| 1/13/2017 6:35:33 PM |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
64, joined Feb. 2008
online now!
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God is intimately involved with His creation, but He does stand apart from creation.
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| 1/13/2017 7:02:09 PM |
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kb2222
Jacksonville, FL
76, joined Apr. 2011
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What's a co-ordinated infinite nature?
Wouldn't divine will always be coherent and cohesive? why add an adjective?
That I believe would be referring to the Trinity of Father, Eternal Son and the Holy Spirit.
what does eternity and expression have to do with each other? please explain.
The phrase is "exhibited in eternity and universality of perfect expression"
That I believe would be indicative that God inhabits eternity and is universally perfect.
What does Personality have to do with Revelation?
You know if you would exactly quote a phrase and not just pick out a word here and there and think about it you should be able to discern what the phrase means, asanb. Or, are you just nit-pick in because you don't want to give serious thought to what I posted?
The phrase/statement is..."Personality, in the supreme sense, is the revelation of God to the universe of universes."
Although you may not agree the statement is not hard to understand, asanb, so you should be able to see why your question is just plain DUMB.
There is only one "universe" it is all inclusive by definition. How can there be a "universe of universes"?
The UB reveals that the "universe" is well organized, that there are Local universe systems and Super universe systems with all being inclusive under the designation of the Grand universe and in addition there are vast areas where space-forces are currently being organized to bring into existence even more enormous areas. The "universe of universes" would appear to be just another designation meaning the "Grand Universe."
Now that your nit-pickin questions have been answered I would venture to say you are no more interested in giving serious thought to those UB quotes than you are now for I believe all you want to do is evade serious contemplation. That's about it, right, asanb?
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| 1/13/2017 7:12:57 PM |
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kb2222
Jacksonville, FL
76, joined Apr. 2011
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God is intimately involved with His creation, but He does stand apart from creation.
Yes, and God knows every lie and false outrageous claim you make Ludlow but you don't care do you?
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| 1/13/2017 7:17:40 PM |
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kb2222
Jacksonville, FL
76, joined Apr. 2011
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Quote from kb2222:
Everything is designed to have a consciousness relative to its form and substance and God is the designer who offers eternal life to those who seek Him.
Is that an idea from the Urantia Book expressed in simple , plan language?
Thank God You understand it, I can't.
Verbosity is not clarity.
You are screwed up. You just said its "expressed in simple , plan language" then you say you "can't understand it" saying "Verbosity is not clarity." 
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| 1/13/2017 7:36:54 PM |
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fyathyrio
Savannah, GA
48, joined Nov. 2009
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God is intimately involved with His creation, but He does stand apart from creation.
If God is intimately involved in "his creation" then I suppose you believe God answers prayers.
I bet many patients suffering from terminal diseases have prayed to God hoping for a miracle.
There may even be evidence of miraculous healings.
I would bet there has never been a case involving an amputee who prayed for a new leg and received it.
Do you wonder why God would cure one person's disease, but not give an amputee a new leg?
Surely there have been many God loving amputees who have prayed for such.
When you call God a "he" separation is implied
[Edited 1/13/2017 7:37:51 PM ]
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| 1/13/2017 7:52:37 PM |
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kb2222
Jacksonville, FL
76, joined Apr. 2011
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When you call God a "he" separation is implied
God is not separated from man. It is man that is separated from God. And it is man that must experientially and spiritually grow or fall by the wayside.
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| 1/13/2017 7:59:21 PM |
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fyathyrio
Savannah, GA
48, joined Nov. 2009
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God is not separated from man. It is man that is separated from God. And it is man that must experientially and spiritually grow or fall by the wayside.
I would agree that many people feel separated from God.
In my view, it is a false sense.
Everything is connected. Opposites are really complimentary.
Good and evil are not opposites they are extremes of the same pole.
Everything is one thing.
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| 1/13/2017 8:13:06 PM |
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kb2222
Jacksonville, FL
76, joined Apr. 2011
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There is no other you and you are not Obama nor are you a tree. And if you can't distinguish good from evil you have a serious problem.
[Edited 1/13/2017 8:14:55 PM ]
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| 1/13/2017 9:20:27 PM |
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fyathyrio
Savannah, GA
48, joined Nov. 2009
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There is no other you and you are not Obama nor are you a tree. And if you can't distinguish good from evil you have a serious problem.
The great scientist Tesla said
"If you want to know the secrets of the universe think in terms of frequency and vibration."
Yes it is true I am not a tree nor am I Obama. I can distinguish good from evil too.
All I am saying is that opposites are actually identical in nature, but different in degree.
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| 1/13/2017 9:42:02 PM |
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kb2222
Jacksonville, FL
76, joined Apr. 2011
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The great scientist Tesla said
"If you want to know the secrets of the universe think in terms of frequency and vibration."
Well, I agree with Tesla. Everything vibrates at a certain frequency.
Yes it is true I am not a tree nor am I Obama. I can distinguish good from evil too.
All I am saying is that opposites are actually identical in nature, but different in degree.
That's so much hogwash when you are talking about human conduct and the acceptance or rejection of the existence of a divine Creator.
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| 1/13/2017 9:46:41 PM |
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fyathyrio
Savannah, GA
48, joined Nov. 2009
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That's so much hogwash when you are talking about human conduct and the acceptance or rejection of the existence of a divine Creator.
good and evil describe human behavior.....identical in nature , but different in degree.
that's not hogwash my friend that is fact......
how do you see it differently?
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| 1/13/2017 9:56:25 PM |
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fyathyrio
Savannah, GA
48, joined Nov. 2009
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Remember, in my opinion God is impersonal. Your belief isn't required or necessary. God is really more a matter of understanding rather than belief to me.
I am, not a big Bible fan, but I do like the line that reads
In all thy getting, get understanding.
