Abraham, Issac and Jacob

3/30/2017 8:38:47 PM	Abraham, Issac and Jacob
indianadave1951 Mishawaka, IN 66, joined Dec. 2010	In the Old Testament the great patriarchs are Abraham, Issac and Jacob. After Jacob wrestled with the Angel of God his name was changed to Israel. Yet, throughout the Old Testament Jacob is seldom called Israel but referred to as Jacob. Any ideas why? Meet singles at DateHookup.dating, we're 100% free! Join now!
3/30/2017 8:46:00 PM	Abraham, Issac and Jacob
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 64, joined Feb. 2008	That is a curious one. After Abram became Abraham, or Simon became Peter, or Saul became Paul, the former names seemed to have slipped away, but not with Jacob/Israel.
3/30/2017 11:37:31 PM	Abraham, Issac and Jacob
indianadave1951 Mishawaka, IN 66, joined Dec. 2010	Quote from ludlowlowell: That is a curious one. After Abram became Abraham, or Simon became Peter, or Saul became Paul, the former names seemed to have slipped away, but not with Jacob/Israel. My question is why?
3/30/2017 11:44:31 PM	Abraham, Issac and Jacob
cupocheer Assumption, IL 68, joined May. 2010	Yes. The Bible is pretty clear on this. Jacob was still Jacob -- he was to become known as Israel. What is being said is that the tribe of Jacob would be known as the "peoples" which are Israel. I actually have study notes on this here, somewhere. I'll look for them and get back to you if you like.
3/31/2017 9:53:48 AM	Abraham, Issac and Jacob
bigd9832 Chicago, IL 64, joined Oct. 2007	CLV Gn 32:28 And saying is He to him, "Not Jacob shall your name be called longer, but rather Israel is your name. For upright are you with the Elohim and with mortals, and are prevailing." The name "Jacob" as well as that of "Israel," though to a lesser degree, was used by the Prophets to designate the whole nation of Israel (comp. Isa. ix. 7, xxvii. 6, xl. 27). http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/8381-jacob Tanakh Isaiah 9:7 My Lord, Let loose a word against Jacob. And it fell upon Israel. Tanakh Isaiah 27:6 [In days] to come Jacob shall strike root. Israel shall sprout and blossom, And the face of the world Shall be covered with fruit. Tanakh Isaiah 40:27 Wh do you say, O Jacob, Why declare, O Israel, "My way is hid from the Lord, My cause is ignored by my God"? So, according to Isaiah 27:6: If Jacob can be seen as the root... And Israel can be seen as the sprout and blossom... Then when using the word "Jacob" we are talking about the root or origins of Israel. When using the word "Israel" we are talking about how Israel has sprouted and bloomed. Since this is Israel's Infancy in Genesis, there would not be much occasion to call Jacob "Israel" yet, except maybe in prophecy. Now, what do you think the fruit means in Isaiah 27:6?
4/11/2017 4:48:37 PM	Abraham, Issac and Jacob
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 64, joined Feb. 2008	I honestly don't know the answer to that one, Dave. Maybe it has some significance, maybe not. Maybe somebody on here knows, but I don't.
