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| 1/6/2017 12:02:25 PM |
Mary is the new Ark of the Covenant. | Page 2 |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
64, joined Feb. 2008
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"Pray, one for another." --James 5:16 refers to the living not the dead. The dead have passed from this world. To pray to the dead to pray for you to God only shows your self imposed separation from God, Ludlow.
Right! 100% right! For once we are in agreement! It refers to the living, not the dead.
And the saints, in Heaven enjoying the beatific vision, are very much alive.
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| 1/6/2017 2:24:59 PM |
Mary is the new Ark of the Covenant. | Page 2 |
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share_n_love
Fort Wayne, IN
61, joined Dec. 2012
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No one goes to the Father except by Jesus, but that doesn't mean we can't ask our friends---both our friends here on earth and our friends the saints and angels in Heaven---to pray to Jesus for us.
"Pray, one for another."
--James 5:16
Mary is DEAD, and God said the DEAD know nothing. 
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| 1/6/2017 3:21:00 PM |
Mary is the new Ark of the Covenant. | Page 2 |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
64, joined Feb. 2008
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Mary is alive in Heaven, as are all the saints, including of course Abraham, our father in faith. God is not a God of the dead but of the living.
[Edited 1/6/2017 3:21:17 PM ]
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| 1/6/2017 4:30:14 PM |
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kb2222
Jacksonville, FL
76, joined Apr. 2011
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They are dead to the things of this world you brainwashed idiot. Are your parents still alive? How about your grandparents or other relatives? Can you converse with any that are no longer here, Ludlow?
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| 1/6/2017 4:49:58 PM |
Mary is the new Ark of the Covenant. | Page 2 |
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a_nubian
Columbus, OH
53, joined Jan. 2011
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Mary is DEAD, and God said the DEAD know nothing.
Agreed
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| 1/6/2017 5:22:42 PM |
Mary is the new Ark of the Covenant. | Page 2 |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
64, joined Feb. 2008
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They are dead to the things of this world you brainwashed idiot. Are your parents still alive? How about your grandparents or other relatives? Can you converse with any that are no longer here, Ludlow?
My parents and grandparents are still alive---their souls are, either in Heaven, Purgatory, or Hell. If they are in one of the first two they can be prayed to and talked to, and they will hear me. It's what the Apostles Creed calls the communion of saints.
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| 1/6/2017 5:47:42 PM |
Mary is the new Ark of the Covenant. | Page 2 |
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a_nubian
Columbus, OH
53, joined Jan. 2011
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My parents and grandparents are still alive---their souls are, either in Heaven, Purgatory, or Hell. If they are in one of the first two they can be prayed to and talked to, and they will hear me. It's what the Apostles Creed calls the communion of saints.
Eccl 9:5, 6
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
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| 1/6/2017 6:34:01 PM |
Mary is the new Ark of the Covenant. | Page 2 |
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juan3368
Brownsville, TX
50, joined Mar. 2016
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in a few years mary will end up taking jesus place in the church believe me when i tell you this
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| 1/6/2017 6:49:30 PM |
Mary is the new Ark of the Covenant. | Page 2 |
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kb2222
Jacksonville, FL
76, joined Apr. 2011
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My parents and grandparents are still alive---their souls are, either in Heaven, Purgatory, or Hell. If they are in one of the first two they can be prayed to and talked to, and they will hear me. It's what the Apostles Creed calls the communion of saints.
If your "parents and grandparents are still alive" they are still here on the earth, Ludlow. You are an IDIOT.
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| 1/6/2017 8:51:24 PM |
Mary is the new Ark of the Covenant. | Page 2 |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
64, joined Feb. 2008
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in a few years mary will end up taking jesus place in the church believe me when i tell you this
How could that be, when the Church has taught for centuries that Jesus is God Incarnate, and Mary is only a human being?
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| 1/6/2017 9:03:57 PM |
Mary is the new Ark of the Covenant. | Page 2 |
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kb2222
Jacksonville, FL
76, joined Apr. 2011
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How could that be, when the Church has taught for centuries that Jesus is God Incarnate, and Mary is only a human being?
Why do you lie so much? Mary is not "only a human being" to you and your kind. Good grief, this is your thread and look at its title. You Catholics have an abundance of statutes of Mary and you kneel and pray to her much more than you do to God.
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| 1/7/2017 1:21:13 AM |
Mary is the new Ark of the Covenant. | Page 2 |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
64, joined Feb. 2008
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British people kneel before Queen Elizabeth, but they are mot worshipping her.
Have you ever attended a Mass, KB? In the Mass, the chief worship service of the Catholic Church, Jesus is the One Who is emphasized. The Mass is all about Jesus' Body and Blood. Mary is barely mentioned.
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| 1/7/2017 10:39:38 AM |
Mary is the new Ark of the Covenant. | Page 2 |
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kb2222
Jacksonville, FL
76, joined Apr. 2011
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British people kneel before Queen Elizabeth, but they are mot worshipping her.
Have you ever attended a Mass, KB? In the Mass, the chief worship service of the Catholic Church, Jesus is the One Who is emphasized. The Mass is all about Jesus' Body and Blood. Mary is barely mentioned.