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| 1/13/2017 11:17:29 PM |
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followjesusonly
Kingman, AZ
74, joined May. 2012
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That's so much hogwash when you are talking about human conduct and the acceptance or rejection of the existence of a divine Creator.
kb, I think it's time to pull the plug on wasting time on some of these people.
We have told them about God's new revelation to our world, The Urantia Book.
We have told them what it claims to be and what we believe it to be.
We have told them where they can get one for a nominal cost, and even where and how they can read it for free. What more can we do?
And still they refuse to look. They refuse to read it, and they make a game out of doing both and out of arguing about it. They have avoidance rationalizations for every contingency.
Just block them. This thread isn't about any questions anyone refuses to discuss. fyathyrio just hears his own side. Even when you discuss it, they don't want to hear it. Don't waste any more time on them. We've done all we can with some people. I blocked asanb months and months ago. He doesn't even LIKE books.
Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast. ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them. under their feet, and turn again and rend you. Mt 7:6
And don't try to teach a pig to sing.
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| 1/14/2017 7:17:03 AM |
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fyathyrio
Savannah, GA
48, joined Nov. 2009
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kb, I think it's time to pull the plug on wasting time on some of these people.
We have told them about God's new revelation to our world, The Urantia Book.
We have told them what it claims to be and what we believe it to be.
We have told them where they can get one for a nominal cost, and even where and how they can read it for free. What more can we do?
And still they refuse to look. They refuse to read it, and they make a game out of doing both and out of arguing about it. They have avoidance rationalizations for every contingency.
Just block them. This thread isn't about any questions anyone refuses to discuss. fyathyrio just hears his own side. Even when you discuss it, they don't want to hear it. Don't waste any more time on them. We've done all we can with some people. I blocked asanb months and months ago. He doesn't even LIKE books.
Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast. ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them. under their feet, and turn again and rend you. Mt 7:6
And don't try to teach a pig to sing.
kbb ....I am rather enjoying my discussion with you.
Follow please stay and continue to express your view. By the way, you answered my question with your own question. I answered.
Lets continue the discussion.
I completely understand if you choose to disengage at this point.
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| 1/14/2017 8:31:50 AM |
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fyathyrio
Savannah, GA
48, joined Nov. 2009
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kbb an follow,
As I said earlier, I feel God is more of an impersonal force that works according to certain principles. You have probably heard the expression "Math is the language of God".
I feel God is an intrinsic thing.
I get why people think of God as the "creator". On the surface it seems logical to think the creation needs a creator.
If God is the creator, Do you think God still creates? (please don't avoid answering this)
I feel that it is more rational to think that we simply got it wrong or were lied to by the church about the nature of God.
When God is considered a "who" then followers are required to "believe in" a particular God as opposed to understanding the broader all encompassing idea of God.
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| 1/14/2017 10:40:26 AM |
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kb2222
Jacksonville, FL
76, joined Apr. 2011
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The Urantia Book
Paper 1
The Universal Father *
1:0.1 (21.1) THE Universal Father is the God of all creation, the First Source and Center of all things and beings. First think of God as a creator, then as a controller, and lastly as an infinite upholder. The truth about the Universal Father had begun to dawn upon mankind when the prophet said: “You, God, are alone; there is none beside you. You have created the heaven and the heaven of heavens, with all their hosts; you preserve and control them. By the Sons of God were the universes made. The Creator covers himself with light as with a garment and stretches out the heavens as a curtain.” Only the concept of the Universal Father — one God in the place of many gods — enabled mortal man to comprehend the Father as divine creator and infinite controller.
1:0.2 (21.2) The myriads of planetary systems were all made to be eventually inhabited by many different types of intelligent creatures, beings who could know God, receive the divine affection, and love him in return. The universe of universes is the work of God and the dwelling place of his diverse creatures. “God created the heavens and formed the earth; he established the universe and created this world not in vain; he formed it to be inhabited.”
1:0.3 (21.3) The enlightened worlds all recognize and worship the Universal Father, the eternal maker and infinite upholder of all creation. The will creatures of universe upon universe have embarked upon the long, long Paradise journey, the fascinating struggle of the eternal adventure of attaining God the Father. The transcendent goal of the children of time is to find the eternal God, to comprehend the divine nature, to recognize the Universal Father. God-knowing creatures have only one supreme ambition, just one consuming desire, and that is to become, as they are in their spheres, like him as he is in his Paradise perfection of personality and in his universal sphere of righteous supremacy. From the Universal Father who inhabits eternity there has gone forth the supreme mandate, “Be you perfect, even as I am perfect.” In love and mercy the messengers of Paradise have carried this divine exhortation down through the ages and out through the universes, even to such lowly animal-origin creatures as the human races of Urantia.
1:0.4 (22.1) This magnificent and universal injunction to strive for the attainment of the perfection of divinity is the first duty, and should be the highest ambition, of all the struggling creature creation of the God of perfection. This possibility of the attainment of divine perfection is the final and certain destiny of all man’s eternal spiritual progress.
1:0.5 (22.2) Urantia mortals can hardly hope to be perfect in the infinite sense, but it is entirely possible for human beings, starting out as they do on this planet, to attain the supernal and divine goal which the infinite God has set for mortal man; and when they do achieve this destiny, they will, in all that pertains to self-realization and mind attainment, be just as replete in their sphere of divine perfection as God himself is in his sphere of infinity and eternity. Such perfection may not be universal in the material sense, unlimited in intellectual grasp, or final in spiritual experience, but it is final and complete in all finite aspects of divinity of will, perfection of personality motivation, and God-consciousness.
1:0.6 (22.3) This is the true meaning of that divine command, “Be you perfect, even as I am perfect,” which ever urges mortal man onward and beckons him inward in that long and fascinating struggle for the attainment of higher and higher levels of spiritual values and true universe meanings. This sublime search for the God of universes is the supreme adventure of the inhabitants of all the worlds of time and space.
