Just how close are WE?

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iam_resurrected Reno, NV 46, joined Jul. 2014	Loop: but anyways, your running back to Daniel again. Did you read my post earlier? Did you see where Jesus spoke of the vision Daniel seen? Did you see how this all pertained to an army surrounding Jerusalem? If you are referring to chapter 11, it is specific to the Persian empire (antichrist) and Syria going to war with Egypt. ((antichrist)) and ((Tribulation)) 12: 7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished. 8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? 9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand. 11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Meet singles at DateHookup.dating, we're 100% free! Join now!
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cupocheer Assumption, IL 68, joined May. 2010	Iam, will you please stop talking to yourself. You're giving me a headache.
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iam_resurrected Reno, NV 46, joined Jul. 2014	John claims, to have written this when he was at Patmos in the Book of Revelation. Chronologically, Domitian puts John at Patmos after 81 AD. So it was "after" 81 AD, that John (whom claimed to be visited by Christ, His angels, before writing Revelation at Patmos), was visited by Christ and His angels before writing Revelation.
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cupocheer Assumption, IL 68, joined May. 2010	Very slowly... John was, apparently banished to exile on Patmos in his old age. (He died at about age 93, probably still on Patmos.) His "unveiling" was revealed to him, probably in his younger age perhaps he began his writing soon after Mary, mother of Jesus died and was no longer under his care. When he was on Patmos he apparently revised his earlier writings and that is what was published as the Book of Revelation.
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followjesusonly Kingman, AZ 74, joined May. 2012	Quote from iam_resurrected: John claims, to have written this when he was at Patmos in the Book of Revelation. Chronologically, Domitian puts John at Patmos after 81 AD. So it was "after" 81 AD, that John (whom claimed to be visited by Christ, His angels, before writing Revelation at Patmos), was visited by Christ and His angels before writing Revelation. 139:4.12 Several years after the martyrdom of James, John married his brother’s widow. The last twenty years of his life he was cared for by a loving granddaughter. 139:4.13 John was in prison several times and was banished to the Isle of Patmos for a period of four years until another emperor came to power in Rome. Had not John been tactful and sagacious, he would undoubtedly have been killed as was his more outspoken brother James. As the years passed, John, together with James the Lord’s brother, learned to practice wise conciliation when they appeared before the civil magistrates. They found that a “soft answer turns away wrath.” They also learned to represent the church as a “spiritual brotherhood devoted to the social service of mankind” rather than as “the kingdom of heaven.” They taught loving service rather than ruling power—kingdom and king. 139:4.14 When in temporary exile on Patmos, John wrote the Book of Revelation, which you now have in greatly abridged and distorted form. This Book of Revelation contains the surviving fragments of a great revelation, large portions of which were lost, other portions of which were removed, subsequent to John’s writing. It is preserved in only fragmentary and adulterated form. 139:4.15 John traveled much, labored incessantly, and after becoming bishop of the Asia churches, settled down at Ephesus. He directed his associate, Nathan, in the writing of the so-called “Gospel according to John,” at Ephesus, when he was ninety-nine years old. Of all the twelve apostles, John Zebedee eventually became the outstanding theologian. He died a natural death at Ephesus in A.D. 103 when he was one hundred and one years of age. -The Urantia Book
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iam_resurrected Reno, NV 46, joined Jul. 2014	Quote from cupocheer: Very slowly... John was, apparently banished to exile on Patmos in his old age. (He died at about age 93, probably still on Patmos.) His "unveiling" was revealed to him, probably in his younger age perhaps he began his writing soon after Mary, mother of Jesus died and was no longer under his care. When he was on Patmos he apparently revised his earlier writings and that is what was published as the Book of Revelation. Nice story. Not! John, would not write about something that took place 12-20 years prior and make it appear to be about the future. He wrote about the future.
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cupocheer Assumption, IL 68, joined May. 2010	Aren't we talking about REVELATION?
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bigd9832 Chicago, IL 64, joined Oct. 2007	Just how close are WE? Quote from looptex1: question bigd. In the verses you given, even the clv says "Ye now once, at the conclusion of the eons" But then Knoch says that this had not happen. Is he disagreeing with what the scriptures have said? The only verse you had quoted was... CLV Heb 9:26 since then He must often be suffering from the disruption of the world, yet now, once, at the conclusion of the eons, for the repudiation of sin through His sacrifice, is He manifest. Was there another one you wanted to address? I wouldn't say Mr. Knoch was disagreeing with Scripture. Just with your interpretation of it. But then, that would beg the question, how much time have you spent translating the Scriptures from Ancient Greek to English? But I am not sure where you see any disagreement. The "conclusion of the eons" has not happened yet. It is when all prophecies have been fulfilled. There is no "end of the world" in the Scriptures.
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looptex1 Chatsworth, GA 49, joined Jun. 2008	Quote from bigd9832: Just how close are WE? Quote from looptex1: question bigd. In the verses you given, even the clv says "Ye now once, at the conclusion of the eons" But then Knoch says that this had not happen. Is he disagreeing with what the scriptures have said? The only verse you had quoted was... CLV Heb 9:26 since then He must often be suffering from the disruption of the world, yet now, once, at the conclusion of the eons, for the repudiation of sin through His sacrifice, is He manifest. Was there another one you wanted to address? I wouldn't say Mr. Knoch was disagreeing with Scripture. Just with your interpretation of it. But then, that would beg the question, how much time have you spent translating the Scriptures from Ancient Greek to English? But I am not sure where you see any disagreement. The "conclusion of the eons" has not happened yet. It is when all prophecies have been fulfilled. There is no "end of the world" in the Scriptures. That was the verse I was speaking of. The reason it caught my attention was according the the clv, "he was offered up at the conclusion of the eons" Yet in his comments, he says it is evident that the conclusion had not yet come.
