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Luke 16:22
that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom:
Basically Jesus was using a known fable among the Jews to illustrate his point.
Luke 16:24
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me,...
God the Father is the only one we are to cry to. Abraham was a sinner just like us. He is not the one to decide one's eternity.
Everything done at that time by Jesus was not recorded for us to read. Why would everything done by Lazarus be recorded?
The biblical record of anyone being raised from the dead indicates that not one person every every shared what they experience while they were dead.
If Lazarus had gone to Heaven what a cruel thing Jesus did to bring him back to this earth.
If Lazarus had gone to Hell what a merciful thing Jesus did for Lazarus; and yet Lazarus would have given no thanks?
Sleep of Death
Prior to raising Lazarus from the dead Jesus said,
"These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.(Jn 11:11-14)
Jesus was in harmony with what Scripture had already said about death as being a sleep.
Psalm 13:3
Consider and answer me, O LORD my God; Enlighten my eyes, or I will sleep the sleep of death...
Daniel 12:2
"Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.
1 Kings 2:10
Then David slept with his fathers and was buriedin the city of David
In fact, what did Lazarus say when he was raised? Your argument would imply there is no heaven either
There is a Heaven.
But all sleep until the Resurrection .
Note the conversation with Martha and Jesus:
"Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day."(John 11:23, 24)
Jesus never corrected her by saying Lazarus is already in Heaven or for that matter in Hell.
Review
The Parable about the Rich Man and Lazarus is a parable.
Parables are to teach a spiritual lesson.
That parable was directed to the Pharisees, to flip their belief that they were the ones notsitting in the bosom of Abraham but were the ones in hell based on an unbiblical legend.
There is a resurrection but it will occur on that last day.
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You said: Note: Once Lazarus was raised he never once said he was in heaven or in hell.
Luke 16:22-23 says: 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Abraham's bosom is not Heaven, and Hades is not Hell. Revelation 20:14 However, I might be inclined to believe there is no eternal suffering in Hell (for humans), if this Hades is actually a temporary suffering - Luke 12:47-48, Matthew 5:26. But "The Rich Man and Lazarus" story would need to be a real account instead of a parable.
You said: The biblical record of anyone being raised from the dead indicates that not one person every every shared what they experience while they were dead.
If Lazarus had gone to Heaven what a cruel thing Jesus did to bring him back to this earth.
If Lazarus had gone to Hell what a merciful thing Jesus did for Lazarus; and yet Lazarus would have given no thanks?
I say: You prove my point. This makes your statements about Lazarus not saying where he was and not giving thanks after being raised from the dead irrelevant. Later, I see no account of Tabitha speaking after being raised either. Acts 9:40-43
I don't have any problem with "the usage of sleep means death"; a few people raised from the dead; and the final Resurrection.
Also, regarding "Father Abraham, have mercy on me", the bible records incorrect statements of real people. Why would Jesus use a parable perpetuating a lie ( preserving a Jewish legend)?
You said: Now all of a sudden the Lazarus and the Rich man is a true event?
I say: It sure looks like it due to the names being used for the only time in a "so-called parable", and a possible temporary punishment/suffering.
a_nubian, I don't know your stance on Hell. Do you think it is eternal punishment/suffering? Others say it is annihilation.
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cupocheer
Assumption, IL
69, joined May. 2010
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Jesus taught repentance.
Jesus did not teach works. Now go to Matthew and Ephesians and debate me.
If Jesus meant that we had to achieve the kingdom them we would all have to live a perfect, sinless life and no one could that but Jesus. Even (Saul) Paul argues that point: "no one is good, no not one".
Either Paul was full of BS or you are calling Paul a liar.
Jesus said to repent -- how do you do that? Call upon the name of the Savior, Jesus Christ as your personal Savior, just as God teaches us.
Again, and I am sick and tired of rebutting Luds lies and misconceptions -- James was the brother of Jesus, he was instructing the apostles of the numerous churches to get out into the mission field and seek converts to Christianity.
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
65, joined Feb. 2008
online now!
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At least I got you to admit Jesus taught repentance. "Oh, I believe in Jesus, Jesus forgives me my sins, I can sin if I want to, Jesus will forgive me" won't cut it. A person with such an attitude, and there are plenty of them, will not go to Heaven.
I once knew a Pentecostal guy who would say, "Oh, I am going to go out and get drunk tonight and maybe pick up a woman, so what I do is repent in advance." Can you imagine such an attitude?
And Jesus did preach works. See Matthew 25:31-46.
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cupocheer
Assumption, IL
69, joined May. 2010
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LUD, let the air out of your head before it explodes.
You get the big head over shot you have no control over. Stop being so narcicistic. It's un-flatteting.
YOU did not get me to "admit" anything.
Jesus told me, in scripture, that he taught repentenance. You're about 2000 years too late to be getting anyone to admit anything, son.
I knew you would reference Matthew, eventually.
Way back -- when I first came into Christian Forum to begin posting on a regular basis I made to comment that The Gospel of Matthew was my favorite book in the Bible.
Now, before I Rio your head off and stuff your neck hole full of Catholic dogma and lies, I am offering you an opportunity to correct your own "misrepresrntation" of the Bibles teachings.
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
65, joined Feb. 2008
online now!
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How do I misrepresent the Bible's teaching? Because I point out that Jesus called for both repentance and good works?
In a manner of speaking the New Testament does say that faith alone saves, if we understand faith as meaning belief in Jesus, and everything Jesus taught. Jesus taught repentance, so on faith we know we must repent. Jesus taught good works, so on faith we know we must do good works.
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freegratis
Irving, TX
51, joined Dec. 2011
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At least I got you to admit Jesus taught repentance. "Oh, I believe in Jesus, Jesus forgives me my sins, I can sin if I want to, Jesus will forgive me" won't cut it. A person with such an attitude, and there are plenty of them, will not go to Heaven.
