Islamic Education: Origins of the faith

9/16/2012 10:00:52 AM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith
asanb Sanbornton, NH 61, joined Jul. 2012	(this post has been flagged as inappropriate, sorry.) Meet singles at DateHookup.dating, we're 100% free! Join now!
9/16/2012 10:03:35 AM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith
asanb Sanbornton, NH 61, joined Jul. 2012	The Prophet Muhammad Muslims believe that Islam is a faith that has always existed and that it was gradually revealed to humanity by a number of prophets, but the final and complete revelation of the faith was made through the Prophet Muhammad in the 7th century CE. Muhammad was born in Mecca in Saudi Arabia in 570. He was a deeply spiritual man, and often spent time in meditation on Mount Hira. The traditional story of the Qur'an tells how one night in 610 he was meditating in a cave on the mountain when he was visited by the angel Jibreel who ordered him to recite. Once Jibreel mentioned the name of Allah, Muhammad began to recite words which he came to believe were the words of God. The Qur'an During the rest of his life Muhammad continued to receive these revelations. The words were remembered and recorded, and form the text of the Holy Qu'ran, the Muslim scripture. Preaching Believing that God had chosen him as his messenger Muhammad began to preach what God had revealed to him. The simple and clear-cut message of Islam, that there is no Godbut Allah, and that life should be lived in complete submission to the will of Allah, was attractive to many people, and they flocked to hear it. The Hijrah Muhammad's popularity was seen as threatening by the people in power in Mecca, and Muhammad took his followers on a journey from Mecca to Medina in 622. This journey is called the Hijrah (migration) and the event was seen as so important for Islam that 622 is the year in which theIslamic calendar begins. The return to Mecca Within ten years Muhammad had gained so many followers that he was able to return and conquer Mecca. From this time on he was generally accepted by the faithful as the true final Prophet of God. Muhammad continued to lead his community both spiritually and in earthly matters until his death in 632.
9/16/2012 10:54:59 AM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith
chrisbrz Wilmette, IL 42, joined May. 2011	Here's a source for you where Christians haven't polluted the well so to speak. I don't have an intense enough interest in Islam to study it. But if I were too , a scholarly produced concordance and study of Qur'anic Hermenuetics would be a good idea. Oxford Islamic studies Click for- A concordance of the Qur'an
9/16/2012 11:17:35 AM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith
jim_a49 Bellevue, WA 67, joined Dec. 2010	One of the most critical things about learning islam, is that it is one lie after another. Not mistakes, lies, and lots of them. You will not learn about islam from an Islamic website, nor a Mosque, here in the states. You will learn what they want to tell you. Did muhammed even exist at all, probably sombody did exist to set up the main story. But it is the documented history that does exist, and the lack of other documents that cast a dim view what really happened. Muhammed himself is mentioned for the first time in recorded history about 60 years after the event, and everything prior is pure fabrication. These were illiterate desert people whth almost no history, because they couldn't write. The actual, only docoumented history of muhammed is not a holy man, he is a warlord, a murderer, thief and sexual pervert. This documented history worked fine for 1200 years, but now as we enter the 21st century they have all these writings they wish would go away. so they invent a new muhammed, but this invention is for the westerners
9/16/2012 11:20:24 AM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith
jim_a49 Bellevue, WA 67, joined Dec. 2010	Quote from clarencec: Part of an e-mail I received today from www.ex-muslim.org.uk relating to a recently screened on TV Channel 4 film, which I've posted below it. I haven't watched the whole thing yet, but the sceptical presenter asks probing questions about the historical evidence for the origins of Islam and the prophet Mohammed, and appears from what I've viewed so far to be of the opinion that independent verification for how the religion presents these things is scant, with for instance, nothing appearing in print about Mohammed until 200 years after his death. I heard it on Channel 4, therefore I believe it. Dear friend The Council of Ex-Muslims of Britain would like to make public its support for Tom Holland’s Channel 4 documentary 'Islam: The Untold Story' (http://www.channel4.com/programmes/islam-the-untold-story/4od). We are indignant to learn that due to threats made on Holland, Channel 4 has cancelled a repeat screening of the historical inquiry into the origins of Islam similar to the kind of inquiry that has been applied to other religions and histories in Britain for many years. The threats and concerted attempt to stigmatise the documentary and its producers by attacking its credibility and even legitimacy as a field of inquiry is nothing less than an attempt to impose a blasphemy taboo by stealth and coercion against programming that scrutinises Islam. Caving in to the coercive pressure of Islamists will have catastrophic effects on free inquiry and expression where it pertains to Islam. It would not only further silence academic, historical and theological scrutiny of Islam but would also have the chilling effect of exerting added pressure on Muslims and ex-Muslims who wish to dissent from and question Islam. CEMB spokesperson Maryam Namazie says: “Here’s my question to Channel 4: what about the threats on our lives for being apostates, ex-Muslims, atheists, freethinkers, secularists, 21st century human beings? “What part of our thoughts, lives, and bodies do you recommend we cancel to appease the Islamists? “If only there was such an ‘easy’ ‘solution’ for those who are languishing under Islam’s rules. “You may accept censorship and cowardly silence in the face of Islamist threats and intimidation but we cannot afford to do so. And we never will.” The CEMB urges you to view the documentary (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dm8xKh8eQqU) and write to Channel 4 and Ofcom (contact information below) calling for a repeat screening. We look forward to your support. Islam: The Untold Story : Aug 28, 2012 The sirat Rasual Allah was 125 years after the fact, but the original no longet exists and it's re-write and editing took place 60 years later. 4/5ths of it was ommited because of,"matters that would distress people"
9/16/2012 11:33:05 AM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith
iyamwutiyam Middelfart Denmark 48, joined Dec. 2011	Quote from asanb: I’m rather impressed with the simplicity of direct prayer with no intermediaries. The concept of not needing a clergy appeals to me. That was also one of the early Christian sects, the Gnostics who's theology was direct contact with God, "to know" and this was a very infuriating to the church which wanted all that power for themselves. Gnostics were murdered and Gnosticism was considered a heresy. They gave us some gnostic texts that make Jesus appear to be more of a Buddha, a wise man than a supernatural man-god we find in most old myths. Christians today are a totally different animal that should have gone extinct as a result of that corruption. Little do most know that Islam was actually a peaceful religion and inspired the early Renaissance before there was a Renaissance. Early Christians and Jews would study together with Muslims the mathematics and science. Most of our star system has Arabic names because of their work. Our numeric system is Arabic. So WTF happened? Why did Islam turn into a terrorist religion? Why did a group of people who spearheaded much of the Renaissance turn into a bunch of idiots who don't win any Nobel prize in science? We can't really ask that question about Christianity because they were never known for their intellectual and scientific pursuits. Christians always worshiped ignorance which is why today many are so stupid they actually believe the world is less than 10000 years old and their most famous colleges teach that. According to one Gallup Poll 45% of Americans believe in creationism. They're Christians. Liberty university claims to have 3000 year old dinosaur fossils. Over 150 of those "graduates" worked inside the White House during the Bush Administration. The decline in Islam happened around the year 1100. Lets watch. [Edited 9/16/2012 11:35:19 AM ]
9/16/2012 11:38:21 AM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith
jim_a49 Bellevue, WA 67, joined Dec. 2010	Quote from iyamwutiyam: That was also one of the early Christian sects, the Gnostics who's theology was direct contact with God, "to know" and this was a very infuriating to the church which wanted all that power for themselves. Gnostics were murdered and Gnosticism was considered a heresy. They gave us some gnostic texts that make Jesus appear to be more of a Buddha, a wise man than a supernatural man-god we find in most old myths. Christians today are a totally different animal that should have gone extinct as a result of that corruption. Little do most know that Islam was actually a peaceful religion and inspired the early Renaissance before there was a Renaissance. Early Christians and Jews would study together with Muslims the mathematics and science. Most of our star system has Arabic names because of their work. Our numeric system is Arabic. So WTF happened? Why did Islam turn into a terrorist religion? Why did a group of people who spearheaded much of the Renaissance turn into a bunch of idiots who don't win any Nobel prize in science? We can't really ask that question about Christianity because they were never known for their intellectual and scientific pursuits. Christians always worshiped ignorance which is why today many are so stupid they actually believe the world is less than 10000 years old and their most famous colleges teach that. According to one Gallup Poll 45% of Americans believe in creationism. They're Christians. Liberty university claims to have 3000 year old dinosaur fossils. Over 150 of those "graduates" worked inside the White House during the Bush Administration. The decline in Islam happened around the year 1100. Lets watch. that's incorect. islam was on a rampage since it was created, I am at work now but tonight i can get you a list of the major jihads into Europe fromt the 8th century. Also the islam of today was created in the 9th and 10th century.
