Islamic Education: Origins of the faith | Page 14

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10/19/2012 11:19:47 PM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 14
uniquecover Aurora, IL 29, joined Jul. 2012	Quote from xman7900: to uniquecover, I will post a proper response later when I get home, but for now let me ask you a few questions. Take your time. The Qur'an says God replaces a better law for the older. How is cutting off the hand of a theif better than simply having the theif repay the value of that which is stolen? 1.) He cannot be questioned as to what He does, while they will be questioned. (Al-Anbiya 21:23) Jihad (holy fighting in Allah's Cause) is ordained for you (Muslims) though you dislike it, and it may be that you dislike a thing which is good for you and that you like a thing which is bad for you. Allah knows but you do not know. (Al-Baqarah 2:216) Verily, you are those who have disputed about that of which you have knowledge. Why do you then dispute concerning that which you have no knowledge? It is Allah Who knows, and you know not. (Aali Imran 3:66) I have no doubt that this is the best punishment because, as Allaah says, He has perfected His religion for us. It makes for a safe society; people will usually be too afraid to commit the crime in the first place because of the fear of the punishment looming over their heads. And once someone IS punished, it acts as a deterrent to others thinking of following suit. Plus, the punishment guarantees forgiveness for that Muslim for that particular crime - even if they don't repent. 2.) This is if the thief gets caught (i.e. sufficient witnesses)/confesses (otherwise they can pay the value of what is stolen anonymously) & they're adult, sane, not doing it out of necessity (stole something they need to live), what is stolen has to be more than a certain amount, stealing something that is secure, and other conditions are met. It's detailed here: http://islam-qa.com/en/ref/9935 If a poor child steals a loaf of bread, should he/she have his/her hand removed? A child is not held accountable so they're not punished. Secondly, if a person steals in order to live (i.e. to eat so they don't die or to fulfill some other necessity in life that would cause them to literally die if ont fulfilled), then there is sufficient doubt in order to not apply the punishment because the hudud punishment is to be avoided when there is doubt according to the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). How can that person become a productive member of society if he/she can no longer work, since they are disabled? Losing a hand is not being disabled nor does it prevent someone from being a productive member of society. And they should've thought of that before they stole. Actions have consequences. Is "eye for eye, tooth for tooth, life for life" still valid? Yes, but forgiveness & patience on the part of the victim/victims' family is better. O you who believe! Al-Qisas (the Law of Equality in punishment) is prescribed for you in case of murder: the free for the free, the slave for the slave, and the female for the female. But if the killer is forgiven by the brother (or the relatives, etc.) of the killed against blood money, then adhering to it with fairness and payment of the blood money, to the heir should be made in fairness. This is an alleviation and a mercy from your Lord. So after this whoever transgresses the limits (i.e. kills the killer after taking the blood money), he shall have a painful torment. (Al-Baqarah 2:178) And We ordained therein for them: "Life for life, eye for eye, nose for nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if anyone remits the retaliation by way of charity, it shall be for him an expiation. And whosoever does not judge by that which Allah has revealed, such are the Zalimûn (polytheists and wrongdoers - of a lesser degree). (Al-Ma'idah 5:45) Tafseer of 5:45 "Imam Abu Nasr bin As-Sabbagh stated in his book, Ash-Shamil, that the scholars agree that this Ayah ?5:45? should be implemented, and the Imams agree that the man is killed for a woman whom he kills, according to the general indications of this Ayah." Meet singles at DateHookup.dating, we're 100% free! Join now!
10/20/2012 12:12:22 AM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 14
xman7900 Richmond, VA 38, joined Apr. 2012	I'm working on a response to your earlier posts, but I wanted to respond to your last post 1st. Everything sounds fine. But I wanted to touch on something. It appears ALL of Torah is NOT abrogated, as "eye for eye, tooth for tooth, life for life" is STILL valid. Would it be more accurate to say that SOME of Torah is abrogated?
10/20/2012 12:35:14 AM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 14
xman7900 Richmond, VA 38, joined Apr. 2012	to uniquecover Will you indulge me on something? Here is a short list of laws from the Torah. Are they abrogated? 1. Deuteronomy 15:7 - Not to deny charity to the poor. If there be among you a poor man of one of thy brethren within any of thy gates in thy land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not harden thine heart, nor shut thine hand from thy poor brother. 2. Exodus 22:25 - Not participating in an agreement involving interest. If thou lend money to any of my people that is poor by thee, thou shalt not be to him as an usurer, neither shalt thou lay upon him usury. 3. Leviticus 19:13 - Oppress not an employee by delaying paying his wages. Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbour, neither rob him: the wages of him that is hired shall not abide with thee all night until the morning. This one is of MAJOR importance, as the violation of it has been the cause of MANY wars, including the current conflict between the Palesinians and the Zionists (Israelis) 4. Deuteronomy 19:14 - Not fraudulently altering land boundaries / landmarker. Thou shalt not remove thy neighbour's landmark, which they of old time have set in thine inheritance, which thou shalt inherit in the land that the LORD thy God giveth thee to possess it. 5. Leviticus 19:35 - Not cheating or defrauding with measurements and weights. Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment, in meteyard, in weight, or in measure. [Edited 10/20/2012 12:37:12 AM ]
10/20/2012 3:16:38 AM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 14
xman7900 Richmond, VA 38, joined Apr. 2012	To uniquecover, Did you know that there are TORAH commandments IN the QUR'AN? Here are 9 in Surat Al-'An`am 6:151-153 1. (He commands) that you not associate anything with Him= Leviticus 19:4- Turn ye not unto idols, nor make to yourselves molten gods: I am the LORD your God. 2. and to parents, good treatment= Exodus 20:12 - Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee. 3. do not kill your children out of poverty; We will provide for you and them. This law is somewhat unique to Islam, as it can easily be interpreted as a prohibition of abortion. Anyway, it would=. Exodus 20:13- Thou shalt not kill.+Genesis1:28 - be fruitful and multiply 4. do not approach immoralities - what is apparent of them and what is concealed. This commandment is quite vague. Muslims would say refer to Hadith, but let's see if Torah is still valid here Exodus 22:25 - Not participating in an agreement involving interest. If thou lend money to any of my people that is poor by thee, thou shalt not be to him as an usurer, neither shalt thou lay upon him usury. Leviticus 19:11 - Not stealing. Ye shall not steal, neither deal falsely, neither lie one to another. Leviticus 25:14 - Not wronging / deceiving one another in business. And if thou sell ought unto thy neighbour, or buyest ought of thy neighbour's hand, ye shall not oppress one another Leviticus 18:9 - No relations with one's sister. The nakedness of thy sister, the daughter of thy father, or daughter of thy mother, whether she be born at home, or born abroad, even their nakedness thou shalt not uncover. Leviticus 18:22 - A man may not lie carnally with another man. Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. Deuteronomy 23:17 - No relations (harlotry) with a woman outside marriage. There shall be no whre of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel. I am QUITE* sure ALL of those laws are STILL valid and practiced by MUSLIMS (thats quite a bit of Torah too). 5. And do not kill the soul which Allah has forbidden (to be killed) except by (legal) right.= Exodus 20:13- Thou shalt not kill. 6. And do not approach the orphan's property except in a way that is best until he reaches maturity.= Exodus 22:22 Ye shall not afflict any widow, or fatherless child. 7. And give full measure and weight in justice.= Leviticus 19:35- Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment, in meteyard, in weight, or in measure. 8. And when you testify, be just, even if (it concerns) a near relative.= Exodus 20:16 - Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.+Leviticus 19:16 - Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people: neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbour: I am the LORD. 9. And the covenant of Allah fulfill.= Deuteronomy 10:20- Thou shalt fear the Lord thy God; him shalt thou serve, and to him shalt thou cleave, and swear by his name.+Leviticus 19:12- And ye shall not swear by my name falsely, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD. +Numbers 30:2- If a man vow a vow unto the LORD, or swear an oath to bind his soul with a bond; he shall not break his word, he shall do according to all that proceedeth out of his mouth. Interesting. As it turns out, the Qur'an does EXACTLY what it says it does, CONFIRM THE TORAH. 9 commandments in the Qur'an CONFIRMS AT LEAST 18 commandments from the Torah. These commandments can be found in ANY Bible available today. Therefore, the Torah is NOT abrogated.
10/20/2012 10:01:22 AM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 14
uniquecover Aurora, IL 29, joined Jul. 2012	Yes, there are some similarities between Islaam & Judaism & Christianity (don't call them the 3 Abrahamic religions for nothing) -- even today after both the Torah and the Bible have been corrupted. Another example is the stoning of the adulterer. Anyways, we follow those laws because of the Qur'aan and the sunnah. If they weren't outlined there, we wouldn't have followed them. So, for example, Muslims throw pebbles at Jamarat during Hajj (which is taking place right now). This is something that Abraham (peace be upon him) did. But we do it because the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) did it. If he didn't do it, we wouldn't do it. So though there may be some similarities, it's not because of them that we fulfill obligations. It's because of the Qur'aan & sunnah.
10/20/2012 11:03:15 AM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 14
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 64, joined Feb. 2008	Uniquecover, we non-Moslems see the Moslem religion as being a religion of war and violence, whereas just about every other religion, Abrahamic, monotheistic, or not, preaches love and peace. We see Jesus, Buddha, and Confucius preaching love and peace, and we read about the historical Mohammed, and how he raided villages and sold people into slavery. We see terrorist attacks, and no Moslem leaders condemning these attacks. We hear of Moslem women being stoned to death when they are raped, and no Moslem leaders coming forth to condemn that either. What can you do to reassure non-Moslems that Islam is a relgion of peace? Why can't at least one major Moslem cleric speak publicly in favor of spreading Islam by peaceful means only?
10/20/2012 11:15:37 AM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 14
xman7900 Richmond, VA 38, joined Apr. 2012	to ludlowlowell Islam IS a religion of peace. Those who commit acts of terrorism in the name of God or Islam are NOT TRUE Muslims. As I just pointed out for uniquecover, the Qur'an CONFIRMS the laws of the Old Testament. For example, did you know that the Qur'an prohibits a Muslim from killing an innocent person, EVEN IF that person is and unbeliever. The Qur'an also prohibits a Muslim from attempting to force Islam on someone. [Edited 10/20/2012 11:16:07 AM ]
10/20/2012 11:25:23 AM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 14
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 64, joined Feb. 2008	The first part of the Koran says these things. But later on in the Koran the Koran calls for violence against non-Moslems. How do Moslems interpret these contradictions? By the Moslem concept of naskh, the concept that Mohammed's later visions superseded his earlier ones.
10/20/2012 12:23:50 PM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 14
xman7900 Richmond, VA 38, joined Apr. 2012	Quote from ludlowlowell: The first part of the Koran says these things. But later on in the Koran the Koran calls for violence against non-Moslems. How do Moslems interpret these contradictions? By the Moslem concept of naskh, the concept that Mohammed's later visions superseded his earlier ones. Actually, the Qur'an allows violence against unbelievers ONLY IF unbelievers attack them (Muslims) first. The Qur'an also commands that Muslims stop fighting if the unbelievers stop fighting. Qur'an 2:193 Fight them until there is no [more] fitnah and [until] worship is [acknowledged to be] for Allah . But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors. The Qur'an says that if unbelievers seek peace, than the Muslims must seek peace as well. Qur'an 8:61 And if they incline to peace, then incline to it [also] and rely upon Allah. Indeed, it is He who is the Hearing, the Knowing. Why do you think that the MILLIONS of Muslims here in America aren't conducting warfare on American streets as they are in Afghanistan, Iraq, and other parts of the world, where Muslims are in conflict with non Muslims? [Edited 10/20/2012 12:25:42 PM ]
10/20/2012 1:18:47 PM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 14
xman7900 Richmond, VA 38, joined Apr. 2012	Quote from uniquecover: Yes, there are some similarities between Islaam & Judaism & Christianity (don't call them the 3 Abrahamic religions for nothing) -- even today after both the Torah and the Bible have been corrupted. Another example is the stoning of the adulterer. Not just similarities, the verses I quoted from the Qur'an in my last post to you is almost verbatim Torah. And that wasn't even ALL of the laws of Torah that the Qur'an CONFIRMS. Anyways, we follow those laws because of the Qur'aan and the sunnah. If they weren't outlined there, we wouldn't have followed them. Well of course they are outlined in the Qur'an and Sunnah, it is the word of God, which is EVERLASTING and UNCORRUPTABLE. Hence Genesis 17:7-8 God said to Abraham, “I will establish my covenant as an EVERLASTING covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you. The whole land of Canaan, where you are now an alien, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God.” and Al-Ma'idah 5:48 Yusuf Ali "To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, CONFIRMING the scripture that came BEFORE it, and GUARDING IT IN SAFETY: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute" Regarding the Torah (and the Gospel for that matter), the Qur'an is GUARDING IT IN SAFETY. Which is WHY the laws of Torah are contained WITHIN the Qur'an. That's why I say that the Torah is NOT abrogated, and that Jews and Christians CAN STILL judge by it. Now whether they do or not, is a completely different story altogether. [Edited 10/20/2012 1:20:22 PM ]
10/20/2012 3:57:47 PM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 14
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 64, joined Feb. 2008	Xman, the following quote is from the book "Islam and Terrorism" by Mark A. Gabriel, an Egyptian Moslem who converted to Protestant Christianity: "Islamic scholars had to determine, therefore, which verses to follow in the case of a contradiction [in the Quran]. This was accomplished by the principle of naskh. "Naskh is based on the fact that the Quran ws revealed to Muhammed at different times over a period of about twenty-two years. Some parts of the Quran came later, and some parts came earlier. To solve a contradiction, they decided that new revelations would override (nasikh) previous revelations. "There are at least 114 verses in the Quran that speak of love, peace, and forgiveness, especially in the surah titled 'The Heifer'(Surah 2:62, 109). But when Surah 9:5 ws revealed later, it canceled out those previous verses. This verse states: 'Fight and saly the Pagans wherever youfind them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie and wait for them in every strategem (of war)...' " Does this correctly describe the modern Moslem belief? In Christianity there is something similar to naskh, namely, the concept that much of the New Testament abrogates much of the Old. To the point we are discussing here, the OT commands the ancient Israelites to go into battle and kill all men, women, and children, but the NT has no command or suggestion towards violence at all. Instead we are supposed to love our neighbor and do good to those who persecute us. If someone strikes us on the cheek we are supposed to offer the other cheek. But the progression in Islam seems to be the exact opposite--from peace and love to war and hatred.
