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12/10/2009 7:15:00 PM President Obama is a wimp and Senate Democrats have caved...  

idlehour
Over 2,000 Posts (2,259)
Montgomery, AL
61, joined May. 2009


to the Health Insurance Industry. When you have a significant majority in the Senate and House, and occupy the White House and can't get a minimal public option in a health care reform bill, you have lost your moral high ground to govern. And please don't bring up cloture votes and the difficultly of getting 60 senators to vote for cloture in order to stop a filibuster.....there is a Senate process call reconciliation that has been used to pass contentious legislation, mostly by the Republicans to pass their trickle down tax cuts, and it only requires a majority vote in the Senate. By not using this path, the Democrats have abandoned the people that voted them into office and caved to the profiteering Health Insurance Industry and given us an abomination of a health care bill that no one will be happy with! Thank you President Obama and Harry Reid for doing the work of the Republicans!

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12/11/2009 8:05:28 AM President Obama is a wimp and Senate Democrats have caved...  
r2d21
Suttons Bay, MI
68, joined Jul. 2009


I agree. The Dems are handing the 2010 congressional election to the republicans and handing the 2012 presidential election to the republicans.

12/11/2009 4:35:18 PM President Obama is a wimp and Senate Democrats have caved...  

danguitarman
Redding, CA
63, joined Aug. 2007


Its not over yet. Obama didn't create political corruption. Congress was full of corrupt politicians before Obama got elected. All of the republicans are corrupt and enough of the democrats are corrupt to block either single payer or a strong public option. But the SOLUTION is to make MEDICARE the public option. That always was the solution. There is no reason that Medicare shouldn't be made available to everyone who wants to buy it. They could charge more for people under 65 and it would be far better than any private insurance. If the current "reform" goes in that direction, then its a good thing.

I sympathize with you and I feel the same frustration. Obama is not FDR. And that is a disappointment. But that doesn't mean that he's a wimp or a loser. IT AIN'T OVER YET!!



[Edited 12/11/2009 4:36:40 PM ]

12/14/2009 6:41:20 PM President Obama is a wimp and Senate Democrats have caved...  

pamela0324
Pasadena, MD
63, joined Nov. 2007


I agree...it ain't over yet!

Lieberman needs to be punished by the Senate. And NEVER trusted again!

Obama is a centrist and has always been a centrist. He is also a community organizer and always strives for consensus. He will not muscle the Congress. He was a member of the Senate not very long ago and still respects the Congress and its members.

Rahm Emmanual is the warrior in the White House and it is he who is leading the charge and is at the elbows of those who cut the deals. And as Rahm knows, politics is a full contact sport and he is NOT afraid to throw some elbows into the ribs of his opponents.

It ain't over 'til its over....with apologies to Yogi Bera or whoever said something so pithy....and true!

Pam

12/14/2009 8:45:22 PM President Obama is a wimp and Senate Democrats have caved...  

idlehour
Over 2,000 Posts (2,259)
Montgomery, AL
61, joined May. 2009


Quote from pamela0324:
I agree...it ain't over yet!

Lieberman needs to be punished by the Senate. And NEVER trusted again!

Obama is a centrist and has always been a centrist. He is also a community organizer and always strives for consensus. He will not muscle the Congress. He was a member of the Senate not very long ago and still respects the Congress and its members.

Rahm Emmanual is the warrior in the White House and it is he who is leading the charge and is at the elbows of those who cut the deals. And as Rahm knows, politics is a full contact sport and he is NOT afraid to throw some elbows into the ribs of his opponents.

It ain't over 'til its over....with apologies to Yogi Bera or whoever said something so pithy....and true!

Pam


It was over weeks if not months ago, and it was certainly over by the time you made your post...y'all who say it ant over need to start following the bouncing ball. It ant that dang difficult people!!! And we democrats talk about ignorant redneck republicans!

As for your thug Rehm Emanuel...he said today that the administration was ok with a bill without a public option and also one without allowing people 55 and over to buy into medicare. In other words, your Rahm Emanuel caved to every demand of Joe Lieberman. Emanuel may have been elbowing senators, but Lieberman wasn't one of them.

