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7/26/2015 7:02:42 AM WTC truth ATTACKS on Pentagon. Destroying the EVIDENCE against them!  

class5
Over 2,000 Posts (2,742)
Queensland
Australia
52, joined Jan. 2014


Quote from nuffan:
Translation...

I bought the bullshit they fed me...

it is not simply a belief system...it is actually called critical thinking...


Feel free to demonstrate your critical thinking skills at anytime, as I've seen no evidence for such a claim thus far. You are basically ranting and that is of little merit in this environment, but from your side of the debate it's becoming quite fashionable.





[Edited 7/26/2015 7:05:32 AM ]

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7/26/2015 7:19:45 AM WTC truth ATTACKS on Pentagon. Destroying the EVIDENCE against them!  

class5
Over 2,000 Posts (2,742)
Queensland
Australia
52, joined Jan. 2014


Molten aluminium:



This is an image of aluminium window frames being recycled:



The shot from 9/11:



Hmmm....it looks similar to the molten copper below:



Says it all really.



7/26/2015 7:43:06 AM WTC truth ATTACKS on Pentagon. Destroying the EVIDENCE against them!  

class5
Over 2,000 Posts (2,742)
Queensland
Australia
52, joined Jan. 2014


Note the areas labelled 'technical services' in the schematic below:



Now compare the gif in my previous post with this diagram and you will note that the proximity of the Technical Services level to the outflow of molten material, suggesting that these appliance levels were the source of the metal in question.

7/26/2015 7:47:54 AM WTC truth ATTACKS on Pentagon. Destroying the EVIDENCE against them!  

class5
Over 2,000 Posts (2,742)
Queensland
Australia
52, joined Jan. 2014


Actually, this is a better pic for comparison:



Note the severity of the fires.



[Edited 7/26/2015 7:49:06 AM ]

7/26/2015 8:09:42 AM WTC truth ATTACKS on Pentagon. Destroying the EVIDENCE against them!  
aposorichie
Over 2,000 Posts (3,806)
Berwyn, IL
59, joined Jan. 2009


Quote from class5:

Says it all really.



Yes it does.



7/26/2015 8:33:07 AM WTC truth ATTACKS on Pentagon. Destroying the EVIDENCE against them!  

nuffan
Over 2,000 Posts (2,477)
Kennesaw, GA
52, joined Mar. 2014
online now!


Quote from class5:
Feel free to demonstrate your critical thinking skills at anytime, as I've seen no evidence for such a claim thus far. You are basically ranting and that is of little merit in this environment, but from your side of the debate it's becoming quite fashionable.




Well opinions are like a**holes...everybodies got one...

a rant...

whatever...

Those severe fires did not damage all the supports beneath it...it certainly explains why the building collapsed where the damage was...it really does not explain the building falling straight down through it self...


You make it sounds as if people with a dissenting opinion are claiming the building could not collapse without the help of explosives...

it would still collapse...just in a very different manner...



[Edited 7/26/2015 8:33:39 AM ]

7/26/2015 9:39:42 AM WTC truth ATTACKS on Pentagon. Destroying the EVIDENCE against them!  

progrocknic
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (13,043)
Mount Arlington, NJ
31, joined Dec. 2012
online now!


Quote from nuffan:
Well opinions are like a**holes...everybodies got one...

a rant...

whatever...

Those severe fires did not damage all the supports beneath it...it certainly explains why the building collapsed where the damage was...it really does not explain the building falling straight down through it self...


You make it sounds as if people with a dissenting opinion are claiming the building could not collapse without the help of explosives...

it would still collapse...just in a very different manner...


Ever stand on a soda can and have someone flick the outside? No matter where you flick it, the can will crush straight down. It doesn't fall to one side.

7/26/2015 10:09:12 AM WTC truth ATTACKS on Pentagon. Destroying the EVIDENCE against them!  

srv63
Over 1,000 Posts (1,774)
Baytown, TX
52, joined Jul. 2012


Quote from progrocknic:
Ever stand on a soda can and have someone flick the outside? No matter where you flick it, the can will crush straight down. It doesn't fall to one side.


As far as your soda can example, anyone that has ever recycled aluminum by stomping on the empty aluminum cans can attest that you are WRONG thinking the can squashes straight down every time. More times than not, the can squashes sideways

7/26/2015 10:17:31 AM WTC truth ATTACKS on Pentagon. Destroying the EVIDENCE against them!  

progrocknic
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (13,043)
Mount Arlington, NJ
31, joined Dec. 2012
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Quote from srv63:
As far as your soda can example, anyone that has ever recycled aluminum by stomping on the empty aluminum cans can attest that you are WRONG thinking the can squashes straight down every time. More times than not, the can squashes sideways


Stomping on and standing on while flicking are two different things.

7/26/2015 10:35:35 AM WTC truth ATTACKS on Pentagon. Destroying the EVIDENCE against them!  
higgy51
Over 2,000 Posts (3,577)
Navarro, CA
61, joined Nov. 2012


SRV, I am so sorry, but I have NO idea what the hell you are trying to say here.

You have gone on and on and on about us debunking your main man, yet there is NOTHING to debunk, so what are you trying to discuss now?


Quote from srv63:
Look here you side stepping fool,

Just like your sneaky side stepping pal the parrot, you as well side step the PROOF of building 7 being an inside job.Trying to change the subject will not work here either so FAIL


You have no proof it was an inside job, but what has this to do with your Mr Jennings?



Quote from srv63:
As far as your timeline bullshit or explosions possibly being from some boiler, you FAIL shills. Now use that little pea brain of yours and you might see the OBVIOUS reasons why your BULLSHIT does NOT make any sense


I have never said it was from a boiler, I said that they do make an explosive sound.

Are you even aware that there were boilers and a storage of some 12,000 gallons of diesel?

7/26/2015 10:37:01 AM WTC truth ATTACKS on Pentagon. Destroying the EVIDENCE against them!  

nuffan
Over 2,000 Posts (2,477)
Kennesaw, GA
52, joined Mar. 2014
online now!