1. The Father’s Name
1:1.1 (22.4) Of all the names by which God the Father is known throughout the universes, those which designate him as the First Source and the Universe Center are most often encountered. The First Father is known by various names in different universes and in different sectors of the same universe. The names which the creature assigns to the Creator are much dependent on the creature’s concept of the Creator. The First Source and Universe Center has never revealed himself by name, only by nature. If we believe that we are the children of this Creator, it is only natural that we should eventually call him Father. But this is the name of our own choosing, and it grows out of the recognition of our personal relationship with the First Source and Center.
1:1.2 (22.5) The Universal Father never imposes any form of arbitrary recognition, formal worship, or slavish service upon the intelligent will creatures of the universes. The evolutionary inhabitants of the worlds of time and space must of themselves — in their own hearts — recognize, love, and voluntarily worship him. The Creator refuses to coerce or compel the submission of the spiritual free wills of his material creatures. The affectionate dedication of the human will to the doing of the Father’s will is man’s choicest gift to God; in fact, such a consecration of creature will constitutes man’s only possible gift of true value to the Paradise Father. In God, man lives, moves, and has his being; there is nothing which man can give to God except this choosing to abide by the Father’s will, and such decisions, effected by the intelligent will creatures of the universes, constitute the reality of that true worship which is so satisfying to the love-dominated nature of the Creator Father.
1:1.3 (22.6) When you have once become truly God-conscious, after you really discover the majestic Creator and begin to experience the realization of the indwelling presence of the divine controller, then, in accordance with your enlightenment and in accordance with the manner and method by which the divine Sons reveal God, you will find a name for the Universal Father which will be adequately expressive of your concept of the First Great Source and Center. And so, on different worlds and in various universes, the Creator becomes known by numerous appellations, in spirit of relationship all meaning the same but, in words and symbols, each name standing for the degree, the depth, of his enthronement in the hearts of his creatures of any given realm.
continued
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| 1/14/2017 10:41:26 AM |
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kb2222
Jacksonville, FL
76, joined Apr. 2011
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Page 2
1:1.4 (23.1) Near the center of the universe of universes, the Universal Father is generally known by names which may be regarded as meaning the First Source. Farther out in the universes of space, the terms employed to designate the Universal Father more often mean the Universal Center. Still farther out in the starry creation, he is known, as on the headquarters world of your local universe, as the First Creative Source and Divine Center. In one near-by constellation God is called the Father of Universes. In another, the Infinite Upholder, and to the east, the Divine Controller. He has also been designated the Father of Lights, the Gift of Life, and the All-powerful One.
1:1.5 (23.2) On those worlds where a Paradise Son has lived a bestowal life, God is generally known by some name indicative of personal relationship, tender affection, and fatherly devotion. On your constellation headquarters God is referred to as the Universal Father, and on different planets in your local system of inhabited worlds he is variously known as the Father of Fathers, the Paradise Father, the Havona Father, and the Spirit Father. Those who know God through the revelations of the bestowals of the Paradise Sons, eventually yield to the sentimental appeal of the touching relationship of the creature-Creator association and refer to God as “our Father.”
1:1.6 (23.3) On a planet of sex creatures, in a world where the impulses of parental emotion are inherent in the hearts of its intelligent beings, the term Father becomes a very expressive and appropriate name for the eternal God. He is best known, most universally acknowledged, on your planet, Urantia, by the name God. The name he is given is of little importance; the significant thing is that you should know him and aspire to be like him. Your prophets of old truly called him “the everlasting God” and referred to him as the one who “inhabits eternity.”
2. The Reality of God
1:2.1 (23.4) God is primal reality in the spirit world; God is the source of truth in the mind spheres; God overshadows all throughout the material realms. To all created intelligences God is a personality, and to the universe of universes he is the First Source and Center of eternal reality. God is neither manlike nor machinelike. The First Father is universal spirit, eternal truth, infinite reality, and father personality.
1:2.2 (23.5) The eternal God is infinitely more than reality idealized or the universe personalized. God is not simply the supreme desire of man, the mortal quest objectified. Neither is God merely a concept, the power-potential of righteousness. The Universal Father is not a synonym for nature, neither is he natural law personified. God is a transcendent reality, not merely man’s traditional concept of supreme values. God is not a psychological focalization of spiritual meanings, neither is he “the noblest work of man.” God may be any or all of these concepts in the minds of men, but he is more. He is a saving person and a loving Father to all who enjoy spiritual peace on earth, and who crave to experience personality survival in death.
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| 1/14/2017 11:59:28 AM |
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fyathyrio
Savannah, GA
48, joined Nov. 2009
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I read all that kbb and it sounds similar to my feeling on the subject. The only barrier I sense between God and man is one of realization. Now, The book reads that we have our being in God. I agree and even stated that I feel God is intrinsic. I don't think we are far apart. I do not feel the same about personality though.
[Edited 1/14/2017 12:02:07 PM ]
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| 1/14/2017 12:23:34 PM |
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kb2222
Jacksonville, FL
76, joined Apr. 2011
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I read all that kbb and it sounds similar to my feeling on the subject. The only barrier I sense between God and man is one of realization. Now, The book reads that we have our being in God. I agree and even stated that I feel God is intrinsic.
Well, yes, of course the barrier between man and God is one of realization but why do you say you "feel God is intrinsic"? Intrinsic to what" How do you define intrinsic?
I don't think we are far apart. I do not feel the same about personality though.
That's too bad. Perhaps you will explain how you think a impersonal God could place value on words/concepts/meanings and call man to perfection?
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| 1/14/2017 2:31:12 PM |
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asanb
Sanbornton, NH
61, joined Jul. 2012
online now!
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kb, I think it's time to pull the plug on wasting time on some of these people.
We have told them about God's new revelation to our world, The Urantia Book.
We have told them what it claims to be and what we believe it to be.
We have told them where they can get one for a nominal cost, and even where and how they can read it for free. What more can we do?