12/15/2009 10:19:47 AM President Obama is a wimp and Senate Democrats have caved...  
r2d21
Suttons Bay, MI
68, joined Jul. 2009


This entire health care drive has failed. If they pass a bill without a public option and medicare buy in; but with a mandate, it'll end up being worse than if they did nothing at all. They've all proved to me that they are nothing but a bunch of bought and paid for politicians. I don't care what color they wear on their sleeves. They're all corrupt. If that isn't clear to everyone by now, you haven't been paying attention.

All I can say is I'll be 65 in 2014 so I'll have medicare. The rest of you will be screwed if you don't have employer provided health care. Even if you do, you'll be paying at least double from todays rates with less coverage as if you have any coverage now. We need a public system like all the civilized industrial countries have. We're not civilized, though. Our politicians have proven that.

12/15/2009 3:53:14 PM President Obama is a wimp and Senate Democrats have caved...  

idlehour
Over 2,000 Posts (2,259)
Montgomery, AL
61, joined May. 2009


The American people will see it for what it is, an utter and complete failure....the only redeeming feature of this bill now appears to be that insurance companies cannot deny cover based on pre-existing conditions, but nothing has been mentioned whether there are cost controls (there aren't) on what insurance companies can charge people with those pre-existing conditions. So we have to assume that is a joke also.

But you are right R2D2, the whole process was a sham, and a total disgrace. Two thirds of Americans wanted a public option of some sort, and this lazy, shiftless democratic president fumbled the ball repeatedly all through the debate - which allowed the scoundrel Joe Liebermen to essentially destroy any reform. The Democrats have lost the moral high ground and they will be overwhelmed in next year's mid-term elections by a party that is exponentially worse.

The moral of the story, when in command, Command !!!! Health care reform is dead, at least in most of our life times.

12/17/2009 6:44:12 PM President Obama is a wimp and Senate Democrats have caved...  

danguitarman
Redding, CA
63, joined Aug. 2007


Pamela, thanks for agreeing.

Idlehour, what about the expansion of Medicaid and the employer mandate? Those parts of the legislation are in both the house and senate bills and will provide health insurance coverage to an extra 30 MILLION people who have no health insurance right now. You can't tell me that this is not a good thing!

I don't like the individual mandate. I don't like the continued exemption of the insurance companies from anti-trust laws. I think that Medicare should be available for anyone who wants to buy it! But if you, Idlehour, were a member of congress, could you vote against a bill which will expand Medicaid coverage and force employers to provide health insurance to their employees? How could you vote against providing health insurance to 30 million people who don't have it now, and with subsidies to pay for it?

I like Howard Dean a lot. But I think that if he were a member of congress, he too would vote for this bill regardless of what he says today. Medicaid must be expanded now! We need an employer mandate now! These are real and important accomplishments. And they will improve the lives of some 30 million Americans who have no health insurance now and are clogging up emergency rooms instead of going to a doctor's office. There is also funding in this bill for public health clinics.

Yes, we will still have the worst healthcare system of any advanced country in the world. That's just an indication of how far we have to go. But it is still BETTER than what we have today. And its MUCH MUCH BETTER for those 30 million Americans who will get insured.

12/18/2009 9:17:59 AM President Obama is a wimp and Senate Democrats have caved...  
r2d21
Suttons Bay, MI
68, joined Jul. 2009


The employer mandate only applies to employers with a payroll in excess of $500,000. It applies to almost no employers. Over fifty percent of people work for small businesses that will be exempted.

The mandate portion of the bill will be thrown out as unconstitutional. Fifty percent of the Medicaid expansion will have to be borne by the States from what I understand and the States cannot afford it.

there is a Senate process call reconciliation that has been used to pass contentious legislation, mostly by the Republicans to pass their trickle down tax cuts, and it only requires a majority vote in the Senate. By not using this path, the Democrats have abandoned the people that voted them into office and caved to the profiteering Health Insurance Industry and given us an abomination of a health care bill that no one will be happy with! Thank you President Obama and Harry Reid for doing the work of the Republicans!


I agree wholeheartedly. The Senate has sold out the American people. Insurance company stock has been exploding in value on the stock market. This is a windfall for the Anti-trust exempt health insurance companies.

