some deliberate, probably most not. Copiers were only human. We know this because hundreds of ancient manuscripts of scripture, both testaments, exist, but no two are exactly alike. "Oh, the [fill in the blank] translation is the only translation I EVER use! It was translated directly from the Greek or Hebrew manuscripts!" Since there are so many of them, and since they are all at least slightly, and in some cases very, different from each other, this statement doesn't mean much. Jesus knew this would happen. That's why He founded His Church and its teaching authority, so we could know things for sure, instead of having to guess.
3/14/2017 9:53:17 AM	So Many Ancient Manuscripts
kb2222 Jacksonville, FL 76, joined Apr. 2011	Quote from ludlowlowell: Jesus knew this would happen. That's why He founded His Church and its teaching authority, so we could know things for sure, instead of having to guess. Jesus didn't found the Catholic church and He didn't make popes infallible teachers which any fool should be able to see for it was dozens of popes who taught that it was righteous and just to torture and burn to death at the stake untold thousands of their brethren calling them witches and heretics for a THOUSAND years for as you say because they wouldn't accept the "peace and love" of the Catholic church. Jesus didn't instruct His followers to unquestionably accept any book later compiled by the RCC. Indeed, Jesus sent into the world the Holy Spirit of truth, the spirit of the son as His REPLACEMENT TEACHER WHICH YOU AND THOSE LIKE YOU REJECT when the voice that speaks within conflicts with church dogma about the book they compiled. And that is exactly why you so-called Christians to this day PRETEND not to know it is horrible inhuman wickedness to stone and burn your brethren to death at the stake if they don't agree with you. You don't know as you claim that Jesus "sends thousands of people to Hell every day without batting an eye" Ludlow. You don't know or don't care whether actions are righteous or wicked as long as they are attributed to God/Jesus in the book the church compiled. For you and your corrupt church to still be teaching that it was righteous and just to stone and burn people to death at the stake for all those absurd reasons and that is what Jesus ordered man to do is nothing but sick inexcusable blasphemous satanic teaching and its utterly despicable that you and your historically murderous Catholic church continue to do so unashamedly. You do Satan's work of deceiving your brethren, Ludlow.
3/14/2017 10:42:49 AM	So Many Ancient Manuscripts
cupocheer Assumption, IL 68, joined May. 2010	"the fill-in version" the 'fill-in' word doesn't change the meaning, at all, of the sentence or verse in which it is presented --- any of the 8 times it is used.
3/14/2017 11:16:20 AM	So Many Ancient Manuscripts
freegratis Irving, TX 50, joined Dec. 2011	Lud, This topic starts with a valid point. Which text can we trust? But does your favorite text, even recommended by the Vatican include 1 Timothy 4? NKJV Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; 3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. Do you know of any religious group which forbids to marry and commands to abstain from meats? I meant to ask you this for the first Friday after Ash Wednesday. But you have a few more Fridays to ponder this question. Maybe you will tell me "this changed" and it is not commanded anymore? So much for the unchangeable teachings of RCC? Here it is on the Vatican website: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__P112.HTM They forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.
