Two misunderstandings Protestants tend to have about Catholicism

1/12/2017 12:51:57 AM	Two misunderstandings Protestants tend to have about Catholicism
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 65, joined Feb. 2008	1. Protestants tend to overestimate the Catholic enmphasis on Mary. They see Catholics reciting their rosaries, with its fifty Hail Marys, and they assume Mary is the chief focus for Catholics. They don't understand that the rosary is a sideshow, so to speak, and that the main event, so to speak, is the Mass, with its emphasis on Nesus' sacrifice for us poor sinners, and Jesus' Body and Blood. 2. Protestants tend to underestimate Jesus in the Holy Eucharist, and how much that means to Catholics. Meet singles at DateHookup.dating, we're 100% free! Join now!
1/12/2017 8:38:10 AM	Two misunderstandings Protestants tend to have about Catholicism
isna_la_wica Brantford, ON 63, joined Mar. 2012	Quote from ludlowlowell: 1. Protestants tend to overestimate the Catholic enmphasis on Mary. They see Catholics reciting their rosaries, with its fifty Hail Marys, and they assume Mary is the chief focus for Catholics. They don't understand that the rosary is a sideshow, so to speak, and that the main event, so to speak, is the Mass, with its emphasis on Nesus' sacrifice for us poor sinners, and Jesus' Body and Blood. Well there are Catholics and then there is you. I would say, most Protestants underestimate Mary, and Catholics over do it a bit, when I am talking to Catholics that is. Talking to a dogmatic and judgmental person like you though, then I would not say that. 2. Protestants tend to underestimate Jesus in the Holy Eucharist, and how much that means to Catholics. And again, I would have the same response in regards to this question. I do not believe that the Eucharist is simply "symbolic". How ever fall short of the claims by Catholics that it is blood and flesh. My reasoning is this: What is spirit, is not just symbolic. It is "real" And in this "age" Christ is not with us in physical form, and comes to us as Spirit. And I believe that the Eucherist is a union with Christ, and there is no difference between what is physical and what is spiritual when it comes to meeting Christ. So one side falls short and diminishes how real the Holy Spirit is by saying its "just symbolic". But the other side, also diminishes how real the Holy Spirit is, by insisting we can only meet Christ in a "physical way". Ironic in a way, I always had trouble getting that through to the non Trinitarian and very dogmatic anti Catholic on this place, and also to one like you. ( Not other Catholics though, I have talked to a priest who helps out at a dinner we sponsor for the homeless.and he actually understood what I was saying}. But its ironic in that, a fanatic and anti Protestant like your self, diminishes what the Holy Spirit is, in the very same way the anti Catholic and anti trinitarian`s do. I use this verse to validate what I believe in regards to the Eucharist. 1 John 5:6-7Amplified Bible (AMP) 6 This is He who came through water and blood [His baptism and death], Jesus Christ—not by the water only, but by the water and the blood. It is the [Holy] Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. [He is the essence and origin of truth itself.] 7 For there are three witnesses: Pity, its a great topic really, and one I normally enjoy talking about with Catholics. But know exactly what will follow with the likes of you.
1/12/2017 8:47:41 AM	Two misunderstandings Protestants tend to have about Catholicism
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 65, joined Feb. 2008	Quote from isna_la_wica: And again, I would have the same response in regards to this question. I do not believe that the Eucharist is simply "symbolic". How ever fall short of the claims by Catholics that it is blood and flesh. My reasoning is this: What is spirit, is not just symbolic. It is "real" And in this "age" Christ is not with us in physical form, and comes to us as Spirit. And I believe that the Eucherist is a union with Christ, and there is no difference between what is physical and what is spiritual when it comes to meeting Christ. So one side falls short and diminishes how real the Holy Spirit is by saying its "just symbolic". But the other side, also diminishes how real the Holy Spirit is, by insisting we can only meet Christ in a "physical way". Ironic in a way, I always had trouble getting that through to the non Trinitarian and very dogmatic anti Catholic on this place, and also to one like you. ( Not other Catholics though, I have talked to a priest who helps out at a dinner we sponsor for the homeless.and he actually understood what I was saying}. But its ironic in that, a fanatic and anti Protestant like your self, diminishes what the Holy Spirit is, in the very same way the anti Catholic and anti trinitarian`s do. I use this verse to validate what I believe in regards to the Eucharist. 1 John 5:6-7Amplified Bible (AMP) 6 This is He who came through water and blood [His baptism and death], Jesus Christ—not by the water only, but by the water and the blood. It is the [Holy] Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. [He is the essence and origin of truth itself.] 7 For there are three witnesses: Pity, its a great topic really, and one I normally enjoy talking about with Catholics. But know exactly what will follow with the likes of you. Isna's personal opinion or the constant teaching of the Church Jesus founded....Isna's opinion...The Church Jesus founded...I think I'll go with the Church Jesus founded.
1/12/2017 9:06:04 AM	Two misunderstandings Protestants tend to have about Catholicism
kb2222 Jacksonville, FL 77, joined Apr. 2011 online now!	Quote from ludlowlowell: In fact, the more we venerate Mary as the mother of God the more we realize that Jesus is God. How is that so? Mary was the mother of Jesus the man not the mother of God and you claiming this is nothing but a attempt to elevate Mary to a false position of giving birth to Deity.
