The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!

5/5/2016 8:59:59 PM	The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!
tnteacher101 Morristown, TN 66, joined Aug. 2010	Quote from ludlowlowell: Right off I can think of two, maybe three. One of them was dealing drugs, not sure if he was having sex with teenage boys or not. In the other two cases the sex was with teenagers, not children, bad wnough, but not quite the same thing. In my Methodist days I knew a youth minister who was removed for something, they never said exactly what it was. I would still like to know where FJO gets his 50% figure. Low: Your former Methodist Church is to be commended for removing the youth minister from a position that he was more than likely should not have had in the first place. It was also probably good that your church did not disclose what the youth minister had said that got him removed from that position. Those words could have followed the youth minister for the rest of his life and done terrible damage to his reputation. If the youth minister had actually sexually abused a child then the abuser needed to go to jail and I am sure that is what your church would have pushed for instead of covering it up the crime like some churches do. Steve Meet singles at DateHookup.dating, we're 100% free! Join now!
5/5/2016 9:49:18 PM	The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!
tnteacher101 Morristown, TN 66, joined Aug. 2010	Louie and Low: I guess the very reason I have a distrust and disdain of the Catholic Church is not only because of the millions upon million of mutilations, murders and child sex crimes they are responsible for but because they follow the teachings of the lawless Paul almost to the letter and ignore, for the most part, the Blessed Teachings of Moses, the Prophets, Yeshua and the true 12 Apostles. The Catholic Church follow the heathen teachings of Paul so closely that it is difficult for me to believe that their first Pope was not Paul. Simon Magnus, the sorcerer, is sometimes named/credited as being the first Pope and Simon appears to fit the position and fit it very well. So, I would think that the first Pope was either Paul or Simon Magnus since both were more than shady and lawless characters. Because the Catholic Church does not follow the teachings of the true Patriarchs of the Bible it is more than difficult for me to think that Peter was anywhere close to being the first Pope of the Catholic Church. When I read about Peter in the Bible I see no similar beliefs between Peter and the Catholic Church. It is only proper and fitting to think that the first Pope of the Catholic Church and the beliefs of the Catholic Church would line up and be in agreement. In the Bible Paul is said to go to Rome after he was rejected by the people of the churches in Asia but nowhere in the Bible does it say or insinuate that Peter went anyplace close to Rome. These are my reasons for having a distrust for the Catholic Churches. If, on the other hand the Catholic Church followed and always had followed the teachings of Moses, the Prophets, Yeshua and the true 12 Apostles then my opinion would be that Peter was indeed the first Pope of the Catholic Church since Peter and the Catholic Church would have similar/common beliefs. I am not saying this to be mean or difficult, I am only saying it because that is the way it appears to be. Something either fits or does not fit and this seems to fit perfectly. Steve
5/5/2016 10:40:31 PM	The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!
kb2222 Jacksonville, FL 75, joined Apr. 2011	Steve, you keep talking abut the "Blessed Teachings of Moses, the Prophets, Yeshua and the true 12 Apostles" and not one of them taught that people should be stoned and burned to death at the stake for all these reasons. Are you just to mentally ill and/or corrupt that you can't understand this? Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT) Kill Witches (Exodus 22:17 NAB) Kill Homosexuals (Leviticus 20:13 NAB) Kill Fortunetellers (Leviticus 20:27 NAB) Death for Hitting Dad (Exodus 21:15 NAB) Death for Cursing Parents (Proverbs 20:20 NAB, Leviticus 20:9 NLT) Death for Adultery (Leviticus 20:10 NLT) Death for Fornication (Leviticus 21:9 NAB) Death to Followers of Other Religions (Exodus 22:19 NAB) Kill Nonbelievers (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB) Kill False Prophets (Zechariah 13:3 NAB) Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God (Deuteronomy 13:13-18 NLT) Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB) Kill Followers of Other Religions. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB, Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT) Death for Blasphemy (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT) Kill False Prophets (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT, Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT) Infidels and Gays Should Die (Romans 1:24-32 NLT) Kill Anyone who Approaches the Tabernacle (Numbers 1:48-51 NLT) Kill People for Working on the Sabbath (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT) Kill Sons of Sinners (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)
5/5/2016 11:37:55 PM	The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!
tnteacher101 Morristown, TN 66, joined Aug. 2010	Quote from kb2222: Steve, you keep talking abut the "Blessed Teachings of Moses, the Prophets, Yeshua and the true 12 Apostles" and not one of them taught that people should be stoned and burned to death at the stake for all these reasons. Are you just to mentally ill and/or corrupt that you can't understand this? Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT) Kill Witches (Exodus 22:17 NAB) Kill Homosexuals (Leviticus 20:13 NAB) Kill Fortunetellers (Leviticus 20:27 NAB) Death for Hitting Dad (Exodus 21:15 NAB) Death for Cursing Parents (Proverbs 20:20 NAB, Leviticus 20:9 NLT) Death for Adultery (Leviticus 20:10 NLT) Death for Fornication (Leviticus 21:9 NAB) Death to Followers of Other Religions (Exodus 22:19 NAB) Kill Nonbelievers (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB) Kill False Prophets (Zechariah 13:3 NAB) Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God (Deuteronomy 13:13-18 NLT) Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB) Kill Followers of Other Religions. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB, Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT) Death for Blasphemy (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT) Kill False Prophets (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT, Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT) Infidels and Gays Should Die (Romans 1:24-32 NLT) Kill Anyone who Approaches the Tabernacle (Numbers 1:48-51 NLT) Kill People for Working on the Sabbath (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT) Kill Sons of Sinners (Isaiah 14:21 NAB) KB: I have explained to you all along that no one today is to be stoned for the reasons you listed above. At one time when Yahweh was the King of Israel sometimes Yahweh ordered people to be stoned to death for breaking some of His Laws/Torah and Commandments. The 12 Tribes of Jacob asked for a human King and Yahweh allowed them to have a human Kings. Their first King of Israel was Saul and Saul had laws and he enforced those laws. If you will notice Yeshua did not stone anyone or order anyone to be stoned so the stonings ceased long before Yeshua was living on this Earth in the Flesh Body. The list you have above are sins and some are much worse sins than others but they do not warrant the death penalty. It is my belief that anyone that murderers should be put to death. The Bible tells us that anyone that murders is to be put to death by the hand of man. The Bible also gives the punishment of death for a rapist. Genesis 9:6 ESV Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed, for God made man in his own image. Leviticus 24:17 ESV Whoever takes a human life shall surely be put to death. Deuteronomy 22:25-29 But if in the field the man finds the girl who is engaged, and the man forces her and lies with her, then only the man who lies with her shall die. But you shall do nothing to the girl; there is no sin in the girl worthy of death, for just as a man rises against his neighbor and murders him, so is this case. "When he found her in the field, the engaged girl cried out, but there was no one to save her. Steve
5/6/2016 8:39:34 AM	The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!
kb2222 Jacksonville, FL 75, joined Apr. 2011	Quote from tnteacher101: KB: I have explained to you all along that no one today is to be stoned for the reasons you listed above. No you haven't you mentally ill idiot. You have advocated time and time again that all those laws are still in effect and that people should still be killed for those reasons to "please" God. At one time when Yahweh was the King of Israel sometimes Yahweh ordered people to be stoned to death for breaking some of His Laws/Torah and Commandments. The 12 Tribes of Jacob asked for a human King and Yahweh allowed them to have a human Kings. Their first King of Israel was Saul and Saul had laws and he enforced those laws. If you will notice Yeshua did not stone anyone or order anyone to be stoned so the stonings ceased long before Yeshua was living on this Earth in the Flesh Body. You are just making crap up. You don't know when the stoning's stopped and you can't show where "Moses, the Prophets, Yeshua and the true 12 Apostles" ever ordered such stoning's. The list you have above are sins and some are much worse sins than others but they do not warrant the death penalty. That's what you say now but for the past few years you have been saying all of these murderous laws are still in effect and you have advocated that people be killed for these reasons to "please" God. In fact, just yesterday in your post 5/5/2016 9:51:02 PM on the thread "What parts of Torah can we still keep today?" you said..."We as readers of the Bible are supposed to be sharp enough to know that those Laws are still in effect." You are clearly one mentally sick dude, Steve.
