Islamic Education: Origins of the faith

As far as the Christians are concerned, their faith meant believing in the Injeel (original Gospel) and following the laws of ‘Eesa; whoever did this was a believer whose faith was acceptable to Allaah, until Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) came, after which whoever did not follow Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and leave the way of ‘Eesa and the Injeel that he had been following before, was doomed."

WHAT laws did Isa (Jesus) reveal?

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uniquecover Aurora, IL 29, joined Jul. 2012	Quote from xman7900: unique, you should be able to respond to my questions faster. When i defended Islam, I was relentless, and FAST. I even used the Islam basher's own statements against them. I even used FBI statistics against them yesterday. 1.) I'm not Superwoman. And I like to try to put thought into my posts. I'd rather take a week and be correct than take one second and be wrong. I'm sure I'm still wrong in some things I say even if I take my time, but I think the mistakes would be greatly reduced if I take my time. 2.) Would you like me to thank you for defending Islaam? Because I never asked you to. I'm starting to feel like you think you did Islaam or the Muslims a favor. Yes, it's great that you felt the need to stand up for the truth/justice, but please don't act as if it's something I begged out of you. We can all die off (everyone that stands up for the honor of Islaam and the Muslims) and still Allaah will preserve the truth for all of mankind. Now. I'll get to your other posts. Meet singles at DateHookup.dating, we're 100% free! Join now!
10/3/2012 1:59:22 AM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 11
xman7900 Richmond, VA 38, joined Apr. 2012	"Qur'aan will never be corrupted because God has promised that He will preserve the Qur'aan." You yourself stated that TORAH is STILL PURE, on the tablets, that are with God. AGAIN, if Muhammad was the FINAL messenger of God, HOW can YOU be sure the Qur'an here on EARTH (it MUST exist with God as well, just as the Torah does), has NOT been corrupted by those who came AFTER Muhammad, and BEFORE YOU? Someone revealed the Qur'an to YOU. HOW do you know with 100% ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY, that what was taught to you was AUTHENTIC? Can you PROVE that it is authentic, or do you simply BELIEVE it is? If the later, is it wrong for a person to BELIEVE that the Torah they have is authentic as well? Unless GOD himself validates the AUTHENTICIY of ANY scriptures or laws to YOU personally, you can ONLY rely on MAN's CLAIM that what YOU were taught is AUTHENTIC.
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uniquecover Aurora, IL 29, joined Jul. 2012	Quote from xman7900: quote from uniquecover: The Torah has been corrupted in whatever form it exists in this world. The pure form, however, exists with God in the Preserved Tablet. Thats' pretty DAMNING for anybody who is NOT an Arabic/Muslim (I don't mean not an ARAB), because that would mean there are NO other people of the book, only the Arabic/Muslim. Even the Qur'an says there are STILL people of the book, BESIDES Arabic/Muslims. Where do you suppose they get their laws? Or do you agree, that there are NO other people of the book, besides Arabic/Muslims? 1.) First of all, how is what you bolded damning for everybody who is not an Arabic (I do not know what that means, btw) or a Muslim? I mean, I do agree that everyone who is not a Muslim will go to Hell if the true message reached them (or they had the ability to research it) but they still rejected it. This includes the present day Jews and the Christians. 2.) Again, the People of the Book are those people who have had Scriptures revealed to them by God generations past. The People of the Book are NOT Muslims. They are non-Muslims but they have a different status to those of other religions that did not have Scriptures revealed to them. You're asking good questions and you're asking relatively respectfully. So thanks.
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xman7900 Richmond, VA 38, joined Apr. 2012	to unique No, you don't have to thank me. I acted on my own will, or was it the will of God? You DO realize that ALL activity on EARTH is God's will right? Since God is all knowing, and NOTHING occurs, unless God ALLOWS it. Anyway, I just thought you'd have anticipated my posts and responses and would ALREADY be prepared. Sorry.
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xman7900 Richmond, VA 38, joined Apr. 2012	You're asking good questions and you're asking relatively respectfully. So thanks. You're welcome. I'm not trying to be hostile, I'm just searching for truth.
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xman7900 Richmond, VA 38, joined Apr. 2012	when I say Arabic/Muslim, I mean a Muslim that understands Arabic. Since you have to understand Arabic to even know the ACTUAL Qur'an.
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xman7900 Richmond, VA 38, joined Apr. 2012	I've gotta get some sleep, but I would like to see your response to this post quote from uniquecover: "Qur'aan will never be corrupted because God has promised that He will preserve the Qur'aan." You yourself stated that TORAH is STILL PURE, on the tablets, that are with God. AGAIN, if Muhammad was the FINAL messenger of God, HOW can YOU be sure the Qur'an here on EARTH (it MUST exist with God as well, just as the Torah does), has NOT been corrupted by those who came AFTER Muhammad, and BEFORE YOU? Someone revealed the Qur'an to YOU. HOW do you know with 100% ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY, that what was taught to you was AUTHENTIC? Can you PROVE that it is authentic, or do you simply BELIEVE it is? If the later, is it wrong for a person to BELIEVE that the Torah they have is authentic as well? Unless GOD himself validates the AUTHENTICIY of ANY scriptures or laws to YOU personally, you can ONLY rely on MAN's CLAIM that what YOU were taught is AUTHENTIC. If you can, will you adress this post and we can go over more later?
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uniquecover Aurora, IL 29, joined Jul. 2012	Quote from xman7900: To unique Those quotes reflects MAN'S interpretations as to WHY God changes laws. They are NOT God's EXPLANATION. Again, IF Muhammad was the FINAL messenger of God, NO man after him can interpet Islam properly, even Dr. Abu Ameenah Bilal Philips. Is Dr. Abu Ameenah Bilal Philips divinely inspired? If NOT then his interpretations are meaningless. Am I wrong? 1.) Scholars hold a lofty position in Islaam. The Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said that the scholars are the inheritors of the Prophets (i.e. knowledge about the religion). The Prophets, otherwise, do not have any inheritors. Their properties, possessions, or wealth are not left for family (since, again, they did not have inheritors). The scholars are their sole inheritors. 2.) Agreed, we cannot know 100% of the wisdom behind what God does, but some of the wisdom is just obvious (and sometimes He explains some of it). For instance, when someone asks me why I cover, I say because Allaah ordered me to (and my purpose in life is to worship Him). But if they probe some more and ask for some apparent wisdom behind it, I'd mention that it distinguishes me as a free Muslim woman, it helps to preserve modesty, it serves as a reminder that I live my life for Him, it serves as a reminder to my brothers (i.e. Muslim men) and even non-Muslims that I do not want to chat about stuff that is unnecessary, etc. Similarly, the wisdom behind naskh is not known 100%, but what IS known 100% is that there is benefit to it. And we can figure out some of the apparent wisdom (and that's just what Bilal Philips did). He cannot be questioned as to what He does, while they will be questioned. (Al-Anbiya 21:23) And when We change a Verse [of the Qur'an, i.e. cancel (abrogate) its order] in place of another, and Allah knows the best of what He sends down, they (the disbelievers) say: "You (O Muhammad SAW) are but a Muftari! (forger, liar)." Nay, but most of them know not. (An-Nahl 16:101) Whatever a Verse (revelation) do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allah is able to do all things? (Al-Baqarah 2:106) Why would God need to reveal anything MORE than Qur'an? Didn't he get it right the 1st time? 1.) Well, the verses just above your quote are relevant to these questions. Also, do you mean the Torah and the Bible? Allaah never promised to preserve those. 2.) If you mean abrogations within the Qur'aan (or from the sunnah), keep in mind that the Qur'aan was revealed over 23 years. Allaah knew the situation of the Muslims during each time and that's why certain verses were revealed when they were. I'm going to go back to the alcohol point again. The Arabs REALLY loved their alcohol. Before Allaah completely prohibited it, He made sure to solidify their faith so that they would be willing to do anything for His sake (even give up their wine). First He talked about the Oneness of Himself and our core creed (belief in Him & not associating partners with Him (and warning how that was the worst sin), belief in His Angels, Messengers, the Day of Judgement, the Hereafter, Divine Decree, etc). Then He prohibited alcohol gradually (first He mentioned how the evil of alcohol outweighs any good in it, then He prohibits believers from praying if they're intoxicated, and then finally He prohibited it altogether). This is not because He was trying to correct Himself, since He is without fault. Saying that He was 'fixing' a 'mistake' goes against His Attribute of the All-Knowing. In fact, it is BECAUSE He is the All-Knowing that He abrogated verses or placed more or less restrictions. He knows what we, humans, don't know. 2.) If you meant why we need the sunnah if we already have God's Words in the Qur'aan, well, Allaah Himself in the Qur'aan told us to hear and obey the Messenger of Allaah. Therefore, following the sunnah IS a commandment of God's directly from the Qur'aan. You yourself stated that TORAH is STILL PURE, on the tablets, that are with God. Yes, in the Preserved Tablet. This is the Preserved Tablet in which Allaah wrote EVERYTHING 50,000 years before the creation of the universe. What Allaah said to Moses was pure, of course. But man corrupted it here on Earth. So it is no longer the original Word of God that was revealed to Moses (peace be upon him). AGAIN, if Muhammad was the FINAL messenger of God, HOW can YOU be sure the Qur'an here on EARTH (it MUST exist with God as well, just as the Torah does), has NOT been corrupted by those who came AFTER Muhammad, and BEFORE YOU? Because I believe in the Qur'aan with all my heart and Allaah says in it that He will preserve the Dhikr (the Qur'aan and the sunnah, according to most scholars). Someone revealed the Qur'an to YOU. HOW do you know with 100% ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY, that what was taught to you was AUTHENTIC? Just because I studied Islaam just a LITTLE bit and just from that tiny amount, I can see Islaam is the truth. The Qur'aan, the sunnah, the lives of the companions. After studying them, I can come to no other conclusion other than that this is the real deal and this religion is truly what is revealed by Allaah. Again, a good read would be Usool at-Tafseer by Abu AMeenah Bilal Philips and another good one is The History of the Qur'anic Text from Revelation to Compilation Can you PROVE that it is authentic, or do you simply BELIEVE it is? If the later, is it wrong for a person to BELIEVE that the Torah they have is authentic as well? I think that's answered above. I've gotta get some sleep, but I would like to see your response to this post Responded & me too (@ sleep). Good night!
