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3/12/2017 10:07:55 AM |
Who Raised Jesus From The Dead? | Page 2 |
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brashdoc
Chehalis, WA
64, joined Aug. 2008
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Scripture states The Father raised Jesus from the dead. Scripture also testifies that Jesus Himself states He will raise Himself out from among the dead. Scripture also records that the Holy Spirit will raise Jesus from the dead. No one else is mentioned as being able to raise Jesus from the dead except Himself, the Father and the Holy Spirit. Only the living God can raise physically dead people out from their spiritual state in Hades and Paradise as souls/spirits and reunite them with their physical bodies. People do not raise themselves from the dead; only the Creator has that kind of Power.
It is blasphemy (punishable by death) to claim one is God & from one's own authority & power to forgive sins and raise the dead & heal others. God is the One Who does this; we don't have that within ourselves to do these things.
Heb 11:17-19
God the Father raised Jesus out from among the rest of the dead & it was prophesied by the prophets beforehand, predicting & verifying this future reality (Job 19:23-27; Ps 15:9-11; 40:1-3; Dan 12:2; Acts 2:24, 32; 3:15, 26; 4:10; 5:30; 10:40; 13:30, 33, 34, 37; 17:31; Rom. 4:24; 6:4; 10:9; 1 Cor. 6:14; Gal. 1:1; Eph 1:17,20; Col. 2:12; I Pet 1:21) & will raise other people from the dead.
Gal 1:1 From Paul, an apostle (not from men, nor by human agency) but by Jesus Christ & GOD THE FATHER Who raised Him out from among the dead.
Hosea 6:2 "After two days will He revive us; in the third day He will raise us up."
Jesus raised Himself out from among the rest of the dead:
John 10:17,18 This is why the Father loves Me – because I lay down My life, so that I may take it back again. 18 No one takes it away from Me, but I lay it down of My own free will. I have the authority to lay it down & I have the authority to take it back again. This commandment I received from my Father.”
John 2:18,19 On account of this, the Jews demanded, “What sign can You show us to prove Your authority to do these things?” Jesus answered, “Destroy this temple & in three days I will raise it up again."
Heb 7:15-17 And this point is even more clear if another priest like Melchizedek appears, One who has become a priest not by a law of succession, but by the POWER OF AN INDESTRUCTABLE LIFE. For it is testified: “You are a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek.”
Rev 1:16-18 He had seven stars in His right hand. Out of His mouth proceeded a sharp two-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining at its brightest. And when I saw Him, I did fall at His feet as dead & He placed His right hand upon me, saying to me, 'Be not afraid; I AM--the First & the Last & He who IS LIVING & I did become dead &, lo, I AM LIVING to the ages of the ages [forevermore]. Amen! And I have the keys of the hades & of the death.
The Father commanded the Son to die for the remission of sins, conquer death & deliver believing people in Him from the power of death & raise them. The Son submitted His free will to the Father's will & willingly died & authoritatively raised Himself from the dead.
He will also raise others from the dead (Lk 7:11-17; Jn 5:21; I Thess 4:16), as well as the Father (Ezek 37:13) and as well the Holy Spirit (Rom 8:11).
John 11:24-26 Martha replied, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.” 25Jesus said to her, “I AM the resurrection & the life. Anyone who believes in Me WILL LIVE, EVEN AFTER DYING. And everyone who lives & believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”
Isaiah 26:19 Your dead WILL LIVE; THEIR BODIES WILL RISE. Here again, as Jesus affirmed in the verses above, that there is a distinction between the person still existing, even though they have physically died AND their body that has died, from which they departed (James 2:26). The person still exists, even though they have died & departed from their bodies. The person's body rises out of the grave & reunites with the person's own soul & spirit.
Matt 12:39-41 Jesus replied, “A wicked & adulterous generation demands a sign, but none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For just as Jonah was three days & three nights in the belly of the great fish, so the Son of Man will be three days & three nights in the heart of the earth. The men of Nineveh will stand at the judgment with this generation & condemn it; for they REPENTED at the preaching of Jonah & now One greater than Jonah is here.
The Scripture prophetically predicts that Jesus said He will rise up & be the Judge of all the earth.
Zeph 3:5-8 Jehovah is righteous within her; He will do no injustice. Every morning He brings His justice to light; He does not fail. But the unjust knows no shame. "I have cut off nations; their corner towers are in ruins. I have made their streets desolate, With no one passing by; their cities are laid waste, without a man, without an inhabitant. I said, 'Surely you will revere Me, accept instruction.' So her dwelling will not be cut off according to all that I have appointed concerning her. But they were eager to corrupt all their deeds. Wherefore expect me, saith Jehovah, in the day of My resurrection ('the day that I rise') that is to come, for My judgment is to assemble the Gentiles & to gather the kingdoms & to pour upon them My indignation, all My fierce anger; for with the fire of My jealousy shall all the earth be devoured. (see Ps 69:24; 79:6; Jer 6:11; 10:25; 14:16; Ezek 21:31; Rev 16:1. According to the remark of the Masorah the only verse of the OT, in which all the letters of the Hebrew alphabet, inclusive of the five finals, occur.)
The LXX: "until the day of my rising up for testimony." Jerome, "In die resurrectionis meae in futurum." The Fathers interpreted this of the times of Messiah - of Christ's resurrection from the dead; of His rising up to divide the spoil (Gen 49:9, 27. See also Augustine, 'De Civil.,' 18:33; Eusebius, 'Dem. Ev.,' 2:17)
Zech 12:10: "They shall LOOK upon Me whom they have pierced..."
Ps 110:1 gives special insight concerning Jesus' ascension after the resurrection. "The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit Thou at My right hand, until I make Thine enemies thy footstool." Literally, this reads: "Jehovah said unto Adonai," using two names that applied to God alone--as the Father is apparently speaking directly to the Son. This particular verse is applied to Christ no less than 5X in the NT.
Even the Holy Spirit is said to have raised Him (Romans 8:11; I Pet 3:14-22). So, the act of raising Jesus from the dead was not the operation merely of one Person within the Triune God, but was a cooperative act done by the power of the Divine substance, essence, nature. There is one God BY NATURE.
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3/12/2017 10:09:19 AM |
Who Raised Jesus From The Dead? | Page 2 |
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brashdoc
Chehalis, WA
64, joined Aug. 2008
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(continued)
Rom 8:9-11 You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet the Spirit gives you life because of righteousness. The Spirit of God, who raised Jesus from the dead, lives in you. And just as God raised Christ Jesus from the dead, he will give life to your mortal bodies by this same Spirit living within you.
2 Cor 3:6 The Spirit makes alive...
John 6:63 The Spirit gives life...
Observe the change of name from Jesus, as the historical Individual whom the Holy Spirit raised from the dead--to Christ--the same Individual, considered as the Lord & Head of all His members, or of redeemed Humanity [Alford].
It is easier to interpret most prophecies after their fulfillment than before. The religious leaders & even the disciples of Christ seem to have been caught unawares by His resurrection, in spite of their obvious knowledge of the Scriptures. Yet they could have & should have known what was coming. This fact is evident from Christ's rebuke to two disciples as they walked together on the road to Emmaus. "O fools & slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things & to enter into His glory ? And beginning at Moses & all the prophets, He expounded unto them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself" (Luke 24:25-27).
But whatever reasons they may have been able to give for their own blindness, we today have no excuse at all if we reject Him & what He taught & His victorious physical resurrection after His death for our sins. We have all the info they had & far more. We have the complete Bible, vindicated & verified by over 2000 years of Christian history & by all the internal & external evidences of its Divine inspiration & authority. The substitutionary death, burial & resurrection of Christ are so important that they constitute the very heart of the saving gospel of Jesus (I Cor 15:1-4).
Will YOU obey the gospel? (2 Thess 1:5-10)
Are we foolish & slow of heart to believe all that the prophets & the apostles & Scripture & even Christ HImself has spoken? Will YOU stop being foolish & slow of heart to believe? The burden is now before us in Jesus' own words:
Do YOU believe this?
They REPENTED at the preaching of Jonah & now One greater than Jonah is here. Will YOU repent of your unbelief & believe the Scriptures?
As to I John 5:7, I will address that next time. See also:
https://carm.org/jesus-raise-himself
https://bible.org/question/did-god-father-raise-god-son-or-did-jesus-raise-himself-dead
https://www.gotquestions.org/who-resurrected-Jesus.html
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3/12/2017 10:41:18 AM |
Who Raised Jesus From The Dead? | Page 2 |
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cupocheer
Assumption, IL
68, joined May. 2010
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3/12/2017 2:17:20 PM |
Who Raised Jesus From The Dead? | Page 2 |
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_ladybug_
Paragould, AR
66, joined Sep. 2013
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Scripture states The Father raised Jesus from the dead. Scripture also testifies that Jesus Himself states He will raise Himself out from among the dead. Scripture also records that the Holy Spirit will raise Jesus from the dead. No one else is mentioned as being able to raise Jesus from the dead except Himself, the Father and the Holy Spirit. Only the living God can raise physically dead people out from their spiritual state in Hades and Paradise as souls/spirits and reunite them with their physical bodies. People do not raise themselves from the dead; only the Creator has that kind of Power.
It is blasphemy (punishable by death) to claim one is God & from one's own authority & power to forgive sins and raise the dead & heal others. God is the One Who does this; we don't have that within ourselves to do these things.
Heb 11:17-19
God the Father raised Jesus out from among the rest of the dead & it was prophesied by the prophets beforehand, predicting & verifying this future reality (Job 19:23-27; Ps 15:9-11; 40:1-3; Dan 12:2; Acts 2:24, 32; 3:15, 26; 4:10; 5:30; 10:40; 13:30, 33, 34, 37; 17:31; Rom. 4:24; 6:4; 10:9; 1 Cor. 6:14; Gal. 1:1; Eph 1:17,20; Col. 2:12; I Pet 1:21) & will raise other people from the dead.
Gal 1:1 From Paul, an apostle (not from men, nor by human agency) but by Jesus Christ & GOD THE FATHER Who raised Him out from among the dead.
Hosea 6:2 "After two days will He revive us; in the third day He will raise us up."
Jesus raised Himself out from among the rest of the dead:
John 10:17,18 This is why the Father loves Me – because I lay down My life, so that I may take it back again. 18 No one takes it away from Me, but I lay it down of My own free will. I have the authority to lay it down & I have the authority to take it back again. This commandment I received from my Father.”
John 2:18,19 On account of this, the Jews demanded, “What sign can You show us to prove Your authority to do these things?” Jesus answered, “Destroy this temple & in three days I will raise it up again."