5/6/2016 11:14:08 AM	The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 63, joined Feb. 2008	All mortal sins rate the death penalty---the spiritual death of Hell forever.
5/6/2016 11:36:57 AM	The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!
kb2222 Jacksonville, FL 75, joined Apr. 2011	Blasphemy is a sin, Ludlow. You are so corrupt all you can do is spew lies, Ludlow. You have made yourself into a disciple of Satan and you shall have your reward and if you think it is wimpy if Jesus instead of sending you to a place of eternal torment - you simply cease to exist as a spiritual reality you are a utter and complete fool.
5/6/2016 1:52:55 PM	The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!
followjesusonly Kingman, AZ 73, joined May. 2012	Quote from ludlowlowell: All mortal sins rate the death penalty---the spiritual death of Hell forever. There is no Hell, Lud. Even your religion has left it out of their New American Bible. The fact that you still insist there is a Hell is a measure of how willfully obtuse you are. Can willfully obtuse people be trusted about anything they say?
5/6/2016 5:19:47 PM	The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!
tnteacher101 Morristown, TN 66, joined Aug. 2010	Quote from followjesusonly: There is no Hell, Lud. Even your religion has left it out of their New American Bible. The fact that you still insist there is a Hell is a measure of how willfully obtuse you are. Can willfully obtuse people be trusted about anything they say? Furch: Did you get the belief that there is no hell from reading Yahweh's Bible or from reading the more than strange Urantia Book? We need to get to the bottom of why you think there is no hades/hell. Steve
5/6/2016 9:08:26 PM	The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!
kb2222 Jacksonville, FL 75, joined Apr. 2011	Quote from tnteacher101: Furch: Did you get the belief that there is no hell from reading Yahweh's Bible or from reading the more than strange Urantia Book? We need to get to the bottom of why you think there is no hades/hell. Steve Why don't you cut out the crap and for once honestly respond to my post 5/6/2016 9:39:34 AM?
5/6/2016 9:48:19 PM	The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!
tnteacher101 Morristown, TN 66, joined Aug. 2010	Quote from kb2222: Why don't you cut out the crap and for once honestly respond to my post 5/6/2016 9:39:34 AM? KB: I have answered all of your questions over and over again. You may want to scroll back and take a look at them again. Plz read them slowly this time so you will finally realize and hopefully remember that I have answered your questions. You never answer my questions. I assume you are ashamed to answer them. Steve
5/6/2016 9:50:46 PM	The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!
kb2222 Jacksonville, FL 75, joined Apr. 2011	Quote from tnteacher101: KB: I have answered all of your questions over and over again. You may want to scroll back and take a look at them again. Plz read them slowly this time so you will finally realize and hopefully remember that I have answered your questions. You never answer my questions. I assume you are ashamed to answer them. Steve Why don't you cut out the LYING crap and for once honestly respond to my post 5/6/2016 9:39:34 AM?
5/7/2016 7:05:59 PM	The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!
louie6332 Falkville, AL 74, joined Nov. 2011	Tnt, it was pointed out in one thread on the subject that the Urantia Book does not deny that there is a Hell. And the Urantia Book promoters here were not able to disprove that. All they had to do was pull up a passage from the Urantia Book that said there is no Hell and post it. But they did not. They believe there is no Hell simply because they do not want to believe it. They cannot accept a God who rewards the Just and punishes the wicked. In their minds, Justice is evil and wicked. Louie
5/7/2016 7:25:55 PM	The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!
louie6332 Falkville, AL 74, joined Nov. 2011	Tnt, reference your second post on this page (pg 189), you say: “If the Catholic Church followed and had always followed the teachings of Moses, the Prophets, Yeshua and the true 12 Apostles then my opinion would be that Peter was indeed the first Pope of the Catholic Church since Peter and the Catholic Church would have similar/common beliefs.” Tnt, you are talking about imposing the Levitical law on Gentile Christians here. Do you believe, TNT, that Christ had the authority to appoint Peter his prime minister in his absence, to build his Church on him, to hand him the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven, and to give him the power to bind and to loose? It all boils down to that. Since you do not believe that Christ had this power, then nothing can ever be said to convince you that Peter is the visible head of the Church in Christ’s absence. The Catholic Church, by the way, has never followed the doctrine, attributed by Martin Luther to Paul, that Christ has done everything, and that one need do nothing for their own salvation but accept it as a free gift (otherwise known as salvation by faith, defined as simple belief, or more simply as salvation by simple believism). That is a Protestant doctrine, not a Catholic doctrine. The Catholic Church has always taught that one is saved, not by faith alone, but by the PRACTICE of faith. Louie
5/7/2016 7:42:19 PM	The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!
followjesusonly Kingman, AZ 73, joined May. 2012	Quote from louie6332: Tnt, it was pointed out in one thread on the subject that the Urantia Book does not deny that there is a Hell. And the Urantia Book promoters here were not able to disprove that. All they had to do was pull up a passage from the Urantia Book that said there is no Hell and post it. But they did not. They believe there is no Hell simply because they do not want to believe it. They cannot accept a God who rewards the Just and punishes the wicked. In their minds, Justice is evil and wicked. Louie Interesting. Louie is so in and out that you can't be sure if he's speaking the facts. I don't remember the thread Louie is talking about. However, I just checked and the word "Hell," capitalized, is not in The Urantia Book. No, The Urantia Book does not deny there is a Hell any more than it denies there are Unicorns or Spagetti Monsters. Why should The Urantia Book have to deny something false that Louie believes in? Why should The Urantia Book have to deny things that don't exist? But The Urantia Book is clear: "The greatest punishment (in reality an inevitable consequence) for wrongdoing and deliberate rebellion against the government of God is loss of existence as an individual subject of that government. The final result of wholehearted sin is annihilation. In the last analysis, such sin-identified individuals have destroyed themselves by becoming wholly unreal through their embrace of iniquity." In other words, "The wages of sin is death." Romans 6:23
5/7/2016 7:50:30 PM	The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!