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bigd9832 Chicago, IL 64, joined Oct. 2007	Quote from looptex1: That was the verse I was speaking of. The reason it caught my attention was according the the clv, "he was offered up at the conclusion of the eons" Yet in his comments, he says it is evident that the conclusion had not yet come. The plural threw me. Sorry. The Scripture is saying this will happen at the "conclusion of the eons." But it is not defining when this conclusion will take place. So, I don't see a conflict. Elsewhere in the Scriptures, we are given clues as to when these eons will conclude. The KJV translates 'aion' as forever. But... _____Strong's_____ G165 aion ahee-ohn' from the same as G104; properly, an age; by extension, perpetuity (also past); by implication, the world; specially (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future). Compare G5550. Now I have one for you. We have talked about this before. You propose that the word "death" is figurative most of the time, even though there is no clue given to that effect. If so, did the Roman put Jesus to a figurative death? Did Jesus hang on a figurative cross? Was he buried in a figurative tomb? Did Paul mean Jesus died figuratively and then resurrect figuratively in 1Corinthians 15? CLV 1C 15:4 and that He was entombed, and that He has been roused the third day according to the scriptures, CLV 1C 15:13 Now if there is not resurrection of the dead, neither has Christ been roused. 14 Now if Christ has not been roused, for naught, consequently, is our heralding, and for naught is your faith. My question is really a simple one. How do you tell? How do you determine when a word (like "death," for example) is used literally or figuratively? What is your formula?
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looptex1 Chatsworth, GA 49, joined Jun. 2008	Quote from bigd9832: The plural threw me. Sorry. The Scripture is saying this will happen at the "conclusion of the eons." But it is not defining when this conclusion will take place. So, I don't see a conflict. Elsewhere in the Scriptures, we are given clues as to when these eons will conclude. The KJV translates 'aion' as forever. But... _____Strong's_____ G165 aion ahee-ohn' from the same as G104; properly, an age; by extension, perpetuity (also past); by implication, the world; specially (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future). Compare G5550. Now I have one for you. We have talked about this before. You propose that the word "death" is figurative most of the time, even though there is no clue given to that effect. If so, did the Roman put Jesus to a figurative death? Did Jesus hang on a figurative cross? Was he buried in a figurative tomb? Did Paul mean Jesus died figuratively and then resurrect figuratively in 1Corinthians 15? CLV 1C 15:4 and that He was entombed, and that He has been roused the third day according to the scriptures, CLV 1C 15:13 Now if there is not resurrection of the dead, neither has Christ been roused. 14 Now if Christ has not been roused, for naught, consequently, is our heralding, and for naught is your faith. My question is really a simple one. How do you tell? How do you determine when a word (like "death," for example) is used literally or figuratively? What is your formula? Does it is not say he suffered and was made manifest at the conclusion? I didn't back up and read it is why I'm asking. We know he has already suffered and I don't believe he will suffer again. And he was also manifest, not only in the flesh but also after his resurrection. As for death, granted, I do think many times death speaks or figuratively, but I admit that isn't always the case. Take jesus, yes he died literally, but he also died figuratively. In the cases where I've claimed a figurative sense, I spoke of a separation from God. Was Jesus not separated from God even if only momentarily? He did say, my God why hast thou forsaken me. I can't remember off hand, but one writer said, Jesus tasted death for every man. Was that literal death? If so, why does man till die? Yet, if the death he tasted for every man was figurative, then we can understand how that though his death, men who were without God, were reconciled unto God. I don't deny a literal death or resurrection, but I also believe that those who believe in him and liveth shall never die. Many people have believed, yet still died literally. So how can the words of jesus "shall never die" be true except they be speaking of the spiritual,
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a_nubian Columbus, OH 53, joined Jan. 2011	Loop Nubian, how am I pulling out of context? No Context is needed to see what was said. He asked a question, and then he gave an answer And to say it had not already been accomplished, is changing what Paul said. If it had only gone out, why did Paul say, YES, THEY HAVE HEARD, their sound went unto all the earth and their words unto the end of the world. Let's let scripture say what it says and not change it for our own interpretation. And then of course his statement in Colossians is just as plain. Salvation Is For All (Romans 10:5-13) Some in Israel Rejects the Gospel Romans 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. (KJV) But not all have obeyed the good news (NRSV) But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. (NIV) Verse 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.(KJV) Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ. (NIV) Verse 18 But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did (NIV) But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed: (NKJV) Loop They is referring to those Jews that accepted the Gospel of Jesus Christ. How do we know this? “Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world.” (NIV) Pentecost Acts 2 5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. 9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, 10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God. Loop once again "they' is referring to those Jews who accepted the gospel; 41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized:" (KJV) 47 "And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved". (KJV) SUMMATION Out of Context Loop Preterist view verse 18 as the whole world heard [past tense] the gospel. What would be the point for Paul to address the Jews if the whole world had already heard it and then give a commission to spread the gospel? Pentecost confirmed to the Jews that Jesus was the Christ/Messiah; confirmed by tthe outpouring of the Holy Spirit via everyone understanding the Gospel in their own language. As a result some accepted the Gospel and others Rejected it. That's why we have Romans 10.
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cupocheer Assumption, IL 68, joined May. 2010	Acts is very informative.
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looptex1 Chatsworth, GA 49, joined Jun. 2008	Quote from a_nubian: Loop Nubian, how am I pulling out of context? No Context is needed to see what was said. He asked a question, and then he gave an answer And to say it had not already been accomplished, is changing what Paul said. If it had only gone out, why did Paul say, YES, THEY HAVE HEARD, their sound went unto all the earth and their words unto the end of the world. Let's let scripture say what it says and not change it for our own interpretation. And then of course his statement in Colossians is just as plain. Salvation Is For All (Romans 10:5-13) Some in Israel Rejects the Gospel Romans 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. (KJV) But not all have obeyed the good news (NRSV) But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. (NIV) Verse 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.(KJV) Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ. (NIV) Verse 18 But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did (NIV) But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed: (NKJV) Loop They is referring to those Jews that accepted the Gospel of Jesus Christ. How do we know this? “Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world.” (NIV) Pentecost Acts 2 5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. 9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, 10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God. Loop once again "they' is referring to those Jews who accepted the gospel; 41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized:" (KJV) 47 "And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved". (KJV) SUMMATION Out of Context Loop Preterist view verse 18 as the whole world heard [past tense] the gospel. What would be the point for Paul to address the Jews if the whole world had already heard it and then give a commission to spread the gospel? Pentecost confirmed to the Jews that Jesus was the Christ/Messiah; confirmed by tthe outpouring of the Holy Spirit via everyone understanding the Gospel in their own language. As a result some accepted the Gospel and others Rejected it. That's why we have Romans 10. So I suppose paul here was also speaking of the jews who had excepted christ and not every creature. Col. 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; You not yet addressed these words. Nor have you addressed my response to the verse you claim we ignore.