12/18/2009 5:44:13 PM President Obama is a wimp and Senate Democrats have caved...  

danguitarman
Redding, CA
63, joined Aug. 2007


Thank you R2D21. I was not aware that the Medicaid expansion is not fully paid for and that fact, if accurate, is troubling. I did know that the employer mandate is limited to employers with a payroll of $500,000. But I did not hear you dispute the claim that the bill will bring health insurance to 30 million Americans, mostly working Americans, who don't have any now. And that the cost of this will largely be subsidized by the federal government. If those facts are true, I still don't see how any liberal could vote against it.

As far as the individual mandate is concerned, I think it is horrible. I was surprised to hear you say that it would be struck down as unconstitutional. That would surprise me very much but I would be delighted. How can the federal government make it a crime to not buy insurance from a private cartel which is not subject to anti-trust laws?

12/18/2009 6:14:41 PM President Obama is a wimp and Senate Democrats have caved...  

idlehour
Over 2,000 Posts (2,259)
Montgomery, AL
61, joined May. 2009


You are right R2D2, for the last 3 months the broader stock market has been going sideways, but miraculously health insurance company stocks have sky rocketed....and you are also right that this current senate bill will not cover any where near 30 million.

But the biggest problem with this bill is the lack of cost controls on what insurance companies can charge individuals with pre-existing conditions. Sure the bill says insurance companies have to offer coverage to all people, but what use is that right if insurance companies can charge you such a high premium that there is no way you can purchase coverage.

12/18/2009 8:14:26 PM President Obama is a wimp and Senate Democrats have caved...  
r2d21
Suttons Bay, MI
68, joined Jul. 2009


By David B. Rivkin Jr. and Lee A. Casey
Saturday, August 22, 2009 -- The Constitution assigns only limited, enumerated powers to Congress and none, including the power to regulate interstate commerce or to impose taxes, would support a federal mandate requiring anyone who is otherwise without health insurance to buy it.

Although the Supreme Court has interpreted Congress's commerce power expansively, this type of mandate would not pass muster even under the most aggressive commerce clause cases. In Wickard v. Filburn (1942), the court upheld a federal law regulating the national wheat markets. The law was drawn so broadly that wheat grown for consumption on individual farms also was regulated. Even though this rule reached purely local (rather than interstate) activity, the court reasoned that the consumption of homegrown wheat by individual farms would, in the aggregate, have a substantial economic effect on interstate commerce, and so was within Congress's reach.

The court reaffirmed this rationale in 2005 in Gonzales v. Raich, when it validated Congress's authority to regulate the home cultivation of marijuana for personal use. In doing so, however, the justices emphasized that -- as in the wheat case -- "the activities regulated by the [Controlled Substances Act] are quintessentially economic." That simply would not be true with regard to an individual health insurance mandate.

The otherwise uninsured would be required to buy coverage, not because they were even tangentially engaged in the "production, distribution or consumption of commodities," but for no other reason than that people without health insurance exist. The federal government does not have the power to regulate Americans simply because they are there. Significantly, in two key cases, United States v. Lopez (1995) and United States v. Morrison (2000), the Supreme Court specifically rejected the proposition that the commerce clause allowed Congress to regulate noneconomic activities merely because, through a chain of causal effects, they might have an economic impact. These decisions reflect judicial recognition that the commerce clause is not infinitely elastic and that, by enumerating its powers, the framers denied Congress the type of general police power that is freely exercised by the states.


The other obvious alternative is to use Congress's power to tax and spend. In an effort, perhaps, to anchor this mandate in that power, the Senate version of the individual mandate envisions that failure to comply would be met with a penalty, to be collected by the IRS. This arrangement, however, is not constitutional either.

Like the commerce power, the power to tax gives the federal government vast authority over the public, and it is well settled that Congress can impose a tax for regulatory rather than purely revenue-raising purposes. Yet Congress cannot use its power to tax solely as a means of controlling conduct that it could not otherwise reach through the commerce clause or any other constitutional provision. In the 1922 case Bailey v. Drexel Furniture, the Supreme Court ruled that Congress could not impose a "tax" to penalize conduct (the utilization of child labor) it could not also regulate under the commerce clause. Although the court's interpretation of the commerce power's breadth has changed since that time, it has not repudiated the fundamental principle that Congress cannot use a tax to regulate conduct that is otherwise indisputably beyond its regulatory power.