followjesusonly Kingman, AZ 73, joined May. 2012	Quote from louie6332: Tnt, reference your second post on this page (pg 189), you say: “If the Catholic Church followed and had always followed the teachings of Moses, the Prophets, Yeshua and the true 12 Apostles then my opinion would be that Peter was indeed the first Pope of the Catholic Church since Peter and the Catholic Church would have similar/common beliefs.” Tnt, you are talking about imposing the Levitical law on Gentile Christians here. Do you believe, TNT, that Christ had the authority to appoint Peter his prime minister in his absence, to build his Church on him, to hand him the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven, and to give him the power to bind and to loose? It all boils down to that. Since you do not believe that Christ had this power, then nothing can ever be said to convince you that Peter is the visible head of the Church in Christ’s absence. The Catholic Church, by the way, has never followed the doctrine, attributed by Martin Luther to Paul, that Christ has done everything, and that one need do nothing for their own salvation but accept it as a free gift (otherwise known as salvation by faith, defined as simple belief, or more simply as salvation by simple believism). That is a Protestant doctrine, not a Catholic doctrine. The Catholic Church has always taught that one is saved, not by faith alone, but by the PRACTICE of faith. Louie But Louie, what about what Jesus taught? Luke 10:25 ...Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? Luke 10:26 [Jesus] said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? Luke 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. Luke 10:28 And [Jesus] said unto him, "Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live." Louie, have you ever considered putting what Jesus taught above what you say "the Catholic church has always taught"? Would that be too big of a jump for you to make, putting Jesus first ahead of your church? It's too big for Ludlow. How about you, Louie? And Louie, you wrote to TNT: Do you believe, TNT, that Christ had the authority to appoint Peter his prime minister in his absence, to build his Church on him, to hand him the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven, and to give him the power to bind and to loose? It all boils down to that. Your question is flawed, Louie. Of course "Christ" had the authority. That's not the question. The real question is, DID "Christ" do what you say He did? And the answer to that is no, Christ did not appoint Peter his prime minister in his absence, to build his Church on him, to hand him the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven, and to give him the power to bind and to loose. Christ did not do that, Louie.
5/7/2016 8:44:08 PM	The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!
followjesusonly Kingman, AZ 73, joined May. 2012	* PS, LOUIE. It looks like Ludlow has finally blocked me. Apparently he no longer wants to hear that Jesus says he, Ludlow, does not love God because he, Ludlow, refuses to obey God: "If a man love me, he will keep my words."(John 14:23) "He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings." (John 14:24) But you don't love God enough to obey Him either, do you Louie? Every time you call a priest, "Father," you give Jesus the finger. "Call no man your father upon the earth: "for one is your Father, which is in heaven." (Matthew 23:9) "Why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?" (Luke 6:46) “Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.” (Mark 7:9) And the word which you have heard, is not mine; but the Father's who sent me." (John 14:24) Anyway, because he's blocked me, I won't be able to respond to you on his threads, such as: The closer we get to Mary, the closer we get to Jesus. So if you have any Urantia Book issues you want to talk about, it'll have to be not on Ludlow's threads.
5/7/2016 8:47:39 PM	The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!
followjesusonly Kingman, AZ 73, joined May. 2012	* On another thread Ludlow said: "I'm not saying the dates were revealed by God, but God backs up the Church. If the Church is happy celebrating Jesus' birthday on Dec. 25, God is happy with it. If the pope changed the day to May 7 or Feb. 10 or June 30, God would be happy with that---whatever the Church binds on earth, God binds in Heaven, and whatever the Church looses on earth, God looses in Heaven (Matthew 16:19)." But Matthew 16:19 doesn't even mention "the church."
5/8/2016 12:43:58 AM	The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!
tnteacher101 Morristown, TN 66, joined Aug. 2010	Quote from louie6332: Tnt, reference your second post on this page (pg 189), you say: “If the Catholic Church followed and had always followed the teachings of Moses, the Prophets, Yeshua and the true 12 Apostles then my opinion would be that Peter was indeed the first Pope of the Catholic Church since Peter and the Catholic Church would have similar/common beliefs.” Tnt, you are talking about imposing the Levitical law on Gentile Christians here. Do you believe, TNT, that Christ had the authority to appoint Peter his prime minister in his absence, to build his Church on him, to hand him the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven, and to give him the power to bind and to loose? It all boils down to that. Since you do not believe that Christ had this power, then nothing can ever be said to convince you that Peter is the visible head of the Church in Christ’s absence. The Catholic Church, by the way, has never followed the doctrine, attributed by Martin Luther to Paul, that Christ has done everything, and that one need do nothing for their own salvation but accept it as a free gift (otherwise known as salvation by faith, defined as simple belief, or more simply as salvation by simple believism). That is a Protestant doctrine, not a Catholic doctrine. The Catholic Church has always taught that one is saved, not by faith alone, but by the PRACTICE of faith. Louie Louie: I will go along with your view that Peter had the power to bind and to loose while living on the Earth but that power was given to the other 11 Apostles as well. The binding and loosing ended with the death of those 12 Apostles and it was not passed down to the Roman Catholic Priests or anyone else as the Catholic Church teaches. Peter was the "Stone" and Yeshua was the "Rock" so Peter had absolutely no authority to change the Sabbath to another day of the week. Peter had no authority to change any of Yahweh's Laws/Torah or Commands. If Peter had had that authority he would not have used it anyway because the day of rest/worship was given in Genesis and the day of rest/worship was to go to the end of this Earth Age. The power and authority you and Low say that the Catholic Church has to do as they wish is based of a false understanding of the Bible. The Catholic Church bases their entire existence on Matthew 16:18 and if we take this one misunderstood verse away from the Catholic Church then the entire foundation and the very existence of the Catholic Church falls flat on its face. Matthew 16:18 King James Bible And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. If you will notice when reading the Bible, Peter was called the "Stone" and Yeshua was always called the "Rock". When Yeshua said upon this Rock I will build my Church Yeshua was referring to himself. When the Bible talks about Yahweh's "Will" and Yeshua as being the "Word" and when the Bible talks about Yahweh's Commands, Laws, and Statutes it is talking about Yahweh's Laws/Torah and Commands. Yahweh's Laws/Torah and Commands are in full effect today just like they were in effect in what some call the Old Testament. The Old Testament was the only Bible that was available when Yeshua lived on this Earth and it was the Bible that Yeshua used, read from and taught from. If there had been a problem with it then I am sure Yeshua would have warned us but He gave no warning so we must assume it is good as it was handed down to us. What we now call the New Testament was written after Yeshua died on the Cross so Yeshua never, ever, approved of the New Testament. Yeshua plainly said He did not come to do away with one jot or tittle of Yahweh's Laws/Torah and Commands. Moses, the Prophets, Yeshua and the true 12 Apostles also taught that Yahweh's Laws/Torah and Commands were in effect. Yeshua and the true 12 Apostles obeyed Yahweh's Laws/Torah and Commands and after Yeshua died on the Cross the true 12 Apostles continued to obey Yahweh's Laws/Torah and Commands. So Yahweh's Laws/Torah and Commands were never, ever, done away with like the lawless murderer, tare and false apostle Paul claimed and falsely taught. The wayward Catholic Church perfectly, for the most part, follows the lawless teachings of the heathen and heretic Paul and this goes against all of the teachings of Yahweh. It also goes against the teachings of Moses, the Patriarchs, Yeshua and the true 12 Apostles. Paul is the god of the Catholic Church and is the god of most people that call themselves Christians today. Instead of following the teachings of Yahweh/Yeshua they are following the lawless teachings of the renegade Paul so they are merely Paulinians and certainly not Christians because they do not follow the teachings of Yeshua. If the God of the Catholic Church was actually Yahweh then the fruit of the Catholic Church would have been blessed and good. But, as I have pointed out in some of my other posts the fruit of the Catholic Church has been murders, mutilations, rapes and child sexual abuses. The Bible plainly tells us that we will know a tree by the fruit it produces and throughout the entire history of the Catholic Church their fruit has been wicked, evil and bitter. The fruit of the Catholic Church has simply been what most people would expect from the evil one that is often called lucifer/satan/deceiver/dragon/beelzebub. Steve
5/8/2016 12:58:44 AM	The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 63, joined Feb. 2008	The Catholic Church has produced schools, hospitals, and saints.
