I and the Father, We are one

3/16/2017 10:16:52 PM	I and the Father, We are one \| Page 7
cupocheer Assumption, IL 68, joined May. 2010	*Get Ready* Meet singles at DateHookup.dating, we're 100% free! Join now!
3/17/2017 3:30:09 PM	I and the Father, We are one \| Page 7
bigd9832 Chicago, IL 64, joined Oct. 2007	Further proof that there is no "trinity" in the Bible... CLV Jn 17:3 Now it is eonian life that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Him Whom Thou dost commission, Jesus Christ. How many? "Only One True God" Not three. CLV Ga 3:20 Now there is not Mediator of one. Yet God is One. Again, God is ONE, not three. CLV Dt 6:4 Hear, Israel! Yahweh is our Elohim; Yahweh the only One. And again, God is ONE, not three. CLV Ps 83:18 So that men may realize that You, You, Whose Name is Yahweh, Yours alone, Are the Supreme over all the earth. { Permanent, On the Wine Trough } Yahweh belongs toGod alone. No one else. CLV Jn 6:44 No one can come to Me if ever the Father Who sends Me should not be drawing him. And I shall be raising him in the last day. Jesus was sent by God, the Father. CLV Jn 6:65 And He said, "Therefore have I declared to you that no one can be coming to Me if it should not be given him of the Father." Unless God sends us, we cannot come to Jesus. There are several places in the Bible where God is described as ONE. But I don't see anywhere in the Bible where God is described as THREE. And I do mean the number THREE. Can anyone find God described in the Bible as THREE? Just an added note... From Encyclopedia Britannica Trinity (Christianity) Trinity Christianity in Christian doctrine, the unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three persons in one Godhead. Neither the word Trinity nor the explicit doctrine appears in the New Testament ... https://www.britannica.com/search?query=trinity
3/20/2017 11:48:38 AM	I and the Father, We are one \| Page 7
freegratis Irving, TX 50, joined Dec. 2011	Quote from bigd9832: ... It is time for you to concede this one, bigd9832. CLV John 8:58-59 58 Jesus said to them, "Verily, verily, I am saying to you, Ere Abraham came into being, I am." 59 They pick up stones, then, that they should be casting them at Him... Revelation 1:17-18 And when I perceived Him, I fall at His feet as dead. And He places His right hand on me, saying, "Do not fear! I am the First and the Last, 18 and the Living One: and I became dead, and lo! living am I for the eons of the eons. (Amen!) And I have the keys of death and of the unseen." LOL "and of the unseen" must be the garbage dump in Israel per CLV. Avoid John 8:59 one more time.
3/20/2017 12:39:00 PM	I and the Father, We are one \| Page 7
bigd9832 Chicago, IL 64, joined Oct. 2007	Quote from freegratis: It is time for you to concede this one, bigd9832. CLV John 8:58-59 58 Jesus said to them, "Verily, verily, I am saying to you, Ere Abraham came into being, I am." 59 They pick up stones, then, that they should be casting them at Him... This does not prove that Jesus is God. It shows that Jesus as the Son of God was with God during creation, But the Bible tells us that Jesus was one of God's creation... CLV 1C 15:21 For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead. CLV 1C 15:27 For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. 28 Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all. In verse 21 Jesus is referred to as a man, the same as Adam. In Verse 27 Jesus is subject to God. Can you explain how God can be subject to God? CLV Re 1:17 And when I perceived Him, I fall at His feet as dead. And He places His right hand on me, saying, "Do not fear! I am the First and the Last, 18 and the Living One: and I became dead, and lo! living am I for the eons of the eons. (Amen!) And I have the keys of death and of the unseen. First and Last (Isa 41:4, 44:6, 48:12; Rev 2:8, 22:13) is a title of Jehovah, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer. A. E. Knoch Again, this does NOT say that Jesus is God. Quote from freegratis: LOL "and of the unseen" must be the garbage dump in Israel per CLV. The "unseen" is a translation of sheol/hades. It is the figurative place where all souls go. Quote from freegratis: Avoid John 8:59 one more time. I am surprised at you. This is the first time you have lied about what I have done. You know yourself that I have addressed John 8:59 twice in this thread alone. John 8: 59 does not say that Jesus tells us He is God. Where is the verse that says Jesus tells us He is God? You have pretty much ignored most every Bible verse that I have presented here. You have yet to show a verse where God is described as three. All you are doing it stitching together a bunch of unrelated Bible verses. Perhaps it is time that you actually read the bible.