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cupocheer Assumption, IL 68, joined May. 2010	Accept Accepted to approve of
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ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 64, joined Feb. 2008	"My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me" should be thought of as Jesus' very human emotional response. It should not be interpreted as the Father really abandoning Jesus, or Jesus ceasing to be God in His own right briefly. Some say Jesus became sin while on the cross and since God can have nothing to do with sin, God temporarily abandoned Jesus. This is an error---while Jesus symbolized sin while He hung on the cross, He certainly didn't literally become sin. But whatever one's take on all this, meditating on Jesus' suffering and death is aways a good thing. It should inspire us with love and gratitude and should excite sorrow for our sins.
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iam_resurrected Reno, NV 46, joined Jul. 2014	23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; 23 since surely you are persisting in the faith, grounded and settled and are not being removed from the expectation of the evangel which you hear which is being heralded in the entire creation which is under heaven of which I, Paul, became the dispenser." I have researched and find "nowhere" that native (not yet American native) Indians ever were introduced to Christ, until the settles in possible 16th and 17th centuries. So, how did Paul claim to preach all the way across the Atlantic? He did not. He only preached to "their" known world and not beyond it. My question: Was Christ speaking of the world Paul and the disciples knew, OR, was Christ speaking about the entire world including outside Paul's and the disciples dwelling? At this point, all we understand is Paul preached in Greece, Rome, Mesopotamia, Israel, Muslim nations. We never find where he goes to France, UK, Russia, Ireland, the America's, etc. It would be illogic to accept that Paul preached to the native America Indians when he did not. So factually, Paul did not go to the ends of the earth. *That did not happen until recently*.
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looptex1 Chatsworth, GA 49, joined Jun. 2008	Quote from cupocheer: Accept Accepted to approve of ???????????
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cupocheer Assumption, IL 68, joined May. 2010	Was Jesus calling out to the Heavenly Father or was he admonishing the peoples? My God! Can you be for real!?! Because in the next breath Jesus says "Forgive them Father. They know not what they do." Jesus didn't lose faith in God. He was confused at the response of those whom had followed him, heard him, and loved him. I love you Jesus, would that I could have replaced you on your cross. Amen.
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looptex1 Chatsworth, GA 49, joined Jun. 2008	Quote from iam_resurrected: 23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; 23 since surely you are persisting in the faith, grounded and settled and are not being removed from the expectation of the evangel which you hear which is being heralded in the entire creation which is under heaven of which I, Paul, became the dispenser." I have researched and find "nowhere" that native (not yet American native) Indians ever were introduced to Christ, until the settles in possible 16th and 17th centuries. So, how did Paul claim to preach all the way across the Atlantic? He did not. He only preached to "their" known world and not beyond it. My question: Was Christ speaking of the world Paul and the disciples knew, OR, was Christ speaking about the entire world including outside Paul's and the disciples dwelling? At this point, all we understand is Paul preached in Greece, Rome, Mesopotamia, Israel, Muslim nations. We never find where he goes to France, UK, Russia, Ireland, the America's, etc. It would be illogic to accept that Paul preached to the native America Indians when he did not. So factually, Paul did not go to the ends of the earth. *That did not happen until recently*. now, your almost there. No, paul did not preach to "native American" Nor did jesus speak to native American Nor did jesus warn native American Everything said, was said to the "world" that was then That's precisely why Jesus warned them Told them they would be persecuted Told them they would be killed Told them what to look for Told them in judea to flee to the mountains. That's pretty specific right there isn't it? Ye in judea, flee to the mountians, ye on the roof top, don't come down to get anything, ye in the field, don't return to get anything. If he was speaking to the "world" as in future countries and people, like the American indians, what is their sign? What should they look for? Where should they flee? Everything written, was time specific, place specific and people specific
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looptex1 Chatsworth, GA 49, joined Jun. 2008	Iam, do you even realize you don't really believe what you say? Answer this question. Do you belief Christ could come back at any day? Are you looking for him, warning people to be ready, for at any moment he could return? If your answer is yes, I'm gonna ask how can this be? You don't believe the word has been preached to the whole world. Is that not what the scriptures said must happen first? That this gospel be preached unto the whole world? Then how can he return at any time, without that has been accomplished. He can't According to your belief, He can return at anytime, yet you claim what has to be accomplished before his return hasn't been accomplished. Which is it? There was a child born just a few mins ago, I guess that will delay his coming until that child hears the gospel There are people in other countries who have not heard the gospel, I guess that also will delay his coming until they also hear the gospel. See, your own belief contradicts your own belief.
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cupocheer Assumption, IL 68, joined May. 2010	Iam... when those people's crossed the Bering Straits,..oh so many millennia ago, where did they originate from? Sweety, America's Native Americans carried 'the word' within them when they migrated. They were far from ignorant and non-religious. Better do your homework if you intend to go here, dear.
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iam_resurrected Reno, NV 46, joined Jul. 2014	Why would I not believe what I post? Christ sent his disciples to preach and use "his name" to the known world before he went on to be crucified. Let's pretend this was 30 days. Could a disciple hop in a boat, and paddle to the America's, preach Jesus, and return before Christ went to Jerusalem in 30 days? They would not had been able to do it in 6 months back then. Remember, when they returned, this is where Peter says to Jesus, He is the Christ. So clearly, when Jesus was on earth his gospel did not reach the America's. And "nowhere" is it written where the disciples, Paul, or any believer went to the America's and preached. It is written, they went where they were familiar with.
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cupocheer Assumption, IL 68, joined May. 2010	You forget the wonders of God that humans can't even perceive, my friend.
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looptex1 Chatsworth, GA 49, joined Jun. 2008	Quote from iam_resurrected: Why would I not believe what I post? Christ sent his disciples to preach and use "his name" to the known world before he went on to be crucified. Let's pretend this was 30 days. Could a disciple hop in a boat, and paddle to the America's, preach Jesus, and return before Christ went to Jerusalem in 30 days? They would not had been able to do it in 6 months back then. Remember, when they returned, this is where Peter says to Jesus, He is the Christ. So clearly, when Jesus was on earth his gospel did not reach the America's. And "nowhere" is it written where the disciples, Paul, or any believer went to the America's and preached. It is written, they went where they were familiar with. well answer the question then. Do you believe christ could come back tomorrow? Simple yes or no
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iam_resurrected Reno, NV 46, joined Jul. 2014	I believe, He could return in my very next breathe that I inhale, and before I exhale.