5/8/2016 2:25:42 AM	The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!
followjesusonly Kingman, AZ 73, joined May. 2012	Maybe I'm not reading this right but I don't think Louie said that Peter had the power, but rather did Jesus have the authority to give Peter the power? Sure, Jesus had the authority, but He didn't do it. Here's what Louie is asking, copied and pasted: "Do you believe, TNT, that Christ had the authority to appoint Peter...blah, blah?" Quote from tnteacher101: Louie: I will go along with your view that Peter had the power... Matthew 16:18 King James Bible And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. If you will notice when reading the Bible, Peter was called the "Stone" and Yeshua was always called the "Rock". When Yeshua said upon this Rock I will build my Church Yeshua was referring to himself. Could be, but probably not. Probably, the "rock" was the spiritual truth that had been revealed to the apostles in the previous verse Mt 16:17 where Jesus says: "for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven." That "revelation" by the Father was the rock of spiritual reality that Jesus would build his church upon. If the God of the Catholic Church was actually Yahweh then the fruit of the Catholic Church would have been blessed and good. But, as I have pointed out in some of my other posts the fruit of the Catholic Church has been murders, mutilations, rapes and child sexual abuses. The Bible plainly tells us that we will know a tree by the fruit it produces and throughout the entire history of the Catholic Church their fruit has been wicked, evil and bitter. The fruit of the Catholic Church has simply been what most people would expect from the evil one that is often called lucifer/satan/deceiver/dragon/beelzebub. Steve That's good. I agree. However, I would like to point out, fwiw, that Lucifer, Satan, and Beelzebub and "The Devil" are all different personalities. Otherwise, it's like saying that Obama and Kerry (the Sec of State) and the local Ag agent for the USDA are all the same. It's not that simple here and it's not that simple in God's universe. You can read about Lucifer, Satan, and Beelzebub and The Devil in The Urantia Book if you want to know more about them.
5/8/2016 10:28:48 AM	The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!
kb2222 Jacksonville, FL 75, joined Apr. 2011	*On another thread Ludlow said: Quote from ludlowlowell: But, KB, it is an historical vfact that Jesus founded the Catholic Church and promised to stay with it until the end of time. That's the corrupt doctrine of the Catholic Church. Jesus chose Peter because Peter evidenced contact with the Holy Spirit when he said who Jesus was and it is the Holy Spirit that is the "rock" which the gates of hell will not prevail and that includes the corrupt teachings of the Catholic church with its Popes requiring they be addressed as "Holy Father" and claiming moral and spiritual infallibly no matter how many of their brethren they have in the past horribly tortured and burnt to death at the stake calling them witches and heretics. It is an historical fact that eight Catholic bishops, namely Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Peter, James, and Jude, wrote the New Testament. They were not Catholic bishops. They were Apostles and there are many contradictions in their supposed writings. Especially in Paul's theology whos writings comprise about 2/3 of the NT. The "gospel" or "good news" that Jesus went about the countryside proclaiming was NOT that He had come to die for the sins of man to appease an angry God which is the substance of Paul's atonement doctrine. Jesus came proclaiming to "bear witness unto the truth" about God and He taught the Fatherhood of God and the Brotherhood of man and that we should love and serve one another. Jesus taught God is a God of Love, Truth and Righteousness Not a blood thirst angry God unwilling to forgive man for sin until the blood of the innocent has been offered up in a horrible fashion. And it is an historical fact that that same Catholic Church put the Bible together, deciding which books would go in and which ones not, at the Council of Hippo, in the year 393 a.d. That's right it was the Catholic church that put the Bible together NOT God. And many of these early church leaders (Popes) and their successors went on horribly torturing and burning their brethren to death at the stake if they didn't abide by church dictates from that time forward up until the early 18th century which clearly shows the depth of the Catholic churches immorality and spiritual wickedness.
5/8/2016 2:06:23 PM	The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!
followjesusonly Kingman, AZ 73, joined May. 2012	On another thread Ludlow said: Quote from ludlowlowell: But, KB, it is an historical vfact that Jesus founded the Catholic Church and promised to stay with it until the end of time. It is not. The verse in question does not mention the Catholic church or any church* and does not say "until the end of time," about which Ludlow has been repeatedly corrected. It is an historical fact that eight Catholic bishops, namely Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Peter, James, and Jude, wrote the New Testament. It is not.
5/8/2016 4:29:08 PM	The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 63, joined Feb. 2008	John 10:11 shows that Jesus did say He was laying down His life for us. Looks like you're mistake here, KB.
5/8/2016 4:35:42 PM	The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 63, joined Feb. 2008	Acts 1:20 says, in relation to choosing an apostle, "let another his bishoprick take" (KJV), clearly showing us that the apostles were the first bishops of the Church. So Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, James, Paul, Peter, and Jude were bishops after all. Looks like you're mistaken about this one also, KB. (True, Mark and Luke were not apostles, but we know from extra-biblical historical sources that Mark and Luke were bishops---Mark was the first Christian bishop of the then major city of Alexandria, Egypt.)
5/8/2016 11:32:28 PM	The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!
followjesusonly Kingman, AZ 73, joined May. 2012	* John 10:11 shows that Jesus did say He was laying down His life for us. Looks like you're mistake here, KB. ============================================================= John 10:11 does not say that, and it certainly does not say Jesus died for our sins. and Acts 1:20 does not mention any church. Nor are they the words of Jesus. And Jesus said there were to be no bishops and popes. Luk 22:25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors. Luk 22:26 But ye shall not be so:
5/9/2016 12:02:31 AM	The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!
tnteacher101 Morristown, TN 66, joined Aug. 2010	The Catholic Church exists because of false teachings of the Catholic Church. Yeshua did not belong to any church and did not start a church. Those that follow Yahweh's Laws/Torah and Commands make up Yahweh's true Church. Yeshua was the perfect example for us because He perfectly followed Yahweh's Laws/Torah and Commands. We are to follow the example that Yeshua set while He was living on this Earth. Catholics and most people that call themselves Christians today are followers of Paul because they do not follow Yahweh's Laws/Torah and Commands. Paul was a false god/antichrist and followers of the corrupt and heathen teachings of Paul is worthless and will only get people a ticket to hades/hell. If we want to go to Paradise/Heaven we must follow the teachings of Moses, the Prophets, Yeshua and the true 12 Apostles. Those Patriarchs of the Bible taught the truth of Yahweh's Word. Following anyone else besides those Blessed Patriarchs is a total waste of anyone's time unless they want to go to that more than warm place to spend eternity. This is easy for anyone to understand that has ears to hear and eyes to see. Steve
5/9/2016 12:06:43 AM	The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 63, joined Feb. 2008	If "Yeshua" (in English, Jesus) wasn't going to start a Church, why did He say to Simon Bar-jona, "...upon this rilock I will build my Church"? What part of Church is not Church?