British people don't pray to Queen Elizabeth and they don't call her the "new Ark of the Covenant" or the "New Eve" or the "new mother of the human race." Mary is not your mother and the pope is not your father, Ludlow. You are a sick and perverted man to believe God is pleased by your supposedly practice of cannibalism in the Mass.
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| 1/7/2017 2:17:30 PM |
Mary is the new Ark of the Covenant. | Page 2 |
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share_n_love
Fort Wayne, IN
61, joined Dec. 2012
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Mary is alive in Heaven, as are all the saints, including of course Abraham, our father in faith. God is not a God of the dead but of the living.
Mary is NOT alive! 
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| 1/7/2017 3:08:38 PM |
Mary is the new Ark of the Covenant. | Page 2 |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
64, joined Feb. 2008
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Jesus said Abraham, our father in faith, was alive, and that God was the Father of the living, not the dead, so why can't Mary be alive, in Heaven with her beloved husband Joseph and her beloved Son Jesus, and all the angels and saints, praising God forever?
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| 1/7/2017 5:15:22 PM |
Mary is the new Ark of the Covenant. | Page 2 |
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kb2222
Jacksonville, FL
76, joined Apr. 2011
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Ludlow, you spew out this strawman crap because you can't truthfully respond to posts. Who has said Mary or anyone else is not alive in heaven? What has been said is that they are dead to this world just like everyone else who dies and you can't converse with them, they can't hear you and you can't hear them, they have other things to do in their journey towards increasing Godlikeness. You are a sick and perverted man to believe God is pleased by your supposedly practice of cannibalism in the Mass.
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| 1/7/2017 5:22:09 PM |
Mary is the new Ark of the Covenant. | Page 2 |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
64, joined Feb. 2008
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Mary and the saints are not dead to what is going on in this world. Where does scripture say that they are? Mary and the saints made it to Heaven, in part, because they loved their fellow human beings. They don't cease to do so just because they are now in Heaven.
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| 1/7/2017 5:29:49 PM |
Mary is the new Ark of the Covenant. | Page 2 |
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kb2222
Jacksonville, FL
76, joined Apr. 2011
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To believe Mary and the saints and everyone else in the world who has died and made it to heaven is personally cognizant of everyone in the world who talks or prays to her every minute of the day since they died is absolute nonsense. Do you have any dead people talking to you, Ludlow?
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| 1/7/2017 7:31:06 PM |
Mary is the new Ark of the Covenant. | Page 2 |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
64, joined Feb. 2008
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No, but I think I have heard some of the living saints of Heaven talk to me, as I believe God has, not in an audible voice, not as a vision.
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| 1/7/2017 7:34:17 PM |
Mary is the new Ark of the Covenant. | Page 2 |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
64, joined Feb. 2008
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If Mary is not alive and cognizant of what is going on on earth, how did she appear in visions to St. Dominic, St. Simon Stock, St. Juan Diego, St. Bernadette, the three children of Fatima, and many others?
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| 1/7/2017 8:12:00 PM |
Mary is the new Ark of the Covenant. | Page 2 |
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kb2222
Jacksonville, FL
76, joined Apr. 2011
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If Mary is not alive and cognizant of what is going on on earth, how did she appear in visions to St. Dominic, St. Simon Stock, St. Juan Diego, St. Bernadette, the three children of Fatima, and many others?
Were you there? However blessed Mary was she was a mortal the same as everyone else. She was not divine or part of Deity and had no superhuman powers. She went to the grave like everyone else and Jesus sent the Holy Spirit of Truth, the Spirit of the Son into the world as His REPLACEMENT TEACHER not Mary. Mary continues on in her journey towards God likeness. She is in at least the 2nd grade and 2nd graders are no longer concerned with the 1st grade.
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| 1/7/2017 9:11:31 PM |
Mary is the new Ark of the Covenant. | Page 2 |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
64, joined Feb. 2008
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If that is true, KB, how could she have appeared to all those saints I mentioned?
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| 1/7/2017 9:25:31 PM |
Mary is the new Ark of the Covenant. | Page 2 |
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kb2222
Jacksonville, FL
76, joined Apr. 2011
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She didn't. Were you there? Has Mary appeared to you, Ludlow? You Catholics are indoctrinated to believe all kinds of special "stuff" to keep you believing in what the church wants you to believe. Think Eucharist.
Mary was blessed but she was wholly mortal and not divine and she didn't become divine simply by dying.
[Edited 1/7/2017 9:27:31 PM ]
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| 1/7/2017 9:31:18 PM |
Mary is the new Ark of the Covenant. | Page 2 |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
64, joined Feb. 2008
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How do you know she didn't appear to these people?
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| 1/7/2017 9:41:54 PM |
Mary is the new Ark of the Covenant. | Page 2 |
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kb2222
Jacksonville, FL
76, joined Apr. 2011
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Jesus said He was sending the "comforter" the Holy Spirit as His replacement teacher NOT Mary. Mary was blessed but she was wholly mortal and not divine and she didn't become divine simply by dying.