3/20/2017 1:02:37 PM	I and the Father, We are one \| Page 7
bigd9832 Chicago, IL 64, joined Oct. 2007	Even more Scriptural evidence to support the idea that there is no "trinity" in the Bible. CLV Jn 14:28 You hear that I said to you, `I am going, and I am coming to you.' If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. How can God be greater than God? CLV Jn 20:17 Jesus is saying to her, "Do not touch Me, for not as yet have I ascended to My Father. Now go to My brethren, and say to them that I said, `Lo! I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'" Your God and My God? How can God have a God? CLV 1C 8:6 nevertheless for us there is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is, and we for Him, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom all is, and we through Him. Just one God, not three. CLV 1Pt 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who, according to His vast mercy, regenerates us into a living expectation, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from among the dead, God is the Father of Jesus Christ. This makes Jesus His Son. This is exactally what Jesus said He is, The Only Begotten Son of God. Some more Bible verses that you can ignore.
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ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 64, joined Feb. 2008	If Jesus is not God Incarnate---if He is just another man---then His teachings on morals are just human opinions, and worldly souls like that. Worldly souls that call themselves Christian, but who are divorced and seek to remarry, or who do nothing to avoid impure thoughts, or who eat and drink to excess, or who are in love with money and the things it can buy, or who do nothing to curb their anger, or who think they can beglect good works, or who think they can freely take God's holy name in vain---these people are uncomfortable with the notion of a Jesus Who is God.
3/20/2017 2:06:41 PM	I and the Father, We are one \| Page 7
bigd9832 Chicago, IL 64, joined Oct. 2007	Where did "trinity" come from? “The impression could arise that the Trinitarian dogma is in the last analysis a late 4th-century invention. In a sense, this is true . . . The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century.”—New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967), Volume 14, page 299. “The Council of Nicaea met on May 20, 325 [C.E.]. Constantine himself presided, actively guiding the discussions, and personally proposed . . . the crucial formula expressing the relation of Christ to God in the creed issued by the council, ‘of one substance with the Father.’ . . . Overawed by the emperor, the bishops, with two exceptions only, signed the creed, many of them much against their inclination.”—Encyclopædia Britannica (1970), Volume 6, page 386. FACT: The Trinitarian dogma is a late fourth-century invention Of course, anyone can see the evidence for his/her self. All you have to do is follow the church's Ecumenical Councils and read how this "trinity" doctrine evolved. First Seven Ecumenical Councils: First Council of Nicaea (325 A.D.) ... First Council of Constantinople (381 A.D.) ... First Council of Ephesus (431 A.D.) ... Council of Chalcedon (451 A.D.) ... Second Council of Constantinople (553 A.D.) ... Third Council of Constantinople (680-681 A.D.) ... Second Council of Nicaea (787 A.D.) The Illustrated Bible Dictionary gives one reason. Speaking of the Trinity, this publication admits: “It is not a biblical doctrine in the sense that any formulation of it can be found in the Bible.” Because the Trinity is “not a biblical doctrine,” Trinitarians have been desperately looking for Bible texts—even twisting them—to find support for their teaching.
