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| 3/15/2017 9:31:00 PM |
Who Raised Jesus From The Dead? | Page 3 |
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brashdoc
Chehalis, WA
64, joined Aug. 2008
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(continued)John 5:15-23 The man went away & informed the Jewish leaders that Jesus was the one who had made him well. Because of this the Jews were persecuting Jesus & seeking to kill him, because these things he was doing on a sabbath [day]. His answer {to their accusation} was, "My Father is working {unceasingly} up until now {to this very moment} & I also am working {up until now}.
For this reason the Jewish leaders were trying even harder to kill Him, because not only was He breaking the Sabbath, but He was also calling God His own Father, thus making Himself equal with God...Whatever the Father does, the Son does also...Just as the Father raises up the dead & gives life, so ALSO the Son...so that all people will honor the Son just as {in the same manner as} they honor the Father. The one who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
John 10:24-33 How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.” Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about Me, but you do not believe because you are not My sheep. My sheep listen to My voice; I know them & they follow Me. I give them eternal life & they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand... no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I & the Father are one.”
Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone Him, but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone Me?” They replied, “We are not stoning you for any good work but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be {make yourself} God.”
Sadly, this poster cannot recognize the same thing that Jesus was claiming to be true of Himself. What He claimed was blasphemy & if not true, He should be stoned because Jesus, being a man, made Himself God! The religious teachers & leaders recognized immediately the claim for exactly what Jesus meant: He is equal to His Father in working & nature & He is God just like His Father is God. Same God different Persons. He should be honored in the same manner as God the Father. To not honor Him as God the Father is to not honor the Father.
Thus his selective single argument of 'not conclusive' in comparison to actual Scripture is foolishly INCONCLUSIVE to the REST of the testimony of Scripture. The best commentary on the Bible IS the Bible in ALL its entirety.
To show the ridiculousness of this fallacious argument, let me quote you many other Bible translations of these passages done by people respected in the Biblical world AND FLUENT IN the Biblical languages as LEGITIMATE TRANSLATORS--(of which neither this poster IS fluent in nor the translator of the CLV that he almost exclusively quotes from). I will show CONCLUSIVE EVIDENCE, since his lone example is so glaringly selective & INCONCLUSIVE.
Weymouth NT: BY the baptism...Christ was raised from among the dead BY the Father's glorious power
Berean Literal: THRU baptism...Christ was raised up out from the dead BY the glory of the Father
Apostolic Bible Polyglot (with Strong's) THROUGHG1223 theG3588 immersionG908 ChristG5547 fromG1537 the deadG3498 BYG1223 theG3588 gloryG1391 of theG3588 Father
PNB/YLT1: THRU baptism...the Anointed One was raised up from the dead BY the glory of the Father
GOD'S WORD®: WHEN baptized...Christ was brought back from death to life BY the glorious power of the Father
Analytical Literal Transl: THROUGH the baptism [or, immersion]...Christ was raised up from [the] dead THROUGH the glory of the Father
NIV: Christ was raised from the dead THROUGH the glory of the Father
Int'l Standard Version: the Messiah was raised from the dead BY the Father's glory
NASB: Christ was raised from the dead THROUGH the glory of the Father
LITV: THRU baptism...Christ was raised up from the dead BY the glory of the Father
YLT: THRU the baptism...Christ was raised up out of the dead THRU the glory of the Father
NET Bible: THRU baptism...Christ was raised from the dead THROUGH the glory of the Father
ASV: THROUGH baptism...Christ was raised from the dead THROUGH the glory of the Father
ESV: BY baptism...Christ was raised from the dead BY the glory of the Father
English RV: WHEN baptized...Christ was raised from the dead THRU the glory of the Father
KJV: BY baptism...Christ was raised up from the dead BY the glory of the Father
NHE Bible: THRU baptism...Christ was raised from the dead THRU the glory of the Father
RNKJV: BY baptism...the Messiah was raised up from the dead BY the glory of the Father
WEB: THROUGH baptism...Christ was raised from the dead THROUGH the glory of the Father
Douay-Rheims Bible: BY baptism...Christ is risen from the dead BY the glory of the Father
RSV: THRU baptism...Christ was raised from the dead THRU the glory of the Father
LEB: THROUGH baptism...Christ was raised from the dead THROUGH the glory of the Father,
MSTC Bible: BY baptism...Christ was raised up from death BY the glory of the Father
MLV: THRU immersion...Christ was lifted up from the dead THROUGH the glory of the Father,
Webster's: BY baptism...Christ was raised from the dead BY the glory of the Father
EMTV: THROUGH baptism...Christ was raised from the dead THROUGH the glory of the Father
Bishops: BY baptism...Christe was raysed vp from the dead BY the glorie of the father
SinaiticNT1918 THRU baptism...Christ was raised from the dead THRU the glory of the Father
HR Bible: THRU baptism...Messiah was raised up from the dead BY the glory of the Father
BBE: THROUGH baptism...Christ came again from the dead BY the glory of the Father
CEV: WHEN baptized...Christ was raised to life BY the glory of God the Father.
ETRV: WHEN baptized...Christ was raised from death BY the wonderful power of the Father
NHEB: THRU baptism...Christ was raised from the dead THROUGH the glory of the Father
Geneva: BY baptisme...Christ was raysed vp from the dead TO the glorie of the Father
Niobi SB: BY baptism...Christ was raised up from the dead BY the glory of the Father
NLT: BY baptism...Christ was raised from the dead BY the glorious power of the Father
HCSB: BY baptism...Christ was raised from the dead BY the glory of the Father
Darby: BY baptism...Christ has been raised up from among [the] dead BY the glory of the Father
I have just used 38 Bible TRANSLATIONS to CONCLUSIVELY show that translating the Greek word 'dia' as THROUGH is synonymous with translating it as BY & does NOT change the meaning of the passage. Thus it IS SCRIPTURALLY CONCLUSIVE: the GOD AND FATHER of Jesus raised Him out from among the realm of the dead, thus glorifying Himself AND His Son.
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| 3/15/2017 9:33:03 PM |
Who Raised Jesus From The Dead? | Page 3 |
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brashdoc
Chehalis, WA
64, joined Aug. 2008
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(continued)John 5:15-23 The man went away & informed the Jewish leaders that Jesus was the one who had made him well. Because of this the Jews were persecuting Jesus & seeking to kill him, because these things he was doing on a sabbath [day]. His answer {to their accusation} was, "My Father is working {unceasingly} up until now {to this very moment} & I also am working {up until now}.
For this reason the Jewish leaders were trying even harder to kill Him, because not only was He breaking the Sabbath, but He was also calling God His own Father, thus making Himself equal with God...Whatever the Father does, the Son does also...Just as the Father raises up the dead & gives life, so ALSO the Son...so that all people will honor the Son just as {in the same manner as} they honor the Father. The one who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
John 10:24-33 How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.” Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about Me, but you do not believe because you are not My sheep. My sheep listen to My voice; I know them & they follow Me. I give them eternal life & they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand... no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I & the Father are one.”
Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone Him, but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone Me?” They replied, “We are not stoning you for any good work but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be {make yourself} God.”
Sadly, this poster cannot recognize the same thing that Jesus was claiming to be true of Himself. What He claimed was blasphemy & if not true, He should be stoned because Jesus, being a man, made Himself God! The religious teachers & leaders recognized immediately the claim for exactly what Jesus meant: He is equal to His Father in working & nature & He is God just like His Father is God. Same God different Persons. He should be honored in the same manner as God the Father. To not honor Him as God the Father is to not honor the Father.
Thus his selective single argument of 'not conclusive' in comparison to actual Scripture is foolishly INCONCLUSIVE to the REST of the testimony of Scripture. The best commentary on the Bible IS the Bible in ALL its entirety.
To show the ridiculousness of this fallacious argument, let me quote you many other Bible translations of these passages done by people respected in the Biblical world AND FLUENT IN the Biblical languages as LEGITIMATE TRANSLATORS--(of which neither this poster IS fluent in nor the translator of the CLV that he almost exclusively quotes from). I will show CONCLUSIVE EVIDENCE, since his lone example is so glaringly selective & INCONCLUSIVE.
