Forums: Groups: Christians: A question for those who do not believe in Hell.

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There is no such thing as "Hell". We are told they go to the "Lake of fire". And it is different from where people go after they die the first death, called Hades in Luke. As I pointed out, Jesus has the keys to Hades and "death" (Which I assume is physical death. But I could not find that about him having the keys for the "Lake". I might be wrong on that, will have to get my strongs out )

Already there?

I do not think so, I do believe that Satan was defeated at the Cross, the only power he has is what we give him. But no, he is not in the Lake right now.And neither is he in Hades.

As for this:

They are not the same thing, one is after the first death, and the other is the second death. One is where our souls go, a place that Jesus has the keys to, and the other is after the second death. In fact we are told the place where the souls are held, along with physical death, is thrown into the "lake". So, how can you throw "Hell" into "Hell"? Obviously they are two separate places.

You said :

"Hell" does not exist. What are we told? Jesus said they go to "Hades"[ holding place for souls} after death here on earth and prior to the 2nd death : :

Luke 16, from my Amplified :

-22 Now it happened that the poor man died and his spirit was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s [a]bosom (paradise); and the rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades (the realm of the dead), being in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom (paradise).

Hades and the "lake" are not the same. Again lets look at this passage:


Revelation 20:11-15 Amplified Bible (AMP)

-Verse : 11 And I saw a great white throne and Him who was seated upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them [for this heaven and earth are passing away].Verse 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the Book of Life; and the dead were judged according to what they had done as written in the books [that is, everything done while on earth].

Do you agree this is the final Judgment?

-Verse : 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and death and Hades (the realm of the dead) surrendered the dead who were in them; and they were judged and sentenced, every one according to their deeds. 14 Then death and Hades [the realm of the dead] were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire [the eternal separation from God].

Do you see where Hades and the Lake are separate, and not the same?

-Verse 15 And if [a]anyone’s name was not found written in the Book of Life, he was hurled into the lake of fire.,

This tells us, that those whose name was not found in book, after the final judgement are sent to the "Lake".

So to recap:

- Satan? Ends up in the Lake, no mention of him being in Hades. That is why I suspect that he

- after the final judgement, then "death" , "Satan",the "beast" , and those whose name is not in the book, go to the "Lake'.

I am unsure what it is 100%,does it mean destroyed? Its puzzling to me how a concept like death, can be burned in a physical way. Or a spiritual being.

Some Translations refer to it being sulfur, in the Bible that is symbolic for being refined. But at the same time, the Lake is mentioned in association with the second death. All I have in that regard is is a theory, of my own.

So back to this :

I think, they do not go to Hell, because Hell does not exist. After the first death here on earth, they go to a holding place, some call it "Hades".

After Resurrection and the judgement, then those whose name is not in book head to the "Lake".

That is what the Bible says.

What is the Lake? I only have a theory is all.



[Edited 4/15/2017 1:19:55 PM ]