And still they refuse to look. They refuse to read it, and they make a game out of doing both and out of arguing about it. They have avoidance rationalizations for every contingency.
Just block them. This thread isn't about any questions anyone refuses to discuss. fyathyrio just hears his own side. Even when you discuss it, they don't want to hear it. Don't waste any more time on them. We've done all we can with some people. I blocked asanb months and months ago. He doesn't even LIKE books.
Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast. ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them. under their feet, and turn again and rend you. Mt 7:6
And don't try to teach a pig to sing
I feel almost the same way about the TUB group.
What a shame to loose the opportunity to experience one`s own revelation in enslavement to a book.
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| 1/14/2017 2:36:42 PM |
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rufftreasure
Fairmont, MN
61, joined Jun. 2014
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Because the concept of God/Goddess is a superior energetic and intellectual being than we are, and because this energy/ being / intellect is so superior we cannot even begin to fathom this, it's bigger than our understanding, and because all that is ,is US, we and this higher power aren't separate we are one. Humans are holy as is this higher power.
Neither completely evil or good for all energy has the capacity to be positive ,negative, or balanced, this includes God/Godess.
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| 1/14/2017 4:26:48 PM |
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fyathyrio
Savannah, GA
48, joined Nov. 2009
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Our words carry a vibration. So, they have an effect on others and ourselves. I said earlier there are certain principles by which an impersonal God operates. Vibration is one of those princies. So value in words and concepts is also intrinsic.
Intrinsic means....narural, essential, I like to say built in, if you will.
In my opinion, God is like math or music. It just is.
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| 1/14/2017 6:17:47 PM |
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kb2222
Jacksonville, FL
76, joined Apr. 2011
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Our words carry a vibration. So, they have an effect on others and ourselves.
True, but rationally it is not the vibration but rather the "meaning" of the word that conveys the effect. Right?
I said earlier there are certain principles by which an impersonal God operates. Vibration is one of those princies. So value in words and concepts is also intrinsic.
Intrinsic means....narural, essential, I like to say built in, if you will.
Please explain how you think vibration in and of itself gives value in words and concepts?
In my opinion, God is like math or music. It just is.
Math and music cannot give value to words and concepts. That requires conscious thought so will you please explain how you think math/music and/or vibrations become conscious?
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| 1/14/2017 6:27:01 PM |
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rufftreasure
Fairmont, MN
61, joined Jun. 2014
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Practice, experience, and understanding, comprehension.
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| 1/14/2017 6:37:33 PM |
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kb2222
Jacksonville, FL
76, joined Apr. 2011
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Practice, experience, and understanding, comprehension.
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| 1/14/2017 9:01:17 PM |
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followjesusonly
Kingman, AZ
74, joined May. 2012
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asanb eschews books. He's like that black guy in the bible that Ludlow always brings up to prove we need the Catholic church. I think the black guy was a eunuch too.
Act 8:31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me?
asanb needs a Guru to show him everything.
You can sit around and wait for the phone to ring (end of the line)
Waiting for someone to tell you everything (end of the line)
Sit around and wonder what tomorrow will bring (end of the line)
Maybe a diamond ring -End of the Line. The Traveling Wilburys
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| 1/14/2017 9:44:24 PM |
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fyathyrio
Savannah, GA
48, joined Nov. 2009
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Math and music cannot give value to words and concepts. That requires conscious thought so will you please explain how you think math/music and/or vibrations become conscious?
True, but rationally it is not the vibration but rather the "meaning" of the word that conveys the effect. Right?
I feel that the intention behind the word has something to do with the vibration that is created and then the meaning is conveyed.
It is like when people say that's what I said but not what I meant. The meaning sometimes is not as important as the intention.
As far as giving value to words, We do that
Words become concrete in a way.
Words become flesh and dwell among us you might say.
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| 1/14/2017 10:02:07 PM |
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rufftreasure
Fairmont, MN
61, joined Jun. 2014
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Math and music cannot give value to words and concepts. That requires conscious thought so will you please explain how you think math/music and/or vibrations become conscious?
Practice, experience, and understanding, comprehension.
That was an answer to this.
[Edited 1/14/2017 10:02:51 PM ]
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| 1/15/2017 2:40:22 AM |
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followjesusonly
Kingman, AZ
74, joined May. 2012
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Math and music cannot give value to words and concepts. That requires conscious thought so will you please explain how you think math/music and/or vibrations become conscious?
Practice, experience, and understanding, comprehension.
That was an answer to this.
I think kb's point is that math and music cannot practice, experience, understand, or comprehend anything. Only people can do those things.
But then again I haven't been following the thread very closely. I believe God is a person and fyathyrio doesn't. End of discussion. Let's get on our bikes and ride.
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| 1/15/2017 6:29:42 AM |
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fyathyrio
Savannah, GA
48, joined Nov. 2009
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I think kb's point is that math and music cannot practice, experience, understand, or comprehend anything. Only people can do those things.
But then again I haven't been following the thread very closely. I believe God is a person and fyathyrio doesn't. End of discussion. Let's get on our bikes and ride.
This is what I just don't see at all.
A person created the universe?
Is there another definition of person that I am unaware of?
Is it that you think there is a supernatural person with powers to do anything and who chooses to remain invisible?
I suppose if God was an actual entity that he could take any form and do anything he wanted. Doesn't that beg the question then......why does it matter so much to some people that they insist God is a person?
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| 1/15/2017 7:58:54 AM |
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rufftreasure
Fairmont, MN
61, joined Jun. 2014
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I think kb's point is that math and music cannot practice, experience, understand, or comprehend anything. Only people can do those things.
But then again I haven't been following the thread very closely. I believe God is a person and fyathyrio doesn't. End of discussion. Let's get on our bikes and ride.
Montrose is good too, with " Bad Motorscooter" 
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| 1/15/2017 9:31:57 AM |
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asanb
Sanbornton, NH
61, joined Jul. 2012
online now!