Weymouth NT: BY the baptism...Christ was raised from among the dead BY the Father's glorious power
Berean Literal: THRU baptism...Christ was raised up out from the dead BY the glory of the Father
Apostolic Bible Polyglot (with Strong's) THROUGHG1223 theG3588 immersionG908 ChristG5547 fromG1537 the deadG3498 BYG1223 theG3588 gloryG1391 of theG3588 Father
PNB/YLT1: THRU baptism...the Anointed One was raised up from the dead BY the glory of the Father
GOD'S WORD®: WHEN baptized...Christ was brought back from death to life BY the glorious power of the Father
Analytical Literal Transl: THROUGH the baptism [or, immersion]...Christ was raised up from [the] dead THROUGH the glory of the Father
NIV: Christ was raised from the dead THROUGH the glory of the Father
Int'l Standard Version: the Messiah was raised from the dead BY the Father's glory
NASB: Christ was raised from the dead THROUGH the glory of the Father
LITV: THRU baptism...Christ was raised up from the dead BY the glory of the Father
YLT: THRU the baptism...Christ was raised up out of the dead THRU the glory of the Father
NET Bible: THRU baptism...Christ was raised from the dead THROUGH the glory of the Father
ASV: THROUGH baptism...Christ was raised from the dead THROUGH the glory of the Father
ESV: BY baptism...Christ was raised from the dead BY the glory of the Father
English RV: WHEN baptized...Christ was raised from the dead THRU the glory of the Father
KJV: BY baptism...Christ was raised up from the dead BY the glory of the Father
NHE Bible: THRU baptism...Christ was raised from the dead THRU the glory of the Father
RNKJV: BY baptism...the Messiah was raised up from the dead BY the glory of the Father
WEB: THROUGH baptism...Christ was raised from the dead THROUGH the glory of the Father
Douay-Rheims Bible: BY baptism...Christ is risen from the dead BY the glory of the Father
RSV: THRU baptism...Christ was raised from the dead THRU the glory of the Father
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| 3/15/2017 9:34:31 PM |
Who Raised Jesus From The Dead? | Page 3 |
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brashdoc
Chehalis, WA
64, joined Aug. 2008
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The Lord Jesus Christ, Immanuel, is not FROM OR OF THE EARTH He created but He is from & of heaven above which He also created (the invisible spiritual realm--Jn 8:23). But at a point in time He left heaven & the shared glory He had with the Father (Jn 17:5) & came DOWN to the earth in a special body prepared for Him (Heb 10:5) without any human father; God was His Father in a unique way.
A man of & from this earth did not become God; Jesus was God from & of heaven, who then came down willingly to the earth & became a man without any human father.
Someone greater than & superior to angels is here (Heb 1:1-14). Someone worthy of far more glory than Moses is here (Heb 3:1-6)
Someone greater than Jonah is here (Mt 12:41) but you refused to REPENT. Someone greater than Solomon is here (Mt 12:42) but you refused to LISTEN. I tell you something greater than the temple is here (Mt 12:4-8) but you did not COMPREHEND (Jn 1:5,10). Someone greater than Moses (representing the Law) or Elijah is here (representing the prophets--Mt 17:1-13; Mk 9:1-13) but you rejected Him.
Someone is coming soon who is greater than I {John the Baptist) am--so much greater that I'm not even worthy to stoop down like a slave & untie the straps of his sandals. He existed BEFORE I did {though He was conceived & born after i was--Mt 3:11; Mark 1:7; Lk 3:16: Jn 1:15}.
[Edited 3/15/2017 9:37:37 PM ]
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| 3/15/2017 10:23:55 PM |
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_ladybug_
Paragould, AR
66, joined Sep. 2013
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Hi Brashdoc, I speak for only myself now. Though I appreciated your most recent post to clarify the "issue" of "one's" attempt to discredit you, as well as others, I personally feel you have no need to defend or clarify your position or the Biblical "Truths" you post. You are always in line with the Bible, every time and I enjoy reading what you post and know you are always in line with the Bible. And with your posts, you go into detail, accurately staying in line with Bible Truth . I thank you very much for your accurate and detailed posts.  As for the "issue" and his attempts to portray scholarly posts/information, it is easy to see through his attempts to sound like a scholar. It is also easy to see through Knoch's feeble and incorrect teachings, which is indeed very sad. I normally scroll past 99.9% of his posts as I do not care to read inaccurate information, nor do I care to read boasting as is with the majority of his posts. I pray the Lord will open his eyes and heart to Bible Truth. Thank you again for your Truthful Biblical information/posts. May God bless you for accurately speaking His Truth. 
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| 3/16/2017 5:17:21 AM |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
64, joined Feb. 2008
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Jesus is God Incarnate. Chapter one of Hebrews proves this, as does all the passages Brashdoc quite righly cited.
[Edited 3/16/2017 5:17:58 AM ]
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| 3/16/2017 10:50:23 AM |
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kb2222
Jacksonville, FL
76, joined Apr. 2011
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The Catholic Church was founded by Jesus, and Jesus promised to stay with it until the end of the world.
Jesus didn't found the Catholic church and He didn't make popes infallible teachers which any sane person should be able to see for it was dozens of popes who taught that it was righteous and just to torture and burn to death at the stake untold thousands of their brethren calling them witches and heretics for a THOUSAND years..
AND Jesus didn't instruct His followers to unquestionably accept any book later compiled by the RCC. Indeed, Jesus sent into the world the Holy Spirit of truth, the spirit of the son as His REPLACEMENT TEACHER which you "Christians" ignore when the voice that speaks within conflicts with church dogma about the book they compiled. And this is exactly why you so-called Christians to this day PRETEND not to know it is horrible inhuman wickedness to stone and burn your brethren to death at the stake if they don't agree with you.
The teachings of the church bind the mind of man to the book the church compiled and proclaimed to be all Gods inspired inerrant word/truth no matter what it says or what Jesus taught. Jesus revealed Gods true loving and caring nature and it should be obvious to all God/Jesus loving and sane people on this site that it is inhumane wickedness to stone and burn people to death at the stake for all sorts of absurd reasons and to slaughter men, women, children, infants and even animals in the name of God.
That's not the nature of God that Jesus came into the world and revealed and if you professed Christians can't accept what Jesus revealed you most certainly are NOT His true followers. Christians should be striving to believe as Jesus believed and thus to become more like Him and this cannot be done without rejecting all scripture that is incompatible with His teachings.
So long as you professed "Christians" accept the false church doctrine of the perfection of scripture you will remain morally confused and spiritually stagnant.
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| 3/16/2017 2:31:48 PM |
Who Raised Jesus From The Dead? | Page 3 |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
64, joined Feb. 2008
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If all we need to do is to listen to the Holy Spirit, why do we need Sunday schools, catechism classes, Bible studies, sermons, or seminaries? Indeed, why do we even need Bibles and Urantia Books?
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| 3/16/2017 2:48:55 PM |
Who Raised Jesus From The Dead? | Page 3 |
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freegratis
Irving, TX
50, joined Dec. 2011
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...he ignored the second half totally (either deliberately or ignorantly, God knows) & erected a strawman argument fallacy instead....
Yes, that is his modus operandi.
But he does know that the Good News is to simply Believe.
So he may actually be our brother, as opposed to some who don't even recognize the purpose of the Blood of The Lamb of God.
Then again, what does he believe? He did not like the meanings of the names of Adam to Noah.
Also I would prefer a per post topic ban, rather than an all-ban.
What is your advice after these points above? Salvation is the most important thing for the individual. Doctrinal correctness on other issues may not affect our salvation?
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| 3/16/2017 3:11:29 PM |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
64, joined Feb. 2008
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Just believing is not enough, Frregratis. Good works and avoidance of sin are also necessary. "Faith without works is dead."
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| 3/16/2017 3:24:03 PM |
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cupocheer
Assumption, IL
68, joined May. 2010
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Calling God and Jesus liars, again, LUD?
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| 3/16/2017 3:45:55 PM |
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kb2222
Jacksonville, FL
76, joined Apr. 2011
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If all we need to do is to listen to the Holy Spirit, why do we need Sunday schools, catechism classes, Bible studies, sermons, or seminaries? Indeed, why do we even need Bibles and Urantia Books?
Its the claimed infallibility of popes and their false doctrine that the Bible no matter what its says or what Jesus taught or even the evolved (spirit induced) laws of civilized society that is the cause of so much confusion. The Bible is full or inconsistencies and contradictions and rampant with the murder of people attributed to God and that's not the nature of God that Jesus revealed but brainwashed perverted people like you, Ludlow, don't give a damn. All you care about is perpetuating the claimed power and authority of a corrupt and historically murderous self-serving Catholic church.
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| 3/16/2017 4:00:44 PM |
Who Raised Jesus From The Dead? | Page 3 |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
64, joined Feb. 2008
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Just believing is not enough, Frregratis. Good works and avoidance of sin are also necessary. "Faith without works is dead."
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| 3/16/2017 4:01:11 PM |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
64, joined Feb. 2008
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If all we need to do is to listen to the Holy Spirit, why do we need Sunday schools, catechism classes, Bible studies, sermons, or seminaries? Indeed, why do we even need Bibles and Urantia Books?
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| 3/16/2017 4:34:36 PM |
Who Raised Jesus From The Dead? | Page 3 |
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bigd9832
Chicago, IL
64, joined Oct. 2007
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But he does know that the Good News is to simply Believe.
It's so nice to be referred to in the third person.
If the old quack thinks I have erected a Strawman argument, let him prove it. Post what I said that was Strawman. I see him make alot of accusations, but no evidence to support these claims.
I thank God that neither free or doc are my judges. The doc acts like he is my judge. Boy is he in for a surprise.
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| 3/16/2017 4:35:30 PM |
Who Raised Jesus From The Dead? | Page 3 |
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kb2222
Jacksonville, FL
76, joined Apr. 2011
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Its the claimed infallibility of popes and their false doctrine that the Bible no matter what its says or what Jesus taught or even the evolved (spirit induced) laws of civilized society that is the cause of so much confusion. The Bible is full or inconsistencies and contradictions and rampant with the murder of people attributed to God and that's not the nature of God that Jesus revealed but brainwashed perverted people like you, Ludlow, don't give a damn. All you care about is perpetuating the claimed power and authority of a corrupt and historically murderous self-serving Catholic church.