4/14/2017 4:55:39 PM	A question for those who do not believe in Hell.
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 64, joined Feb. 2008	If there is no Hell for humans, if God forgives all and lets all go to Heaven, or if unrepentant sinners merely cease to exist when they pass this life, what about the devil and the other fallen angels? Are they in Hell? Will they all go to Hell one day? What about them? Meet singles at DateHookup.dating, we're 100% free! Join now!
4/14/2017 5:10:44 PM	A question for those who do not believe in Hell.
cupocheer Assumption, IL 68, joined May. 2010	Read the same verse you suggested earlier today, Lud. Revelation 20:10
4/14/2017 5:44:46 PM	A question for those who do not believe in Hell.
kb2222 Jacksonville, FL 76, joined Apr. 2011	Cosmic wisdom is essential to the understanding of cosmic situations. It appears God permits evil to run the full course of its own moral bankruptcy and spiritual extinction.
4/14/2017 7:26:03 PM	A question for those who do not believe in Hell.
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 64, joined Feb. 2008	What KB said certainly has nothingvto do with what I asked. Cupocheer implies that the devil and his angels will be cast into the Lake of Fire (Hell). If God will send sinful angels there, why not sinful humans?
4/14/2017 7:36:15 PM	A question for those who do not believe in Hell.
cupocheer Assumption, IL 68, joined May. 2010	Salvation, Lud.
4/14/2017 8:33:27 PM	A question for those who do not believe in Hell.
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 64, joined Feb. 2008	Cup, so you believe that all will be saved, and that Hell exists for the devil and his angels only?
4/14/2017 8:37:44 PM	A question for those who do not believe in Hell.
cupocheer Assumption, IL 68, joined May. 2010	What does scripture say, Lud?
4/14/2017 9:21:08 PM	A question for those who do not believe in Hell.
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 64, joined Feb. 2008	The scripture is very clear that unrepentant sinners will spend all eternity in a literal firey Hell but that doesn't seem to bother the deniers of Hell.
4/14/2017 9:34:41 PM	A question for those who do not believe in Hell.
cupocheer Assumption, IL 68, joined May. 2010	Don't just say it, Lud --- cite the scripture, book & verse.
4/15/2017 6:04:17 AM	A question for those who do not believe in Hell.
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 64, joined Feb. 2008	Check Strong's Concordance.
4/15/2017 9:46:38 AM	A question for those who do not believe in Hell.
isna_la_wica Brantford, ON 63, joined Mar. 2012	Quote from ludlowlowell: If there is no Hell for humans, if God forgives all and lets all go to Heaven, or if unrepentant sinners merely cease to exist when they pass this life, what about the devil and the other fallen angels? Are they in Hell? Will they all go to Hell one day? What about them? Be careful mixing up the "Lake Of Fire", with Gehenna, Sheoul or Hades. They are not all the same thing. Its like saying if your car breaks down, the thingy broke , to your mechanic. It means nothing to him or her. And that is exactly what you do when you use the word "hell", you might as well be saying "thingy". And that too wide a term, makes physical death, spiritual death, and even the hole in the ground all the same thing. Its a theological lazy persons term. Kinda like your cab breaking down, and you do not open the hood and have a look so you can give the mechanic some idea what happened. You just call in , the cab broke, must be the thingy. What is the Lake of Fire? It is where the Adversary , the beast and the false prophet end up : Revelation 20:10 Young's Literal Translation and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages. But this brings up more questions than it answers, for we know that Hades and death are also thrown in : Revelation 20:14 Young's Literal Translation (YLT) 14 and the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire -- this [is] the second death; But "death" is not a real thing, it is simply a period of inactivity : Ecclesiastes 9:10 Young's Literal Translation (YLT) 10 All that thy hand findeth to do, with thy power do, for there is no work, and device, and knowledge, and wisdom in Sheol whither thou art going. So how can 'death " be "tormented " by flame? And going further, what is the Adversary? Is he a spiritual or a physical being? Because spiritual beings cannot be burned up: Exodus 3:2 Young's Literal Translation (YLT) 2 and there appeareth unto him a messenger of Jehovah in a flame of fire, out of the midst of the bush, and he seeth, and lo, the bush is burning with fire, and the bush is not consumed. Judges 13:20 Young's Literal Translation (YLT) 20 and it cometh to pass, in the going up of the flame from off the altar toward the heavens, that the messenger of Jehovah goeth up in the flame of the altar, and Manoah and his wife are looking on, and they fall on their faces to the earth, But who else ends up there? We are told Revelation 21:8 Young's Literal Translation (YLT) 8 and to fearful, and unstedfast, and abominable, and murderers, and wh*remongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all the liars, their part [is] in the lake that is burning with fire and brimstone, which is a second death.' These differ, because they only end up there after the "second death". And going back to "death and Hades", we also see that the second death is mentioned as well. Men are resurrected from the dead: 1 Corinthians 15:21 Young's Literal Translation (YLT) 21 for since through man [is] the death, also through man [is] a rising again of the dead, So do they have a second "death" after judgment, and those not "worthy " are cast into the lake as well. But if you use the thingy term, "Hell",then you are saying that Hades where the souls are held till then, the lake of fire where death and Hades is eventually cast, are the same thing. And they are not. And here is another difference, we are told that Christ has the keys to Hades and the the deep. I figure the "deep" is symbolic for death. Revelation 1:18 Young's Literal Translation (YLT) 18 and he who is living, and I did become dead, and, lo, I am living to the ages of the ages. Amen! and I have the keys of the hades and of the death. Revelation 20:13 Young's Literal Translation (YLT) 13 and the sea did give up those dead in it, and the death and the hades did give up the dead in them, and they were judged, each one according to their works; But I cannot find any reference to him having the keys to the lake, so this is another clue that they are not the same thing. So, what do I think? The passage in Luke 16:19-31, is not a parable. Every single time Jesus told a parable he made it clear that it was a story. Some claim, he was only speaking symbolically. But lets say he was, would he tell a lie in doing so? Surely he would still use truth in it. So I take Luke 16 :19-31 as it is. After death, before the Cross, all flesh goes to the grave. Our souls went to the same place, you can call it Hades. How ever Hades has 2 parts with a chasm separating them, this is clear, one side for those "worthy', one side for those not : Luke 16:19-31 26 and besides all these things, between us and you a great chasm is fixed, so that they who are willing to go over from hence unto you are not able, nor do they from thence to us pass through. After the Cross though,we go to be with the Lord. And those in Abraham's "bosom", would have been moved. After Resurrection, that is when the second death and the 'Lake" would come into play. Just my opinion, but I think its symbolic. For how can a spiritual being, or death, or Hades, be physically burned? So, I think it means to being done away with.
4/15/2017 12:00:12 PM	A question for those who do not believe in Hell.
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 64, joined Feb. 2008	Isna, I think you are implying, and I think Cupocheer is implying, that Lucifer and the angels who followed him in rebellion will go, or already are, in Hell, but that humans who rebel against God will not go to Hell. I know you can't speak for Cup, but is that your belief? If so, why is God harsher on fallen angels than fallen humans? Yes, the word "Hell" has different definitions, depending on how it is used, but here I mean the firey Hell of the Lazarus-rich man parable, the Lake of Fire of Revelation.
4/15/2017 1:18:45 PM	A question for those who do not believe in Hell.
isna_la_wica Brantford, ON 63, joined Mar. 2012	Quote from ludlowlowell: Isna, I think you are implying, and I think Cupocheer is implying, that Lucifer and the angels who followed him in rebellion will go, or already are, in Hell, but that humans who rebel against God will not go to Hell. I know you can't speak for Cup, but is that your belief? If so, why is God harsher on fallen angels than fallen humans? Yes, the word "Hell" has different definitions, depending on how it is used, but here I mean the firey Hell of the Lazarus-rich man parable, the Lake of Fire of Revelation. I have no idea what cup says, I have her blocked, so will not speak for her or against her. I have no reason to knock her unlike others who block and attack from behind it. So will not comment on what she says. As for me? [quote}that Lucifer and the angels who followed him in rebellion will go, or already are, in Hell
4/15/2017 1:44:04 PM	A question for those who do not believe in Hell.
share_n_love Fort Wayne, IN 61, joined Dec. 2012	This topic has been beaten to a pulp in this group, and this question asked by lud isn't worth discussing. because no matter what one says he won't get it.
4/15/2017 2:27:43 PM	A question for those who do not believe in Hell.
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 64, joined Feb. 2008	Isna, don't you realize your long winded answer is just a lot of beating around the bush? Isn't it clear from scripture that a firey place of eternal torment called Hell exists? Why else would Jesus have taught the parable of Lazarus and the rich man? The first death of Revelation is our physical death. The second death of Revelation is being thrown into the Lake of Fire, a.k.a. Hell, forever, a living death for all eternity, a death to any hope of a spiritual life or of any salvation.
4/15/2017 3:59:14 PM	A question for those who do not believe in Hell.
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	Good question Lud & some good thoughts to ponder, Rich. I can understand the issue with using the English translation of 'hell' for sheol, hades, sometimes for the grave in the OT, gehenna aka the lake of fire aka the second death. I have commented on that in various posts over time on here. One needs to recognize the usage of hell over time when one goes from the OT to the NT & the change of language & understanding of Scripture. I do not quite think of it as a lazy man's way of describing the spiritual place of departed souls after people physically die. Those learned scholars & those fluent in the Biblical languages were not lazy; they were earnestly & faithfully seeking to convey this idea to their readers at the time they commented on &/or translated the Scriptures--this Scriptural place/state of the temporary spiritual realm where people go after they physically die and the final resting place where some go after physical death & resurrection of their physical bodies re-uniting with their soul/spirit. We cannot divorce the translation from the time era to which it was translated, the evolution of the language usage over time, etc. Just as we need to seek to place ourselves back into the historical, cultural, linguistical & contextual parameters in order to gain the sense & meaning of the original writers of Scripture--under the guidance of the Holy Spirit & of Christ opening our minds to have His mind in understanding the Scriptures--so we need to do the same when examining translations through history. After reading hundreds of Jewish sources & hundreds of biblically fluent language experts/scholars/church fathers, etc. down through history since the first century, I have come to the following conclusions & I see the majority of those I have read, have, too. It has been through much study, in examining the whole of Scripture on this subject, the whole history of Jewish thought on the afterlife & the whole Christian history of Scripture exegesis since the first century, to come to the conclusions I have learned. As always, apply Acts 17:11 to what I say. I would also like to address, Lord willing, the Luke 16 teaching that Jesus gave of Lazarus & Dives (Latin name), the certain rich man, consciously in Hades in the spiritual realm, where Abraham resided, who had died & was yet alive (as Jesus taught: ) in the compartment in Hades called by various names--Abrahams Bosom, Paradise, the Abode of Bliss, Gan Eden, the spiritual Garden of Eden, etc.