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jim_a49 Bellevue, WA 67, joined Dec. 2010	Quote from xman7900: when I say Arabic/Muslim, I mean a Muslim that understands Arabic. Since you have to understand Arabic to even know the ACTUAL Qur'an. I want to point out that thing about knowing arabic is total bullshit and another excuse. That one has beaten to death, and is not valid. This was even contested onunvideo and the muslim panel was stulped with no answer Arabic is a very primitive language conpared to English. There is nothing in arabic that cannot be translated into english,' Not so, the other way around. The Qur'an and sunnah had been translated into a dozen languages, and they all say the same message. The implication here, by the muslim apologists, is when you read a verse where muhammed is raping or killing someone, he is really passing out candy. Just for someone to even say that is an indication he is lying, and seeing if you will accept the same excuse they feed to the less intelligent arabs.
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xman7900 Richmond, VA 38, joined Apr. 2012	Qur'an Chapter 3 AL-E-IMRAN (THE FAMILY OF 'IMRAN)verse 199 " There are, certainly, among the People of the Book (Jewish and Christians) those who believe in Allah (God), in the revelation to you (Quran), and in the revelation to them (Torah and Bible), bowing in humility to Allah (God): they do not sell the verses of God for a little price, for them is a reward with their Lord" QUR'AN CHAPTER 2- AL-BAQARA (THE COW) verse 255 "Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Final Day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve." Are those verses abrogated? If so WHY have they been preserved in the Qur'an and NOT disregarded? The fact that ABROGATED verses STILL appear in MANY copies of the Qur'an, not JUST in the Middle East, but throughout the world suggests corruption. Does NOT preserving ABROGATED verses MISLEAD would be Muslims? God does NOT mislead. MAN does.
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jim_a49 Bellevue, WA 67, joined Dec. 2010	Quote from xman7900: Qur'an Chapter 3 AL-E-IMRAN (THE FAMILY OF 'IMRAN)verse 199 " There are, certainly, among the People of the Book (Jewish and Christians) those who believe in Allah (God), in the revelation to you (Quran), and in the revelation to them (Torah and Bible), bowing in humility to Allah (God): they do not sell the verses of God for a little price, for them is a reward with their Lord" QUR'AN CHAPTER 2- AL-BAQARA (THE COW) verse 255 "Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Final Day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve." Are those verses abrogated? If so WHY have they been preserved in the Qur'an and NOT disregarded? The fact that ABROGATED verses STILL appear in MANY copies of the Qur'an, not JUST in the Middle East, but throughout the world suggests corruption. Does NOT preserving ABROGATED verses MISLEAD would be Muslims? God does NOT mislead. MAN does. You are quoting early in the reign of terror. lets see what allah says later on. remember, allah is muhammeds alter ego. Qur'an 2:61 "Humiliation and wretchedness were stamped on the Jews and they were visited with Allah's wrath." Qur'an 4:44 "Have you not considered those to whom a portion of the Book has been given? They traffic in error and desire that you should go astray. But Allah has full knowledge of your enemies. Of the Jews there are those who displace words from their (right) places, saying, 'We hear and we disobey' with a twist of their tongues they slander Faith.... Allah has cursed them for disbelief." Qur'an 4:47 "O you People of the Book to whom the Scripture has been given, believe in what We have (now) revealed, confirming and verifying what was possessed by you, before We destroy your faces beyond all recognition, turning you on your backs, and curse you as We cursed the Sabbath-breakers, for the decision of Allah Must be executed." Qur'an 4:160 "For the iniquity of the Jews We made unlawful for them certain (foods) in that they hindered many from Allah's Way, that they took usury, though they were forbidden, and that they devoured men's wealth on false pretenses, We have prepared for those among them who reject [Islamic] Faith a painful doom." Qur'an 5:59 "Say: 'People of the Book! Do you disapprove of us for no other reason than that we believe in Allah, and the revelation that has come to us and that which came before?' Say: 'Shall I point out to you something much worse than this by the treatment it received from Allah? Those who incurred the curse of Allah and His wrath, those of whom He transformed into apes and swine." Qur'an 2:64 "But you [Jews] went back on your word and were lost losers. So become apes, despised and hated. We made an example out of you." Ishaq:240 "The Jews are a nation of liars.... The Jews are a treacherous, lying, and evil people." Qur'an 33:26 "Allah made the Jews leave their homes by terrorizing them so that you killed some and made many captive. And He made you inherit their lands, their homes, and their wealth. He gave you a country you had not traversed before." Ishaq:250 "The bestial transformation occurred when Allah turned Jews into apes, despised."
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jim_a49 Bellevue, WA 67, joined Dec. 2010	Muslims will use the early verses for propoganda purposes, and nod and smile, when you use them, but they are not valid. even uniquecover uses them in an arguement to show how much the muslims love the jews, but, here again, he will not tell you they are void. They know it, but will not tell you untill the time is right, and that will not be befor your brainwashing.
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uniquecover Aurora, IL 29, joined Jul. 2012	Quote from xman7900: Qur'an Chapter 3 AL-E-IMRAN (THE FAMILY OF 'IMRAN)verse 199 " There are, certainly, among the People of the Book (Jewish and Christians) those who believe in Allah (God), in the revelation to you (Quran), and in the revelation to them (Torah and Bible), bowing in humility to Allah (God): they do not sell the verses of God for a little price, for them is a reward with their Lord" QUR'AN CHAPTER 2- AL-BAQARA (THE COW) verse 255 "Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Final Day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve." Are those verses abrogated? No, because as mentioned before, historical facts can't change neither can Promises of God (because He is not a liar and 'Verily, the Promise of your Lord is True.') Here's the quote again: It should be noted that naskh only occurs to divine commands and prohibitions. Naskh cannot occur to statements of fact, because such statements are either true or false, so to say that a previous report has been abrogated really means it was either a deliberate lie or an error, both of which may not be attributed to Allah. Therefore, descriptions of Allah's attributes, the stories of the previous prophets and their peoples, parables and descriptions of the hereafter are all excluded from the category of naskh. Likewise, the divine promises and warnings are excluded, because Allah doesn’t break His promises. Nor could one call it naskh if Allah promises the believers gardens in paradise in an early verse and in a later verse promises them the pleasure of seeing Him. The promise of gardens has not been replaced by the promise of seeing Allah; rather, both will happen. It should also be noted that the underlying principles of worship and moral behaviour have not changed through the ages. Salah, fasting, charity and pilgrim-age have been constant practices of Allah's religion—no matter which prophet was delivering the message—and lying, murder, adultery, cheating, etc. have been condemned by all the prophets. Therefore, the area in which naskh operates is in details of the format of a religious practice or a social law, not in the core principles. But I think I know what you're getting at. How can we say that all present-day non-Muslims who die upon disbelief after having heard the true message of Islaam or having the ability to research it will be in Hell (including Jews & Christians & Sabians) if these verses say otherwise? Here's the answer: As far as the Jews are concerning, their faith meant believing in the Tawraat (original Torah) and following the way of Moosa (peace be upon him) until ‘Eesa came, after which whoever continued to follow the Torah and the way of Moosa, and did not leave this and follow ‘Eesa, was doomed. As far as the Christians are concerned, their faith meant believing in the Injeel (original Gospel) and following the laws of ‘Eesa; whoever did this was a believer whose faith was acceptable to Allaah, until Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) came, after which whoever did not follow Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and leave the way of ‘Eesa and the Injeel that he had been following before, was doomed. http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/2912/ Verse 3:199 is actually referring to the Muslims (i.e. those who submit to God's will). After Muhammad peace and blessings of Allaah was sent down as a Messenger, they followed him. Before him, they were Jews and Christians. From the Tafseer of Ibn Katheer of 3:199: Al-Hasan said, "They are the People of the Book, before Muhammad was sent, who believed in Muhammad and recognized Islam. Allah gave them a double reward, for the faith that they had before Muhammad , and for believing in Muhammad (after he was sent as Prophet).'' Ibn Abi Hatim recorded both of these statements. The Two Sahihs record that Abu Musa said that the Messenger of Allah said, (Three persons will acquire a double reward. ) He mentioned among them, (A person from among the People of the Book who believed in his Prophet and in me.) If so WHY have they been preserved in the Qur'an and NOT disregarded? The fact that ABROGATED verses STILL appear in MANY copies of the Qur'an, not JUST in the Middle East, but throughout the world suggests corruption. Does NOT preserving ABROGATED verses MISLEAD would be Muslims? God does NOT mislead. MAN does. From the same book, Usool at-Tafsir (I'm telling you, a very good read. It's so informative): Within the Qur’an itself, naskh may occur in three different forms in relation to the recitation of the abrogated verse and validity of the abrogated law contained in the verse. 1. Naskh of the Verse and the Law In the first form, not only is the law abolished and a new law put in its place, but also the verse which contained the old law is removed by divine decree from the Qur’aan itself..... ....This type of naskh is extremely rare. 2. Naskh of the Verse Alone, Not the Law In this case, Allaah had the verse removed from the Qur’an and its recitation stopped without replacing the law. This type of naskh is also uncommon, though not as uncommon as the first form. *3. Naskh* of the law alone, not the verse** This is the most common form of naskh, whereby a law contained in a verse is annulled by a new law in a new verse, but the old verse is left in the Qur'an. Whatever of these applies, it is due to the commandment of Allaah, not due to the desires of men. Angel Gabriel is the one who reviewed the Qur'aan with the Prophet Muhammad - twice the year he died. How he reviewed it is how it is to be.