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bigd9832 Chicago, IL 64, joined Oct. 2007	Quote from looptex1: Does it is not say he suffered and was made manifest at the conclusion? I don't recall that quote. Can you provide a book, chapter, and verse for that one? Quote from looptex1: We know he has already suffered and I don't believe he will suffer again. And he was also manifest, not only in the flesh but also after his resurrection. Yes, He has suffered. For all mankind. Will He suffer more? He will return in power. Just read Revelation. But I am not sure what you mean here. Isn't manifest the same as Him in the physical after the Resurrection? Quote from looptex1: As for death, granted, I do think many times death speaks or figuratively, but I admit that isn't always the case. Take jesus, yes he died literally, but he also died figuratively. This makes no sense. What do you think this figurative death is? Being dead to God. How can Jesus be dead to God is He is God? Quote from looptex1: In the cases where I've claimed a figurative sense, I spoke of a separation from God. Was Jesus not separated from God even if only momentarily? He did say, my God why hast thou forsaken me. CLV Ps 139:8 If I should climb to the heavens, You are there, And should I make my berth in the unseen, behold, You are there. 9 Should I wear the wings of dawn, Should I tabernacle in the hindmost sea, 10 Even there Your hand would guide me, And Your right hand, it would hold me. 11 If I said, Surely darkness, it snuffed me up, And night is belted about me, 12 Even darkness, it is not darkening to You, And the night, as the day, is giving light; Darkness is as light. 13 For You Yourself achieved the making of my innermost being; You overshadowed me in my mother's belly. It seems the Scripture says there is no "separating" from God. Yes, Jesus said, "Why have you forsaken me." But did God forsaken Him? I don't think He did. That was Jesus being human. Quote from looptex1: I can't remember off hand, but one writer said, Jesus tasted death for every man. Was that literal death? If so, why does man till die? Yet, if the death he tasted for every man was figurative, then we can understand how that though his death, men who were without God, were reconciled unto God. He will eliminate death (that is, real, physical death) for all mankind when He returns. CLV Jn 11:21 Martha, then, said to Jesus, "Lord, if Thou wert here, my brother would not have died. 22 But even now I am aware that whatsoever Thou shouldst be requesting of God, God will be giving to Thee." 23 Jesus is saying to her, "Your brother will be rising." 24 Martha is saying to Him, "I am aware that he will be rising in the resurrection in the last day." 25 Jesus said to her, "I am the Resurrection and the Life. He who is believing in Me, even if he should be dying, shall be living. 26 And everyone who is living and believing in Me, should by no means be dying for the eon. Are you believing this?" The Jews/Israel were taught that there will be a very real and physical Resurrection. Martha's brother died physically, not figuratively. Death will be eliminated right after the Resurrection. The resurrection didn't happen in 70 AD. CLV 1C 15:22 For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Paul speaks about this as a future event, not a past one. There are many examples of this. You might see them if you studied Ancient Koine Greek. CLV 1C 15:28 Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all. According to Scripture, the Resurrection has not happened yet, during Paul's time. I tell you now, the Resurrection has not happened yet. If it had, we would have a record of an event that everyone in the world would have see back then. And Jesus would still be here, today, now.
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looptex1 Chatsworth, GA 49, joined Jun. 2008	Quote from iam_resurrected: I believe, He could return in my very next breathe that I inhale, and before I exhale. How can you believe that, without 1st believing the spreading of the gospel has been accomplished? Matt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. The gospel is preached unto all the world before the end comes. You have have him come G at anytime, and still claim the gospel didn't go out as paul said, to all the world.
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iam_resurrected Reno, NV 46, joined Jul. 2014	I believe what I do, due to the fact, atheist and the ill informed, can log on and read and discover all about this Jesus. Missionaries only need to go to remote locations, that have no access to power, and other sources, to provide internet access. The internet is reaching more ill informed people daily, about Jesus, than people who live for Christ can witness to. [Edited 4/6/2017 2:31:24 PM ]
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looptex1 Chatsworth, GA 49, joined Jun. 2008	Bigd, this is the verse I was speaking of. CLV Heb 9:26 since then He must often be suffering from the disruption of the world, yet now, once, at the conclusion of the eons, for the repudiation of sin through His sacrifice, is He manifest. Even here, using the clv, yet once, at the conclusion of the eon, through his sacrifice, is He manifest. I left out a couple words, but the point stayed the same. But knoch, in his commentary, said the conclusion had not happened. The scriptures, they say different.
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a_nubian Columbus, OH 53, joined Jan. 2011	Quote from looptex1: So I suppose paul here was also speaking of the jews who had excepted christ and not every creature. Col. 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; You not yet addressed these words. Nor have you addressed my response to the verse you claim we ignore. Col 1:23 is taken out of context by preterist. If the gospel had been preached to all the world then why would Paul say, "whereof I Paul am made a minister". Paul Addresses His Sacrifice & Church Ministry Col 1:24 I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church, (NKJV) Col 1:25 "of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God which was given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God," Loop Verse 25 states to fulfill the word of God. Who is that word going to? vs 27"To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory." (NKJV) Why to the Gentiles? vs 28 "Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus. NOW FULL CIRCLE Jesus said,"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world* for a witness unto all nations; and* then shall the end come. (KJV)
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iam_resurrected Reno, NV 46, joined Jul. 2014	Hebrews 9: 24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. This appears to be rather clear, that Christ was sacrificed ONCE, and that is more than enough, compared to priests, going into the temple for animal sacrifice daily and yearly. The term here eon, represents, that Christ's one time sacrifice, is good enough forever unlike animal sacrifice. [Edited 4/6/2017 2:47:23 PM ]
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cupocheer Assumption, IL 68, joined May. 2010	Jesus is here. All one has to do is open their eyes and acknowledge him.