--& as taught by both Jewish & Christian wise men since ancient times to the present. The Bible continues to be the best seller of all other books & the KJV/NKJV continue to out-sell all other versions, though the NIV is second in sales of the Bible. God's Word has not returned void in the changing of lives of these translations over time--God has honored them by giving evidence of His power to communicste His message of the gospel through them & other language translations (Latin, French, Old English, German, Spanish, Arabic, etc., & bring billions of lives into His kingdom & family. The first place in examining the TEMPORARY ABODE of the dead & the WITHOUT END PERMANENT ABODE of the resurrected spiritually dead people & angelic beings-- the eternal/without end/ages of the ages, unto the age & for ever, everlasting (however it can be translated from the OT/NT Hebrew & Greek terms)--is with the character of God HImself & what He has revealed about Himself. We need to understand with spiritual & scriptural discernment who God is & why He created these places concerning the curse & the law of sin & death. The we can examine the definition of these places & the characteristics of these places as well as the characteristics of WHO is inside them. Before I move on, I must quickly make a distinction between PHYSICAL FIRE in the physical realm & SPIRITUAL FIRE in the spiritual realm,. so no confusion or misunderstanding is left as to the difference. This will clear up a LOT of problems right away. Mk 12:27 YLT 'He is not the God of dead men, but a God of LIVING MEN; ye then go greatly astray.' Mt 22:29 And Jesus answering said to them, 'Ye go astray, not knowing the Writings [Scriptures], nor the power of God.' Luke 9:29-32 YLT As he was praying, the appearance of his face became altered & His clothes became as bright as a flash of lightning. {Mk 9:2,3 YLT He was transfigured before them & His garments became glittering, white exceedingly, as snow, so as a fuller upon the earth is not able to whiten them. Mt 17:2 YLT He was transfigured before them & His face shone as the sun & His garments did become white as the light} TWO MEN, MOSE & ELIJAH, APPEARED IN GLORY [GLORIOUS SPLENDOR], TALKING WITH JESUS. They spoke about His SOON DEPARTURE (death), which he was about to bring to fulfillment at Jerusalem. Peter & his companions were very sleepy, but when they became FULLY AWAKE, they saw Jesus' GLORY & the two men standing with him. Physical fire, whether directly from God as 'consuming fire' (many verses--Heb 12:29; Deut 4:24; 9:3; Is 33:14, etc.) or fire derived from nature, burns, consumes all that is physical & can bring physical death, due to the fire/physical flames. (there are exceptions where God protects from these as in the 3 Israelite children in Daniel, etc.) If ever you have been burned physically, you know what that pain feels like. Spiritual fire is different from physical fire. Physical fire can kill the body but it & people cannot kill the soul and/or the spirit; they are in the spiritual realm & people can't kill them. (Matt 20:28). So the spiritual fire is different in how it affects people in the spiritual realm, it cannot bring death to the soul or the spirit. Something DOES bring death to them--spiritual death--but that death cannot annihilate or bring to extinction the soul/spirit. That part of mankind which was created & made in the image & likeness of God does not cease to exist nor is it annihilated, just like God as spirit, does not cease to exist nor is annihilated. So the spiritual fire can bring ruin (destruction) to the person (soul/spirit), it can bring misery & torment & with some punishment--like the tongue (James 3:1-16; Prov 12:18; 57:4; 59:7; Prov 15:4; 25:18, etc.). The tongue is like a spiritual fire in bringing misery; it is described as a sword piercing you & bringing torment & fear & regret. This is the type of tormenting flames that Dives, the rich man in Hades, experienced in Luke 16. Was he physically thirsty after he had died & found himself in the spiritual abode among the physically dead? No. Read the context of Jesus' teaching; showing what was tormenting him spiritually in hades. I Cor 15:26 The last enemy to be done away with {destroyed, abolished} is death. Once the physical bodies are resurrected out from the graves, they are made immortal like the Lord's resurrected body. They will no longer die. When the last enemy done away with is physical death, It will no longer exist or have power over people, so people's resurrected bodies at the end of the present evil age can no longer physically die, just like their souls & spirits. Their new bodies can now exist in both the physical AND the spiritual realms without ending. But... [Edited 4/15/2017 3:59:38 PM ]
4/15/2017 4:06:13 PM	A question for those who do not believe in Hell.
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	(Lud don't confuse the temporary abode, Hades, in Luke 16 where Dives, the certain rich man was with the endless abode, Gehenna, which Jesus talked about in Mt 10:28 or 25:31-46; Rev 20,21,22). (continuing) Just because their bodies are made immortal & brought back to PHYSICAL life & physical breath is once again put into this body (Ezek 10:4-10), it doesn't change the spiritually dead condition of the soul/spirit of those who have died spiritually through trespasses & sins. They cannot be killed so they exist in a spiritually dead state (though consciously existing) when united again to their resurrected bodies. Also... The last enemy, death, is cast into 'gehenna'--the 'lake of fire' the 'lake of fire & brimstone' the 'second death'--it is cast into the FINAL abode of the 'without end' 2nd death, where the worm does not die & the fire is not quenched. People forget WHY it is cast into gehenna. Included in the realm of the dead, within the gates of death (Job 38:12-31), within the deepest realm of sheol/hades, is Tartarus, with the imprisoned evil spirits. These were awaiting judgment at the end of the age & they are thrown into gehenna when the abode of death is thrown in. (see Jude 1 & 2 Peter) Mt 25:41--eternal/fire of the ages AFTER millenial kingdom & final resurrection; i.e., in the ages called time without end, *Strongs G166, 'perpetuity', no definite end to it. We know it is AFTER the millenial kingdom (I believe in an EARTHLY physical 1000 year reign of Christ) because this kingdom is of & on the earth whereas ONLY the righteous resurrected sheep enter INTO GLORY now into the spiritual kingdom OF HEAVEN (vs 1,14,34) that in other places comes out of heaven down to the earth, the spiritual Jerusalem. (Rev 21,22) *Strong's G166 aio¯nios, ahee-o'-nee-os; from G165; perpetual; (also used of past time, or past AND future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began). LXX related word(s): Strong's h5769 olam, o-lawm' from H5956; properly concealed, that is, the vanishing point; generally time out of mind (past or future), that is, (practically) eternity; frequentative adverbially (especially with prepositional prefix) always: - always (-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, [n-]) ever (-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end). Compare H5331, H5703. LXX related word(s) G165 aion G166 aionios The only way for them to be made alive is through repentance & being born again, regenrated by the Spirit by the mercy and grace of God through faith faith in the one true gospel belief--trusting in the Lord Jesus Christ to save them. You MUST be born a second time by the Spirit through faith. This leads to being transferred out of Satan's kingdom of darkness (children of disobedience under God's wrath--Eph 2:1-18) & into the kingdom of the marvelous light of God in the face of Christ (children of obedience & faithful living in Christ--Col 1:9-14; John 5:24-26) There is a difference between spiritual life being given NOW BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH, to the inner man--SOUL & SPIRIT (John 5:24-25)--and the physical life given once again, in the future, to the resurrected BODIES at the end of the age (John 5:28,29) Two different operations & results, two different time frames & conditions. John 5:24 (is a great summary verse within the context of verses 23-29): Truly, truly, I say to you, that the one hearing My word AND believing the One having sent Me, he has eternal life & does not come into judgment, but has passed out of (crossed over from) death into life. Back in 2013 on here I did a simple connect the 5 dots of how God's essence & nature of existing as consuming fire (who God is, a chief attribute of God just like God is love, spirit, holy, just, righteous, etc.) can indeed be manifested in all 3 realms: in the physical realm, in the temporary spiritual abode of those who have physically died-- sheol/hades--& in the permanent abode of the resurrectred spiritually dead & the devil & his evil, angelic host in gehenna, the lake of fire. (the second death--that state of spiritual death for both body & soul which comes AFTER the first death is done away with. (that fear & bondage to that state experienced after PHYSICAL death but before the final resurrection & judgment at the end of the evil age.)
4/15/2017 6:41:27 PM	A question for those who do not believe in Hell.
isna_la_wica Brantford, ON 63, joined Mar. 2012	Quote from brashdoc: I do not quite think of it as a lazy man's way of describing the spiritual place of departed souls after people physically die. I call it the "lazy persons " theology while thinking about my self. And I have been on both sides of the debate, and realized that I my self was being lazy. It is quite easy to find scripture to back up either position in a black and white way. But it really takes to study and hard work to study all the abodes mentioned, and they are not all the same. We cannot divorce the translation from the time era to which it was translated, the evolution of the language usage over time, etc. Just as we need to seek to place ourselves back into the historical, cultural, linguistical & contextual parameters in order to gain the sense & meaning of the original writers of Scripture--under the guidance of the Holy Spirit & of Christ opening our minds to have His mind in understanding the Scriptures--so we need to do the same when examining translations through history. Agreed. After reading hundreds of Jewish sources & hundreds of biblically fluent language experts/scholars/church fathers, etc. down through history since the first century, I have come to the following conclusions & I see the majority of those I have read, have, too. It has been through much study, in examining the whole of Scripture on this subject, the whole history of Jewish thought on the afterlife & the whole Christian history of Scripture exegesis since the first century, to come to the conclusions I have learned. Lol, that is hard work. I know, when my Dad died I got all his notes from his teaching on the subject. And trying to match them all with his books? Has been hard work. And My Dad did most of the work for me, yet I still struggle. The first place in examining the TEMPORARY ABODE of the dead & the WITHOUT END PERMANENT ABODE of the resurrected spiritually dead people & angelic beings-- the eternal/without end/ages of the ages, unto the age & for ever, everlasting (however it can be translated from the OT/NT Hebrew & Greek terms)--is with the character of God HImself & what He has revealed about Himself. We need to understand with spiritual & scriptural discernment who God is & why He created these places concerning the curse & the law of sin & death. The we can examine the definition of these places & the characteristics of these places as well as the characteristics of WHO is inside them. True, and a good thought. It must always be consistent with Gods nature, good point. Mk 12:27 YLT 'He is not the God of dead men, but a God of LIVING MEN; ye then go greatly astray.' Mt 22:29 And Jesus answering said to them, 'Ye go astray, not knowing the Writings [Scriptures], nor the power of God.' Luke 9:29-32 YLT As he was praying, the appearance of his face became altered & His clothes became as bright as a flash of lightning. {Mk 9:2,3 YLT He was transfigured before them & His garments became glittering, white exceedingly, as snow, so as a fuller upon the earth is not able to whiten them. Mt 17:2 YLT He was transfigured before them & His face shone as the sun & His garments did become white as the light} TWO MEN, MOSE & ELIJAH, APPEARED IN GLORY [GLORIOUS SPLENDOR], TALKING WITH JESUS. They spoke about His SOON DEPARTURE (death), which he was about to bring to fulfillment at Jerusalem. Peter & his companions were very sleepy, but when they became FULLY AWAKE, they saw Jesus' GLORY & the two men standing with him. Ah, something I have wanted to talk about for a while now, but in a different way. Will bring it up on another thread not to side track this one. If ever you have been burned physically, you know what that pain feels like. Yep, I had a torch blow up in my hand once, and was also burned with Ammonia gas once, my lungs filled with fluid and it was terrible pain just to breathe. So I sometimes wonder , what is "spiritual "fire " would feel like? Something DOES bring death to them--spiritual death--but that death cannot annihilate or bring to extinction the soul/spirit. That part of mankind which was created & made in the image & likeness of God does not cease to exist nor is it annihilated, just like God as spirit, does not cease to exist nor is annihilated. OK, I have a wild thought about this. But our souls "return to God", right? But we know that we have continuity, between Physical death and death, and life after death. (its 3 stages, right? ) Perhaps the purification of spiritual fire, is wiping out the personality, the memories, the continuity that believers will have? While the soul is not destroyed, returned to God, but its been 'wiped clean", so to speak. I know that sounds far out there. I am talking about the second death here. So the spiritual fire can bring ruin (destruction) to the person (soul/spirit), it can bring misery & torment & with some punishment--like the tongue (James 3:1-16; Prov 12:18; 57:4; 59:7; Prov 15:4; 25:18, etc.). The tongue is like a spiritual fire in bringing misery; it is described as a sword piercing you & bringing torment & fear & regret. This is the type of tormenting flames that Dives, the rich man in Hades, experienced in Luke 16. Was he physically thirsty after he had died & found himself in the spiritual abode among the physically dead? No. Read the context of Jesus' teaching; showing what was tormenting him spiritually in hades. I Cor 15:26 The last enemy to be done away with {destroyed, abolished} is death. I agree, and wonder if the water he thirsted for was the "Living Water"?
4/15/2017 7:02:23 PM	A question for those who do not believe in Hell.