1/12/2017 9:38:55 AM	Two misunderstandings Protestants tend to have about Catholicism
a_nubian Columbus, OH 54, joined Jan. 2011 online now!	Quote from ludlowlowell: 1. Protestants tend to overestimate the Catholic enmphasis on Mary. They see Catholics reciting their rosaries, with its fifty Hail Marys, and they assume Mary is the chief focus for Catholics. They don't understand that the rosary is a sideshow, so to speak, and that the main event, so to speak, is the Mass, with its emphasis on Nesus' sacrifice for us poor sinners, and Jesus' Body and Blood. 2. Protestants tend to underestimate Jesus in the Holy Eucharist, and how much that means to Catholics. 1. Fact: Nothing in Scripture mandates Marian devotions. "Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and difficulties, until they are led into their blessed home." (Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, 62) RE: Mass The belief of transubstantiation is unbibical. 2. The belief in the Eucharist places emphasis on the literal consumption as a means of spiritual subsidence.
1/12/2017 9:47:00 AM	Two misunderstandings Protestants tend to have about Catholicism
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 65, joined Feb. 2008	Nubian, as I said, Catholics don't place nearly the emphasis on Mary that Protestants think we do, and the Holy Eucharist is far more important to Catholics than Protestants imagine. By "Catholics" I am referring to people who actually believe and practice, not people who merely call themselves Catholic. The latter care nothing of Jesus, Mary, or the Eucharist.
1/12/2017 9:48:56 AM	Two misunderstandings Protestants tend to have about Catholicism
isna_la_wica Brantford, ON 63, joined Mar. 2012	Quote from ludlowlowell: Isna's personal opinion or the constant teaching of the Church Jesus founded....Isna's opinion...The Church Jesus founded...I think I'll go with the Church Jesus founded. Luds opinion verse the Bible, I think I will go with the Bible.
1/12/2017 10:01:21 AM	Two misunderstandings Protestants tend to have about Catholicism
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 65, joined Feb. 2008	My opinion? This isn't my opinion, this is the authoritative teaching of Jesus' Church. This is the basic difference between Protestantism and Catholicism. Catholics go by the teachings of the Church, which are rock solid, which, century after century, never change. Protestants say they go by the Bible, but the Bible "contains many things that are hard to understand" (2 Peter 3:16), and all Protestants can do is guess as to the meaning. This is why there are thousands of Protestant denominations, each one teaching something different than the one down the street. Don't build your spiritual house on the shifting sands of Protestantism. Build your spiritual house on the solid rock of Catholicism.
1/12/2017 10:35:31 AM	Two misunderstandings Protestants tend to have about Catholicism
kb2222 Jacksonville, FL 77, joined Apr. 2011 online now!	Quote from kb2222: How is that so? Mary was the mother of Jesus the man not the mother of God and you claiming this is nothing but a attempt to elevate Mary to a false position of giving birth to Deity.
1/12/2017 10:43:10 AM	Two misunderstandings Protestants tend to have about Catholicism
kb2222 Jacksonville, FL 77, joined Apr. 2011 online now!	Quote from ludlowlowell: My opinion? This isn't my opinion, this is the authoritative teaching of Jesus' Church. This is the basic difference between Protestantism and Catholicism. Catholics go by the teachings of the Church, which are rock solid, which, century after century, never change. Protestants say they go by the Bible, but the Bible "contains many things that are hard to understand" (2 Peter 3:16), and all Protestants can do is guess as to the meaning. This is why there are thousands of Protestant denominations, each one teaching something different than the one down the street. Don't build your spiritual house on the shifting sands of Protestantism. Build your spiritual house on the solid rock of Catholicism. Jesus at Pentecost sent into the world the Holy Spirit of Truth, the Spirit of the Son as His "Replacement Teacher" NOT any pope claiming moral and spiritual infallibility with a murderous history seeking to bind the mind of man to the book they compiled.
1/12/2017 10:51:08 AM	Two misunderstandings Protestants tend to have about Catholicism
iam_resurrected Reno, NV 47, joined Jul. 2014	I do not follow Catholicism due to the fact we all know Peter hated Rome and refused to be a part of it and Paul and Timothy are the true ambassadors of Rome. and for the Roman Catholics to claim Peter is first pope is WRONG. it is wrong because Peter had no desire to be a part of Rome and her salvation so Peter never should be first ambassador (pope) it should be Paul or timothy. if there was a TRUTH to the system and patriarchy of the Catholic regime it should had been Christ Jesus as first pope. since he after all is the example by which we live by. not by peter and the other cast but by Christ. why Christ. because Peter fashioned his life after Christ just like all true believers do. so, to pray to someone who fashions themselves as another is futile when all that wasted time could had been towards the one they fashioned themselves for.
1/12/2017 10:52:24 AM	Two misunderstandings Protestants tend to have about Catholicism
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 65, joined Feb. 2008	Jesus did indeed send the Joly Spirit to the infant Catholic Church at Pentecost.