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xman7900 Richmond, VA 38, joined Apr. 2012	(this post has been flagged as inappropriate, sorry.)
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uniquecover Aurora, IL 29, joined Jul. 2012	Quote from xman7900: Now, then, if these verses are NOT abrogated, as you admitted yourself, that means there MUST be a PURE version of Torah available here on EARTH, otherwise, Qur'an Chapter 3 AL-E-IMRAN (THE FAMILY OF 'IMRAN) verse 199 in particular, could NOT be TRUE. I am at work and can't address all of your previous response, but I will when I get off. Stay tuned. Take your time As for the rest of the post, that's your conclusion. But that's already been answered in my previous post: As far as the Jews are concerning, their faith meant believing in the Tawraat (original Torah) and following the way of Moosa (peace be upon him) until ‘Eesa came, after which whoever continued to follow the Torah and the way of Moosa, and did not leave this and follow ‘Eesa, was doomed. As far as the Christians are concerned, their faith meant believing in the Injeel (original Gospel) and following the laws of ‘Eesa; whoever did this was a believer whose faith was acceptable to Allaah, until Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) came, after which whoever did not follow Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and leave the way of ‘Eesa and the Injeel that he had been following before, was doomed. http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/2912/ Verse 3:199 is actually referring to the Muslims (i.e. those who submit to God's will). After Muhammad peace and blessings of Allaah was sent down as a Messenger, they followed him. Before him, they were Jews and Christians. From the Tafseer of Ibn Katheer of 3:199: Al-Hasan said, "They are the People of the Book, before Muhammad was sent, who believed in Muhammad and recognized Islam. Allah gave them a double reward, for the faith that they had before Muhammad , and for believing in Muhammad (after he was sent as Prophet).'' Ibn Abi Hatim recorded both of these statements. The Two Sahihs record that Abu Musa said that the Messenger of Allah said, (Three persons will acquire a double reward. ) He mentioned among them, (A person from among the People of the Book who believed in his Prophet and in me.) So this means that those who were upon the paths of the true religions - the ones who did not ascribe any partners to Allaah and the ones who obeyed the laws of the previous Messengers until the next Messenger came. The Torah contains some truth to it still. So does the Bible. But even so, the Qur'aan is now our final authority. We don't go by the laws in the Torah or the Bible (even the parts that remain uncorrupted) because those laws were for the people during that period of time until the next Messenger was sent. The laws that we follow now are the laws introduced to us by Allaah through the Prophet Muhammad peace and blessings be upon him. [Edited 10/3/2012 2:23:58 PM ]
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nutsinsuits Chicago, IL 39, joined Feb. 2012	Quote from xman7900: to unique No, you don't have to thank me. I acted on my own will, or was it the will of God? You DO realize that ALL activity on EARTH is God's will right? Since God is all knowing, and NOTHING occurs, unless God ALLOWS it. Anyway, I just thought you'd have anticipated my posts and responses and would ALREADY be prepared. Sorry. all the good actions are from god will,and all bad actions froms ourselves,some may ask how can GOD gets involoved in our own actions,it's all in the faith we put in those actions,if our hearts are good and pure,GOD made any good action possible and easy for us,GOD in our actions,for all we are doing for his sake,wishing that good deed can please GOD,it also make us so happy to feel we are doing the right and good thing,opposite if we are doing the bad thing,we feel guilty,depressed and it hurts whenever we think about it. All good comes from Allah Whatever good (O man) happens to you is from ALLAH (His bounties), But whatever evil happens to you is from yourself (Your sins). We have sent you (O Muhammad SAW) As a Messenger to (Instruct) mankind, And enough is ALLAH for a witness. He who obeys the Messenger, Obeys ALLAH, But if any turn away (Go Astray), We have not sent you (O Muhammad SAW) to watch over their (Evil deeds). [Qur'an 4:79-80] [Edited 10/3/2012 3:01:55 PM ]
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xman7900 Richmond, VA 38, joined Apr. 2012	"As far as the Jews are concerning, their faith meant believing in the Tawraat (original Torah) and following the way of Moosa (peace be upon him) until ‘Eesa came, after which whoever continued to follow the Torah and the way of Moosa, and did not leave this and follow ‘Eesa, was doomed." NOT TRUE. Jesus (Isa) di not reveal ANY NEW laws to follow. Jesus CONFIRMED TORAH, and instructed his disciples to OBEY Torah. Matthew 5:17-26 Christ Fulfills the Law “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven."
10/3/2012 6:58:56 PM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 11
uniquecover Aurora, IL 29, joined Jul. 2012	Quote from xman7900: NOT TRUE. Jesus (Isa) di not reveal ANY NEW laws to follow. Jesus CONFIRMED TORAH, and instructed his disciples to OBEY Torah. That's according to the Bible that we believe is corrupted (and all of the irreconcilable differences are a testament to this fact). Secondly, if he didn't come to change the law, why are there so many differences between Judaism and Christianity? Why aren't they the exact same? And what's the point of the Bible? And why do Christians say that the New Testament abrogates the Old Testament? According to the Qur'aan, Jesus (peace be upon him) is a Messenger. And one of the definitions that scholars give to Messengers is those whom Allaah has sent with some new rules. Prophets are those sent by Allaah to people to follow the rules that the Messenger(s) before them laid down without changing them. So, for example, we believe that Moses (peace be upon him) was a Messenger while his brother, Aaron (peace be upon him) was a Prophet. And He (Allah) will teach him ['Iesa (Jesus)] the Book and Al-Hikmah (i.e. the Sunnah, the faultless speech of the Prophets, wisdom, etc.), (and) the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel). (Aali Imran 3:48) And will make him ['Iesa (Jesus)] a Messenger to the Children of Israel (saying): "I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, that I design for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah's Leave; and I heal him who was born blind, and the leper, and I bring the dead to life by Allah's Leave. And I inform you of what you eat, and what you store in your houses. Surely, therein is a sign for you, if you believe. (Aali Imran 3:49) And I have come confirming that which was before me of the Taurat (Torah), and to make lawful to you part of what was forbidden to you , and I have come to you with a proof from your Lord. So fear Allah and obey me. (Aali Imran 3:50) WHAT laws did Isa (Jesus) reveal? I don't know, personally. I don't know if it's something that Allaah told us. But He did tell us the above verse which I'll quote again: And I have come confirming that which was before me of the Taurat (Torah), and to make lawful to you part of what was forbidden to you , and I have come to you with a proof from your Lord. So fear Allah and obey me. (Aali Imran 3:50)
10/3/2012 9:21:00 PM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 11
xman7900 Richmond, VA 38, joined Apr. 2012	Qur'an Chapter 3 AL-E-IMRAN (THE FAMILY OF 'IMRAN) verse 199 " There are, certainly, among the People of the Book (Jewish and Christians) those who believe in Allah (God), in the revelation to you (Quran), and in the revelation to them(Torah and Bible), bowing in humility to Allah (God): they do not sell the verses of God for a little price, for them is a reward with their Lord." YOU ALREADY stated that this verse has NOT been abrogated, therefore "until Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) came, after which whoever did not follow Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and leave the way of ‘Eesa and the Injeel that he had been following before, was doomed." CANNOT be true. If you claim that they MUST follow ONLY Muhammad, then HOW can they ALSO believe in Torah? Qur'an Chapter 3 AL-E-IMRAN (THE FAMILY OF 'IMRAN) verse 199 " There are, certainly, among the People of the Book (Jewish and Christians)those who believe in Allah (God), in the revelation to you (Quran), and in the revelation to them(Torah and Bible), bowing in humility to Allah (God): they do not sell the verses of God for a little price, for them is a reward with their Lord." If they are REQUIRED to follow ONLY Muhammad then why would they NOT disregard Torah? Thats where you are backpedaling and splitting hairs. REMEMBER Al-Hasan said, "They are the People of the Book, before Muhammad was sent, who believed in Muhammad and recognized Islam. Allah gave them a double reward, for the faith that they had before Muhammad , and for believing in Muhammad NOWHERE in the Qur'an are "The People of the Book", who were before Muhammad, instructed to LEAVE their faith in Jesus or Torah. On the CONTRARY as YOU yourself stated historical facts can't change neither can Promises of God (because He is not a liar and 'Verily, the Promise of your Lord is True.') Therefore Torah is STILL valid and to be OBEYED, FOREVER. Am I wrong?
10/3/2012 9:32:24 PM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 11
xman7900 Richmond, VA 38, joined Apr. 2012	Quote from uniquecover: if he didn't come to change the law, why are there so many differences between Judaism and Christianity? Why aren't they the exact same? And what's the point of the Bible? And why do Christians say that the New Testament abrogates the Old Testament? You must keep in mind God NEVER revealed ANY "RELIGION". God revealed LAW. MAN created "religion". "Christianity" was NOT revealed by God. The ancient Romans codified and created Christianity (though the word "Christ" is of Greek origin). We ALL already know the ancient Romans were pagans. They used "Christianity" to PLACATE any Jews who would be rebellious to their rule. Jews of the time did not even use the word "Christ" as the HEBREW word is MESSIAH. Again, using YOUR own quote And I have come confirming that which was before me of the Taurat (Torah), and to make lawful to you part of what was forbidden to you , and I have come to you with a proof from your Lord. So fear Allah and obey me. (Aali Imran 3:50) Nowhere there does it state that "I have come to make UNLAWFUL to you what was once lawful."