Quote from progrocknic:
Ever stand on a soda can and have someone flick the outside? No matter where you flick it, the can will crush straight down. It doesn't fall to one side.


If only WTC was a soda can...

7/26/2015 10:38:28 AM WTC truth ATTACKS on Pentagon. Destroying the EVIDENCE against them!  
higgy51
Over 2,000 Posts (3,577)
Navarro, CA
61, joined Nov. 2012


Quote from srv63:
As far as your soda can example, anyone that has ever recycled aluminum by stomping on the empty aluminum cans can attest that you are WRONG thinking the can squashes straight down every time. More times than not, the can squashes sideways


Oh wait, here we have the closest thing to TIN...is this the proof of the fuselage is made of tin?

No, course not, you don't have any proof doe you?

What's next srv...whats next now that we have nothing on your Mr Jennings to debunk? You for some reason think that we have to debunk him somehow, but none of us can see how or why we should even try.

7/26/2015 10:39:49 AM WTC truth ATTACKS on Pentagon. Destroying the EVIDENCE against them!  
higgy51
Over 2,000 Posts (3,577)
Navarro, CA
61, joined Nov. 2012


Quote from nuffan:
If only WTC was a soda can...


Did you research to see if the Towers were constructed of steel reinforced concrete?

You seem to have skipped that by, just like the other Conspiracy Nutcases have.

7/26/2015 10:44:48 AM WTC truth ATTACKS on Pentagon. Destroying the EVIDENCE against them!  

progrocknic
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (13,043)
Mount Arlington, NJ
31, joined Dec. 2012
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Quote from nuffan:
If only WTC was a soda can...


It has nothing to do with BEING a soda can and everything to do with the principles for why the can collapses they way it does. With the way those buildings were constructed, it would have been nearly impossible to get one to fall sideways.

Besides, why would the government care about the towers falling in that fashion? They did want to kill TOO many people? Lol. I mean really, what's the logic there. It doesn't make any sense.

7/26/2015 10:45:59 AM WTC truth ATTACKS on Pentagon. Destroying the EVIDENCE against them!  

naprinciple
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (11,544)
West Plains, MO
46, joined Feb. 2014


Are we comparing the structural integrity of a soda can, designed to hold liquid poison, with buildings designed to withstand plane crashes and fires?



Sophists don't need to be convincing, they only need to give people who want to be fooled, an excuse for not facing reality

7/26/2015 10:54:23 AM WTC truth ATTACKS on Pentagon. Destroying the EVIDENCE against them!  

nuffan
Over 2,000 Posts (2,477)
Kennesaw, GA
52, joined Mar. 2014
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Quote from progrocknic:
It has nothing to do with BEING a soda can and everything to do with the principles for why the can collapses they way it does. With the way those buildings were constructed, it would have been nearly impossible to get one to fall sideways.

Besides, why would the government care about the towers falling in that fashion? They did want to kill TOO many people? Lol. I mean really, what's the logic there. It doesn't make any sense.



Those buildings were built of many reinforced light weight steel column...which also lends to the point that type of design would have sheared the wings...not 4 well placed SUPER COLUMNS...but hundreds of light weight steel reinforced columns...

It was built to resist wind load not gravity load...but even that does NOT explain why it collapsed inward without tipping...

7/26/2015 10:56:16 AM WTC truth ATTACKS on Pentagon. Destroying the EVIDENCE against them!  

nuffan
Over 2,000 Posts (2,477)
Kennesaw, GA
52, joined Mar. 2014
online now!


there are many reasons to not want it to tip...

COLLATERAL PROPERTY DAMAGE FOR ONE...that would cost them money...dead civilians do not cost them anything...

7/26/2015 10:58:02 AM WTC truth ATTACKS on Pentagon. Destroying the EVIDENCE against them!  

progrocknic
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (13,043)
Mount Arlington, NJ
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Physics And structural engineering explains why the towers came down the way they did.

But seriously, why would the government WANT to take them down so neatly? Why would they care? Why would they risk being found out instead of just letting them fall however? They wanted to blow up the buildings and kill people, but not if they building fell sideways and killed MORE people? Seriously, what's the logic here? I don't understand.

7/26/2015 11:00:33 AM WTC truth ATTACKS on Pentagon. Destroying the EVIDENCE against them!  

progrocknic
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (13,043)
Mount Arlington, NJ
31, joined Dec. 2012
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Quote from nuffan:
there are many reasons to not want it to tip...

COLLATERAL PROPERTY DAMAGE FOR ONE...that would cost them money...dead civilians do not cost them anything...


So they were worried about property damage but demolished the two most expensive buildings in the country and a third building just for the heck of it. And, later, demolished more buildings that were too damaged from the collapsing structures anyway, but they didn't want to risk TOO much damage? It makes zero sense.



[Edited 7/26/2015 11:00:55 AM ]

7/26/2015 11:03:57 AM WTC truth ATTACKS on Pentagon. Destroying the EVIDENCE against them!  

naprinciple
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (11,544)
West Plains, MO
46, joined Feb. 2014


Quote from progrocknic:
Physics And structural engineering explains why the towers came down the way they did.

But seriously, why would the government WANT to take them down so neatly? Why would they care? Why would they risk being found out instead of just letting them fall however? They wanted to blow up the buildings and kill people, but not if they building fell sideways and killed MORE people? Seriously, what's the logic here? I don't understand.






Can you point out all the other steel structured skyscrapers that have collapsed due to fire?


Why do you suppose the designers and builders, have not been sued for their failures, since the building were designed to withstand this very occurrence?

7/26/2015 11:05:21 AM WTC truth ATTACKS on Pentagon. Destroying the EVIDENCE against them!  

nuffan
Over 2,000 Posts (2,477)
Kennesaw, GA
52, joined Mar. 2014
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Quote from progrocknic:
Physics And structural engineering explains why the towers came down the way they did.