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| 3/16/2017 4:57:24 PM |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
64, joined Feb. 2008
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If the Holy Spirit reveals all truth to every believer directly, why do we need a Urantia Book?
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| 3/16/2017 5:08:16 PM |
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kb2222
Jacksonville, FL
76, joined Apr. 2011
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Clearly the mind of all individuals are not on the same level of acceptance and receptivity and revelation is essential to elevate understanding. You and your church and their book are stagnate believing pretty much the same as those who rejected and killed Jesus because of your false doctrines.
[Edited 3/16/2017 5:10:57 PM ]
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| 3/16/2017 5:19:32 PM |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
64, joined Feb. 2008
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NOW who's not answering the question?
So I repeat my question---if the Holy Spirit reveals all things directly to every believer, why do we need a Urantia Book?
A related question---if the Holy Spirit reveals all truth to all believers directly, why did nobody know until 1955 that God had 700,000 creator sons?
One more related question---if some strains of peoples are "inferior" and "degenerate", why don't you and FJO tell us who these strains are, and why don't believers all over the world instantly recognize who these strains are?
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| 3/16/2017 5:34:41 PM |
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kb2222
Jacksonville, FL
76, joined Apr. 2011
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I answered your question and I'm not interested in rehashing the previous accusations of your perverted mind which have been explained/discussed with you many times before.
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| 3/16/2017 5:38:53 PM |
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cupocheer
Assumption, IL
68, joined May. 2010
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So why did God permit those burnings at the stake?
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| 3/16/2017 10:16:06 PM |
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cupocheer
Assumption, IL
68, joined May. 2010
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Get Ready
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| 3/17/2017 3:35:25 PM |
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bigd9832
Chicago, IL
64, joined Oct. 2007
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Further proof that there is no "trinity" in the Bible...
CLV Jn 17:3 Now it is eonian life that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Him Whom Thou dost commission, Jesus Christ.
How many? "Only One True God" Not three.
CLV Ga 3:20 Now there is not Mediator of one. Yet God is One.
Again, God is ONE, not three.
CLV Dt 6:4 Hear, Israel! Yahweh is our Elohim; Yahweh the only One.
And again, God is ONE, not three.
CLV Ps 83:18 So that men may realize that You, You, Whose Name is Yahweh, Yours alone, Are the Supreme over all the earth. { Permanent, On the Wine Trough }
Yahweh (His name) belongs to God alone. No one else.
CLV Jn 6:44 No one can come to Me if ever the Father Who sends Me should not be drawing him. And I shall be raising him in the last day.
Jesus was sent by God, the Father.
CLV Jn 6:65 And He said, "Therefore have I declared to you that no one can be coming to Me if it should not be given him of the Father."
Unless God sends us, we cannot come to Jesus.
I have posted several Bible verses that tell us God is ONE. But I have yet to find anything in the Bible that tells us God is THREE.
Can anyone find a Bible verse that says God is THREE?
Just an added note...
From Encyclopedia Britannica
Trinity (Christianity)
Trinity Christianity in Christian doctrine, the unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three persons in one Godhead. Neither the word Trinity nor the explicit doctrine appears in the New Testament ...
https://www.britannica.com/search?query=trinity
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| 3/20/2017 11:39:17 AM |
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freegratis
Irving, TX
50, joined Dec. 2011
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Just believing is not enough, Frregratis. Good works and avoidance of sin are also necessary. "Faith without works is dead."
ludlowlowell,
You seem like you want a reply on this. Did you reply to my post on "Justification, Sanctification, Glorification"? What does the RCC teach on these?
My understanding is that Belief gets you Justified. (i.e. Saved)
The Good works and avoidance of sin, you keep referring to gets you Sanctified. A dangerous subtlety here is if you are trusting in your Good works and avoidance of sin to get you Justified. Even these good works after Justification are by faith. I used to think I contributed a good work, but see Galatians 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? And Ephesians 2:10 below.
Glorification is when you as a Catholic believe you are actually saved, but the true believer is actually saved way before glorification. Interestingly it is not the true glorifier, but true believer, in this context. We'll know we are glorified when we get our glorified spiritual bodies in heaven.
1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.
Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
Good works allow us to boast and demand our wage. Romans 4:4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
After the above, then you can say, "Faith without works is dead".
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| 3/20/2017 1:03:13 PM |
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bigd9832
Chicago, IL
64, joined Oct. 2007
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Even more Scriptural evidence to support the idea that there is no "trinity" in the Bible.
CLV Jn 14:28 You hear that I said to you, `I am going, and I am coming to you.' If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.
How can God be greater than God?
CLV Jn 20:17 Jesus is saying to her, "Do not touch Me, for not as yet have I ascended to My Father. Now go to My brethren, and say to them that I said, `Lo! I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'"
Your God and My God? How can God have a God?
CLV 1C 8:6 nevertheless for us there is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is, and we for Him, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom all is, and we through Him.
Just one God, not three.
CLV 1Pt 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who, according to His vast mercy, regenerates us into a living expectation, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from among the dead,
God is the Father of Jesus Christ. This makes Jesus His Son. This is exactly what Jesus said He is, The Only Begotten Son of God.
Some more Bible verses that you can ignore.
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| 3/20/2017 2:22:49 PM |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
64, joined Feb. 2008
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We do have eternal life with God if we believe in His only begotten Son Jesus Christ. But believing in Jesus reauires that we believe in everything He taught, and Jesus taught that the ten commandments are still in force ("not one jot or tittle of the law will pass away", "if you love me keep my commandments") and Jesus taught that good works are necessary for salvation (the ones who do not feed the hungry or visit the sick and imprisoned will lose their souls, the rich man in the Lazarus-rich man story lost his soul even though he had faith).
Many Christians, especially those who have been taught once-saved-always-saved, have the attitude that, "oh, I don't have to give time or money to charity," and/or "oh, I can sin all I want, I know I'm saved"---Jesus was very, very clear that these would not be saved. Merely calling Lord, Lord will not save us.
Assurance of salvation means that if we believe, and if we persevere in good works and avoidance of sin, we are assured of salvation. But we don't know that we will persevere in good works or avoidance. We are weak human beings. "The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak" said Jesus.
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| 3/20/2017 2:41:45 PM |
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brashdoc
Chehalis, WA
64, joined Aug. 2008
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Quote from freegratis: "What is your advice after these points above?"
Thanks for responding to my posts. My advise is summed up here:
https://DateHookup.dating/thread-1464399-91.htm#71342401 page 7
It is not enough to believe the message of the gospel or that Jesus is the Savior God. I believed all those for years but I was not saved. Giving assent to or simply being in agreement with the truth of the gospel doesn't save you. But repenting AND entrusting yourself to Christ & the gospel He taught & showing that by following the BIBLICAL JESUS does save & their is evidence in that by a changed life & a changed teaching of the truth. Demons believed that Jesus was the Holy One of God & their Judge AND SHUDDERED, but that didn't save them nor prevent their being judged & condemned. Gehenna (eternal hell, forever & ever, in the age to come) was CREATED by God especially for the devil & his angelic demons to be departed to & separate from God's saints. They believed God exists & will judge but they don't repent of their evil deeds & lying teaching but CONTINUE to promote it, just like false teachers do.
In addition, I would say that Jesus said & taught it wasn't just believing that saves nor did the Apostle James or Paul or Peter.
They all taught repentance is necessary as the foundation for a saving faith. One must first change their mind about false teaching, in other words, reject & turn away from it and turn toward God and embrace with faith the TRUTH OF THE ONE GOSPEL. The former poster believes in more than one gospel, one for the Jews & another for Christians. There is only ONE GOSPEL that was preached to both Jews and Gentiles (Gal 1:6-9)
James 1:14-26 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds & I will show U my faith by my deeds. U believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. U foolish person, do U want evidence that faith without deeds is dead? Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? U see that his faith & his actions were working together & his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God & it was credited to him as righteousness” & he was called God’s friend. U see that a person is considered righteous by what they do & not by faith alone...As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead.
I am not talking about variations in teaching concerning the issue of tongues or how one celebrates the Lord's Supper but those that boast about things but essential truths taught consistently ever since the beginning of Christianity, the teachings of Christ taught by the apostles & their disciples since the FIRST CENTURY. This is the 'FAITH ONCE FOR ALL DELIVERED TO THE SAINTS' since the time of Jude! It is the same truth the apostles & apostolic fathers taught & those they REFUTED way back then. These same heresies continue to pop up in our day. (i.e.: Jesus is not God; the Bible doesn't teach about the Triune God THROUGHOUT SCRIPTURE [Is 48:15,16]; the Holy Spirit is not a Person but some impersonal force or power emanating from God, there is no temporary or eternal hell/Gehenna; everyone will be saved none will be lost & depart from the Lord including the devil and his angelic beings, there are more than one gospel, etc. and etc.
You know people not only by WHAT they teach but also HOW they teach it (Mk 1:22 & by systematically attacking orthodox Christian teaching & replacing it with false teaching & teachers & false books & texts) & HOW they treat others love vs condescension & contempt, name calling, etc.) & what FRUIT they exhibit (Mt 7:13-23; Gal 5:7-10,13-26) & by what LEAVEN they add (Gal 5:9; Mt 16:11,12; Mk 8:15-21; I Cor 5:6-8, etc).