I once knew a Pentecostal guy who would say, "Oh, I am going to go out and get drunk tonight and maybe pick up a woman, so what I do is repent in advance." Can you imagine such an attitude?
And Jesus did preach works. See Matthew 25:31-46.
NKJV
Matthew 7:22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
And of course verse 22 was preceded by verse 21:
Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
John 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
Believe on Jesus for your salvation, not for your destruction like the demons who shudder.
You will be known by your fruit/works. The tree is either good or bad, THEN later it bears fruit. You don't bear fruit and then become a good or bad tree.
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
65, joined Feb. 2008
online now!
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First comes grace, then faith, then good works. That is true.
There are non-believers who do good works. Should we discourage them from doing them? Certainly not. Will they be able to save their souls with their good works only? No.
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cupocheer
Assumption, IL
69, joined May. 2010
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Father LUD has ruled.
Hail Mary!
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
65, joined Feb. 2008
online now!
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Hail holy queen enthroned sbove.
O Maria.
Hail queen of mercy and of love.
O Maria.
Sing with us, ye seraphim, join with is, ye cherubim, Heaven and earth resound the hymn, Salve, Salve, Salve Reguna.
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_ladybug_
Paragould, AR
67, joined Sep. 2013
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... Partial Quote
#2 Bearing false testimony (breaking the 9th commandment) and using the logical fallacy, 'ad hominem': I have repeatedly in numerous postings in DHU soundly refuted every point this individual made supposedly proving hell is not in the Scriptures. So he is lying. He again hasn't done his homework. He has NEVER disproved that hell is not in the Scriptures.
 Absolute agreement. Yes, hell IS a REAL place!
Doctrine of Hell
The doctrine of hell does not stand alone as a kind of ancient Christian horror story. Rather, hell is inseparable from three other interrelated biblical truths: human sin, God’s holiness, and the cross of Christ.
Sin against God is so severe that only the death of the sinless Son of God could atone for it. We see the reality of hell when the crucified Christ calls out, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” (Mark 15:34). Paul explained, “God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God” (2 Cor. 5:21).
In the cross of Christ the sinfulness of sin, the holiness of God, and the reality of hell are all writ large with the blood of the Lamb. Only through Christ taking on our hell through His death could sinners be reconciled to a holy God. Once this is understood, hell takes on a clarity not otherwise perceived. Apart from the cross, there is no hope for forgiveness or reconciliation. Hell is the only alternative.
In this rich theological context, we can courageously incorporate the doctrine of hell at the heart of our evangelistic enterprise. Jesus asked what a person’s life would be worth if he or she were to gain the whole world but forfeit his or her very soul (Matt. 16:26). Hell is the loss of the soul, a reality so terrible that Scripture uses a variety of ways to describe it. The graphic reports of hell in Scripture — such as the abyss (Rev. 9:1-11), the lake of fire (Rev. 20:14), the blackest darkness (Jude 13), the weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matt. 25:30) — disclose the stark reality of eternal separation from God.
Our everyday witness must involve a warning as well as a welcome. We welcome people to find eternal life in Christ, but we must also warn them of the eternal death awaiting those who reject the Gospel. Pascal said, “Between heaven and hell is only this life, which is the most fragile thing in the world.” Given the biblical warnings about hell, the unbelievers end up betting their eternity that Christianity is a lie. We should challenge people to investigate intently the claims of Christianity, considering all there is to gain and all there is to lose.
Full article http://www.equip.org/article/the-doctrine-of-hell/
The Doctrine of Hell .... Article ID: JAE193 (DH198) | By: Douglas Groothuis
CRI (Christian Research Institute/Christian Research Journal)
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cupocheer
Assumption, IL
69, joined May. 2010
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Hell (SHOEL) is only a place which is a garbage pit for burning refuge in the outskirts of Jerusalem.
It is not a place (location) where people are tortured for their sinful ways. Their punishment is absolute -- physical & spiritual death.
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_ladybug_
Paragould, AR
67, joined Sep. 2013
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What the Bible Says About Hell
Curiosity about the abode of the dead is not completely satisfied by biblical terms or verses. What we do know is that either eternal torment in hell or eternal joy in heaven awaits all people after death, based on whether they trust in Christ’s payment for sin or reject Christ.
KEY FACTS ABOUT ETERNITY
(1) Everyone will exist eternally either in heaven or hell (Daniel 12:2,3; Matthew 25:46; John 5:28; Revelation 20:14,15).
(2) Everyone has only one life in which to determine their destiny (Hebrews 9:27).
(3) Heaven or hell is determined by whether a person believes (puts their trust) in Christ alone to save them (John 3:16, 36, etc.).
Key Passages About Hell
(1) Hell was designed originally for Satan and his demons (Matthew 25:41; Revelation 20:10).
(2) Hell will also punish the sin of those who reject Christ (Matthew 13:41,50; Revelation 20:11-15; 21:8).
(3) Hell is conscious torment.
Matthew 13:50 “furnace of fire…weeping and gnashing of teeth”
Mark 9:48 “where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched”
Revelation 14:10 “he will be tormented with fire and brimstone”
(4) Hell is eternal and irreversible.
Revelation 14:11 “the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever and they have no rest day and night”
Revelation 20:14 “This is the second death, the lake of fire”
Revelation 20:15 “If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire"
ERRONEOUS VIEWS OF HELL
(1) The second chance view – After death there is still a way to escape hell.
Answer: “It is appointed unto men once to die and after that the judgment” (Hebrews 9:27).
(2) Universalism – All are eternally saved.
Answer: It denies the truth of salvation through Christ which means that a person decides to either trust in Christ or else he/she rejects Christ and goes to hell (John 3:16;3:36).
(3) Annihilationism – Hell means a person dies like an animal – ceases to exist.
Answer: It denies the resurrection of the unsaved (John 5:28, etc. – see above). It denies conscious torment (see above).
Objections to the Biblical View of Hell
(1) A loving God would not send people to a horrible hell.