9/16/2012 11:41:35 AM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith
iyamwutiyam Middelfart Denmark 48, joined Dec. 2011	(this post has been flagged as inappropriate, sorry.)
9/16/2012 12:08:40 PM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith
asanb Sanbornton, NH 61, joined Jul. 2012	OMG I am going to have to spend the day catching up on videos, Thank you all very much. This PBS series is awesome, if you have an hour to watch. The producers do a great job of bringing the viewer into the desert and setting the stage in context of the times and prevailing culture. Even without the biography, it is a significant immersion into arab history.
9/16/2012 12:10:21 PM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith
iyamwutiyam Middelfart Denmark 48, joined Dec. 2011	that's incorect. islam was on a rampage since it was created, You might be right but I want to get the timing down better and look at what happened at 1100. I'm still investigating but lets consider this. Christianity has a proven terrorist track record of destroying indigenous people in the world, as Nazis and early American settler against the Native Americans, south sea islanders, works of art, works of science, the Library of Alexandra for example and murdering its teachers in the streets. That was around the year 800. So that was about 300 years before Islam made its transition declaring mathematics as the work of the devil. Christianity is most probably be the catalyst shaped Islam into what is its today. The Arabs and Jews got along far better before Christianity. This tells me that Christianity is responsible and poisons everything it touches. When Carl Sagan describes the greatness of Alexandria you can understand the magnitude of destruction to the world done by Christianity and its insane violent Christian maniacs. Christians today are relics and reminders of that time. No matter how destructive Islam is today it pales in comparison to the destruction Christianity has wrought upon the world and will never redeem itself by willingly destroying itself out of existence. [Edited 9/16/2012 12:13:28 PM ]
9/16/2012 12:30:09 PM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith
asanb Sanbornton, NH 61, joined Jul. 2012	Quote from iyamwutiyam: This is an important piece of information that should be shown in every evangelical church in the world. When revalation replaces investigation ignorance abounds. Please don't thow out the baby with the bathwater. At the esoteric core of every religion is the personal investigation of the individual in seeking an experience of unity with the creator. It is not a revalation to be used to supress science or any other outward knowledge. There are christian mystics also. It's the bastardisation of religions as instituions that create these evils, a loss of the core truths.
9/16/2012 12:48:32 PM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith
iyamwutiyam Middelfart Denmark 48, joined Dec. 2011	Quote from asanb: This is an important piece of information that should be shown in every evangelical church in the world. When revalation replaces investigation ignorance abounds. Please don't thow out the baby with the bathwater. At the esoteric core of every religion is the personal investigation of the individual in seeking an experience of unity with the creator. It is not a revalation to be used to supress science or any other outward knowledge. There are christian mystics also. It's the bastardisation of religions as instituions that create these evils, a loss of the core truths. Yes, and a good Christian mystic to study is Thomas Merton, a Trappist Monk and Zen Master who formed Catholic dialogs between east and west. I consider Catholicism as an evil institution that should cease to exist. It murders by the millions yet with its confines are those who are on another path. There still is something wrong with that picture. Would we tolerate a KKK that has made the same attempts to redefine itself? Would we tolerate the Nazi party doing the same because of appealing aspects? So why tolerate Catholicism and Protestant Christianity founded by a maniac like Martin Luther who called for the destruction of the Jews? I can't consider eliminating these destructive forces to be throwing out the baby with the bathwater because the bathwater was filthy to being with. The baby should have never been put in it. What that's saying is these mystics are in the wrong place. As to core truths in Christianity for example, we find Greek philosophy to be a far better source. We can discover some of the core truths in some of Jesus sayings as watered down or as I prefer to say, dumb down versions of what the Socratic dialogs taught. Core truths about finding truth, self examination, justice, good and evil and so on were already addressed by early Greeks.
9/16/2012 12:49:00 PM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith
asanb Sanbornton, NH 61, joined Jul. 2012	@ chris; I ran into the same problem when trying to discuss NA religion with one of my elders. He told me that the best way to learn the culture to get to the underlying religion was to learn to speak Lakota. The way that the verbal expression takes place reveals much of the way the speaker thinks and of the world view that he has. Insight gained from the construction of a word ( like german, strung together words to describe an object or idea) reveals the internal construct of the speaker's mind. No, I have not learned enough lakota, but learning about the construction of islamic poetry is I'm sure a usefull tool in understanding the message.
9/16/2012 1:01:25 PM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith
asanb Sanbornton, NH 61, joined Jul. 2012	@ Iyam: I find it difficult to differentiate between the mystic experiences that Jesus had, and the ones that Moses had, and the ones that Mohammed had, and (name that prophet or saint)etc. Why is it impossible to believe that they all had the same inner experience? And with that question in mind, what makes one better than the other. It is certainly true that some religions have degenerated faster and more profoundly than others. The corrupting influences of the political leadership after the founding figure is the variable. I'm not defending Christianity per se, ignorance ,superstition, and greed cross all religious boundaries.
9/16/2012 1:05:59 PM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith
asanb Sanbornton, NH 61, joined Jul. 2012	Must go to nephews birthday party. b back this eve.
9/16/2012 1:51:56 PM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith
jim_a49 Bellevue, WA 67, joined Dec. 2010	Quote from asanb: @ Iyam: I find it difficult to differentiate between the mystic experiences that Jesus had, and the ones that Moses had, and the ones that Mohammed had, and (name that prophet or saint)etc. Why is it impossible to believe that they all had the same inner experience? And with that question in mind, what makes one better than the other. It is certainly true that some religions have degenerated faster and more profoundly than others. The corrupting influences of the political leadership after the founding figure is the variable. I'm not defending Christianity per se, ignorance ,superstition, and greed cross all religious boundaries. While I am not going to stick up for the credability of moses, or Jesus, there is nothing to indicate Muhammed ever existed. Nobody heard of him during his lifetime, and people who wrote during the times never mentioned him or the Qur'an. The Arabs of that time were christian influenced, and the others were still praying to rocks. There was no Islam until around the Dome of the rock period, (695) when Islam "STARTED", to take on its identity. The arabs still minted coins with a cross on them 50 years later. It was malik, who started the ball rolling.