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| 1/8/2017 12:02:02 AM |
Mary is the new Ark of the Covenant. | Page 2 |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
64, joined Feb. 2008
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Mary is, and always was, guided by the Holy Spirit. That's why the angel Gabriel said of her, "Hail, Mary, full of grace". And Mary was present at Pentecost when the Holy Spirit came upon the apostles.
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| 1/8/2017 4:01:42 AM |
Mary is the new Ark of the Covenant. | Page 2 |
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share_n_love
Fort Wayne, IN
61, joined Dec. 2012
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If Mary is not alive and cognizant of what is going on on earth, how did she appear in visions to St. Dominic, St. Simon Stock, St. Juan Diego, St. Bernadette, the three children of Fatima, and many others?
She didn't....
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| 1/8/2017 4:03:31 AM |
Mary is the new Ark of the Covenant. | Page 2 |
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share_n_love
Fort Wayne, IN
61, joined Dec. 2012
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Mary and the saints are not dead to what is going on in this world. Where does scripture say that they are? Mary and the saints made it to Heaven, in part, because they loved their fellow human beings. They don't cease to do so just because they are now in Heaven.
Yes they are dead exactly as God says in His word.
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| 1/8/2017 4:04:26 AM |
Mary is the new Ark of the Covenant. | Page 2 |
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share_n_love
Fort Wayne, IN
61, joined Dec. 2012
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Jesus said Abraham, our father in faith, was alive, and that God was the Father of the living, not the dead, so why can't Mary be alive, in Heaven with her beloved husband Joseph and her beloved Son Jesus, and all the angels and saints, praising God forever?
It is speaking of those given eternal life....not the earthly life.
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| 1/8/2017 7:02:13 PM |
Mary is the new Ark of the Covenant. | Page 2 |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
64, joined Feb. 2008
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Of course, Share, Abraham, Mary, and all the departed saints have eternal life---in Heaven.
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| 1/8/2017 9:52:07 PM |
Mary is the new Ark of the Covenant. | Page 2 |
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share_n_love
Fort Wayne, IN
61, joined Dec. 2012
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Of course, Share, Abraham, Mary, and all the departed saints have eternal life---in Heaven.
NO, they are dead until the Day of Judgment as all are.
“For David did not ascend into the heavens” (Acts 2:34); “Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre [tomb] is with us unto this day” (Acts 2:29).
The apostle Peter plainly stated that David did not ascend into the heavens yet. The Bible teaches that righteous people don’t receive their rewards at death but at the second coming of the Lord when dead will be raised. “For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then, He will reward each according to his works” (Matthew 16:27). And in Revelation it says, “Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be” (Revelation 22:12).
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| 1/8/2017 11:30:56 PM |
Mary is the new Ark of the Covenant. | Page 2 |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
64, joined Feb. 2008
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Nobody went to Heaven before Jesus came, except Enoch and Elijah. The good faithful followers of Yahweh went, when they died, to Limbo---not the Limbo of the Children, as we were discussing in the other thread, but Limbo of the Fathers, a place of natural happiness, but without seeing God. In the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, Jesus calls this place "the bosom of Abraham". When Jesus died, He went to this place ("He descended into Hell" says the Apostles Creed, not the firey Hell of the damned, but Limbo).
When Jesus ascended into Heaven He took these souls with Him.
Some of this is in the Bible, some not. The part that is not is covered by 2 Thessalonians 2:15.
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| 1/9/2017 6:30:45 PM |
Mary is the new Ark of the Covenant. | Page 2 |
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share_n_love
Fort Wayne, IN
61, joined Dec. 2012
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Nobody went to Heaven before Jesus came, except Enoch and Elijah. The good faithful followers of Yahweh went, when they died, to Limbo---not the Limbo of the Children, as we were discussing in the other thread, but Limbo of the Fathers, a place of natural happiness, but without seeing God. In the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, Jesus calls this place "the bosom of Abraham". When Jesus died, He went to this place ("He descended into Hell" says the Apostles Creed, not the firey Hell of the damned, but Limbo).
When Jesus ascended into Heaven He took these souls with Him.
Some of this is in the Bible, some not. The part that is not is covered by 2 Thessalonians 2:15.
NO, they are dead until the Day of Judgment as all are.
“For David did not ascend into the heavens” (Acts 2:34); “Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre [tomb] is with us unto this day” (Acts 2:29).
The apostle Peter plainly stated that David did not ascend into the heavens yet. The Bible teaches that righteous people don’t receive their rewards at death but at the second coming of the Lord when dead will be raised. “For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then, He will reward each according to his works” (Matthew 16:27). And in Revelation it says, “Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be” (Revelation 22:12).
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| 1/9/2017 7:04:10 PM |
Mary is the new Ark of the Covenant. | Page 2 |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
64, joined Feb. 2008
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Peter meant that David did not ascend into Heaven at the time of his (David's) death. When Jesus ascended into Heaven He took all the Old Testament saints into Heaven with Him.
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| 1/10/2017 3:43:40 AM |
Mary is the new Ark of the Covenant. | Page 2 |
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share_n_love
Fort Wayne, IN
61, joined Dec. 2012
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Peter meant that David did not ascend into Heaven at the time of his (David's) death. When Jesus ascended into Heaven He took all the Old Testament saints into Heaven with Him.