10/20/2012 4:35:41 PM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 14
xman7900 Richmond, VA 38, joined Apr. 2012	Quote from ludlowlowell: Does this correctly describe the modern Moslem belief? No it doesn't, because Qur'an 9:5, known as the "Verse of the Sword", does not abrogate ALL of the verses that command peace and unity with Christians and Jews. The "Verse of the Sword" only abrogates 107 of over 6000 verses in the Qur'an. Among those that were NOT abrogated by the "Verse of the Sword" are the following Al-Ma'idah 5:82 Yusuf Ali "...and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant." Al-Ma'idah 5:69 Yusuf Ali "Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve." Surat Al-Mumtahanah 60:8 Muhsin Khan "Allah does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion and did not drive you out of your homes. Verily, Allah loves those who deal with equity. [Edited 10/20/2012 4:38:26 PM ]
10/20/2012 7:59:23 PM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 14
uniquecover Aurora, IL 29, joined Jul. 2012	Quote from ludlowlowell: Uniquecover, we non-Moslems see the Moslem religion as being a religion of war and violence, whereas just about every other religion, Abrahamic, monotheistic, or not, preaches love and peace. *Some non-Muslims. Also, have you turned a blind eye to all of the violent verses in the Old Testament? We see Jesus, Buddha, and Confucius preaching love and peace, and we read about the historical Mohammed, and how he raided villages and sold people into slavery. We see terrorist attacks, and no Moslem leaders condemning these attacks. We hear of Moslem women being stoned to death when they are raped, and no Moslem leaders coming forth to condemn that either. 1.) Why don't you read the Sealed Nectar by Saif ur Rahman al-Mubarakpuri? It's an excellent biography. You would benefit from reading it because, as of right now, I don't think you know much about the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) from authentic sources. And I can tell you that this book is based upon authentic narrations. 2.) As for supposed terrorist attacks, I find it amusing that people ignore all of the events leading up to certain other events. The Muslims who attacked didn't get angry and start attacking for no reason. They're retaliating. And because they dared to retaliate, they're the ones who are blamed. This picture kinda explains what I'm trying to say: 3.) I believe I said this before, but there is no punishment for rape. In an Islaamic state, if rape is proven, the punishment for the rapist is either lashes or being stoned to death (or if they kidnapped someone or used a weapon on someone, the punishment for that is being crucified). And he must pay a certain amount of money to the girl on top of the punishment. What can you do to reassure non-Moslems that Islam is a relgion of peace? Why can't at least one major Moslem cleric speak publicly in favor of spreading Islam by peaceful means only? I don't really give a damn how others see us. All I will do is talk about Islaam and show the true Islaam to people - but my job is not to convince them of anything....only to convey the truth. And even when I convey this truth, I pray that people are guided, but it's not me who guides others. It's Allaah. Secondly, Islaam is a way of life and, as such, Islaam gives us rules for just about every facet of life, including war. So why would Muslim cleric speak out against (just) wars if Allaah didn't? [Edited 10/20/2012 8:00:40 PM ]
10/21/2012 12:59:37 AM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 14
uniquecover Aurora, IL 29, joined Jul. 2012	Quote from ludlowlowell: How do Moslems interpret these contradictions? By the Moslem concept of naskh, the concept that Mohammed's later visions superseded his earlier ones. I don't know why so many non-Muslims keep claiming this. Yes, there is a concept called an-nasikh wal-mansukh (the abrogating and abrogated), but it's only for some verses. Not all. Anyways, as for the different periods of revelation, the Makkan period was focused on the aspects of worshipping Allaah. This period primary was to strengthen the faith of the relatively new believers because there is nothing more important than recognizing the Oneness of our Lord in Worship, in Ownership/Lordship/Ruling, and in the Names and Attributes. That's why the first pillar of Islaam is the testimony of faith. Everything else is dependent upon this. After the Muslims made a migration to Madinah (since they were persecuted in Makkah), the verses revealed revolved around the rules and regulations because the foundation was strong now and they would not hesitate to follow those rules. After they accept the Oneness of Allaah, everything else follows. So the theme of the verses reflected the society's evolution at that time. "Naskh is based on the fact that the Quran ws revealed to Muhammed at different times over a period of about twenty-two years. Some parts of the Quran came later, and some parts came earlier. To solve a contradiction, they decided that new revelations would override (nasikh) previous revelations. He's an idiot. No wonder he left the truth for falsehood. He doesn't even know properly what he left. Anyways, they didn't decide anything. Allaah is the one who decided that. For instance, I bring this example up often. Allaah never permitted alcohol....but he didn't prohibit it either. So there was a time when Muslims would drink alcohol. At first Allaah mentioned the evilness of alcohol. Then later He forbade from anyone praying when intoxicated. Then, finally, He forbade it completely. This isn't a contradiction. It's only an apparent contradiction to those who don't know about the verses of the Qur'aan & the context of their revelation. To those who DO know, they know that it was prohibited gradually so that the people could have the strength to give it up. It's actually pretty amazing - but what else could be expected of Allaah? People in the U.S. couldn't give up their alcohol even after the Prohibition Act. But Allaah revealed this command in such a way that the people SPIT the alcohol they had in their mouths out once they were told of the verse prohibiting alcohol. But when Surah 9:5 ws revealed later, it canceled out those previous verses. This verse states: 'Fight and saly the Pagans wherever youfind them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie and wait for them in every strategem (of war)...' " You ignored the verse right after it: And if anyone of the Mushrikûn (polytheists, idolaters, pagans, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah) seeks your protection then grant him protection, so that he may hear the Word of Allah (the Qur'an), and then escort him to where he can be secure, that is because they are men who know not. (At-Tawbah 9:6) Also, Ibn Katheer says this (And fight in the way of Allah those who fight you,) (verse 2:190) Abu Al-`Aliyah said, "This was the first Ayah about fighting that was revealed in Al-Madinah. Ever since it was revealed, Allah's Messenger used to fight only those who fought him and avoid non-combatants. Later, Surat Bara'ah (chapter 9 in the Qur'an) was revealed.'' `Abdur-Rahman bin Zayd bin Aslam said similarly, then he said that this was later abrogated by the Ayah: (then kill them wherever you find them) (9:5). However, this statement is not plausible, because Allah's statement : (...those who fight you) applies only to fighting the enemies who are engaged in fighting Islam and its people. So the Ayah means, `Fight those who fight you', just as Allah said (in another Ayah): (...and fight against the Mushrikin collectively as they fight against you collectively.) (9:36) This is why Allah said later in the Ayah: ??????????????? ?????? ??????????????? ??????????????? ????? ?????? ?????????????? (And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out.) meaning, `Your energy should be spent on fighting them, just as their energy is spent on fighting you, and on expelling them from the areas from which they have expelled you, as a law of equality in punishment.' But the progression in Islam seems to be the exact opposite--from peace and love to war and hatred. Christians, on a large scale, have not been non-violent. I believe they were pacifist only for a few hundred years before they started fighting. Islaam, on the other hand, recognizes that war is a fact of life. Therefore, it gives rules to abide by during war (which I think the Christians are in dire need of if the wars worldwide recently and historically are any indication). For instance: And fight in the Way of Allah those who fight you, but transgress not the limits. Truly, Allah likes not the transgressors. [This Verse is the first one that was revealed in connection with Jihad, but it was supplemented by another (V.9:36)]. (Al-Baqarah 2:190)
10/21/2012 1:00:24 AM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 14
uniquecover Aurora, IL 29, joined Jul. 2012	Quote from xman7900: Why do you think that the MILLIONS of Muslims here in America aren't conducting warfare on American streets as they are in Afghanistan, Iraq, and other parts of the world, where Muslims are in conflict with non Muslims? Exactly. If all religious Muslims are out to kill all non-Muslims, wouldn't there be a hell of a lot more non-combatants dead (i.e. on the non-Muslim side....there are plenty of non-combatants dead on the Muslim side). Well of course they are outlined in the Qur'an and Sunnah, it is the word of God, which is EVERLASTING and UNCORRUPTABLE. The thing is, God did not intend to reveal all laws & have them be permanent. He, being the All-Knowing, only set some laws for certain periods of time for certain nations while for other time periods, He changed them. For instance, inter-marrying amongst Adam's (peace be upon him) children was allowed (obviously, how else would the line continue) - with certain restrictions but now it's considered reprehensible and absolutely forbidden in no uncertain terms. Another example is prostrating to people. During Yusuf's (Joseph's) (peace be upon him) time, prostrating was not forbidden and it was not a symbol of shirk (associating partners with Allaah/giving His rights to other than Him). But now it is yet another reprehensible act. During Jesus' (peace be upon him) time, there was to be no violence whatsoever. That's changed - we're not pacifists. That's why I say that the Torah is NOT abrogated, and that Jews and Christians CAN STILL judge by it. According to your religion, whatever it is, maybe. But not according to Islaam (because we are to obey Allaah and He said to obey Him and the Messenger Muhammad. Plus, both the Torah and the Bible are both corrupted. Neither remain purely the Word of God any longer).
10/21/2012 1:09:07 AM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 14
xman7900 Richmond, VA 38, joined Apr. 2012
10/21/2012 1:40:19 AM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 14
xman7900 Richmond, VA 38, joined Apr. 2012	Quote from uniquecover: According to your religion, whatever it is, maybe. But not according to Islaam (because we are to obey Allaah and He said to obey Him and the Messenger Muhammad. Plus, both the Torah and the Bible are both corrupted. Neither remain purely the Word of God any longer) In a court of law, the burden of proof is with the claimant, that would be you. As Muhammad said, "bring your proof if you be truthful". I just posted 9 commandments in the Qur'an that confirm at least 17 commandments in the Torah. If a Jew or Christian in America obeys those laws, he/she IS obeying Muhammad. Surat Al-'An`am 151-153 Say, "Come, I will recite what your Lord has prohibited to you. [He commands] that you not associate anything with Him, and to parents, good treatment, and do not kill your children out of poverty; We will provide for you and them. And do not approach immoralities - what is apparent of them and what is concealed. And do not kill the soul which Allah has forbidden [to be killed] except by [legal] right. This has He instructed you that you may use reason." And do not approach the orphan's property except in a way that is best until he reaches maturity. And give full measure and weight in justice. We do not charge any soul except [with that within] its capacity. And when you testify, be just, even if [it concerns] a near relative. And the covenant of Allah fulfill. This has He instructed you that you may remember. And, [moreover], THIS is My path, which is STRAIGHT, so follow it; and do not follow [other] ways, for you will be separated from His way. This has He instructed you that you may become righteous. We've already been over this. This is GOD's path, and I already showed you that this path is ALREADY outlined in ANY Bible available. Shall I repost it? You can't argue with the Qur'an.