1/12/2017 11:01:38 AM	Two misunderstandings Protestants tend to have about Catholicism
iam_resurrected Reno, NV 47, joined Jul. 2014	Quote from ludlowlowell: Jesus did indeed send the Joly Spirit to the infant Catholic Church at Pentecost. if that is the case then Rome should be in Jerusalem. because Rome had no idea about any of it until it was brought to them by Paul and Timothy. and since Rome named it Catholic and created the belief then it is factually wrong. [Edited 1/12/2017 11:02:17 AM ]
1/12/2017 11:04:26 AM	Two misunderstandings Protestants tend to have about Catholicism
shylywilling Medford, OR 56, joined Jan. 2008	Quote from ludlowlowell: My opinion? This isn't my opinion, this is the authoritative teaching of Jesus' Church. This is the basic difference between Protestantism and Catholicism. Catholics go by the teachings of the Church, which are rock solid, which, century after century, never change. Protestants say they go by the Bible, but the Bible "contains many things that are hard to understand" (2 Peter 3:16), and all Protestants can do is guess as to the meaning. This is why there are thousands of Protestant denominations, each one teaching something different than the one down the street. Don't build your spiritual house on the shifting sands of Protestantism. Build your spiritual house on the solid rock of Catholicism. LOL. I rather think the thousands are the result of it being easy to discern hypocrisy and deceit even if the evidence is elusive. Because the catholic church is founded on treachery and deceit there will always be an innate and instinctive resistance to it's narrative and unfortunately or naturally, many would continue the same fatal flawed interpretation not having been party to the true facts and or obstructed from them by those in authority and possession of the leverage and power scripture was meant to prevent by educating us to it's perils.
1/12/2017 11:10:46 AM	Two misunderstandings Protestants tend to have about Catholicism
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 65, joined Feb. 2008	Shy, the Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ. How is that treachery and deceit?
1/12/2017 11:41:14 AM	Two misunderstandings Protestants tend to have about Catholicism
kb2222 Jacksonville, FL 77, joined Apr. 2011 online now!	You are such a pathetic liar, Ludlow. [Edited 1/12/2017 11:41:41 AM ]
1/12/2017 10:33:57 PM	Two misunderstandings Protestants tend to have about Catholicism
a_nubian Columbus, OH 54, joined Jan. 2011 online now!	Quote from ludlowlowell: Nubian, as I said, Catholics don't place nearly the emphasis on Mary that Protestants think we do, and the Holy Eucharist is far more important to Catholics than Protestants imagine. By "Catholics" I am referring to people who actually believe and practice, not people who merely call themselves Catholic. The latter care nothing of Jesus, Mary, or the Eucharist. Lud "As St. Irenaeus says, "Being obedient she became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race."141 From: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p122a3p2.htm So is Mary the cause of Salvation or Jesus? To me it comes across as salvation through Mary. 508 "From among the descendants of Eve, God chose the Virgin Mary to be the mother of his Son. "Full of grace", Mary is "the most excellent fruit of redemption" (SC 103): from the first instant of her conception, she was totally preserved from the stain of original sin and she remained pure from all personal sin throughout her life." Bible If this the case then why did Mary say, "And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour". (Luke 1:47) If one sins then they are in need of a Savior. If Mary was without sin (sinless), she would have no need of a Savior. Which is it? Popes: “God has committed to her the treasury of all good things, in order that everyone may know that through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation. For this is his will, that we obtain everything through Mary.” (Pius IX: Encycl., Ubi primum, February 2, 1849.) — [p. 12, number 12] “O Virgin most holy, none abounds in the knowledge of God except through thee; none, O Mother of God, obtains salvation except through thee, none receives a gift from the throne of mercy except through thee.” (Leo XIII: Encycl., Adiutricem populi, September 5, 1895.) — [p. 12, no. 13] “With equal truth it may be said that of the great treasury of all graces given to us by Our Lord—for grace and truth came by Jesus Christ—nothing comes to us except through Mary’s mediation, for such is God’s Will. Thus, as no man goes to the Father but by the Son, so no one goes to Christ except through his mother.” (Leo XIII, Encycl., Octobri mense, September 22, 1891.) — [pp. 13,14, no. 19] It stands to reason if Mary is able to Save us then she would be worthy of worship. But the Bible doesn't teach that. I have provided what your Popes' and archive states via the Vatican. It calls for Marian Devotion.
1/12/2017 11:15:19 PM	Two misunderstandings Protestants tend to have about Catholicism
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 65, joined Feb. 2008	Jesus came to earth by Mary, so salvation comes through Mary. No Mary, no Jesus. That's what all that stuff means. None of that means that Mary outranks Jesus---the Catholic Church places great emphasis on the divinity of Christ---Jesus is God Incarnate but Mary is just a human being. Mary was sinless her whole life long, and was free from original sin from the moment of her conception. But Jesus is still her Savior. How? Because God made her free from sin from the grace Jesus obtained for her, and for all of His true followers, on the cross. Retroactive grace---the same way people who lived before the time of Christ received grace. Remember all time is present to God. Jesus died on the cross, and from His Precious Blood she was saved, and filled with grace. Retroactively.
1/13/2017 4:47:06 AM	Two misunderstandings Protestants tend to have about Catholicism
a_nubian Columbus, OH 54, joined Jan. 2011 online now!	Lud: Protestants tend to overestimate the Catholic enmphasis on Mary. Jesus came to earth by Mary, so salvation comes through Mary. No Mary, no Jesus. That's what all that stuff means. None of that means that Mary outranks Jesus---the Catholic Church places great emphasis on the divinity of Christ---Jesus is God Incarnate but Mary is just a human being. No Mary, no Jesus? Before Abraham was "I AM". For the purpose of Redemption; Jesus, being Divine, took on human form. The outranking of Jesus. Lud, "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:" Your church places Mary on par with Jesus, for it is through her that "all Salvation" is obtain. So she being just a human being does not qualifier Mary as a Co-Redemptrix. So the issue for me is not an overestimate that we Protestants have regarding Mary; it's an unbiblical assumption that Mary is a Co-Redemptrix and an Advocate, being equal to God. The Catholic Church will say Mary is the Mother of God; justifying Marian Devotion. Mary, was just the earthly mother of the human Jesus. That was it.