3/14/2017 1:01:09 PM	So Many Ancient Manuscripts
isna_la_wica Brantford, ON 63, joined Mar. 2012	The scriptures are not always clear. We are in dire need of the teaching authority ("magisterium") of the Church. "Oh, I just read the scripture and the Holy Spirit tells me what it means" does not work. This absurdity, a total misunderstanding of what the Holy Spirit does, has resulted in modern Protestantism---thousands of denominations, each teaching something different than the next one, each one teaching something different as soon as the church changes pastors. Solid faith becomes impossible---all the Christian is left with is a collection of human opinions, either his or his pastor's. Every body thinks Scripture is not enough now days. Half the denominations have to get Psychic help, oh, they call them "prophets". The Mormons, SDA and hundreds of Pentecostals claim to be, "modern day prophets". Watched a video this week that showed Copeland and some other sign and wonder guy, where they both claim God talks to them on their air planes. And you are no different lud, you claim Catherine Emerich is a "prophet". No thanks, I do not require Psychics , signs and wonders or lightning from heaven writing in the sky. I take advice for sure. I spend a lot of time reading the early church fathers, CS Lewis and lately NT Wright. This is what I find is strange though. They know Scripture, but do not claim to be magic, Psychics or prophets. But the ones that do not know Scripture, in fact like EG White etc? Have a terrible grasp of scripture. Well knock your self out Lud. But you better be advised, its up to you to "test" your choice of guru or "prophet". And you do that by? Using scripture . 1 John 4:1 ? New International Version Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
3/14/2017 1:41:14 PM	So Many Ancient Manuscripts
kb2222 Jacksonville, FL 76, joined Apr. 2011	Jesus didn't found the Catholic church and He didn't make popes infallible teachers which any sane person should be able to see for it was dozens of popes who taught that it was righteous and just to torture and burn to death at the stake untold thousands of their brethren calling them witches and heretics for a THOUSAND years.. AND Jesus didn't instruct His followers to unquestionably accept any book later compiled by the RCC. Indeed, Jesus sent into the world the Holy Spirit of truth, the spirit of the son as His REPLACEMENT TEACHER which you "Christians" ignore when the voice that speaks within conflicts with church dogma about the book they compiled. And this is exactly why you so-called Christians to this day PRETEND not to know it is horrible inhuman wickedness to stone and burn your brethren to death at the stake if they don't agree with you. The teachings of the church bind the mind of man to the book the church compiled and proclaimed to be all Gods inspired inerrant word/truth no matter what it says or what Jesus taught. Jesus revealed Gods true loving and caring nature and it should be obvious to all God/Jesus loving and sane people on this site that it is inhumane wickedness to stone and burn people to death at the stake for all sorts of absurd reasons and to slaughter men, women, children, infants and even animals in the name of God. That's not the nature of God that Jesus came into the world and revealed and if you professed Christians can't accept what Jesus revealed you most certainly are NOT His true followers. Christians should be striving to believe as Jesus believed and thus to become more like Him and this cannot be done without rejecting all scripture that is incompatible with His teachings. So long as you professed "Christians" accept the false church doctrine of the perfection of scripture you will remain morally confused and spiritually stagnant.
3/14/2017 5:53:10 PM	So Many Ancient Manuscripts
indianadave1951 Mishawaka, IN 66, joined Dec. 2010	Quote from ludlowlowell: Dave, I did not know about those safeguards, but even with those safeguards copiers made errors, some deliberate, probably most not. Copiers were only human. We know this because hundreds of ancient manuscripts of scripture, both testaments, exist, but no two are exactly alike. The Old Testament that we have to day when compared to the Dead Sea Scrolls are almost word for word. Jesus said that man should live not by bread along but every word that proceeds for the Father, not the Catholic Church. From your comment it seems you're undermining the scriptures and replacing them with the teachings of men in the Catholic Church. This undermines the scripture and allows men to devise whatever types of teaching they want. The very "Scriptures" that you've claimed the Catholic Church assembled they are now claiming can't be trusted and only Roman Catholic doctrine is accurate. This is the main reason what Catholics call Protestants broke away under Martin Luther. Jesus said to build our house on the Rock (Word of God) and not on the sand. The Bible is the bedrock of Christianity. To undermine this is opening up ones self to false teaching.
3/14/2017 6:15:48 PM	So Many Ancient Manuscripts
cupocheer Assumption, IL 68, joined May. 2010	Thank you, Dave. And the choir says Amen!
3/14/2017 6:44:36 PM	So Many Ancient Manuscripts
kb2222 Jacksonville, FL 76, joined Apr. 2011	indianadave1951, what are your thoughts to my post just above yours?
3/14/2017 9:05:42 PM	So Many Ancient Manuscripts
indianadave1951 Mishawaka, IN 66, joined Dec. 2010	Quote from kb2222: indianadave1951, what are your thoughts to my post just above yours? The RCC, in it's present form, didn't begin to develop until after Constantine took over. The early Church fathers (before 300 AD) used the writings of Jesus and the Apostles as direction. I've heard it said that if one was a christian before 300 AD one could be put to dead for beleiving. After 400 AD one could be executed for NOT being part of the church. This is sad because under the New Covenant God never gave the right to persecute unbelievers. In fact Jesus said to be "LIGHT" not an executioner. Down through the centuries all christians are accused of what the early RCC began. God alone is the judge.