3/21/2017 10:57:51 AM	I and the Father, We are one \| Page 7
freegratis Irving, TX 50, joined Dec. 2011	Quote from bigd9832: I am surprised at you. This is the first time you have lied about what I have done. You know yourself that I have addressed John 8:59 twice in this thread alone. John 8: 59 does not say that Jesus tells us He is God. Where is the verse that says Jesus tells us He is God? You have pretty much ignored most every Bible verse that I have presented here. You have yet to show a verse where God is described as three. All you are doing it stitching together a bunch of unrelated Bible verses. Perhaps it is time that you actually read the bible. I'm tiring of your red herring argument pointing to verse 59 as if I did not say to read verse 58 for the claim which almost got him stoned in verse 59. You did not address the phrase "*I AM". If some ancient entity WAS* before Abraham, the phrase would be "*I WAS". 58 Jesus said to them, "Verily, verily, I am saying to you, Ere Abraham came into being, I am." 59 They pick up stones, then, that they should be casting them at Him...* No one but Elohim says, "before X, I AM". The normal construct should be "before X, I WAS". First and Last (Isa 41:4, 44:6, 48:12; Rev 2:8, 22:13) is a title of Jehovah, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer. A. E. Knoch You say First and Last is a title of Jehovah, but somehow this supports your argument against mine instead of the reverse? Jesus said I am the First and the Last in Rev 1:17 and we know it is Him because in verse 18, he says "I became dead, and lo! living am I for the eons of the eons". I am the First and the Last and the Living One: and I became dead, and lo! living am I for the eons of the eons. I was thinking this morning that the twisted way CLV says things makes you miss the I AM construct (assuming you are being honest in your misunderstanding). In any other setting, it would be obvious that the phrase should be I WAS for some ancient "non-Jehovah" entity before Abraham WAS, if it was to support your beings that live thousands of years argument. It's not even "before Abraham am, I am". Genesis 1:1 from memory "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth". CLV Created by the Elohim were the heavens and the earth. NIV In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. KJV In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. NKJV In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. CJB In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Biblehub Interlinear read from right to left: In the beginning created God the heavens and the earth. I am sorry to say that CLV has you twisted.
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ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 64, joined Feb. 2008	Why, at John 8:59, were the Newish leaders so angered that they tried to stone Jesus? Because they understood Jesus' statement at verse 58 correctly---Jesus was claiming to be God! The Jewish leaders thought that a mere human being claiming to be God was blasphemy, and had Jesus not in fact been God Incarnate Jesus would have in fact been guilty of blasphemy, or mental illness. C. S. Lewis put it best---Jesus is either Lord, liar, or lunatic,"Lord" being a title the Jews reserved for God alone. [Edited 3/21/2017 12:46:06 PM ]
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bigd9832 Chicago, IL 64, joined Oct. 2007	Quote from freegratis: You did not address the phrase "I AM". You insist on lying. Quote from bigd9832: There is no "I Am." CLV Ex 3:14 Then Elohim spoke to Moses: I shall come to be just as I am coming to be. And He said: Thus shall you say to the sons of Israel, I-Shall-Come-to-Be has sent me to you. John 1:1 - Impressive https://DateHookup.dating/thread-734540.htm There is no "trinity" in the Bible. The "I Am" is an interpretation from the KJV. Not a translation. Quote from freegratis: If some ancient entity WAS before Abraham, the phrase would be "I WAS". https://DateHookup.dating/thread-1456867-301.htm I wouldn't call the Son of God an "ancient entity." But what you are suggesting is English, not Ancient Koine Greek. The NT was written about 1000 years before there was English. The phrase would NOT be "I WAS." From the Tanakh... Exodus 4:14 And God said to Moses, "Ehyeh-asher-Ehyeh." He continued, "Thus shall you say to the Israelites, 'Eh-yeh has sent me to you.' Two different English versions, both more accurate than the KJV and no "I Am." Quote from freegratis: I don't care if you capitalize "I AM" or not. The short "I am" phrase is the same in any language. No one uses that short phrase in that manner but God. And the confirming point is that after Jesus said this, they picked up stones to stone him! In the Ancient Koine Greek text, there are no capitalized words. No punctuation. No Breaks for words, sentences, or paragraphs. It reads as one big word. Quote from freegratis: I am sorry to say that CLV has you twisted. I have tried to explain the difference between the other English versions and the CLV. Apparently, you are not capable of understanding.