1/13/2017 5:19:28 AM	Two misunderstandings Protestants tend to have about Catholicism
a_nubian Columbus, OH 54, joined Jan. 2011 online now!	Lud Mary was sinless her whole life long, and was free from original sin from the moment of her conception. But Jesus is still her Savior. How? Because God made her free from sin from the grace Jesus obtained for her, and for all of His true followers, on the cross. Retroactive grace---the same way people who lived before the time of Christ received grace. Remember all time is present to God. Jesus died on the cross, and from His Precious Blood she was saved, and filled with grace. Retroactively. It's a creative explanation but not founded in biblical truth. "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" Rom 3:23 Nothing in Scripture says Mary was made free of sin. Nothing in Scripture says Mary lived a sinless life.
1/13/2017 7:01:40 AM	Two misunderstandings Protestants tend to have about Catholicism
looptex1 Chatsworth, GA 49, joined Jun. 2008	Quote from ludlowlowell: Jesus came to earth by Mary, so salvation comes through Mary. No Mary, no Jesus. That's what all that stuff means. None of that means that Mary outranks Jesus---the Catholic Church places great emphasis on the divinity of Christ---Jesus is God Incarnate but Mary is just a human being. Mary was sinless her whole life long, and was free from original sin from the moment of her conception. But Jesus is still her Savior. How? Because God made her free from sin from the grace Jesus obtained for her, and for all of His true followers, on the cross. Retroactive grace---the same way people who lived before the time of Christ received grace. Remember all time is present to God. Jesus died on the cross, and from His Precious Blood she was saved, and filled with grace. Retroactively. What? You mean the grace Jesus obtained for Mary made her sin free, but the rest of man has to cooperate with that grace just to be saved? I guess Mary got a different grace then the rest of the world... But, towards your opening statement. I suppose how many over exaggerate your veneration to mary, is just like how people over exaggerate osas saying it's a license to sin. .
1/13/2017 8:26:18 AM	Two misunderstandings Protestants tend to have about Catholicism
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 65, joined Feb. 2008	Mary did get a grace different from the rest of the world. She was free from all stain of original sin from the moment of her conception? Why? Because God fore-knew that Jesus would be living in her womb for nine months, and it would not have been fitting for Jesus, the Incarnate Son of God, Who of course also was free from all stain of original sin, to be living that close to sin that long. So why couldn't God just made us all that way? Because most of us would have puffed up with pride at such a privilege, as Adam and Eve did.
1/13/2017 8:55:41 AM	Two misunderstandings Protestants tend to have about Catholicism
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 65, joined Feb. 2008	Quote from a_nubian: Lud: Protestants tend to overestimate the Catholic enmphasis on Mary. Jesus came to earth by Mary, so salvation comes through Mary. No Mary, no Jesus. That's what all that stuff means. None of that means that Mary outranks Jesus---the Catholic Church places great emphasis on the divinity of Christ---Jesus is God Incarnate but Mary is just a human being. No Mary, no Jesus? Before Abraham was "I AM". For the purpose of Redemption; Jesus, being Divine, took on human form. The outranking of Jesus. Lud, "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:" Your church places Mary on par with Jesus, for it is through her that "all Salvation" is obtain. So she being just a human being does not qualifier Mary as a Co-Redemptrix. So the issue for me is not an overestimate that we Protestants have regarding Mary; it's an unbiblical assumption that Mary is a Co-Redemptrix and an Advocate, being equal to God. The Catholic Church will say Mary is the Mother of God; justifying Marian Devotion. Mary, was just the earthly mother of the human Jesus. That was it. When I said no Mary,no Jesus, I meant Jesus the man, Jesus in His human nature. Of course the Son of God existed from all eternity, long before Mary, long before there were any humans. Remember though that when Jesus suffered and died on the cross He suffered in His human nature only---God is incapable of suffering or dying. God did not force Mary to be the mother of Jesus. Mary could have said no to the angel, without sinning, and God could have created another young woman without stain of original sin, and offered her the privilege. Had choice #2 said no, a third woman could have been picked, etc. By agreeing to be the mother of tge Savior, Mary let herself in for a lot of suffering, as the prophet Simeon prophesied when Jesus was presented in the temple as a baby. And Mary certainly did. She stood by, while most of the apostles fled, while her dear Son was tortued and killed. Mary, who, since she was sinless, had more love for people in her heart than anyone else except Jesus Himself, and loved her Son more than any mother in history, and you can imagine the pain she went through. According to many of the saints, Mary suffered more in her soul than all the martyrs in their bodies put together. But Jesus is the Savior, not Mary, and Jesus is the Incarnate Son of God and Mary is just a human being, that much of what you guys are saying is true.