Heb 7:15-17 And this point is even more clear if another priest like Melchizedek appears, One who has become a priest not by a law of succession, but by the POWER OF AN INDESTRUCTABLE LIFE. For it is testified: “You are a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek.”
Rev 1:16-18 He had seven stars in His right hand. Out of His mouth proceeded a sharp two-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining at its brightest. And when I saw Him, I did fall at His feet as dead & He placed His right hand upon me, saying to me, 'Be not afraid; I AM--the First & the Last & He who IS LIVING & I did become dead &, lo, I AM LIVING to the ages of the ages [forevermore]. Amen! And I have the keys of the hades & of the death.
The Father commanded the Son to die for the remission of sins, conquer death & deliver believing people in Him from the power of death & raise them. The Son submitted His free will to the Father's will & willingly died & authoritatively raised Himself from the dead.
He will also raise others from the dead (Lk 7:11-17; Jn 5:21; I Thess 4:16), as well as the Father (Ezek 37:13) and as well the Holy Spirit (Rom 8:11).
John 11:24-26 Martha replied, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.” 25Jesus said to her, “I AM the resurrection & the life. Anyone who believes in Me WILL LIVE, EVEN AFTER DYING. And everyone who lives & believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”
Isaiah 26:19 Your dead WILL LIVE; THEIR BODIES WILL RISE. Here again, as Jesus affirmed in the verses above, that there is a distinction between the person still existing, even though they have physically died AND their body that has died, from which they departed (James 2:26). The person still exists, even though they have died & departed from their bodies. The person's body rises out of the grave & reunites with the person's own soul & spirit.
Matt 12:39-41 Jesus replied, “A wicked & adulterous generation demands a sign, but none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For just as Jonah was three days & three nights in the belly of the great fish, so the Son of Man will be three days & three nights in the heart of the earth. The men of Nineveh will stand at the judgment with this generation & condemn it; for they REPENTED at the preaching of Jonah & now One greater than Jonah is here.
The Scripture prophetically predicts that Jesus said He will rise up & be the Judge of all the earth.
Zeph 3:5-8 Jehovah is righteous within her; He will do no injustice. Every morning He brings His justice to light; He does not fail. But the unjust knows no shame. "I have cut off nations; their corner towers are in ruins. I have made their streets desolate, With no one passing by; their cities are laid waste, without a man, without an inhabitant. I said, 'Surely you will revere Me, accept instruction.' So her dwelling will not be cut off according to all that I have appointed concerning her. But they were eager to corrupt all their deeds. Wherefore expect me, saith Jehovah, in the day of My resurrection ('the day that I rise') that is to come, for My judgment is to assemble the Gentiles & to gather the kingdoms & to pour upon them My indignation, all My fierce anger; for with the fire of My jealousy shall all the earth be devoured. (see Ps 69:24; 79:6; Jer 6:11; 10:25; 14:16; Ezek 21:31; Rev 16:1. According to the remark of the Masorah the only verse of the OT, in which all the letters of the Hebrew alphabet, inclusive of the five finals, occur.)
The LXX: "until the day of my rising up for testimony." Jerome, "In die resurrectionis meae in futurum." The Fathers interpreted this of the times of Messiah - of Christ's resurrection from the dead; of His rising up to divide the spoil (Gen 49:9, 27. See also Augustine, 'De Civil.,' 18:33; Eusebius, 'Dem. Ev.,' 2:17)
Zech 12:10: "They shall LOOK upon Me whom they have pierced..."
Ps 110:1 gives special insight concerning Jesus' ascension after the resurrection. "The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit Thou at My right hand, until I make Thine enemies thy footstool." Literally, this reads: "Jehovah said unto Adonai," using two names that applied to God alone--as the Father is apparently speaking directly to the Son. This particular verse is applied to Christ no less than 5X in the NT.
Even the Holy Spirit is said to have raised Him (Romans 8:11; I Pet 3:14-22). So, the act of raising Jesus from the dead was not the operation merely of one Person within the Triune God, but was a cooperative act done by the power of the Divine substance, essence, nature. There is one God BY NATURE.
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3/12/2017 2:18:56 PM |
Who Raised Jesus From The Dead? | Page 2 |
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_ladybug_
Paragould, AR
66, joined Sep. 2013
|
(continued)
Rom 8:9-11 You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet the Spirit gives you life because of righteousness. The Spirit of God, who raised Jesus from the dead, lives in you. And just as God raised Christ Jesus from the dead, he will give life to your mortal bodies by this same Spirit living within you.
2 Cor 3:6 The Spirit makes alive...
John 6:63 The Spirit gives life...
Observe the change of name from Jesus, as the historical Individual whom the Holy Spirit raised from the dead--to Christ--the same Individual, considered as the Lord & Head of all His members, or of redeemed Humanity [Alford].
It is easier to interpret most prophecies after their fulfillment than before. The religious leaders & even the disciples of Christ seem to have been caught unawares by His resurrection, in spite of their obvious knowledge of the Scriptures. Yet they could have & should have known what was coming. This fact is evident from Christ's rebuke to two disciples as they walked together on the road to Emmaus. "O fools & slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things & to enter into His glory ? And beginning at Moses & all the prophets, He expounded unto them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself" (Luke 24:25-27).
But whatever reasons they may have been able to give for their own blindness, we today have no excuse at all if we reject Him & what He taught & His victorious physical resurrection after His death for our sins. We have all the info they had & far more. We have the complete Bible, vindicated & verified by over 2000 years of Christian history & by all the internal & external evidences of its Divine inspiration & authority. The substitutionary death, burial & resurrection of Christ are so important that they constitute the very heart of the saving gospel of Jesus (I Cor 15:1-4).
Will YOU obey the gospel? (2 Thess 1:5-10)
Are we foolish & slow of heart to believe all that the prophets & the apostles & Scripture & even Christ HImself has spoken? Will YOU stop being foolish & slow of heart to believe? The burden is now before us in Jesus' own words:
Do YOU believe this?
They REPENTED at the preaching of Jonah & now One greater than Jonah is here. Will YOU repent of your unbelief & believe the Scriptures?
As to I John 5:7, I will address that next time. See also:
https://carm.org/jesus-raise-himself
https://bible.org/question/did-god-father-raise-god-son-or-did-jesus-raise-himself-dead
https://www.gotquestions.org/who-resurrected-Jesus.html
Regarding your two page posts ... Amen and Amen!!!
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3/12/2017 2:33:09 PM |
Who Raised Jesus From The Dead? | Page 2 |
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bigd9832
Chicago, IL
64, joined Oct. 2007
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Scripture states The Father raised Jesus from the dead. Scripture also testifies that Jesus Himself states He will raise Himself out from among the dead. Scripture also records that the Holy Spirit will raise Jesus from the dead.
Perhaps the brash-quack is giving us interpretations of Scripture rather than Scripture itself.
God the Father raised Jesus out from among the rest of the dead & it was prophesied by the prophets beforehand, predicting & verifying this future reality (Job 19:23-27; Ps 15:9-11; 40:1-3; Dan 12:2; Acts 2:24, 32; 3:15, 26; 4:10; 5:30; 10:40; 13:30, 33, 34, 37; 17:31; Rom. 4:24; 6:4; 10:9; 1 Cor. 6:14; Gal. 1:1; Eph 1:17,20; Col. 2:12; I Pet 1:21) & will raise other people from the dead.
CLV Jb 19:25 Yet as for me, I know my Redeemer is living, And after this He shall arise on the soil;
This verse really doesn't say who raised Jesus from among the dead.
There is no Psalm 15:9-11 Psalm 15 ends at 5.
Daniel 12:2 doesn't tell us Who raised Jesus from among the dead.
CLV Ro 6:4 We, then, were entombed together with Him through baptism into death, that, even as Christ was roused from among the dead through the glory of the Father, thus we also should be walking in newness of life.
The KJV uses the word "by."
_____Strong's_____
iG1223 dia dee-ah'
a primary preposition denoting the channel of an act;
through (in very wide applications, local, causal, or occasional)... fore, from, in, by occasion of, of, by reason of, for sake, that, thereby, therefore, X though, through(-out), to, wherefore, with (-in). In composition it retains the same general importance.
Not conclusive.
Galatians 1:1. Again, the word "through" (dia) is used. Again the KJV uses the word "by."
Not conclusive.
CLV Eph 1:17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may be giving you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the realization of Him,
Nothing here on Who raised Jesus from among the dead.
Except for the few exceptions I listed, the rest of the list this quack has tells us that it was God who raised Jesus from among the dead.
Gal. 1:1 See above. Not conclusive.
CLV Ro 8:11 Now if the spirit of Him Who rouses Jesus from among the dead is making its home in you, He Who rouses Christ Jesus from among the dead will also be vivifying your mortal bodies because of His spirit making its home in in you.
According to the Scriptures, the same Spirit that rouses Jesus from among the dead has made It's home in you and me. So God has given us all the ability to raise from among the dead, including Jesus.
This ability comes from God.
CLV 1C 15:22 For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified.
23 Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence;
24 thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power.
25 For He must be reigning until He which should be placing all His enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy is being abolished: death.
According to this, it is Christ's reign that makes vivification/resurrection possible.
CLV 1C 15:28 Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.
He shall eventually subject Himself to God.
There is nothing here about a "trinity." God is God and Jesus is exactly Who He said He was, The Only Begotten Son of God.
Nowhere does Jesus say He is God.
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3/12/2017 3:19:26 PM |
Who Raised Jesus From The Dead? | Page 2 |
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share_n_love
Fort Wayne, IN
61, joined Dec. 2012
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God, working through His Church, gave the world the Bible. To believe in the Bible without believing in the Catholic Church would be like elieing in the Boy Scout Handbook without believing in the Boy Scouts.
Your RCC is NOT YHVH's word. Your RCC is is merely an organization of men, ran by men, with rules made by men. Nothing more.
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3/12/2017 4:33:41 PM |
Who Raised Jesus From The Dead? | Page 2 |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
64, joined Feb. 2008
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The Catholic Church was founded by Jesus, and Jesus promised to stay with it until the end of the world.
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3/12/2017 6:34:34 PM |
Who Raised Jesus From The Dead? | Page 2 |
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isna_la_wica
Brantford, ON
63, joined Mar. 2012
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Found this at got questions, and it answers it quite well me thinks:
Answer: In Acts 2:24, Peter says that “God raised [Jesus] from the dead” (see also Romans 8:11 and 2 Corinthians 4:14). Romans 1:4 (and possibly 1 Peter 3:18) seems to say that the Spirit raised Jesus from the dead (Romans 8:11 clearly says that God will resurrect believers “through His Spirit”). And in John 2:19 Jesus predicts that He will raise Himself from the dead (see also John 10:18). So who exactly resurrected Jesus from the dead? Was it the Father, the Son, or the Spirit?