Of course, these constitutional impediments can be avoided if Congress is willing to raise corporate and/or income taxes enough to fund fully a new national health system. Absent this politically dangerous -- and therefore unlikely -- scenario, advocates of universal health coverage must accept that Congress's power, like that of the other branches, has limits. These limits apply regardless of how important the issue may be, and neither Congress nor the president can take constitutional short cuts. The genius of our system is that, no matter how convinced our elected officials may be that certain measures are in the public interest, their goals can be accomplished only in accord with the powers and processes the Constitution mandates, processes that inevitably make them accountable to the American people.


Here's a great article that lays out what the federal government can do and can't do. Not only would the insurance mandate exceed their power under the commerce clause, the tax penalty would go beyond any authority to tax. The constitution forbids any kind of capitation tax ie; per person tax, poll tax, per head tax. I can be taxed if I engage in commerce. My citizenship cannot be taxed. Congress knows that. This mandate won't get by the first federal judge that comes across it. It'll get tossed. Pres. Obama knows this. He taught constitutional law. Makes me wonder what his game plan is?

If this were to survive, then what's next. You all going to obey when the government mandates you can only buy American cars? I don't believe I'd want to live in that kind of America.



[Edited 12/18/2009 8:25:54 PM ]

12/19/2009 4:37:43 AM President Obama is a wimp and Senate Democrats have caved...  

danguitarman
Redding, CA
63, joined Aug. 2007


Thank you R2D2 for that interesting article and analysis. I studied constitutional law also, although I didn't teach it like Obama did and I'm sure that Obama knows more than you and I both. The justification for the mandate would come under the commerce clause and this is usually stated explicitly in the statute itself. I don't think that it is reasonable to contend that health insurance has no impact on commerce. That would be enough to justify the statute. But remember that congress has passed many laws governing health insurance in the past, such as COBRA, and none of these have been struck down as unconstitutional. If congress' power was as limited as you claim, then there could be no Medicare or Medicaid or VA healthcare. Health insurance and healthcare are both economic activities and are commerce in and of themselves. There is no way that that any part of this legislation would be struck down as unconstitutional in spite of the interesting article that you posted.

12/19/2009 9:26:12 AM President Obama is a wimp and Senate Democrats have caved...  
r2d21
Suttons Bay, MI
68, joined Jul. 2009


Quote from danguitarman:
Thank you R2D2 for that interesting article and analysis. I studied constitutional law also, although I didn't teach it like Obama did and I'm sure that Obama knows more than you and I both. The justification for the mandate would come under the commerce clause and this is usually stated explicitly in the statute itself. I don't think that it is reasonable to contend that health insurance has no impact on commerce. That would be enough to justify the statute. But remember that congress has passed many laws governing health insurance in the past, such as COBRA, and none of these have been struck down as unconstitutional. If congress' power was as limited as you claim, then there could be no Medicare or Medicaid or VA healthcare. Health insurance and healthcare are both economic activities and are commerce in and of themselves. There is no way that that any part of this legislation would be struck down as unconstitutional in spite of the interesting article that you posted.


That's not the rule.
the Supreme Court specifically rejected the proposition that the commerce clause allowed Congress to regulate noneconomic activities merely because, through a chain of causal effects, they might have an economic impact
is the rule. The federal government can regulate insurance companies and other engaged in interstate commerce and require this and that. They cannot mandate that I buy anything. I'm not engaging in commerce. I'm just standing on dirt and breathing the air not engaged in any thing even remotely close to commerce.

Can the federal government dictate that I must carry life insurance? Can the federal government dictate that I must own at least one car? Can the federal government dictate that I must attend and graduate from a four year university? After all, these activities might effect commerce. There's no mandate in any of your comparisons. As Americans, we can refuse medical treatment for ourselves at any time and can also refuse any insurance coverages. Can the federal or state governments mandate that I buy car insurance? No, absolutely not. Unless I choose to own a car. Then and only then can any government dictate to me that I must do this or that. And then only as a condition of the privilege to operate the car on the highways.