10/3/2012 10:00:50 PM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 11
xman7900 Richmond, VA 38, joined Apr. 2012	Quote from uniquecover: if he didn't come to change the law, why are there so many differences between Judaism and Christianity? Why aren't they the exact same? And what's the point of the Bible? And why do Christians say that the New Testament abrogates the Old Testament? Jesus DID confirm Torah, so "Judaism" (which is ANOTHER MAN MADE title) and "Christianity" are the SAME. Those so called Christians who say otherwise (such as God and Jesus are the SAME) have been MISLEAD. I debate with "Christians ALL the time about that very question. I tell them, did NOT Jesus intruct YOU to OBEY Torah, and YES, they CLAIM Jesus abrogated Torah. NEVER. I have posted scriptures from WITHIN the Injeel (Gospel) that PROVES that Jesus did NOT abrogate Torah. This is my personal favorite (as you may be able to tell) Matthew 5:17-26 Christ Fulfills the Law “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven." YES, ALL of the ZIONISTS, DISOBEYS Torah and YES, many so called Christians do as well, but they have NOT corrupted Torah, as God's laws are UNCORRUPTABLE. Now, yes, they can teach lies, but those lies are NOT Torah. [Edited 10/3/2012 10:01:33 PM ]
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uniquecover Aurora, IL 29, joined Jul. 2012	You’re misunderstanding that verse. It does not say that it is acceptable to follow the Torah or the Bible NOW and disregard the laws that Allaah sent to the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). Allaah is merely telling us that there are those who were truthful in their commitment to their religions from amongst the People of the Book. This entails that they accepted the Messenger of God, Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). They realize that this is another Prophet sent to them, just like Moses and Jesus (peace be upon them) were sent to the Children of Israel before. And, just like the Children of Israel had to obey the Messengers, so to did the truthful & sincere amongst the People of the Book. They now have to obey the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). So put another way, the people who were sincere about worshipping Allaah and Him alone accepted the Messenger Moses (peace be upon him). Now, somewhere along the line, there were many people who started adding onto this religion, changing it (as we see now). But there were those who remained steadfast in their desire to obey Allaah and Moses. Now, when Jesus (peace be upon him) comes along, they don’t just say, “Nah, we already had our Messenger. We don’t want you.” They hear and obey Jesus (peace be upon him) now because he is the latest Messenger sent by God to the Children of Israel. They MUST obey him. Whoever doesn’t was not truly a Muslim (submitter to the will of Allaah) in the first place. Same goes with the arrival of the seal of the Messengers, Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). If they claim to worship God, they must accept the Prophet Muhammad and agree to obey him. It is a necessary part of faith to believe in ALL of the Messengers. The fact that the Jews reject Jesus (peace be upon him) and Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) means that they don’t truly worship Allaah. Likewise, the fact that the Christians reject Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) means that they don’t truly worship Allaah. These people are NOT Muslims. Here’s a verse that directly contradicts your claims (that the Jews and the Christians NOW will be rewarded if they die in that state): And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers. (Aali Imran 3:85) If you claim that they MUST follow ONLY Muhammad, then HOW can they ALSO believe in Torah? If they are REQUIRED to follow ONLY Muhammad then why would they NOT disregard Torah? Thats where you are backpedaling and splitting hairs. REMEMBER NOWHERE in the Qur'an are "The People of the Book", who were before Muhammad, instructed to LEAVE their faith in Jesus or Torah. On the CONTRARY as YOU yourself stated historical facts can't change neither can Promises of God (because He is not a liar and 'Verily, the Promise of your Lord is True.') Therefore Torah is STILL valid and to be OBEYED, FOREVER. Am I wrong? 1.) Obeying only Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) does not mean we now don’t believe in the original Scriptures. In fact, it is a MUST to believe in ALL of the Books sent to previous nations in order to be a Muslim. Here’s a verse that perfectly illustrates this point: Say (O Muhammad SAW): "We believe in Allah and in what has been sent down to us, and what was sent down to Ibrahim (Abraham), Isma'il (Ishmael), Ishaque (Isaac), Ya'qûb (Jacob) and Al-Asbat [the twelve sons of Ya'qûb (Jacob)] and what was given to Mûsa (Moses), 'Iesa (Jesus) and the Prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between one another among them and to Him (Allah) we have submitted (in Islam)." (Aali Imran 3:84) So there is no conflict in following the shari’ah of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and believing in the original Scriptures. We may no longer have the original Scriptures, but we still believe in them (we can’t see Angels, but we still believe in them). 2.) Verse 3:199 basically says that before the Messenger of Allaah, Muhammad, was presented to them, they believed in the original Torah and the Injeel and tried to abide by them. I.e. they believed in Allaah! And BECAUSE they believed in Allaah, they had no trouble accepting the Prophet Muhammad and obeying him as their new Messenger. Allaah praised them for that characteristic. 3.) As for being instructed to leave their faith, no – they did NOT leave their faiths because they were Muslims to begin with. Not the Muslims in the technical sense (i.e. the nation of Muhammad), but Muslims in the linguistic sense. They submitted to the will of Allaah. If they DIDN’T accept the Prophet Muhammad and obey him, THEN they would be leaving their faiths. And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers. (Aali Imran 3:85) 4.) Allaah NEVER said that the Torah is to be followed forever. He never said He would preserve the Torah in this world. But He did say that about the Qur’aan. Nowhere there does it state that "I have come to make UNLAWFUL to you what was once lawful." It’s still changing the laws.
10/4/2012 12:03:21 AM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 11
xman7900 Richmond, VA 38, joined Apr. 2012	Even IF I was misunderstandding that verse, (which I'm QUITE sure I'm not) 1. God does not break promises or covenants. Correct? 2. In God's original covenant with the "Jews" (another term that is misunderstood, as one is NOT a Jew unless he/she OBEYS Torah), God COMMANDED that they OBEY Torah FOREVER. iS THAT not TRUE? 3. Therefore, Jews TODAY MUST CONTINUE to OBEY Torah. That does not mean they do NOT accept Muhammad. You tell me which of these original laws of Moses are abrogated. 1 Exodus 20:2 - To believe in God. I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 2 Deuteronomy 6:4 - To acknowledge the Unity of God. Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord: 3 Deuteronomy 6:5 - To love God. And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. 4 Deuteronomy 6:13 - To fear God. Thou shalt fear the Lord thy God, and serve him, and shalt swear by his name. 5 Exodus 23:25; Deuteronomy 11:13; 13:4 - To serve God. And ye shall serve the Lord your God, and he shall bless thy bread, and thy water; and I will take sickness away from the midst of thee. 6 Deuteronomy 10:20 - To cleave to God. Thou shalt fear the Lord thy God; him shalt thou serve, and to him shalt thou cleave, and swear by his name. 7 Deuteronomy 10:20 - On taking an oath by God's Name. Thou shalt fear the Lord thy God; him shalt thou serve, and to him shalt thou cleave, and swear by his name. 8 Deuteronomy 28:9 - On walking in God's ways. The Lord shall establish thee an holy people unto himself, as he hath sworn unto thee, if thou shalt keep the commandments of the Lord thy God, and walk in his ways. 9 Leviticus 22:32 - On Sanctifying God's Name. Neither shall ye profane my holy name; but I will be hallowed among the children of Israel: I am the Lord which hallow you, 10 Deuteronomy 6:7 - On reciting the Sh'ma each morning and evening. And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
10/4/2012 12:25:49 AM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 11
uniquecover Aurora, IL 29, joined Jul. 2012	Quote from xman7900: 1. God does not break promises or covenants. Correct? Agreed. 2. In God's original covenant with the "Jews" (another term that is misunderstood, as one is NOT a Jew unless he/she OBEYS Torah), God COMMANDED that they OBEY Torah FOREVER. iS THAT not TRUE? 1.) You're assuming that I take whatever is in the Torah to be uncorrupted. I don't. 2.) When I use the term 'Jew', I may be using it to mean different things. One aspect is the modern-day Jews. If they die upon their beliefs after the message of Islaam reached them, they're going to Hell. The other are the followers of Moses (peace be upon him). I call them 'Jews' for the sake of convenience (to differentiate), but in reality they were Muslims. They're the ones who will go to Paradise. 3.) One cannot be a true follower of Prophets Moses and Jesus today without accepting Prophet Muhammad as the seal of the Messengers AND the Qur'aan as the Scripture that abrogates that which came before it. 3. Therefore, Jews TODAY MUST CONTINUE to OBEY Torah. That does not mean they do NOT accept Muhammad. According to you who believes that the original Torah is still intact and that's what Allaah commanded (to obey the Torah and disregard any other Messengers who come with new laws). But, again, that's not what Islaam teaches. If the Jews were TRULY worshippers of Allaah, they would follow the Islaamic laws that have been sent down to us through Prophet Muhammad. You tell me which of these original laws of Moses are abrogated. God knows best. I've already covered what can and can't be abrogated in my previous posts (i.e. the quote from Usool at-Tafseer). [Edited 10/4/2012 12:27:42 AM ]
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xman7900 Richmond, VA 38, joined Apr. 2012	If the Jews were TRULY worshippers of Allaah, they would follow the Islaamic laws that have been sent down to us through Prophet Muhammad. How do they differ? What EXACTLY are the NEW laws that Muhammad revealed? Can you provide a COMPLETE listing of them? I would very much like to see such a list.
