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4/30/2016 11:45:24 PM The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!  

tnteacher101
Over 4,000 Posts! (4,039)
Morristown, TN
66, joined Aug. 2010


Quote from ludlowlowell:
Millions of Christians since the first century a.d. have read and studied the Bible, and very, very few have come up with the set of interpretations you have. A few have interpreted it to mean the Levitical law still stands, but you're the only Christian, ancient, medieval, or modern, that rejects Paul, that I ever heard of.


Low: I am more than sure lot of people have determined that the lawless Paul was a murderer, tare and false apostle. In the not so distant past the Catholic Church would have burned at the stake, boiled in oil or stoned to death anyone that said Paul was an antichrist. As time goes by I think lots of people and maybe the majority of people will view Paul the way I do.

Steve

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5/1/2016 12:29:03 AM The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!  

ludlowlowell
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Panama City, FL
63, joined Feb. 2008


The vast majority of Christians love St. Paul and will never go back to observing the Levitical law.

5/1/2016 12:54:17 AM The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!  

tnteacher101
Over 4,000 Posts! (4,039)
Morristown, TN
66, joined Aug. 2010


Quote from ludlowlowell:
The vast majority of Christians love St. Paul and will never go back to observing the Levitical law.


Low: Yes, I am well aware of that and those people may very well end up in hades.

Steve

5/1/2016 5:11:03 AM The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!  

ludlowlowell
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (27,800)
Panama City, FL
63, joined Feb. 2008


God will not send someone to Hades for eating pork anymore---Peter's angel made that abundantly clear. God will send people to Hades for not eating His Body and drinking His Blood.

5/1/2016 8:36:49 AM The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!  

tnteacher101
Over 4,000 Posts! (4,039)
Morristown, TN
66, joined Aug. 2010


Quote from ludlowlowell:
God will not send someone to Hades for eating pork anymore---Peter's angel made that abundantly clear. God will send people to Hades for not eating His Body and drinking His Blood.


Low: Apparently you did not read this verse:

King James Version Isaiah 66:17
They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.

Steve

5/1/2016 9:28:06 AM The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!  

kb2222
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (11,098)
Jacksonville, FL
75, joined Apr. 2011


Quote from ludlowlowell:
God will not send someone to Hades for eating pork anymore---Peter's angel made that abundantly clear. God will send people to Hades for not eating His Body and drinking His Blood.

You are as spiritually dead as were/are cannibals, Ludlow.

John 6:54-63

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.

60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?

61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?

62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

5/1/2016 12:14:56 PM The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!  

tnteacher101
Over 4,000 Posts! (4,039)
Morristown, TN
66, joined Aug. 2010


Quote from kb2222:
You are as spiritually dead as were/are cannibals, Ludlow.

John 6:54-63

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.

60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?

61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?

62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.


KB: Low is so deeply entrenched into the misunderstanding of the Catholic Church's teachings that the bread and wine turns into the actual Blood and Flesh of Yeshua that he seems to be glossing over any attempt you or I or anyone else makes to show that this teaching is only symbolism and is not to be taken literally. Sometimes when we learn something it is more than difficult to relearn the truth of the matter the way it should have been learned in the first place. I found out that 76% of Catholic Church members do not believe in Transubstantiation. So, Low believes in Transubstantiation when most of the members of his church realize that it is a false teaching.

Steve

5/1/2016 1:02:28 PM The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!  

bigd9832
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (20,297)
Chicago, IL
63, joined Oct. 2007


Quote from ludlow:
God will not send someone to Hades for eating pork anymore---Peter's angel made that abundantly clear. God will send people to Hades for not eating His Body and drinking His Blood.


I thought he said God doesn't send anyone to hades???

G86 haides hah'-dace
from G1 (as negative particle) and G1492;

properly, unseen, i.e. "Hades" or the place (state) of departed souls.


Everyone who has ever died will go to 'hades.'

You will go to 'hades' one day.

The Catholic church is corrupt.

5/1/2016 2:40:31 PM The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!  

louie6332
Over 4,000 Posts! (4,274)
Falkville, AL
74, joined Nov. 2011


Tnt, doctrines in the Catholic Church are not created by vote as they are in some Protestant Sects. When Christ told his hearers: “My flesh is real bread and my blood real drink, and unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you will not have life in you ,” they took him literally and left him. And he asked his apostles whether they would leave him too, and Peter chimed up and said: Lord, where would we go? You have the words of eternal life”, or something to that effect. They took him literally too. Lies do not form any part of the "words of eternal life". And after the Last Supper, Our Lord took bread and blessed it and said, this IS my body that will be given up for you, and he poured wine and blessed it and said, this IS my blood that will be shed for you...do this in memory of me. Now saying that the doctrine of transubstantiation is a false doctrine is saying that Christ lied when he uttered all these teachings, that he was teaching heresy. You cannot have it both ways Tnt, either Christ lied or transubstantiation is a fact. And we know it is a fact, because of the Eucharistic miracles that have been documented. In these miracles, the bread turned to human heart tissue, and the blood to human blood, all of the same blood type, and the same DNA, the same type and DNA that is found in traces of blood found on the Shroud of Turin. Is this a coincidence? Are the scientists who performed these tests liars too? Are you the only one who is not a liar?

Tnt, Jesus Christ is not a liar. Take him literally. You are trying to have it both ways. You are trying to reject what he says without leaving him. But you can’t have it both ways.

Louie

5/1/2016 3:04:58 PM The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!  

kb2222
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (11,098)
Jacksonville, FL
75, joined Apr. 2011


Are you blind, Louie? I posted John 6:54-63. Can't you read?

5/1/2016 4:25:35 PM The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!  

tnteacher101
Over 4,000 Posts! (4,039)
Morristown, TN
66, joined Aug. 2010


Quote from louie6332:
Tnt, doctrines in the Catholic Church are not created by vote as they are in some Protestant Sects. When Christ told his hearers: “My flesh is real bread and my blood real drink, and unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you will not have life in you ,” they took him literally and left him. And he asked his apostles whether they would leave him too, and Peter chimed up and said: Lord, where would we go? You have the words of eternal life”, or something to that effect. They took him literally too. Lies do not form any part of the "words of eternal life". And after the Last Supper, Our Lord took bread and blessed it and said, this IS my body that will be given up for you, and he poured wine and blessed it and said, this IS my blood that will be shed for you...do this in memory of me. Now saying that the doctrine of transubstantiation is a false doctrine is saying that Christ lied when he uttered all these teachings, that he was teaching heresy. You cannot have it both ways Tnt, either Christ lied or transubstantiation is a fact. And we know it is a fact, because of the Eucharistic miracles that have been documented. In these miracles, the bread turned to human heart tissue, and the blood to human blood, all of the same blood type, and the same DNA, the same type and DNA that is found in traces of blood found on the Shroud of Turin. Is this a coincidence? Are the scientists who performed these tests liars too? Are you the only one who is not a liar?

Tnt, Jesus Christ is not a liar. Take him literally. You are trying to have it both ways. You are trying to reject what he says without leaving him. But you can’t have it both ways.

Louie


Louie: I have always thought of the bread of the Lord's Supper as being symbolic of Yeshua's Flesh and the wine as being symbolic of Yeshua's Blood. If a true miracle did take place one would think the bread and wine would actually turn into Yeshua's real Flesh and Blood before one eats the bread and wine so that Yeshua's Flesh and Blood would be visible for the ones eating the bread and drinking the wine. That way there would be no question at all as to the bread and wine being truly Yeshua's Flesh and Blood. I have always known the bread and wine was symbolic of Yeshua's Flesh and Blood. I am not sure we have to truly believe the bread and Wine is actually the Flesh and Blood of Yeshua to please Yeshua. Protestant Churches don't stress the belief that the bread and wine turns into the real Flesh and Blood of Yeshua. One would think that if the Transubstantiation is true that more of the Catholic Church Members would accept that belief since the Catholic Church has always taught it.