4/14/2017 3:59:10 AM	Abraham, Issac and Jacob
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	There are various thoughts on this, Dave. Actually Jacob had two encounters with God, one in Genesis 32 & again in Genesis 35. In Genesis 32 he still hadn't finished his struggle with men, especially with his brother Esau. So only half the victory was there & the name Jacob was primarily used in his encounter with Esau. Here in this place he called Mahanaim ('Two Camps') he had seen the angels of God. So there were two camps there, his camp & the camp of Elohim. In the first encounter he had with God, there is the unique 'Man' he wrestled with until daybreak when all alone. This 'Man' gave him his name change & blessed him after Jacob asked him to, because he wouldn't let go of this 'Man.' What he said was revelational: 'You have wrestled with God & with men & have prevailed.' This 'Man' was none other than God Himself, but Jacob was able to see Him & touch Him AND NOT DIE. So Israel named the place: Peniel meaning 'Face of God.' On the second encounter in Genesis 35 is very revelational too. Gen 35:1 Then God said to Jacob, “Go up to Bethel & settle there & build an altar there to God, who APPEARED to you when you were fleeing from your brother Esau." God spoke to Jacob and told him to build an altar there to God for worshipping Him, the very God who had appeared to him back in Genesis 32 when Jacob was fleeing from his brother Esau. The God who spoke DIDN'T SAY, build an altar to Me but build an altar to God who appeared to you. We apparently have two who are called God, whom Jacob is to worship! Here I believe is another revelational passage confirming the Father & the Son in the OT, the pre-incarnate Christ. The Son 'explains' the Father visibly & people in the OT 'saw' God & didn't die. In other passages in the OT this 'Son of Man' as Daniel called Him and the only Son to be begotten in the Psalms (Psalm 2, etc.) is also the only begotten Son, the Messiah. Israel aka Jacob when blessing his son Joseph, also calls Him, 'The Mighty God of Jacob, from which comes The Shepherd, the Rock of Israel & because of your father’s God, who helps you, because of the Almighty, who blesses you.' Solomon, in Ecclesiastes 12:10,11 he says, "The Preacher sought to find delightful words & to write words of TRUTH CORRECTLY. The words of wise men are like goads, and masters of these collections are like well-driven nails; they are given BY ONE SHEPHERD. Jacob aka Israel also said that the God who appeared to him twice at Mahanaim ('Two Camps') was the same One, The Shepherd who from that point had always been with him & watched over him & he also called this 'Man' who appeared to Him, YHWH, the God before Whom his fathers Abrahm & Isaac walked faithfully, the unique 'Messenger Who has REDEEMED HIM & kept him from all harm & evil.' Jacob has a Redeemer, too, just like Job did! (Job 19:23-27) Gen 48:15,16 "May the God before Whom my fathers Abraham & Isaac walked faithfully, the God who has been my Shepherd all my life to this day, The Messenger Who has REDEEMED me from all harm." Such an awesome revelation of the plural Elohim, the picture of the Triune God in the OT, with the many names & titles attributed to the Father & the Son. May His Name indeed be praised. Moses also saw Him in the burning bush in Exodus 3. Gideon saw Him face to face & felt he was doomed to die as no one can see God & live (Ex 33:20). At the same time, Adoni YHWH said to him to have peace, he wouldn't die. One appearance of God Who was speaking to him that he can see; another one he called God that was speaking to him that he cannot see. In Judges 13 you again have the unique visit of The unique Messenger of YHWH to Manoah & his wife, only this time you have the visible Messenger present, then YHWH Elohim speaking & then is mentioned THE SPIRIT of YHWH! Here again is an OT passage referring to the three Persons of the Trinity, just as in the NT. Here in vs 22,23 Manoah & his wife say, We are doomed to die!” he said to his wife. “We have seen God!” 23But his wife answered, “If YHWH had meant to kill us, he would not have accepted a burnt offering & grain offering from our hands, nor shown us all these things or now told us this.” The One Who visited them was called God & they thought therefore they were going to die. Manoah's wife equates the One who visited them as YHWH Himself, Who didn't kill them. In Genesis 16, the fleeing Hagar, pregnant with Ishmael & feeling they would die in the wilderness, said the same thing when this unique 'Messenger of YHWH' appeared to her & spoke to her & told her of the promises concerning her & her child. This Messenger she called YHWH & named Him, the El Roi, 'The God Who Sees' that I have seen with my own eyes & still lived. Here again we see the Elohim as two different, distinct YHWHs. One is YHWH they can see & still live & at the same time One is speaking to them that they cannot see. More can be shown but back to Jacob aka Israel. From Gen 35:21 to the end of Genesis, he is called Jacob 49X and Israel 39X. Some have suggested that when he is acting in a spiritual capacity, Israel is used & when he is acting in the natural realm, Jacob is used. This doesn't seem to work out in each case. Another one I thought of was, that Jacob was striving with God & people & won, & when that happened, Israel is used but when he struggled & no victory or relief is given, then Jacob is used. When his children acted like he did before the name change, they were called the children of Jacob, not Israel. When he arrived in Egypt and lived there and saw Joseph & his sons, he was almost exclusively called Israel. There he was recognized as a prince of His people. When he blessed his children he was primarily called Israel, acting as a prince of his people & descendants. [Edited 4/14/2017 4:01:49 AM ]