9/16/2012 2:00:18 PM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith
jim_a49 Bellevue, WA 67, joined Dec. 2010	Quote from iyamwutiyam: You might be right but I want to get the timing down better and look at what happened at 1100. I'm still investigating but lets consider this. Christianity has a proven terrorist track record of destroying indigenous people in the world, as Nazis and early American settler against the Native Americans, south sea islanders, works of art, works of science, the Library of Alexandra for example and murdering its teachers in the streets. That was around the year 800. So that was about 300 years before Islam made its transition declaring mathematics as the work of the devil. Christianity is most probably be the catalyst shaped Islam into what is its today. The Arabs and Jews got along far better before Christianity. This tells me that Christianity is responsible and poisons everything it touches. When Carl Sagan describes the greatness of Alexandria you can understand the magnitude of destruction to the world done by Christianity and its insane violent Christian maniacs. Christians today are relics and reminders of that time. No matter how destructive Islam is today it pales in comparison to the destruction Christianity has wrought upon the world and will never redeem itself by willingly destroying itself out of existence. Once Islam started the Jews were a target. It is writtin in the religion, where God wants them dead, and " Rob them for they must suffer disgrace". The only exceptions where Jews were allowed to live was when they were dhimmies, and protected by the state, In this case they paid a huge tax to be allowed to live. There were also cases in Europe where the Jews and muslims sided against the good christians who were killing them both. Religion is a sick thing, but some are worse than others, and Islam is the sickest of them all.
9/16/2012 2:04:43 PM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith
jim_a49 Bellevue, WA 67, joined Dec. 2010	Quote from asanb: @ chris; I ran into the same problem when trying to discuss NA religion with one of my elders. He told me that the best way to learn the culture to get to the underlying religion was to learn to speak Lakota. The way that the verbal expression takes place reveals much of the way the speaker thinks and of the world view that he has. Insight gained from the construction of a word ( like german, strung together words to describe an object or idea) reveals the internal construct of the speaker's mind. No, I have not learned enough lakota, but learning about the construction of islamic poetry is I'm sure a usefull tool in understanding the message. This is where a serious issue arises. First there are 5 sources for "ALL" of Islam. And these 5 sources together are easy to understand. The sheep get the Qur'an, and it cannot be understood without the sunnah. The sheep are not supposed to read the sunnah. That is for the clerics to explain to them. Now you have a religion where nobody reads the most important part, the sunnah, so you have it going in whatever direction the cleric, and imans, want it to go.
9/16/2012 2:55:48 PM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith
jim_a49 Bellevue, WA 67, joined Dec. 2010	There are excelent examples of the abuse of islam right here on this site. Tayjab and uniquecover are predators, and preaching an entirly different form of Islam than what is writtin in islams only sources. And remember, changing islam is a death sentence, but they are safe in America. Yes, they will cherry pick verses for their needs. I want to emphasize cherry pick, because in 80% of the writings about muhammed he is robbing, rapeing, or killing someone. The ounce of goodness in islam, does not outweigh the mountian of evil, and the goodness only applies to the group you are in. And Tayjab and uniquecover will not face me in a direct question and answer. Remember, I have all the books here at home, and can look up anything. That really crimps their style, so they the only thing a lyin predator could do, they blocked me.
9/16/2012 3:40:55 PM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith
jim_a49 Bellevue, WA 67, joined Dec. 2010	Quote from asanb: The Prophet Muhammad Muslims believe that Islam is a faith that has always existed and that it was gradually revealed to humanity by a number of prophets, but the final and complete revelation of the faith was made through the Prophet Muhammad in the 7th century CE. Muhammad was born in Mecca in Saudi Arabia in 570. He was a deeply spiritual man, and often spent time in meditation on Mount Hira. The traditional story of the Qur'an tells how one night in 610 he was meditating in a cave on the mountain when he was visited by the angel Jibreel who ordered him to recite. Once Jibreel mentioned the name of Allah, Muhammad began to recite words which he came to believe were the words of God. The Qur'an During the rest of his life Muhammad continued to receive these revelations. The words were remembered and recorded, and form the text of the Holy Qu'ran, the Muslim scripture. Preaching Believing that God had chosen him as his messenger Muhammad began to preach what God had revealed to him. The simple and clear-cut message of Islam, that there is no Godbut Allah, and that life should be lived in complete submission to the will of Allah, was attractive to many people, and they flocked to hear it. The Hijrah Muhammad's popularity was seen as threatening by the people in power in Mecca, and Muhammad took his followers on a journey from Mecca to Medina in 622. This journey is called the Hijrah (migration) and the event was seen as so important for Islam that 622 is the year in which theIslamic calendar begins. The return to Mecca Within ten years Muhammad had gained so many followers that he was able to return and conquer Mecca. From this time on he was generally accepted by the faithful as the true final Prophet of God. Muhammad continued to lead his community both spiritually and in earthly matters until his death in 632. This is the story some muslims are told to believe, This is not what actually happened. I can start from the beginning if you want, and i will refference everything i say so you can look it up. And the beginning is about 300 years befor muhammed.
9/16/2012 4:56:59 PM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith
asanb Sanbornton, NH 61, joined Jul. 2012	Sufi Origins Sufism is a Muslim movement whose followers seek to find divine truth and love through direct encounters with God. Sufism arose from within Islam in the 8th-9th centuries C.E. as an ascetic movement. The movement may have been given (or taken on) the name Sufism because of the course wool garments they wore as a mark of their rejection of worldly things; Sufis have traditionally taken vows of poverty and celibacy. Sufism developed religious practices focusing on strict self-control that enable both psychological and mystical insights as well as a loss of self, with the ultimate goal of mystical union with God. The Sufi movement consists of fraternal orders in which leaders train and assist disciples in the mastery of Sufism's philosophical principles and ritual practices. Such rituals and practices include writing and reciting poetry and hymns; some of the most famous and beautiful literature of the Islamic world has been written by Sufis. Sufis engage in a variety of ritual practices intended to help them realize union with God, such as distinct forms of ritual prayer (dhikr, literally "remembrance"), including the recitation of God's names, as well as bodily rituals such as those practices by the so-called "Whirling Dervishes," a Turkish Sufi order that practices meditation and contemplation of God through spinning.
9/16/2012 5:07:19 PM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith
jim_a49 Bellevue, WA 67, joined Dec. 2010	Quote from asanb:[Sufi Origins Sufism is a Muslim movement whose followers seek to find divine truth and love through direct encounters with God. Sufism arose from within Islam in the 8th-9th centuries C.E. as an ascetimovement. The movement may have been given (or taken on) the name Sufism because of the course wool garments they wore as a mark of their rejection of worldly things; Sufis have traditionally taken vows of poverty and celibacy. Sufism developed religious practices focusing on strict self-control that enable both psychological and mystical insights as well as a loss of self, with the ultimate goal of mystical union with God. The Sufi movement consists of fraternal orders in which leaders train and assist disciples in the mastery of Sufism's philosophical principles and ritual practices. Such rituals and practices include writing and reciting poetry and hymns; some of the most famous and beautiful literature of the Islamic world has been written by Sufis. Sufis engage in a variety of ritual practices intended to help them realize union with God, such as distinct forms of ritual prayer (dhikr, literally "remembrance"), including the recitation of God's names, as well as bodily rituals such as those practices by the so-called "Whirling Dervishes," a Turkish Sufi order that practices meditation and contemplation of God through spinning ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo Sufi is probably the most godlike of the islamic variations, combining Islam with buddhism, however, it is also the extreme minority, and they are killed by the others for being "Bad muslims". Also we cannot accuratly date their beginnings. Keep in mind, Islam was 9th century, but I can see them adapting befor the religion was estlablished as law. I am not familiar enough with this particular branch to discuss it properly, but as i said, it is the extreme minority.