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bigd9832 Chicago, IL 64, joined Oct. 2007	The "trinity" is only important if it is true. God is not going to change His nature because you believe He should.
3/21/2017 9:33:06 PM	I and the Father, We are one \| Page 7
prophetic774 Winter Haven, FL 66, joined Feb. 2011	JESUS SAYS, "MY BROTHERS ARE THOSE WHO HEARS GOD'S WORD AND PUTS IT INTO PRACTICE" Psalm 119 has 176 verses praising the Word of God. The Old Testament had 613 laws and the New Covenant of Jesus and His love has about 400 commands which Psalm 119 also applies to. Some of my favorite verses is Psalm 119 are: 119:105: Your Word is a Lamp to my feet and a Light for my path. 119:97: Oh how I love your law, I meditate on it all day long. 119:148: My eyes stay open through the watches of the night, that I meditate on your promises. 119:164: Seven times a day I praise you for your righteous laws. 119:16: All your Words are true; all your righteous laws are eternal. 119:169: Give me understanding according to your Word. 119:2: Blessed are those who keep His statues and seek Him with all your heart. 119:11: I have hidden your Word in my heart that I might not sin against You. Deuteronomy 18:17-19: The Lord says, "I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put My words in His mouth, and He will tell them everything I command Him. If anyone does not listen to My words that the Prophet speaks in My Name, I Myself will call Him to account." John 14:23,24: Jesus says, "If anyone loves Me, He will OBEY MY TEACHING. My Father will love Him, and we will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me will not obey My teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent Me." Revelation 1:1-3: The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants what must take place. He made it known by sending His angel to His servant John, who testifies to everything he saw--that is, the WORD OF GOD and the testimony of Jesus Christ. Blessed is the one who reads the WORDS OF THIS PROPHECY, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it!! Revelation 22:16,18,19: "I, Jesus. have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the Churches.... I warn everyone who hears the WORDS OF THE PROPECY OF THIS BOOK: If anyone ADDS anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this Book {Including ETERNAL HELL} And if anyone TAKES WORDS AWAY from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the Tree of Life and in the Holy City {The New Jerusalem}, which are described in this book." THE GREAT COMMISSION: Matthew 28:18-20: Jesus says, “All authority in heaven and on EARTH has been given to Me {Not some RC Pope}. Therefore go and make disciples of ALL NATIONS...teaching them to OBEY EVERYTHING* I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very END OF THE AGE!” I Peter 1:23-25: You have been born again.. through the Living and Enduring Word of God. All men are like grass, and all their glory is like the flowers of the field, the grass withers and the flowers fall, but the WORD OF THE LORD STANDS FOREVER. And this is the WORD that was preached to you. Matthew 24:35: Jesus says, Heaven and earth will pass away, but MY WORDS WILL NEVER PASS AWAY!" I John 2:3-5: We know we have come to know Him {Jesus} if we obey His commands. The man who says, "I know Him," but does not do what He commands is a liar and the truth is not in him. But if anyone OBEYS HIS WORD, God's love is truly made complete in him! Matthew 4:4: Jesus says, "Man does not live on bread alone, but on EVERY WORD FROM THE MOUTH OF GOD!" Matthew 7:24,26: Jesus says, "Everyone who hears these WORDS OF MINE and PUTS THEM INTO PRACTICE is like a wise man who built his house on a Rock... But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand." James 1:22,25: Do not merely listen to the WORD, and so deceive yourselves. DO WHAT IT SAYS... The man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, BUT DOING IT, he will be blessed in what he does. Luke 8:21: Jesus says, "My mother and brothers are those who hears GOD'S WORD and PUTS IT INTO PRACTICE!" Matthew 13:23: Jesus says, "But the one who received the seed that fell on good soil is the man who hears the WORD AND UNDERSTANDS IT. He produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown." Luke 8:15: Jesus says, "But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the WORD, retain it, and by perseverance produce a crop." John 17:17: Jesus prays to His Father, "Sanctify them by the Truth, YOUR WORD IS TRUTH!" Acts 20:32: Paul says, "Now I commit you to God and to the WORD OF HIS GRACE, which can build you up and give you an inheritance among all those who are sanctified!" Romans 10:17: Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard THROUGH THE WORD OF CHRIST! I Corinthians 15:2: By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly o the WORD I preached to you. Otherwise you have believed in vain! 2 Corinthians 2:17: Unlike so many, we do not peddle the WORD OF GOD for profit! 