isna_la_wica Brantford, ON 63, joined Mar. 2012	People forget WHY it is cast into gehenna. Included in the realm of the dead, within the gates of death (Job 38:12-31), within the deepest realm of sheol/hades, is Tartarus, with the imprisoned evil spirits. These were awaiting judgment at the end of the age & they are thrown into gehenna when the abode of death is thrown in. (see Jude 1 & 2 Peter) Yep, something I need to look at again. Mt 25:41--eternal/fire of the ages AFTER millenial kingdom & final resurrection; i.e., in the ages called time without end, *Strongs G166, 'perpetuity', no definite end to it. We know it is AFTER the millenial kingdom (I believe in an EARTHLY physical 1000 year reign of Christ) because this kingdom is of & on the earth whereas ONLY the righteous resurrected sheep enter INTO GLORY now into the spiritual kingdom OF HEAVEN (vs 1,14,34) that in other places comes out of heaven down to the earth, the spiritual Jerusalem. (Rev 21,22) I have no problem with this, since you place the caveat : "the righteous resurrected sheep enter INTO GLORY now into the spiritual kingdom OF HEAVEN (vs 1,14,34) that in other places comes out of heaven down to the earth, the spiritual Jerusalem. (Rev 21,22)" A lot like to designate me a "preterist". But most Christians believe that some of the prophecies concerning Christ were full filled, with the exception of some cults. ( I said "Christ" and not Jesus as I know you realize the difference. What I am really, is undecided. But I do believe that the Kingdom of God is available now. To me? It makes no difference if Christ is here in a spiritual or physical way. And the Holy Spirit , God and Christ are one. So he is present. Will he once again come in physical form? Yes, I think so. Where I oppose all the prophecy stuff so popular, is when it promotes the concept that the Kingdom of God is like our nations, or not available till the future. The only way for them to be made alive is through repentance & being born again, regenrated by the Spirit by the mercy and grace of God through faith faith in the one true gospel belief--trusting in the Lord Jesus Christ to save them. You MUST be born a second time by the Spirit through faith. This leads to being transferred out of Satan's kingdom of darkness (children of disobedience under God's wrath--Eph 2:1-18) & into the kingdom of the marvelous light of God in the face of Christ (children of obedience & faithful living in Christ--Col 1:9-14; John 5:24-26) There is a difference between spiritual life being given NOW BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH, to the inner man--SOUL & SPIRIT (John 5:24-25)--and the physical life given once again, in the future, to the resurrected BODIES at the end of the age (John 5:28,29) Yeppers. Back in 2013 on here I did a simple connect the 5 dots of how God's essence & nature of existing as consuming fire (who God is, a chief attribute of God just like God is love, spirit, holy, just, righteous, etc.) can indeed be manifested in all 3 realms: I envision it as Heaven and earth merging, our bodies here resurrected and what ever body (vessel) we have in the time after death but prior to Resurrection,also merging. The Universe stretched out in what we call "creation', is mentioned 11 times in scripture. But now "restored" , the different dimensions brought together. But of course that is just speculation.
4/15/2017 8:11:52 PM	A question for those who do not believe in Hell.
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 64, joined Feb. 2008	If God is not squeamish about sending sinful angels to Hell, why would He be squeamish about sending sinful human beings to Hell?
4/16/2017 3:37:51 PM	A question for those who do not believe in Hell.
isna_la_wica Brantford, ON 63, joined Mar. 2012	Is this, "squeamish" ? Ezekiel 18:23 "Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord GOD, "rather than that he should turn from his ways and live? Ezekiel 18:32 "For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies," declares the Lord GOD. "Therefore, repent and live." Ezekiel 33:11 "Say to them, 'As I live!' declares the Lord GOD, 'I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?' John 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him. Romans 11:14 in the hope that I may provoke my own people to jealousy and save some of them. 1 Timothy 4:10 To this end we labor and strive, because we have set our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe. 2 Timothy 2:25 He must gently reprove those who oppose him, in the hope that God may grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth. 2 Timothy 3:7 always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth. Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ in service of the faith of God's elect and of their knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness, Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men. 1 Timothy 2:4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
4/16/2017 3:52:36 PM	A question for those who do not believe in Hell.
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 64, joined Feb. 2008	God does indeed desire the conversion and salvation of all, but all those verses you cited have to do with the tepentant, Isna. Yes, God forgives, but He forgives REPENTANT sinners only, and only those who repent with their whole hearts. The rest He sends to firey Hell forever, and He explicitly said so at several places in the gospels.
4/16/2017 10:39:54 PM	A question for those who do not believe in Hell.
isna_la_wica Brantford, ON 63, joined Mar. 2012	Quote from ludlowlowell: God does indeed desire the conversion and salvation of all, but all those verses you cited have to do with the tepentant, Isna. Yes, God forgives, but He forgives REPENTANT sinners only, and only those who repent with their whole hearts. The rest He sends to firey Hell forever, and He explicitly said so at several places in the gospels. You put the cart before the horse. God forgave all, it is the individuals who reject him, not the other way around. 2 Corinthians 5:18 Amplified Bible (AMP) 18 But all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ [making us acceptable to Him] and gave us the ministry of reconciliation [so that by our example we might bring others to Him] 2 Corinthians 5:18-21 Amplified Bible (AMP) 18 But all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ [making us acceptable to Him] and gave us the ministry of reconciliation [so that by our example we might bring others to Him], 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting people’s sins against them [but canceling them]. And He has committed to us the message of reconciliation [that is, restoration to favor with God]. 20 So we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making His appeal through us; we [as Christ’s representatives] plead with you on behalf of Christ to be reconciled to God. 21 He made Christ who knew no sin to [judicially] be sin on our behalf, so that in Him we would become the righteousness of God [that is, we would be made acceptable to Him and placed in a right relationship with Him by His gracious lovingkindness]. He built the ark, invited all to sail on her, but many refuse.
4/16/2017 10:58:09 PM	A question for those who do not believe in Hell.
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 64, joined Feb. 2008	Yes, many do refuse God, and those aren't just saved anyway, or given a second chance, or reincarnated. They don't go to soul sleep and tgey don't just cease to exist. Jesus, not me, not some pope, specifically said that those who reject God's offer of forgiveness would go to a firey Hell forever, and He said so on several occasions. He also said that broad is the way to perdition and narrow is the way to eternal life.
4/17/2017 9:32:09 AM	A question for those who do not believe in Hell.
iam_resurrected Reno, NV 46, joined Jul. 2014	Quote from share_n_love: This topic has been beaten to a pulp in this group, and this question asked by lud isn't worth discussing. because no matter what one says he won't get it. Maybe if someone secretly hid behind the statues Lud prays to and whispers, "hell" is the grave, he might finally get a clue. We know it would have to be someone pulling a prank. Because Lud is serious about his idol and statue worshipping.
4/17/2017 10:13:21 AM	A question for those who do not believe in Hell.
isna_la_wica Brantford, ON 63, joined Mar. 2012	Quote from ludlowlowell: Yes, many do refuse God, and those aren't just saved anyway, or given a second chance, or reincarnated. They don't go to soul sleep and tgey don't just cease to exist. Jesus, not me, not some pope, specifically said that those who reject God's offer of forgiveness would go to a firey Hell forever, and He said so on several occasions. He also said that broad is the way to perdition and narrow is the way to eternal life. Jesus did not speak English and neither did he base his theology off Dante.
4/17/2017 11:01:27 AM	A question for those who do not believe in Hell.
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 64, joined Feb. 2008	If unrepentant human sinners are not sent to a firey place of eternal torment, but are simply annihilated (cessation of being), why are unrepentant angel sinners sent there? Why didn't God simply annihilate tge Lucifer and the other fallen angels?
4/18/2017 12:39:59 AM	A question for those who do not believe in Hell.
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	I have been busy so haven't gotten back to posting again. It is true that God does everything He possibly can to bring people to repentance & faith as long as they are still alive on this earth. Rom 5:1,2,6,8 Therefore, since we have been JUSTIFIED THROUGH FAITH, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have access BY FAITH INTO THIS GRACE in which we stand & we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God...But God proves His love for us in this: while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. For at just the right time, while we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Therefore, since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from wrath through Him! For if, when we were enemies of God, we were reconciled to Him through the death of His Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved THROUGH HIS LIFE! This is the GOOD NEWS for those who have been justified by putting their faith & trust in the Lord Jesus Christ. While we believers--formerly under His wrath, like the rest of mankind, dead in our trespasses & sins, powerless to free ourselves from the law of sin & death, labeled as the ungodly & actual enemies of God--chose to repent & place our faith in the shed BLOOD of Christ that brings JUSTIFICATION, no longer UNDER GOD'S WRATH & in the DEATH of the Father's ONLY begotten Son that brings RECONCILIATION & in the RESURRECTION LIFE of Christ that brings SALVATION. Should not we be rejoicing & thankful for what Christ has done for us? Should we not be deeply moved & even weeping for those who continue to reject the blood, death & resurrection life, who refuse to repent & believe the GOOD NEWS? Should we not be praying for the lost, that they might come to their senses as we pray for the blindness & strongholds of the enemy to be torn down, that repentance & faith in Christ can become a reality? Prov 25:21,22 If your enemy is hungry, give him food to eat; And if he is thirsty, give him water to drink; 22 for you will heap burning coals on his head & the LORD will reward you. Rom 12:17-21 Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Carefully consider what is right in the eyes of everybody. 18If it is possible on your part, live at peace with everyone. 19Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but leave room for God’s wrath. For it is written: “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” On the contrary, “If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him a drink. For in so doing, you will heap burning coals on his head." Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. Ezek 33:2-6,8,9 When I bring the sword against a land & the people of the land choose one of their men & make him their watchman 3 & he sees the sword coming against the land and blows the trumpet to warn the people, 4then if anyone hears the trumpet but does not heed the warning and the sword comes and takes their life, their blood will be on their own head. 5Since they heard the sound of the trumpet but did not heed the warning, their blood will be on their own head. IF they had heeded the warning, they would have saved themselves. 6But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet to warn the people and the sword comes and takes someone’s life, that person’s life will be taken because of their sin, but I will hold the watchman accountable for their blood.’ When I say to the wicked, ‘You wicked person, you will surely die,’ and you do not speak out to dissuade them from their ways, that wicked person will die fora their sin, and I will hold you accountable for their blood. 9But if you do warn the wicked person to turn from their ways and they do NOT do so, they will die for THEIR sin, though you yourself will be SAVED. This topic of God's justified wrath & righteous judgment needs to be seen in light of His lovingkindness & longsuffering that is shown so that it can lead people to repentance & faith. All the attributes & nature of God operate simultaneously & perfectly in harmony. That is why one must start with the WHO God is, in all His glory & attributes, if we are to understand WHY He is able to be just & impartial in His judgment, showing His patience & lovingkindness until no more remedy is found & people suddenly die, refusing to repent & believe the gospel, following the Lord Jesus Christ. Rom 2:3-6 So when U...pass judgment on them & yet do the same things, do U think U will escape God’s judgment? 4Or do U show contempt for the riches of His kindness, forbearance & patience, not realizing that God’s lovingkindness is intended to lead U to repentance? 5But because of your stubbornness & your unrepentant heart, U are STORING UP wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when His righteous judgment will be revealed. God “will repay each person according to what they have done." Scripture repeatedly shows God's patience with the wicked, hoping that kindness will act like burning coals of fire on their head, so they will repent, turn to Christ & accept the reconciliation Christ obtained. As Rich said, Christ REMOVED THE ENMITY between God & man by satisfying the just demands of a holy God to those fallen short of His glory. He satisfied the requirements to reconcile people to the Father through His holy, sinless death & resurrection. God overlooked past ignorance, but now God commands all people, everywhere to repent & choose to be reconciled to God by putting their faith in the One who can save us from wrath & judgment. I see my favorite fan on here is stooping even lower than i thought he would in his repeated bearing false witness about me & distorting Scripture. He quotes Mr. Knoch on his definition of being spiritually born again & shows what I already posted--being born again by the Spirit of God is not for Christians until the millenium & that message was for the Jews & the good news was REALLY BAD NEWS & DISAPPOINTING. But then he discredits HIMSELF: he uses 2 Sam 5:13 (CLV) to say Israel was using that phrase about being spiritually born again! 2Sam 5:13 CLV "And David takes again concubines & wives out of Jerusalem, after his coming from Hebron & there are born again to David sons & daughters." The Greek translation of that verse uses the word 'eti' which Mr. Knoch translates as 'again.' That is the ONLY place in the CLV where it translates that phrase. In John 3:3,5 there is a different Greek word, 'anothen' that ACTUALLY translates into again, anew or from above. Again, it is the CLV bias to say being spiritually born again BY THE SPIRIT applies ONLY to Israel. Yet the Greek word 'eti' plainly means in 2 Sam 5:3 still more children (repeatedly) were PHYSICALLY BORN to David, sons & daughters (plural) by new wives; i.e, children repeatedly were physically born to David (greater than 1 person) & it is talking about physical birth not spiritual birth as Jesus plainly taught in John 3.