But seriously, why would the government WANT to take them down so neatly? Why would they care? Why would they risk being found out instead of just letting them fall however? They wanted to blow up the buildings and kill people, but not if they building fell sideways and killed MORE people? Seriously, what's the logic here? I don't understand.



Why do you focus on one single angle like it is some absolute...

Who says they were worried about more people dying...

yet you are just convince that is the only logical reason to want it to come straight down...and because you can not make it fit the way you want to see it then it must not be a possibility...because it does not fit YOUR EXPLANATION of why they would worry about the building tipping 1500 feet above the street...lol

7/26/2015 11:05:43 AM WTC truth ATTACKS on Pentagon. Destroying the EVIDENCE against them!  

naprinciple
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (11,544)
West Plains, MO
46, joined Feb. 2014


Quote from progrocknic:
So they were worried about property damage but demolished the two most expensive buildings in the country and a third building just for the heck of it. And, later, demolished more buildings that were too damaged from the collapsing structures anyway, but they didn't want to risk TOO much damage? It makes zero sense.



You know the Twin Towers were over due for a billion Dollar asbestos removal job, right?

7/26/2015 11:07:45 AM WTC truth ATTACKS on Pentagon. Destroying the EVIDENCE against them!  
higgy51
Over 2,000 Posts (3,577)
Navarro, CA
61, joined Nov. 2012


Quote from progrocknic:
So they were worried about property damage but demolished the two most expensive buildings in the country and a third building just for the heck of it. And, later, demolished more buildings that were too damaged from the collapsing structures anyway, but they didn't want to risk TOO much damage? It makes zero sense.


But to a Conspiracy Nutcase, that is logical.

They were worried about collateral damage, yet blow up the two largest buildings, crash two big planes..and then we have the Pentagon with another plane and another building, yet they were concerned about collateral damage?

Yes, CT LOGIC.

7/26/2015 11:11:31 AM WTC truth ATTACKS on Pentagon. Destroying the EVIDENCE against them!  
higgy51
Over 2,000 Posts (3,577)
Navarro, CA
61, joined Nov. 2012


Quote from nuffan:
Those buildings were built of many reinforced light weight steel column...which also lends to the point that type of design would have sheared the wings...not 4 well placed SUPER COLUMNS...but hundreds of light weight steel reinforced columns...

It was built to resist wind load not gravity load...but even that does NOT explain why it collapsed inward without tipping...


Oh, you seem to have changed your mind....and I think you need to check your claim of "HUNDREDS"

Quote from nuffan:

the columns in World Trade Center 1 and 2 were made of concrete and steel not aluminum and glass...


7/26/2015 11:13:01 AM WTC truth ATTACKS on Pentagon. Destroying the EVIDENCE against them!  

progrocknic
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (13,043)
Mount Arlington, NJ
31, joined Dec. 2012
online now!


Quote from nuffan:
Why do you focus on one single angle like it is some absolute...

Who says they were worried about more people dying...

yet you are just convince that is the only logical reason to want it to come straight down...and because you can not make it fit the way you want to see it then it must not be a possibility...because it does not fit YOUR EXPLANATION of why they would worry about the building tipping 1500 feet above the street...lol


It a not my explanation, it's physics and structural engineerings explanation. I'm not making anything fit. They fell. There's not debate there. They came pretty much straight down. No debate there. A plane hit the building. No debate there. The plane would have weakened the structure. No debate there. Fires would have also weakened the structure. No debate there.

So why would you jump to the conclusion that explosives must have been used? I'm looking for what the motive is. There is no motive in what I believe happened. Just physics. But what would be the purpose of preventing the buildings from tipping sideways? They would know that a demolition of two buildings that size would cause massive amounts of collateral damage to the surrounding buildings. So there isn't much real estate to be saved. So why risk exposing yourself? Why risk someone finding evidence of a controlled demolition? It doesn't make any sense.

7/26/2015 11:15:04 AM WTC truth ATTACKS on Pentagon. Destroying the EVIDENCE against them!  

nuffan
Over 2,000 Posts (2,477)
Kennesaw, GA
52, joined Mar. 2014
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Quote from progrocknic:
So they were worried about property damage but demolished the two most expensive buildings in the country and a third building just for the heck of it. And, later, demolished more buildings that were too damaged from the collapsing structures anyway, but they didn't want to risk TOO much damage? It makes zero sense.


Why does it make ZERO sense?

I mean I guess they could have ran out on to the white house lawn with a paper lunch bags...blew air into them and popped them...but that probably would not have riled us up enough to go to war and spend money the way we did...

If this was a inside job only thing they care about is MONEY...

Achieving a result while keep the cost down...

I get ya why risk being exposed...

Then again you underestimate their GREED I think....lol


But you keep going off down these tangents...

I am simply saying nothing to date has explained why the building collapsed inward...

It very well could be a terror attack with no government involvement...

I DO NOT KNOW....

I just know we need an explanation as to why the building collapsed inward...

and I really do not think that is too much to ask for...

And yes...we have people who have said it did because of this (whatever this is)...we also have people that dispute that...

We also had people tell us JFK was killed by a lone shooter...scientist that explained how a bullet changed trajectory so many times...

We allow them to seal all evidence...

WHY?

7/26/2015 11:23:38 AM WTC truth ATTACKS on Pentagon. Destroying the EVIDENCE against them!  
higgy51
Over 2,000 Posts (3,577)
Navarro, CA
61, joined Nov. 2012


Quote from nuffan:

I just know we need an explanation as to why the building collapsed inward...




Weight bearing steel posts were weakened and warped by intense heat, they bend under the heat, the wright that they are holding becomes too much, ergo they give way and collapse.

I find it harder to explain it simpler to be honest with you.

7/26/2015 11:26:33 AM WTC truth ATTACKS on Pentagon. Destroying the EVIDENCE against them!  

naprinciple
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (11,544)
West Plains, MO
46, joined Feb. 2014


Quote from progrocknic:
It a not my explanation, it's physics and structural engineerings explanation. I'm not making anything fit. They fell. There's not debate there. They came pretty much straight down. No debate there. A plane hit the building. No debate there. The plane would have weakened the structure. No debate there. Fires would have also weakened the structure. No debate there.