Steve

5/2/2016 12:58:37 AM The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!  

ludlowlowell
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (27,800)
Panama City, FL
63, joined Feb. 2008


Jesus did not say, This is a symbol of my body...this is a symbol of my blood. He said, This IS my body...this IS my blood.

5/2/2016 2:56:28 AM The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!  

tnteacher101
Over 4,000 Posts! (4,039)
Morristown, TN
66, joined Aug. 2010


Quote from ludlowlowell:
Jesus did not say, This is a symbol of my body...this is a symbol of my blood. He said, This IS my body...this IS my blood.


Low: Yahweh is often referred to as a rock but we all know that Yahweh is not a true rock/stone.

Psalm 62:2
He only is my rock and my salvation, My stronghold; I shall not be greatly shaken.

Psalm 89:26
"He will cry to Me, 'You are my Father, My God, and the rock of my salvation.'


Mark 12:10
"Have you not even read this Scripture: 'THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED, THIS BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone;


Isaiah 26:4
"Trust in the LORD forever, For in GOD the LORD, we have an everlasting Rock.

Steve

5/2/2016 10:05:08 AM The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!  

bigd9832
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (20,297)
Chicago, IL
63, joined Oct. 2007


Quote from ludlow:
Jesus did not say, This is a symbol of my body...this is a symbol of my blood. He said, This IS my body...this IS my blood.


Actually, that is not entirely true...

CLV Lk 22:19 And, taking bread, giving thanks, He breaks it and gives to them, saying, "Take. This is My body, given for your sakes. This do for a recollection of Me."

CLV 1C 11:24 and giving thanks, breaks it and said, "This is My body, broken for your sakes. This do for a recollection of Me."


Both Jesus and Paul make it pretty clear that this act is a symbol to remember Him by.

The Catholic church is corrupt.

5/2/2016 11:05:58 AM The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!  

tnteacher101
Over 4,000 Posts! (4,039)
Morristown, TN
66, joined Aug. 2010


Louie or Low: Both of you say that there is evidence of the bread and wine that is used for the Lord's Supper/Mass turning into the actual Flesh and Blood of Yeshua. Is there some way that either of you could share with me the evidence that you are referring to. If there is verifiable evidence then I would very much like to see it and I am sure the entire Christian World would like to see such evidence.

Steve

5/2/2016 8:08:05 PM The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!  

louie6332
Over 4,000 Posts! (4,274)
Falkville, AL
74, joined Nov. 2011


BigD, when Jesus said “This IS my body”, etc, he made it pretty clear that it was his “body which shall be given up for you”. And when he said, “My flesh is real food, and my blood real drink, and unless you eat by flesh and drink my blood you will not have life in you”, he made it pretty clear that it was his flesh and blood. And when the Apostle said that those who drink his blood and eat his flesh unworthily eat and drink to their damnation, he made it clear that it was the actual body and blood of Christ. Get over it BigD.

Tnt, the Eucharistic Miracles have been documented in various sources, all of which are interesting reads. For example, dozens of them have been compiled and documented in the book “Eucharistic Miracles” by Joan Carroll Cruz, published by Tan Books and Publishers.

Louie

5/2/2016 8:32:02 PM The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!  

looptex1
Over 2,000 Posts (3,909)
Chatsworth, GA
48, joined Jun. 2008


Quote from louie6332:
BigD, when Jesus said “This IS my body”, etc, he made it pretty clear that it was his “body which shall be given up for you”. And when he said, “My flesh is real food, and my blood real drink, and unless you eat by flesh and drink my blood you will not have life in you”, he made it pretty clear that it was his flesh and blood. And when the Apostle said that those who drink his blood and eat his flesh unworthily eat and drink to their damnation, he made it clear that it was the actual body and blood of Christ. Get over it BigD.

Tnt, the Eucharistic Miracles have been documented in various sources, all of which are interesting reads. For example, dozens of them have been compiled and documented in the book “Eucharistic Miracles” by Joan Carroll Cruz, published by Tan Books and Publishers.

Louie
cherry pick much there?
He also made it very clear when he said " my words are spirit"
He also made it clear after supper "if I wash thee not"

Take it all, is it in the flesh and blood or in the washing?

You may lay claim to the bread and wine turning into the real flesh and blood.
But you've not managed to get really washed yet.

5/3/2016 4:29:06 AM The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!  

ludlowlowell
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (27,800)
Panama City, FL
63, joined Feb. 2008


Baptism washes us, Confirmation strengthens us, Confession restores us to grace when we fall from it, Communion feeds us, Matrimony is the beginning of Christian family life, Anointing prepares us for death or strengthens us while sick, and Ordination ensures that we have priests so that the other six sacraments can continue. This is the beautiful sacramental system Jesus gave to His beloved bride the Church.

5/3/2016 8:29:27 AM The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!  

looptex1
Over 2,000 Posts (3,909)
Chatsworth, GA
48, joined Jun. 2008


Quote from ludlowlowell:
Baptism washes us, Confirmation strengthens us, Confession restores us to grace when we fall from it, Communion feeds us, Matrimony is the beginning of Christian family life, Anointing prepares us for death or strengthens us while sick, and Ordination ensures that we have priests so that the other six sacraments can continue. This is the beautiful sacramental system Jesus gave to His beloved bride the Church.
maybe you misunderstood.
Jesus said "if "I" wash thee not"
He didn't say anything about someone else washing you.
What was it john said?
I baptism you with water, but there is one that cometh after me, preferred before me, he will baptize you with fire and the Holy ghost.
Jesus never did baptism with water and it isn't the water baptism that washes.
It is the fire that cleanses and purifies

5/3/2016 11:45:01 AM The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!  

ludlowlowell
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (27,800)
Panama City, FL
63, joined Feb. 2008


The next-to-last verse of Matthew is, "Go out unto the world and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit". Jesus founded the Church so that Jesus' salvific work could continue.

5/3/2016 4:03:16 PM The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!  

looptex1
Over 2,000 Posts (3,909)
Chatsworth, GA
48, joined Jun. 2008


Quote from ludlowlowell:
The next-to-last verse of Matthew is, "Go out unto the world and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit". Jesus founded the Church so that Jesus' salvific work could continue.
and that says what?
What he told them to do does not change anything.
It does not say it brings salvation, yet if you would read you would find what it does do.
But you don't want to know do you?

5/3/2016 4:07:26 PM The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!  

looptex1
Over 2,000 Posts (3,909)
Chatsworth, GA
48, joined Jun. 2008


Quote from ludlowlowell:
The next-to-last verse of Matthew is, "Go out unto the world and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit". Jesus founded the Church so that Jesus' salvific work could continue.
and might we also take note, according to your very on words, he told them to baptism "in the name of" father son and holy spirit.
That's a long ways from baptizing "with" the father son and holy spirit isn't it.
Once again, what did John say?
"It is he that will baptize the will fire and the Holy ghost."
Yep, I think I'll believe it all Instead of just parts.
How about you lud?

5/3/2016 4:32:14 PM The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!  

followjesusonly
Over 7,500 Posts!! (8,997)
Kingman, AZ
73, joined May. 2012


Quote from louie6332:
Tnt, doctrines in the Catholic Church are not created by vote as they are in some Protestant Sects. When Christ told his hearers: “My flesh is real bread and my blood real drink, and unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you will not have life in you ,” they took him literally and left him. And he asked his apostles whether they would leave him too, and Peter chimed up and said: Lord, where would we go? You have the words of eternal life”, or something to that effect. They took him literally too. Lies do not form any part of the "words of eternal life". And after the Last Supper, Our Lord took bread and blessed it and said, this IS my body that will be given up for you, and he poured wine and blessed it and said, this IS my blood that will be shed for you...do this in memory of me. Now saying that the doctrine of transubstantiation is a false doctrine is saying that Christ lied when he uttered all these teachings, that he was teaching heresy. You cannot have it both ways Tnt, either Christ lied or transubstantiation is a fact. And we know it is a fact, because of the Eucharistic miracles that have been documented. In these miracles, the bread turned to human heart tissue, and the blood to human blood, all of the same blood type, and the same DNA, the same type and DNA that is found in traces of blood found on the Shroud of Turin. Is this a coincidence? Are the scientists who performed these tests liars too? Are you the only one who is not a liar?

