Is Hell for all eternity?

4/18/2017 4:46:01 PM	Is Hell for all eternity?
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 64, joined Feb. 2008	"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where tge beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night FOR EVER AND EVER." --Revelation 20:10 (emphasis added) Meet singles at DateHookup.dating, we're 100% free! Join now!
4/19/2017 9:54:35 AM	Is Hell for all eternity?
kb2222 Jacksonville, FL 76, joined Apr. 2011	If God/Jesus hates the sin but loves the sinner why do you believe God/Jesus would torment anyone day and night FOR EVER AND EVER, Ludlow?
4/19/2017 10:23:29 AM	Is Hell for all eternity?
iam_resurrected Reno, NV 46, joined Jul. 2014	We have already some what "agreed," (if) someone just chooses to do ill will unto others and never is repentative. That person "will never" be rewarded anything but, what that person done unto others!! And that is not spending eternity in the presence of Yahweh/Yahshua. But rather, in the "Lake of Fire" being tormented!! It was only designed for THOSE who just wanted to always hurt others and refuse God!! So "those" who fit the qualifications should therefore, reap their just reward...
5/12/2017 12:26:50 AM	Is Hell for all eternity?
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	Prior to connecting the dots illustration, to get the in-depth points I have made so far on the topic of the nature of God & His character--in dealing with sinful humanity in rebellion against Him & faithful, obedient people--see the threads below. Scripture describes what happens to people AFTER THEY DIE & AFTER THEY ARE RESURRECTED. It also describes the places they go to & the conditions within those places. One also needs to define what happens to the material & immaterial parts of man that separate when a person physically dies. One also needs to describe the difference between fire in the physical realm and fire in the spiritual realm. Does Judaism Believe in Life After Death? Once you read, 'Jewish Views of the Afterlife' by Rabbi Dr. Simcha Paull Raphael, you will never again say 'no' in answer to this question. Originally published in 1994, this book has become a classic, the most comprehensive examination of life after death in Judaism available in English. The plan of the book is “a study of Jewish texts... a survey of ideas of life after death throughout the history of Judaism.” It covers over 4000 years of Jewish history & teaching on the afterlife. It offers a contemporary statement on ways of understanding the afterlife journey of the soul from a spiritual point of view. Rabbi Zalman Schachter-Shalomi, the father of the Jewish Renewal Movement, wrote the Forward to the book. We need to understand with spiritual & scriptural discernment who God is & why He created these places under the power of the curse & under the law of sin & death. Then we can examine the definition of these places & the characteristics of these places as well as the characteristics of WHO is inside them. This aspect of God’s nature is not separate from the gospel message; that is why it is called the gospel OF GOD. https://DateHookup.dating/thread-1467999.htm A Question 4 Those Not Believing in Hell 'Beyond Death: Theological & Philosophical Reflections of Life after Death' edited by Rabbi D. Cohn-Sherbok, C. Lewin Until long after the exile, the Jewish people shared the view of the entire ancient world that the dead continue to exist in a shadowy realm of the nether world where they live a dull, ghostly existence. A number of expressions are used to refer to the realm of the dead. In Psalm 28:1 & 88:5, 'bor' refers to a pit. In Ps 6:6 as well as in Job 28:22 & 30:23, 'mavet' is used in a similar sense. In Ps 22:16 the expression 'afar mavet' refers to the dust of death. In Exodus 15:2 & Jonah 2:7 the earth ('eretz') is described as swallowing up the dead & in Ezek 31:14 the expression 'eretz tachitit' refers to the nether parts of the earth where the dead dwell. Finally the word 'she'ol' is frequently used to refer to the dwelling of the dead in the netherworld [in the invisible spiritual realm beyond the physical realm]. The writers of this BOOK on Jewish beliefs about what happens beyond death, cover rabbinic thought on the reality of hell in Jewish belief in ch. 4. They summarize their survey of rabbinic teaching concerning the reality of the concept of hell. Rabbi Dan Cohn-Sherbok emphasizes that such a belief has been a central feature of Judaism for centuries despite the facts that today many Jews find it difficult to accept it. 'From this brief survey we can see that the doctrine of hell is a fundamental tenet of rabbinic Judaism. Whatever horrible descriptions of hell are to be found in Christian & Islamic sources, these can be matched by equally horrid accounts in Jewish sources. Thus, it is simply not true to say that Judaism rejects the doctrine of eternal damnation. How has it happened that Jewish scholars have ignored the doctrine of Hell in Judaism? In the words of Rabbi Dr. Solomon Schechter, 'any attempt at an orderly & complete system of rabbinic theology is an impossible task.' This has led to widespread confusion as to what are the central tenets of the Jewish faith. This applies to the teachings about the afterlife because there is no definitive authoritative status for them, so many Jewish thinkers today simply ignore the rabbinical teachings concerning the reality of hell & its punishments. https://DateHookup.dating/thread-1459680.htm Hell Nothing More Than Karma... https://DateHookup.dating/thread-953343.htm Life After Death Experiences http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/features/.premium-1.638100 The view of the afterlife held by ancient Jews, which can be surmised from passing references throughout the Bible, is that all people, Jews & gentiles, go to a netherworld called She’ol, a deep & dark place in which shadowy spirits called refa’im dwell. These could be summoned by the living to answer questions (1 Sam 28:3–25), though this practice is forbidden (Lev 20:27). The website “Judaism 101” still finds it necessary to state that “contrary to popular belief, Judaism does believe in an afterlife”.
5/12/2017 12:33:10 AM	Is Hell for all eternity?
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	(continued) https://DateHookup.dating/thread-1024656.htm Impartial, Righteous & Merciful Judgment https://DateHookup.dating/thread-858239.htm Will All (Everyone) Be Saved p.7-12 One single act of sin through one man brought the reign of sin & death & condemnation to all mankind but each of us is responsible before God for sins we commit in thought, word or deed. Thru 1 man's trespass SIN against God came into the world (Rom 5:12) & the reign of DEATH thru sinning spread to all men, bringing God's impartial, holy & just condemnation for all men (vss 16-20). 1 single sacrifice made life & reconciliation available for all mankind but each of us before God is responsible to repent & be reconciled to God by belief in Christ & live for Him. Thru 1 man's act of sacrificial righteous obedience, those who BY FAITH receive the abundance of grace & the free gift of righteousness, reign in life thru the 1 man Jesus Christ. (2 Cor 5:14-21) BY FAITH IN the Lord Jesus Christ (Rom 5:1-3) we have: been justified by His blood (vs 9) & have peace with the Father; we have standing access into His grace (vs 2); joy in our hope of sharing in God's glory & in the endurance of our sufferings that results in proven character(vs 3); power & salvation through Him from God's wrath while still powerless & sinners (vs 9); been reconciled to the Father by the death of His Son & even more will be saved by the life of Christ & even more from that we rejoice in the Father's received reconciliation. 1. Though God Wills It, Not All Are Saved (Mt 7:14,21,22; 22:14; Lk 13:22-28; Rom 9:27) 2. Though God Wills It, Not All Will Come to the Knowledge of the Truth (2 Tim 3:7) 3. Though God Wills It, Not All Repent But Perish (Lk 13:3,5; Mt 21:32; Rom 1:32; 2:4,5,8) 4. Though God Wills It, Not All Will Enter the Kingdom of the Father & The Lamb (James 4:12; Jn 1:4; 5:40; I Cor 6:9; Heb 5:9: I Cor 15:50; Mt 25:46; Jn 3:5; Mt 18:3; Mk 10:15; Mt 25:30; Mt 10:33; Jn 3:36; Mt 10:28; Lk 12:5; Mt 5:20; Mt 16:25,26; Ps 49:7,8; Mt 15:3ff, 13; Lk 8:11,12; Heb 4:1-3,6; Lk 20:15-18; Mt 23:13,33; Mt 7:21-23; Jn 6:39,40; Mt 18:8 (Mk 9:33ff); Mt 8:11,12; Mt 25:10-13; Lk 13:25-28; Gal 4:29,30) 5. Though God Wills It, There Is A Consistent Teaching from Genesis to Revelation of Two Classes of People: Believer VS Unbelievers (Jn 3:12-21; I Pet 2:7-9); The Wicked Vs The Righteous (Gen 18:25; Mal 3:18; Ps 7:8,9); The Ungodly Vs The Godly (Titus 2:12; Ps 1:1-6; ; Those Born of the Spirit Vs Those Born Of The Flesh (Jn 3:3-8; Gal 4:21-31); The Vessels of Wrath Vs Vessels Of Mercy (Rom 9:21-23), Illegitimate Vs Legitimate Children of God (Heb 12:4-11); Etc. Story: "I hear U dismissed your preacher. What was wrong?" The friend said, "Well, he kept telling us to turn to Jesus as we keep heading toward hell on the wide, easy road to destruction." The man said, "What does the new one say?" The friend said, "He says the same thing.” "So what's the difference?" The friend said, "The 1st one sounded like he was glad of it, but the new man sounds like it is breaking his heart." https://DateHookup.dating/thread-1307710.htm God Of Old & NTs, The Same? p.2 http://www.livingbiblestudies.org/study/TT45/011.html We cannot talk about God--Who He is & what He is like--without talking about His wrath. In Scripture we first 'define' it, then 'describe' it, then understand how to be 'delivered' from it. The 1st characteristic is that it is deserved . The 2nd is that sometimes—not always—it is delayed. The 3rd is the certainty of it's coming (Ps 7:11,12; Rom 2:4,5). And the 4th aspect is that there IS deliverance from it through repentance & confessing the Lord Jesus in one's life, as evidenced by a valid living faith day by day, expressing itself through love. To see the true Biblical God as HE reveals Himself in Scripture, is quite shocking. It exposes our 'false' gods. We do NOT determine who God is & how He should think & act; we submit to a holy & righteous God as HE is revealed in the WHOLE OF SCRIPTURE, loving Him with our whole being & loving our neighbor as ourselves in the power of the Holy Spirit. *Our God is justified & impartial in His anger & carries it out righteously & blamelessly. It is WE who have PROVOKED Him to righteous anger & bring on ourselves recompense. https://DateHookup.dating/forums.aspx?p=FORUMPOSTS&forumthreadID=1125025&pageSize=15&startAt=1#47117825 Down Down Down Into That Lake of Fire https://DateHookup.dating/thread-495790.htm Man's Justice Questions God's https://DateHookup.dating/thread-1281763.htm Adam's Disobedience Horrific https://DateHookup.dating/thread-1132262.htm What R We Storing Up 4 Ourselves https://DateHookup.dating/thread-1170747.htm What R We Storing Up 4 Ourselves In Life https://DateHookup.dating/thread-1183414.htm What Is It We R Storing Up https://DateHookup.dating/thread-1453542.htm Different Degrees of Punishment in Hell https://DateHookup.dating/thread-1326344.htm Did Judas Go To Hell Here is a summary of my Connecting Dots Illustration so far on the reality of the existence of fire in the places where people go after they die & after they are resurrected. This simple, easily understandable act of CORRELATING SCRIPTURES throughout the Bible, is NOT child's play. It is part of Acts 17:11--'noble character of searching the (whole of) Scripture to see if these things are true.' It is also part of 'rightly dividing (cutting a straight furrow in accurately handling)the word of truth.'
5/14/2017 11:36:36 AM	Is Hell for all eternity?