NO He did not....
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| 2/3/2017 8:51:27 AM |
Mary is the new Ark of the Covenant. | Page 2 |
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cupocheer
Assumption, IL
68, joined May. 2010
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| 2/3/2017 6:02:20 PM |
Mary is the new Ark of the Covenant. | Page 2 |
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followjesusonly
Kingman, AZ
74, joined May. 2012
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| 2/3/2017 7:03:47 PM |
Mary is the new Ark of the Covenant. | Page 2 |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
64, joined Feb. 2008
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What's so funny about Cup's beautiful picture of Jesus?
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| 2/3/2017 10:22:45 PM |
Mary is the new Ark of the Covenant. | Page 2 |
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followjesusonly
Kingman, AZ
74, joined May. 2012
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You just lied again with that question.
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| 2/3/2017 11:58:34 PM |
Mary is the new Ark of the Covenant. | Page 2 |
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cupocheer
Assumption, IL
68, joined May. 2010
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| 2/4/2017 1:19:53 AM |
Mary is the new Ark of the Covenant. | Page 2 |
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followjesusonly
Kingman, AZ
74, joined May. 2012
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On my screen your post is the last post above Calvin and Hobbes. I thought it was amusing the way you were giving lessons, just as if you know what you are talking about, to someone about what Peter meant.
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| 2/4/2017 3:40:02 AM |
Mary is the new Ark of the Covenant. | Page 2 |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
64, joined Feb. 2008
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I'm glad you clarified that. At least you are laughing at me and not Jesus.
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| 2/4/2017 9:21:23 AM |
Mary is the new Ark of the Covenant. | Page 2 |
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clarity101
Aurora, CO
66, joined Oct. 2008
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The Ark of the Covenant contained the stone tablets on which God wrote the ten commandments, the word of God. Mary, while Jesus was gestating, contained Jesus, the Word of God.
This is one of the many reasons we Catholics venerate Mary like we do. And devotion to Mary, far from taking away devotion to Jesus, enhances devotion to Jesus greatly.
Joel Osteen Sees Own Shadow, Predicts Another Year Of Taking Bible Out Of Context
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| 2/4/2017 9:44:05 AM |
Mary is the new Ark of the Covenant. | Page 2 |
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cupocheer
Assumption, IL
68, joined May. 2010
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| 2/4/2017 2:07:19 PM |
Mary is the new Ark of the Covenant. | Page 2 |
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followjesusonly
Kingman, AZ
74, joined May. 2012
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Welcome back, Clarity101
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| 2/4/2017 4:33:18 PM |
Mary is the new Ark of the Covenant. | Page 2 |
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clarity101
Aurora, CO
66, joined Oct. 2008
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Welcome back, Clarity101
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| 2/6/2017 1:31:57 PM |
Mary is the new Ark of the Covenant. | Page 2 |
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clarity101
Aurora, CO
66, joined Oct. 2008
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Italian priest faces defrocking for ‘organising orgies on church property’
Don Andrea Contin is accused of having 30 lovers and taking trips with them to a naturist swingers’ resort
Shehab Khan @shehabkhan Sunday 5 February 2017
An Italian priest faces defrocking after allegations were made that he organised orgies on church property.
Don Andrea Contin, a priest in Padua, Italy, was accused of always carrying a “briefcase full of vibrators, sex toys, masks and bondage equipment”.
He is also accused of having as many as 30 lovers and taking trips with them to a naturist swingers’ resort in France, despite taking a vow of celibacy.
The 48-year-old also allegedly concealed pornographic home videos in covers with the names of various popes.
He is accused of farming out some of his lovers to men on wife-swapping websites, according to The Times.
"He always carried a briefcase full of vibrators, sex toys, masks and bondage equipment," one of his accusers said in her police statement, according to the Corriere del Veneto.
She also accused Mr Contin of encouraging her to have sexual relations with a horse and beat her in the rectory on two occasions.
Claudio Cipolla, Padua’s bishop, said Mr Contin would lose his role regardless of the outcome of the investigation.
"I am incredulous and pained by the accusations," Mr Cipolla told a press conference, the Local reported.
"Even if, at the end of this affair, there are no legal consequences, we have a duty by canon law to take disciplinary action."
The investigations into Mr Contin began in December after three women came forward making complaints.
The priest initially denied the claims before confessing after police searched his house and discovered video evidence.
Another priest, Don Cavazzana, admitted to taking part in the parties and occasionally filming the events but is unlikely to face suspension.
Bishop Cipolla said the church did not yet have "sufficient elements" to reach a decision on his future, but that it was "a different case" because Mr Cavazzana's "involvement was only partial and occasional - though not acceptable for a priest".
One in 14 Catholic priests accused of abuse in Australia
AFP February 5, 2017
An inquiry in Australia finds that seven percent of Catholic priests were accused of abusing children from 1950-2010 but the Catholic church never investigated the claims Sydney (AFP) - Seven percent of Catholic priests were accused of abusing children in Australia between 1950 and 2010 but the allegations were never investigated, "shocking and indefensible" data showed Monday during an inquiry into paedophilia in the church.
The Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse heard that 4,444 alleged incidents of pedophilia were reported to church authorities and in some dioceses, more than 15 percent of priests were perpetrators.
Australia ordered the Royal Commission in 2012 after a decade of growing pressure to investigate allegations of child abuse across the country, with the inquiry now in its final phase after four years of hearings.
"Between 1950 and 2010, overall seven percent of priests were alleged perpetrators," said Gail Furness, the lawyer leading questioning at the inquiry in Sydney.
"The accounts were depressingly similar. Children were ignored or worse, punished. Allegations were not investigated. Priests and religious (figures) were moved," she added.
"The parishes or communities to which they were moved knew nothing of their past. Documents were not kept or they were destroyed. Secrecy prevailed as did cover ups."
The average age of the victims at the time was 10 for girls and 11 for boys.
Of the 1,880 alleged perpetrators, 90 percent were men.
The St John of God Brothers religious order was the worst, with just over 40 percent of members accused of abuse.
The commission has spoken to thousands of survivors and heard claims of child abuse involving churches, orphanages, sporting clubs, youth groups and schools.
The church in Australia set up the Truth, Justice and Healing Council to coordinate its response.
"These numbers are shocking, they are tragic, they are indefensible," its chief executive Francis Sullivan told the commission.
"This data, along with all we have heard over the past four years, can only be interpreted for what it is: a massive failure on the part of the Catholic Church in Australia to protect children from abusers.
"As Catholics we hang our heads in shame."
The inquiry has embroiled Australia's most senior Catholic cleric George Pell, now the Vatican's finance chief, who was questioned over his dealings with paedophile priests in Victoria state in the 1970s.
Pell was also accused of historic sex abuse claims when he was the Catholic Archbishop of Sydney in 2002, but was later cleared of any wrongdoing. He has denied all allegations.
Since being set up, the commission has made over 300 referrals to police but so far there have only been 27 prosecutions with 75 cases pending.
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| 2/6/2017 2:11:08 PM |
Mary is the new Ark of the Covenant. | Page 2 |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
64, joined Feb. 2008
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And I suppose all Protestant prwachers are as perfect as perfect can be. Did you ever hear of Jimmy Swaggert or Jim and Tammy Baker?
The Catholic religion is not tge true religion because every Catholic is perfect, or because every priest is perfect. The Catholic religion is the true religion because the Catholic religion was taught by Jesus Christ. All other religions, except Orthodox Judaism, are man-made and therefore false, and Judaism was meant as a preparatory religion only, to prepare the world for Christ.
Outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation.
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| 2/6/2017 2:22:16 PM |
Mary is the new Ark of the Covenant. | Page 2 |
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followjesusonly
Kingman, AZ
74, joined May. 2012
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And I suppose all Protestant prwachers are as perfect as perfect can be. Did you ever hear of Jimmy Swaggert or Jim and Tammy Baker?
There you go again, deflecting, saying, "Oh, don't look at us, look over there at them."
The Catholic religion is not tge true religion
You should stop right there.
because every Catholic is perfect, or because every priest is perfect. The Catholic religion is the true religion because the Catholic religion was taught by Jesus Christ.
No it wasn't.
All other religions, except Orthodox Judaism, are man-made and therefore false, and Judaism was meant as a preparatory religion only, to prepare the world for Christ.
Outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation.
Baseless, cathlick assertion. God would never sponsor a church full of homosexual, child molesting clergy, a church full of gold mongerers and people who disobey and defy God, and a church that tortured and murdered other believers over the centuries.
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| 2/6/2017 2:32:50 PM |
Mary is the new Ark of the Covenant. | Page 2 |
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clarity101
Aurora, CO
66, joined Oct. 2008
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Outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation.
"Should Catholic tradition have equal or greater authority than the Bible?"
Answer: Should church traditions be accepted as equally authoritative as Scripture? Or, should church traditions be followed only if they are in full agreement with Scripture? The answer to these questions plays a large role in determining what you believe and how you live as a Christian. It is our contention that Scripture alone is the only authoritative and infallible source for Christian doctrine and practice. Traditions are only valid if they are built on the firm foundation of Scripture and in full agreement with the entirety of Scripture. The following are seven biblical reasons supporting the teaching that the Bible should be accepted as the authority for faith and practice:
(1) It is Scripture that is said to be God-breathed (2 Timothy 3:16), and it is Scripture that has the repeated, “Thus saith the LORD...” In other words, it is the written Word that is repeatedly treated as God’s Word. Never is it said of any church tradition that it, too, is God-breathed and infallible.
(2) It is to Scripture that Jesus and the apostles appeal time after time in support or defense of their actions and teachings (Matthew 12:3, 5; 19:4; 22:31; Mark 12:10). There are over 60 verses in which you find “it is written...” used by Jesus and the apostles to support their teachings.
(3) It is to the Scriptures that the church is commended in order to combat the error that was bound to come (Acts 20:32). Likewise, it was the written Word that was seen in the Old Testament as the source of truth upon which to base one’s life (Joshua 1:8; Deuteronomy 17:18-19; Psalm 1; Psalm 19:7-11; 119; etc.). Jesus said that one of the reasons that the Sadducees were in error concerning the resurrection is that they did not know the Scriptures (Mark 12:24).