Tnt, Jesus Christ is not a liar. Take him literally. You are trying to have it both ways. You are trying to reject what he says without leaving him. But you can’t have it both ways.

Louie


But Louie, you old hypocrite you, you yourself do not take Jesus literally. Every time you call a priest "Father," you give Jesus the finger.

"Call no man your father upon the earth: "for one is your Father, which is in heaven." (Matthew 23:9)

"Why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?" (Luke 6:46)

“Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.” (Mark 7:9)

"If a man love me, he will keep my words."(John 14:23)
"He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings." (John 14:24)

And the word which you have heard, is not mine; but the Father's who sent me." (John 14:24)

Answer Jesus, Louie, "Why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?" (Luke 6:46)



[Edited 5/3/2016 4:33:01 PM ]

5/3/2016 4:45:02 PM The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!  

followjesusonly
Over 7,500 Posts!! (8,997)
Kingman, AZ
73, joined May. 2012


Quote from ludlowlowell:
The next-to-last verse of Matthew is, "Go out unto the world and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit". Jesus founded the Church so that Jesus' salvific work could continue.


That verse has been forged by your church and Jesus' words changed by your church and it's a known fact. The original verse said, "baptize in my name." "My name' being the name of Jesus.

And no, Jesus did not found your church. Jesus founded the church of the universal spiritual fellowship of all believers. And Jesus' "salvific" work, if there was such a thing, was finished the day Jesus said, "It is finished." Joh_19:30

"It is finished" does not mean, "continue the salvific work." It means, "it is finished."

You are wrong about almost everything you say, Lud. How can you stand it?

The Catholic Encyclopedia, II, page 263:

"The baptismal formula was changed from the name of Jesus Christ to the words Father, Son, and Holy Spirit by the Catholic Church in the second century."

The Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics:

As to Matthew 28:19, it says: It is the central piece of evidence for the traditional (Trinitarian) view. If it were undisputed, this would, of course, be decisive, but its trustworthiness is impugned on grounds of textual criticism, literary criticism and historical criticism. The same Encyclopedia further states that: "The obvious explanation of the silence of the New Testament on the triune name, and the use of another (JESUS NAME) formula in Acts and Paul, is that this other formula was the earlier, and the triune formula is a later addition."

Edmund Schlink, The Doctrine of Baptism, page 28:

"The baptismal command in its Matthew 28:19 form can not be the historical origin of Christian baptism. At the very least, it must be assumed that the text has been transmitted in a form expanded by the [Catholic] church."

The Tyndale New Testament Commentaries, I, 275:

"It is often affirmed that the words in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost are not the ipsissima verba [exact words] of Jesus, but...a later liturgical addition."

Wilhelm Bousset, Kyrios Christianity, page 295:

"The testimony for the wide distribution of the simple baptismal formula [in the Name of Jesus] down into the second century is so overwhelming that even in Matthew 28:19, the Trinitarian formula was later inserted."

The Catholic Encyclopedia, II, page 263:

"The baptismal formula was changed from the name of Jesus Christ to the words Father, Son, and Holy Spirit by the Catholic Church in the second century."

More here: http://www.onenesspentecostal.com/matt2819-willis.htm

5/3/2016 4:52:46 PM The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!  

followjesusonly
Over 7,500 Posts!! (8,997)
Kingman, AZ
73, joined May. 2012


Quote from looptex1:
and might we also take note, according to your very on words, he told them to baptism "in the name of" father son and holy spirit.
That's a long ways from baptizing "with" the father son and holy spirit isn't it.
Once again, what did John say?
"It is he that will baptize the will fire and the Holy ghost."
Yep, I think I'll believe it all Instead of just parts.
How about you lud?


Ludlow says: "Catholics believe in the Bible as interpreted by the Church." So Lud only believes the parts he wants to believe. For instance, if Jesus says, "Call no man your father upon the earth: "for one is your Father, which is in heaven." (Matthew 23:9) and the Catholic church interprets that to mean, "Call all priests "Father," then Ludlow accepts what the church says and disregards and disobeys Jesus.

And now I say: "I believe in the bible as interpreted by The Spirit of Truth that Jesus sent to guide me into all truth." (John 16:13)

Nice huh?

5/3/2016 4:57:04 PM The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!  

followjesusonly
Over 7,500 Posts!! (8,997)
Kingman, AZ
73, joined May. 2012


Quote from louie6332:

Tnt, the Eucharistic Miracles have been documented in various sources,


They have not, Louie.

5/3/2016 6:19:45 PM The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!  

louie6332
Over 4,000 Posts! (4,274)
Falkville, AL
74, joined Nov. 2011


Furch, apostate Catholic who thinks that the Bible has been corrupted and that Jesus didn’t say half of what is attributed to him in the Gospels, you say, concerning the Eucharistic miracles: “the Eucharistic miracles have not been documented in various sources”.

Why do you resort to lies, Furch, when you cannot refute what is said? Are you that desperate? Like a drowning man grasping at straws? Is it because you are an adopted son and partisan of the Father of Liars, and you will use lies to fight truth like you are doing with the Urantia Book? But your war against truth is futile, for truth is its own defense. You are a victim of the demons roaming the world like furies seeking to deceive even the elect if that were possible, but misery loves company, so now you want us to be victims too. Right Furch?

How old was Jesus when he died on the Cross according to your Urantia Book Furch? --nevermind, I don't want to get the thread off subject. Furch, why is it that Satanists who steal consecrated hosts for their Black Masses never steal hosts from Protestant Worship Services, but always steal them from Catholic Masses? Can you and your Urantia Book explain that?

Louie

5/3/2016 7:02:41 PM The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!  

followjesusonly
Over 7,500 Posts!! (8,997)
Kingman, AZ
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Quote from louie6332:
Furch, apostate Catholic who thinks that the Bible has been corrupted and that Jesus didn’t say half of what is attributed to him in the Gospels, you say, concerning the Eucharistic miracles: “the Eucharistic miracles have not been documented in various sources”.

Why do you resort to lies, Furch, when you cannot refute what is said? Are you that desperate? Like a drowning man grasping at straws?


Why do you resort to making statements that cannot be proven? Just because someone wrote a book about alleged Eucharistic miracles doesn't mean any of them happened. Are you that desperate? Like a drowning man grasping at straws?

And why do you lie? I have never said that Jesus didn't say half of what is attributed to him in the "Gospels." You do an awful lot of that sort of lying, -misstating people.

Is it because you are an adopted son and partisan of the Father of Liars, and you will use lies to fight truth like you are doing with the Urantia Book?


I use truth to fight your lies, Louie. Yours and Ludlow's. Your entire church speaks for Satan. That's why it refuses to obey God and why it's involved in ritual cannibalism and why it elevates its leader to the status and title of God, "The Holy Father." Shame, shame.

But your war against truth is futile, for truth is its own defense. You are a victim of the demons roaming the world like furies seeking to deceive even the elect if that were possible, but misery loves company, so now you want us to be victims too. Right Furch?


You've already been deceived, Louie. You were deceived the minute Paul showed up talking about Paul and Paul said, "...being crafty, I caught you with guile." 2Co 12:16

He caught you with guile, Louie. Take it literally like you tell others to do.

Why don't you obey Jesus, Louie? You tell people to take the bible literally, and you yourself do not. That's makes you a hypocrite, Louie, a phony like Ludlow.

How old was Jesus when he died on the Cross according to your Urantia Book Furch? --nevermind, I don't want to get the thread off subject.


Jesus was almost 37, Louie, and no, I won't "nevermind." It's too late. You already asked. Jesus was born on August 21, 7 BC, and He died on April 7, 30 AD. You figure it out.