Response: God is just (Romans 2:11).
-- God has provided the way of salvation to all (? John 3:16,17; ? 2 Corinthians 5:14,15; ? 1 Timothy 2:6; 4:10; ? Titus 2:11; ? 2 Peter 3:9).
? Even those who haven’t heard of Christ are accountable for God’s revelation in nature (? Romans 1:20). God will seek those who seek Him (? Matthew 7:7; ? Luke 19:10).
? Therefore God doesn’t send people to hell, they choose it (? Romans 1:18,21,25).
(2) Hell is too severe a punishment for man’s sin.
Response: God is holy-perfect (1 Peter 1:14,15).
? Sin is willful opposition to God our creator (? Romans 1:18-32).
? Our sin does merit hell (? Romans 1:32; 2:2,5,6).
? What is unfair and amazing is that Christ died for our sin and freely offers salvation to all (? Romans 2:4; 3:22-24; 4:7,8; 5:8,9).
BIBLICAL TERMS DESCRIBING WHERE THE DEAD ARE
? Sheol - a Hebrew term simply describing “the grave” or “death” – Does not refer to “hell” specifically
? Hades - A Greek term that usually refers to hell – a place of torment (? Luke 10:15; 16:23, etc.)
? Gehenna - A Greek term (borrowed from a literal burning dump near Jerusalem) that always refers to hell – a place of torment (? Matthew 5:30; 23:33)
? “Lake of fire”- the final abode of unbelievers after they are resurrected (? Revelation 20:14,15)
? “Abraham’s bosom” - (? Luke 16:22) a place of eternal comfort
? “Paradise” - (? Luke 23:43) a place of eternal comfort
? “With the Lord” - a key phrase describes where church age believers are after death (? Philippians 1:23; ? 1 Thessalonians 4:17; ? 2 Corinthians 5:8)
? “New heavens and earth” – where believers will be after they are resurrected (? Revelation 20:4-6; 21:1-4)
Bible.Org
Many believe the Catholics added hell to the Bible to scare people as a means of control, this is NOT true! There is the Catholic Bible of which yes, changes in God's breathed Word has been changed adding hell. However, in the true Holy Bible, God's breathed Word through His chosen prophets He used as His instrument to write about hell, was NOT changed to add Hell. God DID/DOES speak of Hell! Therefore, you have a choice to believe or not believe, for it's your eternity you're risking. The choice is yours.
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_ladybug_
Paragould, AR
67, joined Sep. 2013
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Hell (SHOEL) is only a place which is a garbage pit for burning refuge in the outskirts of Jerusalem.
It is not a place (location) where people are tortured for their sinful ways. Their punishment is absolute -- physical & spiritual death.
WRONG!!!!
Believe what you wish, it's YOUR eternity!!
[Edited 4/6/2017 4:09:28 PM ]
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cupocheer
Assumption, IL
69, joined May. 2010
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Oh, thank you so much for your grace and blessing upon my God given Salvation and eternal life. 
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| 4/7/2017 4:05:40 PM |
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freegratis
Irving, TX
51, joined Dec. 2011
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Hell (SHOEL) is only a place which is a garbage pit for burning refuge in the outskirts of Jerusalem.
It is not a place (location) where people are tortured for their sinful ways. Their punishment is absolute -- physical & spiritual death.
Matthew 10:27 “Whatever I tell you in the dark, speak in the light; and what you hear in the ear, preach on the housetops. 28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Actually, you should still fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in a garbage pit in the outskirts of Jerusalem, but I don't think He meant a garbage pit -- except that God may consider such souls as garbage.
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| 4/7/2017 4:19:35 PM |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
65, joined Feb. 2008
online now!
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Actually, God does not consider the souls in Hell as garbage. He actually still loves them! The fire they are experiencing are merely the flames of God's love, experienced as painful by the souls in Hell.
The souls in Hell will never leave Hell. They are there for all eternity. But God still loves them. Hey, they got what they wanted---they wanted to be separate from God and they got it.
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cupocheer
Assumption, IL
69, joined May. 2010
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Jesus
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cupocheer
Assumption, IL
69, joined May. 2010
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share_n_love
Fort Wayne, IN
62, joined Dec. 2012
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There is no forever burning place called 'hell'.
There is just complete destruction....
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| 4/8/2017 4:16:58 AM |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
65, joined Feb. 2008
online now!
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Read the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, Share.
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| 4/8/2017 6:27:09 AM |
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a_nubian
Columbus, OH
54, joined Jan. 2011
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Actually, God does not consider the souls in Hell as garbage. He actually still loves them! The fire they are experiencing are merely the flames of God's love, experienced as painful by the souls in Hell.
Lud if I knew nothing of Christianity I would not want to worship a God like that.
More and more protestants and evangelicals are re-evaluating the idea of an eternal hell fire burning.
Your very statement is a contradiction to what God's Love is all about.
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kb2222
Jacksonville, FL
77, joined Apr. 2011
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Ludlow is morally corrupt and spiritually insane.
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a_nubian
Columbus, OH
54, joined Jan. 2011
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Ludlow is morally corrupt and spiritually insane.
I would not say morally corrupt but misguided. I believe he is sincere just needs to think for himself instead of accepting whatever his church says. No one should mindlessly accept what ever one's church or denomination says without thinking critically of it for yourself.
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kb2222
Jacksonville, FL
77, joined Apr. 2011
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*
Lud if I knew nothing of Christianity I would not want to worship a God like that.
More and more protestants and evangelicals are re-evaluating the idea of an eternal hell fire burning.
Your very statement is a contradiction to what God's Love is all about.
Quote from ludlowlowell:
All translations of the Bible, whether Greek, Latin, Hebrew, or English, whether ancient or modern, contain copy and translation errors. We have no original manuscripts extant.
Quote from rey2140:
BTW, if this is true, and it is, How can the Bible be the infallible word of God? It cannot be.