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	I see my favorite fan is up to his old tricks of quoting me out of context again and not showing any understanding of what I post or he wouldn't embarrass himself time & again. Anyone reading my posts can can clearly see it. Compare what he says with what I wrote. In his partial quote I made from the Rabbi Cohn-Sherboc's book, 'Beyond Death: Theological & Philosophical Reflections of Life after Death' he states I am wrong in quoting from the book! His argument is not with me but the rabbi! Also he totally ignored the first part of what he quoted, where it says this was a shared view 'until long after the exile' and it wasn't one they took from the Rome & Egypt. He also ignored the last part of that book where another rabbi commented that there was indeed a variety of views in Judaism but that there was a consistent overall belief in an afterlife. Our pseudo-resident Jew emphatically states Jews did not believe in an afterlife. This Jew reviews the literature over time & says as a Jew reviewing Jewish teaching on the afterlife that Jews indeed believed in one. Then he comes back to my first quote concerning the book by Rabbi Simcha Raphael, 'Does Judaism Believe in an After Life' and show his ignorance again & that he apparently doesn't read what I wrote. He stated this rabbi 'knows his "movmement" or sect of the Jews. Yet this book is now a classic on covering the whole of 4000 years of Jewish teaching from all persuasions and has become the most comprehensive examination of life after death in Judaism available in English. In his own words Rabbi Raphael says that the plan of this book “a study of Jewish texts... a survey of ideas of life after death throughout the history of Judaism.” So again he totally misses that this isn't this rabbi's own little sect view but the comprensive view of all Jews for 4000 years! Our DHU resident psuedo-Jew has indeed spoken & shown himself to be foolish. And his quoting me of my summary of the passage of Roman 5:12-18 is again totally embarrassing this poster trying to once again denigrate the KJV in its use of 'condemnation.' He wants to make it look like there is no 'condemnation', quoting Rom 5:12 as if that settles the matter. Yet that is not where the word condemnation is used in that passage! He thinks again you readers are so dumb you won't read the passage & expose him once again. And this one is so condemning & he can't deny it. Compare the CLV with the KJV of Romans 5:16, where my SUMMARY statement was pointing to in terms of condemnation & its CORRECT USAGE IN THE BIBLE! CLV Rom 5:16 And not as through one act of sinning is the gratuity. For, indeed, the JUDGMENT is out of one into CONDEMNATION, yet the grace is out of many offenses into a just award." KJV Rom 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the JUDGMENT was by one to CONDEMNATION, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. Not only is this true here but with over 50 other translations of the Bible, many being modern ones! He not only lost credibility long ago but continues to pound more nails in his coffin with examples like this. [Edited 5/14/2017 11:39:42 AM ]
5/14/2017 12:30:28 PM	Is Hell for all eternity?
kb2222 Jacksonville, FL 76, joined Apr. 2011	Brashdoc keeps me blocked because he can't stand a honest discussion if that discussion leads him to have to think outside of his church indoctrinated fundamentalism. But for the benefit of you who might be persuaded by his lengthy theological commentaries I will ask him this one question. Brashdoc, if God/Jesus hates the sin but loves the sinner why do you believe God/Jesus would order man to kill people for all sorts of reasons and then torment them and others day and night in a fiery Hell FOR EVER AND EVER?
5/14/2017 1:20:07 PM	Is Hell for all eternity?
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 64, joined Feb. 2008	KB, would you say that you have a kind of urantia indoctrinated fundamentalism yourself? [Edited 5/14/2017 1:21:03 PM ]
5/14/2017 1:37:12 PM	Is Hell for all eternity?
kb2222 Jacksonville, FL 76, joined Apr. 2011	Quote from ludlowlowell: KB, would you say that you have a kind of urantia indoctrinated fundamentalism yourself? Yes, I would, Ludlow. My quest for truth past the murderous characterization of God in the Bible contrary to the teachings of Jesus and my own sense of morality started long ago and led me to The Urantia Book. You, however. as a matter of choice are not so fortunate and that's why you lie, bear false witness and evade issues and speak illogically so much. As for example in believing and teaching that Pope Francis is the infallible representative of God on one hand while on the other hand calling him a "utter idiot." I asked you my question first, Ludlow, and you haven't answered so how about it, Ludlow... if God/Jesus hates the sin but loves the sinner why do you believe God/Jesus would order man to kill people for all sorts of reasons and then torment them and others day and night in a fiery Hell FOR EVER AND EVER? [Edited 5/14/2017 1:37:51 PM ]
5/14/2017 2:46:35 PM	Is Hell for all eternity?
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 64, joined Feb. 2008	To answer your second question, because God is a God of justice as well as God of nercy. He is like a prudent parole board that paroles the remorseful but not the unremorseful. To answer your first question, I distinguish between the office and the man.
5/14/2017 5:37:40 PM	Is Hell for all eternity?
isna_la_wica Brantford, ON 63, joined Mar. 2012	Prior to connecting the dots illustration, to get the in-depth points I have made so far on the topic of the nature of God & His character--in dealing with sinful humanity in rebellion against Him & faithful, obedient people--see the threads below. Scripture describes what happens to people AFTER THEY DIE & AFTER THEY ARE RESURRECTED. It also describes the places they go to & the conditions within those places. One also needs to define what happens to the material & immaterial parts of man that separate when a person physically dies. One also needs to describe the difference between fire in the physical realm and fire in the spiritual realm. I concur, we need to differentiate , what happens to the material & immaterial parts,when a person physically dies. Its why I hate the catch all word "hell". To me it is like using the word "thingy", or what-cha-may-call-it". And it leads to confused beliefs about the nature of God. I suffered for years because of faulty teaching about "hell". Does Judaism Believe in Life After Death? Once you read, 'Jewish Views of the Afterlife' by Rabbi Dr. Simcha Paull Raphael, you will never again say 'no' in answer to this question. Yes, they do, I will have to more to say on this later. One single act of sin through one man brought the reign of sin & death & condemnation to all mankind but each of us is responsible before God for sins we commit in thought, word or deed. Thru 1 man's trespass SIN against God came into the world (Rom 5:12) & the reign of DEATH thru sinning spread to all men, bringing God's impartial, holy & just condemnation for all men (vss 16-20). It is our sin, and our sin alone that separates us from God. I am not in support of the "Total Depravity of man doctrine, that led to the Original Sin doctrine which started the belief that we inherit sins. No, we can not blame others for our sin. And sin entering the world is not the same as inheriting, sin. We inherit the consequences of sin, a "fallen " world that allows sin to thrive. Being born into a home where mold resides because of the failure maybe, of an ancestor to maintain it.But you are not held to account for the sin of another. 1 single sacrifice made life & reconciliation available for all mankind but each of us before God is responsible to repent & be reconciled to God by belief in Christ & live for Him. Thru 1 man's act of sacrificial righteous obedience, those who BY FAITH receive the abundance of grace & the free gift of righteousness, reign in life thru the 1 man Jesus Christ. (2 Cor 5:14-21) God reconciled him self to all, at the Cross. He stand at the door and knocks , but not open the door to him and reconciles them selves to God, even God did to them. I agree with that. 1 single sacrifice made life & reconciliation available for all mankind but each of us before God is responsible to repent & be reconciled to God by belief in Christ & live for Him Where I might be varying is in this with the "repentance". I think many put the cart before the horse and insist that one must repent prior to meeting with Christ. I disagree with that, and relate it to putting the cart before the horse. You do not have to clean your self up, get your self "right" before approaching the throne of grace. Jesus accepts us as we are. Dirty old mongrel, cold and hungry, been fighting with other strays? He welcomes us in as we are. First he will feed us, let us warm up by the fire, later "clean us up", teach us proper manners. Repentance is an ongoing work. It never stops actually. For as we grow? Our standards do as well, and we will miss the mark. Not the legal writings of rules , but of his commandment that he said was the greatest of them all. In regards to this, I cite Luke 23:39-43 Luke 23:39-43 Amplified Bible, Classic Edition (AMPC) 39 One of the criminals who was suspended kept up a railing at Him, saying, Are You not the Christ (the Messiah)? Rescue Yourself and us [[a]from death]! 40 But the other one reproved him, saying, Do you not even fear God, seeing you yourself are under the same sentence of condemnation and suffering the same penalty? 41 And we indeed suffer it justly, receiving the due reward of our actions; but this Man has done nothing out of the way [nothing strange or eccentric or perverse or unreasonable]. 42 Then he said to Jesus, Lord, remember me when You come [c]in Your kingly glory! 43 And He answered him, Truly I tell you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise. What did the thief do? And keep in mind, just seconds before, he still was an "evil doer". 1, he acknowledged God 2. he acknowledged that his nature was wrong 3. he realized he needed Christ and asked Christ to accept him. Acknowledging that you are sin full, is not the same as repentance. It leads to repentance, is the birth of repentance, but is not the act of repentance . We cannot fight that nature of ours on our own, and get "good" enough to come to Christ. It is Christ that leads us and helps us in repentance. I have no idea, how many I have talked to about Christ, and been told "I am not good enough, or cannot stay of drugs / alcohol if they are an addict, for him to care about me. So, what I am saying may seem small things to fixate over, but as one who has been there , I can say its not. This is my fav verse: Hebrews 4:14-16Amplified Bible 15 For we do not have a High Priest Who is unable to understand and sympathize and have a shared feeling with our weaknesses and infirmities and liability to the assaults of temptation, but One Who has been tempted in every respect as we are, yet without sinning. We have to realize the above, in order to manifest the one below. 16 Let us then fearlessly and confidently and boldly draw near to the throne of grace (the throne of God’s unmerited favor to us sinners), that we may receive mercy [for our failures] and find grace to help in good time for every need [appropriate help and well-timed help, coming just when we need it]. Just my thoughts on your post Doc.
5/14/2017 8:20:37 PM	Is Hell for all eternity?
kb2222 Jacksonville, FL 76, joined Apr. 2011	Quote from ludlowlowell: To answer your second question, because God is a God of justice as well as God of nercy. He is like a prudent parole board that paroles the remorseful but not the unremorseful. To answer your first question, I distinguish between the office and the man. You are a sick corrupt/wicked/ungodly man to assert God/Jesus would order man to stone and burn people to death at the stake and then torment them in a fiery Hell for eternity for all those ridiculous reasons I have many times posted, Ludlow. And the distinction you say you make between the office and the man with regards to the Pope is utter nonsense. Pope Francis is no more the infallible representative of God than you are and you are a utter idiot to call him a utter idiot while professing he is infallible.
5/14/2017 8:28:32 PM	Is Hell for all eternity?
kb2222 Jacksonville, FL 76, joined Apr. 2011	Brashdoc and isna_la_wica keep me blocked because they can't stand a honest discussion if that discussion leads to having to think outside of their church indoctrinated fundamentalism. But for the benefit of you who might be persuaded by their lengthy theological commentaries I will ask them one question. Brashdoc and isna_la_wica, if God/Jesus hates the sin but loves the sinner why do you believe God/Jesus would order man to kill people for all sorts of reasons (listed below) and then torment them and others day and night in a fiery Hell FOR EVER AND EVER? Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT) Kill Witches (Exodus 22:17 NAB) Kill Homosexuals (Leviticus 20:13 NAB) Kill Fortunetellers (Leviticus 20:27 NAB) Death for Hitting Dad (Exodus 21:15 NAB) Death for Cursing Parents (Proverbs 20:20 NAB, Leviticus 20:9 NLT) Death for Adultery (Leviticus 20:10 NLT) Death for Fornication (Leviticus 21:9 NAB) Death to Followers of Other Religions (Exodus 22:19 NAB) Kill Nonbelievers (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB) Kill False Prophets (Zechariah 13:3 NAB) Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God (Deuteronomy 13:13-18 NLT) Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB) Kill Followers of Other Religions. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB, Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT) Death for Blasphemy (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT) Kill False Prophets (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT, Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT) Infidels and Gays Should Die (Romans 1:24-32 NLT) Kill Anyone who Approaches the Tabernacle (Numbers 1:48-51 NLT) Kill People for Working on the Sabbath (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT) Kill Sons of Sinners (Isaiah 14:21 NAB) They don't have the guts to honestly think about this and answer but as I said for the benefit of others I thought I would ask anyway. [Edited 5/14/2017 8:29:33 PM ]
5/15/2017 9:19:12 AM	Is Hell for all eternity?
isna_la_wica Brantford, ON 63, joined Mar. 2012	Does Judaism Believe in Life After Death? Once you read, 'Jewish Views of the Afterlife' by Rabbi Dr. Simcha Paull Raphael, you will never again say 'no' in answer to this question. Yes, of course Judaism teaches life after death. It is right in the 13 principals of Jewish faith : Chapter 9: Maimonides' Thirteen Principles of Jewish Faith Pages 156-163 Maimonidestext annotation indicator--also known as Rabbi Moshe ben Maimon, or Rambam--compiled and composed the thirteen principles of Jewish faith. He is often compared in greatness to Moses and towers above his peers among medieval Jewish thinkers and leaders. The thirteen principles of faith are included in every Jewish prayer book, and are recited as a liturgical hymn at the conclusion of a Friday or Festival service. This recitation is known as the Yigdaltext annotation indicator and embodies Judaism's fundamental pillars of trandional belief, just as the Apostles' or the Nicene Creeds do for Christians. text annotation indicator Principle 1 I believe by complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, is the Creator and Guide for all created beings. He alone made, makes, and will make all that is created. Principle 2 I believe by complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, is a Unity, and there is no union in any way like Him. He alone is our God, who was, who is, and who is to be. Principle 3 I believe by complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, is not a body, is not affected by physical matter, and nothing whatsoever can compare to Him [or be compared with Him]. Principle 4 I believe by complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, is the first and is the last. Principle 5 I believe by complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, to Him alone is it fitting to make prayer and to another prayer shall not be made. Principle 6 I believe by complete faith that all the words of the prophets are true. Principle 7 I believe by complete faith that the prophesy of Moses our teacher, may peace rest upon him, was true and that he was the father of all prophets that preceded him as well as all that came after him. Principle 8 I believe by complete faith that the whole Torah now found in our hands was the exact same one given to Moses, may peace rest upon him. Principle 9 I believe by complete faith that this is the Torah, and it shall not be changed and it shall not be replaced with another from the Creator, blessed be His name. Principle 10 I believe by complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, knows every action done by each human being as well as all their thoughts, as it was said, "It is He that fashions their hearts together and He ponders all ther deeds" [Ps. 33:15]. Principle 11 I believe by complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, rewards all who keep His commandments and punishes all those who transgress His commands. Principle 12 I believe by complete faith in the coming of the Messiah, and even though he tarry in waiting, in spite of that, I will still wait expectantly for him each day that he will come Principle 13 I believe by complete faith that there will be a resurrection of the dead at the time that will be pleasing before the Creator, blessed be His name, and the remembrance of Him will be exalted forever and for all eternity. Maimonides' 13 Principles of Jewish Faith - ORU web.oru.edu/current_students/class_pages/.../Chapter9Maimonides13Princ/index.html And the second blessing of the "Shemoneh Esrei prayer",which is recited 3 times daily mentions Resurrection directly. Although some modern Reformed have removed them. Is some one claiming the Jews do not believe in life after death? A few groups in Judaism do reject it, yep. But they do not represent all Jews. And just like in Christianity, some groups differ from others on how they view life after death. Some Orthodox even believe in Reincarnation. And I have been around while not participating, 3 times when "Shiva" was going on after Jewish family members of mine have passed. And there is much talk and hope of existing after death.