Furch, why is it that Satanists who steal consecrated hosts for their Black Masses never steal hosts from Protestant Worship Services, but always steal them from Catholic Masses? Can you and your Urantia Book explain that? Louie


I have no basis to believe that any of what you just said is true, so there is nothing to explain. Do you have a doctor, Louie, that you see regularly? Is he a Catholic? If not, please ask him about it, ask your doctor to explain why Satanists who steal consecrated hosts for their Black Masses never steal hosts from Protestant Worship Services, but always steal them from Catholic Masses? Go ahead, Louie, ask him.

5/4/2016 12:28:11 PM The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!  

tnteacher101
Over 4,000 Posts! (4,039)
Morristown, TN
66, joined Aug. 2010


Louie and Furch: It seems to me that if we partake of the Last Supper/Mass that we are doing what Yeshua told us to do by eating the bread/Flesh and wine/Blood of Yeshua. If we don't think the bread and wine is the actual Flesh and Blood of Yeshua but if we eat it just the same then I would think that we have complied with the teaching of Yeshua to eat His Flesh and Blood. If I eat what I think is watermelon and if it turns out that what I ate was cantaloupe then I will receive the nourishment of Cantaloupe and not watermelon. If I take what I think is a placebo pill/dummy pill but it turns out to be an aspirin then I will get the benefits of the aspirin and not the placebo pill. So, in that line of reasoning if we eat and drink what we think is bread and wine and it turns out that it is the actual Flesh and Blood of Yeshua then we would reap the benefits of the Flesh and Blood of Yeshua and we have complied with Yeshua's Command to eat His Flesh and Blood.

Steve

5/4/2016 1:37:25 PM The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!  

ludlowlowell
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Panama City, FL
63, joined Feb. 2008


A better analogy is that The Holy Eucharist is a medicine---taken in the right way it does us much good, taken wrongly or unworthily it does us much harm.

"Who ever eats the bread or drinks the cup unworthily is guilty of the Body and Blood of the Lord."

--I Corinthians 11:27

To receive worthily, one must first believe that It really is the Body and Blood of Christ. Receiving without believing, how unworthy is that? Next, to receive worthily means that one has to be a Catholic in the state of grace (a true believer who believes ALL Catholic doctrine, and who has not committed any mortal sins since his last Confession.

Communion is food but it is food for the soul. The soul has to be in the right disposition.

Tnt, you may not be aware of the fact that the Bread and wine can only become the Body and Blood of the Lord if a priest first consecrates it by saying "this is my body" and "this is my blood" over it. This is done in the Mass. A layman cannot do it and a Protestant minister cannot do it---the priest can do it because he received that power at his ordination. A Catholic priest has two supernatural powers---one, he can forgive sins, two, he can change bread and wine into Jesus' Body and Blood. He can only do these things because God gives him this power, but still he has these powers.

"How to get a Catholic to lose his faith? That's easy---get him to make some unworthy Communions."

---Voltaire (agnostic French writer of the 18th century)

5/4/2016 2:22:54 PM The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!  

louie6332
Over 4,000 Posts! (4,274)
Falkville, AL
74, joined Nov. 2011


Lud, I have one correction to make to what you said, if you will. You include “a true believer who believes ALL Catholic doctrine” as a condition for worthy reception of Holy Communion. By “ALL Catholic doctrine”, I know you mean “everything that the popes have taught”. But you will be hard pressed to find any printed examination of coincidence that lists “belief” or “disbelief” as a mortal sin. I know of no such list.

There are some Catholic priests, including some Traditional Catholic priests, who, in their confusion, will deny you Communion, if they know you do not believe that popes are infallible, for example, which would include me of course (priests, by the way have no authority to do this except in the case of public scandal, only Bishops as do it, and then only under certain circumstances). But there is no list of "beliefs" that constitute mortal sin in the Church that I am aware of. In fact, there is not even a complete list of so called infallible papal teachings in the Church (so how can you even know you believe everything the popes have taught, if there is no complete list of those teachings?). And you Lud, do not believe that the Earth is at the center of the Universe, and that the Sun and the Universe orbits the Earth. You yourself have admitted this. But this IS a papal teaching of no less than three different popes. So under your own criteria, you are in a state of mortal sin and have received communion in a state of mortal sin because of this belief. Lud, sins, by definition, are acts of disobedience to God, they constitute an action or an inaction. Belief is not an action.

Among the papal teachings, Lud, are teachings that contradict the teachings of other popes and that contradict facts of nature. This is documented. But whenever two propositions contradict each other, at least one of them is necessarily false. So you cannot believe both. Is failure to believe contradictions a mortal sin? No, because God is a God of Truth. Mortal sins pertain to disobeying God's commandments, not to beliefs.

Louie

5/4/2016 5:37:01 PM The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!  

ludlowlowell
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Louie, as I'm sure you know the Church distinguishes between material heresy and formal heresy. The latter deliberately reject the Church's teaching but the former reject the Church's teaching because they are mistaken as to what the Church actually teaches. Only a "formal" heretic would be receiving Communion unworthily.

5/4/2016 5:38:28 PM The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!  

tnteacher101
Over 4,000 Posts! (4,039)
Morristown, TN
66, joined Aug. 2010


Quote from louie6332:
Lud, I have one correction to make to what you said, if you will. You include “a true believer who believes ALL Catholic doctrine” as a condition for worthy reception of Holy Communion. By “ALL Catholic doctrine”, I know you mean “everything that the popes have taught”. But you will be hard pressed to find any printed examination of coincidence that lists “belief” or “disbelief” as a mortal sin. I know of no such list.

There are some Catholic priests, including some Traditional Catholic priests, who, in their confusion, will deny you Communion, if they know you do not believe that popes are infallible, for example, which would include me of course (priests, by the way have no authority to do this except in the case of public scandal, only Bishops as do it, and then only under certain circumstances). But there is no list of "beliefs" that constitute mortal sin in the Church that I am aware of. In fact, there is not even a complete list of so called infallible papal teachings in the Church (so how can you even know you believe everything the popes have taught, if there is no complete list of those teachings?). And you Lud, do not believe that the Earth is at the center of the Universe, and that the Sun and the Universe orbits the Earth. You yourself have admitted this. But this IS a papal teaching of no less than three different popes. So under your own criteria, you are in a state of mortal sin and have received communion in a state of mortal sin because of this belief. Lud, sins, by definition, are acts of disobedience to God, they constitute an action or an inaction. Belief is not an action.

Among the papal teachings, Lud, are teachings that contradict the teachings of other popes and that contradict facts of nature. This is documented. But whenever two propositions contradict each other, at least one of them is necessarily false. So you cannot believe both. Is failure to believe contradictions a mortal sin? No, because God is a God of Truth. Mortal sins pertain to disobeying God's commandments, not to beliefs.

Louie


Louie and Low: It seems to me that both of you are reading way too much into the authority of the Catholic Church. When Yeshua was living on this Earth there was no Catholic Church and it is my guess that there was no Catholic Churches until a couple of hundred years after Yeshua died on the Cross. I am well aware that the Catholic Church claims/teaches that Yeshua was the beginning of the Catholic Church but since the Catholic Church did not and still does not follow the example set by Yeshua I think the Catholic Church is making claims that are just not reasonable. The Catholic Church does not follow Yahweh's Laws/Torah and Commands so how can they claim that Yeshua started the Catholic Church when they don't follow the example set by Yeshua. Paul was the very one that attempted to start lots of churches and I am not aware of Yeshua or the true 12 Apostles starting any organized church. Paul started lots of churches but the Bible plainly tells us that the people in Asia all turned against Paul and abandoned the teachings of Paul. The reason Paul went to the gentiles in the first place was because the 12 Tribes of Jacob would not have accepted Paul's heathen and strange teachings. The gentiles eventually figured out that Paul was not teachings the truth of the Old Testament, the only Bible that was available at that time, so that is the reason they turned against Paul. It is a huge read flag when anyone claims that their church is the only exclusive church that can lead people to Yahweh's Rest/Paradise/Heaven. Claims of this boastful nature are to be taken with a grain of salt, so to speak. Claims of this magnitude normally exposes a church or group of people that are simply teaching false doctrine. The Bible plainly tells us that the Believers of Yahweh's Word are the Temple of Yahweh.