So why would you jump to the conclusion that explosives must have been used? I'm looking for what the motive is. There is no motive in what I believe happened. Just physics. But what would be the purpose of preventing the buildings from tipping sideways? They would know that a demolition of two buildings that size would cause massive amounts of collateral damage to the surrounding buildings. So there isn't much real estate to be saved. So why risk exposing yourself? Why risk someone finding evidence of a controlled demolition? It doesn't make any sense.




Just saying "No debate there" doesn't make it so!

7/26/2015 11:29:06 AM WTC truth ATTACKS on Pentagon. Destroying the EVIDENCE against them!  

nuffan
Over 2,000 Posts (2,477)
Kennesaw, GA
52, joined Mar. 2014
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One building as impacted much lower in the structure...

YET both buildings collapsed the same way...

People have questioned that as well...

And it sounds like a question that should be considered...

the building hit lower has a much more viable chance at collapsing inward...the more weight above the better that argument can get...

the building that was hit near the top...not so much...

And again because of the redundancy of all the smaller lighter columns...again built for wind load...the notion that as the structure became stressed and heated due to the number of them they would not be equally damaged...therefore the load would not continue to be equally distributed...which is key in the one argument I saw linked...and it is not an off the wall hypothesis...it may even have merit to the first tower that fell the one hit much lower...that same argument starts to less merit on the one that was hit near the top of the tower...

again I am not trying to represent any version of facts...just questioning some of the ones put forward...

I am not trying to claim this was an inside job by the elite...but it could have been...it is pretty certain they knew a LOT more than the American public was told that day...

I am just not able to reconcile the way the collapsed...that is all...and I have listened to arguments that make a good case of why it would not have collapsed inward...

7/26/2015 11:34:04 AM WTC truth ATTACKS on Pentagon. Destroying the EVIDENCE against them!  

nuffan
Over 2,000 Posts (2,477)
Kennesaw, GA
52, joined Mar. 2014
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Quote from higgy51:
Weight bearing steel posts were weakened and warped by intense heat, they bend under the heat, the wright that they are holding becomes too much, ergo they give way and collapse.

I find it harder to explain it simpler to be honest with you.



and as they start to fall and meet resistance of steel post that were not warped by heat? why would they not tip? where there is nothing to resist? falling through the undamaged supports well below the point of impact.

or are we back to the soda can analogy?

7/26/2015 12:00:42 PM WTC truth ATTACKS on Pentagon. Destroying the EVIDENCE against them!  
higgy51
Over 2,000 Posts (3,577)
Navarro, CA
61, joined Nov. 2012


Quote from nuffan:
and as they start to fall and meet resistance of steel post that were not warped by heat? why would they not tip? where there is nothing to resist? falling through the undamaged supports well below the point of impact.

or are we back to the soda can analogy?


Ever heard of the analogy of "The Straw That Broke The Camels Back"?


Nearly every large building has a redundant design that allows for loss of one primary structural member, such as a column. However, when multiple members fail, the shifting loads eventually overstress the adjacent members and the collapse occurs like a row of dominoes falling down.

The perimeter tube design of the WTC was highly redundant. It survived the loss of several exterior columns due to aircraft impact, but the ensuing fire led to other steel failures. Many structural engineers believe that the weak points—the limiting factors on design allowables—were the angle clips that held the floor joists between the columns on the perimeter wall and the core structure (see Figure 5). With a 700 Pa floor design allowable, each floor should have been able to support approximately 1,300 t beyond its own weight. The total weight of each tower was about 500,000 t.

As the joists on one or two of the most heavily burned floors gave way and the outer box columns began to bow outward, the floors above them also fell. The floor below (with its 1,300 t design capacity) could not support the roughly 45,000 t of ten floors (or more) above crashing down on these angle clips. This started the domino effect that caused the buildings to collapse within ten seconds, hitting bottom with an estimated speed of 200 km per hour. If it had been free fall, with no restraint, the collapse would have only taken eight seconds and would have impacted at 300 km/h.1 It has been suggested that it was fortunate that the WTC did not tip over onto other buildings surrounding the area. There are several points that should be made. First, the building is not solid; it is 95 percent air and, hence, can implode onto itself. Second, there is no lateral load, even the impact of a speeding aircraft, which is sufficient to move the center of gravity one hundred feet to the side such that it is not within the base footprint of the structure. Third, given the near free-fall collapse, there was insufficient time for portions to attain significant lateral velocity. To summarize all of these points, a 500,000 t structure has too much inertia to fall in any direction other than nearly straight down.


7/26/2015 2:34:05 PM WTC truth ATTACKS on Pentagon. Destroying the EVIDENCE against them!  

srv63
Over 1,000 Posts (1,774)
Baytown, TX
52, joined Jul. 2012


Quote from higgy51:
SRV, I am so sorry, but I have NO idea what the hell you are trying to say here.

You have gone on and on and on about us debunking your main man, yet there is NOTHING to debunk, so what are you trying to discuss now?


Quote from srv63:
Look here you side stepping fool,

Just like your sneaky side stepping pal the parrot, you as well side step the PROOF of building 7 being an inside job.Trying to change the subject will not work here either so FAIL


You have no proof it was an inside job, but what has this to do with your Mr Jennings?



Quote from srv63:
As far as your timeline bullshit or explosions possibly being from some boiler, you FAIL shills. Now use that little pea brain of yours and you might see the OBVIOUS reasons why your BULLSHIT does NOT make any sense


I have never said it was from a boiler, I said that they do make an explosive sound.

Are you even aware that there were boilers and a storage of some 12,000 gallons of diesel?


And your going to tell me now that the boiler was what exploded multiple times and the boiler is the cause of the stairs exploding out from underneath Mr Jennings feet as well? Hahahahaha

7/26/2015 2:57:12 PM WTC truth ATTACKS on Pentagon. Destroying the EVIDENCE against them!  

nuffan
Over 2,000 Posts (2,477)
Kennesaw, GA
52, joined Mar. 2014
online now!