Can the federal government tax me just because I'm occupying a couple square feet of dirt and legally reside within the borders of this country. Of course not. That goes way beyond any powers granted the federal government by the constitution. I cannot be taxed period unless I engage in commerce ie; earn an income, own or lease property, purchase goods and services, etc.

Even if the commerce clause were stretched beyond any recognition, this health insurance mandate would still fail under the tax and spending powers. So any attempt to enforce the mandate would fail as unconstitutional. PS: I practice law for a living and have done so for 25 years. No way this legislation is constitutional.



[Edited 12/19/2009 9:36:01 AM ]

12/19/2009 10:38:36 AM President Obama is a wimp and Senate Democrats have caved...  
r2d21
Suttons Bay, MI
68, joined Jul. 2009


This is Part I of health care reform. Part II will come after the individual mandate is thrown out by the Judicial Branch which will result in everyone's premiums doubling or tripling. When that happens, all the conservatives will be crying for a public option. I suspect this is what Pres. Obama is up to.

12/19/2009 5:07:47 PM President Obama is a wimp and Senate Democrats have caved...  

danguitarman
Redding, CA
63, joined Aug. 2007


Well, I hope you're right because I would love to see the individual mandate struck down.

12/19/2009 6:16:13 PM President Obama is a wimp and Senate Democrats have caved...  
r2d21
Suttons Bay, MI
68, joined Jul. 2009


I should add that if the individual mandate is struck down, that doesn't mean that the entire bill would be. Often parts of bills are found unconstitutional while the whole remains intact. Thirty million Americans are going to have insurance coverage. That's great.

12/20/2009 10:06:17 AM President Obama is a wimp and Senate Democrats have caved...  

idlehour
Over 2,000 Posts (2,259)
Montgomery, AL
61, joined May. 2009


Quote from r2d21:
This is Part I of health care reform. Part II will come after the individual mandate is thrown out by the Judicial Branch which will result in everyone's premiums doubling or tripling. When that happens, all the conservatives will be crying for a public option. I suspect this is what Pres. Obama is up to.


I won't get in between the constitutional law argument, I'm not qualified, but R2D2, why do you feel that conservative will be crying for a public option if/when the mandate is overturned? Seems to me that they would be arguing that the health care reform law was a mistake and we should return to status quo.

12/20/2009 6:01:41 PM President Obama is a wimp and Senate Democrats have caved...  
r2d21
Suttons Bay, MI
68, joined Jul. 2009


Just speculation on my part. I've read stories where Republicans have claimed credit for medicare back in '64. If this health care reform becomes popular, they'll eventually claim credit for it too. After they're done complaining about it, of course.

12/28/2009 5:51:43 PM President Obama is a wimp and Senate Democrats have caved...  

danguitarman
Redding, CA
63, joined Aug. 2007


After further reflection and some reading I have come to agree with you, R2D2, that the individual mandate will be struck down and the remainder of the legislation will survive. I should mention, however, that I also thought that the federal "do not call registry" law would be struck down; and it was declared unconstitution by two district cournts initially. Sometimes political will triumphs over constitutional arguments. But, as I said, I agree that the individual (but not the employer) mandate should be and probably will be struck down. Thank you for your insight.

12/31/2009 12:48:26 PM President Obama is a wimp and Senate Democrats have caved...  
slapstick_37
Minneapolis, MN
62, joined Nov. 2009


My health insurance premiums (for a single person as I no longer have dependents) is going to be FIVE TIMES what it was, starting tomorrow.

Granted, I was very, very lucky to have coverage for myself for $20 a month through the hospital I work in, BUT to have it increase by five?

We are changing plans starting 01/01/2010. It is clear to me that the insurance companies are going to put the screws to the employers and policyholders. It's a given that the insurance companies are not going to allow themselves to get into a position where they don't make the boatloads of money they are accustomed to.

So much for healthcare reform.........I suspect the middle-class will, once again, get the short end of the stick when all is said and done.

12/31/2009 5:56:30 PM President Obama is a wimp and Senate Democrats have caved...  
r2d21
Suttons Bay, MI
68, joined Jul. 2009


That's why eighty percent of Americans wanted a public option. Blame the republicans and those few conservative democrats for not delivering the public option. Without it, everyone is going to pay. Make the party of "no" PAY! come the next election.