Another piece of advise: Mt 7:6; Proverbs 23:9; 26:4)
Another tidbit of wisdom I have learned on here: you can warn others & show them false teaching to help the saints. But if you continue to allow false teachers to use your forum post to spew false teaching you are actually contributing to disseminating their evil teaching (2 John 1:9-11)
You advise of banning from one group topic is nice. It used to be done where their posts were removed from that topic but it no longer or rarely happens now. And people can get around the blocking them quite easily, using more than one profile to view a blocker's comments. You can see this person we were referring to, did just that in your own thread
here, saying I had to prove he was using a strawman argument when I OUTLINED IT RIGHT IN MY POST! He evidently uses selective reading or he wouldn't have made such a statement had he simply read it. I already showed and proved it. But enough of that. People like this cannot stand it but continually react & target. I don't post much anymore on here for that reason but every so often I respond, not for that person but to show others the deceptive nature & expose the fruit so others can recognize it. I hope these thoughts are helpful. Thanks for asking. Heb 13:1; Rom 12:9
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| 3/20/2017 3:36:55 PM |
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isna_la_wica
Brantford, ON
63, joined Mar. 2012
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I find the responses interesting because of the various verses one pointing to Jesus Himself, many addressing that it was God the Father.
Here's one that seem to indicate that it was the Holy Spirit.
Romans 8:11
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth (5723) in you.
So far I would lean with the Father raising Jesus from the dead.
However; it makes me wonder if all Three had a part in Jesus being raised from the dead.
Good question.
I think I was actually going to do a thread on Trinity and the Resurrection, when Freegratis started this one. Its an excellent topic, but am missing most of the posts on it. So, sorry Freegratis if I am being redundant here.
Jesus :
John 2:19 Amplified Bible (AMP)
19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”
God :
Acts 5:30 Amplified Bible (AMP)
30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you had put to death by hanging Him on a [a]cross [and you are responsible].
Spirit :
Romans 8:11 Amplified Bible (AMP)
11 And if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead lives in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit, who lives in you.
If the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit were not of a Triune nature,then one has to deny Scripture, when it says God raised Jesus, and they are saying Jesus lied and the Holy Spirits part was a lie.
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| 3/21/2017 7:29:13 AM |
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bigd9832
Chicago, IL
64, joined Oct. 2007
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Mr. Knoch teaches that universal reconciliation means the same as universal salvation that even the devil and demons are saved. Here are some interesting thoughts on this:
The Difference Between Universal Reconciliation And Universal Salvation
Salvation means being saved. Being saved from what? Mr. Knoch knew that there was no "hell" in the Scriptures. doc quack here has never been able to prove his case that there is a "hell." Or that God loves only a select few.
I guess brashdoc doesn't believe what the Bible says either; or doesn't say.
For those who would deprive ALL of Salvation.
https://DateHookup.dating/Thread-1121437.htm
100 Scriptural Proofs That Jesus Christ Will Save All Mankind
https://DateHookup.dating/thread-1235334.htm
Of course ALL will be saved.
https://DateHookup.dating/thread-1116598.htm
Tell me doc, how do you know there is a "hell"?
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| 3/21/2017 11:36:30 AM |
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freegratis
Irving, TX
50, joined Dec. 2011
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Salvation means being saved. Being saved from what? Mr. Knoch knew that there was no "hell" in the Scriptures. doc quack here has never been able to prove his case that there is a "hell." Or that God loves only a select few.
I guess brashdoc doesn't believe what the Bible says either; or doesn't say.
For those who would deprive ALL of Salvation.
https://DateHookup.dating/Thread-1121437.htm
100 Scriptural Proofs That Jesus Christ Will Save All Mankind
https://DateHookup.dating/thread-1235334.htm
Of course ALL will be saved.
https://DateHookup.dating/thread-1116598.htm
Tell me doc, how do you know there is a "hell"?
Your above posts are foolishness and Lord willing, I will ban you soon bigd9832.
Why choose to serve the Lord if all will be saved?
Joshua 24:15
And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”
Why sware in wrath, they will not enter His rest if everyone will be saved? And why be concerned about wrath?
Psalm 95:11 and Hebrews 4:
So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest.’”
And Romans 6 talks about sinning so that grace may abound, being the wrong way of life. And again at the bottom of Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
There are two paths, life and death.
If you think death is annihilation, you still lie when you say everyone will be saved.
Today I call the heavens and the earth to testify against you:Life and death I have put before you, the blessing and the malediction. Now choose life that you may live, you and your seed...
And why be so vehemently opposed to the meaning of the names of Adam to Noah if everyone will be saved?
Adam -Man
Seth -Appointed
Enosh – Mortal
Kenan – Sorrow
Mahalalel – The blessed God
Jared – Shall come down
Enoch – Teaching
Methuselah – His death shall bring
Lamech – Despairing
Noah – Comfort and rest
Man (is) appointed mortal sorrow, (but) the blessed God shall come down teaching. His death shall bring (the) despairing comfort and rest.
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| 3/21/2017 3:12:27 PM |
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bigd9832
Chicago, IL
64, joined Oct. 2007
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Your above posts are foolishness and Lord willing, I will ban you soon bigd9832.
That will never happen. I have been here since 2007.
So you believe that anyone who doesn't agree with your beliefs should be banned?
There are two paths, life and death.
If you think death is annihilation, you still lie when you say everyone will be saved.
I never said that. Again, you are attempting to put words into my keyboard.
And why be so vehemently opposed to the meaning of the names of Adam to Noah if everyone will be saved?
I am not "vehemently opposed" to anything here. You exaggerate.
I simply do not think it makes sense.
Saved? Saved from what? You have not answered that question.
Perhaps when you are more serious about the bible you might.
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| 3/21/2017 9:34:20 PM |
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prophetic774
Winter Haven, FL
66, joined Feb. 2011
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**JESUS SAYS, "MY BROTHERS ARE THOSE WHO HEARS GOD'S WORD AND PUTS IT INTO PRACTICE**"
Psalm 119 has 176 verses praising the Word of God. The Old Testament had 613 laws and the New Covenant of Jesus and His love has about 400 commands which Psalm 119 also applies to. Some of my favorite verses is Psalm 119 are:
119:105: Your Word is a Lamp to my feet and a Light for my path.
119:97: Oh how I love your law, I meditate on it all day long.
119:148: My eyes stay open through the watches of the night, that I meditate on your promises.
119:164: Seven times a day I praise you for your righteous laws.
119:16: All your Words are true; all your righteous laws are eternal.
119:169: Give me understanding according to your Word.
119:2: Blessed are those who keep His statues and seek Him with all your heart.
119:11: I have hidden your Word in my heart that I might not sin against You.
Deuteronomy 18:17-19: The Lord says, "I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put My words in His mouth, and He will tell them everything I command Him. If anyone does not listen to My words that the Prophet speaks in My Name, I Myself will call Him to account."
John 14:23,24: Jesus says, "If anyone loves Me, He will **OBEY MY TEACHING**. My Father will love Him, and we will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me will not obey My teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent Me."
Revelation 1:1-3: The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants what must take place. He made it known by sending His angel to His servant John, who testifies to everything he saw--that is, the **WORD OF GOD** and the testimony of Jesus Christ. Blessed is the one who reads the **WORDS OF THIS PROPHECY**, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it!!
Revelation 22:16,18,19: "I, Jesus. have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the Churches.... I warn everyone who hears the **WORDS OF THE PROPECY OF THIS BOOK**: If anyone **ADDS** anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this Book {Including **ETERNAL HELL**} And if anyone **TAKES WORDS AWAY** from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the Tree of Life and in the Holy City {The New Jerusalem}, which are described in this book."
THE GREAT COMMISSION: Matthew 28:18-20: Jesus says, “All authority in heaven and on *EARTH has been given to Me {Not some RC Pope}. Therefore go and make disciples of *ALL NATIONS*...teaching them to **OBEY EVERYTHING** I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very *END OF THE AGE*!”
I Peter 1:23-25: You have been born again.. through the Living and Enduring Word of God. All men are like grass, and all their glory is like the flowers of the field, the grass withers and the flowers fall, but the **WORD OF THE LORD STANDS FOREVER**. And this is the **WORD** that was preached to you.
Matthew 24:35: Jesus says, Heaven and earth will pass away, but **MY WORDS WILL NEVER PASS AWAY**!"
I John 2:3-5: We know we have come to know Him {Jesus} if we obey His commands. The man who says, "I know Him," but does not do what He commands is a liar and the truth is not in him. But if anyone **OBEYS HIS WORD**, God's love is truly made complete in him!
Matthew 4:4: Jesus says, "Man does not live on bread alone, but on **EVERY WORD FROM THE MOUTH OF GOD**!"
Matthew 7:24,26: Jesus says, "Everyone who hears these **WORDS OF MINE** and **PUTS THEM INTO PRACTICE** is like a wise man who built his house on a Rock... But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand."
James 1:22,25: Do not merely listen to the **WORD**, and so deceive yourselves. **DO WHAT IT SAYS**... The man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, **BUT DOING IT**, he will be blessed in what he does.
Luke 8:21: Jesus says, "My mother and brothers are those who hears **GOD'S WORD** and **PUTS IT INTO PRACTICE**!"