Quote from higgy51:
Ever heard of the analogy of "The Straw That Broke The Camels Back"?


Nearly every large building has a redundant design that allows for loss of one primary structural member, such as a column. However, when multiple members fail, the shifting loads eventually overstress the adjacent members and the collapse occurs like a row of dominoes falling down.

The perimeter tube design of the WTC was highly redundant. It survived the loss of several exterior columns due to aircraft impact, but the ensuing fire led to other steel failures. Many structural engineers believe that the weak points—the limiting factors on design allowables—were the angle clips that held the floor joists between the columns on the perimeter wall and the core structure (see Figure 5). With a 700 Pa floor design allowable, each floor should have been able to support approximately 1,300 t beyond its own weight. The total weight of each tower was about 500,000 t.

As the joists on one or two of the most heavily burned floors gave way and the outer box columns began to bow outward, the floors above them also fell. The floor below (with its 1,300 t design capacity) could not support the roughly 45,000 t of ten floors (or more) above crashing down on these angle clips. This started the domino effect that caused the buildings to collapse within ten seconds, hitting bottom with an estimated speed of 200 km per hour. If it had been free fall, with no restraint, the collapse would have only taken eight seconds and would have impacted at 300 km/h.1 It has been suggested that it was fortunate that the WTC did not tip over onto other buildings surrounding the area. There are several points that should be made. First, the building is not solid; it is 95 percent air and, hence, can implode onto itself. Second, there is no lateral load, even the impact of a speeding aircraft, which is sufficient to move the center of gravity one hundred feet to the side such that it is not within the base footprint of the structure. Third, given the near free-fall collapse, there was insufficient time for portions to attain significant lateral velocity. To summarize all of these points, a 500,000 t structure has too much inertia to fall in any direction other than nearly straight down.




so we are back to the beer can analogy...

Because these two statements are in your response...

500,000 t is the weight of the entire tower.

and

so a 500,000 t structure has too much enertia...

which means

if 500,000 t was load bearing above the damage this argument might have some merit...

but all the weight was not above the damage...and as the weight above the damage started to fall it met the resistance of the supports below...yet continues to fall straight through that resistance...so again no real explanation of why it did not tip...

As I already stated I realize the building was built to withstand wind load and not gravity load...but that does not explain why the structure fell straight away...

still seems to defy physics...

7/26/2015 3:03:03 PM WTC truth ATTACKS on Pentagon. Destroying the EVIDENCE against them!  
higgy51
Over 2,000 Posts (3,577)
Navarro, CA
61, joined Nov. 2012


Quote from srv63:And your going to tell me now that the boiler was what exploded multiple times and the boiler is the cause of the stairs exploding out from underneath Mr Jennings feet as well?

**************************************************************

He said he HEARD explosions, he never saw them, he only heard them and they could have come from anything and anywhere.

There were generators in the buildings, there were diesel oil storage tanks and hell knows what else that could have caused the explosions. Lots of things explode when hit by fire.

When are you going to show us your proof or cite your source of the tin fuselage...or are you just going to ignore it and hope it will go away?

Tell you what, don't bother, we know you can't and ergo, you are debunked, again.

7/26/2015 3:11:45 PM WTC truth ATTACKS on Pentagon. Destroying the EVIDENCE against them!  
higgy51
Over 2,000 Posts (3,577)
Navarro, CA
61, joined Nov. 2012


Quote from nuffan:

so we are back to the beer can analogy...


**********************************************************

You read things so differently to what I do.


"As the joists on one or two of the most heavily burned floors gave way and the outer box columns began to bow outward, the floors above them also fell. The floor below (with its 1,300 t design capacity) could not support the roughly 45,000 t of ten floors (or more) above crashing down on these angle clips. This started the domino effect that caused the buildings to collapse within ten seconds, hitting bottom with an estimated speed of 200 km per hour."

One floor can hold 1,300 tonne. 10 floors falling down at once, 13,000 tonne, that floor below hasn't got a hope in hell, especially when they were falling at a rapid speed.

7/26/2015 3:55:36 PM WTC truth ATTACKS on Pentagon. Destroying the EVIDENCE against them!  

nuffan
Over 2,000 Posts (2,477)
Kennesaw, GA
52, joined Mar. 2014
online now!


Physics also considers the opposing mass...

so the building that got hit much lower...this argument begins to have some merit...

as the mass would very quickly become greater than the mass below...because the initial load was exponentially larger...

again the second building that was hit a lot closer to the top of the building...not so much...

7/26/2015 4:58:16 PM WTC truth ATTACKS on Pentagon. Destroying the EVIDENCE against them!  

class5
Over 2,000 Posts (2,742)
Queensland
Australia
52, joined Jan. 2014


Quote from nuffan:
Well opinions are like a**holes...everybodies got one...

a rant...

whatever...


Well, all you've done is air your suspicions without evidence. Anyone can do that, and this thread is full of such BS from 9/11 truth.

Those severe fires did not damage all the supports beneath it...it certainly explains why the building collapsed where the damage was...it really does not explain the building falling straight down through it self...


Why should that require explanation? Have you not read the Bazant Paper?


You make it sounds as if people with a dissenting opinion are claiming the building could not collapse without the help of explosives...


Controlled demolition is the usual cited explanation from 9/11 truth. If you have another I'm all ears.

it would still collapse...just in a very different manner...


And no explanation provided...just unsubstantiated opinion.



7/26/2015 5:00:30 PM WTC truth ATTACKS on Pentagon. Destroying the EVIDENCE against them!  

class5
Over 2,000 Posts (2,742)
Queensland
Australia
52, joined Jan. 2014


Quote from nuffan:
there are many reasons to not want it to tip...

COLLATERAL PROPERTY DAMAGE FOR ONE...that would cost them money...dead civilians do not cost them anything...


And how did THEY™ manage to pull this off in your expert opinion?