2 Corinthians 4:2: We do not use deception, nor do we distort the WORD OF GOD! Ephesians 1:`13: You also were included in Christ WHEN you heard the WORD of Truth, the gospel of your salvation. Ephesians 2:17: Take the sword of the Spirit, which is the WORD OF GOD! Colossians 1:25: I have become its servant by the commission God gave to me to present to you the WORD OF GOD IN ALL ITS FULLNESS! Colossians 3:16: Let the WORD OF CHRIST dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom! 2 Timothy 2:15: Do your best to present yourselves to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who CORRECTLY HANDLES THE WORD of truth! 2 Timothy 3:15,16: 4:1,2: You have known the HOLY SCRIPTURES,which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. ALL SCRIPTURE IS GOD-BREATHED and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of His appearing and His kingdom, I give you this charge: PREACH THE WORD!! Matthew 16:27: Jesus says, “The Son of Man is going to come in His Father's glory with His angels and THEN He will REWARD each person according to what he has done!” Daniel 12:3: Those who are impart wisdom {NIV} will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever!!
3/24/2017 1:36:05 PM	I and the Father, We are one \| Page 7
freegratis Irving, TX 50, joined Dec. 2011	I've been hearing Daniel 12:3 a few times this week. You too?
4/7/2017 6:50:38 PM	I and the Father, We are one \| Page 7
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/jesus_iam.html http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/fathers_on_jn8_58.html http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/rebuttals/abualrub/before_adam1.html Pt.1 http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/rebuttals/abualrub/before_adam2.html Pt.2 http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Shabir-Ally/inseparable1.htm http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Ghounem/iam.htm http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/thompson/where_i_am_god.html http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/christology.htm http://answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/moreproof_paulinechristology.html http://answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/petrine_christology.html http://answering-islam.org/Shamoun/jesus_is_yahweh.htm http://answering-islam.org/Shamoun/jesus_equality.htm http://answering-islam.org/Shamoun/jesus_god_man.htm http://answering-islam.org/Shamoun/jesus_on_throne.htm http://answering-islam.org/Shamoun/jesus_king_of_kings.htm http://answering-islam.org/Shamoun/jesus_walks_on_sea.htm http://answering-islam.org/Shamoun/jesus_yahweh_cor.htm http://answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/jesus_divine_name.html http://answering-islam.org/Shamoun/q_jesus_kurios.htm
5/28/2017 7:57:16 AM	I and the Father, We are one \| Page 7
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	Here is a fascinating video that addresses not only the clear delineation of the Trinity long before the Council of Nicea but addresses the change in theology of the LDS (Mormons) and Roman Catholics. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWQ-I-9Z2E8
5/30/2017 8:38:41 AM	I and the Father, We are one \| Page 7
cupocheer Assumption, IL 68, joined May. 2010
6/17/2017 5:51:00 AM	I and the Father, We are one \| Page 7
brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	https://www.jashow.org/articles/guests-and-authors/dr-john-ankerberg/i-and-my-father-are-one/ I and My Father are One John 10:22-30 (NASB) 22 At that time the Feast of the Dedication took place at Jerusalem; 23 it was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple in the portico of Solomon. 