4/18/2017 12:44:02 AM	A question for those who do not believe in Hell.
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	(continuing) Just compare a multitude of other translations that translate 'eti' as: still or more (APB, Alexandrian, BBE, Bishops, Brenton, CEV, ERV,ESV,ISV, etc.) or yet/more (ASV, AKJV, ERRB, JPS, MLV, RNKJV, RSV, etc.) Even the hebrew word (H5750 ode) means iterance or continuance, again REPEATEDLY, still more, yet once again NOT again one more time but repeatedly again & again & again, David had other sons & daughters. {simply look up Strong's G2089, G509, H5750 to verify} He also equates my being honest about exposing Mr. Knoch's bias, but extrapolates that out to 'I hate ALL GERMANS' & to top that he keeps saying I didn't give any location to the person's testimony who directly quoted Mr. Knoch from his own NT commentary. Am I a liar? Simply look it up in his commentary; it isn't hard to do. I quoted this man who gave 10 years of his life at Concordant Publishing, yet right in the quote it states where it came from. So this bearer of false testimony doesn't read the whole of what I write--thus he missed it as usual--yet tries to ridicule me as if i didn't post it. He then REALLY calls me a liar--for sure this time--concerning posting Strong's G166. But alas, he doesn't post G166--what I posted--but instead posts G165, his substituted straw man argument. He says G165 is properly, an age, by extension, perpetuity...So the TRUE definition is the first one, 'properly an age.' But he deviates even further by splitting the definition in two; but Mr. Strong doesn't. He apparently doesn't understand English very well because he ignores what 'by extention, perpetuity' means! Oxford English Dictionary: by extension means 'taking the same line of argument further by extending, stretching out, lengthening or enlarging the scope of the argument. Perpetuity means: The state or quality of lasting forever; continuing; a period beyond certain limits; never ending or changing. So again, Mr. Strong refutes him, showing an age is an indefinite period that can extend & last forever. Sometimes it can be a limited duration if the context shows it but it can definitely be legitimately translated, especially in the plural as forever & ever or eternal. So his argument is with Mr. Strong once again not me. Oh & btw, G166 is indeed in the plural but that is what the phrase forever AND EVER means, NOT forevers and evers. I again feel so sorry for him that he has to go to such extreme lengths & yet have it all backfire on him. He did it to himself & can blame no one else. God loves him & he is still alive so there is hope. Praise the Lord. Now back to looking at the nature & character of God concerning connecting the simple dots on how can there be fire in Sheol/Hades (temporal place where the departed souls assemble after physical death) & Gehenna/Lake of Fire (the permanent or eternal place where the resurrected wicked/unbelievers are assembled). Remember again, fire in the physical realm & fire in the spiritual realm in the above places are two different things & affect one differently.
4/18/2017 10:47:19 AM	A question for those who do not believe in Hell.
share_n_love Fort Wayne, IN 61, joined Dec. 2012	Quote from iam_resurrected: Maybe if someone secretly hid behind the statues Lud prays to and whispers, "hell" is the grave, he might finally get a clue. We know it would have to be someone pulling a prank. Because Lud is serious about his idol and statue worshipping.
4/18/2017 4:06:33 PM	A question for those who do not believe in Hell.
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 64, joined Feb. 2008	Even if I were an.idol worshipper, which I am not, the question still stands---has or will God throw Satan and the other fallen angels into Hell, and if so, why shouldn't sinful human beings be punished the same way? If unrepentant sinners just cease to be when they pass this life, why doesn't God cause Satan and the fallen angels to cease being?
4/19/2017 3:02:32 PM	A question for those who do not believe in Hell.
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	Discussions of hell, sheol, hades, gehenna, lake of fire, pit, abyss, Tehom, Tophet, etc. are difficult topics to discuss at times, due to the emotional feelings that can be evoked. Usually my lack of understanding is due to a lack of knowledge of who God is as He reveals Himself in the Scriptures. When I understand who God is, the puzzle pieces start falling into place. Also most of us lack the perspective of viewing ALL OF THE SCRIPTURE in what they say about these things, instead of cherry picking favorite selected passages. This connecting the dots came about as one poster on here said there is no fire in sheol or hades & hell isn't in the Scriptures. When I showed him there was verses describing fire there, he tried to dismiss them. Here are some of my thoughts along this line. I am going to try & keep this simple, using connecting dots. I have always enjoyed the game of connecting the dots to complete the picture. Here we go, starting at the beginning with Dot 1: God’s very nature & makeup of His Being. Everything starts with God & ends with God. Who is God? How can we describe Who God is & what His nature is? Only God describes Who He is, as revealed in the Scriptures. Let us take a brief look. I am not going to do a study on the nature & attributes of God, as I said I am trying to keep this simple. A few familiar & not so familiar will be used. *God is spirit (Jn 4:24; Mt 16:16); His intrinsic nature is a spiritual nature, dwelling in the spiritual realm & spiritually eternal; it allows God to be omnipresent, omniscient & omnipotent by nature, being spirit. Notice the difference between God & human beings. God IS spirit wheras we have a spirit given to us. *God is love (I Jn 4:8) & love is OF GOD. (I Jn 4:7) We can love only because He first loved us & again, because He has given us His love to express thru the Holy Spirit, who’s fruit is love, joy, etc. Because God is spirit by nature, His love can reach every person & all the creatures He has made. God’s love is made visible & demonstrated by the sacrificial giving of His Son. (Jn 3:16) God disciplines/chastises those children of His Whom He loves, not those who are not His (Heb 12:5-13) *God is one (many passages referring to the simplicity & undividedness of God, His unity of nature--Deut 6:4; I John 5:7; James 2:19; Rom 3:30; Mk 12:32; I Tim 2:5) *God is immutable (unchanging as to nature & character; implies infinity & perfection; Mal 3:6; James 1:17; Ps 102:26,27 with Heb 1:11,12; 13:8) *God is good (Lk 18:19; Ps 73:1; 106:1; 107:1; 136:1) creates/does good; His nature. *God is merciful (shows Himself merciful to the one who shows mercy but unmerciless to one who doesn’t. (Mt 5:7; James 2:13; Ps 18:25; 116: Rom 9:18; Gal 6:16; I Pet 2:10) There are three more describing God in Scripture that are completely ignored or very rarely mentioned, especially on DHU, which directly relate to this post: *God is holy (Rom 1:4; Ex 15:11; Is 6:3; I Pet 1:15,16; Lev 11:44; 19:2; 20:26 & many more verses where He claims this about Himself. His Name, Word, Spirit & dwelling place is holy because He is. His desire--all things be holy to exist in His Presence so not consumed. God makes a new creation by faith in Christ so we can SHARE in His holiness (Heb 12:10; Eph 4:24). Without holiness no one will see the Lord. (Heb 12:14; Mt 5:8; 2 Sam 22:27; Ps 18:26; 24:4) Without faith no one can please God. (Heb 11:6) God is just & impartial (Deut 32:4; Rom 3:26; Jn 5:30; Mk 12:14; Heb 2:2; James 3:17; Neh 9:13; 2 Chron 19:7; Heb 2:2) God's very nature is described as: consuming fire (Deut 4:24; Heb 12:29--no definite article—This is God’s nature & closely associated with His glory, His Jealousy [Ex 34:14], His purity & His judgments) This is NOT a fire to get warmed by (Deut 5:5,23-25; Heb 12:18-21) [additional verses on God's consuming fire: Is 29:6; 30:27,30; 33:14; Ex 24:17; Num 26:10; Ps 18:8; 50:3; Lam 2:3; 2 Sam 22:9; Deut 9:3; Joel 2:5; Judges 6:21, etc.] Just as it is TRUE that God by very nature is instrinsically spirit or God is love, it is just as equally TRUE that God is holy & that God is consuming fire. All are harmonized & true at any moment in time, within His Being. God has revealed in His Word how all these aspects of His nature harmonize. This is the nature of God described by Himself—in Scripture. He can manifest His nature thru spirit, thru love, thru holiness AND He can manifest His nature thru fire--in order to reveal His true nature to others; or to show His holy jealousy; or to reveal His glory; or to purify & refine; or to bring judgment in both the physical & spiritual realms.
4/22/2017 10:25:58 AM	A question for those who do not believe in Hell.
clarity101 Aurora, CO 66, joined Oct. 2008
4/22/2017 12:08:09 PM	A question for those who do not believe in Hell.
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	Thank you Clarity, for that sobering thought from John MacArthur. I too, have found a sobering thought in Scripture that I had never put together or meditated on before, even though I have read it many times. I will defer from talking about the second connecting dot that shows there is consuming fire in sheol/hades & Gehenna, the Lake of Fire, the final & eternal place of the Second Death for the unbelieving. This sobering thought should also be an examination of us all. Mt 23:13-36 But woe to you, scribes & Pharisees, HYPOCRITES, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do NOT ENTER IN yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in. 14 Woe to you, scribes & Pharisees, hypocrites, because you devour widows’ houses & for a pretense you make long prayers; therefore you will receive GREATER CONDEMNATION. 15“Woe to you, scribes & Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea & land to make one proselyte & when he becomes one, you make him TWICE AS MUCH A SON OF HELL (GEHENNA) AS YOURSELVES. 16“Woe to you, BLIND GUIDES, who say, ‘Whoever swears by the temple, that is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple is obligated.’ 17“YOU FOOLS & BLIND MEN! Which is more important, the gold or the temple that sanctified the gold? 18“And, ‘Whoever swears by the altar, that is nothing, but whoever swears by the offering on it, he is obligated.’ 19"You blind men, which is more important, the offering, or the altar that sanctifies the offering? 20“Therefore, whoever swears by the altar, swears both by the altar & by everything on it. 21“And whoever swears by the temple, swears both by the temple & by Him who dwells within it. 22“And whoever swears by heaven, swears both by the throne of God & by Him who sits upon it. 23“Woe to you, scribes & Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint & dill & cummin & have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: JUSTICE & MERCY & FAITHFULNESS; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others. 24“You blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel! 25“Woe to you, scribes & Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup & of the dish, but inside they are FULL OF ROBBERY & SELF-INDULGENCE. 26“You BLIND Pharisee, first clean the inside of the cup & of the dish, so that the outside of it may become clean also. 27“Woe to you, scribes & Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are FULL OF DEAD MEN'S BONES & ALL UNCLEANNESS. 28 So you, too, outwardly appear righteous TO MEN, but INWARDLY YOU ARE FULL OF HYPOCRISY & LAWLESSNESS. Woe to you, scribes & Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets & adorn the monuments of the righteous & say, ‘If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ So you testify AGAINST YOURSELVES, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 FILL UP THEN THE MEASURE OF THE GUILT of your fathers! U serpents, U brood [progency, offspring] of vipers, HOW WILL YOU ESCAPE THE JUDGMENT [SENTENCE]OF HELL [GEHENNA]? “Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, 35so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. Here is a powerful testimony from Christ Himself to which everyone should carefully pay close attention to & NOT IGNORE. Notice the DIFFERENCE between what Jesus said almost 3 years LATER from the EARLIER warning that John the Baptist gave these same wicked, unbelievers INITIALLY (SEE passage below for comparison). At that time, they simply watched; they refused to repent, confess their sins & get baptized believing in the One Who was to come, the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world, that faith in Him & His sacrificial shed blood brings forgiveness of sins, not temple sacrifices. John was the forerunner, preparing the way for YHWH (another plain prophecy that Jesus is YHWH, since he was preparing the way for Christ!), making a straight path, pointing directly to Christ. What was John's message to them? 