Matthew 13:23: Jesus says, "But the one who received the seed that fell on good soil is the man who hears the **WORD AND UNDERSTANDS IT**. He produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown."
Luke 8:15: Jesus says, "But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the **WORD**, retain it, and by perseverance produce a crop."
John 17:17: Jesus prays to His Father, "Sanctify them by the Truth, **YOUR WORD IS TRUTH**!"
Acts 20:32: Paul says, "Now I commit you to God and to the **WORD OF HIS GRACE**, which can build you up and give you an inheritance among all those who are sanctified!"
Romans 10:17: Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard **THROUGH THE WORD OF CHRIST**!
I Corinthians 15:2: By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly o the **WORD** I preached to you. Otherwise you have believed in vain!
2 Corinthians 2:17: Unlike so many, we do not peddle the **WORD OF GOD** for profit!
2 Corinthians 4:2: We do not use deception, nor do we distort the **WORD OF GOD**!
Ephesians 1:`13: You also were included in Christ **WHEN** you heard the **WORD** of Truth, the gospel of your salvation.
Ephesians 2:17: Take the sword of the Spirit, which is the **WORD OF GOD**!
Colossians 1:25: I have become its servant by the commission God gave to me to present to you the **WORD OF GOD IN ALL ITS FULLNESS**!
Colossians 3:16: Let the **WORD OF CHRIST** dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom!
2 Timothy 2:15: Do your best to present yourselves to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who **CORRECTLY HANDLES THE WORD ** of truth!
2 Timothy 3:15,16: 4:1,2: You have known the **HOLY SCRIPTURES**,which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. **ALL SCRIPTURE IS GOD-BREATHED** and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of His appearing and His kingdom, I give you this charge: **PREACH THE WORD**!!
Matthew 16:27: Jesus says, “The Son of Man is going to come in His Father's glory with His angels and THEN He will **REWARD** each person according to what he has done!”
Daniel 12:3: Those who are impart wisdom {NIV} will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever!!
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| 3/22/2017 8:34:05 AM |
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bigd9832
Chicago, IL
64, joined Oct. 2007
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Demons believed that Jesus was the Holy One of God & their Judge AND SHUDDERED, but that didn't save them nor prevent their being judged & condemned. Gehenna (eternal hell, forever & ever, in the age to come) was CREATED by God especially for the devil & his angelic demons to be departed to & separate from God's saints. They believed God exists & will judge but they don't repent of their evil deeds & lying teaching but CONTINUE to promote it, just like false teachers do.
doc quack has never been able to provide evidence to support his wild theory that there is a "hell" or that God created a "hell" and anyone who enters therein will be there for all eternity. The fact is there is no Ancient term for "hell" as we use it today.
_____Strong's_____
G1067 geena gheh'-en-nah
of Hebrew origin (H1516 and H2011);
valley of (the son of) Hinnom; ge-henna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment.
'Gehenna' is a real place, a ravine just outside of Jerusalem. Somehow I doubt that this ravine can be used as punishment for the dead.
See my thread...
Welcome to sunny...Gehenna
https://DateHookup.dating/Thread-575330.htm
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| 3/31/2017 9:29:05 AM |
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freegratis
Irving, TX
50, joined Dec. 2011
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Good question.
I think I was actually going to do a thread on Trinity and the Resurrection, when Freegratis started this one. Its an excellent topic, but am missing most of the posts on it. So, sorry Freegratis if I am being redundant here.
Jesus :
John 2:19 Amplified Bible (AMP)
19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”
God :
Acts 5:30 Amplified Bible (AMP)
30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you had put to death by hanging Him on a [a]cross [and you are responsible].
Spirit :
Romans 8:11 Amplified Bible (AMP)
11 And if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead lives in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit, who lives in you.
If the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit were not of a Triune nature,then one has to deny Scripture, when it says God raised Jesus, and they are saying Jesus lied and the Holy Spirits part was a lie.
Amen
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| 3/31/2017 10:41:12 AM |
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freegratis
Irving, TX
50, joined Dec. 2011
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...
It is not enough to believe the message of the gospel or that Jesus is the Savior God. I believed all those for years but I was not saved. Giving assent to or simply being in agreement with the truth of the gospel doesn't save you. But repenting AND entrusting yourself to Christ & the gospel He taught & showing that by following the BIBLICAL JESUS does save & their is evidence in that by a changed life & a changed teaching of the truth. Demons believed that Jesus was the Holy One of God & their Judge AND SHUDDERED, but that didn't save them nor prevent their being judged & condemned. Gehenna (eternal hell, forever & ever, in the age to come) was CREATED by God especially for the devil & his angelic demons to be departed to & separate from God's saints. They believed God exists & will judge but they don't repent of their evil deeds & lying teaching but CONTINUE to promote it, just like false teachers do.
In addition, I would say that Jesus said & taught it wasn't just believing that saves nor did the Apostle James or Paul or Peter.
They all taught repentance is necessary as the foundation for a saving faith. One must first change their mind about false teaching, in other words, reject & turn away from it and turn toward God and embrace with faith the TRUTH OF THE ONE GOSPEL. The former poster believes in more than one gospel, one for the Jews & another for Christians. There is only ONE GOSPEL that was preached to both Jews and Gentiles (Gal 1:6-9)
James 1:14-26 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds & I will show U my faith by my deeds. U believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. U foolish person, do U want evidence that faith without deeds is dead? Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? U see that his faith & his actions were working together & his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God & it was credited to him as righteousness” & he was called God’s friend. U see that a person is considered righteous by what they do & not by faith alone...As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead.
...
brashdoc,
I'm doing this from memory, but feel it deserves a reply. And I believe clarity101 addresses it here https://DateHookup.dating/thread-1465397-31.htm on Page 3 3/29/2017 12:08:32 PM.
I believe that the James 2(:19) and Matthew 8(:29) verses show that the demons trust God for their eventual destruction, however the other "just believe" verses to people also called "Believers" trust God for their salvation.
Just that you seem to be using a:
belief + something = salvation (equation)
Salvation (Justification) is by belief/faith. Proper "belief" alone saves. Trust/Believe God for our salvation.
Sanctification is also by faith, although our works demonstrate our repentance (from each sin we realize we commit). This is where James' "works" comes in. Our works never earn salvation. Salvation is actually a gift, not payment of the wage from our work. We store up treasures in heaven here from these good works.
Glorification is our eventual "salvation" when not only we know we are saved, but all of creation knows.
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| 3/31/2017 11:40:35 AM |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
64, joined Feb. 2008
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If belief alone saves, the devil must be saved.
"And there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit; and hecried out, Saying: What do we have to do with thee, Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know who thou art, the Holy One of God."
--Mark 1:23-24
"Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?"
--James 2:24
--
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| 4/1/2017 1:18:31 AM |
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brashdoc
Chehalis, WA
64, joined Aug. 2008
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Thanks, Freegratis, for the quote:
"Salvation means being saved. Being saved from what? Mr. Knoch knew that there was no "hell" in the Scriptures. doc quack here has never been able to prove his case that there is a "hell." Or that God loves only a select few. I guess brashdoc doesn't believe what the Bible says either; or doesn't say. For those who would deprive ALL of Salvation. https://DateHookup.dating/Thread-1121437.htm 100 Scriptural Proofs That Jesus Christ Will Save All Mankind https://DateHookup.dating/thread-1235334.htm
Of course ALL will be saved. https://DateHookup.dating/thread-1116598.htm Tell me doc, how do you know there is a "hell"?
You answered him very well on the above quote. He is very predictable in his selective answers & continues to use a multitude of logical fallacies & bearing false witness.
#1 Hypocrisy: his tried method is to say someone has never proved a point that he himself cannot disprove. Then when you challenge him with something (as you, myself & others have done numerous times) to prove it, he says he doesn't have to prove anything to anyone.
#2 Bearing false testimony (breaking the 9th commandment) and using the logical fallacy, 'ad hominem': I have repeatedly in numerous postings in DHU soundly refuted every point this individual made supposedly proving hell is not in the Scriptures. So he is lying. He again hasn't done his homework. He has NEVER disproved that hell is not in the Scriptures.
#3 Again he uses the logical fallacy of the 'strawman argument': doc quack has never proven his case that God loves only a select few. I have never said anything about this yet he 'erects' this strawman and then makes 3 conclusions to show my supposed case is false! It is laughable but sad. These first 3 points are his 'modus operandi.'
#4 Another logical fallacy: 'red herring': He then throws out a laughable bait, when you look at the list of 100 proofs Jesus saves all mankind. (a red herring is something unimportant that is used to stop people from noticing or thinking about something important, distracting from the real issue) I made a post addressing this list--read them all--but only answered the first four before it was a waste of time--these HAD NOTHING TO DO with salvation or with JESUS SAVING ALL MANKIND. It was absolutely ridiculous & laughable--thus a distraction. He seems to think he can sidetrack people with a LONGGGGG list & send them down multitudinous rabbit holes that don't even address the real issue.
Again, it is a waste of time to try & answer or carry on a dialogue--there is none. I simply do this to warn others of his tactics & keep them from falling into his fallacious reasonings.
Quote: "You seem to be using a: belief + something = salvation (equation)."
Perhaps you misunderstood me. First of all, what is the 'something' that I am supposedly adding to faith? You didn't identify anything.