That's right its not and its blasphemous to believe and teach that God/Jesus would order man to stone and burn people to death at the stake for all these absurd reasons...
Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)
Kill Witches (Exodus 22:17 NAB)
Kill Homosexuals (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)
Kill Fortunetellers (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)
Death for Hitting Dad (Exodus 21:15 NAB)
Death for Cursing Parents (Proverbs 20:20 NAB, Leviticus 20:9 NLT)
Death for Adultery (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)
Death for Fornication (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)
Death to Followers of Other Religions (Exodus 22:19 NAB)
Kill Nonbelievers (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
Kill False Prophets (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)
Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God (Deuteronomy 13:13-18 NLT)
Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)
Kill Followers of Other Religions. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB, Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)
Death for Blasphemy (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)
Kill False Prophets (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT, Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT)
Infidels and Gays Should Die (Romans 1:24-32 NLT)
Kill Anyone who Approaches the Tabernacle (Numbers 1:48-51 NLT)
Kill People for Working on the Sabbath (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)
Kill Sons of Sinners (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)
...and then send them to a fiery Hell and torment them for all eternity.
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kb2222
Jacksonville, FL
77, joined Apr. 2011
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I would not say morally corrupt but misguided. I believe he is sincere just needs to think for himself instead of accepting whatever his church says. No one should mindlessly accept what ever one's church or denomination says without thinking critically of it for yourself.
If you don't know righteousness from wickedness or you don't care and you believe God/Jesus doesn't either - as I see it you are morally corrupt and spiritually insane.
[Edited 4/8/2017 10:24:43 AM ]
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
65, joined Feb. 2008
online now!
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Lud if I knew nothing of Christianity I would not want to worship a God like that.
More and more protestants and evangelicals are re-evaluating the idea of an eternal hell fire burning.
Your very statement is a contradiction to what God's Love is all about.
We can't love and accept the God we wish existed. We must love and accept the God Who really is, as He has revealed Himself.
God has made it clear that He sends unrepentant sinners to a firey painful Hell forever. They chose separation from God, not the other way around, so God ratified their free choice.
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a_nubian
Columbus, OH
54, joined Jan. 2011
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We can't love and accept the God we wish existed. We must love and accept the God Who really is, as He has revealed Himself.
God has made it clear that He sends unrepentant sinners to a firey painful Hell forever. They chose separation from God, not the other way around, so God ratified their free choice.
The separation is eternal not the fire.
The Fire is a consuming. "but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
65, joined Feb. 2008
online now!
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The destruction Jesus meant here is the destruction of all hope for evervseeing God, not that the souls would cease to exist. The human soul is immortal and will spend eternity either in Heaven or Hell.
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| 4/8/2017 6:35:08 PM |
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kb2222
Jacksonville, FL
77, joined Apr. 2011
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We can't love and accept the God we wish existed. We must love and accept the God Who really is, as He has revealed Himself.
But you say:
Quote from ludlowlowell:
All translations of the Bible, whether Greek, Latin, Hebrew, or English, whether ancient or modern, contain copy and translation errors. We have no original manuscripts extant.
Do you really believe God/Jesus is righteous one day and murderous the next, commanding man not to kill and then turning around and giving man all sorts of reasons to kill people, Ludlow?
God has made it clear that He sends unrepentant sinners to a firey painful Hell forever. They chose separation from God, not the other way around, so God ratified their free choice.
You have gone to confession at least once a month for the last 45 years and you still keep on sinning. In fact, you claim it is well nigh impossible not to sin so do you think your fate is to be cast into a fiery hell and tormented for eternity?
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kb2222
Jacksonville, FL
77, joined Apr. 2011
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The destruction Jesus meant here is the destruction of all hope for evervseeing God, not that the souls would cease to exist. The human soul is immortal and will spend eternity either in Heaven or Hell.
You are a church book indoctrinated sicko to believe God/Jesus is going to torment for all eternity in a fiery Hell those who reject His loving guidance.
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| 4/8/2017 6:53:29 PM |
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a_nubian
Columbus, OH
54, joined Jan. 2011
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The destruction Jesus meant here is the destruction of all hope for evervseeing God, not that the souls would cease to exist. The human soul is immortal and will spend eternity either in Heaven or Hell.
Lud Why does God need to burn someone forever?
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| 4/8/2017 7:34:27 PM |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
65, joined Feb. 2008
online now!
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Because God is a God of justice. God is not a wimpy little marshmallow like some people think.
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| 4/8/2017 7:52:54 PM |
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kb2222
Jacksonville, FL
77, joined Apr. 2011
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Ludlow, you are a damn corrupt wicked minded satanic fool to assert it is "justice" to burn people for eternity in a fiery Hell. If you don't know righteousness from wickedness or you don't care and you believe God/Jesus doesn't either you are most certainly morally corrupt and spiritually insane.
[Edited 4/8/2017 7:53:33 PM ]
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| 4/8/2017 10:13:16 PM |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
65, joined Feb. 2008
online now!
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If God says that it is justice to burn unrepentant sinners in Hell forever, then it is justice to burn unrepentant sinners in Hell forever. There is no higher standard of justice than God Himself.
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| 4/8/2017 10:20:01 PM |
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a_nubian
Columbus, OH
54, joined Jan. 2011
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If God says that it is justice to burn unrepentant sinners in Hell forever, then it is justice to burn unrepentant sinners in Hell forever. There is no higher standard of justice than God Himself.
I disagree with you on the fact that the bible does not teach that.
Some christians seem to take such pride in informing the world that God loves you so much that if you don't accept Him, He'll burn you forever. That's one of the reason's atheism and agnosticism came about.
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| 4/8/2017 10:40:04 PM |
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a_nubian
Columbus, OH
54, joined Jan. 2011
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Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man. Thomas Paine
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| 4/8/2017 11:47:51 PM |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
65, joined Feb. 2008
online now!