1/13/2017 10:48:34 AM	Two misunderstandings Protestants tend to have about Catholicism
kb2222 Jacksonville, FL 77, joined Apr. 2011 online now!	Quote from ludlowlowell: According to many of the saints, Mary suffered more in her soul than all the martyrs in their bodies put together. BS. If the crucifixion was all Gods plan Mary should have had faith in her soul instead of sorrow. But Jesus is the Savior, not Mary, and Jesus is the Incarnate Son of God and Mary is just a human being, that much of what you guys are saying is true. Then why do you keep on calling Mary the "mother of God" and say "salvation comes through Mary" when you know "Mary is just a human being"?
1/13/2017 11:25:34 AM	Two misunderstandings Protestants tend to have about Catholicism
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 65, joined Feb. 2008	KB, according to your profile you do have children. If ine of them were tortued and killed before your very eyes, and you could do nothing to help him or her, would your soul be in great pain, or would you just yawn and shrug and say, oh well, I have faith that all this will come out for good? What if the child was comletely innocent? What if you were completely free of sin, such that your heart had more love in it than the average parent, even the average good parent? Do you now have an inkling to the depths of Mary's suffering? Our Lady of Sorrows, pray for us.
1/13/2017 11:51:05 AM	Two misunderstandings Protestants tend to have about Catholicism
kb2222 Jacksonville, FL 77, joined Apr. 2011 online now!	I don't think Mary had anymore "mental anguish" than any other mother who witnesses a torturous death of a son or daughter.
1/13/2017 12:03:29 PM	Two misunderstandings Protestants tend to have about Catholicism
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 65, joined Feb. 2008	Actually, she did, KB. Stop and think about it---her Son wasn't just any Son, He was the greatest son who ever lived, therefore that much more lovable. Her heart was pure and free from sin, so she had more capacity for love and empathy. She grieved, not just because Jesus was her Son, but because He was her Savior, and the world's Savior. She grieved because she loved God, and God Incarnate was being insulted, mocked, tortued, and killed. Add all that up and that's some powerful grief.
1/13/2017 12:08:42 PM	Two misunderstandings Protestants tend to have about Catholicism
kb2222 Jacksonville, FL 77, joined Apr. 2011 online now!	BUT, according to you and your church it was all Gods plan which means it was God himself that inflicted the BS sorrow you spew out, right, Ludlow?
1/13/2017 12:18:47 PM	Two misunderstandings Protestants tend to have about Catholicism
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 65, joined Feb. 2008	Sorrow is the natural result of sin and the sinless Jesus and Mary shared in that sorrow, on our behalf. See how good Jesus and Mary are? [Edited 1/13/2017 12:19:17 PM ]
1/13/2017 12:24:31 PM	Two misunderstandings Protestants tend to have about Catholicism
cupocheer Assumption, IL 68, joined May. 2010	Quote from ludlowlowell: Sorrow is the natural result of sin and the sinless Jesus and Mary shared in that sorrow, on our behalf. See how good Jesus and Mary are? LUD -- Jesus and Mary were born into life as humans. This, they were both born into sin. Had Jesus not been born into sin then He would have had no need of baptism by the Holy Spirit of God. No matter how you spice and dive the facts, LUD, you remain blind to Gods truths.
1/13/2017 12:30:03 PM	Two misunderstandings Protestants tend to have about Catholicism
shylywilling Medford, OR 56, joined Jan. 2008	Quote from cupocheer: LUD -- Jesus and Mary were born into life as humans. This, they were both born into sin. Had Jesus not been born into sin then He would have had no need of baptism by the Holy Spirit of God. No matter how you spice and dive the facts, LUD, you remain blind to Gods truths. This is where I would offer the quip about what a nasty web we weave but I like one of my own quips better. I once tried on the cloak of deceit but the threads of malice wore my self out.
1/13/2017 12:40:55 PM	Two misunderstandings Protestants tend to have about Catholicism
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 65, joined Feb. 2008	Cupocheer, I know you don't intend it, I know you love Jesus, but it is a blasphemy to say Jesus was born into sin. God can't be sin, have sin, gestate in a mother who has sin, or commit sin. It's impossible. If you want a scripture verse to that effect see Hebrews 4:15. Jesus was never baptized with the Holy Spirit. John's symbolic baptism of repentance (much different than the Baptism Jesus would later command) made no mention of the Holy Spirit---see Acts 19:1-6. Jesus of course had no sins to repent of, and we know John did not want to baptize Jesus for that very reason, but Jesus insisted on being baptized. Why? I honestly don't know, but I do know Jesus had no sin, personal or inherited. [Edited 1/13/2017 12:41:39 PM ]
1/13/2017 12:44:52 PM	Two misunderstandings Protestants tend to have about Catholicism
kb2222 Jacksonville, FL 77, joined Apr. 2011 online now!	It is absurd to think that just being born a human makes one a sinner. Imperfect yes. Sinner no. There is no sin if there is no consciousness of wrongdoing. It is evil to see sin where there is no sin.