3/15/2017 12:33:19 AM	So Many Ancient Manuscripts
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 64, joined Feb. 2008	The RCC still has the form Jesus gave it when He founded it---it has, then and now, a pope, bisops, priests, the Mass, the Holy Eucharist, Confession, prayers to the saints, and Purgatory.
3/15/2017 10:11:42 AM	So Many Ancient Manuscripts
freegratis Irving, TX 50, joined Dec. 2011	Quote from ludlowlowell: The RCC still has the form Jesus gave it when He founded it---it has, then and now, a pope, bisops, priests, the Mass, the Holy Eucharist, Confession, prayers to the saints, and Purgatory. 1 Timothy 4 NKJV 1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; 3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. What group does this? The RCC. Ask any RCC "priest" on a Friday during Lent.
3/15/2017 11:14:27 AM	So Many Ancient Manuscripts
kb2222 Jacksonville, FL 76, joined Apr. 2011	Quote from kb2222: indianadave1951, what are your thoughts to my post just above yours? Quote from indianadave1951: The RCC, in it's present form, didn't begin to develop until after Constantine took over. The early Church fathers (before 300 AD) used the writings of Jesus and the Apostles as direction. I've heard it said that if one was a christian before 300 AD one could be put to dead for beleiving. After 400 AD one could be executed for NOT being part of the church. This is sad because under the New Covenant God never gave the right to persecute unbelievers. In fact Jesus said to be "LIGHT" not an executioner. Down through the centuries all christians are accused of what the early RCC began. God alone is the judge. Really, indianadave, that's hardly a response to what I said in my post. You can do better than that, can't you? Let's have a serious, frank and honest response. Quote and respond. [Edited 3/15/2017 11:15:34 AM ]
3/15/2017 12:58:08 PM	So Many Ancient Manuscripts
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 64, joined Feb. 2008	Quote from freegratis: 1 Timothy 4 NKJV 1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; 3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. What group does this? The RCC. Ask any RCC "priest" on a Friday during Lent. Protestants teach doctrines of devils. This is not to say Protestants are devils, or even that Protestant ministers are devils, but some of the doctrines they preach are from the devil. Take once-saved-always-saved----that utterly nonsensical, non-biblical doctrine is nothing but a license to sin. No doubt the devil rubs his hands and licks his chops whenever he hears that doctrine preached. "Forbidding to marry, to abstain from meats..." (1 Timothy 4:3)----I quote what the Challoner notes to that verse say (the Catholic Douay Rheims version of the Bible has "Challoner notes"---a Father Challoner centuries ago wrote commentary on different passages, and they are in footnote form in Douay Rheims Bibles): "He [St. Paul] speaks of the Gnostics, the Marcionites, the Encratites, the Manichaens, and other ancient heretics, who absolutelt condemned marriage,and the use of all kinds of meat; because they pretended that all flesh was from an evil principle. Whereas the church of God, so far from condemning marriage, holds it a holy sacrament; and forbids it to none but such as by vow have chosen the better part: and prohibits not the use of meats whatsoever in proper times and seasons; though she does not judge all kind of diet proper for days of fasting and penance." Jesus never married, and Jesus went into the desert and ate no meat or other food for forty days. Did Jesus violate 1 Timothy 4:3? By the way, neither 1 Timothy nor any other book would be in the Bible had the Catholic Church not put it there at the Council of Hippo.
3/15/2017 2:12:46 PM	So Many Ancient Manuscripts
cupocheer Assumption, IL 68, joined May. 2010	Actually, what (Saul) Paul was teaching Timothy was 'Gossip' not biblical truth. Isn't that the truth, LUD?