(4) Infallibility is never stated as the possession of those who would become church leaders in succession of the apostles. In both the Old and New Testaments, it is seen that duly appointed religious leaders could cause the people of God to err (1 Samuel 2:27-36; Matthew 15:14; 23:1-7; John 7:48; Acts 20:30; Galatians 2:11-16). Both Testaments exhort people to study the Scriptures to determine what is true and what is false (Psalm 19; 119; Isaiah 8:20; 2 Timothy 2:15; 3:16-17). While Jesus taught respect toward religious leaders (Matthew 23:3), an admonition which the apostles followed, we have the apostles’ example of breaking from the authority of their religious leaders when it was in opposition to what Jesus had commanded (Acts 4:19).
(5) Jesus equates the Scriptures with God’s Word (John 10:35). In contrast, when it comes to the religious traditions, He condemns some traditions because they contradict the written Word (Mark 7:1-13). Never does Jesus use religious tradition to support His actions or teachings. Before the writing of the New Testament, the Old Testament was the only inspired Scripture. However, there were literally hundreds of Jewish “traditions” recorded in the Talmud (a collection of commentary compiled by Jewish rabbis). Jesus and the apostles had both the Old Testament, and the Jewish tradition. Nowhere in Scripture does Jesus or any of the apostles appeal to the Jewish traditions. In contrast, Jesus and the apostles quote from or allude to the Old Testament hundreds of times. The Pharisees accused Jesus and the apostles of “breaking the traditions” (Matthew 15:2). Jesus responded with a rebuke: “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?” (Matthew 15:3). The manner in which Jesus and the apostles distinguished between the Scriptures and tradition is an example for the church. Jesus specifically rebukes treating the “commandments of men” as doctrines (Matthew 15:9).
(6) It is Scripture that has the promise that it will never fail, that it will all be fulfilled. Again, never is this promise given to the traditions of the church (Psalm 119:89,152; Isaiah 40:8; Matthew 5:18; Luke 21:33).
(7) It is the Scriptures that are the instrument of the Holy Spirit and His means for conquering Satan and changing lives (Hebrews 4:12; Ephesians 6:17).
"And that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work" (2 Timothy 3:15-17). "To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them" (Isaiah 8:20).
According to 2 Timothy 3:15-17, it is Scripture that is able to give one knowledge of salvation, it is God-breathed, and it is what we need to be thoroughly equipped for every good work. To be “thoroughly” equipped, means that it has all that we need. Scripture contains the information from God that is all we need for salvation and to live a life of good works. According to Isaiah 8:20, it is the “law and testimony” (terms used to refer to Scripture, see Psalm 119) that is the standard by which to measure truth.
"Then the brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea. When they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews. These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so" (Acts 17:10-11). Here the Jewish people of the town of Berea were commended for testing the teachings they were hearing from Paul by the Scriptures. They did not just accept Paul’s words as authoritative. They examined Paul’s words, compared them with Scripture, and found them to be true.
In Acts 20:27-32, Paul acknowledges publicly that “wolves” and false teachers would arise from “among yourselves” (within the church). What did he commend them to? To “God and the word of His grace.” He does not commend them to the “church leaders” (they were the church leaders) nor to the traditions of the church nor to a particular overseeing elder. Rather, Paul pointed them to the Word of God.
In summary, while there is no one verse that states that the Bible alone is our authority, the Bible over and over again gives the examples and the admonitions of turning to the written Word as one’s source of authority. When it comes to examining the origin of a prophet’s or religious leader’s teaching, it is Scripture that is appealed to as the standard.
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clarity101
Aurora, CO
66, joined Oct. 2008
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The Roman Catholic Church uses a number of biblical passages to support their use of tradition as of equal weight with Scripture. Here are the most commonly used of these passages, along with a brief explanation:
"Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle" (2 Thessalonians 2:15). "But we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw from every brother who walks disorderly and not according to the tradition which he received from us" (2 Thessalonians 3:6). These passages relate to the traditions the Thessalonians had received from Paul himself, whether oral or written. They do not relate to traditions handed down, but to teachings that they themselves had received either from the mouth of Paul or from his pen. Paul is not giving his blessing on all tradition, but, rather, only on the traditions he had passed on to the Thessalonians. This is in contrast to the traditions of the Roman Catholic Church, which have been handed down from the fourth century and later, not from the mouth or pen of one of the apostles.
"These things I write to you, though I hope to come to you shortly; but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth" (1 Timothy 3:14-15). The phrase "pillar and ground of the truth" does not indicate that the church is the creator of truth, or that it can originate tradition to supplement Scripture. The church being the “pillar and ground of the truth” simply means that the church is the proclaimer and defender of the truth. The New Testament praises churches for proclaiming the truth, "for from you the word of the Lord has been spread abroad" (1 Thessalonians 1:8). The New Testament commends early Christians for defending the truth, "partakers with me...in the defense and confirmation of the gospel" (Philippians 1:7). There is not a single verse in all of Scriptures which indicates that the church has the authority to develop new truth, or to decree new truth as being from the mouth of God.