1/13/2017 12:59:55 PM	Two misunderstandings Protestants tend to have about Catholicism
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 65, joined Feb. 2008	Quote from kb2222: It is absurd to think that just being born a human makes one a sinner. Imperfect yes. Sinner no. There is no sin if there is no consciousness of wrongdoing. It is evil to see sin where there is no sin. That holds true for personal sins, and that's why unbaptized babies don't go to Hell. But every person in the human race, except Adam, Eve, Jesus, and Mary were born with the EFFECTS of Adam and Eve's original sin. That is why human beings are born with such blindness of mind and such strong inclination to sin. It's why God hides His face from us (rare exceptions notwithstanding). It's why God makes us work "by the sweat of our brow". It's why there are insects and hsrmful bacteria in the world, and why people, including babies, get sick (it is a Catholic doctrine that Jesus and Mary never got sick and couldn't get sick), and why some babies are born with defects. All of these are effects---the key word here is effects---of tge son of Adam and Eve. Sin is a horrible thing and whenever we sin, we hurt somebody somewhere. That's precisely why sin IS so horrible. [Edited 1/13/2017 1:00:33 PM ]
1/13/2017 1:16:36 PM	Two misunderstandings Protestants tend to have about Catholicism
kb2222 Jacksonville, FL 77, joined Apr. 2011 online now!	Ludlow, it is absurd to think that just being born a human makes one a sinner. Imperfect yes. Sinner no. There is no sin if there is no consciousness of wrongdoing. It is evil to see sin where there is no sin. It is also absurd for you to assert God ordered man to slaughter untold thousands of animals for centuries and to horribly kill Jesus "to show us how horrible sin is." You are corrupt and blasphemous, Ludlow.
1/13/2017 1:34:57 PM	Two misunderstandings Protestants tend to have about Catholicism
shylywilling Medford, OR 56, joined Jan. 2008	Quote from ludlowlowell: Cupocheer, I know you don't intend it, I know you love Jesus, but it is a blasphemy to say Jesus was born into sin. God can't be sin, have sin, gestate in a mother who has sin, or commit sin. It's impossible. If you want a scripture verse to that effect see Hebrews 4:15. Jesus was never baptized with the Holy Spirit. John's symbolic baptism of repentance (much different than the Baptism Jesus would later command) made no mention of the Holy Spirit---see Acts 19:1-6. Jesus of course had no sins to repent of, and we know John did not want to baptize Jesus for that very reason, but Jesus insisted on being baptized. Why? I honestly don't know, but I do know Jesus had no sin, personal or inherited. Good post Lud. I especially found the beginning of the last sentence amazing for two reasons. 1st IDK is about the most honest thing ever to be spoken. 2nd With all the Vatican's apparent attention to ritual, one would think that perhaps one of the most ritualistic acts recorded of Jesus would be a topic of such interest to the Vatican that even the slightest enthusiast would be equipped with a rich plethora of blah blah blah to offer in interpreted, (prepared and or adulterated), explanations and etc.. I am inclined to think it a ritual symbolic of one's commitment to ending one's life of material interests and birthing forth a new life dedicated to LORD God, spirit, and fellow man. Of course Jesus, in his symbolic form of a man would offer the example for men to follow. We birth from the nurturing waters of life. Of course, since the Vatican is founded by private property capitalists, it wouldn't seem to further the cunning treachery to spotlight the ceremony to commensurate one's desire and commitment to end one's material interests and begin a dedicated life to LORD God and communism/Christianity.
1/13/2017 1:51:21 PM	Two misunderstandings Protestants tend to have about Catholicism
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 65, joined Feb. 2008	Shy, you might be right, and probably are, that Jesus wanted to be baptized to show His dedication to His Father in Heaven, and His Father's mission for Him. Maybe also it was Jesus' way of putting His stamp of approval on John's ministry. Jesus' baptism marked the beginning of Jesus' public teaching ministry, and His baptism was needed to show that, perhaps. Yes, the Catholic Church does put emphasis on ritual, as did the Jews of Old Testament, and every one of the Church's seven chief rituals, the sacraments, was instituted by Jesus Himself. And you're right about the Catholic Church being founded by a capitalist---it was founded by that same Jesus, Who was a capitalist in that He owned His Own carpentry business.
1/13/2017 1:53:58 PM	Two misunderstandings Protestants tend to have about Catholicism
kb2222 Jacksonville, FL 77, joined Apr. 2011 online now!
1/17/2017 11:07:06 AM	Two misunderstandings Protestants tend to have about Catholicism
kb2222 Jacksonville, FL 77, joined Apr. 2011 online now!	Quote from kb2222: Ludlow, it is absurd to think that just being born a human makes one a sinner. Imperfect yes. Sinner no. There is no sin if there is no consciousness of wrongdoing. It is evil to see sin where there is no sin. It is also absurd for you to assert God ordered man to slaughter untold thousands of animals for centuries and to horribly kill Jesus "to show us how horrible sin is." You are corrupt and blasphemous, Ludlow.
1/17/2017 6:47:48 PM	Two misunderstandings Protestants tend to have about Catholicism
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 65, joined Feb. 2008	We are not born sinners, we are born with the EFFECTS of original sin.
1/17/2017 7:24:39 PM	Two misunderstandings Protestants tend to have about Catholicism
kb2222 Jacksonville, FL 77, joined Apr. 2011 online now!	And you who asserts that God ordered man to slaughter untold thousands of animals for centuries and to horribly kill Jesus "to show us how horrible sin is" say the "EFFECTS of original sin" are what, Ludlow?