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The Matrix is just a movie, but the analogy between Their universe being a construction of digital bits and ours being a construction of vibration is valid. Vibration can be expressed as light, sound, matter and energy. The further analogy is that our universe is a song that is being sung by a singer
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| 1/15/2017 10:03:17 AM |
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fyathyrio
Savannah, GA
48, joined Nov. 2009
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kb... you say God is a personality and gives value to words/concepts. I am interested in why it is necessary to have a God that does that?
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| 1/15/2017 11:04:34 AM |
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kb2222
Jacksonville, FL
76, joined Apr. 2011
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kb... you say God is a personality and gives value to words/concepts. I am interested in why it is necessary to have a God that does that?
5:4.1 (66.5) The morality of the religions of evolution drives men forward in the God quest by the motive power of fear. The religions of revelation allure men to seek for a God of love because they crave to become like him. But religion is not merely a passive feeling of “absolute dependence” and “surety of survival”; it is a living and dynamic experience of divinity attainment predicated on humanity service.
5:4.2 (66.6) The great and immediate service of true religion is the establishment of an enduring unity in human experience, a lasting peace and a profound assurance. With primitive man, even polytheism is a relative unification of the evolving concept of Deity; polytheism is monotheism in the making. Sooner or later, God is destined to be comprehended as the reality of values, the substance of meanings, and the life of truth.
5:4.3 (67.1) God is not only the determiner of destiny; he is man’s eternal destination. All nonreligious human activities seek to bend the universe to the distorting service of self; the truly religious individual seeks to identify the self with the universe and then to dedicate the activities of this unified self to the service of the universe family of fellow beings, human and superhuman.
5:4.4 (67.2) The domains of philosophy and art intervene between the nonreligious and the religious activities of the human self. Through art and philosophy the material-minded man is inveigled into the contemplation of the spiritual realities and universe values of eternal meanings.
5:4.5 (67.3) All religions teach the worship of Deity and some doctrine of human salvation. The Buddhist religion promises salvation from suffering, unending peace; the Jewish religion promises salvation from difficulties, prosperity predicated on righteousness; the Greek religion promised salvation from disharmony, ugliness, by the realization of beauty; Christianity promises salvation from sin, sanctity; Mohammedanism provides deliverance from the rigorous moral standards of Judaism and Christianity. The religion of Jesus is salvation from self, deliverance from the evils of creature isolation in time and in eternity.
5:4.6 (67.4) The Hebrews based their religion on goodness; the Greeks on beauty; both religions sought truth. Jesus revealed a God of love, and love is all-embracing of truth, beauty, and goodness.
5:4.7 (67.5) The Zoroastrians had a religion of morals; the Hindus a religion of metaphysics; the Confucianists a religion of ethics. Jesus lived a religion of service. All these religions are of value in that they are valid approaches to the religion of Jesus. Religion is destined to become the reality of the spiritual unification of all that is good, beautiful, and true in human experience.
5:4.8 (67.6) The Greek religion had a watchword “Know yourself”; the Hebrews centered their teaching on “Know your God”; the Christians preach a gospel aimed at a “knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ”; Jesus proclaimed the good news of “knowing God, and yourself as a son of God.” These differing concepts of the purpose of religion determine the individual’s attitude in various life situations and foreshadow the depth of worship and the nature of his personal habits of prayer. The spiritual status of any religion may be determined by the nature of its prayers.
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As I understand your philosophy, fyathyrio, you reject the teachings of Jesus and never pray for how can you pray to an "it" i.e. a primal force or energy? Indeed, how can you love, fellowship with and worship such a impersonal "it"? Clearly, then, you choose to
live for "self" and have no desired destination past the experiencing of death. Please correct me if I am mistaken.
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fyathyrio
Savannah, GA
48, joined Nov. 2009
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I searched for God
and found only myself
I searched for myself
and found only God
RUMI
I will never feel like God is outside of me.
I am because God is.
A person searching for God is like fish searching for water.
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| 1/15/2017 11:22:40 AM |
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fyathyrio
Savannah, GA
48, joined Nov. 2009
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As I understand your philosophy, fyathyrio, you reject the teachings of Jesus and never pray for how can you pray to an "it" i.e. a primal force or energy? Indeed, how can you love, fellowship with and worship such a impersonal "it"? Clearly, then, you choose to
live for "self" and have no desired destination past the experiencing of death. Please correct me if I am mistaken.
I do not reject the teachings of Jesus. Our interpretation of what he taught may differ, but I do not and never indicated that I did.
In fact I do pray. I pray to the universe which I understand as God.
I do not worship anything. I have respect for things.
I have throughout my life looked forward to death only because I am confident that death is not the terrible thing we've been taught to fear. There is more behind death's door to discover.
Sooner or later, God is destined to be comprehended as the reality of values, the substance of meanings, and the life of truth.
The sentence above is from your book.
Isn't that pretty darn close to what I have been saying?
[Edited 1/15/2017 11:25:30 AM ]
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ymia_dikhed
Gresham, OR
43, joined Dec. 2011
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All I want is decent conversation with a Christian who is willing to discuss their answer to this question.
If you can believe in an eternal God that created the universe then why not just believe in an eternal universe understood as God?
Because the universe has been bound by time in and through the eyes of man. It is called the "Universe" man has named it so therefore it has a name given to it by man who is bound by time. The Lord said "I AM" meaning he is not yesterday nor tomorrow but he is the HERE and NOW. We can not place a name on God as we can the Universe because God came in his own name not one given by man. Hence he is not bound by time because he walks in Faith and Faith is Here and Now. So since the "Universe" has been given the name the Universe by man it too has been soiled by the restriction of time as is the flesh of man. Anything bound by time is just another piece of creation that has been created by FAITH by one greater than something bound by time.