10/21/2012 12:21:37 PM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 14
uniquecover Aurora, IL 29, joined Jul. 2012	Quote from xman7900: In a court of law, the burden of proof is with the claimant, that would be you. Whatever of good reaches you, is from Allah, but whatever of evil befalls you, is from yourself. And We have sent you (O Muhammad SAW) as a Messenger to mankind, and Allah is Sufficient as a Witness. (An-Nisa 4:79) He who obeys the Messenger (Muhammad SAW), has indeed obeyed Allah, but he who turns away, then we have not sent you (O Muhammad SAW) as a watcher over them. (An-Nisa 4:80) O mankind! Verily, there has come to you the Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with the truth from your Lord, so believe in him, it is better for you. But if you disbelieve, then certainly to Allah belongs all that is in the heavens and the earth. And Allah is Ever AllKnowing, AllWise. (An-Nisa 4:170) Muhammad (SAW) is not the father of any man among you, but he is the Messenger of Allah and the last (end) of the Prophets. And Allah is Ever AllAware of everything. (Al-Ahzab 33:40) O you who believe! Obey Allah and His Messenger, and turn not away from him (i.e. Messenger Muhammad SAW) while you are hearing. (Al-Anfal 8:20) O you who believe! Enter perfectly in Islam (by obeying all the rules and regulations of the Islamic religion) and follow not the footsteps of Shaitan (Satan). Verily! He is to you a plain enemy (Al-Baqarah 2:208) And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers. (Aali Imran 3:85) Say (O Muhammad SAW to mankind): "If you (really) love Allah then follow me (i.e. accept Islamic Monotheism, follow the Qur'an and the Sunnah), Allah will love you and forgive you of your sins. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." (Aali Imran 3:31) Say (O Muhammad SAW): "Obey Allah and the Messenger (Muhammad SAW)." But if they turn away, then Allah does not like the disbelievers. (Aali Imran 3:32) O you who have been given the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Believe in what We have revealed (to Muhammad SAW) confirming what is (already) with you, before We efface faces (by making them like the back of necks; without nose, mouth, eyes, etc.) and turn them hindwards, or curse them as We cursed the Sabbathbreakers. And the Commandment of Allah is always executed. (An-Nisa 4:47) O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger (Muhammad SAW), and those of you (Muslims) who are in authority. (And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger (SAW), if you believe in Allah and in the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for final determination. (An-Nisa 4:59) Verily, We have sent down to you (O Muhammad SAW) the Book (this Qur'an) for mankind in truth. So whosoever accepts the guidance, it is only for his ownself, and whosoever goes astray, he goes astray only for his (own) loss. And you (O Muhammad SAW) are not a Wakil (trustee or disposer of affairs, or keeper) over them. (Az-Zumar 39:41) It was reported in Saheeh Muslim that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “By the One in Whose hand is my soul, no one among this nation, Jew or Christian, hears of me, then dies without having believed in that with which I was sent, but he will be one of the people of the Fire.” And whoever contradicts and opposes the Messenger (Muhammad SAW) after the right path has been shown clearly to him, and follows other than the believers' way. We shall keep him in the path he has chosen, and burn him in Hell - what an evil destination. (An-Nisa 4:115) If a Jew or Christian in America obeys those laws, he/she IS obeying Muhammad. If they truly believed in him and obeyed Him, they would be doing everything a Muslim does and would most likely call themselves a Muslim. They would pray 5 times a day, they would fast during Ramadan, they would agree with the punishments outlined in the Qur'aan (and if they were in a position of authority in an Islaamic state, they'd implement them), and in the end, they'd obey the Qur'aan just like any other Muslim. There are plenty of these people around.....and they're called converts because they converted from their religions to Islaam from Judaism/Christianity (or any other religion). Not one of them tries to say what you say (that they should still follow the Bible/Torah and, by doing so, they're obeying Muhammad peace & blessings of Allaah be upon him. The Qur'aan is sufficient for them....which tells them to turn to the Sunnah). Surat Al-'An`am 151-153 Then they're following the Qur'aan. They're not following these laws because the Torah/Bible says them. [Edited 10/21/2012 12:24:04 PM ]
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xman7900 Richmond, VA 38, joined Apr. 2012	Quote from uniquecover:If they truly believed in him and obeyed Him, they would be doing everything a Muslim does and would most likely call themselves a Muslim. They would pray 5 times a day, The Qur'an does not command 5 prayers a day. The Qur'an only commands 3 prayers a day. An-Nur 24:58 Muhsin Khan O you who believe! Let your legal slaves and slave-girls, and those among you who have not come to the age of puberty ask your permission (before they come to your presence) on three occasions; before Fajr (morning) prayer, and while you put off your clothes for the noonday (rest), and after the 'Isha' (late-night) prayer. (These) THREE times are of privacy for you, other than these times there is NO sin on you or on them to move about, attending (helping) you each other. Thus Allah makes clear the Ayat (the Verses of this Quran, showing proofs for the legal aspects of permission for visits, etc.) to you. And Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise. Quote from uniquecover: they would fast during Ramadan, they would agree with the punishments outlined in the Qur'aan (and if they were in a position of authority in an Islaamic state, they'd implement them), and in the end, they'd obey the Qur'aan just like ANY other Muslim. There are plenty of these people around.....and they're called converts because they converted from their religions to Islaam from Judaism/Christianity (or any other religion). Not one of them tries to say what you say (that they should still follow the Bible/Torah and, by doing so, they're obeying Muhammad peace & blessings of Allaah be upon him. The Qur'aan is sufficient for them....which tells them to turn to the Sunnah). 1. Not ALL Muslims obey what is in the Sunnah or even in the Qur'an. For example, we have discussed the issue of alcohol. YOU YOUSELF admit that a Muslim is PROHIBITED from selling or even possessing alcohol, yet there are THOUSANDS of Muslims here in America who buy and sell alcohol. Is that NOT a GREATER sin than neglecting to fast during Ramadan, since they KNOWINGLY & WILLINGLY stray from God's STRAIGHT path, and DIVERT others, INCLUDING MUSLIMS from God's STRAIGHT path? By the way, YOU YOURSELF said that those Muslims who sell alcohol are STILL Muslims. 2. YOU YOURSELF have expressed disappointment and concern for the way many Islamic governments administer justice. 3. The Bible IS corrupted yes, BUT, I have proven that God's message (which is the way to his STRAIGHT path) is NOT, and is still intact within the Bible. I have already proven that. Oh, and by the way, the prediction of Muhammad's arrival IS STILL in the Bible Quote from uniquecover: Then they're following the Qur'aan. They're not following these laws because the Torah/Bible says them. Either way, they ARE STILL obeying the Qur'an and Muhammad, therefore they ARE Muslims.
10/21/2012 7:47:08 PM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 14
asanb Sanbornton, NH 61, joined Jul. 2012	Some interesting Islamic downloads: The Lies about Muhammad -How you were deceived into Islamophobia by Moustafa Zayed An Answer to Robert Spencer's book "Truth about Muhammad" http://www.islamicsearchcenter.com/library/allegations/The-Lies-About-Muhammad.pdf Biography of the Prophet and the Orientalists by Muhammad Mohar Al http://l.b5z.net/i/u/6103974/f/Mohar_Ali_-_Biography_of_Prophet_and_orientalist_1.pdf http://l.b5z.net/i/u/6103974/f/Mohar_Ali_-_Biography_of_Prophet_and_orientalist_2_1_.pdf A Compendium of Answers to Allegations Against Islam by Waqar Akbar Cheema http://www.islamicsearchcenter.com/library/allegations/A_Compendium_of_Answers_to_Allegations_against_Islam_vol.1.pdf
10/21/2012 8:03:21 PM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 14
jim_a49 Bellevue, WA 67, joined Dec. 2010	Thank you for unblocking me and I welcome yourself and uniquecover to my post of the actual origins of Islam. Moustafa Zayedor is a poor choice to use as an example
10/21/2012 8:13:39 PM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 14
asanb Sanbornton, NH 61, joined Jul. 2012	Sharmeen Akbani Gangat: No, Quran doesn’t sanction violence. Even with my limited knowledge of scripture, I know that Quran says that relations between all nations and states, whether Muslim or not, should be peaceful (verse 49:13); that maximum effort must be made to advance the cause of peace (10:25); that all means, including mediation and arbitration, must be undertaken to achieve peace (8:61); and that freedom of religion must be granted to every one (2:256). But, Faisal Shahzad and other Muslims implicated in terrorist acts don’t seem to know this. Their grasp of the scripture is deficient. Hence, they have chosen Islam to become what sufferers of terrorism in the name of Islam have tagged it to be: violent. Just a day after Faisal Shahzad was sentenced to life imprisonment, coincidentally, the Intelligence Squared U.S. organized a debate on Islam as a religion of peace. One of the two women on the panel, Zeba Khan, arguing in favor of the motion, referred to her upbringing: how her parents raised her Muslim; yet, enrolled her and her siblings in a Hebrew day school for nine years so that they could also learn about other faiths besides their own. Her reference point, throughout the debate, was a Gallup study showing that 93 percent of Muslims are peaceful and only seven percent of Muslims are radicalized. Their radicalism, according to the study, is motivated by politics, not religion. The second woman debater, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, on the other hand, declared in no uncertain terms that no monotheistic religion is a religion of peace. I was reminded of an NPR interview earlier this year with religion historian Philip Jenkins, who said, “The Islamic scriptures in the Quran were actually far less bloody and less violent than those in the Bible.” If all monotheistic religions are inherently violent, why does Islam invite global attention as the religion of violence? It is because the perpetrators of violence find justification for their cause in Islam. What, however, leads to such fractured understanding on their part? The linguistic reach of its scripture and the absence of a single representative authority on Islam lead to misinterpretation and misrepresentation of the religion. Arabic, the language of the Quran, is spoken in fewer than half of nearly 50 countries that are Muslimmajority— including Indonesia, Pakistan, and Bangladesh, the most heavily populated Muslim-majority countries. In these non-Arabic speaking countries, Quran is learnt by rote with no attention to comprehension. Even if there is an impetus to understand the meaning of the Quran, there is heavy reliance on translations, which, in itself, is a risky proposition. In countries, such as Pakistan, where the teaching of Arabic is advocated at the national level, the language is not taught as “a living language.” Rather, it is for “textual memorization and recitation only,” according to Alyssa Ayres in Michael E. Brown and Sumit Ganguly’s book, Fighting Words: Language Policy and Ethnic Relations in Asia. What, therefore, happens is that the followers of the religion fall prey to the manipulators of the faith—who are free to select out-of-context verses to influence and recruit. For instance, reference is often made to verse 4:74, which states that those who fight in the cause of God will be rewarded. But, there is no mention of the following verse, 4:75, which categorically clarifies that Muslims are only allowed to fight those oppressors who directly attack them, especially those oppressing the most vulnerable among them: old men, women, and children.
10/21/2012 8:16:18 PM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 14
asanb Sanbornton, NH 61, joined Jul. 2012	Quote from jim_a49: Thank you for unblocking me and I welcome yourself and uniquecover to my post of the actual origins of Islam. No more personal insults on this thread toward anyone, or the block will go back up. I do not care about dissagrement. I will not tolerate disagreable.
10/21/2012 8:22:58 PM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 14
jim_a49 Bellevue, WA 67, joined Dec. 2010	Quote from asanb: No more personal insults on this thread toward anyone, or the block will go back up. I do not care about dissagrement. I will not tolerate disagreable. I promise I will behave, and I encourage you to go to my post, I am starting from the beginning and muhammed is not yet in Yathrub, he is still in Mecca getting ready to leave. I am taking a step by step approach using only Islamic text. The post has gone on for about 10 pages so you might want to take the time to read it all, but just the preface, and last 3 ot 4 pages will get you up to date. I am welcoming and encouraging, all questions and the only thing I ask, is to confine them into the time frame we are in at the tims.