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Is God cruel for punishingvus, or are we cruel for disobeying God?
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| 4/9/2017 12:51:34 AM |
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share_n_love
Fort Wayne, IN
62, joined Dec. 2012
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Read the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, Share.
That's just a parable Lud.
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| 4/9/2017 12:52:56 AM |
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share_n_love
Fort Wayne, IN
62, joined Dec. 2012
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The separation is eternal not the fire.
The Fire is a consuming. "but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
Exactly....destroy not forever burn.
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| 4/9/2017 1:24:49 AM |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
65, joined Feb. 2008
online now!
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Lazarus and the rich man was a parable and not a true story. That is true. But Jesus did not tell parables just to hear Himself talk---He taught parables to teach us certain truths, and in the Lazarus-rich man parable He taught that Hell is real, that there is eternal fire there, that good works must accompany faith (the rich man had faith, he prayed to his spiritual father Abraham), and that prayers to saints like Abraham are allowed.
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| 4/9/2017 8:13:24 AM |
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kb2222
Jacksonville, FL
77, joined Apr. 2011
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Ludlow, you are a damn corrupt wicked minded satanic fool to assert it is "justice" to burn people for eternity in a fiery Hell. If you don't know righteousness from wickedness or you don't care and you believe God/Jesus doesn't either you are most certainly morally corrupt and spiritually insane.
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| 4/9/2017 9:36:03 AM |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
65, joined Feb. 2008
online now!
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I hereby assert and re-assert that it is justice to send unrepentant sinners to Hell.
KB, Dude, what are you worried about? According to you you haven't committed the slightest sin in years. People as holy and righteous as you don't even have to go to Purgatory, much less Hell.
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| 4/9/2017 10:06:19 AM |
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kb2222
Jacksonville, FL
77, joined Apr. 2011
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You are a sick depraved sinner who makes a mockery of the confessional and blasphemes God/Jesus with your church indoctrinated teachings. You are no more righteous in your heart than Satan who you serve with your depraved teachings about God our Holy Father and you are going to have your reward, Ludlow.
I suggest you read the following and act to save your soul while you can.
Hell is a Christian Hoax
https://bible-truths.com/23-minutes-in-hell.html
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| 4/9/2017 11:15:21 AM |
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clarity101
Parker, CO
66, joined Oct. 2008
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| 4/9/2017 11:34:45 AM |
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kb2222
Jacksonville, FL
77, joined Apr. 2011
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Clarity101, is this just your evasive way of dismissing what I said to you on another thread and a expression of your intent to continue on with your blasphemous murderous beliefs and teachings about God/Jesus?
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| 4/9/2017 11:43:21 AM |
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clarity101
Parker, CO
66, joined Oct. 2008
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"Who resurrected Jesus?"
In Acts 2:24, Peter says that “God raised [Jesus] from the dead” (see also Romans 8:11 and 2 Corinthians 4:14). Romans 1:4 (and possibly 1 Peter 3:18) seems to say that the Spirit raised Jesus from the dead (Romans 8:11 clearly says that God will resurrect believers “through His Spirit”). And in John 2:19 Jesus predicts that He will raise Himself from the dead (see also John 10:18). So who exactly resurrected Jesus from the dead? Was it the Father, the Son, or the Spirit?
The basic answer is that “God has raised . . . Jesus to life” (Acts 2:32). The Father is God, and the Father raised His Son to life on the third day after the crucifixion (Romans 6:4; 2 Corinthians 13:4). The Spirit is also God, and the Spirit had a part in raising Jesus from the dead. The Son is also God, and the Son, too, was responsible for His own resurrection.
How can a dead man resurrect himself? Jesus was more than a man who died; He was the eternal Son of God incarnate. Wicked men could kill His body, but they could not change His eternal nature or diminish His divine power. In John 10:17–18 Jesus says something that no mere mortal could ever say: “I lay down my life—only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again.” No one else in the history of the world has ever had the authority both to lay down his life and raise it up again.
Furthermore, Jesus said, “I am the resurrection and the life” (John 11:25). He did not say, “My Father is the resurrection.” He claimed to be the resurrection Himself; life resides with Jesus, and He has absolute authority over life and death (Revelation 1:18). Jesus is God. He could say He would raise up His body on the third day because He is part of the One Being of God.
Who resurrected Jesus from the dead? God did, and by that we mean all three Persons of the Trinity were involved. All three Persons of the Trinity participated in creation (1 Corinthians 8:6; Genesis 1:1–2). All three are involved in salvation (John 3:6, 16). And all three are responsible for the resurrection of Christ Jesus.
Recommended Resource: The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus by Gary Habermas
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clarity101
Parker, CO
66, joined Oct. 2008
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| 4/9/2017 12:17:51 PM |
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kb2222
Jacksonville, FL
77, joined Apr. 2011
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Clarity101, I suggest you repent and pray for forgiveness for believing/teaching God/Jesus would order man to stone and burn people to death at the stake and then torment them in a fiery Hell for eternity for all these absurd reasons...
Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)
Kill Witches (Exodus 22:17 NAB)
Kill Homosexuals (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)
Kill Fortunetellers (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)
Death for Hitting Dad (Exodus 21:15 NAB)
Death for Cursing Parents (Proverbs 20:20 NAB, Leviticus 20:9 NLT)
Death for Adultery (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)
Death for Fornication (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)
Death to Followers of Other Religions (Exodus 22:19 NAB)
Kill Nonbelievers (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
Kill False Prophets (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)
Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God (Deuteronomy 13:13-18 NLT)
Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)
Kill Followers of Other Religions. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB, Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)
Death for Blasphemy (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)
Kill False Prophets (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT, Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT)
Infidels and Gays Should Die (Romans 1:24-32 NLT)
Kill Anyone who Approaches the Tabernacle (Numbers 1:48-51 NLT)
Kill People for Working on the Sabbath (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)
Kill Sons of Sinners (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)
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| 4/9/2017 12:59:02 PM |
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clarity101
Parker, CO
66, joined Oct. 2008
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The New Covenant (or New Testament) is the promise that God makes with humanity that He will forgive sin and restore fellowship with those whose hearts are turned toward Him. Jesus Christ is the mediator of the New Covenant, and His death on the cross is the basis of the promise (Luke 22:20). The New Covenant was predicted while the Old Covenant was still in effect—the prophets Moses, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel all allude to the New Covenant.