9/16/2012 5:14:22 PM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith
asanb Sanbornton, NH 61, joined Jul. 2012	An Excerpt from "The interior life in Islam". Seyyed Hossein Nasr The daily prayers (salat in Arabic, namaz in Persian, Turkish and Urdu) are the most fundamental rites of Islam, preceded by the ablutions and the call to prayers (adhan), both of which contain the profoundest symbolic significance. The form of these prayers is derived directly from the sunnah of the Holy Prophet and the daily prayers are considered as the most important of religious deeds for as the Prophet has said, "The first of his deeds for which a man will be taken into account on the day of resurrection will be his prayer. If it is sound he will be saved and successful, but if it is unsound he will be unfortunate and miserable. If any deficiency is found in his obligatory prayer the Lord who is blessed and exalted will issue instructions to consider whether His servant has said any voluntary prayers so that what is lacking in the obligatory prayer may be made up by it. Then the rest of his actions will be treated in the same fashion." [8] The salat punctuates man's daily existence, determines its rhythm, provides a refuge in the storm of life and protects man from sin. Its performance is obligatory and its imprint upon Islamic society and the soul of the individual Muslim fundamental beyond description. Yet, the meaning of the prayers are not to be understood solely through the study of their external form or their impact upon Islamic society, as fundamental as those may be. By virtue of the degree of man's ihsan, and also by virtue of the grace (barakah) contained within the sacred forms of the prayers, man is able to attain inwardness through the very external forms of the prayers. He is able to return, thanks to the words and movements which are themselves the echoes of the inner states of the Holy Prophet, back to the state of perfect servitude (ubudiyyah) and nearness to the Divine (qurb) which characterize the inner journey of the Holy Prophet as the Universal Man (al-insan al-kamil) to the Divine Presence on that nocturnal ascent (al-miraj), which is at once the inner reality of the prayers and the prototype[9] of spiritual realization in Islam.[10] Not only do the canonical prayers possess an interior dimension, but they also serve as the basis for other forms of prayer which become ever more inward as man progresses upon the spiritual path leading finally to the "prayer of the heart", the invocation (dhikr) in which the invoker, invocation and the invoked become united, and through which man returns to the Center, to the Origin which is pure Inwardness.[11] The interior life of Islam is based most of all upon the power of prayer and the grace issuing from the sacred language of Arabic in which various prayers are performed. Prayer itself is the holy barque which leads man from the world of outwardness and separation to that of union and interiority, becoming ultimately unified with the center of the heart and the rhythm which determines human life itself.
9/16/2012 5:17:49 PM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith
jim_a49 Bellevue, WA 67, joined Dec. 2010	The daily prayers are a fundumental part of brainwashing, used in all religions, and in islam it is 5 times a day.
9/16/2012 5:35:00 PM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith
asanb Sanbornton, NH 61, joined Jul. 2012	@ jim "I want to emphasize cherry pick, because in 80% of the writings about muhammed he is robbing, rapeing, or killing someone. The ounce of goodness in islam, does not outweigh the mountian of evil, and the goodness only applies to the group you are in. " You keep saying things like this in all your posts, and subsantiating none of it. There is a mountain of christian extremist "attack the Koran" sites out there that I'm sure you can quote. The matterial that I am finding out there originating from responsible academics, historians, comparitive religion sites, PBS, universities and others who do not have some hateful ax to grind all tell a different story. I'm intrigued with the simplicity and directness of a religion that expects that it's followers actualy spend time in prayer cultivating a personal connection with god. Why should I believe anything you say when there is a mountain of information that says that your statements are baseless and that you are simply peddling thinly disguised bigotry? What's your beef with muslims? Other than a patriotic concern that you feel threatened by them etc. Do you have personal experiences that motivate you to spread this crap?
9/16/2012 5:51:35 PM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith
jim_a49 Bellevue, WA 67, joined Dec. 2010	Quote from asanb: @ jim "I want to emphasize cherry pick, because in 80% of the writings about muhammed he is robbing, rapeing, or killing someone. The ounce of goodness in islam, does not outweigh the mountian of evil, and the goodness only applies to the group you are in. " You keep saying things like this in all your posts, and subsantiating none of it. There is a mountain of christian extremist "attack the Koran" sites out there that I'm sure you can quote. The matterial that I am finding out there originating from responsible academics, historians, comparitive religion sites, PBS, universities and others who do not have some hateful ax to grind all tell a different story. I'm intrigued with the simplicity and directness of a religion that expects that it's followers actualy spend time in prayer cultivating a personal connection with god. Why should I believe anything you say when there is a mountain of information that says that your statements are baseless and that you are simply peddling thinly disguised bigotry? What's your beef with muslims? Other than a patriotic concern that you feel threatened by them etc. Do you have personal experiences that motivate you to spread this crap? ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo I don't expect you to believe anything i say, but i always provide proof for anything I say. If there is anything I have ever said about Islam that you do not agree with, and i assume there is a lot, just stop me and ask for a refference. I will provide it from the Qur'an or,sunnah, the only source. and don't worry, if you actually took the time to learn about islam, you would not call it crap, in fact you would be right with me exposing it. Your arguement has no validity, I offer to prove anything I say,
9/16/2012 6:20:36 PM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith
asanb Sanbornton, NH 61, joined Jul. 2012	OK jim, go ahead prove to me that Mohammed was a robber, a rapist and a murderer. I'd like to see something other than "because I said so, and I have proof" And tell me also please, after you have given me these facts and proven them, why the world seems to be ignoring these gems of improtant truth?