5/9/2016 12:35:41 AM	The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!
tnteacher101 Morristown, TN 66, joined Aug. 2010	Quote from ludlowlowell: If "Yeshua" (in English, Jesus) wasn't going to start a Church, why did He say to Simon Bar-jona, "...upon this rilock I will build my Church"? What part of Church is not Church? Low: Like I have said before Peter was referred to as the "Stone". Yeshua was often referred to as the "Rock". So Matthew 16:18 was referring to Yeshua as being the "Rock" that the "Church" would be built upon. The followers, (the individual Believers), of Yahweh's Laws/Torah and Commands are the very people that make up Yahweh's Church. Yahweh's Church is not a building or a group of buildings but simply the followers of Yahweh's Laws/Torah and Commands. Acts 7:48 However, the Most High does not dwell in houses made by human hands; It was not until after Yeshua was Crucified that Paul started his churches in Asia. Yeshua never, ever, stressed building church houses, not even one time. The deceptive, heathen and lawless Paul was the very one that went around starting gentile churches and Paul did this without the command or consent of Yahweh/Yeshua. I know of nothing sacred about a church building and the verse above plainly says Yahweh does not dwell in houses/churches made by hands. Steve
5/9/2016 1:30:52 AM	The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 63, joined Feb. 2008	There are three issues associated with Matthew 16:18-19: 1. the papcy 2. Church authority (loosening and binding) 3. the founding of the Church On this thread we have been discussing issue #3. From Matthew 16:18-19 Jesus talks about building a Church. Rock? Stone? Petros? Petra? All of that has to do with the papacy, issue #1. How can anybody say Jesus wasn't founding a Church, when these two verses specifically say He was? If Jesus didn't found the Catholic Church then Henry Ford did not found Ford Motor Co. and Bill Gates did not found Microsoft.
5/9/2016 4:09:34 AM	The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!
followjesusonly Kingman, AZ 73, joined May. 2012	*(Ludlow) There are three issues associated with Matthew 16:18-19: 1. the papcy 2. Church authority (loosening and binding) 3. the founding of the Church On this thread we have been discussing issue #3. From Matthew 16:18-19 Jesus talks about building a Church. Rock? Stone? Petros? Petra? All of that has to do with the papacy, issue #1. How can anybody say Jesus wasn't founding a Church, when these two verses specifically say He was? If Jesus didn't found the Catholic Church then Henry Ford did not found Ford Motor Co. and Bill Gates did not found Microsoft. ========================================================== There is no "papcy" in the bible. And Jesus said there was NOT to be one. And no bishopricks either. Nothing in the three verses is "associated" with the "papcy" except in your imagination. The verses don't say "Church," they say church. The verses don't say "Roman Catholic church or Catholic anything. The "rock" is the spiritual reality that was revealed to the apostles, that Jesus was the Son of God. That's the rock that Jesus was building his spiritual brotherhood on. The "church" is the spiritual fellowship of all believers. It's not your institution. Here's what Jesus really said: “You are my chosen ambassadors, but I know that, in the circumstances, you could not entertain this belief as a result of mere human knowledge. This is a revelation of the spirit of my Father to your inmost souls. And when, therefore, you make this confession by the insight of the spirit of my Father which dwells within you, I am led to declare that upon this foundation will I build the brotherhood of the kingdom of heaven. Upon this rock of spiritual reality will I build the living temple of spiritual fellowship in the eternal realities of my Father’s kingdom. All the forces of evil and the hosts of sin shall not prevail against this human fraternity of the divine spirit. And while my Father’s spirit shall ever be the divine guide and mentor of all who enter the bonds of this spirit fellowship, to you and your successors I now deliver the keys of the outward kingdom—the authority over things temporal—the social and economic features of this association of men and women as fellows of the kingdom.” -The Urantia Book Why don't you ask a priest why they took "Hell" out of the Catholic bible? It's gone. Now you have to shop around for a translation with the verses you like.
5/9/2016 12:18:15 PM	The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!
tnteacher101 Morristown, TN 66, joined Aug. 2010	Quote from ludlowlowell: There are three issues associated with Matthew 16:18-19: 1. the papcy 2. Church authority (loosening and binding) 3. the founding of the Church On this thread we have been discussing issue #3. From Matthew 16:18-19 Jesus talks about building a Church. Rock? Stone? Petros? Petra? All of that has to do with the papacy, issue #1. How can anybody say Jesus wasn't founding a Church, when these two verses specifically say He was? If Jesus didn't found the Catholic Church then Henry Ford did not found Ford Motor Co. and Bill Gates did not found Microsoft. Low: Instead of attempting to follow Yahweh's Commands you are more concerned in trying to prove your Catholic Church is the only church and that is an impossible and worthless task. You need to channel your energy away from your false Catholic Church and start doing what the Patriarchs taught you and the rest of us to do and that is to follow Yahweh's Laws/Torah and Commands. You spend most of your time and energy in praising your church and spend almost no time pleasing Yahweh by doing what He teaches for you to do. You have simply make your church your god and have been ignoring Yahweh. You need to get your priorities straight. Steve
5/9/2016 1:32:52 PM	The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 63, joined Feb. 2008	God is far more interested in people eating His Body and drinking His Blood than He is in whether or not they eat pork.
5/9/2016 2:01:46 PM	The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!
tnteacher101 Morristown, TN 66, joined Aug. 2010	Quote from ludlowlowell: God is far more interested in people eating His Body and drinking His Blood than He is in whether or not they eat pork. Low: You are repeating the propaganda that the Catholic Church has been telling you for quite some time. A false church will lead the people following it in the wrong way/path. I have explained the Bible Truths in a way that a child should be able to understand and yet you don't appear to have the least clue. Your God should be Yahweh and not your miserable Catholic Church. Worshiping your church is worthless and will not get you to Paradise/Heaven. You need to wake up out of your deep trance before it is too late. It is my guess that your church is squeezing every penny they can get out of you because churches are in it simply for the money. The Bible tells us that we don't have to pay to hear Yahweh's Word taught. Steve
5/9/2016 2:27:01 PM	The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!
kb2222 Jacksonville, FL 75, joined Apr. 2011	Quote from ludlowlowell: God is far more interested in people eating His Body and drinking His Blood than He is in whether or not they eat pork. Pork may because of the negative charge of the pig blood platelet have a negative effect on the attaining of higher consciousness but the belief that Jesus was teaching cannibalism to His followers as a way to higher consciousness is utterly absurd. Especially when Jesus clearly said the words He spoke were spiritual and the flesh profit a man nothing. God is the bread of life and man partakes of it by embracing His spirit. [Edited 5/9/2016 2:27:58 PM ]
5/9/2016 2:32:24 PM	The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!
followjesusonly Kingman, AZ 73, joined May. 2012	Quote from tnteacher101: Low: You are repeating the propaganda that the Catholic Church has been telling you for quite some time. A false church will lead the people following it in the wrong way/path. I have explained the Bible Truths in a way that a child should be able to understand and yet you don't appear to have the least clue. Your God should be Yahweh and not your miserable Catholic Church. Worshiping your church is worthless and will not get you to Paradise/Heaven. You need to wake up out of your deep trance before it is too late. It is my guess that your church is squeezing every penny they can get out of you because churches are in it simply for the money. The Bible tells us that we don't have to pay to hear Yahweh's Word taught. Steve Lud is screwed because... "There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death." (Proverbs 14:12) Lud is in a death spiral. He doesn't love God enough to obey Him, and Lud himself says that God sends people to Hell who don't love Him.