The basic answer is that “God has raised . . . Jesus to life” (Acts 2:32). The Father is God, and the Father raised His Son to life on the third day after the crucifixion (Romans 6:4; 2 Corinthians 13:4). The Spirit is also God, and the Spirit had a part in raising Jesus from the dead. The Son is also God, and the Son, too, was responsible for His own resurrection.
How can a dead man resurrect himself? Jesus was more than a man who died; He was the eternal Son of God incarnate. Wicked men could kill His body, but they could not change His eternal nature or diminish His divine power. In John 10:17–18 Jesus says something that no mere mortal could ever say: “I lay down my life—only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again.” No one else in the history of the world has ever had the authority both to lay down his life and raise it up again.
Furthermore, Jesus said, “I am the resurrection and the life” (John 11:25). He did not say, “My Father is the resurrection.” He claimed to be the resurrection Himself; life resides with Jesus, and He has absolute authority over life and death (Revelation 1:18). Jesus is God. He could say He would raise up His body on the third day because He is part of the One Being of God.
Who resurrected Jesus from the dead? God did, and by that we mean all three Persons of the Trinity were involved. All three Persons of the Trinity participated in creation (1 Corinthians 8:6; Genesis 1:1–2). All three are involved in salvation (John 3:6, 16). And all three are responsible for the resurrection of Christ Jesus.
Who resurrected Jesus? - Got Questions
https://gotquestions.org/who-resurrected-Jesus.html
Sorry, I do not understand why 1 John 5:7 would be considered "corrupted".
1 John 5:7-8 Amplified Bible (AMP)
7 For there are three witnesses: 8 the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three are in agreement [their testimony is perfectly consistent].
[Edited 3/12/2017 6:34:56 PM ]
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3/12/2017 11:45:14 PM |
Who Raised Jesus From The Dead? | Page 2 |
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share_n_love
Fort Wayne, IN
61, joined Dec. 2012
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The Catholic Church was founded by Jesus, and Jesus promised to stay with it until the end of the world.
NO it wasn't Lud.
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3/13/2017 12:31:58 AM |
Who Raised Jesus From The Dead? | Page 2 |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
64, joined Feb. 2008
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If Jesus didn't foud the Catholic Church, who did?
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3/13/2017 7:36:58 AM |
Who Raised Jesus From The Dead? | Page 2 |
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bigd9832
Chicago, IL
64, joined Oct. 2007
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The Catholic Church was founded by Jesus, and Jesus promised to stay with it until the end of the world.
No, He didn't.
There is no evidence to support such a wild claim.
If Jesus didn't foud the Catholic Church, who did?
A drunken Muslim.
Or maybe it was King James.
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3/13/2017 11:33:36 AM |
Who Raised Jesus From The Dead? | Page 2 |
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freegratis
Irving, TX
50, joined Dec. 2011
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... See above. Not conclusive.
CLV Ro 8:11 Now if the spirit of Him Who rouses Jesus from among the dead is making its home in you, He Who rouses Christ Jesus from among the dead will also be vivifying your mortal bodies because of His spirit making its home in in you.
According to the Scriptures, the same Spirit that rouses Jesus from among the dead has made It's home in you and me. So God has given us all the ability to raise from among the dead, including Jesus.
This ability comes from God.
CLV 1C 15:22 For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified.
23 Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence;
24 thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power.
25 For He must be reigning until He which should be placing all His enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy is being abolished: death.
According to this, it is Christ's reign that makes vivification/resurrection possible.
CLV 1C 15:28 Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.
He shall eventually subject Himself to God.
There is nothing here about a "trinity." God is God and Jesus is exactly Who He said He was, The Only Begotten Son of God.
Nowhere does Jesus say He is God.
CLV 6:63 The Spirit is that which is vivifying. The flesh is not benefiting anything. The declarations which I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
Nowhere does Jesus say He is God.
That may not be true, but even if I assume it is true, Jesus said in John 5:31...hey what did Jesus say in John 5:31? KJV seems to say don't trust what "1 witness/person says", but CLV seems to be inconclusive.
Anyway it is as if Jesus said, "I'm not saying I'm God, but I'll raise this that and the other from the dead...I'm not saying I'm God, but I'll create wine from water. I'm not saying I'm God, but I'll calm the seas with my spoken Word. I'm not saying there is a trinity, but these three personages surely display the attributes of God!!!"
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3/13/2017 11:35:10 AM |
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freegratis
Irving, TX
50, joined Dec. 2011
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Scripture states The Father raised Jesus from the dead. Scripture also testifies that Jesus Himself states He will raise Himself out from among the dead. Scripture also records that the Holy Spirit will raise Jesus from the dead. No one else is mentioned as being able to raise Jesus from the dead except Himself, the Father and the Holy Spirit. Only the living God can raise physically dead people out from their spiritual state in Hades and Paradise as souls/spirits and reunite them with their physical bodies. People do not raise themselves from the dead; only the Creator has that kind of Power.
It is blasphemy (punishable by death) to claim one is God & from one's own authority & power to forgive sins and raise the dead & heal others. God is the One Who does this; we don't have that within ourselves to do these things.
Heb 11:17-19
God the Father raised Jesus out from among the rest of the dead & it was prophesied by the prophets beforehand, predicting & verifying this future reality (Job 19:23-27; Ps 15:9-11; 40:1-3; Dan 12:2; Acts 2:24, 32; 3:15, 26; 4:10; 5:30; 10:40; 13:30, 33, 34, 37; 17:31; Rom. 4:24; 6:4; 10:9; 1 Cor. 6:14; Gal. 1:1; Eph 1:17,20; Col. 2:12; I Pet 1:21) & will raise other people from the dead.
Gal 1:1 From Paul, an apostle (not from men, nor by human agency) but by Jesus Christ & GOD THE FATHER Who raised Him out from among the dead.
Hosea 6:2 "After two days will He revive us; in the third day He will raise us up."
Jesus raised Himself out from among the rest of the dead:
John 10:17,18 This is why the Father loves Me – because I lay down My life, so that I may take it back again. 18 No one takes it away from Me, but I lay it down of My own free will. I have the authority to lay it down & I have the authority to take it back again. This commandment I received from my Father.”
John 2:18,19 On account of this, the Jews demanded, “What sign can You show us to prove Your authority to do these things?” Jesus answered, “Destroy this temple & in three days I will raise it up again."
Heb 7:15-17 And this point is even more clear if another priest like Melchizedek appears, One who has become a priest not by a law of succession, but by the POWER OF AN INDESTRUCTABLE LIFE. For it is testified: “You are a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek.”
Rev 1:16-18 He had seven stars in His right hand. Out of His mouth proceeded a sharp two-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining at its brightest. And when I saw Him, I did fall at His feet as dead & He placed His right hand upon me, saying to me, 'Be not afraid; I AM--the First & the Last & He who IS LIVING & I did become dead &, lo, I AM LIVING to the ages of the ages [forevermore]. Amen! And I have the keys of the hades & of the death.
The Father commanded the Son to die for the remission of sins, conquer death & deliver believing people in Him from the power of death & raise them. The Son submitted His free will to the Father's will & willingly died & authoritatively raised Himself from the dead.
He will also raise others from the dead (Lk 7:11-17; Jn 5:21; I Thess 4:16), as well as the Father (Ezek 37:13) and as well the Holy Spirit (Rom 8:11).
John 11:24-26 Martha replied, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.” 25Jesus said to her, “I AM the resurrection & the life. Anyone who believes in Me WILL LIVE, EVEN AFTER DYING. And everyone who lives & believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”
Isaiah 26:19 Your dead WILL LIVE; THEIR BODIES WILL RISE. Here again, as Jesus affirmed in the verses above, that there is a distinction between the person still existing, even though they have physically died AND their body that has died, from which they departed (James 2:26). The person still exists, even though they have died & departed from their bodies. The person's body rises out of the grave & reunites with the person's own soul & spirit.
Matt 12:39-41 Jesus replied, “A wicked & adulterous generation demands a sign, but none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For just as Jonah was three days & three nights in the belly of the great fish, so the Son of Man will be three days & three nights in the heart of the earth. The men of Nineveh will stand at the judgment with this generation & condemn it; for they REPENTED at the preaching of Jonah & now One greater than Jonah is here.
The Scripture prophetically predicts that Jesus said He will rise up & be the Judge of all the earth.
Zeph 3:5-8 Jehovah is righteous within her; He will do no injustice. Every morning He brings His justice to light; He does not fail. But the unjust knows no shame. "I have cut off nations; their corner towers are in ruins. I have made their streets desolate, With no one passing by; their cities are laid waste, without a man, without an inhabitant. I said, 'Surely you will revere Me, accept instruction.' So her dwelling will not be cut off according to all that I have appointed concerning her. But they were eager to corrupt all their deeds. Wherefore expect me, saith Jehovah, in the day of My resurrection ('the day that I rise') that is to come, for My judgment is to assemble the Gentiles & to gather the kingdoms & to pour upon them My indignation, all My fierce anger; for with the fire of My jealousy shall all the earth be devoured. (see Ps 69:24; 79:6; Jer 6:11; 10:25; 14:16; Ezek 21:31; Rev 16:1. According to the remark of the Masorah the only verse of the OT, in which all the letters of the Hebrew alphabet, inclusive of the five finals, occur.)
The LXX: "until the day of my rising up for testimony." Jerome, "In die resurrectionis meae in futurum." The Fathers interpreted this of the times of Messiah - of Christ's resurrection from the dead; of His rising up to divide the spoil (Gen 49:9, 27. See also Augustine, 'De Civil.,' 18:33; Eusebius, 'Dem. Ev.,' 2:17)
Zech 12:10: "They shall LOOK upon Me whom they have pierced..."
Ps 110:1 gives special insight concerning Jesus' ascension after the resurrection. "The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit Thou at My right hand, until I make Thine enemies thy footstool." Literally, this reads: "Jehovah said unto Adonai," using two names that applied to God alone--as the Father is apparently speaking directly to the Son. This particular verse is applied to Christ no less than 5X in the NT.
Even the Holy Spirit is said to have raised Him (Romans 8:11; I Pet 3:14-22). So, the act of raising Jesus from the dead was not the operation merely of one Person within the Triune God, but was a cooperative act done by the power of the Divine substance, essence, nature. There is one God BY NATURE.
AMEN, Brother!
You are the only one who understood my point of this post.
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3/13/2017 12:12:37 PM |
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cupocheer
Assumption, IL
68, joined May. 2010
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Jesus said, "When you see me you see also the Father."