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| 1/15/2017 11:47:48 AM |
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kb2222
Jacksonville, FL
76, joined Apr. 2011
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I do not reject the teachings of Jesus. Our interpretation of what he taught may differ, but I do not and never indicated that I did.
I don't know how you can honestly claim you don't reject the teachings of Jesus when you don't believe in the Fatherhood of God or that God is even a personality that one can know and love.
In fact I do pray. I pray to the universe which I understand as God.
Of what value is a prayer directed to a impersonal it?
I do not worship anything. I have respect for things.
That's too bad.
I have throughout my life looked forward to death only because I am confident that death is not the terrible thing we've been taught to fear. There is more behind death's door to discover.
I agree death should not be feared for it comes with being mortal but for those like yourself who believe God is an impersonal it, force or energy just what do you believe is behind death's door?
Sooner or later, God is destined to be comprehended as the reality of values, the substance of meanings, and the life of truth.
The sentence above is from your book.
Isn't that pretty darn close to what I have been saying?
No, its not as I understand what you have been saying. Haven't you been saying God is a impersonal "it" a force or energy that is without personality existence and/or conscious thought?
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fyathyrio
Savannah, GA
48, joined Nov. 2009
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Because the universe has been bound by time in and through the eyes of man. It is called the "Universe" man has named it so therefore it has a name given to it by man who is bound by time. The Lord said "I AM" meaning he is not yesterday nor tomorrow but he is the HERE and NOW. We can not place a name on God as we can the Universe because God came in his own name not one given by man. Hence he is not bound by time because he walks in Faith and Faith is Here and Now. So since the "Universe" has been given the name the Universe by man it too has been soiled by the restriction of time as is the flesh of man. Anything bound by time is just another piece of creation that has been created by FAITH by one greater than something bound by time.
God said "I am that I am"
Everybody says or thinks those two words "I am" millions if not billions of times in a lifetime. I feel that is what "The word became flesh and dwelt among us" means.
The word universe translates to mean one word or one song.
So again I ask why do people think God is something else?
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fyathyrio
Savannah, GA
48, joined Nov. 2009
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the truly religious individual seeks to identify the self with the universe and then to dedicate the activities of this unified self to the service of the universe family of fellow beings, human and superhuman.
also from your book and I feel that anybody following our discussion would agree that it is pretty darn close to what I have been saying.
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kb2222
Jacksonville, FL
76, joined Apr. 2011
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I am not going to respond and answer different post questions of yours until you quote and respond to my post.
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| 1/15/2017 12:19:05 PM |
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fyathyrio
Savannah, GA
48, joined Nov. 2009
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I am not going to respond and answer different post questions of yours until you quote and respond to my post.
In one of my posts i said god is consciousness itself, but because we dont yet fully understand the nature of consciousness i cant really expand on that. Impersonal maybe is not the best word. I use it to express the idea that God doesnt play favorites or interfere in human affairs. I would clarify by adding that the universe/God is reciprocal.
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asanb
Sanbornton, NH
61, joined Jul. 2012
online now!
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" Haven't you been saying God is a impersonal "it" a force or energy that is without personality existence and/or conscious thought?"
This, is the crux of the problem. "God is a personality" is a limiting statement. God s MORE THAN a personality. God as MORE than a personality is More capable of univesal love, Universal consciousness, and universal intelligence.
God is all that is, was and will ever be.
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| 1/16/2017 8:43:45 AM |
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kb2222
Jacksonville, FL
76, joined Apr. 2011
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1:5.1 Do not permit the magnitude of God, his infinity, either to obscure or eclipse his personality. “He who planned the ear, shall he not hear? He who formed the eye, shall he not see?” The Universal Father is the acme of divine personality; he is the origin and destiny of personality throughout all creation. God is both infinite and personal; he is an infinite personality. The Father is truly a personality, notwithstanding that the infinity of his person places him forever beyond the full comprehension of material and finite beings.
1:5.2 God is much more than a personality as personality is understood by the human mind; he is even far more than any possible concept of a superpersonality. But it is utterly futile to discuss such incomprehensible concepts of divine personality with the minds of material creatures whose maximum concept of the reality of being consists in the idea and ideal of personality. The material creature’s highest possible concept of the Universal Creator is embraced within the spiritual ideals of the exalted idea of divine personality. Therefore, although you may know that God must be much more than the human conception of personality, you equally well know that the Universal Father cannot possibly be anything less than an eternal, infinite, true, good, and beautiful personality.
1:5.13 Personality is not simply an attribute of God; it rather stands for the totality of the co-ordinated infinite nature and the unified divine will which is exhibited in eternity and universality of perfect expression. Personality, in the supreme sense, is the revelation of God to the universe of universes.
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| 1/16/2017 9:15:17 AM |
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fyathyrio
Savannah, GA
48, joined Nov. 2009
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1:5.1 Do not permit the magnitude of God, his infinity, either to obscure or eclipse his personality. “He who planned the ear, shall he not hear? He who formed the eye, shall he not see?” The Universal Father is the acme of divine personality; he is the origin and destiny of personality throughout all creation. God is both infinite and personal; he is an infinite personality. The Father is truly a personality, notwithstanding that the infinity of his person places him forever beyond the full comprehension of material and finite beings.
1:5.2 God is much more than a personality as personality is understood by the human mind; he is even far more than any possible concept of a superpersonality. But it is utterly futile to discuss such incomprehensible concepts of divine personality with the minds of material creatures whose maximum concept of the reality of being consists in the idea and ideal of personality. The material creature’s highest possible concept of the Universal Creator is embraced within the spiritual ideals of the exalted idea of divine personality. Therefore, although you may know that God must be much more than the human conception of personality, you equally well know that the Universal Father cannot possibly be anything less than an eternal, infinite, true, good, and beautiful personality.
1:5.13 Personality is not simply an attribute of God; it rather stands for the totality of the co-ordinated infinite nature and the unified divine will which is exhibited in eternity and universality of perfect expression. Personality, in the supreme sense, is the revelation of God to the universe of universes.