5/15/2017 11:25:01 AM	Is Hell for all eternity?
kb2222 Jacksonville, FL 76, joined Apr. 2011	isna_la_wica, why don't you and brashdoc answer my question?
5/15/2017 5:00:23 PM	Is Hell for all eternity?
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	Thanks for the thoughts Lud & Rich! Glad to see you are being blessed by what I have been sharing. I might add a couple of verses to your thought on not necessarily needing repentance. Just remember the simple meaning of repentance: to change the mind that implies this leading to a change in direction & action. Some passages say 'turn from idols & turn to God' or the idea that Jesus was trying to convey when He went around preaching: 'Repent & believe the gospel, the good news.' One had to change their mind, their way of thinking. Before they didn't believe the gospel concerning salvation in Christ. By repenting, they changed their minds at the point of believing the gospel message. Sometimes the point of regeneration is an almost simultaneous union of the changing of the mind & the belief in the heart. It is almost like a linear line that is a continuum when one is born again from above by God, His Spirit regenerating us. This is shown in the following passage. 2 Cor 7:5-16 For when we came into Macedonia, we had no rest, but we were harassed at every turn—conflicts on the outside, fears within. 6But God, who comforts the downcast, comforted us by the coming of Titus, 7and not only by his coming but also by the comfort you had given him. He told us about your longing for me, your deep sorrow, your ardent concern for me, so that my joy was greater than ever. 8Even if I caused you sorrow by my letter, I do not regret it. Though I did regret it—I see that my letter hurt you, but only for a little while— 9yet now I am happy, not because you were made sorry, but because your sorrow led you to repentance. For you became sorrowful as God intended and so were not harmed in any way by us. 10Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death. 11See what this godly sorrow has produced in you: what earnestness, what eagerness to clear yourselves, what indignation, what alarm, what longing, what concern, what readiness to see justice done. At every point you have proved yourselves to be innocent in this matter. 12So even though I wrote to you, it was neither on account of the one who did the wrong nor on account of the injured party, but rather that before God you could see for yourselves how devoted to us you are. 13By all this we are encouraged. In addition to our own encouragement, we were especially delighted to see how happy Titus was, because his spirit has been refreshed by all of you. 14I had boasted to him about you, and you have not embarrassed me. But just as everything we said to you was true, so our boasting about you to Titus has proved to be true as well. 15And his affection for you is all the greater when he remembers that you were all obedient, receiving him with fear and trembling. 16I am glad I can have complete confidence in you. I know it is a long passage but the context is sooooooo powerful! It truly shows the power of GODLY sorrow that brings about a true change of mind (repentance)--leading to the grasping of that awesome salvation found in the Lord Jesus Christ, overflowing with the rivers of living water to everyone around us. It truly produces good fruit: zealousness for making amends & doing good deeds & it overflows with love, joy, rest in the Lord & confidence in our brother & sister's walks, despite our difficulties. We learn to encourage one another in our most holy faith, just as Paul was encouraged by the Corinthian saints & they in turn encouraged Paul & Titus! This fits in with what John the Baptist & the Apostle Paul preached: bear fruit in keeping with your change of mind (repentance) to go God's way not your way. Or another way might be as Jesus said it, 'Not My will but Your will be done.' Also the believing thief on the cross did repent (changed his mind) over time, watching Jesus & the reactions of the crowd & what was said. You have to harmonize ALL the gospel accounts to see it. Here is how harmonizing Scripture & correlating similar passages gives us a wealth of insights we normally wouldn't see. Mark 15:27-32 They crucified two robbers with Him, one on His right & one on His left. 28And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “And He was numbered with transgressors.” 29Those PASSING BY were hurling abuse at Him, wagging their heads & saying, “Ha! You who are going to destroy the temple & rebuild it in 3 days, 30save Yourself & come down from the cross!” 31 IN THE SAME WAY the chief priests also, along with the scribes, were MOCKING HIM among themselves & saying, “He saved others; He cannot save Himself. 32“Let this Christ, the King of Israel, now come down from the cross, so that we may see and believe!” THOSE WHO WERE CRUCIFIED WITH HIM WERE ALSO INSULTING HIM. So we see that those passing by, the chief priests & scribes and both of the men crucified with Jesus were mocking, hurling abuse & insulting Jesus at one point in time. Now add the gospel account you gave with this & it makes it even more powerful a testimony! But praise the Lord that one of the thieves CHANGED HIS MIND, stopped insulting Jesus & in humility confessed his sins & put His trust in Christ as the real King of Israel & believed in Jesus' coming kingdom. His humility & contrition are seen in his simple statement: 'Remember me when you come into Your kingdom.' Just remember me, a robber who just prior to his changing his mind about Jesus, had insulted Him, thinking only about Himself. Now his godly sorrow over his wrongdoing had brought about a transformation in his thinking & the birth of faith in his heart in who Jesus truly is. It is a powerful testimony of how even in the midst of tremendous sorrow & suffering & mockery & death--the salvation of our Lord is made available to all who will change their mind from godly sorrow over our sins & in simple faith realize that even we sinners in rebellion against God, can find the rivers of living water! Hallel Yah! And the believing thief even got a special surprise! One that none of us got a chance to see! He got to be with Jesus that very day in Paradise! When he physically died after his legs were broken & he breathed his last, even though Scripture doesn't say it, I can imagine he might have followed the same example as Jesus showed him, in committing his spirit into the hands of his now heavenly Father. Then because we are still under the power of death, the Faher had his now departed soul/spirit, to be taken by the angels, just like Lazarus, to paradise, also known as Abraham's Bosom, also known as the Garden of Eden, also known as the Abode of Bliss. There he joined Jesus & for three days he saw things there that we will only know when we also join him in Paradise, now in heaven, as he also got the privilege of being taken up into the Lord's presence when Christ took all those in the place in hades called parasise & took all in there up to the third heaven. Wow. This man saw so many things most of us will never see. What a testimony! I can't wait to have fellowship with this saint of God when I leave my earthly tent & join Him in the presence of the Lord! Amen & amen! [Edited 5/15/2017 5:03:46 PM ]
5/15/2017 9:35:37 PM	Is Hell for all eternity?
isna_la_wica Brantford, ON 63, joined Mar. 2012	Thanks for the thoughts Lud & Rich! Glad to see you are being blessed by what I have been sharing. I might add a couple of verses to your thought on not necessarily needing repentance. Just remember the simple meaning of repentance: to change the mind that implies this leading to a change in direction & action. Some passages say 'turn from idols & turn to God' or the idea that Jesus was trying to convey when He went around preaching: 'Repent & believe the gospel, the good news.' One had to change their mind, their way of thinking. Before they didn't believe the gospel concerning salvation in Christ. By repenting, they changed their minds at the point of believing the gospel message. Sometimes the point of regeneration is an almost simultaneous union of the changing of the mind & the belief in the heart. It is almost like a linear line that is a continuum when one is born again from above by God, His Spirit regenerating us. This is shown in the following passage. I agree, its not that I do not think we need to repent, rather the order that it happens in. Good stuff.
5/16/2017 10:14:28 AM	Is Hell for all eternity?
kb2222 Jacksonville, FL 76, joined Apr. 2011	Quote from kb2222: isna_la_wica, why don't you and brashdoc answer my question?
5/16/2017 1:54:23 PM	Is Hell for all eternity?
riquezas Knoxville, TN 36, joined Oct. 2016	where does it say that "man" will be cast into the fire or punished for eternity? I don't read that here. Quote from ludlowlowell: "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where tge beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night FOR EVER AND EVER." --Revelation 20:10 (emphasis added)
5/16/2017 4:05:23 PM	Is Hell for all eternity?
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 64, joined Feb. 2008	Riquezas, read the parable od Lazarus and the rich man and you will see that Hell is indeed for all eternity.
5/16/2017 4:45:43 PM	Is Hell for all eternity?
riquezas Knoxville, TN 36, joined Oct. 2016	I did. What I find interesting in that parable is this: "29Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and The Prophets, let them hear them.' " 30"But he said to him, 'No, my father Abraham, but if a man will go to them from the dead, they will be converted.'" 31"Abraham said to him, 'If they will not hear Moses and The Prophets, they will not believe him*, even though a man would rise from the dead.'" we should listen to Moses and the Prophets... So that begs the question...what does Moses and the Prophets say about Hell? or about a place of eternal torment? Quote from ludlowlowell: Riquezas, read the parable od Lazarus and the rich man and you will see that Hell is indeed for all eternity.
5/17/2017 12:52:55 PM	Is Hell for all eternity?
share_n_love Fort Wayne, IN 61, joined Dec. 2012	Quote from riquezas: I did. What I find interesting in that parable is this: "29Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and The Prophets, let them hear them.' " 30"But he said to him, 'No, my father Abraham, but if a man will go to them from the dead, they will be converted.'" 31"Abraham said to him, 'If they will not hear Moses and The Prophets, they will not believe him*, even though a man would rise from the dead.'" we should listen to Moses and the Prophets... So that begs the question...what does Moses and the Prophets say about Hell? or about a place of eternal torment? Quote from ludlowlowell: Riquezas, read the parable od Lazarus and the rich man and you will see that Hell is indeed for all eternity.
5/18/2017 8:32:34 AM	Is Hell for all eternity?