Steve

5/4/2016 7:17:01 PM The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!  

followjesusonly
Over 7,500 Posts!! (8,997)
Kingman, AZ
73, joined May. 2012


Quote from tnteacher101:
Louie and Low: It seems to me that both of you are reading way too much into the authority of the Catholic Church. When Yeshua was living on this Earth there was no Catholic Church and it is my guess that there was no Catholic Churches until a couple of hundred years after Yeshua died on the Cross. I am well aware that the Catholic Church claims/teaches that Yeshua was the beginning of the Catholic Church but since the Catholic Church did not and still does not follow the example set by Yeshua I think the Catholic Church is making claims that are just not reasonable. The Catholic Church does not follow Yahweh's Laws/Torah and Commands so how can they claim that Yeshua started the Catholic Church when they don't follow the example set by Yeshua. Paul was the very one that attempted to start lots of churches and I am not aware of Yeshua or the true 12 Apostles starting any organized church. Paul started lots of churches but the Bible plainly tells us that the people in Asia all turned against Paul and abandoned the teachings of Paul. The reason Paul went to the gentiles in the first place was because the 12 Tribes of Jacob would not have accepted Paul's heathen and strange teachings. The gentiles eventually figured out that Paul was not teachings the truth of the Old Testament, the only Bible that was available at that time, so that is the reason they turned against Paul. It is a huge read flag when anyone claims that their church is the only exclusive church that can lead people to Yahweh's Rest/Paradise/Heaven. Claims of this boastful nature are to be taken with a grain of salt, so to speak. Claims of this magnitude normally exposes a church or group of people that are simply teaching false doctrine. The Bible plainly tells us that the Believers of Yahweh's Word are the Temple of Yahweh.

Steve


Also, just one comment here, you do what you want, but...

I think you would be better off and better understood and better accepted if you would use the terms "God" and "Jesus" instead of Yahweh and Yeshoshua or whatever.

5/4/2016 7:53:47 PM The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!  

ludlowlowell
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (27,800)
Panama City, FL
63, joined Feb. 2008


Tnt, it is very clear from the Book of Acts---not written by Paul---that the early Christians ate pork, did not circumcize, worshipped on Sunday, had bishops, elders (priests), and deacons, that Peter made all the decisions, and had the Breaking of the Bread (the Mass). The early Church was as Catholic as it could be.

5/4/2016 9:43:02 PM The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!  

tnteacher101
Over 4,000 Posts! (4,039)
Morristown, TN
66, joined Aug. 2010


Quote from followjesusonly:
Also, just one comment here, you do what you want, but...

I think you would be better off and better understood and better accepted if you would use the terms "God" and "Jesus" instead of Yahweh and Yeshoshua or whatever.


Furch: You may or may not be interested in reading this:

What is the real name of God? YHWH, Jehovah, Yahweh?
by Matt Slick

The real name of God is YHWH. The four letters1 that make up His name found in Exodus 3:14. However, there is no correct pronunciation for the name of God because the letters are only consonents, not vowels. So we cannot tell what the "real" name of God is YAHWEH, or YEHWAH, or YAHWAH, or YEHWEH, etc.

Exodus 3:13-15, “Then Moses said to God, ‘Behold, I am going to the sons of Israel, and I shall say to them, “The God of your fathers has sent me to you.” Now they may say to me, ‘What is His name?’ What shall I say to them?” 14 And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM”[HWH]; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM[AHWH] has sent me to you.’ God, furthermore, said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘The Lord [YHWH], the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is My name forever, and this is My memorial-name to all generations.”
Exodus 20:1-3, "Then God spoke all these words, saying, 2 “I am the LORD[YHWH] your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. 3 “You shall have no other gods before Me."
NOTE: the Hebrew root for "to be" is HWH. This is why there are variations of the form: HWH-?????????, AHWH-?????????, YHWH-???????
When God says, "I AM,” He is speaking His name. In the Hebrew language that this verse was written in, the letters are yod, he, vav, he, from which we get YHWH. These four letters were very loosely translated into the English "Jehovah." However, there is no "j" sound in the Hebrew. So, a better approximation of the name of God would be Yahweh.

To reiterate, the pronunciation of God’s name is difficult. Because when the Jews wrote His name in Hebrew Scriptures, they did not use vowel designations. They only used consonants. Therefore, the phrase, “The name of God is YHWH,” would appear as “th nm f gd s yhwh.” This wasn’t a problem with the Hebrews because they knew what the words were and how to pronounce them. It was not until many hundreds of years later that the Jews started to insert what was called "vowel points" into the copied texts of the Hebrew Old Testament.

Nevertheless, from the text above the proper name of God translated into English is "I AM," which we transliterate into the English YHWH.2

Source: https://carm.org/what-real-name-god-yhwh-jehovah-yahweh


Furch: The name Yeshua. This article is a little lengthy. You may or may not want to read it. Here is the link to it: http://www.thenazareneway.com/yeshua_jesus_real_name.htm

Steve

5/4/2016 9:48:52 PM The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!  

tnteacher101
Over 4,000 Posts! (4,039)
Morristown, TN
66, joined Aug. 2010


Quote from ludlowlowell:
Tnt, it is very clear from the Book of Acts---not written by Paul---that the early Christians ate pork, did not circumcize, worshipped on Sunday, had bishops, elders (priests), and deacons, that Peter made all the decisions, and had the Breaking of the Bread (the Mass). The early Church was as Catholic as it could be.


Low: I know Acts was written by Paul's traveling companion Luke, possibly the only friend Paul had.

Would you kindly list/post the verses that you think showed that Yeshua and the true 12 Apostles ate swine's flesh and the other points you want to make that you mentioned above. Until you do I will assume you have no evidence at all.

Steve

5/4/2016 11:39:06 PM The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!  

ludlowlowell
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Panama City, FL
63, joined Feb. 2008


Swine's flesh: Acts 10:13. Circumcision: Acts 15:1-30. Sunday rest and worship: Acts 20:7.

5/5/2016 12:11:50 AM The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!  

followjesusonly
Over 7,500 Posts!! (8,997)
Kingman, AZ
73, joined May. 2012


*
THE FATHER’S NAME

1:1.1 Of all the names by which God the Father is known throughout the universes, those which designate him as the First Source and the Universe Center are most often encountered. The First Father is known by various names in different universes and in different sectors of the same universe. The names which the creature assigns to the Creator are much dependent on the creature’s concept of the Creator. The First Source and Universe Center has never revealed himself by name, only by nature. If we believe that we are the children of this Creator, it is only natural that we should eventually call him Father. But this is the name of our own choosing, and it grows out of the recognition of our personal relationship with the First Source and Center.

1:1.2 The Universal Father never imposes any form of arbitrary recognition, formal worship, or slavish service upon the intelligent will creatures of the universes. The evolutionary inhabitants of the worlds of time and space must of themselves—in their own hearts—recognize, love, and voluntarily worship him. The Creator refuses to coerce or compel the submission of the spiritual free wills of his material creatures. The affectionate dedication of the human will to the doing of the Father’s will is man’s choicest gift to God; in fact, such a consecration of creature will constitutes man’s only possible gift of true value to the Paradise Father. In God, man lives, moves, and has his being; there is nothing which man can give to God except this choosing to abide by the Father’s will, and such decisions, effected by the intelligent will creatures of the universes, constitute the reality of that true worship which is so satisfying to the love-dominated nature of the Creator Father.

1:1.3 When you have once become truly God-conscious, after you really discover the majestic Creator and begin to experience the realization of the indwelling presence of the divine controller, then, in accordance with your enlightenment and in accordance with the manner and method by which the divine Sons reveal God, you will find a name for the Universal Father which will be adequately expressive of your concept of the First Great Source and Center. And so, on different worlds and in various universes, the Creator becomes known by numerous appellations, in spirit of relationship all meaning the same but, in words and symbols, each name standing for the degree, the depth, of his enthronement in the hearts of his creatures of any given realm. -The Urantia Book

Quote from tnteacher101:
Furch: You may or may not be interested in reading this:

What is the real name of God? YHWH, Jehovah, Yahweh?
by Matt Slick

The real name of God is YHWH. The four letters1 that make up His name found in Exodus 3:14. However, there is no correct pronunciation for the name of God because the letters are only consonents, not vowels. So we cannot tell what the "real" name of God is YAHWEH, or YEHWAH, or YAHWAH, or YEHWEH, etc.