"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you" (John 14:26). This was a promise given to the apostles alone. The Holy Spirit would help the apostles to remember everything that Jesus had said to them. Nowhere does this Scripture state that there would be an apostolic line of successors, and that the promise would also be for them.
"And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven" (Matthew 16:18-19). These verses are used by the Roman Catholic Church to support their teaching that Peter was the first pope, and that the church was built upon him. But when taken in context with what takes place in the Book of Acts, you find that Peter was the one who opened up the gospel to the world in the sense that it was he who first preached the gospel of Christ on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2). It was he who first preached the gospel to the Gentiles (Acts 10). So, the binding and loosing was done through the preaching of the gospel, not through any Roman Catholic tradition.
While it is clearly evident that Scripture argues for its own authority, Scripture nowhere argues for “authoritative tradition equal with Scripture.” In fact, the New Testament has more to say against traditions than it does in favor of tradition.
The Roman Catholic Church argues that Scripture was given to men by the Church and therefore the Church has equal or greater authority to it. However, even among the Roman Catholic Church’s writings (from the First Vatican Council), you will find the acknowledgment that the Church councils that determined which books were to be considered the Word of God did nothing but recognize what the Holy Spirit had already made evident. That is, the Church did not “give” Scriptures to men, but simply “recognized” what God, through the Holy Spirit, had already given. As A. A. Hodge states, when a peasant recognizes a prince and is able to call him by name, it does not give him the right to rule over the kingdom. In like fashion, a church council recognizing which books were God-breathed and possessed the traits of a God-inspired book, does not give the church council equal authority with those books.
In summary, even though the Bible does not contain the exact words “the written Word stands alone, apart from tradition, as our sole authority for faith and practice,” that principle is found throughout. The Old Testament writers, Jesus, and the apostles consistently turn to the Scriptures as their measuring stick and commend the same standard to all.
Recommended Resource: The Gospel According to Rome: Comparing Catholic Tradition and The Word of God by James McCarthy
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
64, joined Feb. 2008
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First came Jesus (cica 29 b.c.-29 a.d.). Then came the Church (circa 29 a.d.). Then, almost four centuries later (393 a.d.) the Catholic Church put the Bible together. First Christ, then the Church, then much later the Bible. A perspective to keep in mind.
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clarity101
Aurora, CO
66, joined Oct. 2008
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First came Jesus (cica 29 b.c.-29 a.d.). Then came the Church (circa 29 a.d.). Then, almost four centuries later (393 a.d.) the Catholic Church put the Bible together. First Christ, then the Church, then much later the Bible. A perspective to keep in mind.
The term “canon” is used to describe the books that are divinely inspired and therefore belong in the Bible. The difficulty in determining the biblical canon is that the Bible does not give us a list of the books that belong in the Bible. Determining the canon was a process conducted first by Jewish rabbis and scholars and later by early Christians. Ultimately, it was God who decided what books belonged in the biblical canon. A book of Scripture belonged in the canon from the moment God inspired its writing. It was simply a matter of God’s convincing His human followers which books should be included in the Bible.
Compared to the New Testament, there was much less controversy over the canon of the Old Testament. Hebrew believers recognized God’s messengers and accepted their writings as inspired of God. While there was undeniably some debate in regards to the Old Testament canon, by A.D. 250 there was nearly universal agreement on the canon of Hebrew Scripture. The only issue that remained was the Apocrypha, with some debate and discussion continuing today. The vast majority of Hebrew scholars considered the Apocrypha to be good historical and religious documents, but not on the same level as the Hebrew Scriptures.
For the New Testament, the process of the recognition and collection began in the first centuries of the Christian church. Very early on, some of the New Testament books were being recognized. Paul considered Luke’s writings to be as authoritative as the Old Testament (1 Timothy 5:18; see also Deuteronomy 25:4 and Luke 10:7). Peter recognized Paul’s writings as Scripture (2 Peter 3:15-16). Some of the books of the New Testament were being circulated among the churches (Colossians 4:16; 1 Thessalonians 5:27). Clement of Rome mentioned at least eight New Testament books (A.D. 95). Ignatius of Antioch acknowledged about seven books (A.D. 115). Polycarp, a disciple of John the apostle, acknowledged 15 books (A.D. 108). Later, Irenaeus mentioned 21 books (A.D. 185). Hippolytus recognized 22 books (A.D. 170-235). The New Testament books receiving the most controversy were Hebrews, James, 2 Peter, 2 John, and 3 John.
The first “canon” was the Muratorian Canon, which was compiled in AD 170. The Muratorian Canon included all of the New Testament books except Hebrews, James, and 3 John. In AD 363, the Council of Laodicea stated that only the Old Testament (along with one book of the Apocrypha) and 26 books of the New Testament (everything but Revelation) were canonical and to be read in the churches. The Council of Hippo (AD 393) and the Council of Carthage (AD 397) also affirmed the same 27 books as authoritative.