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looptex1 Chatsworth, GA 49, joined Jun. 2008	Quote from iam_resurrected: I believe what I do, due to the fact, atheist and the ill informed, can log on and read and discover all about this Jesus. Missionaries only need to go to remote locations, that have no access to power, and other sources, to provide internet access. The internet is reaching more ill informed people daily, about Jesus, than people who live for Christ can witness to. But your in error. Yes, there is many ways one can hear the gospel, but the number of ways, the availability, the easy access, of the gospel wasn't what was said to happen before he come. What was said was the gospel would be preached unto the ends of the world, and then shall come the end. If the gospel hasn't been preached to the ends of the world, christ cannot come. See the dilemma? You claiming it hasn't been accomplished, causes your belief that he could come right now to be in error. Or Your believing he could come right now, causes your belief that the gospel hasn't been preached unto the end of the world to be in error. There's no two ways about. His return, is dependant upon the gospel being preach unto the end of the world. It can't happen, until that has been accomplished I choose to believe what the scriptures have said. Have they not heard? Yes they heard, their voice went unto the ends of the world Col. 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; now I went back and read nubian response. hey nubian, does ALL mean ALL? How about EVERY? Does EVERY mean EVERY? In your attempt to explain context, you fail. I suppose that you will also say that, John 3:16 for God so loved the world, that whom he was speaking to changes whom the word "world" refers to. that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever, I also guess that "whosoever" doesn't mean whosoever, but that we should realize to whom he was speaking to to determine who "whosoever" is. Let me explain "every creature under the sun" You do know where the sun is? Right? Well it sits way out yonder in space and shines upon the whole earth. There has never been a point that it shined only on jews, or upon gentiles, it has always and always will shine upon the whole earth, where mankind, the creature dwells. that's a pretty good verse though isn't it. be not moved away from the gospel which YOU HAVE HEARD, and which WAS PREACHED TO EVERY Creature under the sun. He didn't leave anyone out
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looptex1 Chatsworth, GA 49, joined Jun. 2008	Quote from iam_resurrected: Hebrews 9: 24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. This appears to be rather clear, that Christ was sacrificed ONCE, and that is more than enough, compared to priests, going into the temple for animal sacrifice daily and yearly. The term here eon, represents, that Christ's one time sacrifice, is good enough forever unlike animal sacrifice. well, at least I've never heard that one before. So let out this into context of how your claiming this verse could read. For the he must often have suffered from the foundation of the world, but now once in the end of the eon hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. Now, 1st thing you need to know is that eon has nothing to do with sacrifice. Eon is a period of time, So he appeared at the end of "some" time, why, to out away sin, how? By the sacrifice of himself
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a_nubian Columbus, OH 53, joined Jan. 2011	Loop Nor have you addressed my response to the verse you claim we ignore. The part Preterist ignore is, "and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?" The prophesy for the destruction of Jerusalem was fulfilled as prophesied in Daniel. Why? They (Jews) rejected Jesus as the Christ. They knew the gospel with regard to His First Advent. Thus fulfilling Daniel's Prophecy. The Gospel was then given to the Gentiles. To proclaim His Second Advent; this Prophesy has not been Fulfilled. Why? Because, this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
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looptex1 Chatsworth, GA 49, joined Jun. 2008	Quote from a_nubian: Col 1:23 is taken out of context by preterist. If the gospel had been preached to all the world then why would Paul say, "whereof I Paul am made a minister". Paul Addresses His Sacrifice & Church Ministry Col 1:24 I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church, (NKJV) Col 1:25 "of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God which was given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God," Loop Verse 25 states to fulfill the word of God. Who is that word going to? vs 27"To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory." (NKJV) Why to the Gentiles? vs 28 "Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus. NOW FULL CIRCLE Jesus said,"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world* for a witness unto all nations; and* then shall the end come. (KJV) not one thing you posted changes what he said. It doesn't matter if he went on to talk about moses and the red sea or Jonah and the belly of a whale, his words still have the same meaning. By the way, 25, yes it does say to fulfill the word of the lord. What did the word of the lord say? This gospel shall be preached unto the ends of the world. Surely you don't think this was the first time they had heard preaching? And he was just now getting to that part of the word? Hmmm, I Wonder, what was it he told them to do? Continue in the faith, grounded , settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel which ye have heard. He was speaking to those who had already heard, already believed.
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looptex1 Chatsworth, GA 49, joined Jun. 2008	Quote from a_nubian: Loop Nor have you addressed my response to the verse you claim we ignore. The part Preterist ignore is, "and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?" The prophesy for the destruction of Jerusalem was fulfilled as prophesied in Daniel. Why? They (Jews) rejected Jesus as the Christ. They knew the gospel with regard to His First Advent. Thus fulfilling Daniel's Prophecy. The Gospel was then given to the Gentiles. To proclaim His Second Advent; this Prophesy has not been Fulfilled. Why? Because, this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. How many ends are there going to be? One the jews proclaim, one the gentiles proclaim. Next we will have the Catholics, sda, baptist, heck, we can all proclaim our own end. Sadly, your mistaken, everything Jesus spoke of, including the end, was spoken of by the prophets. The Gentiles don't have a different end than the jews.
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a_nubian Columbus, OH 53, joined Jan. 2011	Quote from looptex1: How many ends are there going to be? One the jews proclaim, one the gentiles proclaim. Next we will have the Catholics, sda, baptist, heck, we can all proclaim our own end. Sadly, your mistaken, everything Jesus spoke of, including the end, was spoken of by the prophets. The Gentiles don't have a different end than the jews. How many Ends? Only One. First Coming of Jesus; Sent for Man's Redemption. (Fulfilled) Second Coming of Jesus: To Gather and take home the Redeemed. (Not Fulfilled) God Created Perfection and by default all His Creations were holy including Adam and Eve. No sickness, death, separation from God; Until sin entered the world through Adam and Eve. God will restore that Created Perfection for those who are holy, "Be ye holy; for I am holy." There will be no more sickness, nor death, forever in His Presence, for the former things will pass way. As sincere as some preterist are, to promote the idea that all has been fulfilled on 70 AD, negates the promises of God ending the curse of sin. Loop, what preterism has concluding is that this Earth will forever exist in perpetual sin and wickedness; consequently eternal suffering. Loop that's not going to happen.