'Who told you to FLEE from the coming wrath? The wrath is surely coming--on those who refuse to repent & trust in their self-righteousness & physical heritage--rather than being baptized by the Spirit (inner regeneration). They instead will be baptized with fire & like chaff that is burned up by temporal fire in the physical realm, they will be experience burning with fire that cannot be quenched but continues to burn them in the spiritual realm & the renewed heavens & earth. Jesus message 3 years later is one we all should look at soberly, lest we fall into the same pattern of storing up wrath for the day of judgment (Rom 2:5,6). What did he say to them? "U blind guides, you hypocrites, full of uncleanness & lawlessness--U keep people from entering the kingdom of God & instead make your proselytes twice a son of hell (Gehenna) than yourselves. U TESTIFY AGAINST YOURSELVES, that U are offspring of those who murdered the prophets. 32 FILL UP THEN THE MEASURE OF THE GUILT OF YOUR FATHERS! You serpents, you offspring of vipers [brood, progency], how will U ESCAPE THE JUDGMENT [SENTENCE]OF HELL [GEHENNA]? Do you see what has happened in their lives in just 3 years? They have gone from being warned by John the Baptist to FLEE from the coming wrath to having their hearts so hardened by hypocrisy & lawless sinning that they had stored up enough wrath to now be just short of the full measure. They were right on the edge of the precipice, the escarpment. All they needed to do was take that last step of murder of the Messiah, the Savior of the world, not only rejecting Him but murdering him like their forefathers did with the prophets. Now its not a matter of fleeing from the wrath but being one step away from being sentenced to Gehenna, with no escape. This is what led them to attributing what Jesus did to Satan, directly and repeatedly blaspheming the convicting testimony of the Holy Spirit. They were one step away from filling up the measure of blasphemy and hardness of heart to the convicting voice of the Holy Spirit, that all that Jesus said & did was done by the living God not the devil. They were one step from committing the unpardonable sin, one that would remain, time without end, in both the evil present age & in the one to come, the age of a new heavens & earth that will have no end, the kingdom of the Lamb & the Father, the one continuing forever beyond all other kingdoms as Daniel prophesied.
4/22/2017 12:08:58 PM	A question for those who do not believe in Hell.
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	(continued) They were opposing Christ & keeping people from being saved & instead teaching them to also be those that will be under the sentence of being cast into Gehenna, the Lake of fire & the second death, after the first death has come & gone. Once they took that final step as religious leaders & as a nation of rejecting & murdering Jesus & saying His innocent shed blood was to be placed on them & their offspring--they thus had made a national rejection of the true prophesied Messiah--the Savior of the world, the God, Immanuel, manifested in flesh. Jesus then said their responsibility to bring the saving message of God to the world, would pass to 'another nation, another people,' to the Gentiles who would bring the gospel to all nations. The time of the Gentiles continues, with fulfilling the Great Commission concerning the gospel message. Mt 21:33-45 There was a landowner who planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a winepress in it & built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers & moved to another place. When the harvest time approached, he sent his servants to the tenants to collect his fruit. The tenants seized his servants; they beat one, killed another & stoned a third. Then he sent other servants to them, more than the first time & the tenants treated them the same way. Last of all, he sent his son to them. ‘They will respect my son,’ he said. But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, ‘This is the heir. Come, let’s kill him & take his inheritance.’ 39So they took him & threw him out of the vineyard & killed him. Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants? "He will bring those wretches to a wretched end,” they replied, “and he will rent the vineyard to other tenants, who will give him his share of the crop at harvest time.” 42Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures: ‘The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone; the Lord has done this & it is marvelous in our eyes’? "Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be TAKEN AWAY FROM U & given TO A PEOPLE [NATION] who will produce its fruit. 44Anyone who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; anyone on whom it falls will be crushed.” When the chief priests & the Pharisees heard Jesus’ parables, they knew he was talking about them. Mt 23:37-39 (Lk 13:34,35) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets & stones those sent to her, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were UNWILLING! 38Look, your house is left to you DESOLATE. 39For I tell you that you will not see Me again until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord. Let us examine ourselves, as Paul said, to see if we are in the faith, unless we find ourselves to have failed the test. Have we been storing up wrath, filling up the measure of hypocrisy & being blind guides, leading people on the wide road to destruction that leads to being sentenced to the fire of Gehenna that has no end. John the Baptist: Mt 3:5-13 People went out to him from Jerusalem & all Judea & the whole region around the Jordan. Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River. But when John saw many of the Pharisees & Sadducees coming to {simply} watch at his place of baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers, who warned you to FLEE FROM THE COMING WRATH? Bring forth [produce] fruit worthy of repentance. And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. 10The ax lies ready at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down & thrown into the fire. I baptize you with water for repentance, but after me will come One more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit AND with fire. His winnowing fork is in His hand to clear His threshing floor & to gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. Malachi 2:17 You have wearied YHWH with your words. “How have we wearied him?” you ask. By saying, “All who do evil are GOOD in the eyes of the Lord & He is pleased with them” or “Where is the God of justice?” {i.e., God will not judge people as evil but as good. They are actually all good in His sight, even those who do evil. He is actually pleased with those who do evil.} This false teaching & incorrect view of who God is continues to this very day & is shown on here as well, with some variations. Jesus: see Mt 23:13-36 above. Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible: "The judgment or damnation of hell [Gehenna]", is a phrase often used in the Talmud (p) & Midrashes (q) of the Jews & intends future torment & the everlasting vengeance & wrath of God, the unquenchable fire prepared for the devil & his angels & which impenitent unbelieving sinners cannot escape. (p) T. Bab. Berncot, fol. 61. 1. Erubin, fol. 18. 2. Yebamot, fol. 102. 2. Sota, fol. 4. 2. & 5. 1. & Bava Bathra, fol. 10. 1.((q) Bemidbar Rabba, fol. 203. 1. Shirhashirim Rabba, fol. 14. 2. & Midrash Kohelet, fol. 76. 1. Meyer's NT Commentary: With deliberative force: how are you, judging from your present character, to escape the sentence of hell. (Compare Mt 26:54; Mk 4:30) The judgment or sentence of hell means the pronouncing of the sentence which condemns to Gehenna. The phrase 'judicium Gehennae' is also of very frequent occurrence in the Rabbinical writers. The judgment comes when the measure is full (Mt 23:32; Rom 2:4,5; I Thess 2:16).
4/24/2017 9:41:09 AM	A question for those who do not believe in Hell.
isna_la_wica Brantford, ON 63, joined Mar. 2012	So, Salvation is only for the next life, and to avoid being damned. Funny, I accepted Christ because I knew I needed him in this life during a very dark night. What good is teaching, the 'thingy" you guys call Hell? Scare people into accepting like a child afraid of the "boogey man " in the closet? If someone does not kill you, and follow`s the law against murdering people, just because of the consequences ( jail or lethal injection}, does that mean you think they love you? Anyhow, what a stupid thing to call something, what is "Hell"? I am busy today, fixing the thingy, or the whatch-a-ma- call it. Do I believe in the "grave"? Do I believe in what happened to the rich man? Do I believe in what is called the "Lake Of fire"? They are not the same thing. Just like the word "Salvation", it gets watered down and loses its full meaning by teaching the vague doctrine of Hell. I have a child who has had terrible addiction issues, and problems in life. She has been an Atheist since she was maybe 17. Just recently she started to believe. She did not start to believe because of some thingy called "Hell", and what might happen to her in the "next life". She started to believe because she realized after hitting rock bottom, that she needed Christ now , in this life. And now loves the Lord. What the Hell good is the doctrine of, "Hell"? Except to scare little children? If one thinks, "Salvation" is simply for the next life, and seeks Christ for that reason? That is not "love". That is "fear". Lud rejects the concept of a 'changed ' nature. He preaches that people want to continue as they are, just to avoid consequences, so out of fear of Hell? Makes sure their sins are forgiven by ritual. That, is voo doo stuff, do some ritual to keep the "boogey man "away. That is not "Salvation". Maybe that is why, so many of the "Hell " preachers and Priests are caught in so many scandals? Might as well pick any 3 words in the Bible, and just say, lets change them to "coffee"! Strange really, so many have both eyes that still preach the Hell doctrine, and that Salvation is only avoiding it in the next life. Mark 9:47 ? New International Version And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, Does plucking your eye out, really save you from Dantes Hell? Is this, what this verse means? Is that Salvation?
4/24/2017 3:31:06 PM	A question for those who do not believe in Hell.
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	First of all Rich, I want you to know that I am REJOICING WITH YOU, that your child after much struggle with addiction & being an atheist, has turned to the Lord & in faith has called upon Him for forgiveness & salvation. All the angels in heaven are LEAPING & PRAISING GOD over one sinner who repents & is brought into the sheep fold of the great & Chief Shepherd of our souls! You are one happy pappa, having gone through all the struggles of a father for his child. (Gal 4:19) 2 John 1:3-5 Grace, mercy & peace be with us in truth & love from God the Father & from Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father. I was overjoyed to find some of your children walking in the truth, just as the Father has commanded us. And now I urge you, dear lady—not as a new commandment to you, but one we have had from the beginning—that we love one another. I hear you Rich, on the continual stream of false teachings on here that can weigh us down & try to rob us of our stability & joy in the Lord. We feel we just want to leave. It is hard to contend for the faith once for all delivered to the saints at times without growing weary. I hope my last post was an encouragement to you in showing the contrast of the majority of the people who came to John the Baptist from all over, repenting, confessing sin & believing in the One John pointed out to believe in: the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world. It was only the hard-hearted religious leaders & Pharisees who refused to repent & get baptized. They are the ones Jesus targeted his warnings at primarily concerning the dangers of hades & Gehenna & not to store up wrath & fill the measure up of constantly resisting the witness of the Holy Spirit. Remember too, that the Law is a 'tutor' that is meant to lead us to Christ, exposing self-righteousness & showing our need for the Righteous Savior, who can set us free from the law of sin & death. Hallejujah! Once led to Christ, we can then grow up into the salvation now given us, maturing by the Spirit's sanctifying leading & experiencing the loving fellowship within the local body of Christ, learning how to exercise our spiritual gift(s) & reach out to those who don't know the Lord yet. When we have people promoting the false teaching of a certain individual & his biased interpretive Bible translation that states our born again experience & experiencing God's abundant, eternal, non-ending life, that bubbles over in us as a fresh flowing river of life from the Holy Spirit--IS NOT FOR US IN THIS LIFE--that is like having someone enter your house & rob you of all your belongings & sometime in the future, your insurance co. might give you a payment for it but that doesn't help you NOW. Scripture teaches one does not lose their salvation each time they sin. I feel sorry for those who live a life like that, going one moment to the next, having no assurance of the wonderful salvation that Christ FULLY ATONED FOR, on our behalf. Why is it people won't believe the testimony that God the Father gives us concerning His Son? I John 5:10-13 Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given concerning his Son. And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life & this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son HAS LIFE; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God SO THAT