The councils followed something similar to the following principles to determine whether a New Testament book was truly inspired by the Holy Spirit: 1) Was the author an apostle or have a close connection with an apostle? 2) Is the book being accepted by the body of Christ at large? 3) Did the book contain consistency of doctrine and orthodox teaching? 4) Did the book bear evidence of high moral and spiritual values that would reflect a work of the Holy Spirit? Again, it is crucial to remember that the church did not determine the canon. No early church council decided on the canon. It was God, and God alone, who determined which books belonged in the Bible. It was simply a matter of God’s imparting to His followers what He had already decided. The human process of collecting the books of the Bible was flawed, but God, in His sovereignty, and despite our ignorance and stubbornness, brought the early church to the recognition of the books He had inspired.
Many Christians are surprised to learn that the Catholic Bible is different from the Bible used by Protestants. While all 66 books found in Protestant Bibles are also found in the Catholic Bible, the Catholic Bible also contains other books, and additions to books. The Catholic Bible contains a total of 73 books, 46 in the Old Testament (Protestant Bibles have 39) and 27 in the New Testament (the same as Protestant Bibles).
The additional books in the Catholic Bible are known as the deuterocanonicals/Apocrypha. They are Tobit, Judith, 1 Maccabees, 2 Maccabees, Wisdom, Sirach (Ecclesiasticus), and Baruch. The Catholic Bible also includes additions to the books of Esther and Daniel. Should the Apocrypha be included in the Bible? There was significant debate in the early Christian church, with a majority of the early church fathers rejecting the idea that the Apocrypha belonged in the Bible.
However, under tremendous pressure from Rome, Jerome, the translator of the Latin Vulgate, included the Apocrypha, despite Jerome’s insistence that the Apocrypha did not belong in the Bible. The Latin Vulgate became the dominant and officially sanctioned Catholic Bible, and remained that way for around 1200 years. Thus, the Apocrypha became a part of the Catholic Bible.
The Apocrypha was not formally/officially made a part of the Catholic Bible, though, until the Council of Trent, in response to the Protestant Reformation. The early Protestant Reformers, in agreement with Judaism, determined that the Apocrypha did not belong in the Bible, and therefore removed the Apocrypha from Protestant Bibles.
The most popular English translations of the Catholic Bible today are the New American Bible, the New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition, and the New Jerusalem Bible. Aside from the inclusion of the Apocrypha, each of these Bible translations is reasonably good and accurate in how it renders the biblical text into English.
In summary, the Catholic Bible is the version of the Bible promoted by the Roman Catholic Church and used by the majority of the world’s Catholics. Aside from the inclusion of the Apocrypha, the Catholic Bible is identical to Protestant Bibles in terms of the canon (the books belonging in the Bible).
Recommended Resource: The Canon of Scripture by F.F. Bruce
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
64, joined Feb. 2008
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Those councils (meetings of Catholic bishops) is where the New Testament canon came from. Historical sources will point to this or that council as the one who adopted the canon we use today, but I always point to the Council of Hippo, 393 a.d., because it was the first of the councils to come up with a definitive list.
Any way you cut the mustard it was the Catholic Church that decided which books would go into the Bible and which ones not. Did the Holy Spirit vuide the Church in this? Yes! That's the point---the Holy Spirit guides the Church!
To believe in the New Testament without believing in the Catholic Church would be like believing in the Boy Scout Handbook without believing in the Boy Scouts.
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followjesusonly
Kingman, AZ
74, joined May. 2012
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Outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation.
Self serving. Repeated lies. Doctrine of self serving men. Baseless. Contradicts Jesus.
...Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? (Luke 10:25)
"Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself." (Luke 10:27)
"Not every one who says to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." (Matthew 7:21)
"For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother." (Matthew 12:50)
The cathlick church is not mentioned in the scriptures.
[Edited 2/6/2017 4:03:42 PM ]
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followjesusonly
Kingman, AZ
74, joined May. 2012
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First came Jesus (cica 29 b.c.-29 a.d.). Then came the Church (circa 29 a.d.). Then, almost four centuries later (393 a.d.) the Catholic Church put the Bible together. First Christ, then the Church, then much later the Bible. A perspective to keep in mind.
The [Catholics] follow the principle that when one lies, one should lie big, and stick to it. They keep up their lies, even at the risk of looking ridiculous. -Joseph Goebbels
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
64, joined Feb. 2008
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How is any of what I said a lie, FJO? All I did was repeat historical facts.
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followjesusonly
Kingman, AZ
74, joined May. 2012
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The cathlick church did not start in 29 AD.
Jesus did not start the cathlick church.
Jesus did not appoint anyone "pope."
Luk 22:24 And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest.
Luk 22:25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
Luk 22:26 But ye shall not be so:
The word catholic is not in the bible.
The word pope is not in the bible.
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clarity101
Aurora, CO
66, joined Oct. 2008
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The cathlick church did not start in 29 AD.
Jesus did not start the cathlick church.
Jesus did not appoint anyone "pope."
Luk 22:24 And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest.
Luk 22:25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
Luk 22:26 But ye shall not be so:
The word catholic is not in the bible.
The word pope is not in the bible.
the catholic church is an abomination......
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mindya
Vancouver, BC
64, joined Jan. 2009
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The Roman Catholic church has gone off on a tangent with some of it's doctrines but to call them an abomination is going way beyond reasonable.
No church or denomination is without fault.
[Edited 2/6/2017 5:54:19 PM ]
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