5/9/2016 5:06:02 PM	The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!
tnteacher101 Morristown, TN 66, joined Aug. 2010	Quote from followjesusonly: Lud is screwed because... "There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death." (Proverbs 14:12) Lud is in a death spiral. He doesn't love God enough to obey Him, and Lud himself says that God sends people to Hell who don't love Him. Low: It appears that most everyone on this site thinks you are certainly headed to that more than warm place that most people don't want to eventually go to. Low posted: God is far more interested in people eating His Body and drinking His Blood than He is in whether or not they eat pork. Low: I have heard from several sources that say Yahweh's unclean animals listed in the Bible such as swine's flesh have a huge negative effect on some human organs. The organ it appears to effect the most is the human brain. I have been thinking all along that you may be having severe issues with your thinking process because of all that scavenger trash meat you have been carelessly boasting of eating. It appears to me that just a very small fraction of your brain cells are half way functioning. You need to keep in mind that I am doing my very best to help you and certainly never try to hurt/harm you in any way. Steve
5/9/2016 7:48:33 PM	The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 63, joined Feb. 2008	My chiropractor told me that pork is no more harmful than beef.
5/9/2016 9:30:44 PM	The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!
kb2222 Jacksonville, FL 75, joined Apr. 2011	Quote from ludlowlowell: My chiropractor told me that pork is no more harmful than beef. Pork may because of the negative charge of the pig blood platelet have a negative effect on the attaining of higher consciousness but the belief that Jesus was teaching cannibalism to His followers as a way to higher consciousness is utterly absurd. Especially when Jesus clearly said the words He spoke were spiritual and the flesh profit a man nothing. God is the bread of life and man partakes of it by embracing His spirit. You are ignorant, barbaric and corrupt, Ludlow.
5/10/2016 1:19:56 AM	The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 63, joined Feb. 2008	When Jesus said that the flesh profits us nothing, He meant INDULGING the flesh profits us nothing. Eating too much and drinking too much are sins, and even going out for an expensive meal is morally neutral---it's not a sin, if we can afford it, but we get no supernatural reward for it. Indulging sexual lusts outside of marriage is always a sin. Jesus made it clear, in the sixth chapter of John, that His Flesh was real food and His Blood real drink. He turns bread and wine into that Body and Blood so that His. Flesh and Blood could be consumed in a palatble way, and so that we could believe on faith. You could say it is curious that Jesus would want to interact with us in this way, but as Erikbenn said in another thread trusting God is more important than understanding Him.
5/10/2016 1:43:31 AM	The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!
followjesusonly Kingman, AZ 73, joined May. 2012	* Ludlow said: Jesus made it clear, in the sixth chapter of John, that His Flesh was real food and His Blood real drink. He turns bread and wine into that Body and Blood so that His. Flesh and Blood could be consumed in a palatble way, and so that we could believe on faith. You could say it is curious that Jesus would want to interact with us in this way, but as Erikbenn said in another thread trusting God is more important than understanding Him. ============================================================================= 900 million Protestants don't agree with your interpretation of scripture, probably because they avail themselves of the Spirit of Truth rather than the ramblings of mere men who declare themselves to be infallible, an attribute of God and God alone. Jesus made it clear in the 23rd chapter of Matthew that you are not to call priests, "Father." You could say it is curious that Jesus would want to interact with us in this way, but as Erikbenn said in another thread trusting God is more important than understanding Him.
5/10/2016 7:56:36 AM	The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!
tnteacher101 Morristown, TN 66, joined Aug. 2010	Quote from ludlowlowell: My chiropractor told me that pork is no more harmful than beef. Low: In that case I am very sad to say that your Chiropractor is severely lacking in wisdom and is, for the most part, ignorant of Yahweh's Word. I very much do my very best to avoid being harsh but your Chiropractor simply leaves me no choice since he crossed the line of showing a lack of good common sense on this specific topic. Steve
5/10/2016 8:11:01 AM	The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!
tnteacher101 Morristown, TN 66, joined Aug. 2010	Quote from ludlowlowell: When Jesus said that the flesh profits us nothing, He meant INDULGING the flesh profits us nothing. Eating too much and drinking too much are sins, and even going out for an expensive meal is morally neutral---it's not a sin, if we can afford it, but we get no supernatural reward for it. Indulging sexual lusts outside of marriage is always a sin. Jesus made it clear, in the sixth chapter of John, that His Flesh was real food and His Blood real drink. He turns bread and wine into that Body and Blood so that His. Flesh and Blood could be consumed in a palatble way, and so that we could believe on faith. You could say it is curious that Jesus would want to interact with us in this way, but as Erikbenn said in another thread trusting God is more important than understanding Him. Low: Your Catholic Church has only said that they thought the bread and wine actually turned into the Flesh and Blood of Yeshua on one occasion and that occasion was way back in the eighth or ninth century. It is my guess that when it was said to happen that it appears to be highly questionable that it actually did happened. I am not sure how many times a year that the Catholic Church observes Mass but to say that the bread and wine turned into the Flesh and Blood one time in close to two thousand years doesn't seem to be a lot to boast about. At that time in history I am sure it was probably more than difficult to do scientific and chemical tests that would prove that the bread and wine actually turned into the Flesh and Blood of Yeshua. I am certainly not saying that it did not happen but it does sound very questionable to say the very least. Steve
5/10/2016 11:47:22 AM	The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 63, joined Feb. 2008	The Church Fathers, all of them I think, taught it. It has been taught in sermons and catechism books. I know it was taught by St. Thomas Aquinas, the Church's greatest theologian, in the thirteenth century. It was defined by the Council of Trent in the sixteenth century, and taught by the Second Vatican Council in the twentieth. Pope John Paul II called the Holy Eucharist "the source and summit of our faith". Catholics have, since the beginning of the Church, gone to churches to kneel and pray to the Holy Eucharist, kept in a receptacle called the tabernacle, that every Catholic church has, all hors of the day and night. When a Catholic is in the hospital a priest or someone will bring them a Communion Wafer. When a Catholic is dying, as part of the so-called last rites, Communion is given. Every spring, May 22 this year I think, we have the feast of Corpus Christi, the feast of the Body of Christ, where in some places a Communion Wafer is placed in a monstrance (hard to describe a monstrance---probably on Wiki they have a picture) and a parade is held (yes, the Texas town Corpus Christi is named after that). Tnteacher, you have no idea of the emphasis or importance Catholics put on the Eucharist, past and present.
5/10/2016 12:39:45 PM	The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!
kb2222 Jacksonville, FL 75, joined Apr. 2011	Ludlow, does the wafer and wine taste like flesh and blood to you? No it does not because it is still a wafer and wine. God is the bread of life and man partakes of it by embracing His spirit NOT by some illusionary cannibalistic ritual.
5/10/2016 12:49:46 PM	The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 63, joined Feb. 2008	When the priest consecrates the Bread and wine at Mass, the SUBSTANCE of the Bread and wine turn into the substance of Jesus' Body and Blood, but the ACCIDENTS, shape, weight, appearance, taste, smell, chemical composition---remain the same. We have to believe it on faith---we have to believe it just because Jesus said so. "My flesh is real food and my blood real drink." --Jesus
5/10/2016 12:59:29 PM	The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!
kb2222 Jacksonville, FL 75, joined Apr. 2011	Quote from ludlowlowell: When the priest consecrates the Bread and wine at Mass, the SUBSTANCE of the Bread and wine turn into the substance of Jesus' Body and Blood, but the ACCIDENTS, shape, weight, appearance, taste, smell, chemical composition---remain the same. We have to believe it on faith---we have to believe it just because Jesus said so. "My flesh is real food and my blood real drink." --Jesus Define "ACCIDENTS." Where is your brain, Ludlow? If the "shape, weight, appearance, taste, smell, chemical composition---remain the same" the substance has not changed. And you are placing your faith on a cannibalistic ritual which is nonsense. To believe that one can become more Christ like via an act of cannibalism is sheer nonsense. God is the bread of life and man partakes of it by embracing His spirit.