10/4/2012 12:36:01 AM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 11
xman7900 Richmond, VA 38, joined Apr. 2012	and you're backpedaling. You have ALREADY admitted that God does not lie, break promises, or covenants. The covenants made with the "Jews" is NOT null or void. It is binding FOREVER. Would you agree? As ANY contract, agreement, or covenant, there are CONDITIONS, which must be met. The ONE condition of the original covenant between God and the Jews was OBEDIENCE to Torah. I agree, those "Jews" who obey the TRUE Torah, are in fact Muslims. [Edited 10/4/2012 12:36:47 AM ]
10/4/2012 12:49:08 AM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 11
uniquecover Aurora, IL 29, joined Jul. 2012	Quote from xman7900: How do they differ? What EXACTLY are the NEW laws that Muhammad revealed? Can you provide a COMPLETE listing of them? I would very much like to see such a list. God knows best because we no longer have the original Torah so I can't see what has been changed and what hasn't in terms of laws. But two examples off the top of my head are changing the direction of prayer and the 5 daily mandatory prayers. And it's not what Muhammad (peace and blessings of God be upon him) revealed, but what Allaah revealed. You have ALREADY admitted that God does not lie, break promises, or covenants. 'Admit' sounds so negative and it sounds like I did something I didn't want to do. But, anyways, Allaah does not break His promises, lie, etc. The covenants made with the "Jews" is NOT null or void. It is binding FOREVER. Would you agree? As ANY contract, agreement, or covenant, there are CONDITIONS, which must be met. 1.) If Allaah made a promise to them, then He will fulfill that promise so long as they held their end of the deal (Allaah tells us that many Jews didn't uphold it, though, so they will no longer be getting what the covenant promised those who obeyed Allaah). 2.) Allaah never told them that the Torah would contain the last laws for them to follow. The Torah was just for that specific nation up until the next Messenger was sent. Anyone who TRULY followed the Torah would then follow Jesus (peace be upon him) and the Injeel (and no longer be held to all of the laws in the Torah - only those that God revealed to be continued for that time in the Injeel).
10/4/2012 1:03:34 AM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 11
uniquecover Aurora, IL 29, joined Jul. 2012	ok, I'm sleepy. Good night
10/4/2012 1:06:58 AM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 11
xman7900 Richmond, VA 38, joined Apr. 2012	The Injeel (Gospel) was written AFTER Jesus died. Jesus did NOT reveal any new laws. He said himself that he came to FULFIL Torah, in its ENTIRETY. The direction one faces for prayer (Qibla) was NOT a requirement for the Jews, simply a recommendation. It was not part of Torah.
10/4/2012 1:07:13 AM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 11
xman7900 Richmond, VA 38, joined Apr. 2012	Good night
10/4/2012 5:58:17 AM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 11
sharenlove Fort Wayne, IN 61, joined Oct. 2009	asanb: I want to thank Louie and Jim and others who have inspired me to learn more about Islam. In the debate over the truth of Islamic history, the arguments over the Prophet Mohammed pointed out my own ignorance of Islam and its foundations. I have been amazed at the number of Christian sponsored sites that are devoted to educating the public in a critical way about the Dangers and Fallacies of Islam. So much effort! I wonder what it is they fear. It was difficult to find sources of unbiased information. I was able to find some material that I found most helpful in explaining the foundational history and fundamentals of the faith. I’m rather impressed with the simplicity of direct prayer with no intermediaries. The concept of not needing a clergy appeals to me. I would like to share the material that I found most helpful in gaining an understanding. I am sure that as with any other religion, the institutions surrounding the original esoteric teachings have been corrupted over time, as is most evident from the actions of extremists, and I am sure those activities will be subject of postings. I hope that this material will be as helpful to others as it has been to me. Could it be because Mohammed was a pedophile, and Islam calls for the destruction of infidels [not believers in Islam]. One has to learn the difference between the Sunni & the Shi'ite [Shia] Muslim, as well as their 1,500 year fight between these 2 groups before one can truly understand Islam. There is no "moderate " Muslim. If they are truly Muslim they must follow the Qu'ran, the Sunna [Hadith & Sira], and the Reliance of the Traveller [Sharia Law]...
10/4/2012 6:26:36 AM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 11
sail_dancer Saint Petersburg, FL 69, joined Apr. 2010	Quote from sharenlove: asanb: I want to thank Louie and Jim and others who have inspired me to learn more about Islam. In the debate over the truth of Islamic history, the arguments over the Prophet Mohammed pointed out my own ignorance of Islam and its foundations. I have been amazed at the number of Christian sponsored sites that are devoted to educating the public in a critical way about the Dangers and Fallacies of Islam. So much effort! I wonder what it is they fear. It was difficult to find sources of unbiased information. I was able to find some material that I found most helpful in explaining the foundational history and fundamentals of the faith. I’m rather impressed with the simplicity of direct prayer with no intermediaries. The concept of not needing a clergy appeals to me. I would like to share the material that I found most helpful in gaining an understanding. I am sure that as with any other religion, the institutions surrounding the original esoteric teachings have been corrupted over time, as is most evident from the actions of extremists, and I am sure those activities will be subject of postings. I hope that this material will be as helpful to others as it has been to me. Could it be because Mohammed was a pedophile, and Islam calls for the destruction of infidels [not believers in Islam]. One has to learn the difference between the Sunni & the Shi'ite [Shia] Muslim, as well as their 1,500 year fight between these 2 groups before one can truly understand Islam. There is no "moderate " Muslim. If they are truly Muslim they must follow the Qu'ran, the Sunna [Hadith & Sira], and the Reliance of the Traveller [Sharia Law]... Islam can make the same claims about christianity. Peace
10/4/2012 6:37:21 AM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 11
asanb Sanbornton, NH 61, joined Jul. 2012	Well this thread has certainly run on without me hasn't it. Unlike some of you, I'm on an aircard for data. After I reach a certain limit, going online costs dearly. I was at that point 4 days ago. My Data reset last night at midnight. I'm back.
10/4/2012 6:43:01 AM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 11
xashax Union, NH 45, joined May. 2009	I cant contribute any worthwhile content to this topic and Im certainly aware of that but I was a little annoyed by the inference that Uniquecover, someone who does have a handle on the subject matter, was a male. This has nothing to do with the topic and was clearly being used to bait and harass and was ultimately responsible for a thread derailment that continued for several pages. Just letting the OP know now that he has returned. [Edited 10/4/2012 6:44:25 AM ]
10/4/2012 6:51:50 AM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 11
asanb Sanbornton, NH 61, joined Jul. 2012	Thx, Just trying to catch up now. I also notice that repitition, intransigence, animosity and other logical fallacy derailments are rife in this thread. Will revue tonight. I gotta go to work.
10/4/2012 9:41:49 AM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 11
jim_a49 Bellevue, WA 67, joined Dec. 2010	Quote from sail_dancer: Islam can make the same claims about christianity. Peace Islam can say the same,and does,however itdoes not apply. Jesus was not a murdering pedophile,nor does the religion of christianity order you to kill everybody who is not christian. Many did, but they got their marching orders from somewhere other than the religion itself.
10/4/2012 10:14:06 AM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 11
uniquecover Aurora, IL 29, joined Jul. 2012	Quote from xman7900: The Injeel (Gospel) was written AFTER Jesus died. Jesus did NOT reveal any new laws. He said himself that he came to FULFIL Torah, in its ENTIRETY. That's according to your beliefs, which I think includes that the Torah is fully intact and you believe in the entire Injeel (both of which are not what Islaam teaches me). Also, Islaam teaches that the original Injeel was sent down to Jesus (peace be upon him) who then relayed it his followers. The Bible that we have NOW, is certainly the product of being changed after his death. The direction one faces for prayer (Qibla) was NOT a requirement for the Jews, simply a recommendation. It was not part of Torah. That was just an example. My main point remains that the Torah has been corrupted so I can't give you a list of all of the laws that were different. Here's an excellent article that addresses what we're talking about (and, unlike me, these people are scholars): http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/159831/
10/4/2012 10:24:40 AM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 11
uniquecover Aurora, IL 29, joined Jul. 2012	Quote from sharenlove: Could it be because Mohammed was a pedophile, and Islam calls for the destruction of infidels [not believers in Islam]. No. Because in Islaam, the age of adulthood is any time a person reaches puberty. Aaishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) reached that age when they consummated the marriage. Allah does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion and did not drive you out of your homes. Verily, Allah loves those who deal with equity. (Al-Mumtahinah 60:8) It is only as regards those who fought against you on account of religion, and have driven you out of your homes, and helped to drive you out, that Allah forbids you to befriend them. And whosoever will befriend them, then such are the Zalimûn (wrong-doers those who disobey Allah). (Al-Mumtahinah 60:9) One has to learn the difference between the Sunni & the Shi'ite [Shia] Muslim, as well as their 1,500 year fight between these 2 groups before one can truly understand Islam. I don't get why the split between us is key to understanding Islaam. We only need the Qur'aan and the sunnah to understand it. There is no "moderate " Muslim. If they are truly Muslim they must follow the Qu'ran, the Sunna [Hadith & Sira], and the Reliance of the Traveller [Sharia Law]... Where in the world did you get Reliance of the Traveller from? But you are correct in saying that if we are truly Muslims and strive to be good ones, we will follow the Qur'aan and the sunnah (which is the actions, sayings, or descriptions of the Prophet Muhamamd peace & blessings of Allaah be upon him). And THAT IS the middle path. Anything that goes beyond this in either direction is extremism. Thanks, Asha, for pointing out that my posts are not dependent on my gender. [Edited 10/4/2012 10:26:36 AM ]
10/4/2012 11:07:09 AM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 11
jim_a49 Bellevue, WA 67, joined Dec. 2010	Quote from sharenlove: asanb: I want to thank Louie and Jim and others who have inspired me to learn more about Islam. In the debate over the truth of Islamic history, the arguments over the Prophet Mohammed pointed out my own ignorance of Islam and its foundations. I have been amazed at the number of Christian sponsored sites that are devoted to educating the public in a critical way about the Dangers and Fallacies of Islam. So much effort! I wonder what it is they fear. It was difficult to find sources of unbiased information. I was able to find some material that I found most helpful in explaining the foundational history and fundamentals of the faith. I’m rather impressed with the simplicity of direct prayer with no intermediaries. The concept of not needing a clergy appeals to me. I would like to share the material that I found most helpful in gaining an understanding. I am sure that as with any other religion, the institutions surrounding the original esoteric teachings have been corrupted over time, as is most evident from the actions of extremists, and I am sure those activities will be subject of postings. I hope that this material will be as helpful to others as it has been to me. Could it be because Mohammed was a pedophile, and Islam calls for the destruction of infidels [not believers in Islam]. One has to learn the difference between the Sunni & the Shi'ite [Shia] Muslim, as well as their 1,500 year fight between these 2 groups before one can truly understand Islam. There is no "moderate " Muslim. If they are truly Muslim they must follow the Qu'ran, the Sunna [Hadith & Sira], and the Reliance of the Traveller [Sharia Law]... There is a little more to it than that Yes, muhammed was a murdering pedophile, and thief, and a whole bunch of other adjectives, but the Sunni-shia differences have a different origin. After muhammed died he left no sucessor, ant his two main cutroats vied for leadership. The leader collects 20% of the booty taken in from the raids. They were killing each other befor they gained the names shia sunni, that came later. These two groups killed each other for power, for the next few generations it went back and forth. They seperated, and in 1400 years one can expect there will be differences that develope. The famous idiot ritual, where the Shia flog themselves, comes from this era where the group, now sunni, murdered the leader and his family. Differences have little to do with the fact this is a fued, like the hatfields and the mcCoys, and the only reason was money and power.