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3/13/2017 12:35:12 PM |
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bigd9832
Chicago, IL
64, joined Oct. 2007
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That may not be true, but even if I assume it is true, Jesus said in John 5:31...hey what did Jesus say in John 5:31? KJV seems to say don't trust what "1 witness/person says", but CLV seems to be inconclusive.
I suppose some would prefer a false conclusion.
Anyway it is as if Jesus said, "I'm not saying I'm God, but I'll raise this that and the other from the dead...I'm not saying I'm God, but I'll create wine from water. I'm not saying I'm God, but I'll calm the seas with my spoken Word. I'm not saying there is a trinity, but these three personages surely display the attributes of God!!!"
But Jesus didn't say, "I am not God." He said...
CLV Jn 10:34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, that `I say you are gods'?
35 If He said those were gods, to whom the word of God came (and the scripture can not be annulled),
How many gods in a "trinity"? Three? Three in one?
CLV Mk 12:29 Jesus answered him that "The foremost precept of all is: Hear, Israel! the Lord our God is one Lord.
The Lord thy God is ONE!
**************************************************************************************
I don't understand why so many here insist on quoting 1John 5:7-8 in relation to a "trinity." There is no mention of a "trinity" in the Scriptures. None. Nada. Zip.
1John 5:7-8 is about the TESTIMONY ONLY of "the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit."
The way so many throw these verses around you have to think that every time these three are used together in a sentence it is talking about the nature of God. WRONG!
In John 10:17–18 Jesus says something that no mere mortal could ever say: “I lay down my life—only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again.” No one else in the history of the world has ever had the authority both to lay down his life and raise it up again.
CLV Jn 10:17 "Therefore the Father is loving Me, seeing that I am laying down My soul that I may be getting it again.
It is true that Jesus was not a normal mortal being like us. He was, and is, the Only Begotten Son of God. He was the Son of God before He was born on this planet as Jesus. He is NOT God, He is God's Son, just like He said.
Furthermore, Jesus said, “I am the resurrection and the life” (John 11:25). He did not say, “My Father is the resurrection.” He claimed to be the resurrection Himself; life resides with Jesus, and He has absolute authority over life and death (Revelation 1:18).
We are told in the Scriptures that Jesus was given the ability of the Resurrection by God.
CLV Ro 8:11 Now if the spirit of Him Who rouses Jesus from among the dead is making its home in you, He Who rouses Christ Jesus from among the dead will also be vivifying your mortal bodies because of His spirit making its home in in you.
CLV 1C 15:22 For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified.
23 Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence;
24 thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power.
25 For He must be reigning until He which should be placing all His enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy is being abolished: death.
It is part of the job that comes with Messiah. Destroy all the governments of man and Resurrect all the dead. God has given Him the ability to accomplish all this and more. This does NOT make Him God. I think they just kinda slipped that in there.
CLV 1C 8:6 nevertheless for us there is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is, and we for Him, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom all is, and we through Him.
One is God and One is Lord. It's so simple. There is no "trinity" in this verse.
CLV Gn 1:1 IN A BEGINNING Created by the Elohim were the heavens and the earth.
2 Yet the earth became a chaos and vacant, and darkness was on the surface of the submerged chaos. Yet the spirit of the Elohim is vibrating over the surface of the water.
Again, there is no "trinity" in these verses. The "Spirit of the Elohim" is NOT the Elohim.
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3/13/2017 12:41:10 PM |
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cupocheer
Assumption, IL
68, joined May. 2010
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3/13/2017 1:40:05 PM |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
64, joined Feb. 2008
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Jesus said, "When you see me you see also the Father."
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3/13/2017 4:55:36 PM |
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_ladybug_
Paragould, AR
66, joined Sep. 2013
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Your RCC is NOT YHVH's word. Your RCC is is merely an organization of men, ran by men, with rules made by men. Nothing more.
Exactly Share!
Will also add ... whenever researched, Catholicism is ALWAYS listed as a cult!
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3/13/2017 4:58:35 PM |
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freegratis
Irving, TX
50, joined Dec. 2011
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We are told in the Scriptures that Jesus was given the ability of the Resurrection by God.
CLV Ro 8:11 Now if the spirit of Him Who rouses Jesus from among the dead is making its home in you, He Who rouses Christ Jesus from among the dead will also be vivifying your mortal bodies because of His spirit making its home in in you.
CLV 1C 15:22 For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified.
23 Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence;
24 thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power.
25 For He must be reigning until He which should be placing all His enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy is being abolished: death.
It is part of the job that comes with Messiah. Destroy all the governments of man and Resurrect all the dead. God has given Him the ability to accomplish all this and more. This does NOT make Him God. I think they just kinda slipped that in there.
CLV 1C 8:6 nevertheless for us there is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is, and we for Him, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom all is, and we through Him.
One is God and One is Lord. It's so simple. There is no "trinity" in this verse.
CLV Gn 1:1 IN A BEGINNING Created by the Elohim were the heavens and the earth.
2 Yet the earth became a chaos and vacant, and darkness was on the surface of the submerged chaos. Yet the spirit of the Elohim is vibrating over the surface of the water.
Again, there is no "trinity" in these verses. The "Spirit of the Elohim" is NOT the Elohim.
You are quoting Revelation 1. Is the Alpha and Omega different than The First and The Last, which is also different from the Beginning and the Ending? Or do these three phrases mean the same thing?
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3/13/2017 5:05:13 PM |
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_ladybug_
Paragould, AR
66, joined Sep. 2013
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AMEN, Brother!
You are the only one who understood my point of this post.
Amen Free! It's refreshing to read Brasdoc's posts. I've yet to read one of his posts that's not Biblically Truth!
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3/13/2017 5:06:27 PM |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
64, joined Feb. 2008
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Exactly Share!
Will also add ... whenever researched, Catholicism is ALWAYS listed as a cult!
Even if that were true, Ladybug, Jesus and the Father are still One (Jesus is still God), something Share denies.
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3/13/2017 5:11:10 PM |
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bigd9832
Chicago, IL
64, joined Oct. 2007
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You are quoting Revelation 1. Is the Alpha and Omega different than The First and The Last, which is also different from the Beginning and the Ending? Or do these three phrases mean the same thing?
Now sure where you see Rev. 1.
CLV Re 1:8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," is saying the Lord God, Who is and Who was and Who is coming, the Almighty.
"Alpha and the Omega" are also in the KJV. What are you comparing it with?
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3/13/2017 6:08:47 PM |
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_ladybug_
Paragould, AR
66, joined Sep. 2013
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Even if that were true, Ladybug, Jesus and the Father are still One (Jesus is still God), something Share denies.
Lud, I will say this ONLY ONCE! I no longer care to read ANYTHING you post, or reply to your posts, for they are nothing more than Catholic lies, blasphemy and heresy! You have been blinded so severely by Catholic teachings/doctrines that you've become a lost soul. I find that truly sad.
.... Jesus DID NOT found the Catholic Church, corrupt men did! And corrupt men wrote the teachings/doctrines out of political gain and greed! Jesus would NEVER found such a cruel monstrosity called the Catholic Church!
.... Peter was NOT the first Pope!
.... Corrupt men bound your Catholic Bible after changing, deleting and adding to God's Word!
.... The Catholic Church is guilty of torturing and killing millions and millions of innocent true Christians, men, women AND children!
.... The TRUE Holy Bible was bound from God's chosen men (Jews and Christians NOT Catholics) from letters written from God's chosen men!
.... Your Catholic Church is treading VERY DANGEROUS waters teaching Replacement Theology of which you believe and constantly post!
.... Your Catholic Church is treading VERY DANGEROUS water teaching no salvation outside of the Catholic Church!!
.... Your Catholic Church is treading VERY DANGEROUS waters teaching Mary is Mother of God, your church and worst, to be prayed to and she's the intercessor BEFORE Jesus! She's idolized ABOVE Jesus!
.... Your church's cannibalistic eucharist is nothing more than a evil ritual crucifying Jesus over and over again and again, that is the message that Jesus' crucifixion was not sufficient as He said it was ..... "It is finished". What your church is doing is calling Jesus a liar! As is every Catholic like you is doing, calling Jesus a liar!
Those are only a few of VERY DANGEROUS things our Lord God will NOT turn a blind eye to!! Your church and EVERY believer of these and other blasphemies and heresies your church and all believers of these things WILL be held accountable for!!!!
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3/13/2017 6:44:51 PM |
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cupocheer
Assumption, IL
68, joined May. 2010
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As a footnote reference only:
Aren't all religious groups referred to as 'cults'?
(just an observation)
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3/13/2017 8:40:42 PM |
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indianadave1951
Mishawaka, IN
66, joined Dec. 2010
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John 10:18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.
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3/13/2017 9:53:19 PM |
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isna_la_wica
Brantford, ON
63, joined Mar. 2012
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Even if that were true, Ladybug, Jesus and the Father are still One (Jesus is still God), something Share denies.
Dont worry about Lady bug claiming Catholics are a cult.
Cult has a very broad meaning.
cult
[kuhlt]
Spell Syllables
Examples Word Origin
See more synonyms on Thesaurus.com
noun
1.
a particular system of religious worship, especially with reference to its rites and ceremonies.
2.
an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, especially as manifested by a body of admirers:
the physical fitness cult.
3.
the object of such devotion.
4.
a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc.
5.
Sociology. a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols.
6.
a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader.
7.
the members of such a religion or sect.
adjective
9.
of or relating to a cult.
10.
of, for, or attracting a small group of devotees:
a cult movie.
What is important is what kind of a 'cult' a group is.
There is an old quote in Christianity that goes like this:"In Essentials Unity, In Non-Essentials Liberty, In All Things Charity"
Is the Trinity an essential or non essential doctrine of Christianity? It is important, as Paul warned about the false gospel being promoted to the Galations.
Galatians 1:6-9 Amplified Bible (AMP)
Perversion of the Gospel
6 I am astonished and extremely irritated that you are so quickly shifting your allegiance and deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different [even contrary] gospel; 7 which is really not another [gospel]; but there are [obviously] [a]some [people masquerading as teachers] who are disturbing and confusing you [with a misleading, counterfeit teaching] and want to distort the gospel of Christ [twisting it into something which it absolutely is not]. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we [originally] preached to you, let him be condemned to destruction! 9 As we have said before, so I now say again, if anyone is preaching to you a gospel different from that which you received [from us], let him be condemned to destruction!
So, it is important to realize that an 'essential " doctrine, we must have unity, even if we disagree on non essentials.
Just how "essential' is the Trinity to the Gospel?
Well with out the trinity, not even Creation its self can be understood, let alone the nature of God.