9/16/2012 6:58:46 PM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith
jim_a49 Bellevue, WA 67, joined Dec. 2010	Quote from asanb: OK jim, go ahead prove to me that Mohammed was a robber, a rapist and a murderer. I'd like to see something other than "because I said so, and I have proof" And tell me also please, after you have given me these facts and proven them, why the world seems to be ignoring these gems of improtant truth? 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 since there is so much in those catagorys, I am just going to stick with one of them. I could post hundreds of verses on those three topics. Bukhari:V4B52N "Allah's Messenger said, 'Who is ready to kill Ashraf? He has said injurious things about Allah and His Apostle.' Maslama got up saying, 'Would you like me to kill him?' The Prophet proclaimed, 'Yes.' Maslama said, 'Then allow me to lie so that I will be able to deceive him.' Muhammad said, 'You may do so.'" Ishaq:368 "Ka'b's body was left prostrate [humbled in submission]. After his fall, all of the Nadir Jews were brought low. Sword in hand we cut him down. By Muhammad's order we were sent secretly by night. Brother killing brother. We lured him to his death with guile [cunning or deviousness]. Traveling by night, bold as lions, we went into his home. We made him taste death with our deadly swords. We sought victory for the religion of the Prophet." Bukhari:V1B1N6 "Just issue orders to kill every Jew in the country." Tabari VII:97 "The morning after the murder of Ashraf, the Prophet declared, 'Kill any Jew who falls under your power.'" Ishaq: 676 "'You obey a stranger who encourages you to murder for booty. You are greedy men. Is there no honor among you?' Upon hearing those lines Muhammad said, 'Will no one rid me of this woman?' Umayr, a zealous Muslim, decided to execute the Prophet's wishes. That very night he crept into the writer's home while she lay sleeping surrounded by her young children. There was one at her breast. Umayr removed the suckling babe and then plunged his sword into the poet. The next morning in the mosque, Muhammad, who was aware of the assassination, said, 'You have helped Allah and His Apostle.' Umayr said. 'She had five sons; should I feel guilty?' 'No,' the Prophet answered. 'Killing her was as meaningless as two goats butting heads.'" Tabari VIII:179 Ishaq:550 "Among those who Muhammad ordered killed was Abdallah bin Khatal. The Messenger ordered him to be slain because while he was a Muslim, Muhammad had sent him to collect the zakat tax with an Ansar and a slave of his.... His girls used to sing a satire about Muhammad so the Prophet ordered that they should be killed along with Abdullah. He was killed by Sa'id and Abu Barzah. The two shared in his blood. One of the singing girls was killed quickly but the other fled. So Umar caused his horse to trample the one who fled, killing her." Tabari VIII:181 "The Messenger ordered six men and four women to be assassinated. One of these women was Hind, who swore allegiance and became a Muslim. " Tabari VII:101 "The Khazraj asked the Prophet for permission to kill Sallam Huqayq, who was in Khaybar. He granted this." Tabari VIII:40 "The Messenger commanded that furrows should be dug in the ground for the Qurayza. Then he sat down. Ali and Zubayr began cutting off their heads in his presence." Tabari VIII:38 "The Messenger of Allah commanded that all of the Jewish men and boys who had reached puberty should be beheaded. Then the Prophet divided the wealth, wives, and children of the Banu Qurayza Jews among the Muslims." I can do this for days, people don't realize what Islam is all about, and just who muhammed really was, and though this worked for 1200 years, Islam is desperatly trying to hide it now. But they can't, all of their books have been translated into a dozen languages, all you have to do is read them.
9/16/2012 7:00:45 PM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith
jim_a49 Bellevue, WA 67, joined Dec. 2010	One of the things you have to realize is that these are random verses, you really need to read the entire story, the planing and execution of these events. These ware well thought out, and even the method of splitting the booty is explained.
9/16/2012 7:22:49 PM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith
jim_a49 Bellevue, WA 67, joined Dec. 2010	[Quote from asanb: OK jim, go ahead prove to me that Mohammed was a robber, a rapist and a murderer. I'd like to see something other than "because I said so, and I have proof" And tell me also please, after you have given me these facts and proven them, why the world seems to be ignoring these gems of improtant truth? 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 And i want to point out that I am furious with the fact that our government is not exposing islam for what it really is. sombody is getting paid. It is private enterprize, from all directions that are doing it, and screaming loudly on deaf ears. There are lots of anti islam sites on the web, and though lots of them are sponcered by religious groups, i caution you to really check them out befor you blindly believe what they say. Many have their own ulterior motives, but the problem is that you cannot change the 1200 year old writings of the religion. When Bukhari says, "just issue orders to kill every jew in the country," You get these lame a** people who will say, oh that came from an anti-islam site. So what, if it came from a jewish site, a christian site or an athiest site, it does not change 1200 year old scripture, that is still followed today.
9/16/2012 9:27:01 PM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith
asanb Sanbornton, NH 61, joined Jul. 2012	I'm trying to verify the quotations that you posted, and getting nowhere with it. I am now in possesion of a copy of Tabri's "comentary on the Koran". I assume that you are quoting Tabiri's "History of the Prophets and Kings " Vol VII- The foundation of the community. Where did you get a copy of the book, or how did you find one to download; they are not available for download. I am also unable to check the notations for "Bukhari" It's on line, but your notations for volume or verse or book do not correspond with the 4 volume index. Please clarify. I cannot find useable reference for Ishaq. It's on the hate pages, but I have not found any original translation. I suspect that you may be using unreliable source material for your quotes. Please provide some Provenance as to the fact that these are real quotes.
9/16/2012 9:39:00 PM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith
jim_a49 Bellevue, WA 67, joined Dec. 2010	Quote from asanb: I'm trying to verify the quotations that you posted, and getting nowhere with it. I am now in possesion of a copy of Tabri's "comentary on the Koran". I assume that you are quoting Tabiri's "History of the Prophets and Kings " Vol VII- The foundation of the community. Where did you get a copy of the book, or how did you find one to download; they are not available for download. I am also unable to check the notations for "Bukhari" It's on line, but your notations for volume or verse or book do not correspond with the 4 volume index. Please clarify. I cannot find useable reference for Ishaq. It's on the hate pages, but I have not found any original translation. I suspect that you may be using unreliable source material for your quotes. Please provide some Provenance as to the fact that these are reuotes ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo No, Taburi is , the history of al-taburi, islams oldest uncencored source writtin about 820 Taburi is hard to find, you can buy it for about a thousand dollars. I got mine at a used book store I worked at about 20 years ago. Islam will not translate this one online for fear of people reading it. Bukhari and muslim are online from Islamic sites. Ishaq is also on line I caution you about the Michan Khan translation of Bukhari, though it is accurate, it is also condenced and the numbering system is different. I'll try to find ishaq now, and BTW 80% of the book is pure evil, it will be on lots of hate pages, and none by Islam. This is another they do not want you to see.
9/16/2012 9:40:43 PM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith
jim_a49 Bellevue, WA 67, joined Dec. 2010	http://archive.org/details/IbnIshaq-SiratRasulAllah-translatorA.Guillaume
9/16/2012 9:42:08 PM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith
jim_a49 Bellevue, WA 67, joined Dec. 2010	And BTW The very first thing I say when people b*tch about the translation, is, Let me see yours and we can compare them.
9/16/2012 10:36:54 PM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith
asanb Sanbornton, NH 61, joined Jul. 2012	I have Bukhari online. Please clarify reference index. I can't make sense of the volume/book/ verse notation.
9/16/2012 11:02:19 PM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith
asanb Sanbornton, NH 61, joined Jul. 2012	I have read Ishaq: 368 from the referenced text. It does not match your quote at all and is not even about the same subject. I have little reason to believe that your quotes are based on anything real.
9/17/2012 12:33:08 AM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith
jim_a49 Bellevue, WA 67, joined Dec. 2010	Quote from asanb: I have read Ishaq: 368 from the referenced text. It does not match your quote at all and is not even about the same subject. I have little reason to believe that your quotes are based on anything real. This is Ishaq 368 What do you have that is different. Ishaq:368 "Ka'b's body was left prostrate [humbled in submission]. After his fall, all of the Nadir Jews were brought low. Sword in hand we cut him down. By Muhammad's order we were sent secretly by night. Brother killing brother. We lured him to his death with guile [cunning or deviousness]. Traveling by night, bold as lions, we went into his home. We made him taste death with our deadly swords. We sought victory for the religion of the Prophet."
9/17/2012 12:39:41 AM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith
jim_a49 Bellevue, WA 67, joined Dec. 2010	Quote from asanb: I have Bukhari online. Please clarify reference index. I can't make sense of the volume/book/ verse notation. As I said there are differences in the numbering systems. If you just type in verse number you will find it. If you are having trouble finding one give me the verse number and I wil locate it for you. and personally, I really don't care what you believe, you are in denial, about what a religion can be. I was too when i first started to get into Islam,. This cannot possably a religion, I thought, It cannot be serious. Well it is serious as a heart attack, and twice as deadly. And as I said, personally i don't care if the people at the site you get it from eat little muslim babies for breakfest. If it can be verified, it is real. And there is a pattern here, it is not just isolated verses.