5/10/2016 2:08:07 PM	The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 63, joined Feb. 2008	"Substance" and "accidents" are defined in Catholic theology---the writings of Thomas Aquinas may have more detail. How can the Communion Wafer look like one thing and actually be something else? I can't explain is---not sure anybody can, really, though Thomas Aquinas came closer than anyone in history, arguably. We just have to trust Jesus on this. According to the sixth chapter of John many of Jesus' followers quit following Him. "Master, this is a hard saying", they said. Had Jesus meant this in symbolic fashion He would have called them back and explained that.
5/10/2016 2:39:30 PM	The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!
followjesusonly Kingman, AZ 73, joined May. 2012	Quote from ludlowlowell: When the priest consecrates the Bread and wine at Mass, the SUBSTANCE of the Bread and wine turn into the substance of Jesus' Body and Blood, but the ACCIDENTS, shape, weight, appearance, taste, smell, chemical composition---remain the same. We have to believe it on faith---we have to believe it just because Jesus said so. "My flesh is real food and my blood real drink." --Jesus Ludlow made a mistake. The word he wanted or should have used is almost certainly "antecedents" not "accidents." Ludlow is an ignorant man. Quote from kb2222: Define "ACCIDENTS." Where is your brain, Ludlow? If the "shape, weight, appearance, taste, smell, chemical composition---remain the same" the substance has not changed. And you are placing your faith on a cannibalistic ritual which is nonsense. To believe that one can become more Christ like via an act of cannibalism is sheer nonsense. God is the bread of life and man partakes of it by embracing His spirit.
5/10/2016 2:43:05 PM	The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!
followjesusonly Kingman, AZ 73, joined May. 2012	Quote from tnteacher101: Low: Your Catholic Church has only said that they thought the bread and wine actually turned into the Flesh and Blood of Yeshua on one occasion and that occasion was way back in the eighth or ninth century. It is my guess that when it was said to happen that it appears to be highly questionable that it actually did happened. I am not sure how many times a year that the Catholic Church observes Mass but to say that the bread and wine turned into the Flesh and Blood one time in close to two thousand years doesn't seem to be a lot to boast about. At that time in history I am sure it was probably more than difficult to do scientific and chemical tests that would prove that the bread and wine actually turned into the Flesh and Blood of Yeshua. I am certainly not saying that it did not happen but it does sound very questionable to say the very least. Steve They do this ritual of the mass every day, sometimes more than once, in tens of thousands of places around the world. One Googled site says they do 350,000 Catholic Masses a day! Don't you know anything about this sick religion?
5/10/2016 3:29:56 PM	The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!
tnteacher101 Morristown, TN 66, joined Aug. 2010	Quote from ludlowlowell: When the priest consecrates the Bread and wine at Mass, the SUBSTANCE of the Bread and wine turn into the substance of Jesus' Body and Blood, but the ACCIDENTS, shape, weight, appearance, taste, smell, chemical composition---remain the same. We have to believe it on faith---we have to believe it just because Jesus said so. "My flesh is real food and my blood real drink." --Jesus Low: I guess we could all assume we have a major miracle happen every few minutes if the miracle had no visible appearance, cannot be felt, has no shape, cannot smell it, no chemical composition and what ever else that can not be determined. Someone could lose a arm or leg and some Priest could say a miracle has happened that the person has a new arm or leg but if that body part cannot be seen, used or felt it is what I would call a false and fake miracle. It is simply a non-existent miracle. It is my guess that the so called miracle was an "accident" to call it a miracle in the first place. A miracle that is said to happen but doesn't happen is much like what a history teacher at school would sometimes say: "It is as worthless as tits on a boar"! All this "accident"/fake miracles sounds to me to be some type of sorcery or magic spell number that the Catholic Church may be mixed up in. If the first Pope, like some people believe, was indeed Simon Magus, the sorcerer, then just maybe the Catholic Church got their Hocus Pocus Accidents from this same more than shady character named Simon Magus. Things always fit or do not fit and this theory seems to fit perfectly. Steve
5/10/2016 4:48:16 PM	The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!
looptex1 Chatsworth, GA 48, joined Jun. 2008	Quote from ludlowlowell: "Substance" and "accidents" are defined in Catholic theology---the writings of Thomas Aquinas may have more detail. How can the Communion Wafer look like one thing and actually be something else? I can't explain is---not sure anybody can, really, though Thomas Aquinas came closer than anyone in history, arguably. We just have to trust Jesus on this. According to the sixth chapter of John many of Jesus' followers quit following Him. "Master, this is a hard saying", they said. Had Jesus meant this in symbolic fashion He would have called them back and explained that. Why would he call them back and explain it? He never explained anything he said to anyone except his disciple. To them it is not given to know they mysteries, And by the way, you keep saying he said "my flesh is true meat" yes he did say that. But that wafer isn't his flesh and neither does it turn into his flesh
5/10/2016 5:01:23 PM	The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!
ludlowlowell Panama City, FL 63, joined Feb. 2008	"My flesh is real food and my blood real drink." How could Jesus be more specific than that?
5/10/2016 5:56:57 PM	The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!
kb2222 Jacksonville, FL 75, joined Apr. 2011	You want specifics, Ludlow. John 6:32-63 KJV 32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. 34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread. 35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. 36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. 41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. 42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven? 43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. 46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. 47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. 48 I am that bread of life. 49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. 52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? 53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. 58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever. 59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum. 60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? 61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? 62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
5/10/2016 6:48:48 PM	The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!
louie6332 Falkville, AL 74, joined Nov. 2011	Tnt: you say: “Yeshua did not start a Church.” But he said he was: He said to Peter: “Thou art rick, and upon this rock I will build my Church. I give to you the keys to the kingdom of Heaven, whatever you bind on Earth will be bound in Heaven, and whatever you loose on Earth will be loosed in Heaven.” You and other Protestants, caught between a rock and a hard place, claims that he actually said to Peter: “Thou art rock, and upon myself I will build my Church, I give to myself the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven, and whatever I bind on Earth will be bound in Heaven, and whatever I loose on Earth will be loosed in Heaven.” Tnt: you say, concerning the Eucharistic miracles: “At that time in history [when these Eucharistic miracles area reported to have occurred] I am sure it was probably more than difficult to do scientific and chemical tests that would prove that the bread and wine actually turned into the flesh and blood of Yeshua. I am certainly not saying that it did not happen, but it does sound very questionable to say the very least”. This is not what it literally says, and the sentence structure is incoherent this way, but it does put the words of Martin Luther into the mouth of Christ, and that is all that really counts. Two points Tnt: First,these Eucharistic miracles have happened throughout the history of the Church, including in modern times. And second, modern blood and tissue sample typing and DNA tests have been done on this flesh and blood from Eucharistic miracles. The flesh, according to these tests, is human heart tissue, and the blood is human blood. It is ALWAYS the same tissue and blood type, and the DNA matches that of traces of blood found on the Shroud of Turin, the burial shroud of Christ. So these lab tests serve as a check on each other. You cannot just dismiss these things. Some of the flesh and blood has been kept in tabernacles as holy relics for anyone to go see, and has remained incorrupt for hundreds of years. Louie
5/10/2016 7:02:49 PM	The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!
kb2222 Jacksonville, FL 75, joined Apr. 2011	Why don't you support your statements on DNA matches, Louie, and while you are at it tell me why you think Jesus chose Peter?