John 1:1-14 Amplified Bible (AMP)
The Deity of Jesus Christ
1 In the beginning [before all time] was the Word ([a]Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Himself. 2 He was [continually existing] in the beginning [co-eternally] with God. 3 All things were made and came into existence through Him; and without Him not even one thing was made that has come into being. 4 In Him was life [and the power to bestow life], and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines on in the [c]darkness, and the darkness did not understand it or overpower it or appropriate it or absorb it [and is unreceptive to it].
Reading down further , verse 14 makes it clearer:
The Word Made Flesh
14 And the Word (Christ) became flesh, and lived among us; and we [actually] saw His glory, glory as belongs to the [One and] only begotten Son of the Father, [the Son who is truly unique, the only One of His kind, who is] full of grace and truth (absolutely free of deception).
All kinds of cults exist in Christianity that deny the trinity. And they are dangerous to the Gospel. We have the "Oneness ", or United Pentecostals , or Jesus only Pentecostals who follow "Modalsim".
God is sometimes the father, sometimes the Son or sometimes the Spirit, but is unable to be all 3 at the same time.
With such a view though, they are in fact, denying the very nature of God, and are distorting the "Gospel".
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3/13/2017 10:13:43 PM |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
64, joined Feb. 2008
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Lud, I will say this ONLY ONCE! I no longer care to read ANYTHING you post, or reply to your posts, for they are nothing more than Catholic lies, blasphemy and heresy! You have been blinded so severely by Catholic teachings/doctrines that you've become a lost soul. I find that truly sad.
.... Jesus DID NOT found the Catholic Church, corrupt men did! And corrupt men wrote the teachings/doctrines out of political gain and greed! Jesus would NEVER found such a cruel monstrosity called the Catholic Church!
.... Peter was NOT the first Pope!
.... Corrupt men bound your Catholic Bible after changing, deleting and adding to God's Word!
.... The Catholic Church is guilty of torturing and killing millions and millions of innocent true Christians, men, women AND children!
.... The TRUE Holy Bible was bound from God's chosen men (Jews and Christians NOT Catholics) from letters written from God's chosen men!
.... Your Catholic Church is treading VERY DANGEROUS waters teaching Replacement Theology of which you believe and constantly post!
.... Your Catholic Church is treading VERY DANGEROUS water teaching no salvation outside of the Catholic Church!!
.... Your Catholic Church is treading VERY DANGEROUS waters teaching Mary is Mother of God, your church and worst, to be prayed to and she's the intercessor BEFORE Jesus! She's idolized ABOVE Jesus!
.... Your church's cannibalistic eucharist is nothing more than a evil ritual crucifying Jesus over and over again and again, that is the message that Jesus' crucifixion was not sufficient as He said it was ..... "It is finished". What your church is doing is calling Jesus a liar! As is every Catholic like you is doing, calling Jesus a liar!
Those are only a few of VERY DANGEROUS things our Lord God will NOT turn a blind eye to!! Your church and EVERY believer of these and other blasphemies and heresies your church and all believers of these things WILL be held accountable for!!!!
Ladybug, even if all that is true (it isn't), even if every Catholic was/is worse than Satan hiself (they weren't/aren't), guess what? The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are STILL all equally God. Jesus and the Father are one, no matter what your present man-made denomination teaches.
[Edited 3/13/2017 10:15:34 PM ]
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3/14/2017 8:47:26 AM |
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bigd9832
Chicago, IL
64, joined Oct. 2007
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I have already cited several reasons that there is no 'trinity' in the Scriptures. I have heard no evidence to support this theory. I have seen no evidence to the contrary of what I have already stated. So far, no one has come forward with any Scriptures to disprove these points.
1. Nowhere in the Scriptures does Jesus call Himself God.
2. Nowhere in the Scriptures is God referred to as three or three in one...
CLV Dt 6:4 Hear, Israel! Yahweh is our Elohim; Yahweh the only One.
3. Jesus told us that we could all become One with the Father (John 17:11), like He is...
CLV Jn 17:11 And no longer am I in the world, and they are in the world, and I to Thee am coming. Holy Father, keep them in Thy name, in which Thou hast given them to Me, that they may be one, according as We are.
CLV Jn 17:21 that they may all be one, according as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be in Us, that the world should be believing that Thou dost commission Me.
CLV 1C 15:28 Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.
4. Jesus told us we are all gods...
AV Jn 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34. Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35. If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
CLV Jn 10:33 The Jews answered Him, "For an ideal act we are not stoning you, but for blasphemy, and that you, being a man, are making yourself God."
34. Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, that `I say you are gods'?
35. If He said those were gods, to whom the word of God came (and the scripture can not be annulled)
5. Plural does not necessarily mean three. If God is represented as plural in Genesis, this is not 'proof' that He is a trinity. The plural is more than one. It could mean 2, 20, 200, 20,000, etc. I learned that in grammar school.
6. The Jews have no trinity. Ask any Jew about this...
AV Mk 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
CLV Mk 12:29 Jesus answered him that "The foremost precept of all is: Hear, Israel! the Lord our God is one Lord.
He said ONE here, not three in one. Right?
Anyone who uses the OT for evidence of a 'trinity' is attempting to re-write history, the Scriptures, and the traditions and beliefs of the Jews. He/she would be taking the Ancient writings of another culture and forcing it to comply with their own beliefs. In effect, trying to destroy an Ancient foreign culture.
7. Jesus speaks to the Father as if He is a separate entity, not the same being as Himself. And, according to these verses, they have had this same relationship for quiet some time...
AV John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
CLV John 17:4 "I glorify Thee on the earth, finishing the work which Thou hast given Me, that I should be doing it.
5. "And now glorify Thou Me, Father, with Thyself, with the glory which I had before the world is with Thee.
and again...
AV Mt 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
CLV Mt 19:17 Yet He said to him, "any/Why are you asking Me concerning good? One is good. Yet if you are wanting to be entering into life, keep the precepts."
If God and Jesus were the same, would Jesus have denied being good here?
once more...
CLV Mk 13:32 "Now concerning that day or hour no one is aware--neither the messengers in heaven, nor the Son--except the Father.
How could God keep that information from Himself?
Also see Matt.3:17, 17:5, 26:39, Mark 1:11, 10:18, 15:34, Lk 3:22, 23:46, John 5:30, 14:28, 20:17, 1Cor.11:3, Col 3:1, 1Tim. 2:5
8. Oh yeah. The word 'trinity' is absent from the Scriptures.
I never tire of writing that.
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3/14/2017 9:19:48 AM |
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a_nubian
Columbus, OH
53, joined Jan. 2011
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I find the responses interesting because of the various verses one pointing to Jesus Himself, many addressing that it was God the Father.
Here's one that seem to indicate that it was the Holy Spirit.
Romans 8:11
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth (5723) in you.
So far I would lean with the Father raising Jesus from the dead.
However; it makes me wonder if all Three had a part in Jesus being raised from the dead.
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3/14/2017 9:43:57 AM |
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a_nubian
Columbus, OH
53, joined Jan. 2011
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I find the responses interesting because of the various verses one pointing to Jesus Himself, many addressing that it was God the Father.
Here's one that seem to indicate that it was the Holy Spirit.
Romans 8:11
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth (5723) in you.
So far I would lean with the Father raising Jesus from the dead.
However; it makes me wonder if all Three had a part in Jesus being raised from the dead.
In addition:
And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. (Mt 3:17, 18)
At Christ's baptism; all Three were present in the Commission and it's Anointing at the onset His Ministry.
Therefore; to me it would make sense that all Three would be there for Jesus's Resurrection.
I am not firm on this but it's how I sort of see it.
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3/14/2017 10:04:54 AM |
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freegratis
Irving, TX
50, joined Dec. 2011
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Now sure where you see Rev. 1.
CLV Re 1:8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," is saying the Lord God, Who is and Who was and Who is coming, the Almighty.
"Alpha and the Omega" are also in the KJV. What are you comparing it with?
CLV Revelation 1:8
I am the Alpha and the Omega,is saying the Lord God, Who is and Who was and Who is coming, the Almighty."
Sounds like God the Father; the Deuteronomy 6:4 One God; hmm, the CLV sounds weak on the Deuteronomy 6:4 "One God" rendering "Hear, Israel! Yahweh is our Elohim; Yahweh the only One.". (Not that I don't believe in One God, just that the CLV sounds weak here); and there is that weak inconclusive John 5:31 rendering. "If I should be testifying concerning Myself, is My testimony not true?
KJV and NKJV is more conclusive:
KJV If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
NKJV If I bear witness of Myself, My witness is not true.
Biblehub interlinear also says the testimony is not true.
The takeaway I get form other versions of Deuteronomy 6:4 is "Hear Oh Israel, the Lord our God is One God". And from John 5:31 is "we need more than 1 witness to claim that something is true. If you have only 1 so-called witness, do not believe him unless you get 2 or more witnesses agreeing." Anyway, back to Revelation 1...
KJV appears to add in verse 8, "the Beginning and the End", but check out verses 17-18.
CLV Rev 1:17-18 "Do not fear! I am the First and the Last, and the Living One: and I became dead, and lo! living am I for the eons of the eons. (Amen!) And I have the keys of death and of the unseen."
While verse 8 sounds like it is definitely the Father Yahweh Almighty One God, verse 17 hints at being the Father Yahweh Almighty One God again, but verse 18 is clearly Jesus who died.
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3/14/2017 10:05:32 AM |
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cupocheer
Assumption, IL
68, joined May. 2010
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Nubian ~~
God (the Father)
God (the Son)
God (the Holy Spirit)
1 = 3
3 = 1
The Trinity
**********
Jesus (God) on Earth
Was born of the sinful flesh.
He was corrupt at birth. (as are we all)
God (in His divine power) had to have it so in order for the 'doubting Thomas' humans to have TANGIBLE evidence of God's existence.
Jesus, therefore, was like any other human man born upon the earth. [let that sink in]
Wonder why the "history" (Bible) is so very silent on the youthful Jesus and young adult Jesus until he began his ministry? (God was showing His influence on the 13 year old Jesus at the synagogue)
Could it be because Jesus as an ordinary man on earth was not worthy of being remembered by history until Gods work was complete in him?
The Holy Spirit of God cannot live in a 'defiled temple', the Bible is exceedingly clear on this fact.
God had charged "John" to lay the foundation for the Messiah's coming (John KNEW he was coming. John KNEW he was the Messiah. John KNEW he wasn't worthy to "carry his sandals" but God told John it 'had to be this way'(human baptising human) in order for the Holy Spirit of God to enter His temple (body).
Oh, what a magnificent God we serve. Amen
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3/14/2017 10:22:49 AM |
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_ladybug_
Paragould, AR
66, joined Sep. 2013
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I find the responses interesting because of the various verses one pointing to Jesus Himself, many addressing that it was God the Father.