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	Hello, riquezas. Nice to meet you. You are recently a member of DHU, who has posted less than 8 times. You state on your profile that you are here only for the forums rather than dating--on a dating website. That seems strange for someone new here with so little posts. Your first post says much more than what you wrote. It tells us of your belief system. Just remember that the people God judges brought all this upon themselves. They are the ones that have brought themselves to the point of being cast into the lake of fire. All God is righteously doing is passing the sentence down for what they have done. Let's look at that verse again. "And the devil THAT DECEIVED THEM--was cast into the lake of fire & brimstone, where the beast & THE FALSE PROPHET ARE & shall be tormented day & night FOR EVER & EVER." --Revelation 20:10 You stated that you didn't read about man being cast into the fire in that ONE SPECIFIC verse. I emphasized a couple of things in that one verse. Who are the 'them' that the devil DECEIVED? And the Scripture talks about the false prophet being a man. Did you miss that, too? He is there as well. The best thing is to read a verse in its context & any verses similar to it. Rev 14:9-12 “If ANYONE worships the beast & its image & receives its mark on his forehead or hand, 10he too will drink the wine of God’s anger, poured undiluted into the cup of His wrath. And he will be TORMENTED IN FIRE & BRIMSTONE...The smoke of their torment will rise forever & ever. DAY & NIGHT THERE WILL BE NO REST for those who worship the beast & its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name. Here is a call for the endurance of the saints who KEEP the commandments of God and the FAITH of Jesus. Rev 20:1,2,13-15 Then I saw a new heaven & a new earth, for the first heaven & earth had passed away & the sea was no more. 2 I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband...The sea gave up its dead & Death & Hades gave up their dead & EACH ONE WAS JUDGED ACCORDING TO THEIR DEEDS. 14Then Death & Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death — the lake of fire. 15And if ANYONE was found whose name was not written in the book of life, HE WAS THROWN into the lake of fire. Rev 16:5-7,9-11 “Just are you, O Holy One, Who is & Who was, for You brought these judgments. For they have shed the blood of saints & prophets. “Yes, Lord God the Almighty, TRUE & JUST are your judgments!” And the people were scorched by intense heat & they CURSED THE NAME OF GOD, Who had authority over these plagues; yet THEY DID NOT REPENT & GIVE HIM GLORY. 10And the 5th angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast & its kingdom was plunged into darkness & men began to gnaw their tongues in anguish & they CURSED THE GOD OF HEAVEN for their pains & sores. But they DID NOT REPENT OF THEIR EVIL DEEDS. Luke 13:3,5 But UNLESS YOU REPENT, you will all likewise perish. But unless you repent, you too, will all perish.” Psalm 69:28 May they be BLOTTED OUT of the book of life & may they NOT be recorded with the righteous. Rev 9:20,21 THE REST OF MANKIND who were not killed by these plagues still DID NOT REPENT of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons & idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone & wood—idols that cannot see or hear or walk. 21Nor did they REPENT of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts. Matthew 25:1,14,32,46 But when the Son of Man comes in His glory & all the angels with Him, then He will SIT ON HIS GLORIOUS THRONE. “All the nations will be gathered before Him. “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘DEPART FROM ME, YOU CURSED, INTO THE ETERNAL FIRE WHICH HAS BEEN PREPARED FOR THE DEVIL & HIS ANGELS. These will go away into ETERNAL PUNISHMENT, but the righteous into eternal life.” Hebrews 10:26-31 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a FEARFUL EXPECTATION OF JUDGMENT & a FURY OF FIRE...How much WORSE PUNISHMENT, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God & has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? ...It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. 2 Thess 1:5 This is a plain indication of GOD'S RIGHTEOUS JUDGMENT...For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven WITH HIS MIGHTY ANGELS--IN FLAMING FIRE, dealing out retribution to those who do NOT know God & to those who do NOT OBEY the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9These will pay the PENALTY OF ETERNAL RUIN, AWAY FROM the presence of the Lord & from the glory of His power. Jude 1:7,23 Just as Sodom & Gomorrah & the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality & went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an EXAMPLE of those undergoing the PUNISHMENT OF ETERNAL FIRE...SAVE others, SNATCHING THEM OUT OF THE FIRE. 2 Pet 2:5,6,9 If He did NOT SPARE the ancient world when He brought the flood on its UNGODLY PEOPLE...if He condemned the cities of Sodom & Gomorrah to destruction, reducing them to ashes as an EXAMPLE of what is COMING ON THE UNGODLY...if all this is TRUE, then the Lord knows how to RESCUE THE GODLY from trials AND ALSO to hold the UNGODLY FOR PUNISHMENT ON THE DAY OF JUDGMENT. There are so many more verses but any rational, intelligent person can see what is coming on the ungodly, what is coming on the unrepentant, what is coming on those who do not believe & obey the gospel, the good news of our Lord Jesus Christ. Christ is the One who will do the judging! I hope that fills in the gaps, riquezas, to help you further understand. I do not seek to cause people to fear hell but as the writer of Hebrews says, to fear God, who will do this unless we repent and believe the good news! As to your second post, the passage in Luke 16, the issue with Moses & the prophets had to do with reading them in order to be CONVERTED (verse 30). The gospel is there & Paul stated the same to Timothy in 2 Tim 3:14-17: 'the Scriptures are able to make you wise unto salvation.' But they also do talk about the bad news as well & I will show that in my following posts so stay tuned. Consider Jude & the Apostle Peter who already showed us examples from the OT as I posted above. Proverbs 16:4,5 The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked working for the day of evil (disaster). Everyone who is proud in heart is an ABOMINATION to the LORD; Assuredly, he will not be UNPUNISHED. Exodus 32:32-34 "But now, if You will, forgive their sin--& if not, please blot me out from Your book which You have written!" The LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will BLOT HIM OUT of My book. 34"But go now, lead the people where I told you. Behold, My angel shall go before you; nevertheless IN THE DAY WHEN I PUNISH, I will punish them for their sin.
5/18/2017 8:38:41 AM	Is Hell for all eternity?
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	(continued) Gen 18:25 Far be it from You to do such a thing, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous & the wicked are treated alike. Far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth deal justly?" Isaiah 3:10,11 Say to the righteous that it will go well with them, for they will eat the fruit of their actions. Woe to the wicked! It will go badly with him, for what he deserves will be done to him. Isaiah 13:11 I, the LORD, will punish the world for its evil & the wicked for their sin. 2 Chron 6:23 Hear from heaven & act & judge Your servants, PUNISHING the wicked by bringing his way on his own head & JUSTIFYING the righteous by giving him according to his righteousness. Romans 9:18-24 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. 19You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? I need to stop right now but I will post more as time allows, especially on my connect the dots illustration.
5/18/2017 12:40:17 PM	Is Hell for all eternity?
a_nubian Columbus, OH 53, joined Jan. 2011	John 3:16 For God so love the world that He gave His Only Begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. That verse is well known to virtual all Christians. The phrase, "...should not perish, but have everlasting life," is self explanatory. That "everlasting life" is a gift by God. (Eph 2:8-10) The opposite of Life is Death. If the wicked burn forever, being able to feel fire throughout eternity, they too now have "everlasting life". That contradicts what Jesus said, because He said "Perish". Our realm is a physical one. When God created Adam, He created his body first, Adam did not exist even with a body. It was not until God breath into Adam the Breath of Life that he became a living soul. Therefore you can not have one without the other.
5/18/2017 12:51:51 PM	Is Hell for all eternity?
a_nubian Columbus, OH 53, joined Jan. 2011	I have asked this question in times past. Either it is ignored...or the response is lackluster. The question is why does God need to burn people 'Forever' for 20, 30,... 70, etc years of life? I want to know the rational for it. It is because of this concept that God burns people forever, has caused people to serve God out of fear or created atheist. Note: My understanding of the Bible teaches the total destruction of the wicked by fire, not an eternal burning.
5/18/2017 1:50:58 PM	Is Hell for all eternity?
share_n_love Fort Wayne, IN 61, joined Dec. 2012	Quote from a_nubian: I have asked this question in times past. Either it is ignored...or the response is lackluster. The question is why does God need to burn people 'Forever' for 20, 30,... 70, etc years of life? I want to know the rational for it. It is because of this concept that God burns people forever, has caused people to serve God out of fear or created atheist. Note: My understanding of the Bible teaches the total destruction of the wicked by fire, not an eternal burning. Exactly! Based on Luke 13, we believe that right after one is found unworthy and right before they perish [destroyed] they will see God's kingdom for a fleeting moment, and will see Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. It is this time that Yahshua says in Luke 13 that those found unworthy will be screaming and gnashing their teeth because they will not be allowed into God's kingdom. Luke 13:22-30, 22) Yeshua continued traveling through town after town and village after village, teaching and making his way toward Yerushalayim. 23) Someone asked him, "Are only a few people being saved?" 24) He answered, "Struggle to get in through the narrow door, because -- I'm telling you! -- many will be demanding to get in and won't be able to, 25) once the owner of the house has gotten up and shut the door. You will stand outside, knocking at the door and saying, `Lord! Open up for us!' But he will answer, `I don't know you or where you come from!' 26) Then you will say, `We ate and drank with you! you taught in our streets!' 27) and he will tell you, `I don't know where you're from. Get away from me, all you workers of wickedness!' 28) You will cry and grind your teeth when you see Avraham, Yitz'chak, Ya`akov and all the prophets inside the Kingdom of God, but yourselves thrown outside. 29 Moreover, people will come from the east, the west, the north and the south to sit at table in the Kingdom of God. 30) And notice that some who are last will be first, and some who are first will be last."
5/18/2017 4:47:17 PM	Is Hell for all eternity?
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 64, joined Feb. 2008	You guys are preferring your own opinions to the teachings of our Holy Mother the Catholic Church.
5/18/2017 5:46:34 PM	Is Hell for all eternity?
a_nubian Columbus, OH 53, joined Jan. 2011	Quote from ludlowlowell: You guys are preferring your own opinions to the teachings of our Holy Mother the Catholic Church. Actually it's a very simple question. If I asked what was the rationale for Jesus dying for us, I am sure everyone would answer that question without hesitation. So what is the rationale for God to burn people forever? [Edited 5/18/2017 5:47:15 PM ]
5/19/2017 9:50:25 AM	Is Hell for all eternity?
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 64, joined Feb. 2008	The rationale is that God is all powerful, and that He loves us so much that to disobey Him is a terrible frightful thing.
5/19/2017 11:06:08 AM	Is Hell for all eternity?
kb2222 Jacksonville, FL 76, joined Apr. 2011	There is no sane rationale for tormenting people in a fiery Hell for eternity. You are clearly morally and spiritually insane not knowing righteousness from wickedness or not caring, lacking in loving compassion, understanding and mercy and no more a follower of Jesus than is Satan, Ludlow.
5/19/2017 12:13:31 PM	Is Hell for all eternity?
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	Thank you a_nubian, for your question. It is a good one & thanks for asking it. It is a legitimate question & one that people haven't searched out & thought it through to its Scriptural conclusions. People want to avoid the unpleasant. (Is 30:9-11) I will start out with simple SPIRITUAL revelation in 3 points. However, it is more complex if we want to see the whole picture as revealed in Scripture. 1. People don't understand the nature of God as He reveals Himself in Scripture. 2. People don't understand the nature of man as God has revealed it in Scripture. 3. We would rather believe a lie than believe the truth. To be rational is a human trait. We humans want an answer that appeals to OUR reasoning, our justifications, our sense of justice. God doesn't appeal to any of these nor does He need to justify Himself before us. He reveals Himself as Who He is & He also reveals mankind as who they are. They are in opposition to each other due to the law of sin & death. Man was not originally created that way but that is what has occurred since man has chosen to go his own way apart from God & follow the father of lies. A good example of these 3 points is your rationale that you give here in your two posts. I hope by showing you in what you wrote how easy it is for us to be deceived into believing distortions of the truth as God has revealed it in Scripture concerning Himself & the nature of man. Your very question, the way you ask it, questions the very nature & character of God, whether you are aware of it or not. Our words reveal & reflect our thinking & reasoning. (Prov 23:17; 15:28; Jer 17:9,10; James 1:26) I hope you won't be offended as I go through this with your posts. My desire is to speak the truth in love (Eph 4:15; Ps 40:10), allowing my faith to express itself through love (Gal 5:6; I Cor 13:13). As always, apply Acts 17:11 and Heb 13:1. I also want to commend & encourage you in your latest attempt to dialogue with a certain individual on here with which it is very difficult to discuss anything. (2 Tim 2:22-26) "Why does God need to burn people 'Forever' for 20, 30, 70, etc years of life?" The first aspect of deception is to question God. That is human nature, after we don't understand something--we got that being made in the image of Adam. The image of God that man originally had, has been corrupted because of the law of sin & death. This is also what the devil has done since the very beginning. Your use of 'why' does that. Man has now become the center of determining what is good & what is evil. That is the result of believing THE lie--'you shall surely not die'--& our sin AGAINST God, our pride. We are not as good as we think of ourselves to be & we are worse than what we imagine ourselves to be--according to God--as He has revealed the truth in Scripture. Secondly, God doesn't 'need.' That is humanistic reasoning because we human beings need; God doesn't. We need God but He doesn't need us. He will though, use us for His glory IF--we are obedient & subject to doing His will in the power of the Spirit. Then the flow of love & fellowship WITH God occurs as we continue to WALK IN THE LIGHT. Acts 17:25,26 “The God who made the world & everything in it, is the Lord of heaven & earth & does not live in temples built by human hands. 25And he is not served by human hands, AS IF HE NEEDED ANYTHING. Ps 50:21 When you did these things, I was silent, so you thought I was exactly like you. But now I will condemn you & state My case against you! Isaiah 57:11 "Of whom were you worried & fearful when you lied & did not remember Me nor give Me a thought? Was I not silent even for a long time, so now you do not fear Me? The way you asked it is making it a personal & emotional issue, implying that somehow there is something wrong with God for needing such a thing. You cannot get further from the truth than that. That is not the God of Scripture as He has revealed Himself. We have become so deceived & comfortable in our deception, that we don't recognize who is behind this: the father of lies & the murderer from the beginning, who hates God & all that He is & for which He stands. He hates the truth. He will do everything to malign God & distort the truth. There is no truth in him whatsoever. And he disguises himself as an angel of light. Jesus & the apostles & prophets taught us these truths. But today, the devil is a nice guy or he is Jesus' brother or he doesn't exist. All lies. We rationalize by erroneously thinking: I am not bad enough to deserve hell. The truth is I am not good enough not to deserve it. 'Burn people forever' is a very inflammatory statement. It implies several things grossly untrue about God: He is cruel. He seems to delight in seeing people suffer. He is unjust. He is spiteful. He is partial in His judgment. He is unfair, etc. God carries out the sentence based upon the 'books.' (Rev 20) People are judged for what THEY HAVE DONE & the choices they have made & the things they have said or thought. People don't believe God when He says that we will be held ACCOUNTABLE for everything we have said or thought or done. And when we are, we are shocked! Did He really mean that? He couldn't have, could He? (to be continued).