7/26/2015 5:08:38 PM WTC truth ATTACKS on Pentagon. Destroying the EVIDENCE against them!  

class5
Over 2,000 Posts (2,742)
Queensland
Australia
52, joined Jan. 2014


Quote from nuffan:
Physics also considers the opposing mass...

so the building that got hit much lower...this argument begins to have some merit...

as the mass would very quickly become greater than the mass below...because the initial load was exponentially larger...

again the second building that was hit a lot closer to the top of the building...not so much...


You are failing to take into account the design of the building.

Here is the Bazant paper:

http://www.civil.northwestern.edu/people/bazant/PDFs/Papers/00%20WTC%20Collapse%20-%20What%20Did%20&%20Did%20Not%20Cause%20It.pdf

That is a good start, then move on to Skeptic sites like ISF and Metabunk for further clarity. It's all out there if you look for it, and there is a wealth of material on the subject that is not coloured by truther ignorance.



[Edited 7/26/2015 5:09:04 PM ]

7/26/2015 5:17:03 PM WTC truth ATTACKS on Pentagon. Destroying the EVIDENCE against them!  

tragicparrot
Over 1,000 Posts (1,848)
Painesville, OH
57, joined Mar. 2014


Quote from nuffan:
Physics also considers the opposing mass...

so the building that got hit much lower...this argument begins to have some merit...

as the mass would very quickly become greater than the mass below...because the initial load was exponentially larger...

again the second building that was hit a lot closer to the top of the building...not so much...


Both WTC 1 and 2 were mostly supported by central columns and not their outer walls. Thus, when the center columns failed, they fell straight down since that was their main support. Had there been demolition charges planted anywhere in or around these structures, the audio aspect would have been far more evident than the sound of floors having collapsed upon each other. So far, i've yet to locate any sufficient audio evidence, video evidence, or physical evidence explosives were utilized as a method to destroy any of the WTC's.

7/26/2015 5:22:42 PM WTC truth ATTACKS on Pentagon. Destroying the EVIDENCE against them!  

class5
Over 2,000 Posts (2,742)
Queensland
Australia
52, joined Jan. 2014


Quote from tragicparrot:
Both WTC 1 and 2 were mostly supported by central columns and not their outer walls. Thus, when the center columns failed, they fell straight down since that was their main support. Had there been demolition charges planted anywhere in or around these structures, the audio aspect would have been far more evident than the sound of floors having collapsed upon each other. So far, i've yet to locate any sufficient audio evidence, video evidence, or physical evidence explosives were utilized as a method to destroy any of the WTC's.


We can see the centre column's failing in the footage that shows the hat-truss supporting the antennae collapsing just before the outer shell.

I have to say that it is refreshing to discuss this subject with Nuffan, as he sticks to the subject at hand.



[Edited 7/26/2015 5:24:03 PM ]

7/26/2015 5:47:01 PM WTC truth ATTACKS on Pentagon. Destroying the EVIDENCE against them!  

tragicparrot
Over 1,000 Posts (1,848)
Painesville, OH
57, joined Mar. 2014


Quote from class5:
We can see the centre column's failing in the footage that shows the hat-truss supporting the antennae collapsing just before the outer shell.

I have to say that it is refreshing to discuss this subject with Nuffan, as he sticks to the subject at hand.


I agree, and not be bombarded with numerous insults and other such condescending remarks that are in no way supporting a claim.

As per both towers initial collapse, it is well noted that neither one started out without at least some tilting effect. Whats unlikely to occur, is the tops of either tower to simply topple off and literally just fall to the ground.

7/26/2015 6:04:13 PM WTC truth ATTACKS on Pentagon. Destroying the EVIDENCE against them!  

class5
Over 2,000 Posts (2,742)
Queensland
Australia
52, joined Jan. 2014


Quote from tragicparrot:
I agree, and not be bombarded with numerous insults and other such condescending remarks that are in no way supporting a claim.

As per both towers initial collapse, it is well noted that neither one started out without at least some tilting effect. Whats unlikely to occur, is the tops of either tower to simply topple off and literally just fall to the ground.


Agreed, that is 'Road Runner Cartoon' physics to expect such a mass to merely topple. Although there are problems in the Bazant paper, he explains how the mass collapsed adequately.

7/26/2015 6:18:15 PM WTC truth ATTACKS on Pentagon. Destroying the EVIDENCE against them!  

nuffan
Over 2,000 Posts (2,477)
Kennesaw, GA
52, joined Mar. 2014
online now!


Quote from class5: And how did THEY™ manage to pull this off in your expert opinion?

that was in response to someone else who seemed convinced the only reason that it would be a controlled demolition would be to save lives...and it just made no sense for these people to try and save lives...

I was arguing that was not the only reason...

7/26/2015 6:52:29 PM WTC truth ATTACKS on Pentagon. Destroying the EVIDENCE against them!  

class5
Over 2,000 Posts (2,742)
Queensland
Australia
52, joined Jan. 2014


Quote from nuffan:
Quote from class5: And how did THEY™ manage to pull this off in your expert opinion?

that was in response to someone else who seemed convinced the only reason that it would be a controlled demolition would be to save lives...and it just made no sense for these people to try and save lives...

I was arguing that was not the only reason...


I was actually referring to your point about THEM™ not wanting it to tip, so I was curious as to how they would direct the mass, as that would be quite an engineering feat especially amid the chaos of fires and uncontrollable impact damage.

Sorry, my mistake. Don't worry, much of what 9/11 truth espouses doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense to stage the whole farce as related by 9/11 truth. The whole 'false flag' story was completely unnecessary in light of the escalation of AQ's campaign against the US over the previous eight years. The Cole bombing was all the pretext needed, and 9/11 was the final straw.

But 9/11 truth don't 'do' history.