3/15/2017 3:06:51 PM	So Many Ancient Manuscripts
a_nubian Columbus, OH 53, joined Jan. 2011	Lud you push the idea that it was the Catholic church that put together the bible and yet from a secular source that I am going to post; it was the Catholic church that kept the bible out of the hands of the common people. Highlights: Why Christians Were Denied Access to Their Bible for 1,000 Years The Council of Nicaea called by the Emperor Constantine met in 325 C.E. to establish a unified Catholic Church. At that point no universally sanctioned Scriptures or Christian Bible existed. Various churches and officials adopted different texts and gospels. That’s why the Council of Hippo sanctioned 27 books for the New Testament in 393 C.E. Four years later the Council of Cartage confirmed the same 27 books as the authoritative Scriptures of the Church. Wouldn’t you assume that the newly established Church would want its devotees to immerse themselves in the sanctioned New Testament, especially since the Church went to great lengths to eliminate competing Gospels? And wouldn’t the best way of spreading the “good news” be to ensure that every Christian had direct access to the Bible? That’s not what happened. The Church actually discouraged the populace from reading the Bible on their own — a policy that intensified through the Middle Ages and later, with the addition of a prohibition forbidding translation of the Bible into native languages. Decree of the Council of Toulouse (1229 C.E.): “We prohibit also that the laity should be permitted to have the books of the Old or New Testament; but we most strictly forbid their having any translation of these books.” Ruling of the Council of Tarragona of 1234 C.E.: “No one may possess the books of the Old and New Testaments in the Romance language, and if anyone possesses them he must turn them over to the local bishop within eight days after promulgation of this decree, so that they may be burned...” Proclamations at the Ecumenical Council of Constance in 1415 C.E.: Oxford professor, and theologian John Wycliffe, was the first (1380 C.E.) to translate the New Testament into English to “...helpeth Christian men to study the Gospel in that tongue in which they know best Christ’s sentence.” For this “heresy” Wycliffe was posthumously condemned by Arundel, the archbishop of Canterbury. By the Council’s decree “Wycliffe’s bones were exhumed and publicly burned and the ashes were thrown into the Swift River.” Fate of William Tyndale in 1536 C.E.: William Tyndale was burned at the stake for translating the Bible into English. According to Tyndale, the Church forbid owning or reading the Bible to control and restrict the teachings and to enhance their own power and importance. Link to full article: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bernard-starr/why-christians-were-denied-access-to-their-bible-for-1000-years_b_3303545.html The article points out ancient Israel read the scripture to their people so all knew what was being said.
3/15/2017 4:54:25 PM	So Many Ancient Manuscripts
_ladybug_ Paragould, AR 66, joined Sep. 2013	Quote from indianadave1951: When a Old Testament scribe or priest would copy the scriptures there were a number of rules that he had to follow: 1. He had to have an open scroll of the book he's copying. 2. He reads one line at a time then writes it down pronouncing it as he wrote. 3. He rereads the original scroll and then reads the new copy. 4. He then counts how many words the original sentence/phrase had and counts what he copied (the numbers have to match) 5. When finished with a particular scroll he recruits three other scribes to check his work. 6. When writing Jahweh's name he: a. Empties and cleans the writing utensil b. He washes his hands c. Picks up the cleaned "pen" and proceeds 7. If a mistake is made in writing a word he lets it dry, removes the original ink and rewrites the word. 8. If he mis-writes Yahweh's name he is not allowed to erase his name. The entire scroll is taken out and buried. He starts over. 9. The same combination of chemicals are used to make the ink. These are the major rules for the old testament. Making a change would be near impossible with the above rules. Though the New Testament writers understood these practices I'm sure when copying the New Testament writings some of the same practices were incorporated. Very strict guidelines which is good. And also under the watchful eyes and guidance of God!
3/15/2017 5:11:53 PM	So Many Ancient Manuscripts
kb2222 Jacksonville, FL 76, joined Apr. 2011	I would be willing to bet Ludlow already knew what you posted a_nubian but like the brainwashed corrupt Catholic he has made of himself he continues on to deceive his brethren with his false claims. No one who lies, bears false witness and makes false claims as much as Ludlow does can be rightly said to be serving God. Ludlow serves a corrupt, historically murderous, self-serving, blasphemous, Catholic church NOT GOD.