Here's one that seem to indicate that it was the Holy Spirit.
Romans 8:11
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth (5723) in you.
So far I would lean with the Father raising Jesus from the dead.
However; it makes me wonder if all Three had a part in Jesus being raised from the dead.
I agree Nubian. The Trinity .... All three, Father, Son, Holy Spirit. There are many verses in Scripture that indicate each of the Trinity was involved. Brashdoc's reply to this was very good in answering this. A short partial quote from Brashdoc's reply ....
Scripture states The Father raised Jesus from the dead. Scripture also testifies that Jesus Himself states He will raise Himself out from among the dead. Scripture also records that the Holy Spirit will raise Jesus from the dead. No one else is mentioned as being able to raise Jesus from the dead except Himself, the Father and the Holy Spirit. Only the living God can raise physically dead people out from their spiritual state in Hades and Paradise as souls/spirits and reunite them with their physical bodies. People do not raise themselves from the dead; only the Creator has that kind of Power.
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3/14/2017 10:32:13 AM |
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cupocheer
Assumption, IL
68, joined May. 2010
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Jesus said, "Where you shall see me you shall also see the father."
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3/14/2017 10:33:52 AM |
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a_nubian
Columbus, OH
53, joined Jan. 2011
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I agree Nubian. The Trinity .... All three, Father, Son, Holy Spirit. There are many verses in Scripture that indicate each of the Trinity was involved. Brashdoc's reply to this was very good in answering this. A short partial quote from Brashdoc's reply ....
Scripture states The Father raised Jesus from the dead. Scripture also testifies that Jesus Himself states He will raise Himself out from among the dead. Scripture also records that the Holy Spirit will raise Jesus from the dead. No one else is mentioned as being able to raise Jesus from the dead except Himself, the Father and the Holy Spirit. Only the living God can raise physically dead people out from their spiritual state in Hades and Paradise as souls/spirits and reunite them with their physical bodies. People do not raise themselves from the dead; only the Creator has that kind of Power.
Thank you Lady, I had read parts of Brashdoc's posting but missed what you just reposted and I thought he had the most comprehensive response. Thanks for pointing it out.
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3/14/2017 10:38:13 AM |
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_ladybug_
Paragould, AR
66, joined Sep. 2013
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Thank you Lady, I had read parts of Brashdoc's posting but missed what you just reposted and I thought he had the most comprehensive response. Thanks for pointing it out.
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3/14/2017 10:43:33 AM |
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a_nubian
Columbus, OH
53, joined Jan. 2011
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Jesus said, "Where you shall see me you shall also see the father."
Cup I don't have an issue with the Trinity.
The bible says Jesus was the only begotten which made Him unique also.
Jesus was Eternally Divine.
I like how I heard it stated about Jesus; He covered his Divinity with humanity.
Therefore, He was subject to all the human frailties that existed: sickness, pain, hunger etc.; as well as all the temptations that humanity has to deal with and yet He was without sin.
That's why we have to cover our humanity with His Divinity.
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3/14/2017 10:46:35 AM |
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freegratis
Irving, TX
50, joined Dec. 2011
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I have already cited several reasons that there is no 'trinity' in the Scriptures. I have heard no evidence to support this theory. I have seen no evidence to the contrary of what I have already stated. So far, no one has come forward with any Scriptures to disprove these points.
I replied to one of these, but you still say you have seen no evidence to the contrary. I don't recall my original reply. Do you know all the places you posted this? My reply is in one of those.
1. Nowhere in the Scriptures does Jesus call Himself God.
Jesus only pissed off some people who decided it was a just thing to try to stone him for saying "I AM". John 8:48-59
2. Nowhere in the Scriptures is God referred to as three or three in one...
CLV Dt 6:4 Hear, Israel! Yahweh is our Elohim; Yahweh the only One.
The CLV sounds weak here, "Yahweh the only One." I prefer the renderings like "the Lord is one!"
3. Jesus told us that we could all become One with the Father (John 17:11), like He is...
CLV Jn 17:11 And no longer am I in the world, and they are in the world, and I to Thee am coming. Holy Father, keep them in Thy name, in which Thou hast given them to Me, that they may be one, according as We are.
CLV Jn 17:21 that they may all be one, according as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be in Us, that the world should be believing that Thou dost commission Me.
CLV 1C 15:28 Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.
Nowhere in the Scriptures is God referred to as three or three in one... But you have no problem with a multitude in one?
4. Jesus told us we are all gods...
AV Jn 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
1. Nowhere in the Scriptures does Jesus call Himself God.??????????
34. Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35. If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
CLV Jn 10:33 The Jews answered Him, "For an ideal act we are not stoning you, but for blasphemy, and that you, being a man, are making yourself God."
34. Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, that `I say you are gods'?
35. If He said those were gods, to whom the word of God came (and the scripture can not be annulled)
5. Plural does not necessarily mean three. If God is represented as plural in Genesis, this is not 'proof' that He is a trinity. The plural is more than one. It could mean 2, 20, 200, 20,000, etc. I learned that in grammar school.
Like a multitude in one?
6. The Jews have no trinity. Ask any Jew about this...
AV Mk 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
CLV Mk 12:29 Jesus answered him that "The foremost precept of all is: Hear, Israel! the Lord our God is one Lord.
He said ONE here, not three in one. Right?
Anyone who uses the OT for evidence of a 'trinity' is attempting to re-write history, the Scriptures, and the traditions and beliefs of the Jews. He/she would be taking the Ancient writings of another culture and forcing it to comply with their own beliefs. In effect, trying to destroy an Ancient foreign culture.
1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
Romans 11:25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
7. Jesus speaks to the Father as if He is a separate entity, not the same being as Himself. And, according to these verses, they have had this same relationship for quiet some time...
AV John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
CLV John 17:4 "I glorify Thee on the earth, finishing the work which Thou hast given Me, that I should be doing it.
5. "And now glorify Thou Me, Father, with Thyself, with the glory which I had before the world is with Thee.
and again...
AV Mt 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
CLV Mt 19:17 Yet He said to him, "any/Why are you asking Me concerning good? One is good. Yet if you are wanting to be entering into life, keep the precepts."
If God and Jesus were the same, would Jesus have denied being good here?
once more...
CLV Mk 13:32 "Now concerning that day or hour no one is aware--neither the messengers in heaven, nor the Son--except the Father.
How could God keep that information from Himself?
Also see Matt.3:17, 17:5, 26:39, Mark 1:11, 10:18, 15:34, Lk 3:22, 23:46, John 5:30, 14:28, 20:17, 1Cor.11:3, Col 3:1, 1Tim. 2:5
I don't think any human understands how more than one can be one. Your 2, 20, 200, 20,000, etc, or a multitude. But more than one entity has the attributes of the One God the Almighty. Jesus allows Himself to be worshiped (worship is reserved for God); does not rebuke it; and commends those who have not seen yet still believe John 20:28-29 NKJV And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
8. Oh yeah. The word 'trinity' is absent from the Scriptures.
I never tire of writing that.
Neither is Christmas, but we celebrate the birth of the Messiah Emmanuel, which interestingly means God with us Matthew 1:23
Neither is Easter, but we celebrate the Resurrection of The First and The Last. Revelation 1: 17-18
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3/14/2017 10:59:55 AM |
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kb2222
Jacksonville, FL
76, joined Apr. 2011
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Why do you professed "Christians" waste your time debating questions such as this while you ignore much more important matters?
AS I have said:
It should be obvious to all God/Jesus loving and sane people on this site that it is horrible inhumane wickedness to stone and burn people to death at the stake for all sorts of absurd reasons and to slaughter men, women, children, infants and even animals in the name of God. That's not the nature of God that Jesus came into the world and revealed and if you professed Christians can't accept what Jesus revealed you most certainly are NOT His true followers.
Christians should be striving to believe as Jesus believed and thus to become more like Him and this cannot be done without rejecting all scripture in the book the church compiled that is incompatible with His teachings.
Do you "Christians" have any specific and substantive disagreement with what I say?
Are you all so brainwashed by church doctrine you cannot bring yourself to speak?
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3/14/2017 11:28:40 AM |
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freegratis
Irving, TX
50, joined Dec. 2011
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Why do you professed "Christians" waste your time debating questions such as this while you ignore much more important matters?
AS I have said:
It should be obvious to all God/Jesus loving and sane people on this site that it is horrible inhumane wickedness to stone and burn people to death at the stake for all sorts of absurd reasons and to slaughter men, women, children, infants and even animals in the name of God. That's not the nature of God that Jesus came into the world and revealed and if you professed Christians can't accept what Jesus revealed you most certainly are NOT His true followers.
Christians should be striving to believe as Jesus believed and thus to become more like Him and this cannot be done without rejecting all scripture in the book the church compiled that is incompatible with His teachings.
Do you "Christians" have any specific and substantive disagreement with what I say?
Are you all so brainwashed by church doctrine you cannot bring yourself to speak?
KB, Stop feigning an interest in answering these questions. Are you tiring of accepting answers for your itching ears in the fable of the Life Carriers of Morontia Creation?
2 Timothy 4:3-4 NKJV For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.
Start with, "Why did Jesus even become Emmanuel?" Matthew 1:23
1 Corinthians 1:18 NKJV For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
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3/14/2017 11:33:55 AM |
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freegratis
Irving, TX
50, joined Dec. 2011
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Why do you professed "Christians" waste your time debating questions such as this while you ignore much more important matters? ...
Are your "much more important matters" all the stoning and burning people to death at the stake happening in your neighborhood? You mean those important matters?
A few of us have told you we haven't done that lately. So you might want to consider your sin today and what Emmanuel's solution and Good News for us is.
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3/14/2017 11:49:17 AM |
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cupocheer
Assumption, IL
68, joined May. 2010
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Quote from kb2222:
Why do you professed "Christians" waste your time debating questions such as this while you ignore much more important matters? ...
Because we're bored and like to entice Thelma & Louise into a whine about something other than who's name is on a bathroom and do you know your ABCs.
Got it!?!
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3/14/2017 12:02:26 PM |
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kb2222
Jacksonville, FL
76, joined Apr. 2011
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Are your "much more important matters" all the stoning and burning people to death at the stake happening in your neighborhood? You mean those important matters?
A few of us have told you we haven't done that lately. So you might want to consider your sin today and what Emmanuel's solution and Good News for us is.
I haven't claimed stoning and burning people to death is happening in anyone's neighborhood. What a arrogant and stupid response. Why do you reply so stupidly to what I said?
If you don't give a damn what Jesus revealed about Gods true loving and caring nature why do you call yourself a Christian, freegratis?
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3/14/2017 12:15:54 PM |
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kb2222
Jacksonville, FL
76, joined Apr. 2011
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KB, Stop feigning an interest in answering these questions.