24 The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me. 26 ”But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27 ”My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 ”My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father’s hand. 30 ”I and the Father are one.” W. A. Criswell, The Believer’s Study Bible: “One” asserts not the identity (as a single Person) but the essential unity of the Father and the Son. (Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 1997. ©1991, Criswell Center for Biblical Studies) Jamieson, Fausset, Brown Commentary: I and my Father are one—Our language admits not of the precision of the original in this great saying. “Are” is in the masculine gender—“we (two persons) are”; while “one” is neuter—“one thing.” Perhaps “one interest” expresses, as nearly as may be, the purport of the saying. There seemed to be some contradiction between His saying they had been given by His Father into His own hands, out of which they could not be plucked, and then saying that none could pluck them out of His Father’s hands, as if they had not been given out of them. “Neither have they,” says He; “though He has given them to Me, they are as much in His own almighty hands as ever—they cannot be, and when given to Me they are not, given away from Himself, for HE AND I HAVE ALL IN COMMON.” Thus it will be seen, that, though oneness of essence is not the precise thing here affirmed, that truth is the basis of what is affirmed, without which it would not be true. And Augustine was right in saying the “We are” condemns the Sabellians (who denied the distinction of Persons in the Godhead), while the “one” (as explained) condemns the Arians (who denied the unity of their essence). (David Brown, D.D., “Commentary on John 10”. “Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible.) The New Treasury of Scripture Knowledge: This oneness Jesus claimed with the Father must not be reduced to mere oneness in “agreement, purpose and organization,” equating this degree of oneness with that of believers with the Father and the Son (Jn. 17:20-22), for if this is all Christ asserted, he would not have been accused of blasphemy (ver. 33), for even the OT prophets had asserted as much (Is. 48:16). (Jerome H. Smith, editor, The New Treasury of Scripture Knowledge, Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 1997, © 1992 Jerome H. Smith.) KJV Bible Commentary: I and my Father are one. God the Father and God the Son are in agreement in the matter of the believer’s eternal security. On the basis of this passage, no one should ever doubt the eternal security of his salvation. Once a person is genuinely saved, he is saved forever. (Jerry Fallwell, Executive editor, Edward E. Hinson, Michael Kroll Woodrow, general editors, KJV Bible Commentary, Nashville, Thomas Nelson, 1997, © 1994) Matthew Henry’s Commentary: Further to corroborate the security, that the sheep of Christ may have strong consolation, he asserts the union of these two undertakers: “I and my Father are one, and have jointly and severally undertaken for the protection of the saints and their perfection.” This denotes more than the harmony, and consent, and good understanding, that were between the Father and the Son in the work of man’s redemption. Every good man is so far one with God as to concur with him; therefore it must be meant of the oneness of the nature of Father and Son, that they are the same in substance, and equal in power and glory. The fathers urged this both against the Sabellians, to prove the distinction and plurality of the persons, that the Father and the Son are two, and against the Arians, to prove the unity of the nature, that these two are one. If we should altogether hold our peace concerning this sense of the words, even the stones which the Jews took up to cast at him would speak it out, for the Jews understood him as hereby making himself God (v. 33) and he did not deny it. He proves that none could pluck them out of his hand because they could not pluck them out of the Father’s hand, which had not been a conclusive argument if the Son had not had the same almighty power with the Father, and consequently been one with him in essence and operation. (Matthew Henry, Matthew Henry’s Commentary on the Bible, Peabody, MA: Hendrickson Publishers, 1997) John Gill’s Exposition of the Bible: I and [my] Father are one. Not in person, for the Father must be a distinct person from the Son, and the Son a distinct person from the Father; and which is further manifest, from the use of the verb plural, “I and [my] Father, we are one”; that is, in nature and essence, and perfections, particularly in power; since Christ is speaking of the impossibility of plucking any of the sheep, out of his own and his Father’s hands; giving this as a reason for it, their unity of nature, and equality of power; so that it must be as impracticable to pluck them out of his hands, as out of his Father’s, because he is equal with God the Father, and the one God with him. The Jew objects, that …if the sense of this expression is, that the Father and the Son are one, as the Nazarenes understand and believe it, it will be found that Jesus himself destroys this saying, as it is written in (Mark 13:32), for saith Jesus, “that day and that hour, there is knoweth, not the angels, nor the Son, but the Father only”; lo, these words show, that the Father and the Son are not one, since the Son does not know what the Father knows. (Isaac Chizzuk Emuna, par. 2. c. 50. p. 438, 439) (continued)