3/15/2017 5:44:23 PM	So Many Ancient Manuscripts
_ladybug_ Paragould, AR 66, joined Sep. 2013	Quote from a_nubian: Lud you push the idea that it was the Catholic church that put together the bible and yet from a secular source that I am going to post; it was the Catholic church that kept the bible out of the hands of the common people. Highlights: Why Christians Were Denied Access to Their Bible for 1,000 Years The Council of Nicaea called by the Emperor Constantine met in 325 C.E. to establish a unified Catholic Church. At that point no universally sanctioned Scriptures or Christian Bible existed. Various churches and officials adopted different texts and gospels. That’s why the Council of Hippo sanctioned 27 books for the New Testament in 393 C.E. Four years later the Council of Cartage confirmed the same 27 books as the authoritative Scriptures of the Church. Wouldn’t you assume that the newly established Church would want its devotees to immerse themselves in the sanctioned New Testament, especially since the Church went to great lengths to eliminate competing Gospels? And wouldn’t the best way of spreading the “good news” be to ensure that every Christian had direct access to the Bible? That’s not what happened. The Church actually discouraged the populace from reading the Bible on their own — a policy that intensified through the Middle Ages and later, with the addition of a prohibition forbidding translation of the Bible into native languages. Decree of the Council of Toulouse (1229 C.E.): “We prohibit also that the laity should be permitted to have the books of the Old or New Testament; but we most strictly forbid their having any translation of these books.” Ruling of the Council of Tarragona of 1234 C.E.: “No one may possess the books of the Old and New Testaments in the Romance language, and if anyone possesses them he must turn them over to the local bishop within eight days after promulgation of this decree, so that they may be burned...” Proclamations at the Ecumenical Council of Constance in 1415 C.E.: Oxford professor, and theologian John Wycliffe, was the first (1380 C.E.) to translate the New Testament into English to “...helpeth Christian men to study the Gospel in that tongue in which they know best Christ’s sentence.” For this “heresy” Wycliffe was posthumously condemned by Arundel, the archbishop of Canterbury. By the Council’s decree “Wycliffe’s bones were exhumed and publicly burned and the ashes were thrown into the Swift River.” Fate of William Tyndale in 1536 C.E.: William Tyndale was burned at the stake for translating the Bible into English. According to Tyndale, the Church forbid owning or reading the Bible to control and restrict the teachings and to enhance their own power and importance. Link to full article: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bernard-starr/why-christians-were-denied-access-to-their-bible-for-1000-years_b_3303545.html The article points out ancient Israel read the scripture to their people so all knew what was being said. Excellent "truthful" article Nubian! Keeping in mind, this was the Catholic Bible the RCC had, NOT the Truthful Holy Bible. A BIG difference between the two!! [Edited 3/15/2017 5:47:02 PM ]
3/15/2017 5:54:39 PM	So Many Ancient Manuscripts
slowpoke7 Hendersonville, TN 76, joined Feb. 2011
3/15/2017 7:32:22 PM	So Many Ancient Manuscripts
a_nubian Columbus, OH 53, joined Jan. 2011	Quote from kb2222: I would be willing to bet Ludlow already knew what you posted a_nubian but like the brainwashed corrupt Catholic he has made of himself he continues on to deceive his brethren with his false claims. No one who lies, bears false witness and makes false claims as much as Ludlow does can be rightly said to be serving God. Ludlow serves a corrupt, historically murderous, self-serving, blasphemous, Catholic church NOT GOD. To me, it's up to a person to decide for themselves. By denying access to information e.g. scripture; you can control the masses.
3/15/2017 7:40:38 PM	So Many Ancient Manuscripts
kb2222 Jacksonville, FL 76, joined Apr. 2011	Quote from a_nubian: To me, it's up to a person to decide for themselves. By denying access to information e.g. scripture; you can control the masses. And you can control the masses when you claim infallibility and proclaim everything in the book you compiled is Gods Holy inspired inerrant word no matter what it says or what Jesus taught or even mankind's evolved (spirit induced) sense of morality.
3/15/2017 8:10:21 PM	So Many Ancient Manuscripts
_ladybug_ Paragould, AR 66, joined Sep. 2013	Quote from slowpoke7: Yes! Thank you Jesus! Amen and AMEN!!
3/15/2017 10:26:46 PM	So Many Ancient Manuscripts
cupocheer Assumption, IL 68, joined May. 2010
3/16/2017 4:57:58 AM	So Many Ancient Manuscripts
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 64, joined Feb. 2008	Tyndale was burned at the stake, not for translating the Bible into English, but gor badly mistranslating it to fit his own heretical man-made doctrines. The Catholic Church, in the Mass, has Bible readings, and if a person went to daily Mass every day for three years, he would have heard the entire Bible read. I'm thinking about going to daily Mass myself this morning.