The Old Covenant that God had established with His people required strict obedience to the Mosaic Law. Because the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23), the Law required that Israel perform daily sacrifices in order to atone for sin. But Moses, through whom God established the Old Covenant, also anticipated the New Covenant. In one of his final addresses to the nation of Israel, Moses looks forward to a time when Israel would be given “a heart to understand” (Deuteronomy 29:4, ESV). Moses predicts that Israel would fail in keeping the Old Covenant (verses 22–28), but he then sees a time of restoration (30:1–5). At that time, Moses says, “The Lord your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live” (verse 6). The New Covenant involves a total change of heart so that God’s people are naturally pleasing to Him.
The prophet Jeremiah also predicted the New Covenant. “‘The day will come,’ says the Lord, ‘when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and Judah. . . . But this is the new covenant I will make with the people of Israel on that day,’ says the Lord. ‘I will put my law in their minds, and I will write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people’” (Jeremiah 31:31, 33). Jesus Christ came to fulfill the Law of Moses (Matthew 5:17) and to establish the New Covenant between God and His people. The Old Covenant was written in stone, but the New Covenant is written on our hearts. Entering the New Covenant is made possible only by faith in Christ, who shed His blood to take away the sins of the world (John 1:29). Luke 22:20 relates how Jesus, at the Last Supper, takes the cup and says, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood” (ESV).
The New Covenant is also mentioned in Ezekiel 36:26–27, “I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.” Ezekiel lists several aspects of the New Covenant here: a new heart, a new spirit, the indwelling Holy Spirit, and true holiness. The Mosaic Law could provide none of these things (see Romans 3:20).
The New Covenant was originally given to Israel and includes a promise of fruitfulness, blessing, and a peaceful existence in the Promised Land. In Ezekiel 36:28–30 God says, “Then you will live in the land I gave your ancestors; you will be my people, and I will be your God. . . . I will call for the grain and make it plentiful and will not bring famine upon you. I will increase the fruit of the trees and the crops of the field, so that you will no longer suffer disgrace among the nations because of famine.” Deuteronomy 30:1–5 contains similar promises related to Israel under the New Covenant. After the resurrection of Christ, Gentiles were brought into the blessing of the New Covenant, too (Acts 10; Ephesians 2:13–14). The fulfillment of the New Covenant will be seen in two places: on earth, during the Millennial Kingdom; and in heaven, for all eternity.
We are no longer under the Law but under grace (Romans 6:14–15). The Old Covenant has served its purpose, and it has been replaced by “a better covenant” (Hebrews 7:22). “In fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises” (Hebrews 8:6).
Under the New Covenant, we are given the opportunity to receive salvation as a free gift (Ephesians 2:8–9). Our responsibility is to exercise faith in Christ, the One who fulfilled the Law on our behalf and brought an end to the Law’s sacrifices through His own sacrificial death. Through the life-giving Holy Spirit who lives in all believers (Romans 8:9–11), we share in the inheritance of Christ and enjoy a permanent, unbroken relationship with God (Hebrews 9:15).
Recommended Resource: The Moody Handbook of Theology by Paul Enns
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| 4/9/2017 4:16:39 PM |
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kb2222
Jacksonville, FL
77, joined Apr. 2011
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Clarity101, do you actually believe God/Jesus would order man to stone and burn people to death at the stake and then torment them in a fiery Hell for eternity for all these absurd reasons?
Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)
Kill Witches (Exodus 22:17 NAB)
Kill Homosexuals (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)
Kill Fortunetellers (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)
Death for Hitting Dad (Exodus 21:15 NAB)
Death for Cursing Parents (Proverbs 20:20 NAB, Leviticus 20:9 NLT)
Death for Adultery (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)
Death for Fornication (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)
Death to Followers of Other Religions (Exodus 22:19 NAB)
Kill Nonbelievers (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
Kill False Prophets (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)
Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God (Deuteronomy 13:13-18 NLT)
Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)
Kill Followers of Other Religions. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB, Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)
Death for Blasphemy (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)
Kill False Prophets (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT, Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT)
Infidels and Gays Should Die (Romans 1:24-32 NLT)
Kill Anyone who Approaches the Tabernacle (Numbers 1:48-51 NLT)
Kill People for Working on the Sabbath (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)
Kill Sons of Sinners (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)
Why don't you answer, clarity101?
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| 4/11/2017 11:31:11 AM |
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freegratis
Irving, TX
51, joined Dec. 2011
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That's just a parable Lud.
Is it only a parable?
Is it also the only parable where a name is used?
Luke 16:31 is interesting. I used to think this referred to Jesus' Resurrection, but it may also refer to Lazarus' Resurrection and testimony and John 12:10.
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| 4/11/2017 1:09:02 PM |
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a_nubian
Columbus, OH
54, joined Jan. 2011
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Is it only a parable?
Is it also the only parable where a name is used?
Luke 16:31 is interesting. I used to think this referred to Jesus' Resurrection, but it may also refer to Lazarus' Resurrection and testimony and John 12:10.
It is a parable.
Luke 16:30, 31
And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Resurrection:
John 11:23, 24
Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
Note: Once Lazarus was raised he never once said he was in heaven or in hell.
Plotting Christ's Death:
After Lazarus was raised the Pharisees decided to have Jesus put to death.
Jn 11:49, 50
And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
Full Circle:
Was there one raised from the dead named Lazarus?
Yes
Jesus purposely used Lazarus's name, in the parable, to illustrate his point to the Pharisees.