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brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	But it should be observed, that Christ is both the Son of God, and the son of man, as the Christians believe; as he is the Son of God, he lay in the bosom of his Father, and was privy to all his secrets, to all his thoughts, purposes, and designs; and as such, he knew the day and hour of judgment, being God omniscient; and in this respect is one with the Father, having the same perfections of power, knowledge… but then as the son of man, he is not of the same nature, and has not the same knowledge. His knowledge of things was derived, communicated, and not infinite; and did not reach to all things at once, but was capable of being increased, as it was: and it is with regard to him as the son of man, that Jesus speaks of himself in (Mark 13:32); whereas he is here treating of his divine sonship & almighty power; wherefore considered in the relation of the Son of God & as possessed of the same perfections with God, he & his Father are one; though as man, he is different from him & knew not some things he did: so that there is no contradiction between the words of Christ in one place & in the other; nor is he chargeable with any blasphemy against God, or any arrogance in himself, by assuming deity to himself; nor deserving of punishment, even to be deprived of human life, as the Jew suggests. Nor is what he produces from a Socinian writer, of any moment, that these words do not necessarily suppose, that the Father & the Son are of the same essence; since it may be said of two men, that they are one, end yet are not the same man, but one is one man, and the other another. For we do not say they are one and the same person, which does not follow from their being of one and the same nature, but that they are one God, and two distinct persons. (The New John Gill’s Exposition of the Entire Bible (Modernized & adapted for the computer by Larry Pierce of Online Bible.) All Rights Reserved, Larry Pierce, Winter-bourne, Ontario.)
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cupocheer Assumption, IL 68, joined May. 2010
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brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	https://www.chaim.org/leper.htm When one studies rabbinic ideas of the Messiah one comes upon a very curious idea: Messiah is a Leper! Where does this idea come from? We'll tell you below, but first consider some of the rabbinic references. Babylonian Talmud: "The Messiah --what is his name?...The Rabbis say, The Leper Scholar, as it is said, `surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him a leper, smitten of God and afflicted...'" (Sanhedrin 98b) The Talmud also "records" a supposed discourse between the great Rabbi Joshua ben Levi and the prophet Elijah. The rabbi asks "When will the Messiah come?" And "By what sign may I recognize him?" Elijah tells the rabbi to go to the gate of the city where he will find the Messiah sitting among the poor lepers. The Messiah, says the prophet, sits bandaging his leprous sores one at a time, unlike the rest of the sufferers, who bandage them all at once. Why? Because he might be needed at any time and would not want to be delayed. Elijah says he will come "Today, if you will listen to his voice." (Sanhedrin 98a) There is also a strange story about the Baal Shem Tov, founder of the Hasidic movement. One day the rabbi was riding with a young student. He stopped his wagon at the hut of an old leper, horribly affected by the disease. The rabbi climbed down and spent a great deal of time with the poor man. When he returned to the wagon and recommenced his journey, the puzzled student asked the rabbi who it was that the rabbi had visited with. The rabbi replied that in every generation there is a Messiah who will reveal himself if the generation is worthy. The leper he had been meeting with was that Messiah, but the generation was not worthy, so the Messiah would depart. (Quoted in The Messiah Texts, by Raphael Patai, page 31.) Where did this "Leper Messiah" idea come from? This odd concept must have arisen from the rabbis as they struggled with Isaiah 53. They either saw the Messiah's