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iam_resurrected Reno, NV 46, joined Jul. 2014	LOOP: If the gospel hasn't been preached to the ends of the world, christ cannot come. See the dilemma? You claiming it hasn't been accomplished, causes your belief that he could come right now to be in error. Or Your believing he could come right now, causes your belief that the gospel hasn't been preached unto the end of the world to be in error. There's no two ways about. I believe in the perfect "Two Week" Theory (my own created process of timeline according to the bible): my process includes: I believe from Adam until now, gives an Idea, of what was before Adam. Using the "one day" = "one thousand years", vice versa scriptures. 1. Therefore, I believe each day of the "creation of Adam (Lineage to Christ)", represents 1,000 years per day, completing "one" perfect "week" of 7,000 years (7) days. 2. From Adam to Christ, was 4,000 years, representing four(4) days. 3. From Christ to His "second coming", will be 2,000 years, representing two(2) days. 4. The period of New Jerusalem, gathering of the Bride and reign, Satan booted forever from heaven and cast into a pit, all represent 1,000 years, or one day. With my timeline, that I am, confirmed by belief, is backed by scripture. I feel this is revealing we are closing in on that point to which all will have finally been told about the "Gospel". Cup knows: I am involved in several threads in DH outside this forum. I have been discussing God to a platform of atheist and non believers. Did you know, we are in the year 2017? And, there are human beings who have never really heard about Jesus? These are adults, whose parents, were socialites, atheists, and elitists that had nothing to do with believing or discussing Christ. They even keep their children protected from Christ. Now, let me convey that I understand, there is a big difference between someone saying things pertaining to Christ and actually explaining, the Gospel and its meanings. I feel Christ wanted the Gospel explained, not just say to others, you need Jesus or you are going to die eternally from God. [Edited 4/6/2017 4:27:00 PM ]
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bigd9832 Chicago, IL 64, joined Oct. 2007	CLV Hb 9:26 since then He must often be suffering from the disruption of the world, yet now, once, at the conclusion of the eons, for the repudiation of sin through His sacrifice, is He manifest. Quote from looptex1: But knoch, in his commentary, said the conclusion had not happened. The scriptures, they say different. It really doesn't say the conclusion of the eons has already happened. "at the conclusion of the eons" means when we get to the conclusion of the eons. There are still two more eons to come. And we haven't finished this one. CLV Ga 1:4 Who gives Himself for our sins, so that He might extricate us out of the present wicked eon, according to the will of our God and Father, This shows that Paul knew we were not at the "conclusion of the eons." He called this eon present and wicked. And still two full eons to go. Oh, wait. I think I see. You think the word "now" means in the present. Right? I keep forgetting that you haven't taken Ancient Greek. The "now" is part of the explanation he is giving. It's like saying in English, "Now that you understand that part, I will teach you the next part." In the Scriptures, understanding is built up. CLV Isa 28:10 For instruction is added to instruction, instruction to instruction, expectation to expectation, expectation to expectation, a bit there, a bit there. CLV Isa 28:13 when the word of Yahweh Elohim comes to them. Instruction is added to instruction, instruction to instruction, expectation to expectation, expectation to expectation, a bit there, a bit there, that they may go and stumble back, and be broken, and be trapped, and be seized. Has a teacher ever said to you, " Do you understand this part? Because if you don't understand what I just showed you, you will not get the next part."? Try this. 1. He wore a red shirt. 2. His vest was green. 3. And his coat was plaid blue and yellow. Not one of those things made him look like a clown. But all of them together did. These books were written thousands of years ago. 1000 years before there was English (Anglo-Saxon actually). The didn't speak or write like we do. Is that more clear now?
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a_nubian Columbus, OH 53, joined Jan. 2011	Quote from looptex1: not one thing you posted changes what he said. It doesn't matter if he went on to talk about moses and the red sea or Jonah and the belly of a whale, his words still have the same meaning. By the way, 25, yes it does say to fulfill the word of the lord. What did the word of the lord say? This gospel shall be preached unto the ends of the world. Surely you don't think this was the first time they had heard preaching? And he was just now getting to that part of the word? Hmmm, I Wonder, what was it he told them to do? Continue in the faith, grounded , settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel which ye have heard. He was speaking to those who had already heard, already believed. First time they heard preaching? Is it safe to assume via scripture, that not all Jews during Christ time accepted Him as the Messiah out of ignorance and it took Paul as well as Peter to help them see that? Loop? Continue in the faith...settled grounded hope in the gospel... to fulfill the word of God,...to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles It's clear what the commission of the church is.
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bigd9832 Chicago, IL 64, joined Oct. 2007	Quote from looptex1: How many ends are there going to be? One the jews proclaim, one the gentiles proclaim. Next we will have the Catholics, sda, baptist, heck, we can all proclaim our own end. Sadly, your mistaken, everything Jesus spoke of, including the end, was spoken of by the prophets. There are 5 eons (ages). Each one has an ending. We are coming to the end of the third eon (age). The next eon is called the Day of the Lord, or the Lord's Day. It has a beginning and an ending. That 5th and last eon is called God's Day. It too has a beginning and an ending. http://concordant.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Eonian-Times-Chart-DivineCalendar.jpg The English word "world" used to mean "age." That was changed about 100 years ago. But it has not been changed in the KJV. See... Forever? It Makes No Sense https://DateHookup.dating/Thread-1417259.htm Quote from looptex1: The Gentiles don't have a different end than the jews. But they do have different jobs and different positions. That will become more apparent when we enter the Millennium.
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looptex1 Chatsworth, GA 49, joined Jun. 2008	Quote from bigd9832: CLV Hb 9:26 since then He must often be suffering from the disruption of the world, yet now, once, at the conclusion of the eons, for the repudiation of sin through His sacrifice, is He manifest. It isn't the word "now" that I'm looking at. It is "once, at the conclusion" which would or could also be translated "Once, at the end" Of the eons, was he offered up. He wasn't offered up at the time paul was speaking these things, he was offered up before paul spoke these things. Paul wasn't saying here that "he would be offered up at the conclusion," but, that "he was offered up"
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bigd9832 Chicago, IL 64, joined Oct. 2007	Jesus was offered up at the conclusion of the second eon. That would be two eons so it is represented as a plural. The conclusion of ALL the eons (that is, all 5 eons) is called the Consummation. _____Strong's_____ G5056 telos tel'-os from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal); properly, the point aimed at as a limit, i.e. (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination (literally, figuratively or indefinitely), result (immediate, ultimate or prophetic), purpose); specially, an impost or levy (as paid). Compare G5411. The word 'telos' is used 41 times in the NT. "Conclusion" is represented from 'sunteleia' and is used 6 times. _____Strong's_____ G4930 sunteleia soon-tel'-i-ah from G4931; entire completion, i.e. consummation (of a dispensation). It is 'sunteleia' that is used in Hebrew 9:26, not 'tello.' How does the KJV distinguish these two words? For 'sunteleia' the KJV uses it as part of the phrase "end of the world." But they seem to be confused over what the word "world" is. "World" is usually 'kosmos.' But in this case, "world" is from 'aion.' The word "world" used to mean "age" about 100 years ago. That has been changed. It is an obsolete definition. Obsolete in that it is no longer used. However, the word "world" has not been changed in the KJV. It has not been updated History of the word "world" The original meaning of world, which goes back to Old English weorold, was “lifetime,” which makes sense in view of the word's makeup: it was a compound of Old English wer, “man,” and an element -old that meant “age” or “period of time” and is related to modern English old. Already in Old English, though, the word had extended meanings, such as “human life in general,” or “the earth and everything living on it.” These are some of its most common meanings today. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/world We, humans, do like to make things complicated, don't we? So there is no "end of the world" in the Scriptures. In the case of 'tello' the KJV again uses the word "end" to represent this Ancient Greek term. So the KJV makes no distinction. I hope this answers your questions. I would like to get back to this word "death." I am still not clear on how you distinguish using the figurative from the literal. What are the qualifications and/or the formula that determine if a word like "death" is literal or figurative? How do you decide?