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| 4/12/2017 12:40:28 PM |
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freegratis
Irving, TX
51, joined Dec. 2011
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It is a parable.
Luke 16:30, 31
And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Resurrection:
John 11:23, 24
Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
Note: Once Lazarus was raised he never once said he was in heaven or in hell.
Plotting Christ's Death:
After Lazarus was raised the Pharisees decided to have Jesus put to death.
Jn 11:49, 50
And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
Full Circle:
Was there one raised from the dead named Lazarus?
Yes
Jesus purposely used Lazarus's name, in the parable, to illustrate his point to the Pharisees.
You actually point out that a few names were mentioned in this so-called parable. Abraham, Moses, Lazarus. Not just Lazarus. Do any other parables mention names other than "God"? Isn't that interesting?
You said: Note: Once Lazarus was raised he never once said he was in heaven or in hell.
I say: Everything done at that time by Jesus was not recorded for us to read. Why would everything done by Lazarus be recorded? John 20:30-31
In fact, what did Lazarus say when he was raised? Your argument would imply there is no heaven either (and not even Abraham's bosom), since Lazarus said nothing of those places. If you say Jesus spoke of Abraham's bosom, well, apparently Jesus spoke of Hell more than Heaven. Why would Jesus be so concerned about a garbage dump on the outskirts of Jerusalem?
Also, they planned to kill Lazarus as well as Jesus John 12:10
I don't see how your circle proves this is a parable. Your circle speaks of real events.
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| 4/12/2017 4:25:35 PM |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
65, joined Feb. 2008
online now!
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Yes, the Lazarus-rich man story is a parable, and the Lazarus of John's gospel is a different person thsn the Lazarus of the Lazarus-rich man parable. The John's gospel Lazarus was a real person and his resurrection a real event, whereas the parable in Luke was just a parable, and this Lazarus a ficional character Jesus invented to teach something.
To teach something. Yes, parables are not real events, they are illustrative stories, told to teach something, and in the Lazarus-rich man parable Jesus teaches that Hell is real, there is painful fire there, it lasts forever, nobody who goes there ever gets out, good works are necessary for salvation, faith alone is not enough, and saints can be prayed to. Jesus would not have bothered to tell a parable about firey Hell if there were no firey Hell.
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| 4/12/2017 8:54:57 PM |
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a_nubian
Columbus, OH
54, joined Jan. 2011
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Freegratis
You actually point out that a few names were mentioned in this so-called parable. Abraham, Moses, Lazarus. Not just Lazarus. Do any other parables mention names other than "God"? Isn't that interesting?
You said: Note: Once Lazarus was raised he never once said he was in heaven or in hell.
I say: Everything done at that time by Jesus was not recorded for us to read. Why would everything done by Lazarus be recorded? John 20:30-31
In fact, what did Lazarus say when he was raised? Your argument would imply there is no heaven either (and not even Abraham's bosom), since Lazarus said nothing of those places. If you say Jesus spoke of Abraham's bosom, well, apparently Jesus spoke of Hell more than Heaven. Why would Jesus be so concerned about a garbage dump on the outskirts of Jerusalem?
Also, they planned to kill Lazarus as well as Jesus John 12:10
I don't see how your circle proves this is a parable. Your circle speaks of real events.
Parables
Luke 16 is actually a continuation of an overall sermon using parables starting with Luke 15. The Pharisees were in that audience. (Luke 15:2 & Luke 16:14)
Prior to Jesus telling the parable of the Rich Man and Larazus, Jesus had told two other parables; the lost coin and the prodigal son. Now all of a sudden the Lazarus and the Rich man is a true event?
Life After Death
Fact:
Sadducees did not believe in a life after death.(Acts 23:8)
So if Jesus told the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man to the Sadducees it would have been a moot point; to say the least they wouldn't even have bothered to listen to it.
Not all Jewish had the same concept of death at Christ's time.
The Bosom of Abraham:
[quore]Later rabbinical sources preserve several traces of the Bosom of Abraham teaching.[13][14] In Kiddushin 72b, Adda bar Ahavah of the third century, is said to be "sitting in the bosom of Abraham", Likewise "In the world to come Abraham sits at the gate of Gehenna, permitting none to enter who bears the seal of the covenant" according to Rabbi Levi in Genesis Rabba 67.[15] In the 1860s Abraham Geiger suggested that the parable of Lazarus in Luke 16 preserved a Jewish legend and that Lazarus represented Abraham's servant Eleazar[16]
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| 4/13/2017 3:22:40 AM |
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share_n_love
Fort Wayne, IN
62, joined Dec. 2012
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Beautifully put a_nubian.
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| 4/13/2017 8:01:59 AM |
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a_nubian
Columbus, OH
54, joined Jan. 2011
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Beautifully put a_nubian.
Thanks Share
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| 4/13/2017 10:03:50 AM |
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
65, joined Feb. 2008
online now!
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There is no soul sleep. The soul is judged immediately when it passes this life, and immediately goes to Heaven, Hell, or Limbo forever, or Purgatory for a time, then on to Heaven.
Lazarus, the Lazarus of John's gospel (not the Lazarus of the Lazarus-rich man parable) was called back to earthly life by Jesus. Where was his soul? It would have have to have been either in Hell, Purgatory, or "Abraham's Bosom". The souls of the just did not go to Heaven until Jesus ascended into Heaven---until that time, after completing their Purgatory time if they needed it, they waited in what was called "Abraham's Bosom", sometimes called the Limbo of the Fathers. "Abraham's Bosom" (they weren't literally inside anybody's bosom) was, like Limbo of the Children, where unbaptized infants go, a place of peace and natural happiness, much like Heaven, but without the Beatific Vision, the seeing of God face to face, the chief joy of Heaven. (Limbo of the Fathers, or Abraham's Bosom, no longer exists, but Limbo of the Children is forever.)