Quote: "Salvation (Justification) is by belief/faith. Proper "belief" alone saves."
Thirdly, it ISN'T proper belief ALONE that saves. I could quote ONLY vs. 5 below & out of context & make the case that is is GRACE ALONE that saves us. After all that IS what Scripture says...but one must understand Scripture in light of its context in the selected passage & elsewhere in Scripture.
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| 4/1/2017 1:19:45 AM |
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brashdoc
Chehalis, WA
64, joined Aug. 2008
|
Thanks, Freegratis, for the quote:
"Salvation means being saved. Being saved from what? Mr. Knoch knew that there was no "hell" in the Scriptures. doc quack here has never been able to prove his case that there is a "hell." Or that God loves only a select few. I guess brashdoc doesn't believe what the Bible says either; or doesn't say. For those who would deprive ALL of Salvation. https://DateHookup.dating/Thread-1121437.htm 100 Scriptural Proofs That Jesus Christ Will Save All Mankind https://DateHookup.dating/thread-1235334.htm
Of course ALL will be saved. https://DateHookup.dating/thread-1116598.htm Tell me doc, how do you know there is a "hell"?
You answered him very well on the above quote. He is very predictable in his selective answers & continues to use a multitude of logical fallacies & bearing false witness.
#1 Hypocrisy: his tried method is to say someone has never proved a point that he himself cannot disprove. Then when you challenge him with something (as you, myself & others have done numerous times) to prove it, he says he doesn't have to prove anything to anyone.
#2 Bearing false testimony (breaking the 9th commandment) and using the logical fallacy, 'ad hominem': I have repeatedly in numerous postings in DHU soundly refuted every point this individual made supposedly proving hell is not in the Scriptures. So he is lying. He again hasn't done his homework. He has NEVER disproved that hell is not in the Scriptures.
#3 Again he uses the logical fallacy of the 'strawman argument': doc quack has never proven his case that God loves only a select few. I have never said anything about this yet he 'erects' this strawman and then makes 3 conclusions to show my supposed case is false! It is laughable but sad. These first 3 points are his 'modus operandi.'
#4 Another logical fallacy: 'red herring': He then throws out a laughable bait, when you look at the list of 100 proofs Jesus saves all mankind. (a red herring is something unimportant that is used to stop people from noticing or thinking about something important, distracting from the real issue) I made a post addressing this list--read them all--but only answered the first four before it was a waste of time--these HAD NOTHING TO DO with salvation or with JESUS SAVING ALL MANKIND. It was absolutely ridiculous & laughable--thus a distraction. He seems to think he can sidetrack people with a LONGGGGG list & send them down multitudinous rabbit holes that don't even address the real issue.
Again, it is a waste of time to try & answer or carry on a dialogue--there is none. I simply do this to warn others of his tactics & keep them from falling into his fallacious reasonings.
Quote: "You seem to be using a: belief + something = salvation (equation)."
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brashdoc
Chehalis, WA
64, joined Aug. 2008
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Thanks, Freegratis, for the quote:
"Salvation means being saved. Being saved from what? Mr. Knoch knew that there was no "hell" in the Scriptures. doc quack here has never been able to prove his case that there is a "hell." Or that God loves only a select few. I guess brashdoc doesn't believe what the Bible says either; or doesn't say. For those who would deprive ALL of Salvation. https://DateHookup.dating/Thread-1121437.htm 100 Scriptural Proofs That Jesus Christ Will Save All Mankind https://DateHookup.dating/thread-1235334.htm
Of course ALL will be saved. https://DateHookup.dating/thread-1116598.htm Tell me doc, how do you know there is a "hell"?
You answered him very well on the above quote. He is very predictable in his selective answers & continues to use a multitude of logical fallacies & bearing false witness.
#1 Hypocrisy: his tried method is to say someone has never proved a point that he himself cannot disprove. Then when you challenge him with something (as you, myself & others have done numerous times) to prove it, he says he doesn't have to prove anything to anyone.
#2 Bearing false testimony (breaking the 9th commandment) and using the logical fallacy, 'ad hominem': I have repeatedly in numerous postings in DHU soundly refuted every point this individual made supposedly proving hell is not in the Scriptures. So he is lying. He again hasn't done his homework. He has NEVER disproved that hell is not in the Scriptures.
#3 Again he uses the logical fallacy of the 'strawman argument': doc quack has never proven his case that God loves only a select few. I have never said anything about this yet he 'erects' this strawman and then makes 3 conclusions to show my supposed case is false! It is laughable but sad. These first 3 points are his 'modus operandi.'
#4 Another logical fallacy: 'red herring': He then throws out a laughable bait, when you look at the list of 100 proofs Jesus saves all mankind. (a red herring is something unimportant that is used to stop people from noticing or thinking about something important, distracting from the real issue)
I made a post addressing this list--read them all--but only answered the first four before it was a waste of time--these HAD NOTHING TO DO with salvation or with JESUS SAVING ALL MANKIND. It was absolutely ridiculous & laughable--thus a distraction. He seems to think he can sidetrack people with a LONGGGGG list & send them down multitudinous rabbit holes that don't even address the real issue.
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| 4/1/2017 1:22:24 AM |
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brashdoc
Chehalis, WA
64, joined Aug. 2008
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Thanks, Freegratis, for the quote:
"Salvation means being saved. Being saved from what? Mr. Knoch knew that there was no "hell" in the Scriptures. doc quack here has never been able to prove his case that there is a "hell." Or that God loves only a select few. I guess brashdoc doesn't believe what the Bible says either; or doesn't say. For those who would deprive ALL of Salvation. https://DateHookup.dating/Thread-1121437.htm 100 Scriptural Proofs That Jesus Christ Will Save All Mankind https://DateHookup.dating/thread-1235334.htm
Of course ALL will be saved. https://DateHookup.dating/thread-1116598.htm Tell me doc, how do you know there is a "hell"?
You answered him very well on the above quote. He is very predictable in his selective answers & continues to use a multitude of logical fallacies & bearing false witness.
#1 Hypocrisy: his tried method is to say someone has never proved a point that he himself cannot disprove. Then when you challenge him with something (as you, myself & others have done numerous times) to prove it, he says he doesn't have to prove anything to anyone.
#2 Bearing false testimony (breaking the 9th commandment) and using the logical fallacy, 'ad hominem': I have repeatedly in numerous postings in DHU soundly refuted every point this individual made supposedly proving hell is not in the Scriptures. So he is lying. He again hasn't done his homework. He has NEVER disproved that hell is not in the Scriptures.
#3 Again he uses the logical fallacy of the 'strawman argument': doc quack has never proven his case that God loves only a select few. I have never said anything about this yet he 'erects' this strawman and then makes 3 conclusions to show my supposed case is false! It is laughable but sad. These first 3 points are his 'modus operandi.'
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| 4/1/2017 1:25:29 AM |
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brashdoc
Chehalis, WA
64, joined Aug. 2008
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(continued)#4 Another logical fallacy: 'red herring': He then throws out a laughable bait, when you look at the list of 100 proofs Jesus saves all mankind. (a red herring is something unimportant that is used to stop people from noticing or thinking about something important, distracting from the real issue) I made a post addressing this list--read them all--but only answered the first four before it was a waste of time--these HAD NOTHING TO DO with salvation or with JESUS SAVING ALL MANKIND. It was absolutely ridiculous & laughable--thus a distraction. He seems to think he can sidetrack people with a LONGGGGG list & send them down multitudinous rabbit holes that don't even address the real issue.
Again, it is a waste of time to try & answer or carry on a dialogue--there is none. I simply do this to warn others of his tactics & keep them from falling into his fallacious reasonings.
Quote: "You seem to be using a: belief + something = salvation (equation)."
Perhaps you misunderstood me. First of all, what is the 'something' that I am supposedly adding to faith? You didn't identify anything.
Quote: "Salvation (Justification) is by belief/faith. Proper "belief" alone saves."
Second of all, you didn't define the term: PROPER belief. I don't find those two terms together in the Scripture. It would help if you could define what a proper belief is scripturally--belief in what?
Thirdly, it ISN'T proper belief ALONE that saves. I could quote ONLY vs. 5 below & out of context & make the case that is is GRACE ALONE that saves us. After all that IS what Scripture says...but one must understand Scripture in light of its context in the selected passage & elsewhere in Scripture.
Eph 2:5,8 It is by grace you have been saved...For BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH YOU ARE SAVED. So it isn't JUST belief ALONE that saves nor grace ALONE that saves nor calling on the name of the LORD ALONE that saves. I could also quote out of context & isolate Romans 10:13 Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. Then I could say: Calling upon the name of the LORD ALONE saves you.
Yet the context wonderfully explains the process that goes on WITHIN a person & WHAT they believe & CONFESS--WHEN they call upon the LORD. (the gospel message is beautifully explained in the context).
Here is another passage for further clarification: 2 Cor 7:10 For godly sorrow produces (worketh)repentance leading to salvation, a repentance not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.
Hopefully this passage clarifies WHY the prophets, apostles & Christ taught both repentance & belief in the gospel. Godly sorrow for one's sins & rebellion against the LORD produces REPENTANCE: a change of your mind about WHAT you have been erroneously putting your trust in & living sinfully & this change of mind brings about repentance TOWARD A HOLY GOD (Acts 20:21) that we have offended & are accountable to.