5/19/2017 1:28:09 PM	Is Hell for all eternity?
kb2222 Jacksonville, FL 76, joined Apr. 2011	Brashdoc, is just spewing out theological false doctrine BS about the book the church compiled while dancing around a rational answer to the question asked. Delete the word "need" from the question and answer it, brashdoc. Tell us why you don't think there is nothing wrong with tormenting people in a fiery Hell for eternity? And why you believe that is what Jesus would do, brashdoc?
5/19/2017 1:35:49 PM	Is Hell for all eternity?
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 64, joined Feb. 2008	Quote from kb2222: There is no sane rationale for tormenting people in a fiery Hell for eternity. You are clearly morally and spiritually insane not knowing righteousness from wickedness or not caring, lacking in loving compassion, understanding and mercy and no more a follower of Jesus than is Satan, Ludlow. Is Satan burning in Hell? If so, Hell must exist.
5/19/2017 2:32:16 PM	Is Hell for all eternity?
kb2222 Jacksonville, FL 76, joined Apr. 2011	Quote from ludlowlowell: Is Satan burning in Hell? If so, Hell must exist. No Satan is not burning in Hell. If he was how could he be influencing man to sin?
5/19/2017 5:57:30 PM	Is Hell for all eternity?
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	Lud, this is your thread. I am going to write a message to kb2222 since he keeps taunting me in his prideful, denigrative way. Please put what I write to him in quotes so he can see it. He is clearly a dangerous heretic who openly attacks the basic teachings of Christianity & is horrific in condemning others & especially you. If you allow him to continue posting his anti-Christian & hateful false teaching in your threads, I will no longer write posts in your threads. Thank you. Here is the brief message for kb2222: Quote: Kb2222 "Brashdoc & isna_la_wica keep me blocked because they can't stand a honest discussion if that discussion leads to having to think outside of their church indoctrinated fundamentalism. They don't have the guts to honestly think about this and answer. My quest for truth past the murderous characterization of God in the Bible contrary to the teachings of Jesus & my own sense of morality started long ago and led me to The Urantia Book." (2017) Quote: "brashdoc has me blocked because he can't handle the truth & apparently delights in backstabbing." (2012) Quote: "If you are to believe as Jesus believed you MUST OF NECESSARY IGNORE ALL OT scripture that is incompatible with his teachings." (2012) Quote: "All scripture that is incompatible with the teachings of Jesus must of necessity be DISGARDED if you are to "Follow" Jesus--that's just good common sense. Right, brashdoc?" (2012) Quote (TUB home page): "The Urantia Book is a new revelation of truth, not an amplification of Christianity nor of any other religion on Earth. The Urantia Book does not claim to be Christian; it does claim to be Jesusonian." Quote (TUB 4.5.4): "The barbarous idea of appeasing an angry God, of propitiating an offended Lord, of winning the favor of Deity through sacrifices & penance & even by the shedding of blood, represents a religion wholly puerile & primitive, a philosophy unworthy of an enlightened age of science & truth. Such beliefs are utterly repulsive to the celestial beings & the divine rulers who serve & reign in the universes. It is an affront to God to believe, hold, or teach that innocent blood must be shed to win his favor or divert fictitious divine wrath." [TUB implicitly rejects the notion that Jesus’ death & shedding of His blood was required to save souls. It also rejects the resurrection of Jesus & that He is the Messiah!] Quote: kb2222: "If you were a holy, just, righteous & loving Father-God, would you demand the horrible death of your innocent son as a sacrifice or atonement for the sins of others?" Jn 3:14-16 "Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes may have eternal life in Him.” For God so loved the world that HE GAVE His only Son, that whoever believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. Rom 3:25 God presented Him as an atoning sacrifice through faith in His blood, in order to demonstrate His righteousness. THE URANTIA BOOK records Jesus telling his disciple Nathaniel, "The Scriptures are faulty and altogether human in origin" (page 1767); and while "the Scriptures contain much that is true, . . . these writings also contain much that is misrepresentative of the Father in heaven" (1768). The Jesus of THE URANTIA BOOK flatly denounces "this erroneous idea of the absolute perfection of the Scripture record and the infallibility of its teachings" (1768). Likewise, the book says, "There has been no 'fall of man.' The history of the human race is one of progressive evolution..." (846). God's covenant with Israel is referred to as "the chosen-people delusion." (1005) THE URANTIA BOOK accomplishes what few other cultic writings have expressed in one breath, namely, the rejection of every significant doctrine of Christianity & Judaism: "The cardinal religious ideas of incantation, inspiration, revelation, propitiation, repentance, atonement, intercession, sacrifice, prayer, confession, worship, survival after death, sacrament, ritual, ransom, salvation, redemption, convenant, uncleanness, purification, prophecy, original sin -- they all go back to the early times of primordial ghost fear" (1005). “The Father in Paradise did not decree, demand, or require the death of his Son. All of this was man's doing; not God's” (p. 2002) Quote of kb2222: "Urantia reader/believers are TRUE Christian followers of the Master's teachings and strive to believe as he believed not like you Bible Christians who believe the murderous acts in the OT are the works of God. A blood sacrifice to appease an angry God is a Pagan belief & one that Jesus did not espouse. Perhaps you should change your profile to read Pagan if you insist on believing like one." TUB presents a different Jesus from the Bible. Although they may quote the Bible, he is not the same Jesus found in the Bible. It claims that Jesus' real name was Michael of Nebadon. It also claims Jesus perfected his divinity by seven incarnations among various creatures of the Universe & that within his 7th incarnation on Urantia he was Michael of Nebadon, the 611,121st Creator Son of God. (p. 1323) All of the above show you as what you are: poisonous snakes as Jesus said. Here is what I said clear back in 2012 when I blocked you: "I can speak for myself kb2222 rather than U arrogantly telling everyone why I blocked U. Quit spreading discord & lying. The reason I blocked U is that your tirades such as U display here (and continue to do 5 years later, having grown WORSE in your viscious attacks), were getting worse & worse & when U compared myself & Christians as being murderers like Hitler for simply believing the OT, like all Jewish people do too, I blocked U. As I said, this type of rhetoric is what authorities (like the CIA, FBI, Homeland Security) monitor as possible dangerous people (of interest). As a result, I didn't want to have anything more to do with U." 2 Tim 2:15-17 Make every effort to present yourself approved to God, an unashamed workman accurately handling the word of truth. But shun profane & vain (futile) babblings; for they will increase unto more ungodliness. Their talk will eat away like gangrene. All of your questions were answered, refuting your false assertions, by various people, the latest being bigd9832, who did a great job answering them. You blew him off like you have all others before & you will do the same if I chose to address it. It would be a waste of time! You do not believe the Bible as quoted above, you do not follow the teachings of the BIBLICAL JESUS, you do not believe He is the Messiah or that He rose from the dead & that His shed blood is the propitiation for our sins. You want to cut out & reject the OT & the writings of Paul as spurious. You are a modern day heretical Marcion.
5/19/2017 5:57:52 PM	Is Hell for all eternity?
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	Conclusion: Hebrews 10:26-31 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment & of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of 2 or 3 witnesses. How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them & who has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay.” You have been warned from the truth of the Scriptures. My prayer is for God to deal with you directly. He sees what you are doing. It is His to avenge when you attack His people. We Christians have grown quite tired of the repeated attacks. Please go somewhere else & peddle these heretical hateful teachings. We see right through your deception. This is the Christian ONLY section. It is time for you all to leave. You used to be only in the Religious section. Your degenerative, viscious & lying attacks on Christians, the Bible & our ancient historically verified teachings demonstrate what Scripture calls you: false teachers that are actually ravenous wolves in sheep's clothing. You visciously attack us & what we believe. You fit well Jesus' denunciation: you brood of poisonous snakes, you hypocrites, fill up the measure of your sins...you are storing up wrath for the day of judgment. You will get no discussion from me. As I said in 2012 when I blocked you: "I have no further desire to dialogue with you, sir."
5/19/2017 8:03:08 PM	Is Hell for all eternity?
kb2222 Jacksonville, FL 76, joined Apr. 2011	Again, Brashdoc, is just spewing out theological false doctrine BS about the book the church compiled while dancing around a rational answer to the question asked. Delete the word "need" from the question and answer it, brashdoc. Tell us why you don't think there is nothing wrong with tormenting people in a fiery Hell for eternity? And why you believe that is what Jesus would do, brashdoc?
5/19/2017 8:05:04 PM	Is Hell for all eternity?
kb2222 Jacksonville, FL 76, joined Apr. 2011	Quote from kb2222: Brashdoc and isna_la_wica keep me blocked because they can't stand a honest discussion if that discussion leads to having to think outside of their church indoctrinated fundamentalism. But for the benefit of you who might be persuaded by their lengthy theological commentaries I will ask them one question. Brashdoc and isna_la_wica, if God/Jesus hates the sin but loves the sinner why do you believe God/Jesus would order man to kill people for all sorts of reasons (listed below) and then torment them and others day and night in a fiery Hell FOR EVER AND EVER? Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT) Kill Witches (Exodus 22:17 NAB) Kill Homosexuals (Leviticus 20:13 NAB) Kill Fortunetellers (Leviticus 20:27 NAB) Death for Hitting Dad (Exodus 21:15 NAB) Death for Cursing Parents (Proverbs 20:20 NAB, Leviticus 20:9 NLT) Death for Adultery (Leviticus 20:10 NLT) Death for Fornication (Leviticus 21:9 NAB) Death to Followers of Other Religions (Exodus 22:19 NAB) Kill Nonbelievers (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB) Kill False Prophets (Zechariah 13:3 NAB) Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God (Deuteronomy 13:13-18 NLT) Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB) Kill Followers of Other Religions. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB, Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT) Death for Blasphemy (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT) Kill False Prophets (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT, Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT) Infidels and Gays Should Die (Romans 1:24-32 NLT) Kill Anyone who Approaches the Tabernacle (Numbers 1:48-51 NLT) Kill People for Working on the Sabbath (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT) Kill Sons of Sinners (Isaiah 14:21 NAB) They don't have the guts to honestly think about this and answer but as I said for the benefit of others I thought I would ask anyway. Why don't you answer the question, brashdoc?
5/19/2017 8:16:03 PM	Is Hell for all eternity?
kb2222 Jacksonville, FL 76, joined Apr. 2011	If you are to believe as Jesus believed you MUST OF NECESSITY DISREGARD ALL OT scripture that is incompatible with his teachings. Jesus didn't believe like those who killed Him. Why do you, brashdoc?
5/19/2017 9:01:29 PM	Is Hell for all eternity?
isna_la_wica Brantford, ON 63, joined Mar. 2012	Quote: Kb2222 "Brashdoc & isna_la_wica keep me blocked because they can't stand a honest discussion if that discussion leads to having to think outside of their church indoctrinated fundamentalism. They don't have the guts to honestly think about this and answer. My quest for truth past the murderous characterization of God in the Bible contrary to the teachings of Jesus & my own sense of morality started long ago and led me to The Urantia Book." (2017) My," indoctrinated ", "fundamentalist ", church? Oh my . Nope, I have you blocked because you are a fundamentalist Urantian who refuses even to acknowledge differences in Science, let alone Christianity. . [Edited 5/19/2017 9:02:03 PM ]
5/19/2017 9:47:13 PM	Is Hell for all eternity?
kb2222 Jacksonville, FL 76, joined Apr. 2011	isna_la_wica says: Nope, I have you blocked because you are a fundamentalist Urantian who refuses even to acknowledge differences in Science, let alone Christianity. BS. You have me blocked and don't answer my questions because just as I said you can't stand a honest discussion if that discussion leads to having to think outside of your church indoctrinated fundamentalism and I have no idea what "differences in science" you are talking about and even if I did how does that relate to or keep you from answering my questions in my last two posts, isna? Stop making silly excuses to evade and answer the two questions, isna.