10/21/2012 9:27:54 PM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 14
xman7900 Richmond, VA 38, joined Apr. 2012	Quote from uniquecover:If they truly believed in him and obeyed Him, they would be doing everything a Muslim does and would most likely call themselves a Muslim. They would pray 5 times a day, The Qur'an does not command 5 prayers a day. The Qur'an only commands 3 prayers a day. An-Nur 24:58 Muhsin Khan O you who believe! Let your legal slaves and slave-girls, and those among you who have not come to the age of puberty ask your permission (before they come to your presence) on three occasions; before Fajr (morning) prayer, and while you put off your clothes for the noonday (rest), and after the 'Isha' (late-night) prayer. (These) THREE times are of privacy for you, other than these times there is NO sin on you or on them to move about, attending (helping) you each other. Thus Allah makes clear the Ayat (the Verses of this Quran, showing proofs for the legal aspects of permission for visits, etc.) to you. And Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise. Quote from uniquecover: they would fast during Ramadan, they would agree with the punishments outlined in the Qur'aan (and if they were in a position of authority in an Islaamic state, they'd implement them), and in the end, they'd obey the Qur'aan just like ANY other Muslim. There are plenty of these people around.....and they're called converts because they converted from their religions to Islaam from Judaism/Christianity (or any other religion). Not one of them tries to say what you say (that they should still follow the Bible/Torah and, by doing so, they're obeying Muhammad peace & blessings of Allaah be upon him. The Qur'aan is sufficient for them....which tells them to turn to the Sunnah). 1. Not ALL Muslims obey what is in the Sunnah or even in the Qur'an. For example, we have discussed the issue of alcohol. YOU YOUSELF admit that a Muslim is PROHIBITED from selling or even possessing alcohol, yet there are THOUSANDS of Muslims here in America who buy and sell alcohol. Is that NOT a GREATER sin than neglecting to fast during Ramadan, since they KNOWINGLY & WILLINGLY stray from God's STRAIGHT path, and DIVERT others, INCLUDING MUSLIMS from God's STRAIGHT path? By the way, YOU YOURSELF said that those Muslims who sell alcohol are STILL Muslims. 2. YOU YOURSELF have expressed disappointment and concern for the way many Islamic governments administer justice. 3. The Bible IS corrupted yes, BUT, I have proven that God's message (which is the way to his STRAIGHT path) is NOT, and is still intact within the Bible. I have already proven that. Oh, and by the way, the prediction of Muhammad's arrival IS STILL in the Bible Quote from uniquecover: Then they're following the Qur'aan. They're not following these laws because the Torah/Bible says them. Either way, they ARE STILL obeying the Qur'an and Muhammad, therefore they ARE Muslims. [Edited 10/21/2012 9:28:08 PM ]
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uniquecover Aurora, IL 29, joined Jul. 2012	Quote from xman7900: The Qur'an does not command 5 prayers a day. The Qur'an only commands 3 prayers a day. You conveniently forgot to quote this portion of my post: Say (O Muhammad SAW): "Obey Allah and the Messenger (Muhammad SAW)." But if they turn away, then Allah does not like the disbelievers. (Aali Imran 3:32) The Qur'aan is not our only source of Islaamic law. Sunnah is another source. And, if you recall, sunnah is basically the sayings & actions of the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). So, for instance, it is a COMMAND by Allaah for a man to grow his beard and trim his mustache. But this doesn't show up in the Qur'aan but it IS something that the Prophet (peace & blessings of Allaah be upon him) said. Similarly, the command to pray 5 times a day is outlined in hadeeth. If we relied only on the Qur'aan, we wouldn't know how to pray at all. But because we also rely on the sunnah (as is commanded by Allaah), we know what to recite during our prayers. An-Nur 24:58 You used the wrong verse. This verse only shows when slaves and children should ask for permission to enter the room (i.e. knock before entering). 1. Not ALL Muslims obey what is in the Sunnah or even in the Qur'an. Agreed, but most Muslims don't make something impermissible into something permissible (or something impermissible into something permissible). To do so is to take one out of Islaam. Is that NOT a GREATER sin than neglecting to fast during Ramadan, since they KNOWINGLY & WILLINGLY stray from God's STRAIGHT path, and DIVERT others, INCLUDING MUSLIMS from God's STRAIGHT path? 1.) If they say that it's ok to do EITHER of those things (i.e. not fast during Ramadan or to drink alcohol), they're no longer Muslims. 2.) Al-Bukhaari (8) and Muslim (16) narrated that Ibn ‘Umar (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Islam is built on five (pillars): the testimony that there is no god but Allaah and Muhammad is the Messenger of Allaah; establishing prayer; paying zakaah; Hajj; and fasting Ramadaan.” Whoever does not fast has abandoned one of the pillars of Islam, and is committing a grave major sin. Indeed some of the salaf were of the view that he is a kaafir [disbeliever] and apostate – we seek refuge with Allaah from that. A saheeh report which warns against not fasting was narrated by Ibn Khuzaymah (1986) and Ibn Hibbaan (7491) from Abu Umaamah al-Baahili who said: I heard the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say: “Whilst I was sleeping two men came to me and took my by the arm and brought me to a cragged mountain. They said, ‘Climb up.’ I said, ‘I cannot.’ They said, ‘We will make it easy for you.’ So I climbed up until I was at the top of the mountain. Then I heard loud voices. I said, ‘What are these voices?’ They said, ‘This is the howling of the people of Hell.” Then I was taken until I saw people hanging by their hamstrings, with the sides of their mouths torn and blood pouring from their mouths.’ I said, ‘Who are these?’ He said, ‘These are people who broke their fast before it was time.’” Classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh Mawaarid al-Zam’aan, no. 1509. http://islamqa.info/en/ref/38747 By the way, YOU YOURSELF said that those Muslims who sell alcohol are STILL Muslims. Yep, as long as they don't deny that they're sinning (and helping others sin). 2. YOU YOURSELF have expressed disappointment and concern for the way many Islamic governments administer justice. Not Islaamic governments. Bashar al Assad? Hardly Islaamic. Hosni Mubarak? Ditto. Qaddafi? Ditto. Ahmedinejad? Ditto. 3. The Bible IS corrupted yes, BUT, I have proven that God's message (which is the way to his STRAIGHT path) is NOT, and is still intact within the Bible. ...The original Gospels WERE God's message. And those original Gospels have been corrupted. SOME things in the Bible or the Torah are the truth, but it DOESN'T MATTER BECAUSE WE HAVE THE QUR'AAN WHICH TELLS US EXACTLY WHAT WE NEED TO DO/KNOW (INCLUDING FOLLOWING THE PROPHET MUHAMMAD). Oh, and by the way, the prediction of Muhammad's arrival IS STILL in the Bible Yes - but literally altering the words is not the only way to corrupt the Bible/Torah (though that is what they have done as well). To alter the meaning is another way. I think that's actually explained in one of the call-to-monotheism links I gave before. Either way, they ARE STILL obeying the Qur'an and Muhammad, therefore they ARE Muslims. Yes, so why bring the Torah/Bible into it? It's not their basis for their actions (except, perhaps, it may be part of the reason why they recognize the Prophet Muhammad in the first place - because they realize that the Torah/Bible talked about him).
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xman7900 Richmond, VA 38, joined Apr. 2012	Quote from uniquecover: The Qur'aan is not our only source of Islaamic law. Sunnah is another source. And, if you recall, sunnah is basically the sayings & actions of the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). Yes, I am well aware of Sunnah, and it's significance. Here's a question though. What is the punishment for adultery? I'll make it multiple choice for you. a) 100 lashes by way of flogging Qur'an An-Nur 24:2 Yusuf Ali The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment. b) death, by way of stoning Old Testament & Sunnah (which as YOU YOURSELF pointed out in THIS quote Yes, there are some similarities between Islaam & Judaism & Christianity (don't call them the 3 Abrahamic religions for nothing) -- even today after both the Torah and the Bible have been corrupted. Another example is the stoning of the adulterer., is from the TORAH Just to verify, I will cite the commandment as it is in the Torah Deuteronomy 22:23-24 If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the young woman because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man’s wife. You must purge the evil from among you. c) Nothing, as is the case here in America. Regarding An-Nur 24:58 you said You used the wrong verse. This verse only shows when slaves and children should ask for permission to enter the room (i.e. knock before entering). 1. That verse ACTUALLY ony mentions 2 prayers, Fajr (morning), and 'Isha' (late-night), by NAME, but I thought I'd go with 3, since Daniel 6:10 suggested 3 prayers a day, and that makes the most sense and is easier on the believer. 3 prayers, morning, noon, and night. Besides, I think there's room for flexibility with this, so long as one does NOT fall short of Fajr (morning), and 'Isha' (late-night) prayers. The way I see it, a believer can go with either 2, 3, or 5 prayers a day. 2 as a minimum, 3 would be better, and 5 best. Remember what YOU said, a Muslim who sins (if you would consider obeying the Qur'an a sin ) is STILL a Muslim, as long as they don't deny that they're sinning Again, I DON'T consider making ONLY the MINIMUM 2 prayers mentioned by NAME in the Qur'an a sin, it may be "lazy", but not sinful. 2. I WOULD ask you to cite the verse or verses in the Qur'an that command 5 prayers a day, outling by NAME ALL 5 prayers, but I already KNOW you CAN'T (which is WHY you didn't), because it's NOT there (I already checked). Therefore, it must be from Sunnah (which I happen to know it is). Now, depending on your answer to my multiple choice question above, we'll see if there is flexibility in the law. Not Islaamic governments. Bashar al Assad? Hardly Islaamic. Hosni Mubarak? Ditto. Qaddafi? Ditto. Ahmedinejad? Ditto. Well, Mubarak definitely needed to go. Assad? I don't know enough about. Qadaffi, he walked a tight rope, he DID do some good thigs for Libya, but his aggression against the West early in his rule caused great suffering for the Libyan people. Ahmedinejad? As I understand it, Ahmedinejad actually has less political power than Assad, Mubarak, or Qadaffi. Ahmedinejad can only rule with the approval of the Supreme Leader, Ali Khamenei. I don't see much fault with Ahmedinejad. Anyway, what's your opinion of the governments of Pakistan, Bangladesh, Egypt (currently), Algeria, Morocco, Afghanistan, Malaysia, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Tunisia, Somalia, Tajikistan, Jordan, United Arab Emirates, Kuwait, Oman, Bahrain, Comoros, Qatar, Brunei, and Maldives? Are you saying you approve of the governments of ALL of those, and ONLY disagree with the 4 you mentioned? In response to my statement about Jews and Christians who obey the laws in the Qur'an (and most likely Sunnah as well, since Sunnah does not STRAY from God's straight path, in the Qur'an, but expands on it) Either way, they ARE STILL obeying the Qur'an and Muhammad, therefore they ARE Muslims You stated Yes, so why bring the Torah/Bible into it? It's not their basis for their actions (except, perhaps, it may be part of the reason why they recognize the Prophet Muhammad in the first place - because they realize that the Torah/Bible talked about him). Just as you say that you would not obey the commandments that are in the Bible if they were not in the Qur'an or Sunnah, the same holds true for Jews and Christians. The Torah/Bible IS THE reason a Jew or Christian would follow the Qur'an and Sunnah, not so much because it mentions Muhammad, though that IS a big part of it, but because the Torah is WITHIN the Qur'an, and it along with the Sunnah confirm the Torah and is JUST, therefore any GOOD Christian or Jew can CLEARLY see that, and would be obliged to obey. [Edited 10/22/2012 6:10:11 AM ]
10/22/2012 6:17:20 AM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 14
jim_a49 Bellevue, WA 67, joined Dec. 2010	And I want to point out that sayings of the prophet is a term, not a reality. The edit was issued early on, that all things are attrubuted to muhammed. There is nothing in the sunnah that can be actually traced to muhammed. And using Bukhari, and saying muhammed said this stuff, is obviousally not true. There was a 100 year black hole from which nothing emerges, nada, zip,. Then suddenly 250 years later all of these sayings that the prophet said, surface, and not one single one of them, has a paper trail that goes back, they start right there. 250 years later.
10/22/2012 7:38:25 AM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 14
asanb Sanbornton, NH 61, joined Jul. 2012	Your point being, it seems to me, that by sifting through this huge pile of paper, some of which obviously not ever authenticatable, that we weigh and consider the implications of all of these writings we will come to the conclusion that Islam is evil. What about the devoted and sincere Muslim (or christian for that matter) who ignores the scriptural pitfalls and focuses his attention in a moral and prayerful way? You ignore the concept of INTETION. And personal responsibility. Any one can read ( or be mislead by preachers about) any of the worlds scriptures and come away with a focussed desire for god, or a focussed delusion that they are directed by God to commit murder. You can't blame the books for human choices.
10/22/2012 7:54:46 AM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 14
jim_a49 Bellevue, WA 67, joined Dec. 2010	I agree with you 100% there. Most muslims know very little about the religion, and are devoted to what they think is the religion. This is especially true in the United states, We have countless muslim converts, that really have no concept of the actual creation and execution of Islam. But here is where it gets dangerous, these people are becoming brainwashed into what they think is a religion, and are actually pawns for the clerics, and Imans who run the show. Remember, it is these clerics, and Imans, that do not want you reading the original text.