NOW once one repents in this fashion (according to the will of God) it can then rightly LEAD TO SALVATION by grace through faith in believing the gospel message.
Matt 25:32 For John came to you to show you the WAY of righteousness (Rom 10:1-4) & you did not believe him, but the tax collectors & the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent & believe him.
Luke 13:1-5 Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? 3I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. 4Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? 5I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”
The simple explanation of Paul & James on saving faith is simply that Paul is looking at faith from how GOD VIEWS & SEES IT--He knows the heart. He knows those who are His (2 Tim 2:19) yet those who are His and call on His name WILL DEPART FROM INIQUITY (our view of the person's life being a DEMONSTRATION of their true saving faith).
James is looking at it from a human viewpoint. Since I cannot view a person's heart like God, then my reliance on a person's faith is based on what I can see outwardly--their works. Are they living SAVED? When I see a Scriptural demonstration of a saving faith, then I can concur.
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brashdoc
Chehalis, WA
64, joined Aug. 2008
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(continued)#4 Another logical fallacy: 'red herring': He then throws out a laughable bait, when you look at the list of 100 proofs Jesus saves all mankind. (a red herring is something unimportant that is used to stop people from noticing or thinking about something important, distracting from the real issue) I made a post addressing this list--read them all--but only answered the first four before it was a waste of time--these HAD NOTHING TO DO with salvation or with JESUS SAVING ALL MANKIND. It was absolutely ridiculous & laughable--thus a distraction. He seems to think he can sidetrack people with a LONGGGGG list & send them down multitudinous rabbit holes that don't even address the real issue.
Again, it is a waste of time to try & answer or carry on a dialogue--there is none. I simply do this to warn others of his tactics & keep them from falling into his fallacious reasonings.
Quote: "You seem to be using a: belief + something = salvation (equation)."
Perhaps you misunderstood me. First of all, what is the 'something' that I am supposedly adding to faith? You didn't identify anything.
Quote: "Salvation (Justification) is by belief/faith. Proper "belief" alone saves."
Second of all, you didn't define the term: PROPER belief. I don't find those two terms together in the Scripture. It would help if you could define what a proper belief is scripturally--belief in what?
Thirdly, it ISN'T proper belief ALONE that saves. I could quote ONLY vs. 5 below & out of context & make the case that is is GRACE ALONE that saves us. After all that IS what Scripture says...but one must understand Scripture in light of its context in the selected passage & elsewhere in Scripture.
Eph 2:5,8 It is by grace you have been saved...For BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH YOU ARE SAVED. So it isn't JUST belief ALONE that saves nor grace ALONE that saves nor calling on the name of the LORD ALONE that saves. I could also quote out of context & isolate Romans 10:13 Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. Then I could say: Calling upon the name of the LORD ALONE saves you.
Yet the context wonderfully explains the process that goes on WITHIN a person & WHAT they believe & CONFESS--WHEN they call upon the LORD. (the gospel message is beautifully explained in the context).
Here is another passage for further clarification: 2 Cor 7:10 For godly sorrow produces (worketh)repentance leading to salvation, a repentance not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.
Hopefully this passage clarifies WHY the prophets, apostles & Christ taught both repentance & belief in the gospel. Godly sorrow for one's sins & rebellion against the LORD produces REPENTANCE: a change of your mind about WHAT you have been erroneously putting your trust in & living sinfully & this change of mind brings about repentance TOWARD A HOLY GOD (Acts 20:21) that we have offended & are accountable to.
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brashdoc
Chehalis, WA
64, joined Aug. 2008
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(continued) NOW once one repents in this fashion (according to the will of God) it can then rightly LEAD TO SALVATION by grace through faith in believing the gospel message.
Matt 25:32 For John came to you to show you the WAY of righteousness (Rom 10:1-4) & you did not believe him, but the tax collectors & the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent & believe him.
Luke 13:1-5 Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? 3I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. 4Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? 5I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”
The simple explanation of Paul & James on saving faith is simply that Paul is looking at faith from how GOD VIEWS & SEES IT--He knows the heart. He knows those who are His (2 Tim 2:19) yet those who are His and call on His name WILL DEPART FROM INIQUITY (our view of the person's life being a DEMONSTRATION of their true saving faith).
James is looking at it from a human viewpoint. Since I cannot view a person's heart like God, then my reliance on a person's faith is based on what I can see outwardly--their works. Are they living SAVED? When I see a Scriptural demonstration of a saving faith, then I can concur.
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| 4/1/2017 1:59:53 AM |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
64, joined Feb. 2008
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Are you saying Paul and James contradict each other?
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brashdoc
Chehalis, WA
64, joined Aug. 2008
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no
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| 4/1/2017 5:48:08 AM |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
64, joined Feb. 2008
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Isn't it clear, that when we take the scripture as a whole, that grace, faith, and works---all three---are necessary for salvation?
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cupocheer
Assumption, IL
68, joined May. 2010
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No.
When you, actually read and understand scripture you'll comprehend that the only thing required for salvation is accepting Jesus Christ as your personal Savior. John 3:16
Lud, do you understand terminology? Do you know how to find the definitions of original words in various languages?
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| 4/1/2017 12:47:46 PM |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
64, joined Feb. 2008
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What if a professional hit man accepted Jesus as his personal Savior without getting out of the business? Or a professional safecracker? Or a prostitute? Without the good work of repentance all the accepting of Jesus as personal Savior is worthless.
What if a person accepted Jesus as his personal Savior but does not feed the hungry, clothe the naked, or visit the sick and imprisoned?
"What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked,and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart on peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give to them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."
--James 2:14-17
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cupocheer
Assumption, IL
68, joined May. 2010
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What if?
Isn't it God's job to deal with whether a person is sincere in their commitment to Jesus Christ?
I was a supervisor of many during my lifetime, Lud, and I must say, you impress me as a person who is not comfortable with their surroundings, job duties and responsibilities and one who keeps pushing the envelope closer to the line of demarcation to see if they can take over the supervisory role without having the experience, authority or knowledge to hold the job. Dare I coin a word definition? Lud, you give every impression of being a "Trump'dup" antagonist.
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
64, joined Feb. 2008
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I go beyond just surface thinking, yes.
Faith is not enough. Faith must be accompanied by repentance and good works, and there are tons of New Testament verses that say this.
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brashdoc
Chehalis, WA
64, joined Aug. 2008
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I apologize, Freegratis, for my repeated posts. For some reason when I post something, it says it didn't post and kicks me out of the post. So I repost. Then afterwards it shows all of them.
I see the poster you refuted about not all being saved has to break the Forum posting rules, making make a post about me specifically by name. (see: https://DateHookup.dating/thread-1433518.htm especially #3, never NAME NAMES. He also uses an alternate profile to 'bump' his posts.
Quote: "I doubt that doc-quack has read any of them. But his laughing does not prove anything."
Sounds like the enemy of our souls, Satan, to doubt, accuse & condemn others--& WITHOUT any knowledge of what is the truth. I did read all 100 proofs, God is my witness. I have no reason to lie about something like this. I went back to look at what i wrote on this & just the first rebuttal on the first supposed proof should suffice to show there is no substance to this ridiculous list nor should anyone waste their time on it. Yet he vainly continues to challenge people on this, knowing most won't take the time to read them (like I did) or refute it. This is what i wrote back in November:
100 SCRIPTURAL PROOFS THAT JESUS CHRIST WILL SAVE ALL MANKIND: A REBUTTAL (11/28/2016)
1. Acts 17:26 "He hath made of one blood (NIV one man), all nations of men, to dwell on all the face of the earth."
"Jesus Christ is not mentioned in the verse above. It also does not state that Jesus Christ will save all mankind in that verse, the very FIRST supposed PROOF! All it simply says is all people came from one man, Adam, & populated the earth. It is eisogetic, being quoted out of context to Acts 17. In the context it plainly states that Paul's spirit was deeply troubled within him because "the city was wholly given to idolatry. (vs 16)" They were worshipping idols & Paul didn't say they were all going to be saved but instead said that the time had come to stop believing ignorantly because the one true God, unknown to them, was commanding ALL PEOPLE EVERYWHERE TO REPENT, not that they were going to be saved but that they could face JUDGMENT from God by means of 'righteousness by this Man, giving PROOF of THIS to everyone--by raising Him out from among the dead.'
The reaction? Some mocked, some said come again & some named--repented, believed & were saved. ALL ARE NOT SAVED." The only 'proof' in the above context is that Jesus rose from the dead. (I Pet 3:20; Rom 9:27; Ezra 9:15; Lk 13:23-25; Mt 7:13-28 & numerous other verses can also be cited on the contrast between the sheep & the goats, believers & unbelievers, the wicked & the righteous, the wheat and the tares, the spiritually dead & those regenerated in spirit by repentance & putting their faith in Christ, etc.)
Exodus 20:4-6 You shall have no other gods before Me. 4"You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. 5"You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the 3rd & the 4th generations of those who hate Me, but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me & keep My commandments.
The fruits of this man are evident over many years on here. He first came on here as a Catholic but since being exposed, he has not ceased to attack, malign & denigrate Catholicism. Such is his fruit when he is exposed.