5/19/2017 10:28:24 PM	Is Hell for all eternity?
a_nubian Columbus, OH 53, joined Jan. 2011	Brashdoc thanks for replying. 1. People don't understand the nature of God as He reveals Himself in Scripture. 2. People don't understand the nature of man as God has revealed it in Scripture. 3. We would rather believe a lie than believe the truth. 1. I agree with not understanding the nature of God. I also would say you and I would agree that God is Omnipresence. God can no more stop being Omnipresent than we can no more force ourselves not to breathing. However; regarding an everlasting fire, we can only imagine what it would be like for God (being Omnipresent) if the unrighteous were burning forever. God will sit on His throne and look at His Redeemed, able to look beyond the Holy City and to the ends of His beautiful Cosmos but in the background it's marred with the glow of yellow and orange fire, with black smoke ascending forever upwards from the unsaved. The smells of flowers and plants and all that is good that the Redeemed enjoy, for God, it is forever mingled with the snitch of burning flesh. When the Redeem sing songs of Glory and Adoration to God; God will also hear the wicked screams of pain and agony forever. And when the Redeem Praise His Name; God will hear the wicked curse His Name. All this Forever. In our fallen state we cannot even beginning to comprehend forever let alone how it most apply this to the unsaved. I used the word Cosmos on purpose (the universe seen as a well-ordered whole). An everlasting fire would not fit into that.
5/20/2017 7:20:46 AM	Is Hell for all eternity?
a_nubian Columbus, OH 53, joined Jan. 2011	Brashdoc 'Burn people forever' is a very inflammatory statement. It implies several things grossly untrue about God: He is cruel. He seems to delight in seeing people suffer. He is unjust. He is spiteful. He is partial in His judgment. He is unfair, etc How else is it suppose to be said? This is a belief that most Christians have about the unsaved, that if you do not accept God you will burn forever. Is this not true? How does one sugar coat this? That was my point as stated earlier what is the rationale?
5/20/2017 9:02:52 AM	Is Hell for all eternity?
iam_resurrected Reno, NV 46, joined Jul. 2014	I believe the "Lake of Fire" is for eternity. I believe Satan, demons, false prophet, the beast, antichrist, wh*re, the grave and death will all be in the "Lake of Fire" for all eternity. and this also pertains to those NOT FOUND written in the Book of Life!! after all, they CHOSE to DENY GOD. they CHOSE DEATH and eternally it is what they shall justifiably receive!!
5/20/2017 9:14:38 AM	Is Hell for all eternity?
a_nubian Columbus, OH 53, joined Jan. 2011	3. We would rather believe a lie than believe the truth. Brashdoc I am understanding this to mean that an everlasting fire for the wicked is truth. To not except this truth and teach otherwise would be a lie. My understanding via the bible is that the unsaved will be held accountable and the God will punish them along with the Satan and his angels in the Lake of Fire. It's the duration that is at question. Will they burn forever or will they by fire be utterly destroyed. "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where tge beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night FOR EVER AND EVER." --Revelation 20:10 (emphasis added) In a previous post of Lud I have addressed the issue of "For EVER and EVER For Ever: Jonah in the fish (Jonah 2:6) "I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: Israel Congregation (Duet 23:3) An Ammonite or Moabite shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to their tenth generation shall they not enter into the congregation of the LORD for ever: Sodom & Gomorrha (Jude 7) Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner,... suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. Why God Punishes: For Jonah it was a rebuke. But Jonah is still not in the belly of the fish. For the Ammonites and Moablites it was for past iniquities, but yet Ruth being a Moabite joined Israel. For Sodom and Gomorrah, it was their wickedness, subsequently they were eternally destroyed, but those cities are not burning still. The concept of "For Ever" illustrates a "duration' by God. Lake of Fire And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. I am come to send fire on the earth; (Luke 12:47-49) Jesus points out people will be punished according to their deeds. If all those that end up in the Lake of Fire burn for ever, there is No distinction between those that sinned greatly and those who did not sin as greatly. For some the 'duration" may be day and night, but For ever and ever, does not mean it will last forever, but until it's completion. Summation: Jonah disobeyed God - Punishment - Belly of the Fish - Duration 3 days For Ever Ammonite/Moabite attacked Israel - Punishment - Not allowed to enter Israel's Congregation - Duration 10 generations - For Ever Sodom/Gomorrah wickedness - Punishment - Hail Fire - Duration - until their cities were utterly destroyed leaving no trace- Eternal Fire an eternal consequence. The Wicked at the End of Time - Punishment - Lake of Fire - Durtion for some tormented day and night, utterly destroyed, eternal consequence.- For ever and ever. Therefore Satan, his angels, the unsaved, will be punished to the degree of their disobedience and wickedness which for some can last day and night, " this is the second death. (vs 14) Death the opposite of eternal life.
5/20/2017 9:51:20 AM	Is Hell for all eternity?
a_nubian Columbus, OH 53, joined Jan. 2011	To not except this truth and teach otherwise would be a lie. Oops accept not except.
5/20/2017 1:39:13 PM	Is Hell for all eternity?
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	I just finished a response to your first two posts, which I will post & will try & get to your last posts when I am able. Being a full-time caregiver for my dad keeps me hopping. We got back from the hospital 2 nights ago when he dislocated his hip. We saw his doctor yesterday He may need to see the orthopedic surgeon. Please pray. Thanks! Thanks, a_nubian, for responding back. I can see you are contemplating who God is. That is good. You have picked just one of His many attributes describing the harmonious nature of God & that is: He is omnipresent. We both agree on that. But that is only one aspect of His nature. Your question involves multiple aspects so it makes for a more in-depth discussion. Then you have extrapolated that out in your thinking, in a finite, humanistic way, imagining & trying to rationalize what it would be like to be God & be present everywhere in His supposed 'cosmos.' (Greek: kosmos) I am thankful you chose that word, too, for it is key in misunderstanding God's universe vs 'kosmos' (Greek for ordered system). The living God is not only JUST omnipresent. We have already limited God by just focusing on that one lone attribute but we have to start somewhere. So to try & put ourselves in His shoes & wonder what it would be like to be omnipresent, from our own finite thinking & reasoning, looking for a human rationale, is going to bring us to a faulty understanding of who God is. So how do we learn about that one attribute, as well as the whole, harmonious nature of God Simple. What does God say about it in His Word, God's revelation of the truth. Isaiah 55:8,9 “For My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My ways,” declares YHWH. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways & My thoughts than your thoughts." Jer 23:23,24 “Am I a God who is near,” declares YHWH, “And not a God far off? Can a man hide himself in hiding places so I do not see him?” declares YHWH. “Do I not fill the heavens & the earth?” declares YHWH. So far so good. As we continue in Jer 23 (good to read whole ch.), we learn more about God & about fire & about His Presence. We learn about who God is by the revelation He shows us. vs 25 “I have heard what the prophets have said who prophesy falsely in My name." vs 26 'deception of their own hearts.' (see Jer 17:9,10; Mk 7:14-23) vs. 27 "Who intend to make My people forget My Name, just as their fathers...' Here we learn about another attribute of God: omniscience, God is able to know everything going on, even secret thoughts. (see Ps 139:1-6). We also see the nature of man. vs 28,29 “The prophet who has a dream may relate his dream, but let him who has My word speak My word in truth. What does straw have in common with grain?” declares YHWH. “Is not My word like fire?” declares YHWH, “and like a hammer which shatters a rock? Here we learn from God's Word a characteristic about God's fire that DOES NOT BURN as we normally would think of it in our finite, limited physical senses. Another way someone can suffer the fire of God is by the revelation of His Word. It acts like a fire within us when we have rejected it, spurned it & chosen to disobey it. It comes back to us in the sense of shame & reproach & humiliation, that we didn't believe & obey it. (see vss. 9, 39) This I think is one of the main aspects of the eternal fire in the SPIRITUAL REALM where people are cast into the lake of fire, into the Gehenna of fire. It is not like fire in the physical realm. Vs. 32,33 “Behold, I am against those who have prophesied false dreams,” declares YHWH, “and related them & led My people astray by their falsehoods & reckless boasting; yet I did not send them or command them, nor do they furnish this people the slightest benefit.” vs 36 “For you will no longer remember the oracle of YHWH, because every man’s own word will become the oracle & you have PERVERTED the words of the living Elohim, YHWH of hosts, our God. This is where we must be extremely careful in not replacing God's Word of truth with our own imaginations, reasonings & words, making them out to be God's oracle. vs 39 “Therefore behold, I will surely forget you & cast you away from My presence, along with the city which I gave you & your fathers. And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you & a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten." [vss 11,12 Both prophet & priest are godless; even in My temple I find their wickedness,” declares YHWH. “Therefore their path will become slippery; they will be banished to darkness." Here we learn about several other attributes of God: He is just--to judge wickedness-- & He is omnipotent; God is all-powerful. Keep in mind a Scriptural principle: Although God CAN do everything, He does not do anything that is contradictory or contrary to His nature or Word. In other words, it is impossible for God to lie, to sin, be unjust, etc. “Although such power might seem frightful, remember that God is good. He can do anything according to His infinite ability, but will do only those things that are consistent with Himself. That’s why He can’t lie, tolerate sin, or save impenitent sinners.” – John MacArthur “God is all-powerful & able to do whatever he wills. Since his will is limited by his nature, God can do everything that is in harmony with his perfections." Henry Thiessen in vs. 39 we also see that God can forget people (here contextually those who prophecy falsely, pervert His Word & lead people astray) & cast them AWAY FROM HIS PRESENCE. Here we learn from God Himself something about Himself. This is truth. Although He is omniscient, He has the omnipotent ability to forget people. Although He is omnipresent, He has the ability to cast people AWAY FROM HIS 'MANIFESTED' PRESENCE. Even though God may have the ability to fill the heavens & the earth, that does not mean He will MANIFEST His presence everywhere. One of the characteristics of both the temporary & the permanent places where the unbelievers are after they die is: DARKNESS.
5/20/2017 1:43:26 PM	Is Hell for all eternity?