5/12/2017 12:20:20 AM	Abraham, Issac and Jacob
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	http://www.truthmagazine.com/archives/volume32/GOT032269.html Gathered To His People by David A. Padfield Evansville, Indiana Who among us has not pondered the great question, "Will I recognize my friends in heaven?" While the Bible does not directly ask this question, the human heart does. In death's dark hour, can I comfort the relatives of those who "died in the Lord" with the hope of a future reunion in heaven? Or, when the undertaker closes the casket, is this truly the hour of final separation? It appears as though the Scriptures assume we will know and recognize one another in heaven. The great patriarch Abraham died at the age of 175. Moses records his death with these words: "Then Abraham breathed his last and died in a good old age, an old man and full of years, and was gathered to his people. And his sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in the cave of Machpelah. . . " (Gen. 25:8-9a). Notice the sequence: he died, was gathered to his people and then his body was buried in the cave of Machpelah. Though the tomb was new, somehow Abraham was now with his people. This phrase, "gathered to his people," is found recorded at the death of many Old Testament worthies, such as: - Ishmael (Gen. 25:17) - Isaac (Gen. 35:29) - Jacob (Gen. 49:33) - Aaron (Num. 20:24) - Moses (Deut. 33:50) - Josiah (2 Kgs. 22:8) The destiny of Moses is further described in Deuteronomy 31:16 when God says, "Behold, you will rest with your fathers." This could not possibly refer to his physical body, for it was buried "in a valley in the land of Moab, opposite Beth Peor" (Deut. 34:6). Not only do we read of individuals being "gathered" to their people, but after the death of Joshua we find an entire "generation had been gathered to their fathers" (Judg. 2:10). But what does it mean to be gathered to our people? "Gathered" (Hb. acaph) is defined as "to be collected, gathered together . . . used of entering into Hades, where the Hebrews regarded their ancestors as being gathered together. This gathering to one's fathers, or one's people is distinguished both from death and burial" (Gesenius' Hebrew And Chaldee Lexicon, p. 626). William Wilson commented, "To be gathered to his fathers, is a peculiar phrase deserving notice; it is distinguished from death which precedes, and from burial of the body which follows: Gen. xxv. 8; xxxv. 29; 2 Kings xxii. 20. It seems to denote the being received by his own people, or among them. We read in the N.T. of being received into Abraham's bosom, or of sitting down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven, as at a feast; so that to be gathered to his own people, is to be with them in joy or torment in Hades" (Wilson's Old Testament Word Studies, p. 182). Abraham has been "gathered to his people" until that day when his dust shall live again at the sound of the last trumpet, and all the buried dead shall hear the voice of the Son of Man. When Isaac and Ishmael were "gathered to their people," did they recognize their own father, Abraham? It would be foolish to deny they did. It was a source of comfort when the prophetess Huldah told Josiah he would be "gathered to his fathers" (2 Kgs. 22:20). But what comfort would there be if he could not recognize his "fathers"? Was he to dwell in eternity, among his own family, as a total stranger? When we speak of future recognition, some skeptic will usually ask, "Would you be happy if you were in heaven knowing some of your friends were not there?" Instead of helping our problem, this question increases it. If I can not recognize any of my loved ones in heaven, then I would be forever uncertain if any of them made it there! I would have to worry about all of them. Furthermore, this question assumes that I would want to overlook the manner of life these people led while alive. If they are lost, it will be because they did not desire heaven enough to quit the practice of sin. Yes, we will be saddened by the loss of some, but I always throughout this is why "God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying; and there shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away" (Rev. 21:4). Another objection sometimes raised is found in Matthew 22:30. There, Jesus tells us that in the resurrection we will neither marry, nor be given in marriage, but be like the angels of heaven. But this passage proves