[Edited 7/26/2015 6:54:53 PM ]

7/26/2015 7:36:27 PM WTC truth ATTACKS on Pentagon. Destroying the EVIDENCE against them!  

louie6332
Over 2,000 Posts (3,255)
Falkville, AL
73, joined Nov. 2011


Higgy, oh ye faceless, Godless, Liberal, you say: “To summarize all of these points, a 500,000 t structure has too much inertia to fall in any direction other than nearly straight down.” I see, what you are saying, falling buildings tend to fall straight down and not tip over, and that it is a huge waste of time and money to hire demolition experts and engineers to make a building fall straight down. Higgy, you’re a joke. Do trees, which have a lot of inertia, naturally fall straight down into a pile of sawdust, or do they fall over?

Louie

7/26/2015 7:42:32 PM WTC truth ATTACKS on Pentagon. Destroying the EVIDENCE against them!  

louie6332
Over 2,000 Posts (3,255)
Falkville, AL
73, joined Nov. 2011


Class, 9-11 had two objectives, the first was to get the American people behind their planned war in the Middle East, and the second was to “justify” the passing of unconstitutional laws to suppress constitutional rights such as the right to bear arms. The target was the Middle East and America itself.

Louie

7/26/2015 7:48:29 PM WTC truth ATTACKS on Pentagon. Destroying the EVIDENCE against them!  

progrocknic
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (13,043)
Mount Arlington, NJ
31, joined Dec. 2012
online now!


Quote from louie6332:
Class, 9-11 had two objectives, the first was to get the American people behind their planned war in the Middle East, and the second was to “justify” the passing of unconstitutional laws to suppress constitutional rights such as the right to bear arms. The target was the Middle East and America itself.

Louie


I think your memory is suffering. We went to war in Afghanistan after 9/11, not the middle east. All we needed to justify war in Iraq was three letters. WMD. Seems odd to need a massive conspiracy just to justify war in Afghanistan when all it took to invade Iraq was the mention of WMD's. And since 9/11, more Americans own guns now then ever before. So it kind of seems like a huge waste of a conspiracy.

7/26/2015 7:51:19 PM WTC truth ATTACKS on Pentagon. Destroying the EVIDENCE against them!  

tragicparrot
Over 1,000 Posts (1,848)
Painesville, OH
57, joined Mar. 2014


Quote from louie6332:
Higgy, oh ye faceless, Godless, Liberal, you say: “To summarize all of these points, a 500,000 t structure has too much inertia to fall in any direction other than nearly straight down.” I see, what you are saying, falling buildings tend to fall straight down and not tip over, and that it is a huge waste of time and money to hire demolition experts and engineers to make a building fall straight down. Higgy, you’re a joke. Do trees, which have a lot of inertia, naturally fall straight down into a pile of sawdust, or do they fall over?

Louie


Louie. Comparing a solid tree to a mostly hollow building structure is about the most ridiculous thing i've ever heard of. These are the sort of comments that lead me to believe your better off being ignored. Seriously.

7/26/2015 7:57:38 PM WTC truth ATTACKS on Pentagon. Destroying the EVIDENCE against them!  

nuffan
Over 2,000 Posts (2,477)
Kennesaw, GA
52, joined Mar. 2014
online now!


Quote from progrocknic: I think your memory is suffering. We went to war in Afghanistan after 9/11, not the middle east. All we needed to justify war in Iraq was three letters. WMD. Seems odd to need a massive conspiracy just to justify war in Afghanistan when all it took to invade Iraq was the mention of WMD's. And since 9/11, more Americans own guns now then ever before. So it kind of seems like a huge waste of a conspiracy.


Afghanistan is in the middle east GENIUS....LMAO


I can agree Louie has some missing cheese from his cracker...

but you do not do yourself any favors with statements like that...lol

7/26/2015 7:57:39 PM WTC truth ATTACKS on Pentagon. Destroying the EVIDENCE against them!  

class5
Over 2,000 Posts (2,742)
Queensland
Australia
52, joined Jan. 2014


Quote from louie6332:
Class, 9-11 had two objectives, the first was to get the American people behind their planned war in the Middle East, and the second was to “justify” the passing of unconstitutional laws to suppress constitutional rights such as the right to bear arms. The target was the Middle East and America itself.

Louie


That only works if one adopts an irrational explanation for the causality. You have automatically jumped to the irrational conclusion and ignored the rational. Confusion over causation is endemic among 9/11 truth.

a) The pretext you imagine wasn't required owing to the Yemen bombing of the USS Cole between administrations.

b) The passing of laws was response to the attacks and you have shifted the causation to the reason for the attacks without evidence. Excuse me if I dismiss it without further comment.

c) How did 9/11 influence the anti-gun movement? Don't you think the mass shootings are behind that movement? There is no connection to 9/11. Just silly.



7/26/2015 8:01:45 PM WTC truth ATTACKS on Pentagon. Destroying the EVIDENCE against them!  

progrocknic
Over 10,000 Posts!!! (13,043)
Mount Arlington, NJ
31, joined Dec. 2012
online now!


Quote from nuffan:
Quote from progrocknic: I think your memory is suffering. We went to war in Afghanistan after 9/11, not the middle east. All we needed to justify war in Iraq was three letters. WMD. Seems odd to need a massive conspiracy just to justify war in Afghanistan when all it took to invade Iraq was the mention of WMD's. And since 9/11, more Americans own guns now then ever before. So it kind of seems like a huge waste of a conspiracy.


Afghanistan is in the middle east GENIUS....LMAO


I can agree Louie has some missing cheese from his cracker...

but you do not do yourself any favors with statements like that...lol


The middle east is a vague term and Afghanistan is closer to being south Asian than middle eastern.

7/26/2015 8:02:16 PM WTC truth ATTACKS on Pentagon. Destroying the EVIDENCE against them!  

class5
Over 2,000 Posts (2,742)
Queensland
Australia
52, joined Jan. 2014


Quote from nuffan:
Afghanistan is in the middle east GENIUS....LMAO



That depends on which map one views. Usually, the ME takes in Turkey, Palestine, Jordan, Egypt, Iraq, Syria and Iran. Others group Afghanistan with the Indian sub-continent. However, I've seen one map that includes North Africa, and another that includes Pakistan and Afghanistan.