YOU MAY KNOW that you have eternal life. I am going to believe Scripture and the testimony of our Heavenly Father. I apologize for not getting a posting on Dives, the certain rich man & Lazarus which, in my opinion, is not a parable. I have been trying to get my thoughts done on the places in the spiritual realm that people go to when they physically die & the difference between God as consuming fire in His application of that in the physical & spiritual realms. Fire applied in the spiritual realm is not like the fire in the physical realm. Example: what was the tormenting fire that Dives experienced? You were on the right track in seeing the relief of one drop of water (he wasn't thirsty due to being dead already, his soul being in Hades without his body. His body has already been buried & was in the ground on the physical earth. It was only his outer tent, his outer house that housed who was was as a person--his soul/spirit. What bothered Dives the most was his brothers living like he had lived, caring only for themselves & their riches & would end up where he was. His guilt & shame & his inability to now say anything to them, to warn them was eating him up, tormenting him for his failures. I think you are on the right track about the drop of water not being anything to do with physical thirst but the tormenting of rejecting the water of life, which, Lazarus, may have been near on the other side of the abyssmal chasm, in Paradise, which the Jews called Gad Eden, abode of bliss or Abraham's bosom. That is the side Jesus went to, along with the repentant & believing thief on the cross, before His resurrection out from among the dead. You will notice also that Dives never sought for God at any time. There had to be light on the other side of the chasm, in Paradise, in Abraham's Bosom, for him to see Abraham & Lazarus, from his darkened spot on the other side. God in His revealment of this true story, allowed this for a purpose & a lesson for us all. Be encouraged, my brother in Christ by the Spirit & by the encouragement of the Scriptures. Romans 15:4 For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through the endurance taught in the Scriptures and the encouragement they provide we might have hope.
4/24/2017 4:21:07 PM	A question for those who do not believe in Hell.
isna_la_wica Brantford, ON 63, joined Mar. 2012	Sorry, I posted this morning with out reading your posts. Doc, so was not responding to your posts. It was just something I had been thinking about. When I understand who God is, the puzzle pieces start falling into place. Also most of us lack the perspective of viewing ALL OF THE SCRIPTURE in what they say about these things, instead of cherry picking favorite selected passages. It took me over 30 years to discover that, I had thrown the baby out with the bath water, so to speak. And its an ongoing work in progress for all, as it should be. I apologize for not getting a posting on Dives, the certain rich man & Lazarus which, in my opinion, is not a parable. I have been trying to get my thoughts done on the places in the spiritual realm that people go to when they physically die & the difference between God as consuming fire in His application of that in the physical & spiritual realms. Fire applied in the spiritual realm is not like the fire in the physical realm. I agree it is not a "parable". Every time Jesus used a made up story, he made it clear he was doing so. Just as we parents do when talking to our kids and Grand kids. And even it it was? Why would Jesus lie in his story. All his parables reflected "truth". Example: what was the tormenting fire that Dives experienced? You were on the right track in seeing the relief of one drop of water (he wasn't thirsty due to being dead already, his soul being in Hades without his body. His body has already been buried & was in the ground on the physical earth. It was only his outer tent, his outer house that housed who was was as a person--his soul/spirit. Good point, the 'living water" ! What bothered Dives the most was his brothers living like he had lived, caring only for themselves & their riches & would end up where he was. His guilt & shame & his inability to now say anything to them, to warn them was eating him up, tormenting him for his failures. Easy to understand. One could quite easily do a book on this alone. How many of us have buried a friend, family member or even, enemy, and after contemplated where we had failed to do what we should? And this was before the example of Jesus becoming "Christ", and the example he gave us. I think you are on the right track about the drop of water not being anything to do with physical thirst but the tormenting of rejecting the water of life, which, Lazarus, may have been near on the other side of the abyssmal chasm, in Paradise, which the Jews called Gad Eden, abode of bliss or Abraham's bosom. That is the side Jesus went to, along with the repentant & believing thief on the cross, before His resurrection out from among the dead. You will notice also that Dives never sought for God at any time. There had to be light on the other side of the chasm, in Paradise, in Abraham's Bosom, for him to see Abraham & Lazarus, from his darkened spot on the other side. God in His revealment of this true story, allowed this for a purpose & a lesson for us all. Yes, yes and yes. It is only the "living water " that satisfies spiritual "thirst", and yes again, the Rich man went to the same place as those in "Abraham's bosom " went. But there was a chasm separating them. How ever, he could see the other side. This is one of things that bothers me about the catch all phrase "Hell". For it distorts the reality, and its very important. This is how so many get the wrong idea, that God sends people to Hell. Its kinda the other way around. They choose not to accept. I like the book by CS Lewis, The Great Divorce. Who stresses he is writing a novel so it is not an accurate portrayal of the after life in a technical way. How ever it symbolizes that it we who divorce God, not the other way around. Be encouraged, my brother in Christ by the Spirit & by the encouragement of the Scriptures. Romans 15:4 For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through the endurance taught in the Scriptures and the encouragement they provide we might have hope. Amen. Note, your middle post, I want to read some Scripture first before commenting.
4/24/2017 9:06:39 PM	A question for those who do not believe in Hell.
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 64, joined Feb. 2008	We can twist Jesus's words to pretzels or we can accept Jesus's word for it that a literal firey eternal Hell exists.
4/25/2017 5:23:46 AM	A question for those who do not believe in Hell.
isna_la_wica Brantford, ON 63, joined Mar. 2012	Quote from ludlowlowell: We can twist Jesus's words to pretzels or we can accept Jesus's word for it that a literal firey eternal Hell exists. Matthew 22:34-40 Amplified Bible (AMP) 34 Now when the Pharisees heard that He had silenced (muzzled) the Sadducees, they gathered together. 35 One of them, a lawyer [an expert in Mosaic Law], asked Jesus a question, to test Him: 36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37 And Jesus replied to him, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself [that is, unselfishly seek the best or higher good for others].’ 40 The whole Law and the [writings of the] Prophets depend on these two commandments.”
4/25/2017 12:22:30 PM	A question for those who do not believe in Hell.
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 64, joined Feb. 2008	Quote from isna_la_wica: Matthew 22:34-40 Amplified Bible (AMP) 34 Now when the Pharisees heard that He had silenced (muzzled) the Sadducees, they gathered together. 35 One of them, a lawyer [an expert in Mosaic Law], asked Jesus a question, to test Him: 36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37 And Jesus replied to him, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself [that is, unselfishly seek the best or higher good for others].’ 40 The whole Law and the [writings of the] Prophets depend on these two commandments.” Very true. We must indeed love the Lord before else. That is why salvation is reserved for members of the Church Jesus founded. When a Protestant refuses to give up his false man-made denomination, and the false doctrines that the Protestant denominations preach, and refuses to convert to the True Church, that Protestant is not loving God with all his heart. "...Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." --Jesus (Matthew 18:3)
4/25/2017 5:19:34 PM	A question for those who do not believe in Hell.
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	I see my favorite fan on here follows me around like a little puppy dog. In a time frame of less than 1 month he has filled the Christian only section with no less than 6 posts on anti-Trinity rhetoric, 6 posts on hell plus a number of others. The sad thing is he keeps continuing to ruin the forums with his ad nauseum, multiple repeated threads & continuous worn out diatribes repeated over & over again. He accuses others of the same but his hypocrisy is once again evident. He keeps 'fanning the flames.' I feel quite popular now, as most are aimed directly at me. I hope many read my posts now. Thank you! I feel privileged & leap for joy (Mt 5:10-12). However, he went lower than I ever suspected. Usually, he selects quotes out of the context they were written in, making it look different from what the poster said. Then he went further--to quoting heretical JW literature that was easily exposed & shown to be riddled with blatant distortions. Now he has gone to the bottom of the barrel, quoting vitriolic distortions from an avowed atheistic, God hating & Scripture blaspheming website (by their own admission), all to vainly try to discredit factual info I am posting, which he cannot refute in a normal fashion. Stooping to this level, he truly lost all credibility, with what little he had before. He will no longer waste my time & hopefully others as well, other than prayer for him. May God have mercy on him & take note of the damage he is causing to His people. Now back to the topic about hell. As to connecting the dots on whether there is fire in sheol/hades & hell aka gehenna aka the lake of fire, this simple, easily understandable act of CORRELATING SCRIPTURES throughout the Bible, is NOT child's play or a puzzle. It is part of Acts 17:11--'noble character of searching the (whole of) Scripture to see if these things are true.' It is also part of 'rightly dividing (cutting a straight furrow in accurately handling) the word of truth.' If you have ever planted a garden like myself, digging, planting straight rows, weeding, watering & cultivating, you know how much hard work occurs. Yet in the end it yields a wonderful harvest--& to God goes the glory! So it is with seeking the Lord & His wisdom (James 1:5-9; 3:13-18), asking for His grace in opening our minds to understand the Scriptures as we diligently search. We joy in the unfolding of His whole counsel on a subject & discovering the living God's revelation, so we know Him in a more deeper, loving relationship. DOT #1: God is consuming fire. That is the nature of God. (see prior post for addl verses) Since God is eternal, since God does not change (Malachi 3:6) & since He is consuming fire, the fire can endure forever. @Deut 5:25; 24:17 Why should we die? For this great FIRE WILL CONSUME US; if we hear the voice of YHWH our ELOHIM any longer, then we will die...And to the eyes of the sons of Israel the appearance of the glory of YHWH was like a CONSUMING FIRE on the mt top. @Deut 4:24 "For YHWH your ELOHIM is CONSUMING FIRE, a jealous God. (Heb 12:29) @Deut 9:3 "Know therefore today that it is YHWH your ELOHIM who is crossing over before U as CONSUMING FIRE. He will destroy them & He will subdue them before U, so that U may drive them out & destroy them quickly, just as the LORD has spoken to U. @Jer 21:12 Administer justice every morning; deliver the person who has been robbed from the power of his oppressor, so that My wrath may not go forth like FIRE & BURN WITH NONE TO EXTINGUISH IT, BECAUSE OF THEIR EVIL DEEDS. If the nature of the eternal God is indeed consuming fire (& omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent), which Scripture repeatedly teaches as the truth, THEN we would expect to find demonstrations in Scripture that show God’s fire in both the physical (material) & spiritual (immaterial) realms BECAUSE God’s nature is spirit, which allows Him to exist everywhere & WHEN He chooses to do so, manifest Himself in all His attributes. DOT #2 God's consuming fire can exist everywhere in the universe, in both the physical (material) realm & in the spiritual (immaterial) realm. Scripture shows it exists in both, including Sheol aka Abaddon aka the Pit, Hades, Gehenna aka Lake of Fire aka the Second Death aka hell. @Lev 10:1-3 Now Nadab & Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took their respective firepans & after putting fire in them, placed incense on it & offered strange fire before YHWH, which He had not commanded them. 2And FIRE CAME OUT FROM THE PRESENCE OF YHWH & CONSUMED them & they died before YHWH. 3Then Moses said to Aaron, "It is what YHWH spoke, saying, 'By those who come near Me I will be treated AS HOLY & before ALL the people I will be HONORED.' @Rev 16:8,9 The fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun & it was allowed to scorch people WITH FIRE. 9They were scorched by the fierce heat & they CURSED THE NAME OF GOD who had power over these plagues. THEY DID NOT REPENT AND GIVE HIM GLORY. @Deut 32:22 For a FIRE has been kindled by My anger: *it burns to lowest Sheol; [spiritual realm where departed souls/spirits go after physical death; a fire from His anger burns there] *it consumes the earth & its produce; [physical realm, God’s judgment] *it ignites the foundations of the mountains. [physical realm—lava, fire & brimstone] @Job 31:12 For it is a fire that devours to the PLACE of Abaddon [Heb. Place of ruin; another name for Sheol, the spiritual realm of departed souls/spirits] & it would root up all my gain (increase).[God’s fire again being manifested in both the spiritual & the physical realms] @Luke 16:22-24 “The time came when the beggar DIED & the angels carried him TO Abraham’s side (bosom). The rich man ALSO DIED & was BURIED. 23 IN HADES, WHERE he was IN TORMENT, he looked up & saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me & send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water & cool my tongue, because I am in TORMENT IN THIS FIRE.’ @Isaiah 33:14-17 Sinners in Zion are terrified; trembling has seized the godless. "Who among us can live with the CONSUMING FIRE? Who among us can live with CONTINUAL BURNING?" 15He who walks righteously & speaks with sincerity, he who rejects unjust gain & shakes his hands so that they hold no bribe; he who stops his ears from hearing about bloodshed & shuts his eyes from looking upon evil; he will dwell on the heights, his refuge will be the impregnable rock...Your eyes will see the King in His beauty. @Isaiah 30:30,31 And YHWH will cause His voice of authority to be heard & the descending of His arm to be seen in fierce anger & in the flame of CONSUMING FIRE, in cloudburst, downpour & hailstones. For at the voice of YHWH Assyria will be terrified, when He strikes with the rod. @Isaiah 66:16 For YHWH will execute JUDGMENT BY FIRE & by His sword on all flesh & those slain by YHWH will be many.