10/22/2012 11:54:26 AM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 14
uniquecover Aurora, IL 29, joined Jul. 2012	Quote from xman7900: What is the punishment for adultery? I'll make it multiple choice for you. The punishment for adultery in an Islaamic state after one is found guilty is being stoned to death if that person is/was married and 100 lashes for those who aren't/weren't. We don't follow it because the Torah said it, but because Allaah revealed that law to Muhammad (peace & blessings of Allaah be upon him). This is a simple point that I'm trying to get across. We do not have ANY need for the Torah or Bible, even if it WASN'T corrupted (though it is), because we find EVERYTHING we need in the Qur'aan & the sunnah for our laws. 1. That verse ACTUALLY ony mentions 2 prayers, Fajr (morning), and 'Isha' (late-night), by NAME, but I thought I'd go with 3, since Daniel 6:10 suggested 3 prayers a day, and that makes the most sense and is easier on the believer. In any case, that's the wrong verse to use for your argument. It wasn't mentioning prayer times so that one could know when to pray. Besides, I think there's room for flexibility with this, so long as one does NOT fall short of Fajr (morning), and 'Isha' (late-night) prayers. The way I see it, a believer can go with either 2, 3, or 5 prayers a day. 2 as a minimum, 3 would be better, and 5 best. Good thing you're not a scholar, then, who can pass legal rulings in Islaam because then you'd be leading people astray and telling them to commit kufr by having them ignore the sunnah. Remember what YOU said, a Muslim who sins (if you would consider obeying the Qur'an a sin ) is STILL a Muslim, as long as they don't deny that they're sinning Yep. I even reiterated it in my previous post. I know my beliefs. As for your comment in the parenthesis, of course I don't. Again, I DON'T consider making ONLY the MINIMUM 2 prayers mentioned by NAME in the Qur'an a sin, it may be "lazy", but not sinful. Good thing you're not someone who can pass legal rulings in Islaam. Then again, the condition for that is to be a Muslim so you're a long way from being able to weigh in on legal rulings in Islaam. Not one single Muslim claims what you claim. The only ones who call themselves Muslims and say that are the Qur'aanists (Qur'aan only people).....and they're not considered Muslims by scholars due to a few conditions they meet (for being outside of the folds of Islaam). 2. I WOULD ask you to cite the verse or verses in the Qur'an that command 5 prayers a day, outling by NAME ALL 5 prayers, but I already KNOW you CAN'T (which is WHY you didn't), because it's NOT there (I already checked). Al-Tirmidhi reported from Abu Raafi’ and others that the Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “I do not want to see any one of you reclining on his couch and, when he hears of my instructions or prohibitions, saying ‘I don’t accept it; we didn’t find any such thing in the Book of Allaah.’” Abu ‘Eesaa said: This is a saheeh hasan hadeeth. (See Sunan al-Tirmidhi, Shaakir edition, no. 2663). Therefore, it must be from Sunnah (which I happen to know it is). Now, depending on your answer to my multiple choice question above, we'll see if there is flexibility in the law. It was narrated that Anas ibn Maalik said: Abu Dharr narrated that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The roof of my house was split open when I was in Makkah, and Jibreel (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) came down and split open my chest and washed it with Zamzam water. Then he brought a golden vessel filled with wisdom and faith and poured it into my chest, then he sealed it. Then he took me by the hand and ascended with me into the lowest heaven. When I reached the lowest heaven Jibreel said to the gatekeeper, ‘Open up!’ He said, ‘Who is this?’ He said, ‘Jibreel.’ He said, ‘Is there anyone with you?’ He said, ‘Yes, Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) is with me.’ He said, ‘Has his mission begun?’ He said, ‘Yes.’ And when it was opened we went up into the lowest heaven.... Then Allaah enjoined upon my ummah fifty prayers, and I came back until I passed by Moosa who said, ‘What has Allaah enjoined upon your ummah?’ I said, ‘He has enjoined fifty prayers.’ He said, ‘Go back to your Lord, for your ummah will not be able to bear that.’ So I went back and He reduced it. Then I came back to Moosa and said, ‘He has reduced it.’ He said, ‘Go back to your Lord, for your ummah will not be able to bear that.’ So I went back and He reduced it further. Then I came back to Moosa and said, ‘He has reduced it further.’ He said, ‘Go back to your Lord, for your ummah will not be able to bear that.’ So I went back and He said, ‘(The prayers) are five but (the reward) is fifty. The Sentence that comes from Me cannot be changed [cf. Qaaf 50:29].’ Then I went back to Moosa and he said, ‘Go back to your Lord.’ But I said, ‘I feel shy before my Lord.’…” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 342; Muslim, 163
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uniquecover Aurora, IL 29, joined Jul. 2012	Well, Mubarak definitely needed to go. Assad? I don't know enough about. Qadaffi, he walked a tight rope, he DID do some good thigs for Libya, but his aggression against the West early in his rule caused great suffering for the Libyan people. Ahmedinejad? As I understand it, Ahmedinejad actually has less political power than Assad, Mubarak, or Qadaffi. Ahmedinejad can only rule with the approval of the Supreme Leader, Ali Khamenei. I don't see much fault with Ahmedinejad. They all need to go because none of them rule by the Qur'aan or the sunnah. As for Assad, he's the worst of all of them. In terms of the revolution, I find it amazing & interesting (and in awe of Allaah's Plan) that the leaders that are being toppled have been progressively worse. Ben 'Ali is not as bad as Mubarak who is not as bad as Qaddafi who was not as bad as Assad. The last two ruthlessly slaughtered their own people by the thousands. Assad's father did the exact same in Hama when he was the ruler. May the curse of Allaah be upon them all. Ameen The fault that I find with Ahmedinejad is the same with all of the others (does not rule by the Qur'aan or sunnah). Plus, Iran is helping the Syrian government. Why? Because they're both shi3aas and they both want to kill the Sunnis. Anyway, what's your opinion of the governments of Pakistan, Bangladesh, Egypt (currently), Algeria, Morocco, Afghanistan, Malaysia, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Tunisia, Somalia, Tajikistan, Jordan, United Arab Emirates, Kuwait, Oman, Bahrain, Comoros, Qatar, Brunei, and Maldives? Are you saying you approve of the governments of ALL of those, and ONLY disagree with the 4 you mentioned? Egypt is WAY better than it was under Mubarak. Still a long way to go, but at least change is happening. And Saudi Arabia has MANY faults, but they're the closest out of all of them in implementing the Qur'aan or sunnah. However, my problem with all of them is the same as my problem with all of the above - none of them completely rule by the Qur'aan & sunnah. Therefore, they cannot be called Islaamic governments. Just as you say that you would not obey the commandments that are in the Bible if they were not in the Qur'an or Sunnah, the same holds true for Jews and Christians. Ok, then they're not obeying Allaah & the Prophet Muhammad or the Qur'aan. Therefore please do not say that they are Muslims and that Muslims believe they will go to Paradise. That's only YOUR lack of knowlege on Islaam that leads you to that conclusion, but please don't attribute it to Islaam. Attribute it to your own logic. The Christians and Jews who became Muslims during the Prophet's time did not follow any other teachings besides his. They did not resort to following legal rulings from within the Torah or Bible. Plus, again, the Bible & the Torah are corrupted so I don't see how you can keep saying that they should follow those two sources.
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xman7900 Richmond, VA 38, joined Apr. 2012	Quote from uniquecover: The Christians and Jews who became Muslims during the Prophet's time did not follow any other teachings besides his. They did NOT resort to following legal rulings from within the Torah or Bible. Plus, again, the Bible & the Torah are corrupted so I don't see how you can keep saying that they should follow those two sources. WOW!! I don't even know what to say. No offense, but you REALLY sound , and it's this type of denial, that makes many westerners fearful and distrusting of Muslims like yourself. You stated that the punishment for adultery is in an Islaamic state after one is found guilty is being stoned to death if that person is/was married and 100 lashes for those who aren't/weren't. Where did the stoning to death come from? Answer TORAH. You CANNOT DENY that, and IF you do, you ARE DELUSIONAL. I'm not saying that that is why a person BORN into Islam accepts that, OBVIOUSLY one born into Islam would not know about Torah at all, except what is written of nit in the Qur'an. But converts from Judaism and Christianity would IMMEDIATELY recognize that as one of the commanments of Torah. That's all I'm saying. You seem to have a HATRED of the Torah, why I don't know because Muhammad implemented many laws from the Torah. It doesn't matter whether Muhammad got them from the text (of the Bible), or whether Gabriel dictated them to him, the fact of the matter is, they appeared in the Torah FIRST. Am I wrong on that last sentence? If the QUR'AN states that 100 lashes is the punishment for adultery, which it does An-Nur 24:2 Yusuf Ali The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment. Why then does Muhammad use what was in the Old Testament? There is only 1 of 2 answers to that question. a) Muhammad got it from the text of the Torah. b) Gabriel dictated it to him. Take your pick. Either way, it was in the Torah FIRST That is IRREFUTABLE and UNDENIABLE By the way your answer was flawed. 100 lashes for those who aren't/weren't If they arent't married it is NOT adultery, it is fornication, and An-Nur 24:2 CLEARLY outlines the punishment for BOTH adultery AND fornication, is 100 lashes by way of flog. The question again is, WHY did Muhammad use what was in the Bible? Again, only 1 of 2 answers to that question a) Muhammad got it from the text of the Torah. b) Gabriel dictated it to him. Moving along. Quote from uniquecover: Good thing you're not a scholar, then, who can pass legal rulings in Islaam because then you'd be leading people astray and telling them to commit kufr by having them ignore the sunnah. Funny, Muhammad himself did JUST that. As I pointed out above, the Qur'an (which is GOD'S word) commands 100 lashes as punishment for BOTH adultery and fornication, yet Muhammad judged by Deuteronomy 22:23-24 If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the young woman because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man’s wife. You must purge the evil from among you. WHY? When we include Deuteronomy 22:23-24, where up to like 20+ commandments fromn Torah that Muhammad actually upheld and judged by, yet you keep saying it cannot be used. You're ALREADY using it. You're just reading it from the Qur'an instead of the Bible. In response to my statement Remember what YOU said, a Muslim who sins (if you would consider obeying the Qur'an a sin ) is STILL a Muslim, as long as they don't deny that they're sinning You stated Quote from uniquecover: Yep. I even reiterated it in my previous post. I know my beliefs. As for your comment in the parenthesis, of course I don't. That's good to know. Quote from uniquecover:Egypt is WAY better than it was under Mubarak. Still a long way to go, but at least change is happening. And Saudi Arabia has MANY faults, but they're the closest out of all of them in implementing the Qur'aan or sunnah. However, my problem with all of them is the same as my problem with all of the above - none of them completely rule by the Qur'aan & sunnah. Therefore, they cannot be called Islaamic governments. That's kinda sad to hear, becuase that would mean there are NO Islamic governments on Earth, as I have already listed ALL the nations in which Islam is the state religion. [Edited 10/22/2012 12:56:37 PM ]
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uniquecover Aurora, IL 29, joined Jul. 2012	Quote from xman7900: WOW!! I don't even know what to say. No offense, but you REALLY sound , and it's this type of denial, that makes many westerners fearful and distrusting of Muslims like yourself. Let them. Not my problem they (non-Muslim Westerners who are scared of Muslims (Muslim westerns, specifically) like me) don't want to accept that the Qur'aan says that the only religion accepted of people is Islaam. Not my problem that non-Muslims such as yourself want to interpret the Qur'aan in a way that suits your desires. Never will the Jews nor the Christians be pleased with you (O Muhammad Peace be upon him ) till you follow their religion. Say: "Verily, the Guidance of Allah (i.e. Islamic Monotheism) that is the (only) Guidance. And if you (O Muhammad Peace be upon him ) were to follow their (Jews and Christians) desires after what you have received of Knowledge (i.e. the Qur'an), then you would have against Allah neither any Wali (protector or guardian) nor any helper. (Al-Baqarah 2:120) You stated that the punishment for adultery is in an Islaamic state after one is found guilty is being stoned to death if that person is/was married and 100 lashes for those who aren't/weren't. Where did the stoning to death come from? The sunnah. It was narrated from Jaabir that a man from (the tribe of) Aslam came to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) when he was in the mosque and he said, “I have committed adultery.” The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) turned his face away from him. The man came to that side to which the Prophet had turned his face, and testified against himself four times. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, "Are you mad?” He said, “No.” The Prophet said, “Are you married?" He said, "Yes.” So he commanded that he be stoned in the Musalla (Eid prayer place). When the stones troubled him, he ran away, until he was caught in al-Harrah and killed. Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 4969; Muslim, 1691. There are several other examples. Like I said, there are things in Hajj that we do that Abraham (peace be upon him) did. But the fact that he did those actions is not the primary reason WE, Muslims, do them. We do those rituals because the Prophet MUHAMMAD (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) did because he was commanded by ALLAAH to. Everything that involves acts of worship in Islaam is taken from the Qur'aan or the sunnah. NO WHERE else. Now, do we mention the explanation that Abraham (peace be upon him) also did it? Sure. But, again, if Allaah never told Muhammad (peace & blessings of Allaah be upon him) to do it, we wouldn't do it. I'm not saying that that is why a person BORN into Islam accepts that, OBVIOUSLY one born into Islam would not know about Torah at all, except what is written of nit in the Qur'an. But converts from Judaism and Christianity would IMMEDIATELY recognize that as one of the commanments of Torah. That's all I'm saying. So it's a similarity but that's not why they would abide by it (just because it's similar to the Torah). They would abide by it because the religion they converted into says so. You seem to have a HATRED of the Torah, why I don't know because Muhammad implemented many laws from the Torah. I don't and Allaah is a witness to my feelings. I love ALL of the revelations from my Lord. But that doesn't mean that Muslism will use them as our source for Islaamic law because, again, our source is the Qur'aan and the sunnah. However, YOU seem to have an aversion to the Qur'aan with the exception of that one verse of the Qur'aan being a muhaymin over all of the previous Scriptures. It doesn't matter whether Muhammad got them from the text (of the Bible), or whether Gabriel dictated them to him, the fact of the matter is, they appeared in the Torah FIRST. And? Why then does Muhammad use what was in the Old Testament? He hears and obeys Allaah, just like we (Muslims) hear and obey Allaah and His Messenger. If Allaah did not command him to have this be the punishment for THIS ummah (nation), then he would not have done so. Again, the ones who were not previously married are LASHED 100 times. The ones who were NOT married are stoned to death in an Islaamic state. If they arent't married it is NOT adultery, it is fornication, and An-Nur 24:2 CLEARLY outlines the punishment for BOTH adultery AND fornication, is 100 lashes by way of flog. Incorrect. The Arabic just says the "zaniyah & zani" (female & male adulterer - but it doesn't mean the one who is married here; it has a more general meaning & refers to the unmarried. Ibn Hajar, the renowned scholar, explained this). Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Receive (teaching) from me, receive (teaching) from me. Allah has ordained a way for those (women). When an unmarried male commits adultery with an unmarried female (they should receive) one hundred lashes and banishment for one year. And in case of married male committing adultery with a married female, they shall receive one hundred lashes and be stoned to death. [Saheeh Muslim] Funny, Muhammad himself did JUST that. As I pointed out above, the Qur'an (which is GOD'S word) commands 100 lashes as punishment for BOTH adultery and fornication, yet Muhammad judged by Deuteronomy 22:23-24 Really? Did you REALLY just compare yourself to the Messenger of Allaah, the one who received revelations from GOD? The one to whom new laws were revealed?! And did you just say that he leads people astray? You say you know the significance of the sunnah, but this alone just proved that you don't. Because if you knew ANYTHING about the verses of hearing & obeying Allaah & The Messenger & how the sunnah is also a revelation from God, you would never have said that. WHY? When we include Deuteronomy 22:23-24, where up to like 20+ commandments fromn Torah that Muhammad actually upheld and judged by, yet you keep saying it cannot be used. You're ALREADY using it. You're just reading it from the Qur'an instead of the Bible. You just answered your own question. The fact that it is in the Qur'aan/the sunnah is the reason why we follow those laws. No other reason. That's kinda sad to hear, becuase that would mean there are NO Islamic governments on Earth, as I have already listed ALL the nations in which Islam is the state religion. Tell me about it. It is, indeed, very sad. Now you know one of the main grievances of the Muslims.