5/10/2016 7:41:18 PM	The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!
looptex1 Chatsworth, GA 48, joined Jun. 2008	Quote from ludlowlowell: "My flesh is real food and my blood real drink." How could Jesus be more specific than that? finish reading..."my words are spirit" How can he be any more specific than that? The flesh profits nothing But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. NOW IF ANY MAN HAVE NOT THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST, HE IS NONE OF HIS how can it be any more specific than that?
5/10/2016 7:43:41 PM	The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!
looptex1 Chatsworth, GA 48, joined Jun. 2008	Did that sound anything like what christ said? Except ye eat my flesh and drink my blood And Any man that hath not the spirit of christ is none of his. Wow, it really is that simple.
5/10/2016 8:02:27 PM	The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!
looptex1 Chatsworth, GA 48, joined Jun. 2008	Quote from louie6332: Tnt: you say: “Yeshua did not start a Church.” But he said he was: He said to Peter: “Thou art rick, and upon this rock I will build my Church. I give to you the keys to the kingdom of Heaven, whatever you bind on Earth will be bound in Heaven, and whatever you loose on Earth will be loosed in Heaven.” You and other Protestants, caught between a rock and a hard place, claims that he actually said to Peter: “Thou art rock, and upon myself I will build my Church, I give to myself the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven, and whatever I bind on Earth will be bound in Heaven, and whatever I loose on Earth will be loosed in Heaven.” Tnt: you say, concerning the Eucharistic miracles: “At that time in history [when these Eucharistic miracles area reported to have occurred] I am sure it was probably more than difficult to do scientific and chemical tests that would prove that the bread and wine actually turned into the flesh and blood of Yeshua. I am certainly not saying that it did not happen, but it does sound very questionable to say the very least”. This is not what it literally says, and the sentence structure is incoherent this way, but it does put the words of Martin Luther into the mouth of Christ, and that is all that really counts. Two points Tnt: First,these Eucharistic miracles have happened throughout the history of the Church, including in modern times. And second, modern blood and tissue sample typing and DNA tests have been done on this flesh and blood from Eucharistic miracles. The flesh, according to these tests, is human heart tissue, and the blood is human blood. It is ALWAYS the same tissue and blood type, and the DNA matches that of traces of blood found on the Shroud of Turin, the burial shroud of Christ. So these lab tests serve as a check on each other. You cannot just dismiss these things. Some of the flesh and blood has been kept in tabernacles as holy relics for anyone to go see, and has remained incorrupt for hundreds of years. Louie protestants between a rock and a hard place? Really? You claim that "unto thee I will give the keys to the kingdom" was said to Peter and only peter? Really? Are you so ignorant to think that Peter can hold the keys to what's on the inside of another man? Jesus told all his disciples, knock and it shall be opened, seek and ye shall find, ask and it shall be given unto you. What do you think he was speaking of? Riches and vain glory? No He said seek ye first the kingdom of God, There would be no need in seeking get for something someone else has the keys to now would there. But for a man to seek for him self, and by God it be revealed unto him who Jesus is, they to can have and receive the keys to the kingdom that is within themselves. And besides all that, if man tried to set peter or any of the disciples in the highest seat, they would have declined ed for that's what christ taught them. He taught them to be servants not master, to esteem themselves below that of their brothers not above him. We have one king, one ruler, one lord, one master, one father and that is christ jesus. Jesus didn't accept praise and titles while here on earth and he certainly didn't appoint men to stand in his stead when he left. Well I take that back, he did leave a job position for us to fill, it's the position of servant.
5/10/2016 8:42:20 PM	The Doctrine of Transubstantiation is False!
tnteacher101 Morristown, TN 66, joined Aug. 2010	Matthew 16:13-20King James Version (KJV) 13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? 14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. 15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ. Louie: If you will notice in the above verses Yeshua did not call Peter the "Rock". Yahweh/Yeshua is often referred to as the "Rock" as in the following verses: God is my rock. He is a solid foundation. He is an immovable, unshakable, faithful, fortress. In times of trouble God is our source of strength. God is stable and His children run to Him for shelter. God is higher, He is bigger, He is greater, and He provides more protection than every mountain combined. Jesus is the rock where salvation is found. Seek Him, repent, and trust in Him. Psalm 18:1-3 I love you, Lord; you are my strength. The Lord is my rock, my fortress, and my savior; my God is my rock, in whom I find protection. He is my shield, the power that saves me, and my place of safety. I called on the Lord, who is worthy of praise, and he saved me from my enemies. 2 Samuel 22:2 He said: “The LORD is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer; my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge, my shield and the horn of my salvation. He is my stronghold, my refuge and my savior– from violent people you save me. Psalm 71:3 Be my rock of refuge, to which I can always go; give the command to save me, for you are my rock and my fortress. Psalm 62:7-8 My honor and salvation come from God. He is my mighty rock and my protection. People, trust God all the time. Tell him all your problems, because God is our protection. 31:3-4 Yes, you are my Rock and my protection. For the good of your name, lead me and guide me. Save me from the traps my enemy has set. You are my place of safety. Psalm 144:1-3 Of David. Praise be to the LORD my Rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle. He is my loving God and my fortress, my stronghold and my deliverer, my shield, in whom I take refuge, who subdues peoples under me. LORD, what are human beings that you care for them, mere mortals that you think of them? Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he. 1 Samuel 2:2 There is no holy God like the Lord. There is no God but you. There is no Rock like our God. Deuteronomy 32:31 For their rock is not like our Rock, as even our enemies concede. Psalm 18:31 For who is God besides the LORD? And who is the Rock except our God? Psalm 18:46 The LORD lives! Praise to my Rock! May the God of my salvation be exalted! Psalm 28:1-2 To you, LORD, I call; you are my Rock, do not turn a deaf ear to me. For if you remain silent, I will be like those who go down to the pit. Hear my cry for mercy as I call to you for help, as I lift up my hands toward your Most Holy Place. Psalm 31:2 Turn your ear to me, come quickly to my rescue; be my rock of refuge, a strong fortress to save me. Samuel 22:47 “The LORD lives! Praise be to my Rock! Exalted be my God, the Rock, my Savior! Psalm 89:26 He will call out to me, ‘You are my Father, my God, the Rock my Savior.’ Psalm 19:14 May these words of my mouth and this meditation of my heart be pleasing in your sight, LORD, my Rock and my Redeemer. 1 Peter 2:8 And, “He is the stone that makes people stumble, the rock that makes them fall.” They stumble because they do not obey God’s word, and so they meet the fate that was planned for them. Louie: Peter is sometimes referred to as a stone: Peter meaning The name Petra means Rock and symbolizes stability. The name Peter means Stone (or Stone Man as Spiros Zodhiates proposes) and symbolizes instability. Louie: Peter was simply not up to Yeshua. Peter was sometimes referred to as the "stone" but Yeshua was the "Rock". The Stone is the foundation of our faith and Yahweh's Church is made up of "stones". All followers of Yahweh's Laws/Torah and Commands are stones that make up Yahweh's True Church. To say that Peter is our foundation is an attempt to make Peter equal with Yeshua and that simply will not work and will never work. The Catholic Church goes to great lengths to attempt to make themselves important in eyes of men. All they have to do to be great is to follow the Laws/Torah and Commands of Yahweh and they will get to Paradise/Heaven just like all other followers of Yahweh's Way. Steve

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