Personality: The combination of characteristics or qualities that form an individual's distinctive character.
The author of Urantia has taken the word "personality" and changed its meaning to fit his claim about God. A claim he further states that we are incapable of comprehending. In any case though kbb, personality is still an abstract concept. God understood as the universe seems a more rational assumption. Yes, we must both admit that our attempts to define and understand God forces us to make assumptions. In truth, we are all just guessing.
The beginning of wisdom is to admit that you do not know.
And I don't.
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| 1/16/2017 10:04:37 AM |
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kb2222
Jacksonville, FL
76, joined Apr. 2011
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Personality: The combination of characteristics or qualities that form an individual's distinctive character.
The author of Urantia has taken the word "personality" and changed its meaning to fit his claim about God. A claim he further states that we are incapable of comprehending. In any case though kbb, personality is still an abstract concept. God understood as the universe seems a more rational assumption. Yes, we must both admit that our attempts to define and understand God forces us to make assumptions. In truth, we are all just guessing.
The beginning of wisdom is to admit that you do not know.
And I don't.
The UB quote clearly states:
"Therefore, although you may know that God must be much more than the human conception of personality, you equally well know that the Universal Father cannot possibly be anything less than an eternal, infinite, true, good, and beautiful personality."
"Personality is not simply an attribute of God; it rather stands for the totality of the co-ordinated infinite nature and the unified divine will which is exhibited in eternity and universality of perfect expression. Personality, in the supreme sense, is the revelation of God to the universe of universes."
If you can't grasp that God is an "eternal, infinite, true, good, and beautiful personality" that you can fellowship with and experience within the depth of your soul and not a mindless impersonal it, force or energy that could care less about your conduct in this life or in the next that's your PROBLEM. What are you striving to become like, fyathyrio? An impersonal it? Or a divine loving and caring personality?
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| 1/16/2017 12:39:40 PM |
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fyathyrio
Savannah, GA
48, joined Nov. 2009
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The UB quote clearly states:
"Therefore, although you may know that God must be much more than the human conception of personality, you equally well know that the Universal Father cannot possibly be anything less than an eternal, infinite, true, good, and beautiful personality."
"Personality is not simply an attribute of God; it rather stands for the totality of the co-ordinated infinite nature and the unified divine will which is exhibited in eternity and universality of perfect expression. Personality, in the supreme sense, is the revelation of God to the universe of universes."
If you can't grasp that God is an "eternal, infinite, true, good, and beautiful personality" that you can fellowship with and experience within the depth of your soul and not a mindless impersonal it, force or energy that could care less about your conduct in this life or in the next that's your PROBLEM. What are you striving to become like, fyathyrio? An impersonal it? Or a divine loving and caring personality?
Kbb. I grasp what is being said. I just dont agree with all of it. I am striving to know myself better and know God better. I just feel that God is the energy around us, the biinding force that connects all things, consciousness itself maybe.
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| 1/16/2017 2:21:31 PM |
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kb2222
Jacksonville, FL
76, joined Apr. 2011
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Kbb. I grasp what is being said. I just dont agree with all of it. I am striving to know myself better and know God better. I just feel that God is the energy around us, the biinding force that connects all things, consciousness itself maybe.
In God we live, move and have our being. So I ask you how do you think you are ever going to know God who you claim is a "impersonal it" force or energy which were that the case would be completely unaware and totally unconcerned with what you or anyone does in this life? If that were the case you might as well believe God is akin to an electrical field and you are merely an electrode. Are you telling me in effect that you place no value on increasing righteousness? That you believe when you die that you cease to exist as a personality and are just absorbed into an electrical circuit or what?
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| 1/16/2017 2:55:04 PM |
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fyathyrio
Savannah, GA
48, joined Nov. 2009
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In God we live, move and have our being. So I ask you how do you think you are ever going to know God who you claim is a "impersonal it" force or energy which were that the case would be completely unaware and totally unconcerned with what you or anyone does in this life? If that were the case you might as well believe God is akin to an electrical field and you are merely an electrode. Are you telling me in effect that you place no value on increasing righteousness? That you believe when you die that you cease to exist as a personality and are just absorbed into an electrical circuit or what?
The book says in God we live, move, and have our being
I say God is what is, the energy in and around us, consciousness itself. all of which we live, move and have our being.
I do not agree that this energy/force impersonal or not is unaware. In a sense, we are the eyes of the universe. It's as if God is so clever he disguised himself as us. I am trying to be as simple as possible with my conclusions about the nature of God. It's like God is in us, around us, and through us. There is nothing that isn't God. Now this could all be grounded in Love too, but I don't know that. What I do know is that I am here, I don't know the limits, and God is the fundamental question of my existence. So I conclude simply that God is what is, as opposed to an unknowable something else that created everything because some book says so. I also feel that we are not far apart here kbb. I do feel that when I die I turn into my true nature which I feel is light. To me personality does not survive death. Souls are eternal and I feel the universe is eternal and God is the word we use to describe it.
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| 1/16/2017 2:58:50 PM |
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asanb
Sanbornton, NH
61, joined Jul. 2012
online now!
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"If you can't grasp that God is an "eternal, infinite, true, good, and beautiful personality" that you can fellowship with and experience within the depth of your soul and not a mindless impersonal it, force or energy that could care less about your conduct in this life or in the next that's your PROBLEM. What are you striving to become like, fyathyrio? An impersonal it? Or a divine loving and caring personality?"
This Characterization of God that Is not a "personality " is full of assumptions and baseless conjecture.
What if God was an "impersonal" sea of love, or an "impersonal" knower of all knowledge,
It seems that you ( and the Urantia writers) need to define God in certain ways to fit Your need for "fellowship", supervision, and inspiration.
How convenient that God can be crafted to accommodate our needs.