10/4/2012 1:05:02 PM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 11
xman7900 Richmond, VA 38, joined Apr. 2012	To uniquecover I guess the problem I'm having is that just as in the "Bible", there are a few contradictions in Islamic scriptures that have not been adequately explained. For example, we know from historical researchh that the Black Stone structure known as Kaaba was a pagan worshipping site BEFORE Muhammad was even born, yet he kissed the black stone. This confused even his companions Omar Ben Al-Khattab that he kissed the black stone at pilgrimage & said while kissing it what means in English: " I do know that you are a stone, neither you benefit nor harm, unless I saw the prophet kissing you I wouldn't kiss you". Then we have this scripture "None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar" (2:106, AYA) How can you NOT abrogate (which means abolish), yet substitute something? Well, I can try to explain that, but you will disagree with the conclusion. I'll try anyway. In school you have a teacher, who is usually there everyday to teach, sometimes, however, that teacher gets sick, or has an emergency, which prevents him/her from being in class to teach. In those instances, a SUBSTITUTE teacher will "fill-in" for the original teacher until the original teacher can return. The original teacher has not been fired and still remains the class teacher. Now, I want to address the authority of the prophets. I assume that you would assert that the prophets and messengers are without error. And that every word and action they made was inspired by God. That is a little confusing, since Adam is considered the 1st prophet, yet he made an error, by disobeying God. His punishment was death (not immediate, just that Adam would not have eternal life on Earth). Moses also made an error. Moses doubted himself, and his abiliy to lead the Hebrews. As a result God forbid Moses from entering Caanan (which would later become the Kingdom of Israel and Judah). Therefore we have 2 examples of prophets who made errors after being given commands from God. Do you assert that Muhhamad was INCAPABLE of error?
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jim_a49 Bellevue, WA 67, joined Dec. 2010	LOLOLOL and that is just the beginning. I can show you a half dozen different explanations of who built the Kab'ba. At least three different ones of what happened to muhammeds money after he died. The writings are littered with writings that not only conflice, ther contradict. This is where a problem comes ur p where people say intrepation, and that is the wrong answer, the writings are very plain. It's which one does your cleric preach to you, and you are ordered to believe. Muhammed was a pathological liar, and told a different story to different people. I can show you where there a half dozen equally fictious explanations for events that never happened.
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xman7900 Richmond, VA 38, joined Apr. 2012	Well she already kinda backpedaled, when she 1st said God does not break promises or covenants. God made an EVERLASTING covenant with the Hebrews, the only condition was that they obey TORAH. But later she says, TRUE Torah is no longer availabe on Earth, and therefore Jews MUST obey Qur'an (which AFFIRMS Torah) and Sunnah. If TRUE Torah is no longer available on Earth, that would mean the Jews of today CANNOT fulfil their obligation or condition of God's EVERLASTING covenant with them. That CANNOT be, because since God's covenant with them is EVERLASTING, and God does NOT break promises or covenants, Torah MUST STILL be available here on Earth, otherwise God would indeed be breaking his covenant with the Hebrews, by removing Torah from Earth.
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xman7900 Richmond, VA 38, joined Apr. 2012	I would argue that Torah does still exist uncorrupted in the Old Testament. It is the Talmud and Zohar, that are the corruptions of Torah, NOT what is in the Old Testament. What many ARABS argue is based on RACISM (just as the Zohar and Talmud is). Those ARABS say that ONLY THEY have TRUE revelation from God. [Edited 10/4/2012 1:53:39 PM ]
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xman7900 Richmond, VA 38, joined Apr. 2012	The Qur'an encourages Jews to judge by the Torah: How come they (come) unto thee (Muhammad) for judgment when they have the Torah, wherein Allah hath delivered judgment (for them)? (5:43, MP) And the Qur'an urges Christians to judge by the Gospel: Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are evil-livers. (5:47, MP) And it encourages Muslims to judge by the Qur'an: And unto thee (Muslims) have We revealed the Scripture (the Qur'an) with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watcher over it. So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed. (5:48, MP) The Qur'an refers to the scriptures of the Christians and Jews as God's reliable word. Jews and Christians are commanded to consult their scriptures when desiring to know God's will. The Qur'an therefore considers these scriptures to be reliable. Surah 5:43-48 also shows that the Qur'an is NOT claiming to abrogate (replace) the Gospel and Torah, but is a parallel revelation to them. "O People of the Book! Ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord" (5:71 AYA/68 MP). How can the Jew or Christian, stand fast by the Law and the Gospel, if the Law and the Gospel have been corrupted or abrogated? That would mean God has made his covenant with them NULL and VOID. God does NOT break promises or covenants. Remember?
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ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 64, joined Feb. 2008	Christianity is a religion of love and peace. Islam is a religion of war and hatred.
10/4/2012 5:14:28 PM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 11
uniquecover Aurora, IL 29, joined Jul. 2012	Quote from xman7900: To uniquecover I guess the problem I'm having is that just as in the "Bible", there are a few contradictions in Islamic scriptures that have not been adequately explained. Unlike the Bible, all apparent contradictions can be explained. For instance, at one point in the Qur'aan, Allaah tells us that we MUST write our own wills. But then at another point in the Qur'aan, Allaah tells us that inheritance is already designated (like how much goes to each family member). If a person has no knowledge about the Qur'aan and reads this, they will think that this is a contradiction. But all that happened is that Allaah abrogated the previous law and replaced it with this one. For example, we know from historical researchh that the Black Stone structure known as Kaaba was a pagan worshipping site BEFORE Muhammad was even born, yet he kissed the black stone. The black stone and the Ka'aba are two different things. The Ka'aba is the cubical structure you'll often see (the structure we pray towards). Here's a picture of it (the Ka'aba is what's covered in black cloth in the center): Abraham and his son Isma'il (Ishmael) peace be upon them were commanded by God to build the Ka'aba and make that area a place of worship (for Allaah alone). And (remember) when Ibrahim (Abraham) and (his son) Isma'il (Ishmael) were raising the foundations of the House (the Ka'bah at Makkah) , (saying), "Our Lord! Accept (this service) from us. Verily! You are the All-Hearer, the All-Knower." (Al-Baqarah 2:127) Afterwards, people starting putting their idols there and worshipping them instead of Allaah. When the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah) was sent as a Messenger, he was commanded to smash the idols (which he did) and pray there to Allaah as was the original purpose of Abraham's building of the Ka'aba. So all he did was return it back to the initial purpose of the site. The black stone, on the other hand, is this: It is a stone that Allaah sent from Paradise. When it came it was white but the sins of mankind have turned it black (which, as a scholar pointed out, should make one reflect on the effect of sins on the heart). Here is a link which talks about it: http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/1902/ This confused even his companions Omar Ben Al-Khattab that he kissed the black stone at pilgrimage & said while kissing it what means in English: " I do know that you are a stone, neither you benefit nor harm, unless I saw the prophet kissing you I wouldn't kiss you". This is not confusion! In fact, we use this hadeeth to highlight the importance of obeying the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). When someone asks why we perform Hajj the way we do, we say it's because that's how the Prophet Muhammad showed us how and he is our example. Throwing the stones at jamaraat - though there are other reasons behind it, the reason why we do it is because the Prophet did. We hear/see and obey. We imitate him. That's the whole point of the Messenger being a guide for all of mankind.. Secondly, this hadeeth is also used to show people that we will never worship any other than Allaah. We kiss the black stone not because we worship it, but to follow Allaah and His Messenger. Then we have this scripture "None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar" (2:106, AYA) How can you NOT abrogate (which means abolish), yet substitute something? I don't get what you're asking. Well, I can try to explain that, but you will disagree with the conclusion. I'll try anyway. You're using your own logic. We simply hear and obey Allaah. If Islaam teaches us that He has a Face, we believe it (unlike a deviant sect in Islaam that refuses to believe in it because they put their own logic behind it). If Islaam teaches us that the Qur'aan abrogates the Scriptures before it, we believe in it. Now, I want to address the authority of the prophets. I assume that you would assert that the prophets and messengers are without error. And that every word and action they made was inspired by God. That is a little confusing, since Adam is considered the 1st prophet, yet he made an error, by disobeying God. His punishment was death (not immediate, just that Adam would not have eternal life on Earth). Moses also made an error. Moses doubted himself, and his abiliy to lead the Hebrews. As a result God forbid Moses from entering Caanan (which would later become the Kingdom of Israel and Judah). Therefore we have 2 examples of prophets who made errors after being given commands from God. Do you assert that Muhhamad was INCAPABLE of error? Excellent question, you're asking something that even some Muslims don't understand. We say that anything that the Messengers & Prophets said regarding the religion are ABSOLUTELY flawless because it comes from the Lord. They are faultless in conveying the Message of Islaam. With that being said, that does not mean they are safe from errors in other facets of life (though they don't make these errors to anger God, they're just mistakes). As you mentioned, Adam (peace be upon him) ate from that tree (though we believe the punishment was being expelled from Paradise. Moses (peace be upon him) accidentally killed someone. And there are other examples of other Prophets/Messengers. Anyways, these were not things that were related to conveying the Message of Islaam. Anything Islaam related, well, you can see here that that's not possible: And if he (Muhammad SAW) had forged a false saying concerning Us (Allah), (Al-Haqqah 69:44) We surely should have seized him by his right hand (or with power and might), (Al-Haqqah 69:45) And then certainly should have cut off his life artery (Aorta), (Al-Haqqah 69:46) And none of you could withhold Us from (punishing) him. (Al-Haqqah 69:47) So, yes, I believe that the Messenger of Allaah is free from errors or imperfection when it comes to conveying the Message of Islaam. And on the few chances he made errors on things OTHER than the Message of Islaam, Allaah corrected him in even THOSE. [Edited 10/4/2012 5:16:19 PM ]