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looptex1 Chatsworth, GA 49, joined Jun. 2008	Quote from bigd9832: Jesus was offered up at the conclusion of the second eon. That would be two eons so it is represented as a plural. The conclusion of ALL the eons (that is, all 5 eons) is called the Consummation. _____Strong's_____ G5056 telos tel'-os from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal); properly, the point aimed at as a limit, i.e. (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination (literally, figuratively or indefinitely), result (immediate, ultimate or prophetic), purpose); specially, an impost or levy (as paid). Compare G5411. The word 'telos' is used 41 times in the NT. "Conclusion" is represented from 'sunteleia' and is used 6 times. _____Strong's_____ G4930 sunteleia soon-tel'-i-ah from G4931; entire completion, i.e. consummation (of a dispensation). It is 'sunteleia' that is used in Hebrew 9:26, not 'tello.' How does the KJV distinguish these two words? For 'sunteleia' the KJV uses it as part of the phrase "end of the world." But they seem to be confused over what the word "world" is. "World" is usually 'kosmos.' But in this case, "world" is from 'aion.' The word "world" used to mean "age" about 100 years ago. That has been changed. It is an obsolete definition. Obsolete in that it is no longer used. However, the word "world" has not been changed in the KJV. It has not been updated History of the word "world" The original meaning of world, which goes back to Old English weorold, was “lifetime,” which makes sense in view of the word's makeup: it was a compound of Old English wer, “man,” and an element -old that meant “age” or “period of time” and is related to modern English old. Already in Old English, though, the word had extended meanings, such as “human life in general,” or “the earth and everything living on it.” These are some of its most common meanings today. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/world We, humans, do like to make things complicated, don't we? So there is no "end of the world" in the Scriptures. In the case of 'tello' the KJV again uses the word "end" to represent this Ancient Greek term. So the KJV makes no distinction. I hope this answers your questions. I would like to get back to this word "death." I am still not clear on how you distinguish using the figurative from the literal. What are the qualifications and/or the formula that determine if a word like "death" is literal or figurative? How do you decide? ok, I have no problem with that. And yes the kjv really confused alot of people with the word "world" As for death. I wouldn't say I have a specific criteria or way I determine which way to use it. Not unless I do and just do t realize it. But anyway Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die here, we have adam, not eve, told he would die in the day he ate of this tree. but we well know that they didn't die in that day. You and I talked about this particular verse a little at one time. so we will just leave this one as either/or fig/physically. I'm gonna jump to paul Romans 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. Here, paul speaks that he was once alive but has died, yet he is still physically alive, walking and talking. I don't remember if we have spoke of this verse, but imo, this is plainly speaking figuratively. I intentionally started at Genisis and then went to Romans to show a little something. Romans 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring for fruit unto death. The above is 5 verses before paul speaks of being alive, and being dead. and how sin, slew him. As a matter of fact, it is only in the previous chapter where paul says. Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus christ our Lord. Now most people claim that physical death is the wages of sin. but back up and read Romans 5, Romans 6, Romans 7, and be honest, how many times is death or dying, dead mentioned. how many times is he speaking in the literal sense? I can't help it, I'm just gonna quote a few things here. Rom. 7:and the commandment which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death 11 ) for sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and slew me. Rom. 6:23. For the wages of sin is death.......... Do you really think paul was speaking of a literal death being the wages of sin? let me go a little futher. let's connect death and judgement Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offense of one, judgement came upon all men to condemnation, even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. notice here how the offense, "sin" brought judgment, in other places, "sin" brings forth death. Paul said in Heb. 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgement. Most want to place this in the future and say it is speaking of literal death. well, if judgment comes after literal death, how does peter expect for judgment to begin with them. 1st peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgement must begin at the house of God and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? Peter isn't waiting on a literal death for judgement. Whew it's late I gotta run I can't even keep my thoughts straight.
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bigd9832 Chicago, IL 64, joined Oct. 2007	CLV Gn 2:17 Yet from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you are not to be eating from it, for in the day you eat from it, to die shall you be dying." The KJV strikes again. "for in the day you eat from it, to die shall you be dying" Adam didn't die on that day. Adam received dying. What is dying, you might ask? It's our mortal condition. It's growing old. Crosslinking among other cellular breakdowns. Old age. It is the condition that eventually leads to death, physical death. There's a great book you might find among used bookstores call The Lost Books of the Bible and The Forgotten Books of Eden. It is one of the collections of Apocrypha books. Get it. There is a story of Adam and Eve. It seems Adam fell and the Lord God caught him and brought him into Eden. Adam had never experienced death before. So when the Lord God revived him, he was kinda bewildered. Ever notice there are two different creations of man? Only one is the creation of man. The other, his revival. CLV Gn 3:19 In the sweat of your face shall you eat your bread, till your return to the ground, for from it are you taken, for soil you are, and to soil are you returning. It doesn't actually say "on that day." Adam's punishment for disobeying God was "dying." It leads to death just as surely as poison or a bullet can. Is there anyone on this Earth you think will be able to avoid death? And the only way to avoid growing old is to die young. CLV Ro 7:7 What, then, shall we declare? That the law is sin? May it not be coming to that! But sin I knew not except through law. For besides, I had not been aware of coveting except the law said, "You shall not be coveting." 8 Now Sin, getting an incentive through the precept, produces in me all manner of coveting. For apart from law Sin is dead. 9 Now I lived, apart from law, once, yet at the coming of the precept Sin revives. Yet I died, _____Strong's_____ G599 apothnesko ap-oth-nace'-ko from G575 and G2348; to die off (literally or figuratively). Those same two conditions are in "death" and "die" in both Ancient Hebrew and Ancient Greek. And I have said before, and I will say again, that there are times when the Bible uses the word "death" figuratively. But I believe that normally when the word "death" is used, it represents the physical, literal kind. The figurative version is the exception. And you seem to go the other way. So, yes, Romans 7:9 Paul means a figurative type of death. But isn't that obvious to most? Wouldn't anyone assume that when reading this for the first time? He is alive and talking about being dead. It's got to be a metaphor of some type. CLV Ro 7:4 So that, my brethren, you also were put to death to the law through the body of Christ, for you to become Another's, Who is roused from among the dead, that we should be bearing fruit to theGod. 