So no, Lazarus was not called back from Heaven to live on earth some more. Had Lazarus been in Hell he would have doubtlessly come back cursing God, so that's not very likely. So he must have come back from either Purgatory or Abraham's Bosom.
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| 4/13/2017 12:00:20 PM |
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freegratis
Irving, TX
51, joined Dec. 2011
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Freegratis
You actually point out that a few names were mentioned in this so-called parable. Abraham, Moses, Lazarus. Not just Lazarus. Do any other parables mention names other than "God"? Isn't that interesting?
You said: Note: Once Lazarus was raised he never once said he was in heaven or in hell.
I say: Everything done at that time by Jesus was not recorded for us to read. Why would everything done by Lazarus be recorded? John 20:30-31
In fact, what did Lazarus say when he was raised? Your argument would imply there is no heaven either (and not even Abraham's bosom), since Lazarus said nothing of those places. If you say Jesus spoke of Abraham's bosom, well, apparently Jesus spoke of Hell more than Heaven. Why would Jesus be so concerned about a garbage dump on the outskirts of Jerusalem?
Also, they planned to kill Lazarus as well as Jesus John 12:10
I don't see how your circle proves this is a parable. Your circle speaks of real events.
Parables
Luke 16 is actually a continuation of an overall sermon using parables starting with Luke 15. The Pharisees were in that audience. (Luke 15:2 & Luke 16:14)
Prior to Jesus telling the parable of the Rich Man and Larazus, Jesus had told two other parables; the lost coin and the prodigal son. Now all of a sudden the Lazarus and the Rich man is a true event?
Life After Death
Fact:
Sadducees did not believe in a life after death.(Acts 23:8)
So if Jesus told the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man to the Sadducees it would have been a moot point; to say the least they wouldn't even have bothered to listen to it.
Not all Jewish had the same concept of death at Christ's time.
The Bosom of Abraham:
[quore]Later rabbinical sources preserve several traces of the Bosom of Abraham teaching.[13][14] In Kiddushin 72b, Adda bar Ahavah of the third century, is said to be "sitting in the bosom of Abraham", Likewise "In the world to come Abraham sits at the gate of Gehenna, permitting none to enter who bears the seal of the covenant" according to Rabbi Levi in Genesis Rabba 67.[15] In the 1860s Abraham Geiger suggested that the parable of Lazarus in Luke 16 preserved a Jewish legend and that Lazarus represented Abraham's servant Eleazar[16]
Luke 16:22
that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom:
Basically Jesus was using a known fable among the Jews to illustrate his point.
Luke 16:24
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me,...
God the Father is the only one we are to cry to. Abraham was a sinner just like us. He is not the one to decide one's eternity.
Everything done at that time by Jesus was not recorded for us to read. Why would everything done by Lazarus be recorded?
The biblical record of anyone being raised from the dead indicates that not one person every every shared what they experience while they were dead.
If Lazarus had gone to Heaven what a cruel thing Jesus did to bring him back to this earth.
If Lazarus had gone to Hell what a merciful thing Jesus did for Lazarus; and yet Lazarus would have given no thanks?
Sleep of Death
Prior to raising Lazarus from the dead Jesus said,
"These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. (Jn 11:11-14)
Jesus was in harmony with what Scripture had already said about death as being a sleep.
Psalm 13:3
Consider and answer me, O LORD my God; Enlighten my eyes, or I will sleep the sleep of death...
Daniel 12:2
"Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.
1 Kings 2:10
Then David slept with his fathers and was buried in the city of David
In fact, what did Lazarus say when he was raised? Your argument would imply there is no heaven either
There is a Heaven.
But all sleep until the Resurrection .
Note the conversation with Martha and Jesus:
"Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day." (John 11:23, 24)
Jesus never corrected her by saying Lazarus is already in Heaven or for that matter in Hell.
Review
The Parable about the Rich Man and Lazarus is a parable.
Parables are to teach a spiritual lesson.
That parable was directed to the Pharisees, to flip their belief that they were the ones not sitting in the bosom of Abraham but were the ones in hell based on an unbiblical legend.
There is a resurrection but it will occur on that last day.
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ludlowlowell
Panama City, FL
65, joined Feb. 2008
online now!
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Three lessons we learn from the Lazarus-rich man parable:
1. There is such a thing as an everlasting firey Hell.
2. Good works are necessary for salvation, and faith by itself won't suffice. (We know the rich man had faith because he prayed to Father Abraham.)
3. Saints, such as Father Abraham, can be prayed to.
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a_nubian
Columbus, OH
54, joined Jan. 2011
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Freegratis
I might be inclined to believe there is no eternal suffering in Hell (for humans), if this Hades is actually a temporary suffering - Luke 12:47-48, Matthew 5:26. But "The Rich Man and Lazarus" story would need to be a real account instead of a parable.
Sounds like you believe as the Catholics and there is a purgatory.
I say: You prove my point. This makes your statements about Lazarus not saying where he was and not giving thanks after being raised from the dead irrelevant. Later, I see no account of Tabitha speaking after being raised either. Acts 9:40-43
I am not sure what you are trying to say. And it doesn't prove your point.
Why would Jesus use a parable perpetuating a lie (preserving a Jewish legend)?
In my last post, I pointed out that Jesus used what they knew. Their legend/fable something that they would understand and He flipped the script. They (Pharisees) thought that they would be the ones in Heaven via Father Abraham.
The beggar being named Lazarus represented the non Jewish elite. The dogs licking the sores represented the Gentiles.
The fact that Jesus did raised one named Lazarus should have given them (Pharisees) pause to recall the parable ...If. they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead
And sure enough after Lazarus was raised from the dead they plotted to kill Jesus.
The very first lie told to Eve by the serpent was, "you shall not surely die".
The pagans believed in a afterlife and the vast majority of Christianity has bought into that lie too.
The bible is clear what happens when you die.
"His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish." Ps 146:4
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