Exodus 3:13-15, “Then Moses said to God, ‘Behold, I am going to the sons of Israel, and I shall say to them, “The God of your fathers has sent me to you.” Now they may say to me, ‘What is His name?’ What shall I say to them?” 14 And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM”[HWH]; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM[AHWH] has sent me to you.’ God, furthermore, said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘The Lord [YHWH], the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is My name forever, and this is My memorial-name to all generations.”
Exodus 20:1-3, "Then God spoke all these words, saying, 2 “I am the LORD[YHWH] your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. 3 “You shall have no other gods before Me."
NOTE: the Hebrew root for "to be" is HWH. This is why there are variations of the form: HWH-?????????, AHWH-?????????, YHWH-???????
When God says, "I AM,” He is speaking His name. In the Hebrew language that this verse was written in, the letters are yod, he, vav, he, from which we get YHWH. These four letters were very loosely translated into the English "Jehovah." However, there is no "j" sound in the Hebrew. So, a better approximation of the name of God would be Yahweh.

To reiterate, the pronunciation of God’s name is difficult. Because when the Jews wrote His name in Hebrew Scriptures, they did not use vowel designations. They only used consonants. Therefore, the phrase, “The name of God is YHWH,” would appear as “th nm f gd s yhwh.” This wasn’t a problem with the Hebrews because they knew what the words were and how to pronounce them. It was not until many hundreds of years later that the Jews started to insert what was called "vowel points" into the copied texts of the Hebrew Old Testament.

Nevertheless, from the text above the proper name of God translated into English is "I AM," which we transliterate into the English YHWH.2

Source: https://carm.org/what-real-name-god-yhwh-jehovah-yahweh


Furch: The name Yeshua. This article is a little lengthy. You may or may not want to read it. Here is the link to it: http://www.thenazareneway.com/yeshua_jesus_real_name.htm

Steve


5/5/2016 12:38:44 AM The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!  

tnteacher101
Over 4,000 Posts! (4,039)
Morristown, TN
66, joined Aug. 2010


Quote from ludlowlowell:
Swine's flesh: Acts 10:13. Circumcision: Acts 15:1-30. Sunday rest and worship: Acts 20:7.


Low: I have repeatedly shown you that Peter's Dream/Vision had absolutely nothing to do with eating unclean animals and everything to do with accepting gentiles "if" they follow Yahweh's Laws/Torah and Commands. Since they were gentiles it is doubtful that they will continue learning about the Word of Yahweh. Notice that Yeshua plainly said that He came only for the 12 Tribes of Jacob which was the House of Israel and the House of Jacob. Acts 20:7 states that Paul and his motley crew only broke bread. No where did it say that the first day of the week was the Sabbath Day. You are grasping for straws where there are simply no straws to be found.

Acts 15:1-30 If Luke the non apostle and traveling companion of Paul can be trusted those verses gave initial instructions for some new gentile converts. If you will notice verse 21 says that on the Sabbath the Laws of Moses were being taught implying that those new converts would eventually understand and follow all of Yahweh's Laws/Torah and Commands. Circumcision was a forever Command of Yahweh as well as all the other Laws/Torah and Commands of Yahweh as given by Moses in what is now called the Old Testament.

Low: You need to get with the program while there still may be time. Time is of the essence.

Steve

5/5/2016 2:10:55 AM The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!  

followjesusonly
Over 7,500 Posts!! (8,997)
Kingman, AZ
73, joined May. 2012


Quote from tnteacher101:
Low:
Acts 15:1-30 If Luke the non apostle and traveling companion of Paul...


Interestingly, they are BOTH "non apostles."

5/5/2016 12:30:59 PM The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!  

tnteacher101
Over 4,000 Posts! (4,039)
Morristown, TN
66, joined Aug. 2010


Quote from followjesusonly:
Interestingly, they are BOTH "non apostles."


Furch: When Moses, the Prophets, Yeshua or the true 12 Apostles write/teach something in the Bible that clashes/opposes the teachings of writers that were not apostles then we must be extremely cautious and accept the teachings of those Patriarchs over the teachings of the writers that were not apostles. One would think that taking the word of the Patriarchs over non apostles such as Paul and Luke would be taken for granted but lots of people merely toss the important Patriarchs teachings and accept the strange and false teachings of those that are not apostles.

Steve

5/5/2016 1:10:26 PM The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!  

ludlowlowell
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Panama City, FL
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In our scripture interpretation, why don't we go by the authority Jesus established for that purpose, the Catholic Church, the pillar and ground of truth?

5/5/2016 2:27:01 PM The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!  

kb2222
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (11,098)
Jacksonville, FL
75, joined Apr. 2011


Quote from ludlowlowell:
In our scripture interpretation, why don't we go by the authority Jesus established for that purpose, the Catholic Church, the pillar and ground of truth?

Ludlow, you know Jesus sent into the world at Pentecost the Holy Spirit of Truth as His replacement teacher and you know the torturous and murderous history of the Catholic Church so why do you keep on lying claiming "the Catholic Church, is the pillar and ground of truth"? Are you so corrupt you can't stop lying, Ludlow?

5/5/2016 2:42:29 PM The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!  

tnteacher101
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Morristown, TN
66, joined Aug. 2010


Low: Because of all the people that have been viciously mutilated and murderer by the Catholic Church throughout the church's history it indicates/shows that the Catholic Church is more likely to be an offspring of Satan and his demons than to be associated with the Blessed Yahweh. The Bible plainly tells us we can judge a tree by the fruit it produces. The fruit of the Catholic Church is not what I would expect from a group of people that claims to be following the teachings of the Bible. The Catholic Church appears to be following the lawless teachings of the murderer, tare and false apostle Paul and ignores the teaching of Moses, the Prophets, Yeshua and the true 12 Apostles. That puts the Catholic Church on the side of the evil one. I am not sure why any sane person would want to be associated with such a heathen church.

Steve

5/5/2016 2:44:45 PM The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!  

followjesusonly
Over 7,500 Posts!! (8,997)
Kingman, AZ
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Quote from ludlowlowell:
In our scripture interpretation, why don't we go by the authority Jesus established for that purpose, the Catholic Church, the pillar and ground of truth?


He didn't. Those are just your assertions.

Jesus gave us The Spirit of Truth to guide us into all truth. And The Spirit of Truth cannot work in your mind as long as you turn to men for your answers. When you turn to men for your answers, you put up a giant "KEEP OUT" sign for The Spirit of Truth, and He will honor your wishes.

5/5/2016 2:48:16 PM The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!  

followjesusonly
Over 7,500 Posts!! (8,997)
Kingman, AZ
73, joined May. 2012


Quote from tnteacher101:
Low: Because of all the people that have been viciously mutilated and murderer by the Catholic Church throughout the church's history it indicates/shows that the Catholic Church is more likely to be an offspring of Satan and his demons than to be associated with the Blessed Yahweh. The Bible plainly tells us we can judge a tree by the fruit it produces. The fruit of the Catholic Church is not what I would expect from a group of people that claims to be following the teachings of the Bible. The Catholic Church appears to be following the lawless teachings of the murderer, tare and false apostle Paul and ignores the teaching of Moses, the Prophets, Yeshua and the true 12 Apostles. That puts the Catholic Church on the side of the evil one. I am not sure why any sane person would want to be associated with such a heathen church.

Steve


Well said, Steve.

Mat 7:16 Ye shall know [the Catholic church] by their [homosexuals] (aka "fruits"). Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

5/5/2016 2:53:30 PM The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!  

tnteacher101
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Morristown, TN
66, joined Aug. 2010


Quote from followjesusonly:
He didn't. Those are just your assertions.