7/26/2015 8:17:33 PM WTC truth ATTACKS on Pentagon. Destroying the EVIDENCE against them!  

nuffan
Over 2,000 Posts (2,477)
Kennesaw, GA
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Quote from class5: That depends on which map one views. Usually, the ME takes in Turkey, Palestine, Jordan, Egypt, Iraq, Syria and Iran. Others group Afghanistan with the Indian sub-continent. However, I've seen one map that includes North Africa, and another that includes Pakistan and Afghanistan.

Most when considering the global composition...

Use MIDDLE EAST and FAR EAST when talking about that larger geographical area...

Afghanistan as a general rule is considered MIDDLE EAST...

When we funded them in the 1980's against the Russians it was called the middle east...

You know when we created Osama Bin Laden and his regime...

7/26/2015 8:38:05 PM WTC truth ATTACKS on Pentagon. Destroying the EVIDENCE against them!  

class5
Over 2,000 Posts (2,742)
Queensland
Australia
52, joined Jan. 2014


Quote from nuffan:
Quote from class5: That depends on which map one views. Usually, the ME takes in Turkey, Palestine, Jordan, Egypt, Iraq, Syria and Iran. Others group Afghanistan with the Indian sub-continent. However, I've seen one map that includes North Africa, and another that includes Pakistan and Afghanistan.

Most when considering the global composition...

Use MIDDLE EAST and FAR EAST when talking about that larger geographical area...

Afghanistan as a general rule is considered MIDDLE EAST...

When we funded them in the 1980's against the Russians it was called the middle east...


I don't agree that Afghanistan is in the ME, nor is North Africa as some believe. To me, it is in the region of the sub continent, as portrayed on old BE maps. You omitted the Indian sub continent in your categories, as I was taught in school.

a)The Middle East (Latin: Orientis)

b)The Sub Continent: (Afghanistan, Pakistan, India and Bangladesh).

c)The Far East: Burma (Myanmar) eastward to Japan.

You know when we created Osama Bin Laden and his regime.


Nice try at slipping that lie by. UBL was a member of the Mujahedeen which received some support from the CIA during the war with the USSR in the eighties, but that is the extent of CIA involvement and I suspect you actually know that. The meme that the CIA created AQ is a gross exaggeration.

7/26/2015 8:46:37 PM WTC truth ATTACKS on Pentagon. Destroying the EVIDENCE against them!  

class5
Over 2,000 Posts (2,742)
Queensland
Australia
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Quote from louie6332:
Higgy, oh ye faceless, Godless, Liberal,


What year is it?



7/26/2015 9:05:33 PM WTC truth ATTACKS on Pentagon. Destroying the EVIDENCE against them!  

nuffan
Over 2,000 Posts (2,477)
Kennesaw, GA
52, joined Mar. 2014
online now!


Quote from class5:
Nice try at slipping that lie by. UBL was a member of the Mujahedeen which received some support from the CIA during the war with the USSR in the eighties, but that is the extent of CIA involvement and I suspect you actually know that. The meme that the CIA created AQ is a gross exaggeration.



touche...CREATED was a very poor choice of words on my part...

7/26/2015 10:51:53 PM WTC truth ATTACKS on Pentagon. Destroying the EVIDENCE against them!  

srv63
Over 1,000 Posts (1,774)
Baytown, TX
52, joined Jul. 2012


Quote from higgy51:
Quote from srv63:And your going to tell me now that the boiler was what exploded multiple times and the boiler is the cause of the stairs exploding out from underneath Mr Jennings feet as well?

**************************************************************

He said he HEARD explosions, he never saw them, he only heard them and they could have come from anything and anywhere.

There were generators in the buildings, there were diesel oil storage tanks and hell knows what else that could have caused the explosions. Lots of things explode when hit by fire.

When are you going to show us your proof or cite your source of the tin fuselage...or are you just going to ignore it and hope it will go away?

Tell you what, don't bother, we know you can't and ergo, you are debunked, again.


So what your saying is Mr Barry Jennings tho he had a stairwell blown out from underneath his feet, he might have just "heard" that explosion as well? Your an idiot just like your puppet masters that thought they could pull this whole hoax off without a hitch

7/26/2015 11:00:37 PM WTC truth ATTACKS on Pentagon. Destroying the EVIDENCE against them!  

srv63
Over 1,000 Posts (1,774)
Baytown, TX
52, joined Jul. 2012


Quote from tragicparrot:
Both WTC 1 and 2 were mostly supported by central columns and not their outer walls. Thus, when the center columns failed, they fell straight down since that was their main support. Had there been demolition charges planted anywhere in or around these structures, the audio aspect would have been far more evident than the sound of floors having collapsed upon each other. So far, i've yet to locate any sufficient audio evidence, video evidence, or physical evidence explosives were utilized as a method to destroy any of the WTC's.


Hey Parrot, how about you tell us the width and depth as well as the THICKNESS
of the 47 main center support beams at the center of each tower

7/26/2015 11:13:34 PM WTC truth ATTACKS on Pentagon. Destroying the EVIDENCE against them!  

srv63
Over 1,000 Posts (1,774)
Baytown, TX
52, joined Jul. 2012


Quote from progrocknic:
I think your memory is suffering. We went to war in Afghanistan after 9/11, not the middle east. All we needed to justify war in Iraq was three letters. WMD. Seems odd to need a massive conspiracy just to justify war in Afghanistan when all it took to invade Iraq was the mention of WMD's. And since 9/11, more Americans own guns now then ever before. So it kind of seems like a huge waste of a conspiracy.


Louies right on the money and you shill, need to go back to school because you have no clue what the hell your talking about. Btw, our idiot troops invaded iraq BEFORE invading AFGHANISTAN. And why do more americans now own guns than before 9/11? If it was up to the kenya born spear chunker in the casa blanka , none of us would have guns to fight the pieces of shit but due to 9/11, NOONE trusts the evil greedy jews in government and that is why they have STOCKPILED and getting ready for ARMAGEDDON.