sufferings as leprosy or split the Messiah in two, one a sufferer and one a conqueror. (See the section on the "Two-Messiahs" theory.) The Hebrew words in Isaiah 53:4, stricken (nagua) and smitten (mukkay) are interpreted as referring to a leprous condition. Either word can refer to being stricken with a disease, yet they need not be understood in that way, much like our English work "stricken" can refer to stricken with disease or just simply stricken, as with a fist. Either way, Jesus was stricken. He was certainly made sick by the Roman floggings and beatings and the tortuous ordeal of crucifixion. He was certainly stricken with the Roman lash. As a leper was despised and rejected of men, so also was the Messiah despised and rejected. And still today there are many who see Jesus as being as repugnant as leprosy and his followers as those who should be isolated and shunned. To the followers of the Suffering One, his afflictions, described in Isaiah 53, are the agonies of one dying to provide atonement. The lamb being led to slaughter envisioned by Isaiah is described as one punished in the place of his people. Jesus, the true Messiah, came as the "Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world." His crucifixion provided a substitutionary sacrifice adequate to fulfill the punishment we all deserve. Let us praise the God of Israel, our Redeemer, who has provided his Messiah to take the just punishment for his people so that we might be forgiven our sins!
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brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	https://www.chaim.org/2messiah.htm Patai, Raphael, The Messiah Texts, Avon Books, © 1979. When one studies rabbinic views of the Messiah one finds something very interesting. Many ancient rabbis spoke of two Messiahs, one who was the "Son of David" and another who was the "Son of Joseph." Though one can find the sufferings of Messiah attributed to the sufferings of the Davidic Messiah in many rabbinic writings, often a second Messiah is posited, the "Son of Joseph" or "Son of Ephraim," who is the one who suffers while the Davidic Messiah conquers. The rabbis struggled with Biblical portraits of a suffering Messiah, as found in Isaiah 53 and other places, and portraits of a conquering Messiah, also found in the Hebrew Bible. They posited two Messiahs, but could it not also be reasonable to believe there is just one Messiah but two aspects of his mission, a suffering aspect and a conquering aspect? The eminent scholar Raphael Patai, who "taught Hebrew at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem" and served as Professor of Anthropology at Dropsie University,1said this of the two-messiah theory: "When the death of the Messiah became an established tenet in Talmudic times, this was felt to be irreconcilable with the belief in the Messiah as Redeemer who would usher in the blissful millennium of the Messianic Age. The dilemma was solved by splitting the person of the Messiah in two: one of them, called Messiah ben Joseph, was to raise the armies of Israel against their enemies, and, after many victories and miracles, would fall victim Gog and Magog. The other, Messiah ben David, will come after him (in some legends will bring him back to life, which psychologically hints at the identity of the two), and will lead Israel to the ultimate victory, the triumph, and the Messianic era of bliss."2 There is only one Messiah, but there are two comings and two aspects of his ministry. The Messiah came the first time to provide atonement for sin. He is now expanding his kingdom and conquering the Gentiles, not by the sword, but by preaching. (In this century alone over 50,000,000 Chinese have come to faith in the God of Israel through Jesus, even while being persecuted.) Messiah's Kingdom is growing tremendously among the Koreans and in Africa and South America. Many earthly rulers bow down before Messiah Jesus. One day he will return to judge the earth and to bring in his Kingdom in all its fullness. Know him now as your sin-bearer and bow before him today as your King, and when he returns you will not need to fear the judgement, because he came to receive the judgement in the place of those who trust him.
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iam_resurrected Reno, NV 46, joined Jul. 2014	Christ Himself seemed to make a point going to where the lepers were and healing them. somewhere the Rabbi's had leprosy correct
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brashdoc Chehalis, WA 64, joined Aug. 2008	bump

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