Jesus gave us The Spirit of Truth to guide us into all truth. And The Spirit of Truth cannot work in your mind as long as you turn to men for your answers. When you turn to men for your answers, you put up a giant "KEEP OUT" sign for The Spirit of Truth, and He will honor your wishes.


It appears that Low takes pride in following a lawless church that has a long and dark history of murder, torture, rape and child sexual abuse.

Low: What is it that you find comforting from a such a wholly despicable church?

Steve

5/5/2016 3:49:28 PM The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!  

ludlowlowell
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A minority of the priests are pedophiles. Most are not.

5/5/2016 3:59:51 PM The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!  

louie6332
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Falkville, AL
74, joined Nov. 2011


Tnt, you say: “Because of all the people that have been viciously mutilated and murdered by the Catholic Church throughout the Church's history it indicates/shows that the Catholic Church is more likely to be an offspring of Satan and his demons than to be associated with the Blessed Yahweh.”

Tnt, you are repeating false witness against the Church established by Jesus Christ. The Church, down through history has been the victim of those who wanted to persecute and murder Christians. You are turning this on its head. After the Revolution swept throughout the Roman Catholic Church with the Second Vatican Council it did bear bad fruit, because the illuminati took over the Throne of Peter, but God allowed that in order to separate the sheep from the goats, the chaff from the wheat—that is what the Apocalypse is all about. Satan had asked God for permission great power and more time to try all men on Earth and to try to destroy the Church. God granted this in order to separate the sheep from the goats. Satan was granted approximately a century and much greater power, but only over those who submit to him and serve him, but he was warned that if he failed to accomplish his goal in the allotted time, that he would suffer a crushing and humiliating defeat by the hand of a Holy Virgin.. The revolution in the Church and the corruption in the Church that was the result of it were all foretold ahead of time so that faithful Catholics might not be taken by surprise. And the outcome of it was also foretold so that faithful Catholics might not lose heart.

It is foretold that Satan was fail to accomplish his goal in the allotted time, although he would come close. He would conquer the whole world during the Third World War. But then, having run out of time, Mary would intervene at the head of the Armies of Heaven, crush the head of Satan, raise the Church up from its grave, and restore all things in Christ. The Revolution in the Church would then be overthrown and the Church restored to its original mission and doctrine during the last and greatest council of the Church. All plantings not put down by the heavenly Father will then be uprooted, and the whole world would then be evangelized, and after twenty years the Great Pope would announce the conversion of the whole world to the resurrected and renewed Roman Catholic Church except for the Jews, who are reserved for the End Time. There will then be unity among the workers in Christ, and there will no longer be Protestants, Pagans, and Atheists. Protestants, seeing the intervention of God in its behalf will rejoin the Church, and so will the Orthodox. God will then grant thirty to thirty four years of peace to the world (afterwards, the peace will end and the Antichrist will arise and lead the second and last world revolution of the Apocalypse. This is all foretold.

Louie

5/5/2016 4:58:52 PM The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!  

followjesusonly
Over 7,500 Posts!! (8,997)
Kingman, AZ
73, joined May. 2012


There you go again, Louie, with the "the Church established by Jesus Christ" stuff. Repeating a lie over and over won't make the lie true.

The verse doesn't mention your church, Louie. You need to stop reading into the verses whatever you want them to say and listen to what Jesus said.


Quote from louie6332:
Tnt, you say: “Because of all the people that have been viciously mutilated and murdered by the Catholic Church throughout the Church's history it indicates/shows that the Catholic Church is more likely to be an offspring of Satan and his demons than to be associated with the Blessed Yahweh.”

Tnt, you are repeating false witness against the Church established by Jesus Christ. The Church, down through history has been the victim of those who wanted to persecute and murder Christians. You are turning this on its head. After the Revolution swept throughout the Roman Catholic Church with the Second Vatican Council it did bear bad fruit, because the illuminati took over the Throne of Peter, but God allowed that in order to separate the sheep from the goats, the chaff from the wheat—that is what the Apocalypse is all about. Satan had asked God for permission great power and more time to try all men on Earth and to try to destroy the Church. God granted this in order to separate the sheep from the goats. Satan was granted approximately a century and much greater power, but only over those who submit to him and serve him, but he was warned that if he failed to accomplish his goal in the allotted time, that he would suffer a crushing and humiliating defeat by the hand of a Holy Virgin.. The revolution in the Church and the corruption in the Church that was the result of it were all foretold ahead of time so that faithful Catholics might not be taken by surprise. And the outcome of it was also foretold so that faithful Catholics might not lose heart.

It is foretold that Satan was fail to accomplish his goal in the allotted time, although he would come close. He would conquer the whole world during the Third World War. But then, having run out of time, Mary would intervene at the head of the Armies of Heaven, crush the head of Satan, raise the Church up from its grave, and restore all things in Christ. The Revolution in the Church would then be overthrown and the Church restored to its original mission and doctrine during the last and greatest council of the Church. All plantings not put down by the heavenly Father will then be uprooted, and the whole world would then be evangelized, and after twenty years the Great Pope would announce the conversion of the whole world to the resurrected and renewed Roman Catholic Church except for the Jews, who are reserved for the End Time. There will then be unity among the workers in Christ, and there will no longer be Protestants, Pagans, and Atheists. Protestants, seeing the intervention of God in its behalf will rejoin the Church, and so will the Orthodox. God will then grant thirty to thirty four years of peace to the world (afterwards, the peace will end and the Antichrist will arise and lead the second and last world revolution of the Apocalypse. This is all foretold.

Louie


5/5/2016 4:59:27 PM The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!  

followjesusonly
Over 7,500 Posts!! (8,997)
Kingman, AZ
73, joined May. 2012


Quote from ludlowlowell:
A minority of the priests are pedophiles. Most are not.


50% is not a minority.

5/5/2016 5:07:49 PM The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!  

tnteacher101
Over 4,000 Posts! (4,039)
Morristown, TN
66, joined Aug. 2010


Quote from louie6332:
Tnt, you say: “Because of all the people that have been viciously mutilated and murdered by the Catholic Church throughout the Church's history it indicates/shows that the Catholic Church is more likely to be an offspring of Satan and his demons than to be associated with the Blessed Yahweh.”

Tnt, you are repeating false witness against the Church established by Jesus Christ. The Church, down through history has been the victim of those who wanted to persecute and murder Christians. You are turning this on its head. After the Revolution swept throughout the Roman Catholic Church with the Second Vatican Council it did bear bad fruit, because the illuminati took over the Throne of Peter, but God allowed that in order to separate the sheep from the goats, the chaff from the wheat—that is what the Apocalypse is all about. Satan had asked God for permission great power and more time to try all men on Earth and to try to destroy the Church. God granted this in order to separate the sheep from the goats. Satan was granted approximately a century and much greater power, but only over those who submit to him and serve him, but he was warned that if he failed to accomplish his goal in the allotted time, that he would suffer a crushing and humiliating defeat by the hand of a Holy Virgin.. The revolution in the Church and the corruption in the Church that was the result of it were all foretold ahead of time so that faithful Catholics might not be taken by surprise. And the outcome of it was also foretold so that faithful Catholics might not lose heart.

It is foretold that Satan was fail to accomplish his goal in the allotted time, although he would come close. He would conquer the whole world during the Third World War. But then, having run out of time, Mary would intervene at the head of the Armies of Heaven, crush the head of Satan, raise the Church up from its grave, and restore all things in Christ. The Revolution in the Church would then be overthrown and the Church restored to its original mission and doctrine during the last and greatest council of the Church. All plantings not put down by the heavenly Father will then be uprooted, and the whole world would then be evangelized, and after twenty years the Great Pope would announce the conversion of the whole world to the resurrected and renewed Roman Catholic Church except for the Jews, who are reserved for the End Time. There will then be unity among the workers in Christ, and there will no longer be Protestants, Pagans, and Atheists. Protestants, seeing the intervention of God in its behalf will rejoin the Church, and so will the Orthodox. God will then grant thirty to thirty four years of peace to the world (afterwards, the peace will end and the Antichrist will arise and lead the second and last world revolution of the Apocalypse. This is all foretold.