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xman7900 Richmond, VA 38, joined Apr. 2012	to uniquecover, stay online as I am typing my response now and would like to see your response to it when I am done.
10/22/2012 3:45:16 PM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 14
uniquecover Aurora, IL 29, joined Jul. 2012	sorry I didn't mean: Again, the ones who were not previously married are LASHED 100 times. The ones who were NOT married are stoned to death in an Islaamic state. I meant the ones who WERE married are stoned to death in an Islaamic state if they are found guilty of the crime.
10/22/2012 3:50:20 PM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 14
xman7900 Richmond, VA 38, joined Apr. 2012	Is Ibn Hajar's interpretation of An-Nur 24:2 BETTER than Yusuf Ali's? If so, WHY then, is Yusuf Ali's interpretation included in the Qur'an and NOT Ibn Hajar's? So it's a similarity but that's not why they would abide by it (just because it's similar to the Torah). They would abide by it because the religion they converted into says so. I already stated that is was not THE REASON you abide by it, my point is that a Jew or Christian who may have NEVER have heard of the Qur'an or Sunnah (and there ARE Jews and Christians who are not familiar with them) obeys Muhammad when they obey the SAME laws that he commanded. Obviously, if they NEVER heard of the Qur'an and Sunnah, they must have gotten thopse laws from somewhere. If NOT the Qur'an and Sunnah, WHERE else? He hears and obeys Allaah, just like we (Muslims) hear and obey Allaah and His Messenger. And Jew or Chritian who may have NEVER heard of the Qur'an and Sunnah, YET obeys the SAME laws that are contained WITHIN them doesn't? Did you REALLY just compare yourself to the Messenger of Allaah, the one who received revelations from GOD? Actually no, I am did not and am not. Sorry you misinterpreted that. maybe I should have phrased that differently.
10/22/2012 4:01:55 PM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 14
xman7900 Richmond, VA 38, joined Apr. 2012	to uniquecover For the record, I have NO problem with the Qur'an or Sunnah, and discussing Islam with you has begun to reignite my faith, in fact i am sincerely thinking of becoming a Muslim, as we (as in you and I in our discussions) do have common ground. My only reservation is that you keep refering to books sources outside of the Qur'an and Sunnah, which makes me wonder if there are secrets of islam that only those who speak Arabic know. I cannot be a part of a religion I can't understand. Does that make sense?
10/22/2012 4:22:43 PM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 14
uniquecover Aurora, IL 29, joined Jul. 2012	Quote from xman7900: Is Ibn Hajar's interpretation of An-Nur 24:2 BETTER than Yusuf Ali's? There is no comparison between the two men's knowledge, first of all. Ibn Hajar (death 1448 CE) was one of the many amazing & incredible scholars that the Muslim nation has been blessed with. He is one of the more prominent scholars (and he wrote a commentary on Saheeh Bukhaari, an indispensable work). Yusuf Ali (death 1953), on the other hand, was not a scholar to the best of my knowledge. He just translated the Qur'aan from Arabic to English. And he made many mistakes and included unorthodox/heretical views into his translation. Secondly, I included the hadeeth which clearly explained this (the unmarried zani & zaaniyah get flogged whereas the married zani & zaaniyah get stoned to death). If so, WHY then, is Yusuf Ali's interpretation included in the Qur'an and NOT Ibn Hajar's? Because it's Yusuf Ali's translation? I already stated that is was not THE REASON you abide by it, my point is that a Jew or Christian who may have NEVER have heard of the Qur'an or Sunnah (and there ARE Jews and Christians who are not familiar with them) obeys Muhammad when they obey the SAME laws that he commanded. Someone not having heard of Islaam or had the ability to research it in this day and age? Very, very unlikely unless they're a tribe in the Amazon or something. Presuming that they HAVE heard of Islaam/had the ability to research it, the condition of acceptance of deeds is emaan (faith); they must be Muslims. Otherwise, no matter how many good things one does, if they don't die upon emaan, the only difference it'll make for them is which level in Hell they're going to be in. Obviously, if they NEVER heard of the Qur'an and Sunnah, they must have gotten thopse laws from somewhere. If NOT the Qur'an and Sunnah, WHERE else? That's not the point....my point is that we, as Muslims, do things ONLY because it's written in the Qur'aan & the sunnah. And Jew or Chritian who may have NEVER heard of the Qur'an and Sunnah, YET obeys the SAME laws that are contained WITHIN them doesn't? So, once more, you're talking about the 'in the middle of nowhere' tribes who have never heard the Message of Islaam nor do they have any ability to research it on their own? In that case, they will be tested on the Day of Judgement to determine where they will be going (Paradise or Hell). Actually no, I am did not and am not. Sorry you misinterpreted that. maybe I should have phrased that differently. ok.
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xman7900 Richmond, VA 38, joined Apr. 2012	Are there SECRETS of Islam that only those who speak Arabic know?
10/22/2012 4:32:57 PM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 14
uniquecover Aurora, IL 29, joined Jul. 2012	Quote from xman7900: to uniquecover For the record, I have NO problem with the Qur'an or Sunnah, and discussing Islam with you has begun to reignite my faith, in fact i am sincerely thinking of becoming a Muslim, as we (as in you and I in our discussions) do have common ground. My only reservation is that you keep refering to books sources outside of the Qur'an and Sunnah, which makes me wonder if there are secrets of islam that only those who speak Arabic know. I cannot be a part of a religion I can't understand. Does that make sense? 1.) In that case, sincerely pray to Allaah to guide you to the Truth because I have no doubt that whoever does so sincerely WILL be guided. All of your doubts will be expelled. 2.) Well, most of the books I mention quote the Qur'aan or the sunnah as their basis. MOST, if not all, of the best works are in Arabic and many have not been translated yet. That's a reason why so many desire to learn the language because MANY people say that there is nothing comparable to the original language. There are a lot of things lost in translation. Some scholars say that it is mandatory on a person to learn Arabic (not just to read the Qur'aan, but to read and understand other works as well). However, even reading things in English should be enough. Learning Arabic fluently just sweetens the deal.
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xman7900 Richmond, VA 38, joined Apr. 2012	So again, are there any SECRETS of Islam that only rthose who speak Arabic know?
10/22/2012 4:43:49 PM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 14
xman7900 Richmond, VA 38, joined Apr. 2012	to uniquecover Your hesitation to answer my question scares me. It should be a simple yes or no.
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ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 64, joined Feb. 2008	Maybe we are wrong to do so but most non-Moslems in the world view Islam as a violent and warlike religion, founded by a violent and warlike man known in history as Mohammed. Why are Christians in Nigeria, Sudan, and other parts of Africa being persecuted so severely by Moslems? Why do Moslems raid their villages and sell them into slavery? Why can't Moslems just let Israel be? And why did no Moslem leader, religious or political, speak out against the attacks of Sep. 11, 2001, or other attacks carried out by Moslem terrorists? Why are women who are raped stoned to death in Moslem countries? Why are women treated so badly in Moslem countries? I have heard it said that the Moslem religion gives carte blanche in morality to the Moslem male. Would you say that this is a correct description of the Moslem religion? If not, it certainly seems that way to most non-Moslems. Is it true that the Jordanian government will give $20,000 to the family of anyone who carries out a suicide attack against Israel? (I am not one of these gung-ho fanatical suporters of Israel--I know full well that both Moslem and Christian Palestinians have some legitimate greviences against Israel, but let's face it--whether we like it or not Israel is there to stay. Why can't Moslems just leave Israel alone? What can be accomplished by all this bloodshed?)
10/22/2012 4:51:51 PM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 14
uniquecover Aurora, IL 29, joined Jul. 2012	Quote from xman7900: So again, are there any SECRETS of Islam that only rthose who speak Arabic know? It's not a secret if it's out in the open and anybody can learn it. And if someone does not want to learn Arabic, then they are at the mercy of translators to a certain extent. Again, the translated material is sufficient, but it is no where near what the Arabic is like. Those who are scholars know more than me and all laymen Muslims - but it's not a secret. I, too, could become a scholar if I had enough dedication.
10/22/2012 4:54:07 PM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 14
uniquecover Aurora, IL 29, joined Jul. 2012	Quote from ludlowlowell: Maybe we are wrong to do so You just keep repeating the same old stuff. Do you ever come back to read responses to your questions? Or do you just pose the questions just to try to villify Islaam and then leave again?
10/22/2012 4:55:59 PM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 14
asanb Sanbornton, NH 61, joined Jul. 2012	Quote from jim_a49: I agree with you 100% there. Most muslims know very little about the religion, and are devoted to what they think is the religion. This is especially true in the United states, We have countless muslim converts, that really have no concept of the actual creation and execution of Islam. But here is where it gets dangerous, these people are becoming brainwashed into what they think is a religion, and are actually pawns for the clerics, and Imans who run the show. Remember, it is these clerics, and Imans, that do not want you reading the original text. You ignore the concept of INTENTION. And personal responsibility. Any one can read ( or be mislead by preachers about) any of the worlds scriptures and come away with a focussed desire for god, or a focussed delusion that they are directed by God to commit murder. In light of the fact that better than 90% (from a previous post)of the worlds Muslims are peacfull devotees and good neighbors, It would seem evidentiary that this Blind leading the blind scenario (Radical Extremism)is more rare than is put forth. and I bet it's just as common for people to be duped by commercials on the media and manipulated by greedy politicians as are brainwashed by unscrupulous clerics. I do not see the evil you proclaim to be any more prevalent in Islamaphobic prognostications than in any other venue of human endeavor. As a matter of fact, there have been recent Hoax postings about a mass wedding of pre teen girls that only proves to me that the paranoia over Islam is being perpetrated by people who will lie and manipulate stories to support thier claims. They discredit your efforts in doing so, if your efforts are honest.