9/17/2012 2:04:18 AM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith
jim_a49 Bellevue, WA 67, joined Dec. 2010	As an example one of my favorite verses. Bukhari:V1B1N6 Just issue orders to kill every jew in the country go to,http://www.sacred-texts.com/isl/bukhari/bh1/index.htm look in the index this is volume one, book one. look for number 6 You will get this page with the entire text. http://www.sacred-texts.com/isl/bukhari/bh1/bh1_05.htm and btw, this is a muslim site.
9/17/2012 2:49:27 AM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith
jim_a49 Bellevue, WA 67, joined Dec. 2010	and we have another monkey wrench here, You have a word for word narative, that took place 250 years befor it was writtin down. There are literaly tens of thousands of these. The reason, or excuse, is that they were handed down from person to person. They also have insnads, which are paper trails to the originals, yes even to Abraham. The jews can't even verify Abraham, but the muslims can. The reason is obvious, they are phoney, and all of these paper trails do not have the original documents, but rather, just the last one, writtin in the 9th and 10th century. But the problem is that nobody ever even heard of Muhammed for the 1st hundred years of supposed Islam. there is nothing in writing from this peroid, though the jews and christians still have original documents from a thousand years prior. The first writtin event, in recorded history, mentioning muhammed and the Qur'an, is 60 years late, and it is by a christian preacher. Muhammed was also a word used as "praised one", for other christian charactors. mary, jesus, etc. it was the building of the dome of the rock, that started the ball rolling, and then all of these fabrications came forward. But it is these fabrications, the religion is writtin about, and the reason they went on a rampage for over 1200 years.
9/17/2012 4:10:55 AM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith
jim_a49 Bellevue, WA 67, joined Dec. 2010	I also want to point out that in your title, the origins of the faith, there is only what is reported by islam to go by, that, and historical evidence, which sharply contradicts the islamic version. The reality is that they cannot pinpoint the origins at all. Keep in mind the jews were the literate ones around there at this time. After 78 documented raids on jewish settlements, they had lots of paper to write on, but for some mysterious reason never wrote anything down. Islam as we know it today is 9th century, and everything befor that is pure fabrication.
9/17/2012 4:46:10 AM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith
asanb Sanbornton, NH 61, joined Jul. 2012	Quote from jim_a49: As an example one of my favorite verses. Bukhari:V1B1N6 Just issue orders to kill every jew in the country go to,http://www.sacred-texts.com/isl/bukhari/bh1/index.htm look in the index this is volume one, book one. look for number 6 Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Abbas "Abu Sufyan then added, "When Heraclius had finished his speech and had read the letter, there was a great hue and cry in the Royal Court. So we were turned out of the court. I told my companions that the question of Ibn-Abi-Kabsha) (the Prophet Muhammad) has become so prominent that even the King of Bani Al-Asfar (Byzantine) is afraid of him. Then I started to become sure that he (the Prophet) would be the conqueror in the near future till I embraced Islam (i.e. Allah guided me to it)." The sub narrator adds, "Ibn An-Natur was the Governor of llya' (Jerusalem) and Heraclius was the head of the Christians of Sham. Ibn An-Natur narrates that once while Heraclius was visiting ilya' (Jerusalem), he got up in the morning with a sad mood. Some of his priests asked him why he was in that mood? Heraclius was a foreteller and an astrologer. He replied, 'At night when I looked at the stars, I saw that the leader of those who practice circumcision had appeared (become the conqueror). Who are they who practice circumcision?' The people replied, 'Except the Jews nobody practices circumcision, so you should not be afraid of them (Jews). 'Just Issue orders to kill every Jew present in the country.' While they were discussing it, a messenger sent by the king of Ghassan to convey the news of Allah's Apostle to Heraclius was brought in. Having heard the news, he (Heraclius) ordered the people to go and see whether the messenger of Ghassan was circumcised. The people, after seeing him, told Heraclius that he was circumcised. Heraclius then asked him about the Arabs. The messenger replied, 'Arabs also practice circumcision.' " OK, So someone named Heraclius makes a statement: just kill all the jews- On this page These are words appearently narated by a Subnarator of someone named abu sufyan, another subnarrator (?), and it is not Mohammed speaking. Kinda thin, doncha think? Not possible that there was an error in putting this through three seperate oral recitations before it was put to print as arabic poetry, then translated? Acording to the site, there are 600 Haidith's and this is the one by Bukhari and one verse out of 3209 says something anti semetic The site provides no provenance of the authenticity of this document. This is not an islamic site, according to the home page "about"
9/17/2012 4:53:12 AM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith
asanb Sanbornton, NH 61, joined Jul. 2012	From A manual of Hadith, by Maulana Muhammad Ali, M.A., LL.B. Lahore [1944] CHAPTER XXX ETHICS (Adab) 1. "The noblest of you in the sight of Allah is the best of you in conduct" (49:13). 2. "And do good to your parents. If either of them or both of them reach old age with thee, say not to them, fie: nor chide them: and speak to them a generous word. And make thyself submissively gentle to them with compassion, and say, My Lord! Have mercy on them as they brought me up when I was little" (17:23, 24). 3. "And do not kill your children for fear of poverty . We give them sustenance and yourselves too" (17:31). 4 "And when about the one buried alive it is asked, For what sin was she killed?" (81:8, 9). 5. "Righteousness is this that one should believe in Allah . . . . and give away wealth out of love for Him to the near of kin and the orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and the beggars and for the emancipation of the captives" (2:17). 6. "And they (the women) have rights similar to those (men have) over them in a just manner" (2:228). 7. "And keep them (your wives) in good fellowship" (2:229, 231). 8. "The believers are but brethren, so make peace between your brethren" (49:10). 9. "Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah: and those with him are firm of heart against the disbelievers, merciful among themselves" (48:29). 10. "And the men who speak the truth and the women who speak the truth . . . Allah has prepared for them forgiveness and a great reward" (33:35). 11. "Woe to every slanderer, defamer" (104:1). p. 372 12. "Let not a people deride another people nor let women deride women . . . . . Neither defame one another, nor call one another by nicknames . . . . Shun much suspicion. And spy not, nor backbite one another" (49:11, 12). 13. "And fulfil promise, for the promise shall be questioned about" (17: 34). 14. "And give full measure when you measure out, and weigh with a true balance" (17: 35). 15. "And do not kill any one whom Allah has forbidden except for a just cause" (17: 33). 16. "And those who shun the great sins and indecencies, and whenever they are angry they forgive" (42:37). 17. "And the recompense of evil is punishment like it; but whoever forgives and amends, he shall have his reward from Allah" (42:40). 18. "And the servants of the Beneficent are they who walk on earth in humbleness; and when the ignorant address them they say, Peace" (25:63). 19. "And go not nigh to fornication, for it is an indecency and evil is the way" (17:32). 20. "Say to the believing men that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts." "Say to the believing women that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts, and not display their beauty except what appears thereof; and let them draw their head-coverings over their bosoms" (24:30, 31). 21. "And as for women advanced in years who do not hope for a marriage, it is no sin for them if they put off their cloaks, not displaying their beauty" (24:60). 22. "Do not enter houses other than your own houses without permission and saluting their inmates and if it is said to you, Go back. then go back" (24:27, 28).