Louie


Louie: It is really difficult for me to believe that the Catholic Church was first started by Yeshua. The reason it is difficult for me to believe it is because of all the innocent men, women and children that have been mutilated and murdered by the hand of the Catholic Church. I can't see how a person or group of people could claim that they are being led by Yahweh when they are doing so much damage to helpless and innocent people. Murdering, mutilating and raping are three of the worst crimes I can imagine. It is more than difficult for me to think Yeshua would be associated in the least way with a church or group of people that have been responsible for such heinous crimes against mankind. I very well know that there can be a few rotten apples even in a good organization but those responsible for such crimes should be rooted out and punished. I have seen a lot of covering up by the Catholic Church of the mean spirited and evil deeds of those that commit such crimes. The current Pope Francis often says things that to me are somewhat shocking and to think a person of his standing and stature would stoop so low to make the unnecessary comments that often makes.

I don't read in the Bible that Yeshua started any churches. It is my view that the Catholic Church follows the same doctrine that Paul followed. I have always thought that it must have been Paul instead of Peter that was the first Pope of the Catholic Church. I am sure everyone is well aware of what I think about Paul. I honestly don't see very much good coming from an organization or group of people that follows the lawless teachings of Paul.

Louie: It is my opinion that you are sincerely honest in your search for truth. Sometimes I get the feeling that you may be overlooking some of the evil deeds/problems of the Catholic Church just because you have committed yourself to them and may feel like you would be betraying them if you left them. I left the Baptist Church years ago and for quite a while I felt like I had betrayed my church but now I feel that my church betrayed me by not teaching the truth of Yahweh's Word.

Steve

5/5/2016 5:49:06 PM The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!  

ludlowlowell
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (27,800)
Panama City, FL
63, joined Feb. 2008


Where did you get your 50% figure, FJO?

5/5/2016 5:53:58 PM The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!  

ludlowlowell
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (27,800)
Panama City, FL
63, joined Feb. 2008


According to the book "Pedophiles and Priests" by Philip Jenkins, about 400 out of 50,000 American priests have been accused of sexual misconduct with minors---less than one percent.



[Edited 5/5/2016 5:54:43 PM ]

5/5/2016 6:41:33 PM The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!  

followjesusonly
Over 7,500 Posts!! (8,997)
Kingman, AZ
73, joined May. 2012


Quote from ludlowlowell:
According to the book "Pedophiles and Priests" by Philip Jenkins, about 400 out of 50,000 American priests have been accused of sexual misconduct with minors---less than one percent.


Lots of crimes go unreported.

5/5/2016 7:34:59 PM The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!  

ludlowlowell
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (27,800)
Panama City, FL
63, joined Feb. 2008


So where do you get your 50% figure, FJO?

5/5/2016 7:36:45 PM The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!  

tnteacher101
Over 4,000 Posts! (4,039)
Morristown, TN
66, joined Aug. 2010


Quote from followjesusonly:
Lots of crimes go unreported.


Low: It is a well known fact that the Catholic Church often covers up sexual crimes committed by the Priest and others working in the Catholic Church. There are few crimes that are worse than adults sexually abusing children.

Low: I bet you could tell us some stories about Catholic Priest sexual abuse of children that would cause the hair on the back of our necks/shoulders to stand up.

Steve

5/5/2016 8:14:02 PM The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!  

ludlowlowell
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (27,800)
Panama City, FL
63, joined Feb. 2008


Right off I can think of two, maybe three. One of them was dealing drugs, not sure if he was having sex with teenage boys or not. In the other two cases the sex was with teenagers, not children, bad wnough, but not quite the same thing. In my Methodist days I knew a youth minister who was removed for something, they never said exactly what it was.

I would still like to know where FJO gets his 50% figure.

5/5/2016 8:27:24 PM The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!  

followjesusonly
Over 7,500 Posts!! (8,997)
Kingman, AZ
73, joined May. 2012


Quote from ludlowlowell:
Right off I can think of two, maybe three. One of them was dealing drugs, not sure if he was having sex with teenage boys or not. In the other two cases the sex was with teenagers, not children, bad wnough, but not quite the same thing. In my Methodist days I knew a youth minister who was removed for something, they never said exactly what it was.

I would still like to know where FJO gets his 50% figure.


I just made it up like the way you make stuff up. If you can say there is no salvation outside of your church, I can say that 80% of priests are queer or pedophilic. It's a free-for-all, facts be damned, just make stuff up. You do it all the time. Almost everything you say is made up, either by you directly, or by your church.

The Washington Post:

“the percentage of accused priests is approaching 10 percent.” (see below)

And that's just the "accused." Many crimes go underreported and unreported.

Some say pope’s reported claim that 2 percent of priests are pedophiles is too low

Pope Francis delivers a speech in Isernia, Italy, on July 5 as part of a one day visit in the Molise region. Last week, the pope met with several people who say they were sexually abused by priests. (Alberto Pizzoli/AFP/Getty Images)
By Michelle Boorstein July 14, 2014
Another news-making Pope Francis interview, another round of unanswered questions. This time, the topic is clergy sex abuse.

In an interview published Sunday in the Italian daily La Repubblica, the pope talks with the newspaper’s founder, atheist Eugenio Scalfari, about the “leprosy” of pedophilia. The article quotes the pope as saying about 2 percent of Catholic priests are pedophiles, but it doesn’t have Francis citing a source and the figure appears to come up in a conversational way. This is the third interview between the two men since Francis took office last year.

“Many of my collaborators who fight with me (against pedophilia) reassure me with reliable statistics that say that the level of pedophilia in the Church is at about 2 percent,” Francis was quoted as saying, according to a translation by Reuters.

“This data should hearten me, but I have to tell you that it does not hearten me at all. In fact, I think that it is very grave,” he was quoted as saying.

Vatican communications officials later released statements about the article that didn’t dispute the figure and had more of a promotional tone. But they also sought — without specifics on the percentage — to raise general questions about the precision of the article.

[Read: Did Pope Francis really tell a 90-year-old atheist journalist that 1 in 50 priests are pedophiles — in an unrecorded ‘interview’?]

One e-mail to reporters, by the Rev. Thomas Rosica, who does English press for the Vatican, called the conversation “open-hearted.”

Another, from Vatican spokesman the Rev. Federico Lombardi, said: “The conversation was very cordial and most interesting. However, as it happened in a previous, similar circumstance, it is important to notice that the words that Mr. Scalfari attributes to the Pope, ‘in quotations’ come from the expert journalist Scalfari’s own memory of what the Pope said and is not an exact transcription of a recording nor a review of such a transcript by the Pope himself to whom the words are attributed.

“We should not or must not speak in any way, shape or form of an interview in the normal use of the word, as if there had been a series of questions and answers that faithfully and exactly reflect the precise thoughts of the one being interviewed.”

Requests to reach Scalfari and Lombardi for clarification were not immediately successful.

The question of the percentage of pedophiles in the priesthood is not easily answered, even in the United States, where bishops release some data on surveys and survivors have collected significant information over the years through litigation. Figures vary among church leaders and outside analysts. The question in most other parts of the world, particularly in developing countries, seems completely unanswered.

However, survivor advocates said 2 percent sounds low.

In a 2004, a report released by John Jay College of Criminal Justice, which worked with the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, said 4 percent of priests and deacons between 1950 and 2002 were accused of sexually abusing a minor.

Bishop-accountability.org, a Web site that publishes public information about accused priests and their cases, notes that some U.S. dioceses don’t submit regular reports to bishops on such cases. The group alleges that in dioceses where greater information was made available, either by choice or because of litigation, “the percentage of accused priests is approaching 10 percent.”

Anne Barrett Doyle of bishop-accountability.org, said the figure — however it was said — is “extremely low, it’s wrong.” She noted that Francis met last week with several European victims — his first such meeting — survivors from the developing world, including Latin America, were excluded.

“I think what this reflects is this pope’s lingering containment strategy. .?.?. I think he’s continuing to minimize the problem.”