10/22/2012 5:13:28 PM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 14
xman7900 Richmond, VA 38, joined Apr. 2012	Quote from uniquecover: It's not a secret if it's out in the open and anybody can learn it. And if someone does not want to learn Arabic, then they are at the mercy of translators to a certain extent. Again, the translated material is sufficient, but it is no where near what the Arabic is like. Those who are scholars know more than me and all laymen Muslims - but it's not a secret. I, too, could become a scholar if I had enough dedication. 1. Were you born here in America or abroad? If abroad, from what country? 2. How well do you know Arabic? 3. Some people would say it is disingenuos to say on 1 hand that the translated material is sufficient, yet on the other say that it is NO WHERE NEAR what the Arabic is like. What does that mean? How can that be? 4. Touching on the subject of Islamic academic authority, would you consider Qu'ran.com a reliable source from which to study the Qur'an? The site features translations in over 25 lanuages, including English, and interpretations of Sahih International Muhsin Khan Pickthall Yusuf Ali Shakir Dr. Ghali
10/22/2012 7:08:33 PM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 14
uniquecover Aurora, IL 29, joined Jul. 2012	Quote from xman7900: 1. Were you born here in America or abroad? If abroad, from what country? America. 2. How well do you know Arabic? Not well enough AT ALL. My dream is to be able to read classical works God-Willing. Still learning. 3. Some people would say it is disingenuos to say on 1 hand that the translated material is sufficient, yet on the other say that it is NO WHERE NEAR what the Arabic is like. What does that mean? How can that be? Sufficient as in you get the basic understanding of what is trying to be conveyed. But, still, you won't have the same depth of understanding as the one who is an Arabic speaker. This is a good lecture: 4. Touching on the subject of Islamic academic authority, would you consider Qu'ran.com a reliable source from which to study the Qur'an? The site features translations in over 25 lanuages, including English, and interpretations of Sahih International Muhsin Khan Pickthall Yusuf Ali Shakir Dr. Ghali I, myself, would go with Sahih International or the next two on that list. I also like Noble (not on that list). The reason being that they include in parentheses SOME of the exegesis to give some context. Obviously, it's not a comprehensive exegesis, but to give you somewhat of a better idea of what is being talked about. And the English is understandable in Sahih International & Noble. [Edited 10/22/2012 7:11:42 PM ]
10/22/2012 7:08:43 PM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 14
jim_a49 Bellevue, WA 67, joined Dec. 2010	Arabic is a primitive language compared to english, spanish, German, etc. There is nothing in arabic that cannot be translated into English, Not so, the other way around. Since I have been involved with Islam, about 7 years, one thing I have noticed was the regression of excuses. The writtin doctrine is evil to the core, and when a person says something one of the common excuses was, It has to be said in arabic to understand. That is sheer baloney. A translation depends entirly on the persons knowledge of both languages, and there will be variations,but these arein words only and the meaning is the same. The implacation givin is that is not what it really says, but in fact it is an excuse meant for you to think it means something different. When I am confronted with muslims who do this, I ask them, OK, what is your translation, and we can compare notes. That usually stops them dead in their tracks. Here is an example of Qur'an 8;67, by the 5 top translations. I want to point out that Nobel is the accepted top generally and is in all the mosques, that is why I like to use it. Achmed Ali No apostle should take captives until he has battled and subdued the country. You desire the vanities of this world, but God wills (for you the reward) of the world to come; and God is all-mighty and all-wise. Noble It is not for a Prophet that he should have prisoners of war (and free them with ransom) until he had made a great slaughter (among his enemies) in the land. You desire the good of this world (i.e. the money of ransom for freeing the captives), but Allâh desires (for you) the Hereafter. And Allâh is All- Mighty, All-Wise. Pithcal It is not for any prophet to have captives until he hath made slaughter in the land. Ye desire the lure of this world and Allah desireth (for you) the Hereafter, and Allah is Mighty, Wise. Shakir It is not fit for a prophet that he should take captives unless he has fought and triumphed in the land; you desire the frail goods of this world, while Allah desires (for you) the hereafter; and Allah is Mighty, Wise. Yousaf Ali It is not fitting for a prophet that he should have prisoners of war until he hath thoroughly subdued the land. Ye look for the temporal goods of this world; but Allah looketh to the Hereafter: And Allah is Exalted in might, Wise. I have a new Qur'an, Hague, that I really like because it breaks down each page into three things, the original Arabic, the english translation, and the variations of certian words. Another common excuse was, that in heaven virgins really meant perals, or rasins. while that is true, if you follow the rest of the story, Some are 60 cubits tall. some have transparent legs. Some have huge black eyes. All re-grow their virginity just for you, ( sexual sadistic) Bacically there is no arguement anymore that virgins, meant women. I have come accross a lot of these excuses, just in my short time that were proposterus, and are not even used anymore, though once in a while someone pulls one out. I have also noticed the changes in the scripts on the new apologist books, creating an entirly different story than the one documented. This is another that was abused throughly, but I seldom hear it anymore, though someone right here, tried to fool me with it last week. Qur'an 5:32 "He who kills a single person kills all of mankind, he who saves a single life, saves all mankind."
10/22/2012 7:37:09 PM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 14
jim_a49 Bellevue, WA 67, joined Dec. 2010	Instead of leaving people hanging, I am going to post the complete text and reasoning for the last verse I posted. This verse was actually plageized, and modified, from the Adam and Eve story. Qur'an 5:32 "We ordained for the Children of Israel that if anyone killed a person not in retaliation of murder, or (and) to spread mischief in the land - it would be as if he killed all mankind,..." The Qur'an defines "mischief makers" as those who reject Islam or oppose its goals. So, the verse is actually saying that he who kills a Muslim kills all of mankind. However, it gets MUCH worse. The very next verse in the Qur'an tells Muslims exactly how to handle these exceptions. Again, from the Noble Qur'an: Qur'an 5:33 "The recompense of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off on the opposite sides, or be exiled from the land. That is their disgrace in this world, and a great torment is theirs in the Hereafter." So, it wasn't enough that this edict to not kill only applies to the children of Israel. Islam needed to give a menu of tortures and painful deaths for Muslims to inflict upon those who dared defend themselves - often against sieging Muslims. This passage of peace also assures Muslims that those whom they brutally torture will not have their pain end upon their death. Allah, in an oft-repeated theme in Islam, has a special sadistic eternity of torture for those who do not submit to him.
10/22/2012 10:28:34 PM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 14
xman7900 Richmond, VA 38, joined Apr. 2012	To uniquecover, I'm sure you are familiar with Abul Ala Maududi, a well respected Islamic philosopher, auhor, and founder of the Jamaat-e-Islami political party. I ran across his name doing some research, and it seems MY position on Torah and Gospel ECHO his. Here's what he stated on the issue: There exists a common misconception about the Torah (Taurat) and the Gospel (lnjil), for the people generally take the Pentateuch (the first five books of the Old Testament) for the Torah, and the Gospels (the first four books of the New Testament) for *the Injil. The misconception* creates doubts about Revelation itself and a question arises, 'Are these books really the Word of God? And does the Holy Quran really confirm all their contents?' As a matter of fact, the *Torah, which the Quran confirms, is not* the Pentateuch but is contained IN it, and the *Injil* is not 'the four Gospels' but is WITHIN these books. The *Taurat* consists of those commandments and injunctions which were given to Prophet Moses (Allah's peace be upon him) during his Prophethood, which lasted for about forty years. Of these were the Ten Commandments, which were inscribed on stone tablets and delivered to Moses on Mount Tur: as regards the remaining Commandments and injunctions he (Moses) himself had put down in writing. Then he handed one copy of the Torah to each of the twelve tribes of Israel for guidance. One copy was entrusted to the Levites for safe custody, which along with the stone tablets, was deposited in the Ark. ...it is obvious that the Pentateuch as a whole is not the Taurat, but INCLUDES it. The REAL Taurat comprises those verses which are scattered all over the life story of Prophet Moses, and it is not difficult even today to locate and recognize them. Such portions where the author says, 'God said to Moses,' or Moses said 'the Lord your God says,', the *Taurat* begins, and where the narrative of the life story is resumed, there that part of the *Taurat* ends. At those places the author of the Bible has inserted certain things by way of explanation or commentary, and it is HERE that the ordinary reader fails to distinguish the REAL Taurat from the commentary. However, those who have an insight into the nature of Divine Scriptures, can distinguish, to some degree of EXACTNESS, the explanatory notes from the revealed verses. According to the QUR'AN, only such scattered portions in the Pentateuch are the Taurat and it confirms them alone. And this can be testified by putting together these verses and comparing them with the Quran. Here and there one might come across a minor difference in their details, but one cannot find even the slightest difference between the fundamental teachings of the two. Even today, one can see CLEARLY that BOTH the Scriptures have come from the SAME source. Likewise, the Injil is the name of those inspired discourses and sayings which Jesus (Allah's peace be upon him) uttered as a prophet during the last couple of years of his life. We have no means of recognizing them from the works of the authors except this Wherever the authors say, 'Jesus said so or taught so and so', there the Injil begins and whence they resume the narration, there it ends. According to the Quran, only such portions are the Injil and these alone are confirmed by it. If these portions are compiled together and compared with the Quran, one will find no serious difference between the two, and, if somewhere a trivial difference appears, it can be removed very easily with unbiased thinking. As you can see, MY position is the the SAME as Abul Ala Maududi's. And you said NO MUSLIM claims what I claim. I find it QUITE AMAZING that I should come across Abul Ala Maududi's name, only because he came to America, to BUFFALO, Newyork, MY HOME TOWN, just one month after I was born in 1979. I never met him, but we share the SAME perspective on The Qur'an, Torah, and Gospel.
10/22/2012 10:37:17 PM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 14
jim_a49 Bellevue, WA 67, joined Dec. 2010	I am having a difficule time even watching this. The Torah, and gospels were writtin by people trying to start a religion,which they did. The Qur'an has the same intents, but it was plagerized from these already existing works. There are going to be similarities, and even contradictions, bt it is not the result of divine inspiration as is presented and they just happen to confim each other, It is because one was coppied fron the other, and writtin into it's own contex.
10/22/2012 11:53:41 PM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 14
uniquecover Aurora, IL 29, joined Jul. 2012	Quote from xman7900: To uniquecover, I'm sure you are familiar with Abul Ala Maududi, a well respected Islamic philosopher, auhor, and founder of the Jamaat-e-Islami political party. I ran across his name doing some research, and it seems MY position on Torah and Gospel ECHO his. Source, please. Where did he write this? Secondly, I don't think he's saying all of the uncorrupted Injeel or Torah remain in the corrupted Injeel/Torah.....just that there are still some uncorrupted parts in them. Kind of like saying that not all of the Injeel/Torah are truthful, but there is still some truth within them. And I, myself, said that too. Thirdly, I don't know where he got the portion that the stuff in red in the King James version of the Bible is REALLY what Jesus (peace be upon him) said. I've never heard a scholar say that. I am genuinely curious. Fourthly, just because he says something doesn't make it true. Only the Prophets were infallible in conveying the message of Islaam. Fifthly, he never even implied that the Torah or the Injeel still apply (even if there were any uncorrupted versions available). And you said NO MUSLIM claims what I claim. What is it exactly that you claimed? And what is it exactly that I said in response? I seek refuge with Allaah from arrogance/pride. If I was wrong, I'll admit it.