9/17/2012 5:08:38 AM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith
asanb Sanbornton, NH 61, joined Jul. 2012	@jim Let me see if I have this right: On the one hand you argue that mohammed may have never existed, he is a fabrication, and on the other he is a person bereft of morals. On the one hand these texts you quote were written down 250 years after the fact, and you question their validity, on the other you quote them as evidence to your claims. I'm getting a pretty schiziod picture about what you believe is true, and what proof there is for your arguments. I believe that you have made up your mind to hate Islam, and you will find reason for it regardless of reason.
9/17/2012 5:25:17 AM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith
jim_a49 Bellevue, WA 67, joined Dec. 2010	Quote from asanb: @jim Let me see if I have this right: On the one hand you argue that mohammed may have never existed, he is a fabrication, and on the other he is a person bereft of morals. On the one hand these texts you quote were written down 250 years after the fact, and you question their validity, on the other you quote them as evidence to your claims. I'm getting a pretty schiziod picture about what you believe is true, and what proof there is for your arguments. I believe that you have made up your mind to hate Islam, and you will find reason for it regardless of reason. It is not a question of what I believe or do not believe, i try to stick with facts. There is not one single thing in all of recorded history that verifies muhammeds existence, on the contrary there is more evidence that says he did not exist. But his actual existence is not the issue, it is the story about him that was created. Most scholars agree that he was a composite charactor, and it is these stories that the religion is writtin around, these same stories that they do not want you to read, these same stories that worked fine for 1200 years, but now in the 21st century they are trying to hide from the western public, so they are inventing a whole new charactor. The problem here is that the muslims of the middle east are not going to accept a new charactor, they have the original, but the americans, unless they read the original writings, have no idea what he did at all.
9/17/2012 5:33:22 AM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith
jim_a49 Bellevue, WA 67, joined Dec. 2010	It is more than likly someone did exist to fuel these stories, but who that was, is lost to history. a major influence was Malic, the 4th calief, i believe, who started the Muhammed thing, but he also put himself on the same level, and his thoughts are rejected by most islamic scholars, also Ishaq, was leaning toward Shia type works, and is consequently rejected by sunni. Unfortunatly for that logic however, it was the shittes had possession of muhammeds family, wives,etc and the ancestors, so logic would say they have a more accurate history. But here again, Islam has a habit of destroying previous history, to enter their own, and it has changed hands so many times, nothing exists of the original, if in fact there ever was an original.
9/17/2012 5:38:17 AM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith
jim_a49 Bellevue, WA 67, joined Dec. 2010	Keep in mind, Muhammed is not in the Qur'an. The most important person in all of islam, is not in their holy book, and is only in the sunnah. He is mentioned 4 times I believe in the Qur'an and at least 3 of those times, they could be reffering to someone else. and there is nothing in there to record his life. You have in the messenger a beautiful pattern of conduct to follow. ( Qur'an) A detailed history of him is in the sunnah, and that is the only one, the only place in all of recorded history, that he exists.
9/17/2012 5:44:28 AM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith
jim_a49 Bellevue, WA 67, joined Dec. 2010	quote from assad Not possible that there was an error in putting this through three seperate oral recitations before it was put to print as arabic poetry, then translated? Acording to the site, there are 600 Haidith's and this is the one by Bukhari and one verse out of 3209 says something anti semetic The site provides no provenance of the authenticity of this document. This is not an islamic site, according to the home page "about" oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo Not possable there was error. Yes, there could have been oan error in any of the verses, but collectivly, thousands of verses, they all say the same storyline. Islam is basically rob, rape, and kill, all who are not members of your group, and give 20% of the booty collected to the leaders. amd LOL no, this is not the only anti-sematic verse, there are hundreds, nay thousands, in all of the writings.
9/17/2012 5:53:44 AM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith
jim_a49 Bellevue, WA 67, joined Dec. 2010	Something else you will notice here that confirms what i am saying, is the absence of our resident predator islamic scholars, Tayjab and uniquecover. They are dying for me to make a mistake, just so they can pounce on it, See, jim made a mistake, that means everything he said was wrong. Unfortunatly they havn't found one yet, and I am very carefull not to make one.
9/17/2012 6:26:27 AM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith
jim_a49 Bellevue, WA 67, joined Dec. 2010	And I want to point out This particular verse, 'just issue orders to kill every jew in the country', was made right after Muhammeds death, carrying out his wishes. This comes from the Medina area. This one, made shortly befor, is attrubuted to muhammed. Tabari VII:97 "The morning after the murder of Ashraf, the Prophet declared, 'Kill any Jew who falls under your power.'"
9/17/2012 7:24:25 AM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith
iyamwutiyam Middelfart Denmark 48, joined Dec. 2011	I'm trying to get a handle on this. From 800-1100 Islam in Baghdad was the intellectual center of the world where everyone was allowed including Christians, Jews and non-believers to study. Just that 300 year period and then Islam went to become the shit religion it is today. It seems the shift occurred when Hamed l-Ghazali began condemning mathematics and philosophy. Sounds a lot like Christians condemning science in the 20th century. Was that the only major philosophical shift in thinking that created a fatalistic view of the world? Islam today is a parasite religion that takes and doesn't contribute anything good. The only way it could survive was to plunder and pillage which is how Christianity survived. Did Christianity set an example for Islam? A point of infection. Christianity never had a period of intellectual growth that was central to its dogma but Islam did for a very short time. So if we do a post mortem on Islam can we find Christianity infecting the core of Islam? Maybe maybe not but Christianity never had an enlightenment period but Islam did and it would be good to understand what exactly happened. Both sick religions have much in common. They are both religions that doom humanity to servitude, ignorance and violence. They both worship the god of death by different names. They both get inspiration from psychosis and other aberrations of the brain i.e. mental illness. They both get inspired by a murderous father Abraham. They are sexually dysfunctional and misogynistic. The list goes on. There is nothing good with either faith but Islam did have a period of brightness and that is a very odd phenomenon I'd like to know more about. [Edited 9/17/2012 7:24:49 AM ]
9/17/2012 7:25:24 AM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith
chrisbrz Wilmette, IL 42, joined May. 2011	. Quote from jim_a49: Quote from asanb:[Sufi Origins Sufism is a Muslim movement whose followers seek to find divine truth and love through direct encounters with God. Sufism arose from within Islam in the 8th-9th centuries C.E. as an ascetimovement. The movement may have been given (or taken on) the name Sufism because of the course wool garments they wore as a mark of their rejection of worldly things; Sufis have traditionally taken vows of poverty and celibacy. Sufism developed religious practices focusing on strict self-control that enable both psychological and mystical insights as well as a loss of self, with the ultimate goal of mystical union with God. The Sufi movement consists of fraternal orders in which leaders train and assist disciples in the mastery of Sufism's philosophical principles and ritual practices. Such rituals and practices include writing and reciting poetry and hymns; some of the most famous and beautiful literature of the Islamic world has been written by Sufis. Sufis engage in a variety of ritual practices intended to help them realize union with God, such as distinct forms of ritual prayer (dhikr, literally "remembrance"), including the recitation of God's names, as well as bodily rituals such as those practices by the so-called "Whirling Dervishes," a Turkish Sufi order that practices meditation and contemplation of God through spinning ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo Jims Response Sufi is probably the most godlike of the islamic variations, combining Islam with buddhism, however, it is also the extreme minority, and they are killed by the others for being "Bad muslims". Also we cannot accuratly date their beginnings. Keep in mind, Islam was 9th century, but I can see them adapting befor the religion was estlablished as law. I am not familiar enough with this particular branch to discuss it properly, but as i said, it is the extreme minority. You seem to be wildly underestimating the size of and scope of Sufism. Husain Haqqani (the Pakistani Ambassador to the United States), put it at roughly half of all Muslims. Or "slightly more" than the "extreme minority" as refer to them. Notice this article from US News & World Report "Paying Attention to the other Islam" Of the 1.2 billion Muslims today, how many are Sufis? Click that scroll and you can see in the article about 5-6 paragraphs down, that question in bold. Somebody is wildly off...... Jim.......or the Pakistani Ambassador to America....... .......hmmmmm.