Stop Lying. I was the first responder to this topic question and sharenlove on page 3 confirmed my answer in quoting John 10:18.
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3/14/2017 2:32:37 PM |
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bigd9832
Chicago, IL
64, joined Oct. 2007
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(this post has been flagged as inappropriate, sorry.)
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3/14/2017 4:34:30 PM |
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kb2222
Jacksonville, FL
76, joined Apr. 2011
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Bigd, since the word Trinity is not in the Bible why shut your mind to actually "THINKING" about it and answering my question?
Were it not for the Trinity of God the Father, God the Son and God the Spirit, how do you reckon it would be possible for God to escape..."from the limitations otherwise inherent in primacy, perfection, changelessness, eternity, universality, absoluteness, and infinity"?
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3/15/2017 10:19:38 AM |
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freegratis
Irving, TX
50, joined Dec. 2011
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I haven't claimed stoning and burning people to death is happening in anyone's neighborhood. What a arrogant and stupid response. Why do you reply so stupidly to what I said?
If you don't give a damn what Jesus revealed about Gods true loving and caring nature why do you call yourself a Christian, freegratis?
Then why are you acting as if it is an important matter to answer your questions about stonings?
What is more important to a person than his/her own salvation? Or, KB, what is more important than your own salvation?
Why did Jesus come? Why so much fuss about a cross?
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
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3/15/2017 10:27:14 AM |
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freegratis
Irving, TX
50, joined Dec. 2011
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Stop Lying. I was the first responder to this topic question and sharenlove on page 3 confirmed my answer in quoting John 10:18.
bigd was the first responder. Does that make you a liar?
You are feigning an interest in answer the questions you keep posting about stoning and burning at the stake. (That was what I was talking about) And then you reiterate that it is not happening now. So in your mind, that still makes it an important matter? Then you repeat it endlessly and wonder why people call you insane.
Be clear KB, what is the most important matter?
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3/15/2017 11:24:18 AM |
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kb2222
Jacksonville, FL
76, joined Apr. 2011
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Then why are you acting as if it is an important matter to answer your questions about stonings?
What is more important to a person than his/her own salvation? Or, KB, what is more important than your own salvation?
Why did Jesus come? Why so much fuss about a cross?
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
Another off-the-wall (change the subject) evasive response. Why are you so evasive? Respond to what I said. Here I will repeat it.
AS I said:
It should be obvious to all God/Jesus loving and sane people on this site that it is horrible inhumane wickedness to stone and burn people to death at the stake for all sorts of absurd reasons and to slaughter men, women, children, infants and even animals in the name of God. That's not the nature of God that Jesus came into the world and revealed and if you professed Christians can't accept what Jesus revealed you most certainly are NOT His true followers.
Christians should be striving to believe as Jesus believed and thus to become more like Him and this cannot be done without rejecting all scripture in the book the church compiled that is incompatible with His teachings.
Do you "Christians" have any specific and substantive disagreement with what I say?
Are you all so brainwashed by church doctrine you cannot bring yourself to speak?
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3/15/2017 11:30:04 AM |
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freegratis
Irving, TX
50, joined Dec. 2011
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There is no "I AM." That is just an interpretation from your KJV.
It is time for you to concede this one, bigd9832.
CLV John 8:58-59
58 Jesus said to them, "Verily, verily, I am saying to you, Ere Abraham came into being, I am." 59 They pick up stones, then, that they should be casting them at Him....
I don't care if you capitalize "I AM" or not. The short "I am" phrase is the same in any language. No one uses that short phrase in that manner but God. And the confirming point is that after Jesus said this, they picked up stones to stone him!
When? Where? I didn't see it.
I asked and stated respectively, "Do you know all the places you posted this? My reply is in one of those."
Deal with it.
CLV Exodus 3:14 Then Elohim spoke to Moses: I shall come to be just as I am coming to be. And He said: Thus shall you say to the sons of Israel, I-Shall-Come-to-Be has sent me to you.
Who speaks like that? Elohim.
And if Jesus did not speak similarly in John 8:58-59, why did they try to stone him at that point?
And I replied to your other question on Page 7, 3/14/2017 10:04:54 AM about Revelation 1.
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3/15/2017 11:35:00 AM |
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kb2222
Jacksonville, FL
76, joined Apr. 2011
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bigd was the first responder. Does that make you a liar?
No it doesn't. Bigd has me blocked so I was unaware that he had posted first and its a trivial matter anyway.
You are feigning an interest in answer the questions you keep posting about stoning and burning at the stake. (That was what I was talking about) And then you reiterate that it is not happening now. So in your mind, that still makes it an important matter? Then you repeat it endlessly and wonder why people call you insane.
Be clear KB, what is the most important matter?
Why do you misrepresent and/or lie so much? I gave you a serious response to the topic question so why are you asserting I was "feigning an interest"? And the fact that stoning and burning people to death is not happening now is absurdly irrelevant to what I said in my post. Again, if you don't give a damn what Jesus revealed about Gods true loving and caring nature why do you call yourself a Christian, freegratis?
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3/15/2017 1:31:49 PM |
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freegratis
Irving, TX
50, joined Dec. 2011
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Why do you misrepresent and/or lie so much? I gave you a serious response to the topic question so why are you asserting I was "feigning an interest"? And the fact that stoning and burning people to death is not happening now is absurdly irrelevant to what I said in my post. Again, if you don't give a damn what Jesus revealed about Gods true loving and caring nature why do you call yourself a Christian, freegratis?
Read this again:
You are feigning an interest in answer the questions you keep posting about stoning and burning at the stake. (That was what I was talking about)
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3/15/2017 4:52:49 PM |
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kb2222
Jacksonville, FL
76, joined Apr. 2011
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Read this again:
You are feigning an interest in answer the questions you keep posting about stoning and burning at the stake. (That was what I was talking about)
YOU read this again.
I gave you a serious response to the topic question so why are you STILL asserting/lying that I was "feigning an interest"?
And as far as you complaining that I "keep posting about stoning and burning at the stake" this did not occur in this thread until page 7 when I mentioned it in my post saying/asking as follows:
Why do you professed "Christians" waste your time debating questions such as this while you ignore much more important matters?
AS I have said:
It should be obvious to all God/Jesus loving and sane people on this site that it is horrible inhumane wickedness to stone and burn people to death at the stake for all sorts of absurd reasons and to slaughter men, women, children, infants and even animals in the name of God. That's not the nature of God that Jesus came into the world and revealed and if you professed Christians can't accept what Jesus revealed you most certainly are NOT His true followers.
Christians should be striving to believe as Jesus believed and thus to become more like Him and this cannot be done without rejecting all scripture in the book the church compiled that is incompatible with His teachings.
Do you "Christians" have any specific and substantive disagreement with what I say?
Are you all so brainwashed by church doctrine you cannot bring yourself to speak?
Well, freegratis, do you have any specific and substantive disagreement with what I said?
[Edited 3/15/2017 4:53:19 PM ]
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3/15/2017 5:51:53 PM |
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slowpoke7
Hendersonville, TN
76, joined Feb. 2011
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3/15/2017 6:57:59 PM |
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slowpoke7
Hendersonville, TN
76, joined Feb. 2011
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I haven't claimed stoning and burning people to death is happening in anyone's neighborhood. What a arrogant and stupid response. Why do you reply so stupidly to what I said?
If you don't give a damn what Jesus revealed about Gods true loving and caring nature why do you call yourself a Christian, freegratis?
Then why are you acting as if it is an important matter to answer your questions about stonings?
What is more important to a person than his/her own salvation? Or, KB, what is more important than your own salvation?
Why did Jesus come? Why so much fuss about a cross?
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
Good point freegratis - For kb to ignore scriptures such as (Matthew 26:28) and (1 Corinthians 1:18) that speaks about Jesus shedding His blood and the cross then it sure looks like kb does not give a damn when it comes to something as important as his own salvation.
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3/15/2017 7:10:04 PM |
Who Raised Jesus From The Dead? | Page 2 |
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kb2222
Jacksonville, FL
76, joined Apr. 2011
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Why do you hide behind your block to spew out your accusations, slowpoke?
If you were truly concerned with your salvation you would act like a Christian cognizant of the teachings of Jesus and cease to assert God/Jesus is some kind of a murderous blood thirsty psychopath who orders man to stone and burn people to death at the stake for all sorts of absurd reasons.
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3/15/2017 8:25:53 PM |
Who Raised Jesus From The Dead? | Page 2 |
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brashdoc
Chehalis, WA
64, joined Aug. 2008
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Thank you ladybug and Rich (for your good thoughts on Jesus as God and the Scriptural truth of the Trinity) and thank you freegratis. You all are a blessing to my heart. And yes freegratis, I did indeed understand what your post was all about. Plainly the Scripture shows all three Persons of the Triune God raised Jesus from the dead.
But you have others seeking to disrespect & trying to sidetrack you & others from the real purpose of your post, EVEN AFTER YOU EXPLAINED TO THEM THE PURPOSE! If they get worse & they will as further posts in your topic shows (& years of this on DHU--they haven't changed), I suggest you put them on ignore. It is a waste of your & our time to continue to give them space in our topics to promote error & play their games. That is what I am going to do again to a certain individual after I answer his disrespectful & selectively divisive post toward me.
He is apparently not here to edify the saints as the majority of his posts show, as well as many responses from others to his posts on here over the years, verifying his denigrative & condescending speech & behavior. You have experienced it, too. Others now make fun of him, expose his errors & even his outright lying. It is sad to see--but he has brought all this upon himself. All one can do is pray for him. He tried this at other websites & has been banned there. May God have mercy on him.
I have repeatedly shown him & others for 9 years that Scripture teaches that Jesus is God, the Scriptures teach that God is Triune, that hell is in the Scriptures, etc. It has shown to be a waste of time but for the grace of God. He makes straw man arguments that tear apart those of his own making & is selective in his statements . He has many in his posts in your OP but I will limit them to his post to me.
Quote: "Perhaps the brash-quack is giving us interpretations of Scripture rather than Scripture itself. This verse really doesn't say who raised Jesus from among the dead (Job 19:25; Dan 12:2)."
First of all, he shows he has no desire to dialogue with myself. He chooses, instead, to use many illogical fallacies. He uses name calling, committing his most infamous pattern of addressing people on this forum with the 'ad hominem' illogical fallacy, attacking the person & also the 'red herring' fallacy of misdirecting the argument. Thirdly, he commits the illogical fallacy of erecting a 'strawman argument' only selectively choosing Scriptures or deleting them from what I wrote down to make the strawman.