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xman7900 Richmond, VA 38, joined Apr. 2012	To uniquecover, 1st, I must apologize for the confusion about thr Kaaba. You are correct, Kaaba and the black stone are 2 seperate things. I compounded the 2 for the sake of time (laziness). Sorry. Anyway, I'm glad you brought up inheritances, because I was thumbing throughthe Qur'an and came across the following verses. "4.11: Allah (thus) directs you as regards your Children's (Inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females: if only daughters, two or more, their share is two-thirds of the inheritance; if only one, her share is a half. For parents, a sixth share of the inheritance to each, if the deceased left children; if no children, and the parents are the (only) heirs, the mother has a third; if the deceased Left brothers (or sisters) the mother has a sixth. (The distribution in all cases ('s) after the payment of legacies and debts. Ye know not whether your parents or your children are nearest to you in benefit. These are settled portions ordained by Allah; and Allah is All-knowing, Al-wise. 4.12: In what your wives leave, your share is a half, if they leave no child; but if they leave a child, ye get a fourth; after payment of legacies and debts. In what ye leave, their share is a fourth, if ye leave no child; but if ye leave a child, they get an eighth; after payment of legacies and debts. If the man or woman whose inheritance is in question, has left neither ascendants nor descendants, but has left a brother or a sister, each one of the two gets a sixth; but if more than two, they share in a third; after payment of legacies and debts; so that no loss is caused (to any one). Thus is it ordained by Allah; and Allah is All-knowing, Most Forbearing." Qur'an 4:11-12 There appears to be a mathematical ERROR in the divison of inheritance, as the total amount when added equals MORE than 100% or 1. Here is the breakdown according to the 2 verses cited. wife: 1/8 = 3/24, daughters: 2/3 = 16/24, father: 1/6 = 4/24, mother: 1/6 = 4/24, total = 27/24=1.125 How and why do you suppose that mathematical error is in the Qur'an? Certainly God makes no such errors. [Edited 10/4/2012 5:27:28 PM ]
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uniquecover Aurora, IL 29, joined Jul. 2012	Quote from xman7900: Well she already kinda backpedaled, when she 1st said God does not break promises or covenants. God made an EVERLASTING covenant with the Hebrews, the only condition was that they obey TORAH. But later she says, TRUE Torah is no longer availabe on Earth, and therefore Jews MUST obey Qur'an (which AFFIRMS Torah) and Sunnah. If TRUE Torah is no longer available on Earth, that would mean the Jews of today CANNOT fulfil their obligation or condition of God's EVERLASTING covenant with them. That CANNOT be, because since God's covenant with them is EVERLASTING, and God does NOT break promises or covenants, Torah MUST STILL be available here on Earth, otherwise God would indeed be breaking his covenant with the Hebrews, by removing Torah from Earth. Once again, you're misunderstanding. Fact: Allaah does NOT break His Promises or Covenants Fact: Allaah never ordered the Jews to obey the Torah until the end of times. (and this is where we differ because you say He did, we say He didn't) Fact: Allaah never promised to preserve the Torah Fact: The Qur'aan and the sunnah contain the laws that all of mankind must follow if they want to be granted Paradise. Neither the Torah nor the Bible have any sort of authority over us today. Fact: The people who were sincere from amongst the People of the Book became followers of the Qur'aan and Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). Fact: Going by what you said, we should have thousands of different religions that all lead to Paradise. We should have different sects for those who followed Noah, Jacob, Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Moses, Joseph, Joshua, Lot, Jesus, Muhammad, (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon them all) etc. Are you sure you're not a Jew? You seem to rely upon the Torah quite a bit.
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xman7900 Richmond, VA 38, joined Apr. 2012	Quote from uniquecover: Fact: Allaah never ordered the Jews to obey the Torah until the end of times. (and this is where we differ because you say He did, we say He didn't) I supopose then, you don't accept this verse. Genesis 17:7-8 God said to Abraham, “I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you. The whole land of Canaan, where you are now an alien, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God.”
10/4/2012 5:56:14 PM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 11
uniquecover Aurora, IL 29, joined Jul. 2012	Quote from xman7900: What many ARABS argue is based on RACISM (just as the Zohar and Talmud is). Those ARABS say that ONLY THEY have TRUE revelation from God. No, it's not racism. The Qur'aan is for all of mankind, not just for the Arabs. Quote from xman7900: The Qur'an encourages Jews to judge by the Torah: How come they (come) unto thee (Muhammad) for judgment when they have the Torah, wherein Allah hath delivered judgment (for them)? (5:43, MP) And the Qur'an urges Christians to judge by the Gospel: Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are evil-livers. (5:47, MP) And it encourages Muslims to judge by the Qur'an: And unto thee (Muslims) have We revealed the Scripture (the Qur'an) with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watcher over it. So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed. (5:48, MP) The Qur'an refers to the scriptures of the Christians and Jews as God's reliable word. Jews and Christians are commanded to consult their scriptures when desiring to know God's will. The Qur'an therefore considers these scriptures to be reliable. Surah 5:43-48 also shows that the Qur'an is NOT claiming to abrogate (replace) the Gospel and Torah, but is a parallel revelation to them. "O People of the Book! Ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord" (5:71 AYA/68 MP). How can the Jew or Christian, stand fast by the Law and the Gospel, if the Law and the Gospel have been corrupted or abrogated? That would mean God has made his covenant with them NULL and VOID. God does NOT break promises or covenants. Remember? This is why it's so important to read the exegesis of the Qur'aan. Here, http://abdurrahman.org/qurantafseer/ibnkathir/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For 5:43, Allaah was basically pointing out that the Jews were hiding parts of the Torah. And the ruling that Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah) gave was the ruling that Allaah commanded him to give. He was not doing it because of the Torah, but because of Allaah. As for 5:47: Allah said, (and We sent...) meaning, We sent (in their footsteps) meaning the Prophets of the Children of Israel, (`Isa, son of Maryam, confirming the Tawrah that had come before him,) meaning, he believed in it and ruled by it. (and We gave him the Injil, in which was guidance and light) a guidance that directs to the truth and a light that removes the doubts and solves disputes, (and confirmation of the Tawrah that had come before it,) meaning, he adhered to the Tawrah, except for the few instances that clarified the truth where the Children of Israel differed. Allah states in another Ayah that `Isa said to the Children of Israel, (. ..and to make lawful to you part of what was forbidden to you.) So the scholars say that the Injil abrogated some of the rulings of the Tawrah. Allah's statement, (a guidance and an admonition for those who have Taqwa.) means, We made the Injil guidance and an admonition that prohibits committing sins and errors, for those who have Taqwa of Allah and fear His warning and torment. Allah said next, (Let the people of the Injil judge by what Allah has revealed therein.) meaning, so that He judges the people of the Injil by it in their time. Or, the Ayah means, so that they believe in all that is in it and adhere to all its commands, including the good news about the coming of Muhammad and the command to believe in and follow him when he is sent. Regarding 5:48, (So judge between them by what Allah has revealed.) The Ayah commands: O Muhammad! Rule between the people, Arabs and non-Arabs, lettered and unlettered, by what Allah has revealed to you in this Glorious Book and what it approves of for you from the Law of the previous Prophets, as Ibn Jarir said. Ibn Abi Hatim reported that Ibn `Abbas said, "The Prophet had the choice to judge between them or to turn away from them and refer them to their own Law. Then this Ayah was revealed, (So judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and follow not their vain desires. ..) and he was commanded to judge between them by our Book.'' (If Allah willed, He would have made you one nation.) This is a general proclamation to all nations informing them of Allah's mighty ability. If Allah wills, He would make all mankind follow one religion and one Law, that would never be abrogated. Allah decided that every Prophet would have his own distinct law that is later abrogated partially or totally with the law of a latter Prophet. Later on, all previous laws were abrogated by the Law that Allah sent with Muhammad , His servant and Messenger, whom Allah sent to the people of earth as the Final Prophet. As for 5:68: Allah says: O Muhammad, say, (O People of the Scripture! You have nothing...) meaning no real religion until you adhere to and implement the Tawrah and the Injil. That is, until you believe in all the Books that you have that Allah revealed to the Prophets. These Books command following Muhammad and believing in his prophecy, all the while adhering to his Law. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ So basically, the original Torah and original Bible told them to obey the coming Messenger (i.e. Messenger Muhammad). Whoever does not do this are not following the Torah and the Bible. Those who do ARE following the original Torah & Bible. In other words, it is part of the Torah and the Bible to accept Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) as the seal of all of the Prophets and to follow his laws.