As Jesus said, "BEWARE of false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit & a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down & thrown into the fire. So then, by their fruit you will recognize them."
His time is coming. The LORD will not tolerate someone harming His sheep & lambs. I am praying that the Lord will deal with him as He sees what damage this man is doing with His people & His Word. I leave it in His hands. I ask you to join me in prayer for the same & that he hopefully repents beforehand so God may be merciful to him.
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brashdoc
Chehalis, WA
64, joined Aug. 2008
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I also was thinking about the resurrection as it is that time of year again to reflect on the great hope of every repentant believer & follower of the Lord Jesus Christ: the resurrection out from among the dead. He is risen, He is risen indeed & will one day cause all bodies to rise again like His own, like the prophet Daniel predicted. (Daniel 12:2)
Those who have been BORN TWICE (physically & spiritually), the final enemy of the FIRST death will be conquered; they will die only once in the first death, over such the SECOND death has no dominion or power. However, those who have only been born once (physical birth only, no second spiritual birth of regeneration from above by the Holy Spirit), who have not repented & placed their trust in Christ as Savior & Lord, they will DIE TWICE. The first death over their physical bodies will be the last enemy conquered when both believers & unbelievers will have their physical bodies resurrected (see I Cor 15:35-55; 19 out of the 20 verses mentions BODY concerning the resurrection; that is THE TOPIC. ( SEE https://DateHookup.dating/thread-871352.htm 1 Cor 15:22 The Context disproves universalism)
Matt 10:28 “And you shall not be afraid of those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul; rather be afraid of Him who can destroy soul & body in Gehenna.”
Luke 12:4,5 I tell you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body & after that can do no more. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear the One who, AFTER U HAVE BEEN KILLED, has power (authority) to throw you into Gehenna (hell). Yes, I tell you, fear Him!
However, the SECOND DEATH does have power & dominion over the devil & his angels & all those unbelievers who follow their rebellion & all these will be cast into the Lake of Fire, THE SECOND DEATH.
Rev 2:7,11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who OVERCOMES, I will grant the right to eat of the tree of life in the paradise of God. The one who has an ear had better hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who OVERCOMES will in no way be harmed by the SECOND DEATH.'
Rev 3:4-6 But you do have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments & because they are worthy, they will walk with Me in white. Like them, the one who OVERCOMES will be clothed in white garments. And I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but I will confess his name before My Father & His angels. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
Ps 69:27,28 May they not come into Your righteousness. May they be blotted out of the book of life & may they not be recorded with the righteous.
Rev 20:5,6 The REST OF THE DEAD did not come back to life until the 1000 years were complete. This is the first resurrection. Blessed & holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The SECOND DEATH has no power over them, but they will be priests of God & of Christ...
Eph 5:5 For of this you can be sure: no immoral, impure, or greedy person (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ & of God.
Prov 7:27 Her house is the way to Sheol, descending into the chambers of death.
I Cor 15:26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
Isaiah 25:7,8 And on this mountain, He will swallow up the burial shroud that enfolds all peoples, the veil that is spread over all nations—He will swallow up death in victory.
Rev 20:13-15 The sea gave up its dead & Death & Hades gave up their dead & each one was judged according to his deeds. Then Death & Hades were thrown INTO the lake of fire. THIS IS THE SECOND DEATH--THE LAKE OF FIRE. And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Rev 20:10 And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire & sulfur, into which the beast & the false prophet had already been thrown. There they will be tormented day & night forever & ever (Aramaic: for the eternity of the eternities or the ages of the ages, not ending or no end).
Rev 21:7,8 The one who OVERCOMES will inherit all things & I will be his God & he will be My son. But to the cowardly & unbelieving & abominable & murderers & sexually immoral & sorcerers & idolaters & all liars, their place will be in the lake that burns with fire & sulfur. THIS IS THE SECOND DEATH.”
I Cor 6:9-11 Do you not know that the unrighteous WILL NOT inherit God's Kingdom? Cherish no delusion here (don't be deceived). Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor those who make women of themselves, nor who abuse themselves with men (homosexuals), nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ & by the Spirit of our God.
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| 4/3/2017 10:17:45 AM |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
64, joined Feb. 2008
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Who are you talking about, Brashdoc? Who called you "Doc-quack"?
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| 4/3/2017 11:37:12 AM |
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freegratis
Irving, TX
50, joined Dec. 2011
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If belief alone saves, the devil must be saved.
"And there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit; and hecried out, Saying: What do we have to do with thee, Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know who thou art, the Holy One of God."
--Mark 1:23-24
"Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?"
--James 2:24
--
Your own verse shows the demon believing in God for its destruction.
an unclean spirit; and hecried out, Saying: What do we have to do with thee, Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know who thou art, the Holy One of God.
Saving belief is belief in God for your Salvation.
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| 4/3/2017 1:32:55 PM |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
64, joined Feb. 2008
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So you are saying that unless hope is mixed with faith, that it's not really faith? I can actually buy that. My problem is with those folks that think that just because they intellectually believe, they have a free "back stage pass" as it were into Heaven.
What does the Bible say we need for salvation? In some places it says faith, other places hope, other places good conduct, other places it says we must feed the hungry and visit the sick and imprisoned (good works), other places it says we must keep the commandments, other places it says we must be born again, other places it says we must repent of our sins, other places it says we must confess our sins, other places it says we must forgive others their sins and transgressions against us, other places it says we must obey the Church, other places it says we must eat Jesus' Body and drink His Blood. So which is it? What must we do to be saved?
Clear answer: all of the above! ALL these things are necessary for salvation. Leave even one out and that is grounds for Christ to bar the person from Heaven, because all these criteria were set by Christ. "Oh, it's all too hard, I think I'll just believe, and forget the rest" is a cop-out, the cop-out of Martin Luther. If we love God, if we love Jesus, doing all these things is a joy. Yes, these things can sometimes be pains in the necks, yes, sometimes it is hard to do good works for people that are jerks, yes, sometimes temptations are tough to fight off, but love makes it a joy. Changing a baby's diapers, or feeding a baby at 3 a.m. might be annoying, but parents love their children and make the sacrifices necessary gladly.
How do we do all these things? It takes God's grace. Without that grace it is impossible to do all of this.
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| 4/4/2017 1:45:00 PM |
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freegratis
Irving, TX
50, joined Dec. 2011
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So you are saying that unless hope is mixed with faith, that it's not really faith? I can actually buy that. My problem is with those folks that think that just because they intellectually believe, they have a free "back stage pass" as it were into Heaven.
What does the Bible say we need for salvation? In some places it says faith, other places hope, other places good conduct, other places it says we must feed the hungry and visit the sick and imprisoned (good works), other places it says we must keep the commandments, other places it says we must be born again, other places it says we must repent of our sins, other places it says we must confess our sins, other places it says we must forgive others their sins and transgressions against us, other places it says we must obey the Church, other places it says we must eat Jesus' Body and drink His Blood. So which is it? What must we do to be saved?
Clear answer: all of the above! ALL these things are necessary for salvation. Leave even one out and that is grounds for Christ to bar the person from Heaven, because all these criteria were set by Christ. "Oh, it's all too hard, I think I'll just believe, and forget the rest" is a cop-out, the cop-out of Martin Luther. If we love God, if we love Jesus, doing all these things is a joy. Yes, these things can sometimes be pains in the necks, yes, sometimes it is hard to do good works for people that are jerks, yes, sometimes temptations are tough to fight off, but love makes it a joy. Changing a baby's diapers, or feeding a baby at 3 a.m. might be annoying, but parents love their children and make the sacrifices necessary gladly.
How do we do all these things? It takes God's grace. Without that grace it is impossible to do all of this.
What must we do to be saved? Believe. This is Justification.
The rest of the works you listed are Sanctification.
When we have our glorified spiritual bodies, it is Glorification.
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| 4/4/2017 4:42:15 PM |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
64, joined Feb. 2008
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Belief is not enough. Faith without works is dead. Faith without repentance is dead.
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| 4/5/2017 12:07:14 PM |
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cupocheer
Assumption, IL
68, joined May. 2010
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Belief is not enough. Faith without works is dead. Faith without repentance is dead.
Where does the scripture say that, LUD?
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| 4/5/2017 4:57:00 PM |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
64, joined Feb. 2008
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"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."
--James 2:17
"I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish."
--Luke 13:3
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| 4/5/2017 5:02:27 PM |
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cupocheer
Assumption, IL
68, joined May. 2010
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"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."
--James 2:17
"I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish."
--Luke 13:3
James was instructing the apostles to go out and spread the word of Christianity and God's kingdom, LUD.
What James was saying was that Christianity would fade away and die if the apostles (teachers) didn't get out into the mission field and spread the word and teach the people.
Context, Lud.
God said:John 3:16
Believe in my son Jesus Christ and you shall not perish but have everlasting life.
It isn't what 'LUD says'--its what God says.
[Edited 4/5/2017 5:04:23 PM ]
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| 4/5/2017 6:40:48 PM |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
64, joined Feb. 2008
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Believing in Jesus means believing everything Jesus taught. Jesus taught repentance. And Jesus, and Jesus' apostle James, taught that faith without works is dead. "I was hungry, and you fed me not...sick and imprisoned, and you visited ne not..."
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