12/31/2009 11:52:27 PM President Obama is a wimp and Senate Democrats have caved...  

winxi
Over 7,500 Posts!! (9,386)
Saint Louis, MO
57, joined Oct. 2009


Quote from r2d21:
That's why eighty percent of Americans wanted a public option. Blame the republicans and those few conservative democrats for not delivering the public option. Without it, everyone is going to pay. Make the party of "no" PAY! come the next election.




1/2/2010 11:33:24 AM President Obama is a wimp and Senate Democrats have caved...  

coolchick
Over 1,000 Posts (1,074)
Woodway, TX
64, joined Nov. 2006


I agree with Dan, that if the bill gets 30 million Americans insurance coverage - that's a very good thing. There's some hoary stuff in the bill, no doubt. But, it will be landmark legislation as big as the creation of Medicare back in 1965.

Dear Slapstick: Yes, the bill isn't going to give "premium pay" relief to single people like you and me. But, there will be subsidies for families of four, and the insurance companies won't be able to charge higher premiums for pre-existing conditions. I say, at least this is a good start. Whatever passes in the final bill, I think we should look at it as the "foot in the door" that we Democrats have been fighting for - for sometime.

We citizens need to keep up the pressure on our representatives in the Congress and Senate. Keep up the emails and phone calls - to let them know what we want. If you're a member of the Democratic Party, then do what you can to help fund our party. We are going to have a big fight with the Republicans in elections this year.

1/2/2010 11:46:49 AM President Obama is a wimp and Senate Democrats have caved...  

idlehour
Over 2,000 Posts (2,259)
Montgomery, AL
61, joined May. 2009


As I read the Senate and House bills, both allow higher premiums for pre-existing conditions. In the Senate bill, insurance companies can charge 3 times as much for pre-existing conditions as they could for a health person the same age, and its 2 times in the House bill. Thats pretty much a denial of insurance for most people.

1/2/2010 11:58:29 AM President Obama is a wimp and Senate Democrats have caved...  

idlehour
Over 2,000 Posts (2,259)
Montgomery, AL
61, joined May. 2009


Bottom line is this bill is pretty bad....the only redeeming feature would be that it might be easier to modified and upgrade at a later time by reconciliation votes (51 votes) in the Senate, instead of requiring cloture votes (60 votes in the senate). Other than that, imo its worthless....for its only selling point being that it provides 30 million of our most unproductive citizens health care is not a bill that middle America is going to look kindly on. This bill most likely will be substantially changed by future republican congresses through reconciliation votes.

1/4/2010 1:02:15 AM President Obama is a wimp and Senate Democrats have caved...  

danguitarman
Redding, CA
63, joined Aug. 2007


These are not 30 million of our "most unproductive citizens" and I found that to be an offensive remark based entirely on ignorance of how difficult it is to get insurance AT ANY PRICE for individuals who are not covered by group insurance under an employer. The "most unproductive" Americans qualify for Medicaid; and they already have government insurance which we all pay for. These 30 million are WORKING PEOPLE whose employers don't provide insurance, and the self-employed, many of whom own their own small businesses but still can't buy health insurance, not because it costs too much, but because the insurance companies WON'T SELL IT TO THEM AT ANY PRICE! I hope that this legislation is aimed at making the insurance companies SPREAD THE RISK which, in theory, is what insuance is all about. But the health insurance companies have done everything in their power to AVOID SHARING THE RISK among all of the applicants for insurance. They don't charge more for higher risk people, they TURN YOU DOWN. It happened to me and to my wife. And we were both in good health!!!!!!!!!!! YOU JUST CAN'T IMAGINE HOW BAD IT IS TO PURCHASE HEALTH INSURANCE (as an individual) UNLESS YOU HAVE DONE IT.