9/17/2012 9:53:26 AM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith
jim_a49 Bellevue, WA 67, joined Dec. 2010	Quote from chrisbrz: . Quote from jim_a49: Quote from asanb:[Sufi Origins Sufism is a Muslim movement whose followers seek to find divine truth and love through direct encounters with God. Sufism arose from within Islam in the 8th-9th centuries C.E. as an ascetimovement. The movement may have been given (or taken on) the name Sufism because of the course wool garments they wore as a mark of their rejection of worldly things; Sufis have traditionally taken vows of poverty and celibacy. Sufism developed religious practices focusing on strict self-control that enable both psychological and mystical insights as well as a loss of self, with the ultimate goal of mystical union with God. The Sufi movement consists of fraternal orders in which leaders train and assist disciples in the mastery of Sufism's philosophical principles and ritual practices. Such rituals and practices include writing and reciting poetry and hymns; some of the most famous and beautiful literature of the Islamic world has been written by Sufis. Sufis engage in a variety of ritual practices intended to help them realize union with God, such as distinct forms of ritual prayer (dhikr, literally "remembrance"), including the recitation of God's names, as well as bodily rituals such as those practices by the so-called "Whirling Dervishes," a Turkish Sufi order that practices meditation and contemplation of God through spinning ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo Jims Response Sufi is probably the most godlike of the islamic variations, combining Islam with buddhism, however, it is also the extreme minority, and they are killed by the others for being "Bad muslims". Also we cannot accuratly date their beginnings. Keep in mind, Islam was 9th century, but I can see them adapting befor the religion was estlablished as law. I am not familiar enough with this particular branch to discuss it properly, but as i said, it is the extreme minority. You seem to be wildly underestimating the size of and scope of Sufism. Husain Haqqani (the Pakistani Ambassador to the United States), put it at roughly half of all Muslims. Or "slightly more" than the "extreme minority" as refer to them. Notice this article from US News & World Report "Paying Attention to the other Islam" Of the 1.2 billion Muslims today, how many are Sufis? Click that scroll and you can see in the article about 5-6 paragraphs down, that question in bold. Somebody is wildly off...... Jim.......or the Pakistani Ambassador to America....... .......hmmmmm. it's my understanding thet Suffi are about 5%, that is an extreme minority, I will check on that for an exact figure.
9/17/2012 9:56:37 AM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith
jim_a49 Bellevue, WA 67, joined Dec. 2010	Husain Haqqani (the Pakistani Ambassador to the United States), put it at roughly half of all Muslims. Right out of the gate, that is phoney. 70% are Sunni, then Shia is next largest, and then i believe whabbie, and Kurdish. There are many diffrent small branches and suffi is one of them.
9/17/2012 10:01:46 AM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith
jim_a49 Bellevue, WA 67, joined Dec. 2010	Stephen Schwartz Executive Director, Center for Islamic Pluralism Essential principles shared by most Muslim Sufis include emphasis on commonalities with other faiths and traditions, which has contributed to improved relations between Muslims and Jews, Christians, Buddhists and other non-Islamic believers. Commentators concerned to denigrate Islam altogether have asserted that Sufis, even if they embody moderation and mutual respect among people of religion, comprise no more than 5 percent of the world's Muslims. Since the importance of Sufism stands, in the minds of many Westerners, on demographic measurement, let us therefore ask: How many Sufis are found in the Muslim world?
9/17/2012 10:12:22 AM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith
iyamwutiyam Middelfart Denmark 48, joined Dec. 2011	A major shift in thinking for Islam was caused by Al-Ghazali who condemned mathematics and philosophy and scientific inquiry. The problem is causation. Cause and effect. Lets listen to this explanation. This may be evidence that Al-Ghazali was mentally ill driving his religious superstitions from likely damage to his hippopotamus. To make such a severe causal error that fire does not cause the cotton to burn but is the will of Allah. This reeks of mental illness as does nonsense told to us by Christians Lets show why brain damage and mental illness is not only an influence of Islamic thinking but on Christian thinking that so obviously embraces mental illness as its key source of revealed knowledge which more accurately should be called revealed delusions. This is an excerpt, just 2 1/2 minutes where Dr Saposky explains how hippocampus damage plays a role in OCD and cause and effect issues. Muslims obsessively and compulsively pray 5x day facing Mecca. That is OCD. Religious delusions have many sources and damage to the brain may be its key source found in leaders who propound religious cause and effect nonsense.
9/17/2012 10:16:06 AM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith
hellifino51 Mansfield, AR 66, joined Dec. 2011	hippopotamus? damaged river horse?
9/17/2012 10:21:45 AM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith
jim_a49 Bellevue, WA 67, joined Dec. 2010	Quote from iyamwutiyam: I'm trying to get a handle on this. From 800-1100 Islam in Baghdad was the intellectual center of the world where everyone was allowed including Christians, Jews and non-believers to study. Just that 300 year period and then Islam went to become the shit religion it is today. It seems the shift occurred when Hamed l-Ghazali began condemning mathematics and philosophy. Sounds a lot like Christians condemning science in the 20th century. Was that the only major philosophical shift in thinking that created a fatalistic view of the world? Islam today is a parasite religion that takes and doesn't contribute anything good. The only way it could survive was to plunder and pillage which is how Christianity survived. Did Christianity set an example for Islam? A point of infection. Christianity never had a period of intellectual growth that was central to its dogma but Islam did for a very short time. So if we do a post mortem on Islam can we find Christianity infecting the core of Islam? Maybe maybe not but Christianity never had an enlightenment period but Islam did and it would be good to understand what exactly happened. Both sick religions have much in common. They are both religions that doom humanity to servitude, ignorance and violence. They both worship the god of death by different names. They both get inspiration from psychosis and other aberrations of the brain i.e. mental illness. They both get inspired by a murderous father Abraham. They are sexually dysfunctional and misogynistic. The list goes on. There is nothing good with either faith but Islam did have a period of brightness and that is a very odd phenomenon I'd like to know more about. I am curious where you got that info, any non muslim on muslim land is a dhimmi and has to pay a huge tax to be allowed to live, and a jew in bagdad, seems you would have a better chance of finding an ice cube in hell. But we have to realize islam is 9th century so anything prior is not muslims. alsy you might want to question your source, just up untill a few years ago they preached that mecca was a great trading center for muslims since the beginning, but they don't even bother saying that anymore.
9/17/2012 10:23:51 AM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith
xashax Union, NH 45, joined May. 2009	Quote from clarencec: Shurely shome mishtake? I wish I could locate the mishtake mushrooms around here. I guess it's too Asian for such provincial folk.
9/17/2012 10:30:00 AM	Islamic Education: Origins of the faith
iyamwutiyam Middelfart Denmark 48, joined Dec. 2011	Quote from clarencec: Shurely shome mishtake? And the hippos have such huge asses too.

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