4/25/2017 5:23:04 PM	A question for those who do not believe in Hell.
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	(continued) @Mt 18:9 It is better for you to ENTER INTO LIFE with only 1 eye, than to remain in possession of 2 eyes but be thrown into the GEHENNA OF FIRE. @Mark 9:45,47 It is better for you to ENTER INTO LIFE lame, rather than having your two feet to be CAST INTO GEHENNA, INTO THE FIRE THAT WILL NEVER BE QUENCHED...It is better for you to ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into the GEHENNA OF FIRE. @Mt 5:22 Whoever says to his brother 'Raca,' shall be answerable to the Sanhedrin & that whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be liable to the GEHENNA OF FIRE. @James 3:5,6 The tongue...a restless evil...is placed within us spotting & soiling our whole nature & setting the whole round of our lives ON FIRE, being itself set ON FIRE BY GEHENNA. @Rev 19:20 These both were cast ALIVE--into the LAKE OF FIRE BURNING WITH BRIMSTONE. @Rev 20:15 And whosoever was NOT found written in the book of life WAS CAST INTO--THE LAKE OF FIRE. @Rev 21:8 But the fearful & unbelieving & the abominable & murderers & the sexually immoral & sorcerers & idolaters & all liars, shall have their part IN THE LAKE WICH BURNS WITH FIRE & BRIMSTONE; which is the SECOND DEATH. @Jude 1:22,23 Be merciful to those who doubt; save others by snatching THEM FROM THE FIRE @Num 16:4-7 When Moses heard it, he fell on his face & he said to KORAH & ALL HIS COMPANY, “In the morning the Lord will show who is His & who is holy & will bring him near to Him...Do this: take censers (250, vs 17), Korah & all his company; put fire in them & put incense on them before the Lord tomorrow & the man whom the Lord chooses shall be the holy one. You have gone too far...Depart, I pray you,, from the tents of these wicked men & touch nothing of theirs, lest you be CONSUMED in all their sins.” So they & all that belonged to them went down alive into SHEOL & the earth closed over them & they perished from the midst of the assembly. And FIRE CAME OUT FROM YHWH & CONSUMED the 250 men offering the incense. @Jude 1:5-7,11,13 THOUGH U ALREADY KNOW ALL THIS, I want to REMIND U that the Lord at one time DELIVERED HIS PEOPLE out of Egypt, but later DESTROYED those who DID NOT BELIEVE. And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept IN DARKNESS, bound with everlasting chains FOR JUDGMENT ON THE GREAT DAY. IN LIKE MANNER [just as, same as, so also], Sodom & Gomorrah & the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality & perversion. THEY SERVE AS AN EXAMPLE OF THOSE WHO SUFFER THE PUNISHMENT OF ETERNAL FIRE. They are like wild waves of the sea, churning up the foam of their shameful deeds...Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaam’s error; they have been destroyed in KORAH'S REBELLION...They are like wandering stars, DOOMED FOREVER TO BLACKEST DARKNESS...And PROPHECY ALSO TO THESE did the seventh from Adam -- Enoch -- saying, 'He has come to JUDGE all these people. He has come to convict all these ungodly sinners for all the ungodly works they have done & all the harsh words they have said about Him." You will notice here that Jude said those he was writing to were already familiar with what he was saying. These things had ALREADY BEEN TAUGHT. (Heb 6:2) You will also notice that he lists 3 separate groups & states all of these serve as an example of those who will suffer the punishment of unending fire. He also includes in this a fourth group of wicked people that will infiltrate the Christian assemblies, those who had been prophesied about long beforehand, even by Enoch. All these occur at the great white throne judgment, the great day of judgment after the old earth has fled & there isn't any sea & the wicked can no longer hide from their Judge. (Rev 20:11-15) Mt 12:41 The men of Nineveh will STAND AT THE JUDGMENT with THIS GENERATION & CONDEMN IT; for they REPENTED AT THE PREACHING OF JONAH & now One greater than Jonah is here. Mt 10:15 Truly, I say to you, it will be more bearable on THE DAY OF JUDGMENT for the land of Sodom & Gomorrah than for that town. Mt 11:23,24 And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to heaven? No, you will DESCEND TO HADES! For if the miracles that were performed in you had happened in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. 24But I tell you that it will be MORE BEARABLE for Sodom ON THE DAY OF JUDGMENT THAN FOR YOU.” Ps 149:9 To execute the judgment written against them. This is the glorious privilege of his faithful ones.
4/25/2017 8:44:21 PM	A question for those who do not believe in Hell.
isna_la_wica Brantford, ON 63, joined Mar. 2012	I see my favorite fan on here follows me around like a little puppy dog. In a time frame of less than 1 month he has filled the Christian only section with no less than 6 posts on anti-Trinity rhetoric, 6 posts on hell plus a number of others. The sad thing is he keeps continuing to ruin the forums with his ad nauseum, multiple repeated threads & continuous worn out diatribes repeated over & over again. He accuses others of the same but his hypocrisy is once again evident. He keeps 'fanning the flames.' I feel quite popular now, as most are aimed directly at me. I hope many read my posts now. Thank you! I feel privileged & leap for joy (Mt 5:10-12). However, he went lower than I ever suspected. Usually, he selects quotes out of the context they were written in, making it look different from what the poster said. Then he went further--to quoting heretical JW literature that was easily exposed & shown to be riddled with blatant distortions. Now he has gone to the bottom of the barrel, quoting vitriolic distortions from an avowed atheistic, God hating & Scripture blaspheming website (by their own admission), all to vainly try to discredit factual info I am posting, which he cannot refute in a normal fashion. Stooping to this level, he truly lost all credibility, with what little he had before. He will no longer waste my time & hopefully others as well, other than prayer for him. May God have mercy on him & take note of the damage he is causing to His people. Doggone it Doc, some people get all the attention ! Lol, I feel like the middle child again ! I had a peek last week, and laughed over his threads. He had to use his girl friends profile to bump the one to keep it going. A family down the block to me has a Chihuahua. I`ve nick named him BigD og. He really thinks he is a big brave feller when he is barking behind the safety of the window. BigD-oggy
4/26/2017 11:42:26 AM	A question for those who do not believe in Hell.
kb2222 Jacksonville, FL 76, joined Apr. 2011	Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT) Kill Witches (Exodus 22:17 NAB) Kill Homosexuals (Leviticus 20:13 NAB) Kill Fortunetellers (Leviticus 20:27 NAB) Death for Hitting Dad (Exodus 21:15 NAB) Death for Cursing Parents (Proverbs 20:20 NAB, Leviticus 20:9 NLT) Death for Adultery (Leviticus 20:10 NLT) Death for Fornication (Leviticus 21:9 NAB) Death to Followers of Other Religions (Exodus 22:19 NAB) Kill Nonbelievers (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB) Kill False Prophets (Zechariah 13:3 NAB) Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God (Deuteronomy 13:13-18 NLT) Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB) Kill Followers of Other Religions. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB, Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT) Death for Blasphemy (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT) Kill False Prophets (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT, Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT) Infidels and Gays Should Die (Romans 1:24-32 NLT) Kill Anyone who Approaches the Tabernacle (Numbers 1:48-51 NLT) Kill People for Working on the Sabbath (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT) Kill Sons of Sinners (Isaiah 14:21 NAB) QUESTION: Do you "Christians" actually believe God/Jesus would order man to stone and burn people to death at the stake and then torment them in a fiery Hell for eternity for all these absurd reasons?
4/26/2017 3:45:09 PM	A question for those who do not believe in Hell.
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 64, joined Feb. 2008	Why do you think these reasons are absurd, KB?
4/26/2017 4:12:45 PM	A question for those who do not believe in Hell.
kb2222 Jacksonville, FL 76, joined Apr. 2011	You don't think they are absurd reasons, Ludlow? [Edited 4/26/2017 4:14:07 PM ]
4/26/2017 4:51:12 PM	A question for those who do not believe in Hell.
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 64, joined Feb. 2008	No.
4/26/2017 5:00:26 PM	A question for those who do not believe in Hell.
kb2222 Jacksonville, FL 76, joined Apr. 2011	You are morally and spiritually sick/insane, Ludlow, and no more a Christian than Satan and you really should seek psychological help.
4/27/2017 11:41:31 AM	A question for those who do not believe in Hell.
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 64, joined Feb. 2008	What is the real sickness? What is the real insanity? Believing that Hell doesn't exist. Believing that one can escape Hell without repenting of sin.
4/27/2017 12:17:21 PM	A question for those who do not believe in Hell.
kb2222 Jacksonville, FL 76, joined Apr. 2011	Quote from ludlowlowell: What is the real sickness? What is the real insanity? Believing that you (Ludlow) can be wickedly murderous in your heart towards your fellowman and consistently blasphemous towards God/Jesus with your murderous teachings and escape accountability. [Edited 4/27/2017 12:19:08 PM ]
4/27/2017 1:47:17 PM	A question for those who do not believe in Hell.
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 64, joined Feb. 2008	Killing in self-defene, or legitimate authority executing people in justice, is not murderous.
4/27/2017 1:56:32 PM	A question for those who do not believe in Hell.
kb2222 Jacksonville, FL 76, joined Apr. 2011	All those reasons for killing people I posted are not about "self-defense" and your murderous beliefs and teachings about God are tantamount to a complete rejection of the teachings of Jesus. You are a sick/corrupt/wicked-minded man, Ludlow.
4/27/2017 2:37:28 PM	A question for those who do not believe in Hell.
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 64, joined Feb. 2008	Jesus is not the all-forgiving sweet little marshmallow you think He is, KB. Jesus forgives REPENTANT sinners only. The rest He sends to Hell forever.
4/27/2017 4:10:25 PM	A question for those who do not believe in Hell.
kb2222 Jacksonville, FL 76, joined Apr. 2011	You are a pathetically sick/corrupt/wicked-minded man, Ludlow.
4/27/2017 4:18:16 PM	A question for those who do not believe in Hell.
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 64, joined Feb. 2008	KB, the Bible says that the devil and his angels are in Hell, or will be in Hell, depending on how you interpret it. So if God is not shy about sending fallen angels to Hell, all of whom committed only one mortal sin, why would God be shy about sending unrepentant human beings there, who have committed many, many mortal sins?
4/27/2017 4:36:14 PM	A question for those who do not believe in Hell.
kb2222 Jacksonville, FL 76, joined Apr. 2011	You are morally and spiritually sick/insane, Ludlow, and no more a Christian than Satan and you really should seek psychological help.
4/27/2017 5:00:24 PM	A question for those who do not believe in Hell.
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 64, joined Feb. 2008	Why can't you answer the question? If God is not shy about sending fallen angels to Hell, why would He be shy about sending human beings there?
4/27/2017 5:21:01 PM	A question for those who do not believe in Hell.
kb2222 Jacksonville, FL 76, joined Apr. 2011	Quote from ludlowlowell: Why can't you answer the question? If God is not shy about sending fallen angels to Hell, why would He be shy about sending human beings there? You are a sick corrupt man, Ludlow. You did not directly answer the question I asked you and now you are asking me the above. Answer my question, Ludlow. Do you actually believe God/Jesus would order man to stone and burn people to death at the stake and then torment them in a fiery Hell for eternity for all those reasons I listed? [Edited 4/27/2017 5:21:33 PM ]
4/27/2017 5:45:39 PM	A question for those who do not believe in Hell.
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 64, joined Feb. 2008	Do you actually believe that God sent Lucifer and the angels who followed Lucifer to Hell for some undisclosed incident that happened before God created the human race? I do, because the scripture says exactly that. [Edited 4/27/2017 5:46:36 PM ]

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