1/17/2017 7:24:44 PM	Two misunderstandings Protestants tend to have about Catholicism
cupocheer Assumption, IL 68, joined May. 2010
1/18/2017 1:09:23 PM	Two misunderstandings Protestants tend to have about Catholicism
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 65, joined Feb. 2008	Quote from kb2222: And you who asserts that God ordered man to slaughter untold thousands of animals for centuries and to horribly kill Jesus "to show us how horrible sin is" say the "EFFECTS of original sin" are what, Ludlow? Some of the effects of original sin: being born without the state of grace, a strong inclination to sin, especially for sins of the flesh (concupiscence), darkness of mind, sickness, physical deformities, physical death. Baptism, whether to a baby or an adult, restores the state of grace but does not remove the other effects of original sin. After the General Resurrection, after Jesus returns, the glorified bodies of the saved will have no effect of original sin. Sometimes it happens that a baby born to a mother addicted to a drug will be born addicted to the same drug. Has the baby sinned? Could the baby be arrested for possession of drugs? No, of course not. But the baby inherited the EFFECTS of the mother's sin. Perhaps that analogy will help explain the concept of original sin.
1/18/2017 6:08:20 PM	Two misunderstandings Protestants tend to have about Catholicism
followjesusonly Kingman, AZ 75, joined May. 2012	*
1/18/2017 6:13:34 PM	Two misunderstandings Protestants tend to have about Catholicism
cupocheer Assumption, IL 68, joined May. 2010	don't you people pay attention?
1/24/2017 12:08:58 PM	Two misunderstandings Protestants tend to have about Catholicism
shylywilling Medford, OR 56, joined Jan. 2008	Chuckle. Jesus aborted his life as a capitalist before it really began. I have no doubt that he was a faithful son and so as was the custom I am sure he performed the duties diligently which surely included participation in Joseph's carpentry activities. However, I am also just as sure of Jesus' diligence to LORD God and the scriptural evidence shows that he aborted his parents in favor of service to LORD God as soon as was customarily appropriate, around the age of puberty. Naturally, to remain in honor of his parents whom were likely participating in practices contrary to LORD God Jesus had to simply walk away and abort the life as a participating son. Private property is the forbidden fruit and capitalism is the toxic and addictive wine that fatally contradicts civility and our birth as one life, infant of LORD God.
1/24/2017 12:49:21 PM	Two misunderstandings Protestants tend to have about Catholicism
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 65, joined Feb. 2008	So Shy, you're saying that Jesus was a repentant sinner?
1/24/2017 6:59:50 PM	Two misunderstandings Protestants tend to have about Catholicism
indianadave1951 Mishawaka, IN 66, joined Dec. 2010	Quote from ludlowlowell: 1. Protestants tend to overestimate the Catholic enmphasis on Mary. There's a European travel program on PBS that I enjoy watching. Among the many cultural features that are shown are Church's and Church artwork. The majority of artwork found in Church's in Spain, Italy and France center on Mary first and secondly saints. At the end of programs featuring these countries it leaves me with the impression that Mary and saints are significantly more important to Roman Catholics than Jesus. The old saying "actions speak louder than words" would say Mary is the center of Roman Catholic Church life as shown in their Church artwork.
1/24/2017 8:02:17 PM	Two misunderstandings Protestants tend to have about Catholicism
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 65, joined Feb. 2008	Attend a Mass sometimes, Dave, or read the text of the Mass online. You will see that in the Mass, the chief form of eorship in the Catholic Church, something held every day in most parishes, the emphasis is on Jesus, not Mary, and Jesus' Body and Blood, broken and shed for our salvation. Mary is barely mentioned. In the Catholic belief system, Jesus is believed to be both God and man. He has a dual nature, divine and human. Mary is believed to be human only.
1/24/2017 9:20:20 PM	Two misunderstandings Protestants tend to have about Catholicism
cupocheer Assumption, IL 68, joined May. 2010	LUD, isn't it a fact that a person can attend a Catholic mass anywhere in the world on any given day and that mass is the same in every Catholic mass on that day? Would you call thatbtype teaching 'God inspired', LUD?
1/24/2017 10:37:50 PM	Two misunderstandings Protestants tend to have about Catholicism
followjesusonly Kingman, AZ 75, joined May. 2012	Quote from indianadave1951: There's a European travel program on PBS that I enjoy watching. Among the many cultural features that are shown are Church's and Church artwork. The majority of artwork found in Church's in Spain, Italy and France center on Mary first and secondly saints. At the end of programs featuring these countries it leaves me with the impression that Mary and saints are significantly more important to Roman Catholics than Jesus. The old saying "actions speak louder than words" would say Mary is the center of Roman Catholic Church life as shown in their Church artwork. The cathlick church is all about the cathlick church, Dave. It's not about God or Jesus at all. That's just a front. And most everything they do is patterned after Mithraism.
1/24/2017 10:56:27 PM	Two misunderstandings Protestants tend to have about Catholicism
indianadave1951 Mishawaka, IN 66, joined Dec. 2010	Quote from ludlowlowell: Attend a Mass sometimes, Dave, or read the text of the Mass online. You will see that in the Mass, the chief form of eorship in the Catholic Church, something held every day in most parishes, the emphasis is on Jesus, not Mary, and Jesus' Body and Blood, broken and shed for our salvation. Mary is barely mentioned. In the Catholic belief system, Jesus is believed to be both God and man. He has a dual nature, divine and human. Mary is believed to be human only. After college I worked in Ann Arbor Michigan. I lived in the downtown area and (at the time) didn't own a car. For a short time I attended morning services at St Ann's Church. I was born and raised in South Bend Indiana which had a very large Polish/Catholic population so I've had a lot of exposure with Roman Catholic beliefs.