[Edited 1/4/2010 1:06:13 AM ]

1/4/2010 1:28:02 AM President Obama is a wimp and Senate Democrats have caved...  

danguitarman
Redding, CA
63, joined Aug. 2007


I live in a rural area. It may not be as bad in urban areas as it is here to purchase health insurance. There are two sources of health insurance here in Redding for purchase by individuals: Blue Cross and Blue Shield. There are no other companies selling health insurance to individuals in this area is what I was told by several independent insurance agents. Blue Cross and Blue Shield offer a PPO. There are NO HMOs. None. There is nowhere else to go. If you are turned down by these two companies, you are SOL. One of these companies once turned me down for my blind eye. The other one turned me down because of my sighted eye. Neither of these eyes required any surgury or medical procedure or drugs or ANYTHING. But I've been turned down for insurance because I had an eye operation TWENTY-FIVE YEARS BEFORE THE APPLICATION. This is real. I'm not kidding. One insurance agent had me change my business from a sole proprietorship to a partnership with my wife so that we could get health insurance. I had to hire an attorney to form the partnership and it meant two sets of tax returns for the accountant and this was all for the privilege of paying way too much money for an insurance policy with a $5,000 deductible that wouldn't pay for doctor visits or tests or drugs. I don't know what it did pay for because it never paid out anything.

I'm not ecstatic about the bill. But alot of those 30 million people have got worse stories than mine, just trying to BUY health insurance. If the bill will force the insurance companies to insure all comers, that is a big improvement, even if they have to pay 2 or 3 times more. I would rather see the insurers forced to SPREAD THE RISK by charging everyone the same price for the same policy. But it does sound like this bill is going to prevent a lot of medical bakruptcies and destitution, so I'm for it.



[Edited 1/4/2010 1:32:20 AM ]

1/4/2010 8:04:25 AM President Obama is a wimp and Senate Democrats have caved...  
slapstick_37
Minneapolis, MN
62, joined Nov. 2009


Dan, I couldn't agree more, and feel slightly wimpy for complaining about my situation. I, at least, have coverage, which is more than many people have.

You are right when you talk about the unproductive being covered by Medicaid. Unfortunately, for many young, brainless woman, getting pregnant again and again because they can be on Medicaid is the way to go. From a medical standpoint, it's better to cover them prenataly and have a healthy baby (outcome) than to NOT give them healthcare and have to take care of a sick baby in the end.

It's a really, really sad situation, and it breaks my heart to think about it.

1/4/2010 1:48:02 PM President Obama is a wimp and Senate Democrats have caved...  
laugh_lines
Ogden, UT
58, joined Nov. 2009


In my opinion, the majority of people who are complaining about 'socialized' medicine are the ones who have never had to go without health care. They've always been able to get the medical and dental assistance they've needed. They do not realize that they are just one accident ... one illness ... away from being one of the 30 million uninsured. Take away health insurance from Congress and see how long it will take for them to come up with a viable health care bill.

1/5/2010 10:30:09 PM President Obama is a wimp and Senate Democrats have caved...  

coolchick
Over 1,000 Posts (1,074)
Woodway, TX
64, joined Nov. 2006


Idlehour. Please ease up on your assessment of the 30 million uninsured. I think you're way off base there.

Dan. Thanks for coming to the defense of the 30 million uninsured, many of whom are the working poor - which means they are working their asses off and still can't afford health insurance. They deserve to have coverage.

It aint over till it's over. The House and Senate have yet to hammer out the final compromise from their two different bills. Word is that the Dems are going to pull together something that smells very much like a public option - but will shield it with a cloaking device to fool the Kling-Ons (er, I mean the Republicans).

1/6/2010 6:45:24 AM President Obama is a wimp and Senate Democrats have caved...  

danguitarman
Redding, CA
63, joined Aug. 2007


Hi CoolChick! There's not going to be a public option. Period. That's what Idlehour and other liberal, including myself, are upset about. But that doesn't mean the bill is wothless as has been claimed on this thread. There are 47 million uninsured Americans who aren't
poor enough to qualify for Medicaid or old enough to qualify for Medicare. This bill will bring health insurance to 30 million of those 47 million. It will expand eligibility for Medicaid to the working poor and force large employers to give health insurance to their employees. I do not know what portion of the cost must be paid for by the employers. And it will also prevent the insurance companies from turning applicants down because of health history, although the applicants can be charged 2 or 3 times as much as standard rates.

Its not what we hoped for. But it is reform and it is an improvement. The Democratic party and President Obama will deserve the credit for this improvement. But we will still have the worst healthcare system of any advanced country in the world, and the most expensive.



[Edited 1/6/2010 6:49:13 AM ]