our point. The angels of heaven certainly know and recognize each other. We will not have a physical marriage there, for we will be married to the Lamb of God (Rev. 19:7). The first child from the union of David and Bathsheba died after a week of suffering (2 Sam. 12:15-23). Grief-stricken David, with his child yet unburied, said, "Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me." What comfort could David have of being with his child again if he could not distinguish his child from mine? After the final judgment, I fully expect to "see Abraham & Isaac & Jacob & all the prophets in the kingdom of God" (Luke 13:28). I shall see them in the same way I shall see Jesus (1 John 3:2) & his Father (Rev. 22:4). The same Greek word ('optomai') is used in all three verses. Congregations often sing the beautiful song, "Shall We Gather At The River?" In it, we ask our brothers & sisters in Christ to meet by the river of life (Rev. 22:1) when our journey here is completed. Knowing we shall recognize one another in heaven, let us labor diligently to increase our acquaintances there. And as another song suggests, "If we never meet again this side of heaven, As we struggle through this world and its strife, There's another meeting place somewhere in heaven, By the side of the river of life." Guardian of Truth XXXII: 19, pp. 580, 597
5/12/2017 4:01:17 AM	Abraham, Issac and Jacob
share_n_love Fort Wayne, IN 61, joined Dec. 2012	DISTINGUISHING JACOB AND ISRAEL HERBERT BLOCK Jacob, the younger of twin brothers and the third of the biblical patriarchs, was in his mature years when he received his name Israel. Having two names is unusual in the Bible, and thus raises the question as to why this son of Isaac and Rebekah was granted a second name When he was born his parents called him Yaakov, derived from akev [heel] because he emerged from his mother's womb holding on to the heel of his older brother Esau (Gen. 25:26, 27:36). The name Israel was bestowed on Jacob many years later, by a mysterious "divine being" after a nightlong struggle between the two (32:25-29). The name "Jacob" has negative connotations in his relationship to his twin Esau and the deceit of his father Isaac, but "Israel" marks the beginning of Israelite peoplehood. From this incident onward, some biblical passages use the name Jacob and some use Israel. Even God was not averse to using both names in one verse. And God spoke to Israel in a vision at night and said, 'Jacob!' 'Here I am,' he replied (46:2). Is there some deliberate reason for choosing one or the other, depending on the context? The sages of the Talmud (Berachot 13a) held that both names may be used as written, but that Israel should be of greater significance. Until he received his new name in Genesis 32, Jacob was a compliant person easily swayed by stronger characters like his mother and Laban. When he took advantage of Esau and outwitted Laban it was by subtlety not assertiveness. A man of this kind of character could not be the Patriarch who gave his name to the people of Israel. The man Jacob had to be superseded by a solid, determined man, one who recognized the need for strong, positive action and was ready to take it. Such a person would bear the name Israel, as one who struggled with the Divine and prevailed. This was clearly stated by the being with whom Jacob struggled: 'Your name shall no longer be Jacob, but Israel, for you have striven with God and men and have prevailed' (32:29). http://jbq.jewishbible.org/assets/Uploads/343/343_jacobis1.pdf
5/12/2017 8:28:40 AM	Abraham, Issac and Jacob
looptex1 Chatsworth, GA 49, joined Jun. 2008	Quote from bigd9832: CLV Gn 32:28 And saying is He to him, "Not Jacob shall your name be called longer, but rather Israel is your name. For upright are you with the Elohim and with mortals, and are prevailing." The name "Jacob" as well as that of "Israel," though to a lesser degree, was used by the Prophets to designate the whole nation of Israel (comp. Isa. ix. 7, xxvii. 6, xl. 27). http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/8381-jacob Tanakh Isaiah 9:7 My Lord, Let loose a word against Jacob. And it fell upon Israel. Tanakh Isaiah 27:6 [In days] to come Jacob shall strike root. Israel shall sprout and blossom, And the face of the world Shall be covered with fruit. Tanakh Isaiah 40:27 Wh do you say, O Jacob, Why declare, O Israel, "My way is hid from the Lord, My cause is ignored by my God"? So, according to Isaiah 27:6: If Jacob can be seen as the root... And Israel can be seen as the sprout and blossom... Then when using the word "Jacob" we are talking about the root or origins of Israel. When using the word "Israel" we are talking about how Israel has sprouted and bloomed. Since this is Israel's Infancy in Genesis, there would not be much occasion to call Jacob "Israel" yet, except maybe in prophecy. Now, what do you think the fruit means in Isaiah 27:6?
5/12/2017 12:24:51 PM	Abraham, Issac and Jacob
bigd9832 Chicago, IL 64, joined Oct. 2007	Thank you loopy.
5/30/2017 8:33:10 AM	Abraham, Issac and Jacob
cupocheer Assumption, IL 68, joined May. 2010

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