5 For, when we were in the flesh, the passions of sins, which were through the law, operated in our members to be bearing fruit to Death. A wife and her husband are one flesh (Gen 2:24), hence the wife dies with the husband, but the woman remains. Those united to Christ under law died with Him to the law. Union with Christ in resurrection is a new relationship beyond the sphere of the law. A. E. Knoch We become a new creature and have a new relationship with God and Christ. Paul talks a little about how the relation of sin and death works. CLV Ro 6:23 For the ration of Sin is death, yet the gracious gift of God is life eonian, in Christ Jesus, our Lord. Sin, like slave holders, does not pay wages, but only supplies rations. This consists, at present, in an attitude toward God which is the equivalent of death, for all Sin's slaves avoid God's presence. Hence their deeds will result in destruction. Neither do we, as slaves, look for wages. God not only gives, but gives graciously, or gratuitously, the very reward which is only for those whose endurance in good acts merits it—eonian life, or life for the eons (2:7). A. E. Knoch And that "life" comes when Jesus returns and causes the Resurrection of all mankind. CLV 1C 15:51 Lo! a secret to you am I telling! We all, indeed, shall not be put to repose, yet we all shall be changed, 52 in an instant, in the twinkle of an eye, at the last trump. For He will be trumpeting, and the dead will be roused incorruptible, and we shall be changed. This belief goes as far back as Israel... CLV John 11:23 Jesus is saying to her, "Your brother will be rising." 24 Martha is saying to Him, "I am aware that he will be rising in the resurrection in the last day." 25 Jesus said to her, "I am the Resurrection and the Life. He who is believing in Me, even if he should be dying, shall be living. 26 And everyone who is living and believing in Me, should by no means be dying for the eon. Are you believing this?" The Jews, for thousands of years, believed in a physical Resurrection for all mankind. It was foretold by the prophets. It is the reason why Joseph wanted his bones to be removed to the promised land, aka Jerusalem.
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bigd9832 Chicago, IL 64, joined Oct. 2007	cont. Quote from looptex1: Do you really think paul was speaking of a literal death being the wages of sin? The question is irrelevant. The point behind this verse, which is already quoted above, is about "the gracious gift of God is life eonian, in Christ Jesus, our Lord." So it really doesn't matter to me if Paul was speaking of a literal death or a figurative one. CLV Ro 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just award for all mankind for life's justifying. We know that it was Adam who was punished for his sin of disobeying God. "Life's justifying." We will be justified when Jesus returns and gives us Life Eonian. We are forgiven now. But justification is another level of forgiveness, so to speak. CLV Hb 9:27 And, in as much as it is reserved to men to be dying once, yet after this a judging, 28 thus Christ also, being offered once for the bearing of the sins of many, will be seen out a second time, by those awaiting Him, apart from sin, for salvation, through faith. This is not a general statement concerning all men, but the men who have been in view continually, that is, the Levitical priests. The word judgment has no reference to the judgment of mankind for sin, but the setting to rights of those cases in Israel which continued until the death of the high priest. The innocent man-slayer lived in the city of refuge until the death of the great priest (Num 35:22-29). Then he might return to his patrimony. This was his "judgment". The parallel demands that this judgment correspond with the salvation which will come to those who are awaiting Christ. He, the great Chief Priest, has died, and in due time Israel, the man-slayer, shall return to the land of his possession. This appearance of Christ refers to His return to Israel. He will bring salvation to all, whether they watch or are drowsy (1Th 5:10) when He comes for us. But to Israel, He brings salvation to those awaiting Him. Just as the high priest entered the holy of holies on the great day of atonement and came out to bless the waiting throng, so Christ has entered the heavenly sanctuary and will bring a benediction when He comes. A. E. Knoch It is not our "judgment" he is referring to. But any and all judgment must happen AFTER Jesus returns and the Resurrection has taken place. Never before. We must have a body to stand in front of Christ and/or God. CLV 1Pt 4:15 For let not any of you be suffering as a murderer, or a thief, or an evildoer, or as an interferer in other's affairs; 16 yet if as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, yet let him be glorifying God in this name, 17 seeing that it is the era for the judgment to begin from the house of God. Now if first from us, what is the consummation of those who are stubborn as to God's evangel? Paradoxical as it may seem, only Jews are Christians in the Scriptures. The term is never applied to the nations, but only to Jews or proselytes. Paul never uses the name in his epistles. It occurs only in Acts, which is concerned with the past rejection of the kingdom, and in Peter, which looked forward to its future realization. It is a notable example of the manner in which Scriptural terms have been utterly perverted from their original use. A. E. Knoch Again, this is not referring to our judgment. Quote from looptex1: Peter isn't waiting on a literal death for judgement. No, he is not. He is awaiting the return of our Lord and the Resurrection He brings. CLV Jn 5:29 and those who do good shall go out into a resurrection of life, yet those who commit bad things, into a resurrection of judging. The Scriptures tell us that judgment comes after the Resurrection, not before. I think you are doing just fine, loop. You have found some of the holes in the KJV and have attempted to fill them with what makes sense to you. It is my own opinion that if you switch to a more accurate Bible you will learn just how all these things work together. Always a pleasure to work with you. I have been trying to tone down my smartassery. I hope I haven't offended you at all.
4/7/2017 5:41:45 PM	Just how close are WE? \| Page 2
followjesusonly Kingman, AZ 74, joined May. 2012	*Bigd: "Always a pleasure to work with you." Jim Lovell: "Gentlemen, it's been a privilege flying with you." (Tom Hanks-Apollo 13)
4/9/2017 8:39:23 PM	Just how close are WE? \| Page 2
followjesusonly Kingman, AZ 74, joined May. 2012	Just how close are we? Maybe this close:
4/9/2017 11:38:05 PM	Just how close are WE? \| Page 2
looptex1 Chatsworth, GA 49, joined Jun. 2008	Alot to think on there bigd. But, you have not offended me at all. Just thought I'd let you know that. I've not forgot about this thread.
5/30/2017 8:43:38 AM	Just how close are WE? \| Page 2
cupocheer Assumption, IL 68, joined May. 2010

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