10/23/2012 12:27:08 AM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 14
xman7900 Richmond, VA 38, joined Apr. 2012	Quote from uniquecover: Source, please. Where did he write this? Mawdudi, S. Abul A'la, The Meaning of the Qur'an, Islamic Publications Ltd., Lahore, 1993 edition. I am aware that Abul Ala Mawdudi died in 1979, obviously the 1993 edition is a reprint. Secondly, I don't think he's saying all of the uncorrupted Injeel or Torah remain in the corrupted Injeel/Torah.....just that there are still some uncorrupted parts in them. Kind of like saying that not all of the Injeel/Torah are truthful, but there is still some truth within them. And I, myself, said that too. His statement was VERY CLEAR Such portions where the author says, 'God said to Moses,' or Moses said 'the Lord your God says,', the *Taurat* begins, and where the narrative of the life story is resumed, there that part of the *Taurat* ends. At those places the author of the Bible has inserted certain things by way of explanation or commentary, and it is HERE that the ordinary reader fails to distinguish the REAL Taurat from the commentary. However, those who have an insight into the nature of Divine Scriptures, can distinguish, to some degree of EXACTNESS, the explanatory notes from the revealed verses. Thirdly, I don't know where he got the portion that the stuff in red in the King James version of the Bible is REALLY what Jesus (peace be upon him) said. I've never heard a scholar say that. I am genuinely curious. Here's what he said regarding that the Injil is the name of those inspired discourses and sayings which Jesus (Allah's peace be upon him) uttered as a prophet during the last couple of years of his life. We have no means now of ascertaining whether these pious utterances were recorded and compiled during the lifetime of Jesus. In the introduction to his translation of the Bible, Moffat says, 'Jesus wrote nothing and for a time his immediate disciples felt no impulse to write any account of him. The data of the historical Jesus, therefore is based on the vivid recollections and traditions of the primitive Palestinian disciples. How soon their materials took written shape we cannot tell, but at least one written record of them was probably in existence by about A.D. 50.' Anyhow, when, long after his recall, the stories of Jesus were compiled in the shape of four Gospels, (the period of the composition of Mark, the first to be composed was 65-75 A.D.), some of his written or inspired sayings were also inserted at appropriate places in the historical sketches. Thus it is obvious that the first four Gospels are not the Injil, the discourses and sayings of Jesus, but they contain it. . What follows the above quote, I have posted in my last post. Fourthly, just because he says something doesn't make it true. Only the Prophets were infallible in conveying the message of Islaam. Fifthly, he never even implied that the Torah or the Injeel still apply (even if there were any uncorrupted versions available). 1. That is true, but I hold his opinion in VERY HIGH reagrd, as he is considered an Islamic scholar (at least by some), and his organization Jamaat-e-Islami is held in high regard in Pakistan. So I think his perspective is HIGHLY RELIABLE. 2. See his 1st quote in this post. What is it exactly that you claimed? And what is it exactly that I said in response? I seek refuge with Allaah from arrogance/pride. If I was wrong, I'll admit it. Quote from xman7900: The Bible IS corrupted yes, BUT, I have proven that God's message (which is the way to his STRAIGHT path) is NOT, and is *STILL INTACT* WITHIN the Bible. I have already proven that. Either way, they ARE STILL obeying the Qur'an and Muhammad, therefore they ARE Muslims. Remember Al-`Ankabut 29:46 And argue NOT with the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), unless it be in (a way) that is better (with good words and in good manner, inviting them to Islamic Monotheism with His Verses), except with such of them as do wrong, and say (to them): "We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you; our Ilah (God) and your Ilah (God) is One (i.e. Allah), and to Him we have submitted (as Muslims)."**
10/23/2012 12:36:02 AM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 14
xman7900 Richmond, VA 38, joined Apr. 2012	Don't forget he also said According to the QUR'AN, only such scattered portions in the Pentateuch are the *Taurat* and it *confirms* them alone. And this can be testified by putting together these verses and comparing them with the Quran. Here and there one might come across a minor difference in their details, but one cannot find even the slightest difference between the fundamental teachings of the two. Even today, one can see CLEARLY that BOTH the Scriptures have come from the SAME source.
10/23/2012 12:49:55 AM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 14
xman7900 Richmond, VA 38, joined Apr. 2012	'Ali `Imran 3:84 Sahih International Say, "We have believed in Allah AND in what was revealed to us AND what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Descendants, AND in what was given to Moses and Jesus AND to the prophets from their Lord. We make NO distinction between ANY of them, and we are Muslims [submitting] to Him."
10/23/2012 3:17:38 AM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 14
jim_a49 Bellevue, WA 67, joined Dec. 2010	xman The problem we have trying to rationalize with the three books here, is that the Qur'an was put together by compilers, not authers, there was not a whole lot of thought put into it. It was assembled from whatever writings existed, and in the 9th century, made into a book and the law of the land. The Qur'an at that time did not have to compeate with anything, so it did not have to make any sence, as it does not. it is constant contradictions, abrogations, and full of Impossibilities. It is very obviousally assembled with little scholactic knowledge, The law was, as is today, believe and accept this, or die. we have to go back into time, there is Islam's first book burning, where at least 5 other Qur'an's are destroyed, to estlablish the one and only, some survived, but are being hidden by Islam. The jews had just been purged from the country, leaving in their wake lots of writtin material. The writtin language is brand new, and few people are literate. xman, you seem to know your way around the Torah, so you can test this far better than I. Virtually everything philisophical, in the Qur'an and sunnah, was plagerized from another source, there is very little original material, and that is usually restricted to the modification of the main players, from the judeo/christian lore. I would like you to read Bukhari, and look for comparisions to jewish writings, it is online and easily available. What we are dealing with here is the command, and curse, by Islam is that the ur'an is the unchanged word for word, message from God. so any logic used by Islamic scholars in the comparisons is to see where the judeo/christian writings made their mistake, not where the Qur'an made it's own. also we have the words of muhammed where the jews and christiand intentionally modified their writings just to deny him. an absurd statement, but one made from his world, where he had no way of knowing the exact same writings already existed, in other places thousands of miles away. Anyways, to look at the finished products,and try to argue them is senceless.
10/23/2012 10:19:08 AM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 14
uniquecover Aurora, IL 29, joined Jul. 2012	His statement was VERY CLEAR I still don’t see where he said that all of the Torah is intact – or that the only issue with the present-day Torah is that the REAL Torah is scattered all over in the PRESENT-DAY Torah. Here's what he said regarding that You, yourself, quoted the paragraph that has this portion: some of his written or inspired sayings were also inserted at appropriate places in the historical sketches. That is true, but I hold his opinion in VERY HIGH reagrd, as he is considered an Islamic scholar (at least by some), and his organization Jamaat-e-Islami is held in high regard in Pakistan. Though Mawdudi was a learned man, he made some critical errors in some fundamental aspects of our creed (such as about the Attributes of Allaah) – and he wasn’t even born in an era where this wasn’t being commonly refuted. He has good and bad in his works. May Allaah reward him for the good and forgive him for any errors. Ameen As for what you claim (that you and Mawdudi have the same message and that he claimed the same as you), then please show me where he said that the Jews and the Christians who follow the modern-day Torah & Bible are Muslims. In any case, EVEN IF everything you say regarding Mawdudi is true (even your interpretation that he meant that all of the Torah & Injeel are intact within the present-day Torah & Bible), the only point I’d stand corrected on is that no Muslim has ever claimed such. I still don’t believe that it is correct. I don’t know why he assumes that just because the Christians say that the stuff in red is what Jesus (peace be upon him) said, that it must be true. We have sciences of hadeeth for a reason in Islaam – we don’t believe that the Prophet said something just because random, unknown people said it’s true. We believe it because of the chain of narrators (proven) is authentic & truthful. That’s why scholars grade/classify hadeeth. So if we’re so careful about something much more recent than Jesus (peace be upon him), how can we just believe what the Christians claim so easily? Same with the Torah. Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah said in al-Jawaab al-Saheeh (3:21): “With regard to the Gospels that the Christians have, there are four Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. They are agreed that Luke and Mark did not see the Messiah, rather he was seen by Matthew and John. These four accounts which they call the Gospel, and they call each one of them a Gospel, were written by these men after the Messiah had been taken up into heaven. They did not say that they are the word of God or that the Messiah conveyed them from God, rather they narrated some of the words of the Messiah and some of his deeds and miracles. ” Moreover, these books which were written after the time of the Messiah did not remain in their original form. The original versions were lost long ago. Ibn Hazm said: “With regard to the Christians, there is no dispute among them or anyone else that only one hundred and twenty men believed in the Messiah during his lifetime… and all of those who believed in him concealed themselves and were afraid during his lifetime and afterwards; they called people to his religion in secret and none of them disclosed himself or practised his religion openly, because any of them who was caught was executed. They continued in this manner, not showing themselves at all, and they had no place where they were safe for three hundred years after the Messiah was taken up into heaven. *During this time, the Gospel that had been revealed from Allaah disappeared, apart from a few verses* which Allaah preserved as proof against them and as a rebuke to them,** as we have mentioned. Then when the Emperor Constantine became a Christian, then the Christians prevailed and started to practise their religion openly and assemble in safety. If a religion is like this, with its followers practicing it in secret and living in constant fear of the sword, it is impossible for things to be transmitted soundly via a continuous chain of narrators and its followers cannot protect it or prevent it from being distorted. ” Al-Fasl, 2/4-5. In addition to this huge disruption in the chain of transmission of their books, which lasted for two centuries, these books did not remain in the languages in which they were originally written, rather they were translated, more than once, by people whose level of knowledge and honesty is unknown. http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/47516 As for 3:84, again, that just means that we believe in all of the Prophets and Revelations and reject none of them. We don’t say that one was a Prophet or a Revelation while another wasn’t. In the end, we are to follow the laws revealed to Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) regardless of what one's beliefs are in how much of the present-day Torah & Bible are the original Words of God. We covered this extensively over the span of a few pages already.
10/23/2012 10:41:07 AM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith \| Page 14
xman7900 Richmond, VA 38, joined Apr. 2012	Quote from jim_a49: The problem we have trying to rationalize with the three books here, is that the Qur'an was put together by compilers, not authers, there was not a whole lot of thought put into it. No, the problem is two-fold 1. Prejudices (of all types) on all sides (Chritisans, Muslims, and Jews) which lead to 2. Misinterpretation. The 3 books (Torah, Injeel, and Qur'an contain the SAME message.) The Qur'an expands,, SLIGHTLY, on this message, but ALL confirm each other and are valid. Regarding the Torah, EVEN Muhammad himself JUDGED by it, AFTER having recieved Qur'an, as reported by Sunan Abu Dawud. Keep in mind Sunan Abu Dawud is one of the Al-Kutub al-Sittah (six major hadiths), just as Sahih al-Bukhari, therefore they are or (SHOULD) be held to the SAME authority. Anyway, here is the report from Sunan Abu Dawud on Muhammad JUDGING by the Torah. Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 38 (Kitab al-Hudud, i.e., Prescribed Punishments), No. 4434: Narrated Abdullah Ibn Umar: A group of Jews came and invited the Apostle of Allah (peace-be-upon-him) to Quff. So he visited them in their school. They said: Abul Qasim, one of our men has committed fornication with a woman; so pronounce judgement upon them. They placed a cushion for the Apostle of Allah (peace-be-upon-him) who sat on it and said: Bring the Torah. It was then brought. He then withdrew the cushion from beneath him and placed the Torah on it saying: I believed in thee and in Him who revealed thee. He then said: Bring me one who is learned among you. Then a young man was brought. The transmitter then mentioned the rest of the tradition of stoning similar to the one transmitted by Malik from Nafi'. This proves 2 things 1. Muhammad not only believes in the integrity of the Jewish Scripture (The Torah), but respects it enough to place it on a cushion! This in effect proves that corruption refers to misinterpretation, not to textual tampering. 2. The Torah is NOT abrogated, as it contains SAME laws of the Qur'an and Sunnah, Muhammad HIMSELF JUDGED by the Torah, then, and the SAME laws of the Torah that Muhammad JUDGED by THEN are STILL USED to JUDGE by TODAY, As I have demonstrated for uniquecover (and she CONFIRMED). One example that uniquecover HERSELF cited was the punishment for adultery, which is death by stoning. That is law was ORIGINALLY established in the Torah, the Qur'an CONFIRMS that law and therefore, that is the punishment for adultery in many Islamic nations. Although, the Qur'an ITSELF actually relaxes the penalty for adultery, as An-Nur 24:2 establishes 100 lashes by way of the flog for adultery. Therefore it would seem that God provided an ALATERNATIVE to the death penalty by stoning, which implies a degree of flexibility within His law on the subject (adultery) An-Nur 24:2 Yusuf Ali The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment. God knows best. Note to jim_a49 If the Qur'an is a fabrication, then the Bible (both the Old and New Testament and the Torah and Injeel contained WITHIN them) are fabrications as well, since Muhammad believed in the Torah (so much that he JUDGED by it), and the Qur'an simply CONFIRMS the Torah and Injeel. Even though most Jews and Christians do NOT OBEY the laws of the Torah or the commands of Jesus in the Injeel (they are Christians and Jews in NAME ONLY), if they are to be TRUE to their faith, they SHOULD. That they DON'T is the CAUSE of the differences between them and Muslims (who generally are TRUE in their faith), which LEADS to bloodshed. Perhaps I will start a thread on the subject.

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