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	(continued) Though God may be cognizant of what is going on in Sheol/Hades or Gehenna/Lake of fire, that does not mean He makes His presence known there or manifests Himself, since He is light. We cannot hide from God but God can hide from us. (Job 34:29; Is 45:15) We also see the nature of man, that man doesn't think or believe he will be seen or held accountable when he does evil. (Ps 10:4,6,11; 36:2; 59:7; 64:5; 73:11; 94:7; Job 22:13,14; Is 29:15; Ezek 8:12; 9:9) Scripture says He is able to do this in harmony with His nature. If you ask me for a further explanation, I will need to search the Scriptures further for a possible answer. Otherwise I just believe the Word & not wrack my brain trying to 'figure' it all out. We just have to trust the Lord when He says like He did to the disciples, "I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now." Jn 8:26 I have much to say about you & much to judge, but He who sent Me is true & I declare to the world what I have heard from Him. (Jesus would wait for the time of judgment) Isaiah 59: Surely the arm of the Lord is not too short to save, nor His ear too dull to hear. But your INIQUITIES have SEPARATED YOU FROM YOUR GOD; your sins have HIDDEN HIS FACE FROM YOU, SO THAT HE WILL NOT HEAR. For your hands are stained with blood, your fingers with guilt. Your lips have spoken falsely & your tongue mutters wicked things. No one calls for justice; no one pleads a case with integrity. They rely on empty arguments, they utter lies; they conceive trouble & give birth to evil... Their deeds are evil deeds & acts of violence are in their hands. We look for light, but all is darkness; for brightness, but we walk in deep shadows. Like the blind we grope along the wall, feeling our way like people without eyes. At midday we stumble as if it were twilight...WE ARE LIKE THE DEAD. For our offenses are many in your sight & our sins testify against us. OUR OFFENSES ARE EVER WITH US & we acknowledge our iniquities: rebellion & treachery against YHWH, turning our backs on our God, inciting revolt & oppression, uttering lies our hearts have conceived. According to what they have done, so will He repay; wrath to His enemies & retribution to His foes. *“The Redeemer will come to Zion, to those in Jacob WHO REPENT OF THEIR SINS...“As for Me, this is My covenant with them,” says YHWH. “My Spirit, who is on you, will not depart from you & My words that I have put in your mouth will always be on your lips...FROM THIS TIME ON & FOREVER. This passage in Isaiah 59 again shows us, by God's own revelation, who He is & who man is, those apart from Him in unbelief & those who repent & enter into the new covenant. Athough God is omnipresent, people can be separated from God due to their sins. Although God is omnipotent & omniscient, His face is hidden FROM THEM & HE DOES NOT HEAR THEIR PRAYERS. Although God is light, people can be hidden away from the presence of God & thus they experience darkness. This is what it is like for the unbelieving, evil dead, those who have physically died & who left their bodies on the earth, departing FROM THEM & entering the realm of the invisible, the spiritual realm, where God & angelic beings exist & those who have died. That is a whole different realm than which we are accustomed to normally think. We need to change our thinking, being renewed & transformed in the SPIRIT of our minds by God's Spirit, Who searches all the deep things of God. We need to learn how to think like God thinks, to see as God sees, to have the mind of Christ, as best as our finite minds can handle. This revelation comes from God, in His Word & through His Spirit. Habakkuk 1:13 You are of purer eyes than to behold evil & can not look on iniquity. Why look You on them that deal treacherously & hold Your tongue when the wicked swallows up the man that is more righteous than he? Here we learn again about God & several other attributes of His nature: God is holy & pure. God is just & impartial. God is somehow, by His omnipotence & holiness, able to shield Himself from looking upon evil & iniquity, yet by His omniscience, knows what everyone has done & records all these things in 'THE BOOKS' of everyone's life on this earth. There is also a different book from these, the book of LIFE, the Lamb's BOOK OF LIFE. The other books record the dead works of spiritually dead people separated & apart from God & His eternal life. Here is where your first post was in error & why you 'assumed' that what Jesus said in Jn 3:16 was contradictory. [sidenote on perishing--see 2 Thess 2:10,11] It was your false assumption that was contradictory not Jesus. Your reasoning was: since people are going to exist in eternity & those who are unbelieving are going to experience punishment in the eternal hell aka lake of fire aka Gehenna of fire, they must somehow have eternal LIFE. They do NOT have eternal LIFE according to Scripture. They have never been born again, regenerated by the Holy Spirit, received a new creation. They are unregenerated, spiritually dead in trespasses & sins, children of the devil & under God's wrath. Jesus told the man that hesitated in following Him: 'Let the dead bury their own dead.' Let the spiritually dead bury their own physically dead. You instead come & follow Me. So you did correctly say the opposite of life is DEATH. Simply because God will resurrect the bodies of all people, both believing & unbelieving, having their souls/spirits return again to a new resurrected, incorruptible body, does not mean He gives eternal life to the unbelieving. He doesn't. Only those who repent & trust in Christ receive the gift of LIFE that is unending. The unbelieving are still in the state of being spiritually dead. They have rejected the convicting work of the Holy Spirit, refusing to believe in Christ & thus remain spiritually dead, separated from the life of God. They are still in the kingdom or 'kosmos' of darkness, under the authority of the devil, the 'orderly system' he runs on this earth AT THIS PRESENT TIME FROM THE INVISIBLE, SPIRITUAL REALM. (Mt 4:8,9; Lk 4:5-7; I Jn 5:19) I Jn 5:19 "...the whole world (kosmos) is under the power [authority] of the evil one." Lk 4:5,6 YLT And the Devil having brought Him up to an high mountain, shewed to Him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil said to Him, 'To thee I will give all this authority [power] & their glory, because to me it hath been delivered & to whomsoever I will, I do give it. Here we learn something that takes us all the way back to Genesis 1-3. Adam originally had authority, power & dominion over the earth, as long as he obeyed & followed God. However, when he & Eve chose to sin against God & follow the devil & believe THE LIE ('you shall surely NOT die but will become as God, knowing good & evil'), God in His Sovereignty, delivered that authority to the devil, who in turn set up his kosmos or orderly worldly system, with all its hierarchy of demonic principalities (Eph 6:10ff) set up to run things. I Jn 5:15-17 Do not love the world (kosmos) or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in them. For everything in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes & the pride of life—COMES NOT FROM THE FATHER but from the world. And the world & its desires pass away, but he who does God's will abides forever.
5/20/2017 1:45:38 PM	Is Hell for all eternity?
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	(continued)We are not to love this orderly system, kosmos or world--whichever translation is used--or anything in it. This 'kosmos' does NOT come from the Father. Read Eph 2 once again, several times. See the contrast between those who have believed & God MADE ALIVE by grace through faith vs those who are spiritually dead in their trespasses & sins, children deceived, following the devil & under the wrath of God. Those of us who believed used to be 'like the rest of mankind.' Now we are different because we have 'crossed over out of death & into life.' We have been transferred 'out of the kingdom of darkness' & into Christ's marvelous kingdom of light & life. Unbelievers have not. Eph 4:18 They are darkened in their understanding, alienated [separated, excluded] FROM THE LIFE OF GOD because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart. (2 Cor 3:14) Notice & ponder the contrast between John 5:24-26 & John 5:28,29. If you understand the differences & what Jesus is talking about here, you will have gained great spiritual insight. Don't confuse the life of the body with the life of one's spirit. You had a correct understanding in your first post when you saw that Adam's body was not alive UNTIL God breathed into his nostrils the BREATH OF LIVES (life here is in the Hebrew plural not the singular) & man became a living being, a living human being, a living soul, a living person--UNTIL--he disobeyed God's command & turned away from Him. The law of sin & death entered the world, corrupting all in its path. The whole universe was drastically affected. (Rom 8:18-22) All hell did break loose. God: 'in the very day that you eat from it, you will surely die!' God didn't lie but the devil did. The devil: 'you shall surely not die!' Instead you will be as God, knowing good from evil. The phrase is in the emphatic in both places & in the Hebrew literally means: 'in dying you will die.' Adam & Eve were told that at the moment they ate of the fruit, in that very day, they would die. God didn't lie. They died right then even though still physically alive: 'in dying...' and also over 900 years later: 'you WILL die.' They died spiritually on that day & hundreds of years later they physically died. There is spiritual life & physical life; spiritual death & physical death. Then there is the second death. Rom 8:2 The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set U free from the law of sin & death. Sometimes the Word of God is progressive in its revelation; we don't see all that is there or understand until more revelation is given, that amplifies & clarifies what was previously written. Prov 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, but the glory of kings is to search out a matter. [Read also Proverbs chapter 2.] Prov 29:11 A fool utters all his mind, but a wise man keeps it in till afterwards. Prov 18:13 He that answers a matter before he hears it, it is folly & shame to him. Job 29:16 I was a father to the poor & the cause which I knew not I searched out. I need to break this off & do other things. I will end with what you ended your last post on: "I used the word Cosmos on purpose (the universe seen as a well-ordered whole). An everlasting fire would not fit into that." As I have shown you from Scripture that the 'Cosmos' that kosmos, that well ordered whole is not of God but of the devil. So everlasting fire WOULD fit into that. Also as I do my Connecting The Dots Illustration, the first point is showing yet another attribute of God's character & nature: God is consuming fire. That IS His nature, just as much as He is omnipresent or love or just, etc. Most people do not even talk about this or avoid the truth that this is indeed who God is. But once again, keep in mind that the fire in the spiritual realm is not like the fire in the physical realm. I just briefly touched on it but also consider James 3:1-12 & how the tongue plays a role in all that people have ever rashly said, that will come back to plague them. It acts LIKE A FIRE & will play a key part of the torment & suffering in Gehenna aka the lake of fire in the spiritual realm, not actual PHYSICAL FLAMES. One cannot kill the soul, as Jesus taught, like they can kill the body. Nor will the resurrected IMMORTAL bodies of both believers & unbelievers be killed as well. Their immortal bodies cannot be destroyed, go back into dust or be annihilated. They are no longer corruptible. Doing a study on the word 'destroy' gives good insight into the different meanings. In Mt 10:28 the word destroyed there has the idea of 'bringing to ruin' rather than annihilation or destruction, since the resurrected body at the time of being cast into the Gehenna of fire aka the Lake of fire, has been made incorruptible & immortal; it will be unending & exist forever. Read over I Corinthians 15 again slowly, where it talks about this. In 20 of the verses where it is talking about the resurrection, 19 times the word BODY is mentioned. The soul/spirit are NOT resurrected, only the body is. The soul/spirit RETURN TO the body just as they originally DEPARTED FROM the body. I will deal later in my Illustration with the afterlife of where the soul/spirit go after they depart from the body. The Scriptures indeed challenge our human reasonings & help us to be transformed in the spirit of our minds by God's Spirit.
5/20/2017 3:25:30 PM	Is Hell for all eternity?
a_nubian Columbus, OH 53, joined Jan. 2011	Brashdoc I haven't read your newest posts yet. It's not an issue of questioning God. It's an issue of what the bible is actually saying. God is and will be justified in His Judgment of the unrighteous and His chosen manner to punish them will be the Lake of Fire. The bible does state being cast in the Lake of Fire will result in Death. A Narrative An individual walks in a convenient store, steals a candy bar and runs out, is caught and bought to court. The judge then sentences that individual to life in prison without the possibility of parole. Everyone would be outraged, for there is no justice and what would the rationale be to do such a thing? So even as sinners and mere mortals we know the difference between what is just and what is not just; the punishment fitting the crime. To burn people for ever begs the question, how just is that and what is God's rationale? That's why at it's core with regarding the burning of the wicked for ever goes against the very grain of not being Just.
5/20/2017 4:37:32 PM	Is Hell for all eternity?
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 64, joined Feb. 2008	Isn't it funny how many different interpretations of scripture can be made, when we don't make recourse to the teachings of our Holy Mother the Catholic Church?
5/21/2017 9:49:26 AM	Is Hell for all eternity?
kb2222 Jacksonville, FL 76, joined Apr. 2011	Quote from ludlowlowell: Is Satan burning in Hell? If so, Hell must exist. Quote from kb2222: No Satan is not burning in Hell. If he was how could he be influencing man to sin?
5/21/2017 9:53:16 AM	Is Hell for all eternity?
cupocheer Assumption, IL 68, joined May. 2010	Satan is not in hell. As KB states, if Satan were burning in hell there wouldn't be such demonic activities occurring on earth.
5/21/2017 9:54:42 AM	Is Hell for all eternity?
kb2222 Jacksonville, FL 76, joined Apr. 2011	*Quote from kb2222: Brashdoc and isna_la_wica keep me blocked because they can't stand a honest discussion if that discussion leads to having to think outside of their church indoctrinated fundamentalism. But for the benefit of you who might be persuaded by their lengthy theological commentaries I will ask them one question. Brashdoc and isna_la_wica, if God/Jesus hates the sin but loves the sinner why do you believe God/Jesus would order man to kill people for all sorts of reasons (listed below) and then torment them and others day and night in a fiery Hell FOR EVER AND EVER? Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT) Kill Witches (Exodus 22:17 NAB) Kill Homosexuals (Leviticus 20:13 NAB) Kill Fortunetellers (Leviticus 20:27 NAB) Death for Hitting Dad (Exodus 21:15 NAB) Death for Cursing Parents (Proverbs 20:20 NAB, Leviticus 20:9 NLT) Death for Adultery (Leviticus 20:10 NLT) Death for Fornication (Leviticus 21:9 NAB) Death to Followers of Other Religions (Exodus 22:19 NAB) Kill Nonbelievers (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB) Kill False Prophets (Zechariah 13:3 NAB) Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God (Deuteronomy 13:13-18 NLT) Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB) Kill Followers of Other Religions. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB, Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT) Death for Blasphemy (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT) Kill False Prophets (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT, Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT) Infidels and Gays Should Die (Romans 1:24-32 NLT) Kill Anyone who Approaches the Tabernacle (Numbers 1:48-51 NLT) Kill People for Working on the Sabbath (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT) Kill Sons of Sinners (Isaiah 14:21 NAB) Why don't you answer the question, brashdoc/isna_la_wica?
5/22/2017 10:37:47 AM	Is Hell for all eternity?