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| 1/16/2017 3:10:32 PM |
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asanb
Sanbornton, NH
61, joined Jul. 2012
online now!
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It is also true that when God wants to inspire humanity, He comes as a Man in whom the light is made manifest.
God messenger to man is always a man. we know them by multiple names; Jesus, Mohamed, B'Hulla, Kabir, Nanaak, etc.
So on this physical plane of existence, you are correct, KB, God is a personality.
But those personalities that come to liberate the souls from this place characterise God sometimes as the Father, and sometimes as the Sat Parush, Alak, and Agam.and other terms that are less a personification. The Anarag Sagar is "the ocean of Love"
Mostly they point to the fact that God lives in the heart of the devoted.
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| 1/16/2017 3:24:04 PM |
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asanb
Sanbornton, NH
61, joined Jul. 2012
online now!
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"All scriptures that are available to us speak of the unavoidable necessity, I would say, of the existence of a Master or a Guru or a Saint. This is no new subject. Even in the old days when the Masters came on the scene, this question was considered to be very important. Guru Nanak took four trips: one to the North, to the Himalayas; one to the East, to Burma and China; the third to the South, to Ceylon; and the fourth to the West, Persia, Arabia, Jerusalem, Egypt. When he went to the Himalayas, the Siddhas put a question to him: "Who is your Guru?" and he told them that "Shabd is my Guru." Do you know what is meant by "Shabd"? God is Ashabd, Wordless, Nameless; when It came into expression, It was called "Word," It was called Shabd, It was called Naam or Name. So he said, "My Guru is Shabd - the God-into-Expression Power is my Guru. God is my Guru, and He will lead me into the Absolute God."
The tenth Guru refers to his past lives - which very few Saints have done. He said, "I was undergoing great penances, great meditations - ultimately I realized that God was within me and I in Him. God ordered me to go to the world. I told Him I did not want to come back." Who is ready to leave that blissful state and come to the world? You see, when the Masters come, they are ordered to come. Nobody would like to leave that place of permanent peace and joy to come down. ... "But God ordered me, All right, you go." "What for shall I go?" And He said, "I have sent so many before; they all gave out their message, of course, but ultimately they asked all to worship them." (We worship the incarnations, you know. Only a few Masters who were sent by God, you might say, gave out: "My Father has sent me." Kabir said, "I am the messenger of God, I was sent by Him to communicate the message He has sent; He remains contacted with me." See?) And the tenth Guru says, "I submitted to His will and pleasure." And he came here and said, "Do you know who I am? I am the servant of all of you. I am no more than that - a man like you. Of course, God has sent me." Then what you want? He said, "Worship God and God alone." Then, because it has become the custom, the common people began to praise him, as they did with all those sent by God, you see. And they forget the Name of God. So he put a great admonition: "Whosoever shall call me God will go to Hell."
http://www.ruhanisatsangusa.org/giftof.htm
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fyathyrio
Savannah, GA
48, joined Nov. 2009
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I am on the path home (Godward) but sadly you are not. You are not because you don't believe God is a personality. And were that true which it is not but were it true where is your home, asanb?
Quote from kbb
You would think that at the age of 76 that kbb had attained enough wisdom not to say something like this. It directly contradicts his claim of being on the path.
A HINDU PROVERB
There are hundreds of paths up the mountain, all leading in the same direction, so it does not matter which path you take. The only one wasting time is the one running around the mountain, telling everyone that their path is wrong.
Please consider that kbb...
[Edited 1/16/2017 4:03:51 PM ]
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kb2222
Jacksonville, FL
76, joined Apr. 2011
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I am on the path home (Godward) but sadly you are not. You are not because you don't believe God is a personality. And were that true which it is not but were it true where is your home, asanb?
Quote from kbb
You would think that at the age of 76 that kbb had attained enough wisdom not to say something like this. It directly contradicts his claim of being on the path.
A HINDU PROVERB
There are hundreds of paths up the mountain, all leading in the same direction, so it does not matter which path you take. The only one wasting time is the one running around the mountain, telling everyone that their path is wrong.
Please consider that kbb...
I don't recall asanb answering that question but if he did go ahead an tell me where is his home. From what you say, fyathyrio, your personality ceases to exist at death and you "turn into your true nature which is light." In believing this are you saying when death overtakes you that's the end of your existence except as light?
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| 1/16/2017 5:09:40 PM |
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fyathyrio
Savannah, GA
48, joined Nov. 2009
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Living
In
God's
Hallowed
Time.....
That's right!
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| 1/16/2017 5:25:28 PM |
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kb2222
Jacksonville, FL
76, joined Apr. 2011
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What's that mean? That's not a coherent answer to my question. Try again.
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| 1/16/2017 5:49:41 PM |
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fyathyrio
Savannah, GA
48, joined Nov. 2009
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What's that mean? That's not a coherent answer to my question. Try again.
It is just an acronym, but I though I answered your question.
I said "that's right"
[Edited 1/16/2017 5:51:08 PM ]
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| 1/16/2017 6:07:09 PM |
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kb2222
Jacksonville, FL
76, joined Apr. 2011
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Frankly, in my considered opinion you are one screwed up individual not to desire personality continuity after death.
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| 1/16/2017 6:50:35 PM |
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fyathyrio
Savannah, GA
48, joined Nov. 2009
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Frankly, in my considered opinion you are one screwed up individual not to desire personality continuity after death.
Well that is more a reflection of you than me kbb.....
If your opinion held any value for me I might be offended.
It sounds like you want to remain who you are now even in the afterlife.
I don't know what happens after I die, but I just feel like who I am now is not the whole picture so, the idea that I would be the same person/personality while possible doesn't seem probable. I feel that it would be more grand if you will.
I believe in reincarnation do you?
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| 1/16/2017 6:56:44 PM |
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cupocheer
Assumption, IL
68, joined May. 2010
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No.
I believe in eternal life.
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