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uniquecover Aurora, IL 29, joined Jul. 2012	Quote from xman7900: I supopose then, you don't accept this verse. Genesis 17:7-8 God said to Abraham, “I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you. The whole land of Canaan, where you are now an alien, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God.” Well, first of all, I don't know if that is one of the verses that was corrupted or not. Secondly, how do you get that the Torah is binding for all times from that? There appears to be a mathematical ERROR in the divison of inheritance, as the total amount when added equals MORE than 100% or 1. Here is the breakdown according to the 2 verses cited. wife: 1/8 = 3/24, daughters: 2/3 = 16/24, father: 1/6 = 4/24, mother: 1/6 = 4/24, total = 27/24=1.125 How and why do you suppose that mathematical error is in the Qur'an? Certainly God makes no such errors Islaam explains the law of inheritance in great detail. The broad and basic outline is given in the Qur’an and the minute details are given in the Ahaadeeth i.e. the tradition and sayings of the Prophet (pbuh). A person can spend his full life only on the research of the Islaamic law of inheritance with its various permutations and combinations. Arun Shourie expects to know the law only by superficially reading two verses of the Qur’an without knowing the criteria. It is similar to a person who wants to solve a mathematical equation but does not know the basic rule of mathematics, i.e. BODMAS which says that in a mathematical equation, irrespective of which mathematical sign appears first, you will first solve BODMAS: 1st Brackets Off, 2nd Division, 3rd Multiplication, 4th Addition and 5th Subtraction. If Arun Shourie does not know mathematics and first does multiplication then subtraction, then brackets off, then division and finally addition, the answer that he will obtain is bound to be wrong. Similarly, when the Qur’an mentions the law of inheritance in Surah Nisa chapter 4 verses 11 and 12, even though the children’s share is mentioned first and then that of the parents and spouses, according to the law of inheritance in Islam after paying off the debts and liabilities first, the share is given to the spouses and the parents depending on whether the deceased has left children or not, and whatever portion of wealth is remaining is divided between the sons and the daughters according to their respective shares. So where does the question arise of the total coming to more than one? So it is not Allaah who does not know mathematics but it is Arun Shourie himself who is ignorant about mathematics. http://www.allaahuakbar.net/misconceptions/38.htm [Edited 10/4/2012 6:13:11 PM ]
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xman7900 Richmond, VA 38, joined Apr. 2012	Genesis 17:7-8 God said to Abraham, “I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you. The whole land of Canaan, where you are now an alien, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God.” quote from uniquecover: Well, first of all, I don't know if that is one of the verses that was corrupted or not. If you do NOT KNOW if it was corrupted or not, HOW can one claim it to be abrogated? Why do you suppose Qur'an and Hadith does not CLEARLY and SPECIFICALLY explain what was abrogated or not? Secondly, how do you get that the Torah is binding for all times from that? Because the requirement for the Jews to possess and inhabit the land of Caanan is obediance to Torah. [Edited 10/4/2012 6:43:03 PM ]
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xman7900 Richmond, VA 38, joined Apr. 2012	Why would God or His messengers give/reveal laws that are so open to interpretaion, that quote from uniquecover: "A person can spend his full life only on the research of the Islaamic law of inheritance with its various permutations and combinations."? Surely God knows that many men will differ in interpretations. Why then, in His FINAL legal revelation to man, would He NOT make any laws UNAMBIGUOUSLY clear? [Edited 10/4/2012 6:51:11 PM ]
10/4/2012 8:13:13 PM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 11
uniquecover Aurora, IL 29, joined Jul. 2012	Quote from xman7900: Genesis 17:7-8 God said to Abraham, “I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you. The whole land of Canaan, where you are now an alien, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God.” Again, how does this verse prove that the Torah is binding on the Jews forever? If you do NOT KNOW if it was corrupted or not, HOW can one claim it to be abrogated? Referring to the Jews: Do you (faithful believers) covet that they will believe in your religion inspite of the fact that a party of them (Jewish rabbis) used to hear the Word of Allah [the Taurat (Torah)], then they used to change it knowingly after they understood it? (Al-Baqarah 2:75) Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands and then say, "This is from Allah," to purchase with it a little price! Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for that they earn thereby. (Al-Baqarah 2:79) And verily, among them is a party who distort the Book with their tongues (as they read), so that you may think it is from the Book, but it is not from the Book, and they say: "This is from Allah," but it is not from Allah; and they speak a lie against Allah while they know it. (Aali Imran 3:78) Ibn 'Abbas said, "Why do you ask the people of the scripture about anything while your Book (Quran) which has been revealed to Allah's Apostle is newer and the latest? You read it pure, undistorted and unchanged, and Allah has told you that the people of the scripture (Jews and Christians) changed their scripture and distorted it, and wrote the scripture with their own hands and said, 'It is from Allah,' to sell it for a little gain. Does not the knowledge which has come to you prevent you from asking them about anything? No, by Allah, we have never seen any man from them asking you regarding what has been revealed to you!" [Saheeh Bukhari] Why do you suppose Qur'an and Hadith does not CLEARLY and SPECIFICALLY explain what was abrogated or not? 1.) See above. 2.) It doesn't matter what's in the Torah or the Bible, in the end. IT HAS NO AUTHORITY FOR US ANYMORE. All we need are the Qur'aan and the sunnah. So that's why I don't really spend too much time researching which verses from the Bible (or Torah) are corrupted/changed and which aren't. It doesn't make a difference to me as a practicing Muslim because Allaah perfected His religion for us and gave us everything we need in the Qur'aan and the sunnah. Because the requirement for the Jews to possess and inhabit the land of Caanan is obediance to Torah. 1.) I don't see that in the verse 2.) Obedience to the TOrah means obeying Allaah which means obeying Him when He says to follow Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and his laws once he is sent down. O you who have been given the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Believe in what We have revealed (to Muhammad SAW) confirming what is (already) with you, before We efface faces (by making them like the back of necks; without nose, mouth, eyes, etc.) and turn them hindwards, or curse them as We cursed the Sabbathbreakers. And the Commandment of Allah is always executed. (An-Nisa 4:47) [Edited 10/4/2012 8:14:26 PM ]
10/4/2012 8:25:19 PM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 11
uniquecover Aurora, IL 29, joined Jul. 2012	Quote from xman7900: Why would God or His messengers give/reveal laws that are so open to interpretaion, that quote from uniquecover: "A person can spend his full life only on the research of the Islaamic law of inheritance with its various permutations and combinations."? Surely God knows that many men will differ in interpretations. Why then, in His FINAL legal revelation to man, would He NOT make any laws UNAMBIGUOUSLY clear? Fiqh IS derived through the QUr'aan & the sunnah. It's amazing all of the principles scholars have regarding fiqh. A very interesting and amazing field of study. Secondly, I answered you but because you didn't like the answer, you're going to complain that Islaam is too vague? Allaah is sufficiently clear. He is the All-Knowing and He knows how much He needs to tell us. And however much He does tell us is perfect. We're not like the Jews before who, when ordered to slaughter a cow, kept on asking for details about it out of stubbornness And (remember) when Mûsa (Moses) said to his people: "Verily, Allah commands you that you slaughter a cow." They said, "Do you make fun of us?" He said, "I take Allah's Refuge from being among Al-Jahilûn (the ignorants or the foolish)." (Al-Baqarah 2:67) They said, "Call upon your Lord for us that He may make plain to us what it is!" He said, "He says, 'Verily, it is a cow neither too old nor too young, but (it is) between the two conditions', so do what you are commanded." (Al-Baqarah 2:68) They said, "Call upon your Lord for us to make plain to us its colour." He said, "He says, 'It is a yellow cow, bright in its colour, pleasing to the beholders.' " (Al-Baqarah 2:69) They said, "Call upon your Lord for us to make plain to us what it is. Verily to us all cows are alike, And surely, if Allah wills, we will be guided." (Al-Baqarah 2:70) He [Mûsa (Moses)] said, "He says, 'It is a cow neither trained to till the soil nor water the fields, sound, having no other colour except bright yellow.' " They said, "Now you have brought the truth." So they slaughtered it though they were near to not doing it. (Al-Baqarah 2:71) From Tafseer ibn Katheer: Allah mentioned the stubbornness of the Children of Israel and the many unnecessary questions they asked their Messengers. This is why when they were stubborn, Allah made the decisions difficult for them. Had they slaughtered a cow, any cow, it would have been sufficient for them, as Ibn `Abbas and `Ubaydah have said. Instead, they made the matter difficult, and this is why Allah made it even more difficult for them.
10/4/2012 8:45:44 PM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 11
xman7900 Richmond, VA 38, joined Apr. 2012	uniquecover, is it permissible for a Muslim to sell alcohol, pornagraphy, or pork products?
10/4/2012 9:17:04 PM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 11
uniquecover Aurora, IL 29, joined Jul. 2012	No
10/4/2012 9:26:39 PM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 11
xman7900 Richmond, VA 38, joined Apr. 2012	Ok. Thanx.
10/4/2012 9:34:59 PM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 11
uniquecover Aurora, IL 29, joined Jul. 2012	Oh, that was it? I thought you were setting up another question. No problem.
10/5/2012 12:25:56 AM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 11
sharenlove Fort Wayne, IN 61, joined Oct. 2009	Quote from sail_dancer: Islam can make the same claims about christianity. Peace I am not a christian but I definitely do not agree with your statement!

megapersonla

megapersonals con

megapersonla

megapersonals con

Islamic Education: Origins of the faith

Islamic Education: Origins of the faith | Page 11