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	Quote: "'Burn people forever' is a very inflammatory statement. It implies several things grossly untrue about God: He is cruel. He seems to delight in seeing people suffer. He is unjust. He is spiteful. He is partial in His judgment. He is unfair, etc." I stand by what I said above. It is worded in a way to mock the true, living holy & just God. (Rom 9:14) Evidently you do not see that. You are also implying that people don't deserve that just & impartial eternal punishment decided by God because of a lifetime of sinning & rebelling against God. Yet people are without excuse (Rom 1:20; 2:1: 3:19; Mt 12:36) because God has made Himself clearly known to them ever since the beginning of creation but the truth is suppressed in unrighteousness. It is an appeal that humanly justifies several unbiblical teachings: annihilation (which you believe in) & universal salvation. It appeals to the emotions & implies God can't be that unjust or cruel. So therefore, these false teachings must be true so we can make God into a just God now. Nothing can be further from the truth. Your very response above shows you do not understand the true nature of God as He reveals Himself in the Scriptures, that He is holy & will be treated as holy & He is consuming fire, which is eternal, because God is eternal. You do not understand the true nature of man, that he is UNREGENERATE (no spiritual life from God) & wicked from the inside out. You do not fully apprehend the true nature of sin & its consequences against a holy God & His holy law. You don't yet have a more fuller biblical fear of God & treating Him as holy. You have chosen to believe a lie rather than the truth as I said before. What God says He will do. We all have done this at times. You also don't fully apprehend the whole point of the incarnation & its absolute necessity. There is no escaping the wrath & judgment of God apart from Christ & His shed blood & resurrection. Why did God the Son do ALL OF THAT--leave heaven, make himself of no reputation, humbling Himself, & especially enduring the CONTRADICTION of sinners against Himself (, He being the HOLY ONE without sin? Why would the Judge of the living & the dead say this if it wasn't right & just & true? Luke 12:46-49 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him, & at an hour of which he is unaware. Then He will cut him to pieces & assign him A PLACE WITH THE UNBELIEVERS. 47That servant who knows his master’s will but does not get ready or follow his instructions will be beaten with many blows. 48But the one who unknowingly does things worthy of punishment will be beaten with few blows. I have come to cast fire upon the earth & how I wish it were already kindled! People may think the God of the OT is cruel & wicked in punishing people & casting them into the lake of fire for eternity. But they shrink in horror when it is mentioned that the God of the OT is Jesus as well, that he prepared the places of the abyss/bottomless pit & Sheol/Hades/lower places of the earth and Gehenna/Lake of fire when He created all things or when Jesus taught as He did above. He is the very One who who coming to bring fire upon the earth & judge all its inhabitants. It is Jesus they will blaspheme as He brings wrath & judgment. It is Jesus who is sitting on the great white throne in Rev 20 & who casts the unbelieving wicked people & the wicked evil spirits into the Lake of fire, the Gehenna of fire. All are brought to ruin & humiliation, who once boasted & defied the living God. All those who are there deserve the just sentence & the duration of it from a just Christ. Does Jesus do this arbitarily? What is the basis for all these unbelievers being judged? Do you know? Has God not repeatedly warned & spelled out what will happen to the unbelieving & the wicked by his prophets & apostles? What is the only basis for escaping God's wrath when they stand before the throne? Rev 20:15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book OF LIFE, he was thrown into the lake of fire. (Rev 13:8; 17:8; You apparently don't fully understand the purpose of the Law in convicting a sinner of sin & judgment. (I Tim 1:9) The Law has no compromise as the writer of Hebrews says (ch. 10). We all need mercy in understanding these things but God will not withhold His righteous judgment nor compromise His character, His Word & holiness--for anyone. He is impartial in His dealings with mankind. Your focus is on questioning the supposed severity of the punishment not on a holy, righteous & just God Who has been offended & says the punishment is just & right. Your focus is on questioning the justness of God. Your focus is on not understanding the severity needed for rebellious enemies of God who hate Him & defy Him & refuse to repent & treat God as unholy. This is despite all the kindness & mercy He has shown by prolonging His justified holy wrath, while at the same time being intensely anger EVERY SINGLE DAY over all the sin & wickedness being committed (Ps 7:11; 11:7), especially against the innocent & against His holy people. One needs to recognize that man was created in the image of God, who is spirit, in His likeness. Unregenerate man (spiritually dead in trespasses & sins) continues to consciously exist into eternity in both the first death & the second death. If man goes through the first death & is still spiritually dead & consciously existing in Sheol/Hades in the afterlife, awaiting the judgment, what makes you think after being resurrected from there & given new spiritual bodies that can no longer decay nor are incorruptible but immortal (I Cor 15--made to exist for eternity), that somehow, defying all these truths, they are going to be annihilated/exterminated? It is a myth not bibical truth.
5/22/2017 10:44:26 AM	Is Hell for all eternity?
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	(continued) A great example is misinterpreting the use of the word destruction as annihilation. Let us take the beast in Revelation as an example. Rev 17:8-11 I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of God’s holy people, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus. I will explain to you the mystery of the woman & of the beast she rides... The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not & yet will come up out of the Abyss & go to its DESTRUCTION...This calls for a mind with wisdom. The beast who once was & now is not, is an eighth KING. He belongs to the seven [human kings described as HORNS] & is going to his DESTRUCTION. So far so good on this 8th king on the earth being annihilated because he was going to his destruction. Daniel 7:11 "Then I kept looking because of the sound of the boastful words which the HORN was speaking; I kept looking until THE BEAST was slain & its body was DESTROYED & given to the burning fire. Rev 18:5-8,20,24 Her sins are piled up to heaven & God has REMEMBERED her crimes. Give back to her as she has given; pay her back double for what she has done. Pour her a double portion from her own cup. Give her as much TORMENT & GRIEF as the glory & luxury she gave herself (Lk 16:19,25)...She will be CONSUMED BY FIRE, for MIGHTY is the Lord God who judges her...“Rejoice over her, you heavens! Rejoice, you people of God! Rejoice, apostles & prophets! For God has judged her with the judgment she imposed on you.” ...In her was found the blood of prophets & of God’s holy people, of all who have been slaughtered on the earth.” Rev 19:2 “Hallelujah! Salvation and glory & power belong to our God, for true & just are His judgments." (Rev 15:2-4) Rev 19:19-21 Then I saw THE BEAST & the kings of the earth with their armies assembled to wage war against the One seated on the horse & against His army. 20But the beast was captured & with him THE FALSE PROPHET who had performed signs on his behalf, by which he deceived those who had the mark of the beast & worshiped its image. Both of them were thrown alive INTO THE FIERY LAKE OF BURNING SULFUR. 21And the rest were killed with the sword that proceeded from the mouth of the One seated on the horse. Finally, it appears the beast will be annihilated. He will finally be destroyed. He has gone to his destruction. Good riddance to that man, the 8th king who led the world astray in his rulership. Rev 12:10,11 For the accuser of our brethren, who ACCUSES THEM BEFORE OUR GOD DAY & NIGHT, has been hurled down. 11They triumphed over him by the blood of the Lamb & the word of their testimony. Rev 10:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where THE BEAST & THE FALSE PROPHET had been thrown. THEY will be TORMENTED DAY & NIGHT FOR EVER & EVER. HOLD IT. I thought the beast was annihilated, destroyed, that he had gone to destruction. Yet here he is, alive & conscious, still in the lake of burning sulfur, only instead of being annihilated, he is being tormented day & night--and for how long--for ever & ever. So if these two men, human beings, the beast & the false prophet aren't annihilated & suffer this punishment, what makes you think that other human beings also cast into the lake of fire for their destruction (Mt 10:28) will, in contradiction to these Scriptural truths won't suffer the same punishment day & night for ever & ever? Does the Scripture give another witness to these already shown passages? Yes. Rev 14:9-11 And a third angel followed them, calling in loud a voice, “If anyone worships the beast & its image & receives its mark on his forehead or hand, HE TOO--will drink the wine of God’s anger, poured undiluted into the cup of His wrath & he [too] will be TORMENTED in fire & brimstone in the presence of the holy angels & of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise forever & ever. DAY & NIGHT THERE WILL BE NO REST FOR THOSE who worship the beast & its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” God does mean what He says & says what He means. That is why I preach the gospel truth both of the bad news & the good news. Unless a person sees the severity of his sin against a holy God, they will not see a need for Christ & the cross. It is man's erroneous sense of justice & unbelief to make up a false teaching that God is going to annihilate wicked sinners against a holy God. God is perfectly just, righteous & holy to sentence people who are His sworn enemies in rebellion against Him, to endure the just punishments in the Gehenna of fire aka the Lake of fire. Again you seem to not fully grasp the very nature of God as consuming fire (Deut 4:24; 9:3; Heb 12:29) & the difference of God's fire in the spiritual realm vs. that in the physical realm. The fire in the spiritual realm, where Sheol/Hades/temporary hell is & where Gehenna/Lake of fire/Second Death is, is not like physical fire that completely consumes a person's mortal body or possessions or things on the earth. The eternal fire is eternal because God as consuming fire IS ETERNAL. God doesn't change. Therefore the fire is eternal & spiritual when manifested in the spiritual realm, because God is spirit, invisible. When God manifested His holiness before Moses in Exodus 3, the bush did NOT burn up, like physical fire. Moses was told to take his shoes off because the place he was standing on was holy ground. Heb 12:18-21 You have not come to a mountain that can be touched & that is burning with fire; to darkness, gloom & storm; to a trumpet blast or to such a voice speaking words that those who heard it begged that no further word be spoken to them, because they could not bear what was commanded: “If even an animal touches the mountain, it must be stoned to death.” The sight was so terrifying that Moses said, "I am exceedingly fearful & shaking [like an earthquake]." But this spiritual fire is the torment that comes from the consequences of sin: shame, regret, grief, wailing, continued gnashing of teeth in rebellious anger against a just & holy God & so much more. It is the suffering of being in darkness, apart from the light & life of God that was rejected over & over again over one's lifetime, resisting the convicting work of the Holy Spirit throughout their lives--to the point of no remedy (2 Chronicles 36:16); they had finally filled up the measure of their sins, the full measure of storing up wrath in their lifetime. (Mt 23:32; Rom 2:1,5) Was Dives, the certain rich man, suffering the torments in flames in Hades, complaining about the unjustness of what he received? No. Not once. He just wanted a brief moment of relief by the briefest amount possible. Yet he accepted what Abraham said:
5/22/2017 10:45:29 AM	Is Hell for all eternity?
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	(conclusion) Luke 16:25-28 But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that IN YOUR LIFETIME you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here & U are in torment. BESIDES ALL THIS, between us & U a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’ “He answered, ‘Then I beg U, father, send Lazarus to my family, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’“Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses & the Prophets; let them listen to them.’?‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will REPENT.’He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses & the Prophets, they will not be CONVINCED even if someone rises from the dead.’ But what was tormenting him while he was in the spiritual flames in the spiritual hidden place in the spiritual realm, apart from his body? Was it the flames actually physically burning him? He didn't have a physical, mortal body to burn. Or was he burning up so much from some physical fire that he was thirsty? He tells us above what was tormenting him. If the evil, sin & wickedness of one lifetime is not justly punishable for eternity in Gehenna/Lake of fire, then God is not just or holy or eternal. To deny the reality of the former is to deny the reality of the latter. Those who do so are ENEMIES OF God (Nahum 1:2; Heb 10:27; Rom 5:10; 11:28). Those who do so are ADVERSARIES AGAINST God (Deut 32:41-43; Micah 5:9; I Sam 2:10) . Those who do so are in REBELLION AGAINST God. Those who continue to sin without fear of punishment or accountability are DEFYING the living God. When one does choose unbelief--not believing what God says & what God had the HOLY prophets say & the Holy apostles say--that He will punish sin & wickedness for eternity--one is sugar coating the holiness of God; one is sugar coating the awefulness of sin & rebellion against God, one is not showing the nature of man as horrid as it is.'
5/22/2017 10:52:04 AM	Is Hell for all eternity?
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	I will address your last two posts as I get time. You can also look at my thread: Do As the Bereans Did Acts 17:11 and Practice Heb 13:1 for more details & my illustration of connecting the dots.
5/22/2017 11:01:01 AM	Is Hell for all eternity?
kb2222 Jacksonville, FL 76, joined Apr. 2011	* Quote from kb2222: Quote from kb2222: Brashdoc and isna_la_wica keep me blocked because they can't stand a honest discussion if that discussion leads to having to think outside of their church indoctrinated fundamentalism. But for the benefit of you who might be persuaded by their lengthy theological commentaries I will ask them one question. Brashdoc and isna_la_wica, if God/Jesus hates the sin but loves the sinner why do you believe God/Jesus would order man to kill people for all sorts of reasons (listed below) and then torment them and others day and night in a fiery Hell FOR EVER AND EVER? Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT) Kill Witches (Exodus 22:17 NAB) Kill Homosexuals (Leviticus 20:13 NAB) Kill Fortunetellers (Leviticus 20:27 NAB) Death for Hitting Dad (Exodus 21:15 NAB) Death for Cursing Parents (Proverbs 20:20 NAB, Leviticus 20:9 NLT) Death for Adultery (Leviticus 20:10 NLT) Death for Fornication (Leviticus 21:9 NAB) Death to Followers of Other Religions (Exodus 22:19 NAB) Kill Nonbelievers (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB) Kill False Prophets (Zechariah 13:3 NAB) Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God (Deuteronomy 13:13-18 NLT) Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB) Kill Followers of Other Religions. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB, Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT) Death for Blasphemy (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT) Kill False Prophets (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT, Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT) Infidels and Gays Should Die (Romans 1:24-32 NLT) Kill Anyone who Approaches the Tabernacle (Numbers 1:48-51 NLT) Kill People for Working on the Sabbath (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT) Kill Sons of Sinners (Isaiah 14:21 NAB) Why don't you answer the question, brashdoc/isna_la_wica?*

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