3/16/2017 8:30:23 AM	So Many Ancient Manuscripts
a_nubian Columbus, OH 53, joined Jan. 2011	Quote from ludlowlowell: Tyndale was burned at the stake, not for translating the Bible into English, but gor badly mistranslating it to fit his own heretical man-made doctrines. The Catholic Church, in the Mass, has Bible readings, and if a person went to daily Mass every day for three years, he would have heard the entire Bible read. I'm thinking about going to daily Mass myself this morning. And Mass was often done in Latin and not in their native language. Consequently, they got nothing out of it.
3/16/2017 9:00:05 AM	So Many Ancient Manuscripts
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 64, joined Feb. 2008	If you would attend a Latin Mass, or watch one on youtube, you would see that the Bible readings and sermon are in the language of the people. Also, in the pews, are printed translations.
3/16/2017 1:21:05 PM	So Many Ancient Manuscripts
a_nubian Columbus, OH 53, joined Jan. 2011	Quote from ludlowlowell: If you would attend a Latin Mass, or watch one on youtube, you would see that the Bible readings and sermon are in the language of the people. Also, in the pews, are printed translations. No Lud at the time during the Dark Ages... The Mass was conducted in Latin. Therefore someone who lived in Germany who did not know Latin would get nothing out of the readings. I am not speaking of present day. [Edited 3/16/2017 1:21:40 PM ]
3/16/2017 2:16:32 PM	So Many Ancient Manuscripts
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 64, joined Feb. 2008	At every time in history, with the Latin Mass, the sermon, and usually the Bible readings also, were in the language of tge people. Only the liturgical prayers (the opening prayers, the confireor, the offerering, the consecration, the final blessing, and other liturgical prayers) were in Latin. Also, people who attend Latin Masses on a regular basis tend to.learn a lot of Latin. Also, in Italy, Spain, France, Portugal, and Latin America, Latin is so close to the native language that most people can understand most of what is said in Latin.
3/16/2017 3:09:40 PM	So Many Ancient Manuscripts
a_nubian Columbus, OH 53, joined Jan. 2011	Quote from ludlowlowell: At every time in history, with the Latin Mass, the sermon, and usually the Bible readings also, were in the language of tge people. Only the liturgical prayers (the opening prayers, the confireor, the offerering, the consecration, the final blessing, and other liturgical prayers) were in Latin. Also, people who attend Latin Masses on a regular basis tend to.learn a lot of Latin. Also, in Italy, Spain, France, Portugal, and Latin America, Latin is so close to the native language that most people can understand most of what is said in Latin. Well the main point I made was the fact that your church refuse/denied the laity access to scripture. And many lost their lives if they had scripture in possession. I posted the article that had those sources.
3/16/2017 3:17:34 PM	So Many Ancient Manuscripts
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 64, joined Feb. 2008	Prior to 1450 Bibles had to be hand copied and were very expensive, kind of like Cadillacs today. Also, most people could not read---in the Middle Ages most people were illiterate. By neccisity most people learned about God and Nesus by attending Mass or attending religious instruction classes. And the Church did not ban people from owning Bibles, if they could afford them---only mistranslsted or heretical Bibles, such as Tyndale's.
3/16/2017 3:26:39 PM	So Many Ancient Manuscripts
cupocheer Assumption, IL 68, joined May. 2010	Quote from ludlowlowell: Prior to 1450 Bibles had to be hand copied and were very expensive, kind of like Cadillacs today. Also, most people could not read---in the Middle Ages most people were illiterate. By neccisity most people learned about God and Nesus by attending Mass or attending religious instruction classes. And the Church did not ban people from owning Bibles, if they could afford them---only mistranslsted or heretical Bibles, such as Tyndale's. See your problem, LUD?
3/16/2017 3:48:11 PM	So Many Ancient Manuscripts
kb2222 Jacksonville, FL 76, joined Apr. 2011	Quote from kb2222: And you can control the masses when you claim infallibility and proclaim everything in the book you compiled is Gods Holy inspired inerrant word no matter what it says or what Jesus taught or even mankind's evolved (spirit induced) sense of morality.
3/16/2017 10:15:33 PM	So Many Ancient Manuscripts
cupocheer Assumption, IL 68, joined May. 2010	*Get Ready*
5/30/2017 8:52:29 AM	So Many Ancient Manuscripts
cupocheer Assumption, IL 68, joined May. 2010

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