#1: premiss: These few Scriptures do not state who raised Jesus from the dead
#2: conclusion: the 'quack' as he calls me is in error & doesn't know what he is talking about.
What he failed to do is--ignore or not include what I ACTUALLY WROTE or completely missed the point when he quoted me:
Quote: "God the Father raised Jesus out from among the rest of the dead...AND IT WAS PROPHESIED BY THE PROPHETS BEFOREHAND, PREDICTING AND VERIFYING THIS FUTURE REALITY AND WILL RAISE OTHER PEOPLE FROM THE DEAD (i.e. Jesus and others rising from the dead which was one of the issues addressed throughout my posts)
That was my point in my post but he ignored the second half totally (either deliberately or ignorantly, God knows) & erected a strawman argument fallacy instead. Those verses he selectively chose to make his argument were simply what was prophesied, which is what I plainly stated in my quote: verses listed above were on BOTH prophetic passages of resurrection AND passages about Jesus' being resurrected by the God & Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
He then notices a passage I made a typo on. If he was truly wanting to dialogue as most others do, he would have pointed it out, asked if this was a typo, as this isn't a passage in Scripture. But he didn't. Instead he uses this to further try & discredit me as some supposed quack. I meant to type Ps 16:9-11 but hit a 5 instead. Anyone familiar with Scripture could probably figure that one out--as Psalm 16:9-11 is a famous prophetic passage on Christ's incorruptible resurrection from the dead.
He then uses another illogical fallacy called 'switch & bait' to get people to think that something done THROUGH someone is totally different than something done BY someone. Anyone can see how illogical & ridiculous this fallacious argument is! Almost anyone stopping to look at this, wouldn't fall for this--he must think most of us are stupid not see it. He makes it 'appear' scholarly with a simplistic word study from Strong's that supposedly legitimizes his INCONCLUSIVE summary. He also badmouths the KJV as he frequently does & elevates the CLV by A.E. Knoch. He is NOT fluent in the Biblical languages nor was Knoch! Yet he presumes by a lone word study quote from Strong's that these translations in Romans 6:4 & Gal 1:1 are 'inconclusive.'
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3/15/2017 8:29:48 PM |
Who Raised Jesus From The Dead? | Page 2 |
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brashdoc
Chehalis, WA
64, joined Aug. 2008
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Thank you ladybug and Rich (for your good thoughts on Jesus as God and the Scriptural truth of the Trinity) and thank you freegratis. You all are a blessing to my heart. And yes freegratis, I did indeed understand what your post was all about. Plainly the Scripture shows all three Persons of the Triune God raised Jesus from the dead.
But you have others seeking to disrespect & trying to sidetrack you & others from the real purpose of your post, EVEN AFTER YOU EXPLAINED TO THEM THE PURPOSE! If they get worse & they will as further posts in your topic shows (& years of this on DHU--they haven't changed), I suggest you put them on ignore. It is a waste of your & our time to continue to give them space in our topics to promote error & play their games. That is what I am going to do again to a certain individual after I answer his disrespectful & selectively divisive post toward me.
He is apparently not here to edify the saints as the majority of his posts show, as well as many responses from others to his posts on here over the years, verifying his denigrative & condescending speech & behavior. You have experienced it, too. Others now make fun of him, expose his errors & even his outright lying. It is sad to see--but he has brought all this upon himself. All one can do is pray for him. He tried this at other websites & has been banned there. May God have mercy on him.
I have repeatedly shown him & others for 9 years that Scripture teaches that Jesus is God, the Scriptures teach that God is Triune, that hell is in the Scriptures, etc. It has shown to be a waste of time but for the grace of God. He makes straw man arguments that tear apart those of his own making & is selective in his statements . He has many in his posts in your OP but I will limit them to his post to me.
Quote: "Perhaps the brash-quack is giving us interpretations of Scripture rather than Scripture itself. This verse really doesn't say who raised Jesus from among the dead (Job 19:25; Dan 12:2)."
First of all, he shows he has no desire to dialogue with myself. He chooses, instead, to use many illogical fallacies. He uses name calling, committing his most infamous pattern of addressing people on this forum with the 'ad hominem' illogical fallacy, attacking the person & also the 'red herring' fallacy of misdirecting the argument. Thirdly, he commits the illogical fallacy of erecting a 'strawman argument' only selectively choosing Scriptures or deleting them from what I wrote down to make the strawman.
#1: premiss: These few Scriptures do not state who raised Jesus from the dead
#2: conclusion: the 'quack' as he calls me is in error & doesn't know what he is talking about.
What he failed to do is--ignore or not include what I ACTUALLY WROTE or completely missed the point when he quoted me:
Quote: "God the Father raised Jesus out from among the rest of the dead...AND IT WAS PROPHESIED BY THE PROPHETS BEFOREHAND, PREDICTING AND VERIFYING THIS FUTURE REALITY AND WILL RAISE OTHER PEOPLE FROM THE DEAD (i.e. Jesus and others rising from the dead which was one of the issues addressed throughout my posts)
That was my point in my post but he ignored the second half (either deliberately or ignorantly, God knows) & erected a strawman argument instead. Those verses he selectively chose to make his argument were simply what was prophesied, which is what I plainly stated in my quote: verses listed above were on BOTH prophetic passages of resurrection AND passages about Jesus' being resurrected by the God & Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
He then notices a typo passage I made. If he wanted to dialogue as most do, he would have pointed it out, asked if this was a typo, as this isn't a passage in Scripture. But he didn't. Instead he uses this to further try & discredit me as some supposed quack. I meant to type Ps 16:9-11 but hit a 5 instead. Anyone familiar with Scripture could probably figure that one out--as Psalm 16:9-11--a famous prophetic passage on Christ's incorruptible resurrection from the dead.
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3/15/2017 8:42:04 PM |
Who Raised Jesus From The Dead? | Page 2 |
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brashdoc
Chehalis, WA
64, joined Aug. 2008
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(continued) He then uses another illogical fallacy called 'switch & bait' to get people to think that something done THROUGH someone is totally different than something done BY someone. Anyone can see how illogical & ridiculous this fallacious argument is! Almost anyone stopping to look at this, wouldn't fall for this--he must think most of us are stupid not see it. He makes it 'appear' scholarly with a simplistic word study from Strong's that supposedly legitimizes his INCONCLUSIVE summary. He also discredits the KJV as he frequently does & elevates the CLV by A.E. Knoch. He is NOT fluent in the Biblical languages nor was Knoch! Yet he presumes by a lone word study quote from Strong's that these translations in Romans 6:4 & Gal 1:1 are 'inconclusive.'
The one on Galatians 1:1 is EASILY REFUTABLE & I am surprised he even tried to pass this off as if people are stupid & wouldn't notice what he craftedly did! He says: "Galatians 1:1. Again, the word "through" (dia) is used. Again the KJV uses the word "by." Not conclusive."
Gal 1:1 YLT Paul, an apostle--not from men, nor THROUGH man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father Who did raise him out of the dead.
The word through (or by) has NOTHING to do with the meaning of the passage above that plainly states GOD THE FATHER RAISED HIM (JESUS) FROM THE DEAD. The word through or by, depending on translation refers to who authorized Paul as an apostle NOT about who raised who from the dead! This is how far this poster will go to twist the Scripture, try to change the meaning & denigrate the Scriptural teaching of the Trinity at the same time. (Comparing the 38 translations below on this verse also shows that THROUGH & BY are synonymous & doesn't change the meaning of the passage at all)
Again he seems to think we would not catch his quote of Eph 1:17 only--deliberately deleting verse 20--which is clearly seen in my post. When one reads verses 17 through 20, it plainly shows that the Father of glory raised Jesus from the dead-- just the opposite of his unscriptural & baseless conclusion! The context quoted below teaches that the Spirit gives wisdom & enlightenment to those WHO BELIEVE THE SCRIPTURAL TRUTH that God the Father's immeasurable power worked to raise Christ from the dead.
Eph 1:17-21 The God of our Lord Jesus Christ, THE FATHER OF GLORY, may give you the Spirit of wisdom & of revelation in the knowledge of Him, 18having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, so that you may know what is the hope to which He has called you, what are the riches of His glorious inheritance in the saints, 19and what is the IMMEASURABLE GREATNESS OF HIS POWER toward us who believe, according to the WORKING OF HIS GREAT MIGHT 20 THAT HE WORKED IN CHRIST WHEN HE RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD & seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21far above all rule, authority, power & dominion & above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.
Notice also that he is slyly trying to do 2 things: blaspheme & ridicule God the Father & deny/discredit the Trinity! He is trying to do what the devil does: doubt & discredit the Word of God, seeking to show that our heavenly Father--GOD THE FATHER--DIDN'T HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH RAISING His only Begotten Son (possessing the SAME NATURE as God the Father). Israel was called God's son by the nature of creation; the church & body of Christ made up of Christian believers are sons by virtue of adoption. However, Jesus Christ possesses the very same nature (Phil 2:5-11; Heb 1:1-3; & essence of being as God the Father, plainly making Him God & Deity.
He also vainly tries to make people 'believe' His single word study cancels all the other verses that repeatedly state the actual Scriptural truth: God the Father or the God & Father of our Lord Jesus Christ are synonymously used for one of the persons of the Trinity, as most people recognize. His one lone vain attempt to discredit this term synonymous with the Trinity falls flat.
I can show many verses on this also. (John 6:27; 2 Cor 1:3; 11:31; Gal 1:1,3; Eph 1:3; 4:6; 6:23; Phil 2:11; I Thess 1:1; I Tim 1:2; Titus 1:4; I Pet 1:2,3; 2 Pet 1:17; 2 John 1:3; Jude 1:1; etc.) as well as verses on Jesus calling God His Father (Mt 7:21; 8:21; 10:32,33; 11:27; 12:50; 16:17; 18:10,19; 20:23; 25:34; 26:29,39; 26:53; Lk 2:49; 10:22; 22:29; 24:49; Jn 2:16; 5:17, 43; 6:32,65; 8:19,28,38,49,54; 10:17-37; 12:26; 14:2-28; Jn 15:1,8,10,15,23,24; 16:10: 18:11; 20:17,21; Rev 2:27; 3:5,21, etc.).
God ceased from His works of creation but God has continually not stopped from His work of sustaining His creation. The Scribes of Scripture, the strict Pharisees & rulers of the Jewish people PLAINLY RECOGNIZED Jesus' own truthful statements & claim that by calling God His own Father & working in sustaining creation in exactly the same way as the Father--in raising the dead & giving them life & no one snatching them out of His hand just as not snatching them out of the Father's hand & in honoring God the Son in exactly the same manner as honoring God the Father in all these things --that Jesus indeed was claiming that He IS EQUAL WITH GOD HIMSELF, His true Son by nature, glory & power.
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