1/25/2017 6:08:18 AM	Two misunderstandings Protestants tend to have about Catholicism
cupocheer Assumption, IL 68, joined May. 2010	Quote from ludlowlowell: So Shy, you're saying that Jesus was a repentant sinner? Don't you, LUD? @ Dave, I, for one, appreciate your comments. Thank you for sharing. While I do not have an extensive knowledge or understanding of the Catholic belief system, I too have had some exposure to practicing Catholics.
1/25/2017 12:42:51 PM	Two misunderstandings Protestants tend to have about Catholicism
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 65, joined Feb. 2008	Shy suggests that Jesus was a capitalist (He was---He and Noseph owned their own carpentry business), and that at some point Jesus recognized ghow horrible this is, and quit. Shy is saying Jesus sinned, but later repented. Two points: one, God is not anti-business, especially not anti-small business, and two, Jesus did not, and could not, sin. Everything Jesus did was automatically right because Jesus is God, and there is no higher standard of right and wrong than God Himself. Shy, perhaps not on purpose, perhaps because he has not thought his own theories through, has committed a blasphemy here. Jesus Christ, our Blessed Savior, is the PERFECT Lamb of God.
1/25/2017 2:08:46 PM	Two misunderstandings Protestants tend to have about Catholicism
followjesusonly Kingman, AZ 75, joined May. 2012	Quote from ludlowlowell: Shy, perhaps not on purpose, perhaps because he has not thought his own theories through, has committed a blasphemy here. Jesus Christ, our Blessed Savior, is the PERFECT Lamb of God. Why do you refuse to obey Him then? Paraphrasing: "Why call ye me, 'Jesus Christ, our Blessed Savior, the PERFECT Lamb of God,' and do not the things which I say?" (Luke 6:46) Tell Jesus why.
1/25/2017 3:12:07 PM	Two misunderstandings Protestants tend to have about Catholicism
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 65, joined Feb. 2008	Why don't you, FJO? Or are you perfect in every way?
1/25/2017 6:23:55 PM	Two misunderstandings Protestants tend to have about Catholicism
followjesusonly Kingman, AZ 75, joined May. 2012	Quote from ludlowlowell: Why don't you, FJO? I do. Or are you perfect in every way? That's a non-sequitur and it's also another case of trying to throw people off the trail. What are you going to TELL Jesus when He asks you: "Why call ye me, 'Jesus Christ, our Blessed Savior, the PERFECT Lamb of God,' and do not the things which I say?" (Luke 6:46) Just say, "Jesus, the reason I call you Jesus Christ, our Blessed Savior, the PERFECT Lamb of God,' and do not the things which you say is because...." You finish it, Lud. "Jesus, the reason I call you Jesus Christ, our Blessed Savior, the PERFECT Lamb of God,' and do not the things which you say is because...the cathlick church told me to disobey you and do what they said instead." "Jesus, the reason I call you Jesus Christ, our Blessed Savior, the PERFECT Lamb of God,' and do not the things which you say is because....the cathlick church told me they were YOU and they were speaking for you when they contradicted you." "Jesus, the reason I call you Jesus Christ, our Blessed Savior, the PERFECT Lamb of God,' and do not the things which you say is because....the cathlick church told me what to do and they told me they were infallible." Or are you going to say, "But what about them, Jesus? Are they perfect in every way?" Don't you see what a childish cop out that is? You're like a rat trapped in a corner. Whether or not I'm perfect in every way has nothing to do with you willfully refusing to obey God. And that's what Jesus is going to tell you. There's no point in you bringing up anyone else's sins at your judgment. [Edited 1/25/2017 6:25:32 PM ]
1/25/2017 6:27:41 PM	Two misunderstandings Protestants tend to have about Catholicism
followjesusonly Kingman, AZ 75, joined May. 2012	Quote from ludlowlowell: My opinion? This isn't my opinion, this is the authoritative teaching of Jesus' Church. It's not Jesus' church and it only has authority if people give it authority.
1/25/2017 7:14:24 PM	Two misunderstandings Protestants tend to have about Catholicism
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 65, joined Feb. 2008	It is Jesus' Church. It was founded by Jesus. And it was Jesus Himself, Jesus, God Incarnate, Jesus, our Savior, Who gave the Church its teaching authority.
1/25/2017 9:55:16 PM	Two misunderstandings Protestants tend to have about Catholicism
followjesusonly Kingman, AZ 75, joined May. 2012	[]Quote from ludlowlowell:[/][]It is Jesus' Church. It was founded by Jesus. And it was Jesus Himself, Jesus, God Incarnate, Jesus, our Savior, Who gave the Church its teaching authority.[/] ============================================================================== These are all self serving cathlick lies, just as that Nazi friend of your sect said: The [Catholics] follow the principle that when one lies, one should lie big, and stick to it. They keep up their lies, even at the risk of looking ridiculous. -Joseph Goebbels And you do look ridiculous. Even your pope knows it. The cathlick sect was not founded by Jesus. Nor did He give any authority to it. You are a deceived deceiver, repeating lies you have been told. And why do you call Him "Jesus, God Incarnate, Jesus, our Savior," and refuse to obey Him? Your sect is the synagogue of Satan, as Jesus said.

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